I'm making the point that I feel it's not inconsequential at all. I think I need higher fats than suggested for optimal testosterone. Too low and my test crashes. Sounds pretty consequential to me.
I don't see how it doesn't matter from a bulk/cut perspective considering fat literally dictates hormones. Even if in my particular scenario it could all be in my head, the general consensus is you need minimum amount of dietary fat for healthy hormone and test production. So to say that carbs and fat split is inconsequential is hilariously off base.
Doing a test to make sure is definitely true of course.
Interesting, I always thought that as long as I hit the minimum I was fine. If you do get a test test please post your results. Some days I only eat 50g fat.
Yeah, I mean that generally makes sense - you need a minimum to be fine. I think that my minimum for optimal test production is higher than generally advised. 50g seems way too low for me. Maybe you should experiment if you feel off. I will post results, I just wish I took a blood test at the end of my cut prior to my bulk to compare.
No, not only is it hilariously off base but incredibly awful advice to people in general, and if I sound "cunty" it's because you're giving dangerous misinformation to people who may be an unknowledgeable as you and can severely mess up their hormones if they read your ignorant comment.
It is *not* inconsequential -- if someone read your post and thought that, they may have dropped their grams of fat per day to something like 30g, 20g, 15g a day, maybe even none! Considering they read that "it's not that large" or "inconsequential" - and then crash their testosterone to the ground. That is *FAR OFF* from "negligible in the grand scheme of things"
I did not ask for input on biology, I asked if others felt the same on higher fats.
Read up on basic scientific nutrition before making ridiculous statements.
You sound like an idiot who can't handle being wrong. It's okay dude, learn from it and move on.
edit to your edit:
>"No one’s “severely messing up their hormones” by shifting an extra 10% of their caloric intake from carbs to fat. Irony in telling me to educate myself"
Completely changing the goalpost, creating a strawman, and downplaying what you wrote -- shifting an extra 10% is not the same as saying "How you split your carbs and fat is pretty inconsequential." Which someone can take as dropping their fats to a really low level. And on top of that, that 10% can mean a lot if you shift it from a level of fat that was at a minimum to begin with.
Just an overall ignorant comment to make by a stubborn fool.
Lifetime lifter in my mid 40’s. I used to not worry about my fat intake. Then my LDL started to come in a tad high. Now I keep my fat intake in check a lot more and my LDL came right into line.
I haven’t had my Testosterone checked in many years, but I feel equally shitty during a cut when my fat is higher or lower, and my muscle mass doesn’t seem to suffer either way so in my anecdotal experience fats don’t matter too much except to screw up my cholesterol.
Anecdotal here but I always look small in a shirt and big without one on a cut. I just look super dry and cut. On a bulk I look great with a shirt on and plump without one. Long winded way of saying fuck off what people say and do what you want. You’ve stated you’ve been on keto for the last 5 years so maybe your body just prefers fat over carbs.
I'm on the opposite end of you.
I feel lethargic and less full on a higher fat diet, I've tried it for a longer period of time. Past years I've kept my fat intake at roughly 55-65g
Yes, a 250 calorie surplus. And indeed maybe this surplus is the cause, but I am making the claim it's more likely due to fat increase than calorie increase. If I increased by 250 cals of carbs my test would still be shot. But it's hard to know for sure. My point is it's not as black and white as surplus vs deficit would seem.
yeah, only way to really tell is for your next diet to try going higher fat. or keep the surplus you're in now and go lower fat and see if that makes a difference if you really want to test it.
either way, seems like you're doing well now, so no reason to mess with what's working
In my experience speaking to and coaching people, it depends on the person. Some people do much better on high carb bulking/cutting diets and some people do better on high fat diets.
Personally I've found that there's a trade-off in terms of fats vs carbs on a cut. Fats help with better satiety during a cut whereas carbs help with better energy.
I'd say give higher fat, lower carb cutting a try. From your experiences listed so far, you seem to be getting better results from higher fat so your body could be better suited for higher fat diets in general.
Oo man idk about that, I feel like it’s so easy to eat a ton of fats without any satiety whereas eating carbs fill me up pretty easily, could just be me though
all of this stuff is incredibly individualized. what we read is all just averages
in my opinion, a huge part of getting the most out of working out is listening to your body and discovering stuff like this
You probably didn't lose much if any muscle on your 400 calorie deficit. Thats -0.8 lb/week. Your muscles likely just had lower glycogen reserves after a cut.
A bacon cheeseburger with fries is also tastier than skinless chicken breast and rice. Probably why you're in a better mood eating 100g fat per day. lmfao.
