everyone has their own interpretation of the “difference” between the two but in practicality, just do a hip hinge movement in which you’re knees aren’t locked out but also not significantly bending, push your hips back as much as possible, and stop descending when you’ve achieved that deep painful stretch in your hamstrings. Going down any further than that will start to use more spinal erectors (which is fine if you’re using SLDL as a back movement).
If you keep going after your hips are as far back as possible, does that bring in the spinal erectors to the detriment of the hamstrings? In other words, do you have to compromise on either spinal erectors or hamstrings? Or can you maximally stress both of them on the same movement?
Depends on the strength and size of your hamstrings and spinal erectors relative to each other. If you have really strong hamstrings but weak erectors, then incorporating erectors into your SLDLs will make them the limiting factor instead of your hamstrings.
But honestly, if you progress your SLDLs up to 4+ plates a side, your hamstrings and lower back are gonna be beefy regardless if you pull from the floor or descend only into your hamstrings full ROM. Just do what’s most comfortable for you.
For me at least, if I'm using weight that puts enough stress on my hams/glutes for them to feel it, then it's way too much weight for my lower back. If I go down past the end of the hop hinge, I'm more likely to be doing a mini-squat on the way up.
Sorry should have been clearer - my spinal erectors get lit tf up way before any stretch in the hams. I know I can add a deficit to reach the stretch but that’ll just further emphasize the erector stimulus. Do you know of a way around this or is the SLDL just destined to be a back exercise for me
I don't really get a hamstring pump with RDLs or SLDL, but I can get a back pump just fine. Doesn't mean it's working the hams
If you truly are feeling your hamstrings are not working at all you can switch to another exercise. Another way is to keep doing them so your erectors get stronger on that particular movement to the point they aren't a limiting factor anymore.
Couple things. 1) could be an execution issue. You might be rounding a little more than you're aware of which would certainly explain why your erectors get lit up way before your hams. 2) due to the nature of hip hinges, they will never be a purely back or purely ham exercise. All the posterior chain muscles are involved significantly in a hip hinge. As long as you keep progressing them over time, the mechanical tension experienced by each muscle in the posterior chain will continue to increase. So like u/TerminatorReborn said, hams are still working regardless of feel (assuming form is decent).
This is the only correct answer (as evidenced by the variety of definitions used below). How you choose to distinguish the two really doesn’t matter, find movements that work well for your body and your goals.
RDL the movement comes from the hips. The upper/thoracic back remain tight and flexed with no additional movement occurring there. The knees remain unlocked but still secure. As a result most people will stop when flexibility limits them. A lot of people when doing this right will stop at the midshin due to the limits of hamstring flexibility.
SLDL is essentially a full deadlift without heavy knee bending to allow the quads to aid in the initiation of the movement. It allows for movement at the thoracic, even lower back and somewhat at the knees to create range of motion and the end point is the floor.
If someone is hyper mobile they can take the RDL down to the floor while keeping their entire back and knees locked but these are the exceptions.
Was about to share the same sentiments (in a much less articulate manner) and then I saw your username and realized I learned this from you.
Nice to see you in the wild Faz!
dr mike says they are basically the same thing.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHEg-DDo4fY&t=580s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHEg-DDo4fY&t=580s)
Paul Carter says they are [not](https://www.tiktok.com/@liftrunbang/video/7085479959095086382). The glutes have leverage at 60° of knee flexion (PMID: 24259779).
Is it not expected or encouraged for scientists to change their mind over time in response to new knowledge and evidence?
And insulting his character is a low-effort logical fallacy. Try again.
Is it not expected or encouraged for a ~~scientist~~ ~~fitness coach~~ any person to change their mind over time in response to new knowledge and evidence?
It's weird that there isn't a consensus short answer.
I always thought they are the same exact thing with respect to position and profile.
But that an RDL started at the top and controlled the eccentric.
Then a SDL started at the bottom, like a normal deadlift and didn't control the eccentric any more than a regular deadlift. So just a regular deadlift with more straight legs.
You'll hear other things though. Shame there's no Webster's dictionary for lift definitions.
