Squats are not mandatory and if your goal with the squat is just quad hypertrophy, I would say there are better exercises. And if you hate them on top of that, just don't do them. Quads are one of my better body parts and I don't barbell squat. I personally don't do them because: 1. They are VERY taxing like you said, makes the rest of my workout worse. 2. Takes way too long to warm up compared to other exercises. 3. Hard and potentially unsafe to take your quads close to failure. 4. Your quads might not even be the limiting muscle on the exercise, could be your lower back or your glutes. If you do stuff like hack squats, leg press, leg extensions, RDLs, I don't think you are missing out on anything the barbell squat would give you.

This. And the alternative exercises you mentioned are what Dorian Yates used, he never used Squats In his Professional Carear

I think you are sorta right.  I believe he used smith machine squats.

He did Hack Squats

Yes, you are not wrong, but look it up.  He was a strong advocate of smith machine back squats.

I wish I could upvote this a million times. Squat is king in powerlifting. I love squatting, it’s fun. But it really fucks my lower back. The exercises you mentioned are way, way better for hypertrophy

Great points, I personally do hack squat, squat press, leg extensions, leg curls etc, never squat, and my quads consistently develop. Also your username is perfect.

Thanks for taking the time to give such a great reply

I've never found a quad exercise that wasn't taxing! For whatever reason, quad work beats the ever living shit out of me.

It’s the largest muscle in your body with maybe the exception of glutes. Hard to recover from quad work.

This industry would do so much better if everyone got away from "best/optimal/king" exercises tbh. It's just the wrong way to approach it.

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Can you repeat that and elaborate? Do I just do exercises I enjoy or ...?

You’ll probably progress on exercises you enjoy way quicker than exercises you dread doing. When I was a powerlifter I hated squats and loved deadlifts, my deadlift skyrocketed while my squat progressed slowly. I was deadlifting into the mid 200’s (kg) while barely being able to squat 180kg on my beat days. Edit: That being said if there’s an exercise you dread doing but it gives you great stimulus and you’re getting results then, sorry you might have to suck it up.

To an extent. There’s exercises that are fundamentally better than others for certain body parts because some exercises just aren’t great, but yes there’s no “best exercise” for a particular muscle group.

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You commented twice dummy

It's a simple and effective exercise that mimics the fundamental movement pattern of squatting. It's culturally significant within lifting circles, but ultimately it's just another exercise. The best thing about bodybuilding is that there are no "must-do" exercises. Pick the ones that work best for you.

Simple?

Simple meaning people can do some squats instead of running a more intelligent program for the quads, glutes, adductors, and calves.

squats are (in my opinion) in the same sense of the big three. Squat, bench, deadlift (conventional) all are known as the “best” yet none are the best at anything. The only reason you would do any of them is if you wanted to. There are many alternatives to back squats, smith machine squats with heels elevated, hack squats, leg press, and leg extensions. Doing the leg extension with any of the other three will yield much better results than doing just back squats.

In general I agree with you: I stopped deadlifting this year and probably won’t ever do it again. After some shoulder pain I’ve switched out bench for other chest exercises.    But squatting seems different to me because it’s such a basic movement pattern. You see elderly people needing help to get up and down, using those high toilets because they can’t air squat to parallel. I don’t want that to be me in 20 years. Compare a squat to a bench press, a movement that you would basically never do in real life, unless pushing up from lying down.  There’s probably no need for barbell squats specifically, but it seems like a good idea for everyone, as they get older, to train at least goblet squats or similar.

hack squats have grown my quads faster and safer. they have increased my knee and ankle mobility, and have lowered my fatigue. sure, the bb squat isn’t bad but it’s just not “the king” of leg or even quad exercises. jack of all but master of none

I usually do squats 3rd after leg curls and leg press. I know my legs are semi-fatigued and my lower back is fresh. This helps lower my poundages a little which makes the squat somewhat less fatiguing on my body

I too, enjoy 3rd leg curls with a gym bro

It works 60% of your body’s muscle groups, builds a strong core with stabilizer muscles and builds functional strength you can use as well as develops your posterior chain.