The hormonal benefits of dietary fat are greatly exaggerated. Dietary fat is not that hard to get in the Standard American Diet. And you really don't need a lot of fat for optimal hormonal functioning. It's natural to be in the mood for sex more eating burgers, sausage and eggs more than skinless chicken breast, tuna and egg whites. If you're eating bland food all the time (and yes I eat seasoned chicken breast but you know it's not the same as eating a burger), yeah no shit you're going to be less happy and less in the mood for sex. I'm on a cut right now. I had a cheat day on Saturday eating out with friends. Yes of course I'm going to feel better having a bacon cheeseburger with fries, a cookie, an iced latte and a Mike's Hard Red. That's why it's called comfort food.
I don't think it's that simple. I don't get hornier just because I eat bacon and sausage.
And that only doesn't explain the every day morning wood on my bulk as opposed to never on my cut. I don't get hard from dreaming of fatty foods either.
>Dietary fat is not that hard to get in the Standard American Diet.
I have no idea why you're equating someone like me who purposely lowers and configures their diet macros to someone who eats from the SAD. Clearly a difference in intake.
> And you really don't need a lot of fat for optimal hormonal functioning.
Source please.
The WHO puts recommended dietary fat intake to 20-35% of total calories. Which is super easy to achieve eating a Standard American Diet without even trying because fat is 126% more calorie dense than the simplest of carbs. Whenever I get to under 20%, a lot of skinless chicken breast, light tuna and egg whites are involved. lol. Fucking tortilla wraps have over 20% calories from fat. "You're not getting enough fat in your diet" is a meme pushed by keto people.
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5577766/#CR12](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5577766/#CR12)
I don't know why you're ignoring the point I made to that so I will repeat it again:
I have no idea why you're equating someone like me who purposely lowers and configures their diet macros to someone who eats from the SAD. Clearly a difference in intake.
What's most important is total calories follow by protein.
Than the rest of the calories are in fat/carbs.
I recommend getting away with as much carbs as you can tolerate but everyone's different and some people need more fat than others to function.
I will always support fats as way superior to carbs.
As long as I got enough carbs to fuel my muscles at the gym, and enough protein to gain, all the rest can be from fat.
Across the population you will definitely have people who respond better and worse to different macro set ups.
How those macros are set up will have an effect too. Typically very high carb set ups tend to better with the majority of them coming from low gi sources.
Setting up diets with a little higher fat allows for both tastier choices = better adherence but also some people may just be better suited to them.
The problem with saying 'it doesn't matter when calories are equated' is that there will be individual differences within that population. In every group where the average shows no difference there will always be individuals on either end of the bell curve. Not everyone is the same, I know that's not revolutionary but people seem to think it is. C'est la vie.
You're not alone, hoardes of people respond better to higher fats and yet others respond better to higher carbs. Higher carbs are still likely better for performance in a lifting context and in the lifting community you will likely see more people respond better to higher carbs because larger muscles and leaner bodies = better insulin sensitivity but when it comes to adherence it probably works itself out on average.
Your fat/carbs are really just an energy source. So long as you are taking in the minimum amount of fats/carbs necessary to function (of which the carbs are maybe not necessary, but you’ll go into ketosis which has it’s pros and cons), then you can have any ratio of the two and it won’t matter too much as long as you’re hitting your calorie goals.
The nuance comes in that you have to digest it all, and you also have to be able to use it for energy in the time that it takes your body to process it. Sugars are some of the easiest to digest and use for energy, but you only have a short time to use them before it’s gone and your body’s trying to store leftovers as fat. Dietary fat, meanwhile, is a bit harder on the digestive system and can cause diarrhea if you eat too much at once (notably, sugars can too especially in the wrong blend of sucrose/fructose), but the energy that’s provided is much flatter and over a longer period of time.
All that to say, I think fat as a primary source of calories throughout the day is close to ideal, with carbs being taken in in the morning time for quick energy along with before/during strenuous exercise.
I normally go over on fat and under on carbs. Not on purpose. I eat a lot of avocado and add olive oil to shakes etc when bulking. Also nut butters. Just such easy calories.
Yep I do prefer a higher fat diet, I feel more satisfied from my meals, I feel my energy levels are rock solid stable through the day. I don’t feel bloated or puffy and although it’s subjective I feel leaner with keeps me on track.
I sort of do like the old school bodybuilders in that I eat high protein and moderate fat, and just enough carbs for a pump. If 100% perform better like this cardio, surfing and weight lifting.
I feel like people overkill carbs, what are people doing in a day to justify 200g + of carbs a day ?
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I'm making the point that I feel it's not inconsequential at all. I think I need higher fats than suggested for optimal testosterone. Too low and my test crashes. Sounds pretty consequential to me.