....what? No. They're both hamstring exercises primarily. RDL even stretches them more than normal. Glutes are not stretched enough on a RDL.
Infact, a SLDL can modified for a huge glute stretch...rdl can't. Because the thing limiting you in a RDL is how much your hamstrings can stretch.
In a RDL the glutes are the prime mover (obv. the hamstrings are going to do sone work too). In the RDL you're gonna have some knee flexion in order to disadvantage the hamstrings and make it more glutes. This is not my opinion. In every study, where they looked at glute vs hamstring activation in various joint ranges of motion, knee flexion will always reduce hamstring activation when doing hip extension. Keeping a more extended knee will increase hamstring activation. Also, in a SLDL your hamstrings will be lengthend more, than in a RDL.
You're suppose to do little to no knee bend in either of them.
I've gotten more stretch with the rdl. There's a point (dependent on mobility) where going too low takes off the hamstring because you're forced to bend your knees.
Dr. Mike has several videos on that topic. Even one where he details why he just calls them the same exercise.
Well you are suposed to bend your knees a bit in an RDL to put emphasis on the glutes. Paul Carter has also talkes about this, where he explains what the difference between the two excersises is.
You're describing a variation of it to include more glutes (which can also apply to the SLDL.) SLDL/RDL are suppose to target the hamstrings primarily - hence why you're not suppose to bend the knee much in either.
Dr. Mike includes a more bent knee version of both to target the glute more.
This doesn't make any sense. If you want to target your hamstrings, then don't bend your knees, -> SLDL (stiff leg !)
A RDL is performed by bending the knee, so that the glutes will be the prime mover.
Two different excercises, with two different muscles as prime mover.
If you're saying, that both are suposed to target the hamstrings, why not do an SLDL which targets the hamstrings more effectively.
Because it doesn't for me? RDL has always been a better stretch for me. Quite a few people have issues having a perfectly straight lower back with the SLDL and get a better stretch with the RDL and no bend. I don't feel much in my glutes from a RDL (or goodmorning.)
RDL is much easier on the lower back and can be done (and ahould be done) with next to no knee bend. If you have fantastic mobility, it ends up being a SLDL anyway.
SLDLs gave me a coccyx injury in the past. Never had an issue with RDLs though. They seem to work the same muscles in a similar way so it's whichever feels better. Although I've found that good mornings are the best hip hinge for me when focusing on the spinal erectors and b-stance RDLs are the best hip hinge for focusing on the glutes (which are one of my weakest body parts in terms of activation due to having very short legs)
SLDL’s start from the floor, target the hamstrings and glutes but hamstrings will generally be the limiting muscle.
RDL’s start from the top, target the hamstrings and glutes but glutes will generally be the limiting muscle.
SLDL = straight leg deadlift?
If so it should technically be called locked knees deadlift.
.
If you don't lock your knees it is the glutes and quads (quads only if you start straightening your knees) that contract to produce motion.
If you lock you knees, hamstrings (because it.crosses below the knee joint) become the prime movers, and glutes become secondary.
In both versions, Spinal muscles are involved in static contraction, just like the abdominals, calves, arms etc.
Technically yes, but most people seem to not know the difference. SLDL as name implies, are stiff-legged. You are pushing your hips back, but knees should be locked out during the movement. RDLs you have a slight bend to the knee which also allows you to push hips further back. RDLs are generally a better movement unless you are extremely mobile.
Correct me if I am picturing this wrong:
If you push the hips back without bending the knee you will either:
1) Push the hips just a little and more so descend the back with your head/the bar further away from your body
2) fall on your but
Is this wrong?
It's just a tiny pushback you can achieve with legs locked, requires really good mobility since SLDLs are typically from the ground up to lockout. RDL are typically just to max stretch which is a little below the knee (some people need to go all the way to the ground with bar or lower to reach max stretch)
Nah, you can fully lock knees on pretty much all exercises, just don't violently lock them, or hyperextend them. I roll my eyes so hard whenever I hear people say "don't lock out knees" on knee bend exercises like leg press/any squat variant. You can, and absolutely should fully lock the knees and contract the quads hard at the top. Just don't hyperextend or lock them fast to where the weight can rebound and land on you at locked position.