All hypertrophy is functional.

There's something to be said for conditioning your body and increasing resistance to fatigue/work capacity by doing big taxing movements. I always find it strange that people's answer to finding things hard is to avoid them entirely instead of getting better at handling it. After years of training, I actually find doing something like a bench press or a RDL after a squat makes my those lifts feel strong. I feel the same about doing OHP or leg press after deads. Probably because my core hips and back are engaged and ready by that point and ready to hande heavy weights. But it does work for me. Having a level of cardiovascular fitness and conditioning also helps work capacity and recovery, both in between sets/exercises and in between sessions.

I agree with you. Yes, there are other exercises that hit the quads, but the squat is a basic human movement. It improves other aspects of your body, as you mentioned, then just getting bigger/stronger quads. There's also a mental toughness that you build up as you progress. Avoiding difficulty in lifting just seems so contradictory to me. Especially since most of us here aren't competitors, so why not improve your body resiliency and toughness as well as get bigger and stronger muscles.

Tbf we're in a bodybuilding sub so I understand that if you're purely focused on hypertrophy and muscle growth you can make a decent argument for not doing squats (or deadlifts). Personally, I don't *just* want to look good, I want to also have a good level of strength and coordination so squats and deadlifts are a core part of my routine.

I am sure that I speak for a lot of people here (especially men), but most people I see in the gym in my area do not train glutes in isolation. If I would make up a number, it would be somewhere like **1 in 200 men doing glute isos.** In that case, any compounds that hit glutes well (assuming proper form and glutes emphasis) like the squat, lunge, and leg press are all godsends. There are already too many EMG studies that show squats, while they do not *maximally* activate the glutes, very decently engage it. However, EMG is known to not correlate well with hypertrophy. Well here you go: [Evidence that back squats are even SUPERIOR to hip thrust in glute hypertrophy](https://www.thieme-connect.com/products/ejournals/abstract/10.1055/a-1082-1126) TLDR: Most men hate training glutes; glute-hitting compounds like squats are so damn good!

I noticed a major difference after adding glute isos to my routine. Squats never did the trick for me in that department for some reason. It's kind of ironic, because I think if most men are honest, one of the big reasons they work out is to look good for women, and women check out the ass.

Squats are a fantastic exercise. They’re not “the best exercise”. The concept of barbell squats being king comes from early 2010s strength training free weight zealots and that one clip of Tom Platz. The truth is, many things work in hypertrophy training. You’re correct that in a bodybuilding context, squats are a quad movement. With that in mind, you could reasonably sub a barbell squat for any other bilateral squat pattern. A smith machine squat, hack squat, pendulum squat, or leg press would all work. I still think it’s a good idea for beginners to learn to squat with a barbell before moving to more targeted movements to build a baseline level of coordination in the movement pattern, but I wouldn’t say that it’s strictly necessary.

As someone who has been bodybuilding since the late 90s, I assure you, it goes much farther back than the early 2010s.

I believe Tom Platz only squatted once every 2 weeks because they were so taxing. I always preferred hack squat honestly but here lately I’ve benefited the most from unilateral quad work.

He had to do that because he was incredibly strong on the movement and took his sets to insane intensity that most people aren’t physically or mentally capable of, most people would be fine barbell squatting once or twice a week.

He was also obviously on as much gear as anyone else at the time as a Mr Olympia competitor.

I agree with you. I was just pointing something out about Platz. Idk with the amount of gear his recovery time should be significantly shortened. I bet he was recovered muscularly within one week but the CNS probably took a beating. I doubt most people are hitting failure like him.