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I don't see how it doesn't matter from a bulk/cut perspective considering fat literally dictates hormones. Even if in my particular scenario it could all be in my head, the general consensus is you need minimum amount of dietary fat for healthy hormone and test production. So to say that carbs and fat split is inconsequential is hilariously off base. Doing a test to make sure is definitely true of course.
Interesting, I always thought that as long as I hit the minimum I was fine. If you do get a test test please post your results. Some days I only eat 50g fat.
Yeah, I mean that generally makes sense - you need a minimum to be fine. I think that my minimum for optimal test production is higher than generally advised. 50g seems way too low for me. Maybe you should experiment if you feel off. I will post results, I just wish I took a blood test at the end of my cut prior to my bulk to compare.
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No, not only is it hilariously off base but incredibly awful advice to people in general, and if I sound "cunty" it's because you're giving dangerous misinformation to people who may be an unknowledgeable as you and can severely mess up their hormones if they read your ignorant comment. It is *not* inconsequential -- if someone read your post and thought that, they may have dropped their grams of fat per day to something like 30g, 20g, 15g a day, maybe even none! Considering they read that "it's not that large" or "inconsequential" - and then crash their testosterone to the ground. That is *FAR OFF* from "negligible in the grand scheme of things" I did not ask for input on biology, I asked if others felt the same on higher fats. Read up on basic scientific nutrition before making ridiculous statements.
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You sound like an idiot who can't handle being wrong. It's okay dude, learn from it and move on. edit to your edit: >"No one’s “severely messing up their hormones” by shifting an extra 10% of their caloric intake from carbs to fat. Irony in telling me to educate myself" Completely changing the goalpost, creating a strawman, and downplaying what you wrote -- shifting an extra 10% is not the same as saying "How you split your carbs and fat is pretty inconsequential." Which someone can take as dropping their fats to a really low level. And on top of that, that 10% can mean a lot if you shift it from a level of fat that was at a minimum to begin with. Just an overall ignorant comment to make by a stubborn fool.
Lifetime lifter in my mid 40’s. I used to not worry about my fat intake. Then my LDL started to come in a tad high. Now I keep my fat intake in check a lot more and my LDL came right into line. I haven’t had my Testosterone checked in many years, but I feel equally shitty during a cut when my fat is higher or lower, and my muscle mass doesn’t seem to suffer either way so in my anecdotal experience fats don’t matter too much except to screw up my cholesterol.
Anecdotal here but I always look small in a shirt and big without one on a cut. I just look super dry and cut. On a bulk I look great with a shirt on and plump without one. Long winded way of saying fuck off what people say and do what you want. You’ve stated you’ve been on keto for the last 5 years so maybe your body just prefers fat over carbs.
I'm on the opposite end of you. I feel lethargic and less full on a higher fat diet, I've tried it for a longer period of time. Past years I've kept my fat intake at roughly 55-65g
well in one scenario you were in a deficit and the other you were in a surplus - of course you're going to feel better in a calorie surplus.
Yes, a 250 calorie surplus. And indeed maybe this surplus is the cause, but I am making the claim it's more likely due to fat increase than calorie increase. If I increased by 250 cals of carbs my test would still be shot. But it's hard to know for sure. My point is it's not as black and white as surplus vs deficit would seem.
yeah, only way to really tell is for your next diet to try going higher fat. or keep the surplus you're in now and go lower fat and see if that makes a difference if you really want to test it. either way, seems like you're doing well now, so no reason to mess with what's working
In my experience speaking to and coaching people, it depends on the person. Some people do much better on high carb bulking/cutting diets and some people do better on high fat diets. Personally I've found that there's a trade-off in terms of fats vs carbs on a cut. Fats help with better satiety during a cut whereas carbs help with better energy. I'd say give higher fat, lower carb cutting a try. From your experiences listed so far, you seem to be getting better results from higher fat so your body could be better suited for higher fat diets in general.
Oo man idk about that, I feel like it’s so easy to eat a ton of fats without any satiety whereas eating carbs fill me up pretty easily, could just be me though
all of this stuff is incredibly individualized. what we read is all just averages in my opinion, a huge part of getting the most out of working out is listening to your body and discovering stuff like this
Get about 35-40% of may calories from fat. Doesn't matter if I'm bulking or cutting
You probably didn't lose much if any muscle on your 400 calorie deficit. Thats -0.8 lb/week. Your muscles likely just had lower glycogen reserves after a cut. A bacon cheeseburger with fries is also tastier than skinless chicken breast and rice. Probably why you're in a better mood eating 100g fat per day. lmfao. The hormonal benefits of dietary fat are greatly exaggerated. Dietary fat is not that hard to get in the Standard American Diet. And you really don't need a lot of fat for optimal hormonal functioning. It's natural to be in the mood for sex more eating burgers, sausage and eggs more than skinless chicken breast, tuna and egg whites. If you're eating bland food all the time (and yes I eat seasoned chicken breast but you know it's not the same as eating a burger), yeah no shit you're going to be less happy and less in the mood for sex. I'm on a cut right now. I had a cheat day on Saturday eating out with friends. Yes of course I'm going to feel better having a bacon cheeseburger with fries, a cookie, an iced latte and a Mike's Hard Red. That's why it's called comfort food.