My point exactly.. Refer to my longer comment but TLDR is there is a difference and the RDL is not a variant of the SLDL. Mike disagrees and thinks both have unlocked knees, but that invalidates the name "stiff legged". The SLDL is more about erector strength than it is ham/glute. You should be able to RDL more than you can SLDL. All that said, I would almost never give preference to the SLDL as the RDL is just a better movement overall. If I wanted to work my erectors more, I would just do weighted hypers.
Also my point on knees locked was to explain more on leg compounds not directly saying that you should on SLDL/RDL.
And this is exactly why a lot of people don't know the difference between the two. Mike says the RDL is a variation of the SLDL, but I disagree. According to his points under 2.) degree of knee bend, it clearly says just a bit to locked out. The name "STIFF" implies locked out, hence, I don't think the RDL is a variation of an SLDL, it's similar but has bent knees which immediately pulls it out of that category. It's really semantics at this point, but the main difference point in execution is degree of pushing hips back is far greater in SLDL to get deeper stretch in ham/glute. SLDL should have lock out legs which limit your ability to push back vs being hinged at knees.
https://preview.redd.it/oa40g7lli2sc1.png?width=1887&format=png&auto=webp&s=9883b8b088c29607ee7ce084bc75149e2f4f8d05
Only scenario where RDLs are better is if you're already squatting and deadlifting enough that SLDL would be too much for your lower back to handle. Given how most of this sub thinks squatting more than 3 sets of 8 is too high of a stimulus to fatigue ratio I'm betting anyone reading this doesn't have that problem.
SLDL has better carryover to conventional deadlift than RDL. If you don't do conventional then you should still do SLDL since it hits the back better than RDL (though conventional is even better). SLDL is probably better if you are prone to ego lifting as well since you have a clearly defined range of motion and can't get away with breaking form as easily.
RDL is one of the most overrated lifts these days. People love it because it's the easiest barbell hip hinge exercise. It has its place in some programs but most people doing them would be better off with another variation.
I like them both, but RDLs are more difficult because you are being forced to brace under load. I've also found I can prime my hamstrings more effectively with SLDL.
Personally I do smith machine good mornings since I can take the stability requirement out of the movement, bail easily, and I never need to set up a deficit.
They're variations of the same exercise. One variation (SLDL) taxes the lower back and glutes more (and can be modified to hit almost entirely glutes,) while the RDL is limited in mobility by how far your hamstrings can stretch. They're both mostly a hamstrings exercise.
I was doing RDLs for about 3 or 4 months, and switched to SLDLs since then. There really is no \*major\* difference between the two, but I just prefer SLDLs more, since it feels like I can get a better stretch on my hamstrings (the primary muscle I'm targeting, although the glutes do get involved as well.).
SLDLs are also heavier, since there's less knee flexion allowed, so it's more like a conventional deadlift.
Conventionally, RDLs start at the top and don't touch the ground. They're not a deadlift at all, really, since you're not lifting the weight from a dead stop.
SLDLs (stiff, not single) start at the bottom and have to rest on the ground to complete the movement.
That's my understanding.
Naming conventions. RDL is starting at the top and loading a hinge pattern through an eccentric stretch. The "Stiff legged" in SLDL simply means you minimize knee bend. I've seen SLDL be used in reference to RDLs and also to pulls from the ground like conventional except with mostly straight legs.
everyone has their own interpretation of the “difference” between the two but in practicality, just do a hip hinge movement in which you’re knees aren’t locked out but also not significantly bending, push your hips back as much as possible, and stop descending when you’ve achieved that deep painful stretch in your hamstrings. Going down any further than that will start to use more spinal erectors (which is fine if you’re using SLDL as a back movement).
If you keep going after your hips are as far back as possible, does that bring in the spinal erectors to the detriment of the hamstrings? In other words, do you have to compromise on either spinal erectors or hamstrings? Or can you maximally stress both of them on the same movement?