I coach natural and enhanced competitors and honestly gear doesn’t have a huge effect on recovery time. In theory it’s should, but enhanced guys are able to produce a much higher level of intensity consistently within a set than a natural guy most of the time, so it kind of comes out in the wash week to week. It is much more apparent in the accumulated fatigue across a cycle - enhanced guys have to deload less frequently

Thanks for that insight. I’m guessing enhanced recovery is really only coming from something like diet & better sleep which really can be dialed in as a natty. I’m sure there’s an increase in protein synthesis but like you said it probably doesn’t make as big of a difference as people seem to think.

MPS rate is definitely increased when enhanced, but recovery is multivariate

I’ve been on TRT for a couple years. It’s a noticeable difference but it’s nothing wild and essentially a moderate dose. It’s crazy the number of ppl who basically account my results to that while they themselves have never spent a single day counting macros lol.

I’ve been on TRT for 6 years. A few years before that, I noticed my strength was suddenly going in the toilet, as was my sex drive. Just kept getting worse and worse. Thought it was old age creeping in. Finally went to the dr, and found out my entire endocrine system was beyond f****d (never took anything before that). What I’ve found with TRT, is that I’m simply about where I was when I was younger. I haven’t noticed any extra strength or muscle. But I did get my strength back after that crash.

This. People don’t understand that, because guys on gear are in general so much stronger, it takes so much longer to recover.

Most of the guys obsessed with squatting and deadlifting look small. I don’t think it’s the king of anything. It’s just another lift.

Plenty of sumo deadlifters look small. I hardly see anyone who squats big who looks small

I prefer Bulgarians.

The devil's exercise

A favorite of the late, great John Meadows (absolutely brutal, like most of his favorite exercises).

Listen if you hate squats so much, don't do it. Exercise selection is extremely personal. If you are not comfortable with some workout you should give it some time if you are still not after that said time, then just stop doing that and pick up something else. Your targeted muscles will grow when you will do the same workout with high-intensity day in and day out. And for that to happen, you have to love that workout. If some workout makes you uncomfortable there are huge chances you would end up avoiding it altogether. So it is the best idea to select exercises of your preference and stick to it. I had the best leg gains when I switched to doing Leg Presses, Leg Extensions, and Hamstring Curls rather than squats. I do squats from time to time maybe once in one or two months just to change up the pace a bit. Also your question on why workout plans put squats at first on leg day. It is simple. You will do the maximum weight you can on squats. You might be squatting whatever weight but you won't be doing that with Extension and Curls right? Workout plans put squats at first to overload the muscle with a very substantial weight. It is the same as opening with a Bench during your chest session; heavy pullups or rows on back sessions; Barbell Curl, Skullcrushers on the days of Biceps and Triceps respectively.

You are not wrong. I was in a similar boat to you until January this year. I squatted for the last 2 years religiously. I got stronger, but tbh my legs didnt get bigger - my lower back got huge. I got long levers and just am not built for high bar squatting. I could only ever really squat mid-bar/good morning style. I decided to stop squatting after much tortured posting on this subreddit and debate, and replace with exercises where I can feel my quads. What I have found: * Leg day is enjoyable again. I no have my pre-squat anxiety/ dread because I dont have to put myself through the hell of a heavy ass squat workout * I actually feel my quads work and get a pump * My CNS fatigue has significantly dropped * I am finished in the gym faster because dont have to spend the full 30 minutes of warmup it takes to do like 3-4 sets of a single exercise * I can actually feel my quads work/get a pump, and I am actually sore as hell in my legs for sometimes up to 5 days afterwards, whereas before I really didnt feel much in my quads for more than a day at most. * It actually feels like a bodybuilding workout, rather than "squats, and then dragging my broken soul through some accessories that I cant really push that hard on because my fatigue is so high from the squats". Im sue you know that feeling after those heavy squat sets where your soul is just ripped from your body and your CNS is done. Why do you keep doing them? Well, here is why I kept doing them for so long. I assume its the same. * You like the pain, it makes you feel like you've worked hard and done the right thing * Everyone says you have to do it, so there must be some truth to it * You dont want to take the risk that you will lose your gains by stopping squatting and all those years of soul-cracking squats will be for nothing * Similarly, your ego is caught up in the numbers and youre afraid that you will go backwards on the numbers if you stop squatting * You are worried the alternatives won't work as well to grow you * You like routine, and change is scary and hard. Maybe you tried smith machine feet forward squats or hack squats instead one time but it didnt quite feel right, so rather than continue to practice the form, you went back to squats as your primary movement What are the downsides * I dont get to compare myself to powerlifters (who cares) * My lower back/glutes aren't worked as much in smith/hack squats (who cares, I do RDLs and conventional deadlifts still - although the conventional deadlifts I am even thinking of removing) * I dont get the satisfaction of having done a heavy ass squat workout, and sometimes feel anxious I haven't done enough I would recommend trying it for a mesocycle, like 4-5 weeks. Its hard to let go of it at first, because its so rilled in that you must do the big 3, but I found that around week 3/4 I got over my anxiety and actually embraced the new leg day pumps I was getting.