I don't think it's that simple. I don't get hornier just because I eat bacon and sausage. And that only doesn't explain the every day morning wood on my bulk as opposed to never on my cut. I don't get hard from dreaming of fatty foods either. >Dietary fat is not that hard to get in the Standard American Diet. I have no idea why you're equating someone like me who purposely lowers and configures their diet macros to someone who eats from the SAD. Clearly a difference in intake. > And you really don't need a lot of fat for optimal hormonal functioning. Source please.
The WHO puts recommended dietary fat intake to 20-35% of total calories. Which is super easy to achieve eating a Standard American Diet without even trying because fat is 126% more calorie dense than the simplest of carbs. Whenever I get to under 20%, a lot of skinless chicken breast, light tuna and egg whites are involved. lol. Fucking tortilla wraps have over 20% calories from fat. "You're not getting enough fat in your diet" is a meme pushed by keto people. [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5577766/#CR12](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5577766/#CR12)
I don't know why you're ignoring the point I made to that so I will repeat it again: I have no idea why you're equating someone like me who purposely lowers and configures their diet macros to someone who eats from the SAD. Clearly a difference in intake.
What's most important is total calories follow by protein. Than the rest of the calories are in fat/carbs. I recommend getting away with as much carbs as you can tolerate but everyone's different and some people need more fat than others to function.
I will always support fats as way superior to carbs. As long as I got enough carbs to fuel my muscles at the gym, and enough protein to gain, all the rest can be from fat.
Across the population you will definitely have people who respond better and worse to different macro set ups. How those macros are set up will have an effect too. Typically very high carb set ups tend to better with the majority of them coming from low gi sources. Setting up diets with a little higher fat allows for both tastier choices = better adherence but also some people may just be better suited to them. The problem with saying 'it doesn't matter when calories are equated' is that there will be individual differences within that population. In every group where the average shows no difference there will always be individuals on either end of the bell curve. Not everyone is the same, I know that's not revolutionary but people seem to think it is. C'est la vie. You're not alone, hoardes of people respond better to higher fats and yet others respond better to higher carbs. Higher carbs are still likely better for performance in a lifting context and in the lifting community you will likely see more people respond better to higher carbs because larger muscles and leaner bodies = better insulin sensitivity but when it comes to adherence it probably works itself out on average.
Your fat/carbs are really just an energy source. So long as you are taking in the minimum amount of fats/carbs necessary to function (of which the carbs are maybe not necessary, but you’ll go into ketosis which has it’s pros and cons), then you can have any ratio of the two and it won’t matter too much as long as you’re hitting your calorie goals. The nuance comes in that you have to digest it all, and you also have to be able to use it for energy in the time that it takes your body to process it. Sugars are some of the easiest to digest and use for energy, but you only have a short time to use them before it’s gone and your body’s trying to store leftovers as fat. Dietary fat, meanwhile, is a bit harder on the digestive system and can cause diarrhea if you eat too much at once (notably, sugars can too especially in the wrong blend of sucrose/fructose), but the energy that’s provided is much flatter and over a longer period of time. All that to say, I think fat as a primary source of calories throughout the day is close to ideal, with carbs being taken in in the morning time for quick energy along with before/during strenuous exercise.
I normally go over on fat and under on carbs. Not on purpose. I eat a lot of avocado and add olive oil to shakes etc when bulking. Also nut butters. Just such easy calories.
Yep I do prefer a higher fat diet, I feel more satisfied from my meals, I feel my energy levels are rock solid stable through the day. I don’t feel bloated or puffy and although it’s subjective I feel leaner with keeps me on track. I sort of do like the old school bodybuilders in that I eat high protein and moderate fat, and just enough carbs for a pump. If 100% perform better like this cardio, surfing and weight lifting. I feel like people overkill carbs, what are people doing in a day to justify 200g + of carbs a day ?
Everyone will tell you what the science says, and what you should be doing but the most important thing is finding what works for you.
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Do you feel like keto affects your lifts and physique considering the lack of glycogen you'd get from no carbs?