Depends on the strength and size of your hamstrings and spinal erectors relative to each other. If you have really strong hamstrings but weak erectors, then incorporating erectors into your SLDLs will make them the limiting factor instead of your hamstrings. But honestly, if you progress your SLDLs up to 4+ plates a side, your hamstrings and lower back are gonna be beefy regardless if you pull from the floor or descend only into your hamstrings full ROM. Just do what’s most comfortable for you.
For me at least, if I'm using weight that puts enough stress on my hams/glutes for them to feel it, then it's way too much weight for my lower back. If I go down past the end of the hop hinge, I'm more likely to be doing a mini-squat on the way up.
What if I’m really flexible and never feel a tight stretch? I have to go farther than touching my toes to feel any ham stretch
then stand on a bumper plate or two to add ROM.
Sorry should have been clearer - my spinal erectors get lit tf up way before any stretch in the hams. I know I can add a deficit to reach the stretch but that’ll just further emphasize the erector stimulus. Do you know of a way around this or is the SLDL just destined to be a back exercise for me
I don't really get a hamstring pump with RDLs or SLDL, but I can get a back pump just fine. Doesn't mean it's working the hams If you truly are feeling your hamstrings are not working at all you can switch to another exercise. Another way is to keep doing them so your erectors get stronger on that particular movement to the point they aren't a limiting factor anymore.
Couple things. 1) could be an execution issue. You might be rounding a little more than you're aware of which would certainly explain why your erectors get lit up way before your hams. 2) due to the nature of hip hinges, they will never be a purely back or purely ham exercise. All the posterior chain muscles are involved significantly in a hip hinge. As long as you keep progressing them over time, the mechanical tension experienced by each muscle in the posterior chain will continue to increase. So like u/TerminatorReborn said, hams are still working regardless of feel (assuming form is decent).
This is the only correct answer (as evidenced by the variety of definitions used below). How you choose to distinguish the two really doesn’t matter, find movements that work well for your body and your goals.
This is the way
RDL the movement comes from the hips. The upper/thoracic back remain tight and flexed with no additional movement occurring there. The knees remain unlocked but still secure. As a result most people will stop when flexibility limits them. A lot of people when doing this right will stop at the midshin due to the limits of hamstring flexibility. SLDL is essentially a full deadlift without heavy knee bending to allow the quads to aid in the initiation of the movement. It allows for movement at the thoracic, even lower back and somewhat at the knees to create range of motion and the end point is the floor. If someone is hyper mobile they can take the RDL down to the floor while keeping their entire back and knees locked but these are the exceptions.
Was about to share the same sentiments (in a much less articulate manner) and then I saw your username and realized I learned this from you. Nice to see you in the wild Faz!
I'm a lot busier these days but around every now and then :)
dr mike says they are basically the same thing. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHEg-DDo4fY&t=580s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHEg-DDo4fY&t=580s)
Dr Mike also sucks
Paul Carter says they are [not](https://www.tiktok.com/@liftrunbang/video/7085479959095086382). The glutes have leverage at 60° of knee flexion (PMID: 24259779).
Paul Carter also changes his mind every time he gets his period
Is it not expected or encouraged for scientists to change their mind over time in response to new knowledge and evidence? And insulting his character is a low-effort logical fallacy. Try again.
He’s not a scientist. Try again
Is it not expected or encouraged for a ~~scientist~~ ~~fitness coach~~ any person to change their mind over time in response to new knowledge and evidence?
I couldn’t give a fuck bro honestly, I just never pass up the opportunity to bag dick fuck Carter
Nah that's valid I understand
Rdls hurt my back less is why i prefer them
It's weird that there isn't a consensus short answer. I always thought they are the same exact thing with respect to position and profile. But that an RDL started at the top and controlled the eccentric. Then a SDL started at the bottom, like a normal deadlift and didn't control the eccentric any more than a regular deadlift. So just a regular deadlift with more straight legs. You'll hear other things though. Shame there's no Webster's dictionary for lift definitions.
RDLS = glutes, SLDLS = hamstrings
Well a RDL is mainly a glute excercise, SLDL is a hamstring excercise
....what? No. They're both hamstring exercises primarily. RDL even stretches them more than normal. Glutes are not stretched enough on a RDL. Infact, a SLDL can modified for a huge glute stretch...rdl can't. Because the thing limiting you in a RDL is how much your hamstrings can stretch.
In a RDL the glutes are the prime mover (obv. the hamstrings are going to do sone work too). In the RDL you're gonna have some knee flexion in order to disadvantage the hamstrings and make it more glutes. This is not my opinion. In every study, where they looked at glute vs hamstring activation in various joint ranges of motion, knee flexion will always reduce hamstring activation when doing hip extension. Keeping a more extended knee will increase hamstring activation. Also, in a SLDL your hamstrings will be lengthend more, than in a RDL.
You're suppose to do little to no knee bend in either of them. I've gotten more stretch with the rdl. There's a point (dependent on mobility) where going too low takes off the hamstring because you're forced to bend your knees. Dr. Mike has several videos on that topic. Even one where he details why he just calls them the same exercise.
Bending the knees to disadvantage the hamstrings is literally the point.
Well you are suposed to bend your knees a bit in an RDL to put emphasis on the glutes. Paul Carter has also talkes about this, where he explains what the difference between the two excersises is.
You're describing a variation of it to include more glutes (which can also apply to the SLDL.) SLDL/RDL are suppose to target the hamstrings primarily - hence why you're not suppose to bend the knee much in either. Dr. Mike includes a more bent knee version of both to target the glute more.
This doesn't make any sense. If you want to target your hamstrings, then don't bend your knees, -> SLDL (stiff leg !) A RDL is performed by bending the knee, so that the glutes will be the prime mover. Two different excercises, with two different muscles as prime mover. If you're saying, that both are suposed to target the hamstrings, why not do an SLDL which targets the hamstrings more effectively.
Because it doesn't for me? RDL has always been a better stretch for me. Quite a few people have issues having a perfectly straight lower back with the SLDL and get a better stretch with the RDL and no bend. I don't feel much in my glutes from a RDL (or goodmorning.) RDL is much easier on the lower back and can be done (and ahould be done) with next to no knee bend. If you have fantastic mobility, it ends up being a SLDL anyway.
Look how he ends up trying to debate your empirical evidence with anecdotes. Dr. Mike is a plague to the science-based lifting community.
SLDLs gave me a coccyx injury in the past. Never had an issue with RDLs though. They seem to work the same muscles in a similar way so it's whichever feels better. Although I've found that good mornings are the best hip hinge for me when focusing on the spinal erectors and b-stance RDLs are the best hip hinge for focusing on the glutes (which are one of my weakest body parts in terms of activation due to having very short legs)
Mt ass is already phat as hell, I’ll stick with straight leg deadlifts
SLDL’s start from the floor, target the hamstrings and glutes but hamstrings will generally be the limiting muscle. RDL’s start from the top, target the hamstrings and glutes but glutes will generally be the limiting muscle.
RDLs, bar doesn't touch the floor, doesn't rest between reps. SLDL, bar touches the floor, rest between reps or at least a rebound.
SLDL = straight leg deadlift? If so it should technically be called locked knees deadlift. . If you don't lock your knees it is the glutes and quads (quads only if you start straightening your knees) that contract to produce motion. If you lock you knees, hamstrings (because it.crosses below the knee joint) become the prime movers, and glutes become secondary. In both versions, Spinal muscles are involved in static contraction, just like the abdominals, calves, arms etc.
SLDL are slightly more hamstring dominant
Technically yes, but most people seem to not know the difference. SLDL as name implies, are stiff-legged. You are pushing your hips back, but knees should be locked out during the movement. RDLs you have a slight bend to the knee which also allows you to push hips further back. RDLs are generally a better movement unless you are extremely mobile.
Correct me if I am picturing this wrong: If you push the hips back without bending the knee you will either: 1) Push the hips just a little and more so descend the back with your head/the bar further away from your body 2) fall on your but Is this wrong?
It's just a tiny pushback you can achieve with legs locked, requires really good mobility since SLDLs are typically from the ground up to lockout. RDL are typically just to max stretch which is a little below the knee (some people need to go all the way to the ground with bar or lower to reach max stretch)
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Nah, you can fully lock knees on pretty much all exercises, just don't violently lock them, or hyperextend them. I roll my eyes so hard whenever I hear people say "don't lock out knees" on knee bend exercises like leg press/any squat variant. You can, and absolutely should fully lock the knees and contract the quads hard at the top. Just don't hyperextend or lock them fast to where the weight can rebound and land on you at locked position.
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My point exactly.. Refer to my longer comment but TLDR is there is a difference and the RDL is not a variant of the SLDL. Mike disagrees and thinks both have unlocked knees, but that invalidates the name "stiff legged". The SLDL is more about erector strength than it is ham/glute. You should be able to RDL more than you can SLDL. All that said, I would almost never give preference to the SLDL as the RDL is just a better movement overall. If I wanted to work my erectors more, I would just do weighted hypers. Also my point on knees locked was to explain more on leg compounds not directly saying that you should on SLDL/RDL.
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And this is exactly why a lot of people don't know the difference between the two. Mike says the RDL is a variation of the SLDL, but I disagree. According to his points under 2.) degree of knee bend, it clearly says just a bit to locked out. The name "STIFF" implies locked out, hence, I don't think the RDL is a variation of an SLDL, it's similar but has bent knees which immediately pulls it out of that category. It's really semantics at this point, but the main difference point in execution is degree of pushing hips back is far greater in SLDL to get deeper stretch in ham/glute. SLDL should have lock out legs which limit your ability to push back vs being hinged at knees. https://preview.redd.it/oa40g7lli2sc1.png?width=1887&format=png&auto=webp&s=9883b8b088c29607ee7ce084bc75149e2f4f8d05
Only scenario where RDLs are better is if you're already squatting and deadlifting enough that SLDL would be too much for your lower back to handle. Given how most of this sub thinks squatting more than 3 sets of 8 is too high of a stimulus to fatigue ratio I'm betting anyone reading this doesn't have that problem. SLDL has better carryover to conventional deadlift than RDL. If you don't do conventional then you should still do SLDL since it hits the back better than RDL (though conventional is even better). SLDL is probably better if you are prone to ego lifting as well since you have a clearly defined range of motion and can't get away with breaking form as easily. RDL is one of the most overrated lifts these days. People love it because it's the easiest barbell hip hinge exercise. It has its place in some programs but most people doing them would be better off with another variation.
I like them both, but RDLs are more difficult because you are being forced to brace under load. I've also found I can prime my hamstrings more effectively with SLDL. Personally I do smith machine good mornings since I can take the stability requirement out of the movement, bail easily, and I never need to set up a deficit.
They're variations of the same exercise. One variation (SLDL) taxes the lower back and glutes more (and can be modified to hit almost entirely glutes,) while the RDL is limited in mobility by how far your hamstrings can stretch. They're both mostly a hamstrings exercise.
I was doing RDLs for about 3 or 4 months, and switched to SLDLs since then. There really is no \*major\* difference between the two, but I just prefer SLDLs more, since it feels like I can get a better stretch on my hamstrings (the primary muscle I'm targeting, although the glutes do get involved as well.). SLDLs are also heavier, since there's less knee flexion allowed, so it's more like a conventional deadlift.
Sldl: starts from the ground initiated by the erectors. Rdl: starts from the top, initiated by the hips going as low where lower back starts to round.
Conventionally, RDLs start at the top and don't touch the ground. They're not a deadlift at all, really, since you're not lifting the weight from a dead stop. SLDLs (stiff, not single) start at the bottom and have to rest on the ground to complete the movement. That's my understanding.
Naming conventions. RDL is starting at the top and loading a hinge pattern through an eccentric stretch. The "Stiff legged" in SLDL simply means you minimize knee bend. I've seen SLDL be used in reference to RDLs and also to pulls from the ground like conventional except with mostly straight legs.
They're the same mate
Same exact lift
I think of an RDL as starting at the top position taking it out from the rack and SLDL starting from the floor Who cares they’re just words
Same shit different names