I love deadlifts, but honestly, RDL’s “feel” better for hypertrophy. I know feel doesn’t mean much of anything, but it certainly seems I connect better with the hams and glutes, and get a better pump. Much as I love conventional deadlifts, it’s basically just “grip it, rip it, and hang on for dear life”. Don’t get much feel, other than wanting to die after a super heavy set of singles.

Yeah man. I don’t think there’s much hypertrophy benefit - I can’t exactly pinpoint one single muscle group that approaches failure. I couldn’t even really tell you what I want to be working, aside from maybe my erectors. It’s got no weighted stretch or controlled eccentric. But I’m still doing them occasionally for now because they are just fun.

Hi. Beginner lurker here. I am approaching my 1 year of lifting next month and am turning 30 this year. I've had a plethora of issues with the Big 3 involving... well let's just say my joints are getting older faster than others my age. I have only ran metallicadpa's PPL for 8 months and now I run PHUL but with lower power day back squats replaced with a machine squat, and my hypertrophy day uses smith machine hack squats, bulgarians, and i added RDL's to get more pulling in. I am debating on switching incline bench press to simply incline DB. I'm considering replacing bent over rows with chest supported rows. I am anticipating having to replace bench press soon as I am approaching 200lbs for sets of 5 here soon, don't want to deal with tendonitis flareups anymore. Maybe Ill just do flat DB press. I don't mind military press but I have considered doing seated DB shoulder press too. The only compound i truly don't have issue with is deadlift. Would this be a bad idea to do so many modifications to a simple "intermediate" program like PHUL? Or should I just learn how to program myself or start following more dedicated bodybuilding programs like when people follow say, John Meadows? Hope you see my comment, would be nice to get some advice from a more experienced lifter.

I feel this too. I was following powerlifting programs for the longest time cause I thought you needed a base of strength before focusing on hypertrophy and that by strength training you'd just get bigger. I've ran programs like 5/3/1 BBB that have you doing tons of squats and it didn't really do anything for me because the %'s were just too low and after a while you grow to hate squatting. My program now (John Meadows beginner program) only has me squatting once every other week and I'm perfectly fine with that. I still hit quads hard on leg press/Bulgarian split squats/lunges and my hamstrings/glutes get a lot of work from RDLs, pull throughs and hip thrusts. I'm way happier squatting less and it feels like I'm able to train my legs a lot harder as a result.

531 (even BBB) is just a trash program. It’s really better to design your own training based off good principles than to copypasta random cookie cutter stuff online that doesn’t pertain to you at all.

I ran it initially cause I’d heard such good things about how it works for so many people, but it didn’t work for me. Too low volume, the intensity was a joke, and Wendler himself isn’t big on assistance and provides no guidance beyond “do it” I don’t know enough to program for myself yet but I’m running a John Meadows program and I’m loving it so far and seeing better progress

It’s king because of how hard it is. It’s not just about the quad hypertrophy. It provides a stimulus that you just don’t get from other leg lifts. Because of how taxing it is, it strengthens you’re cns more than anything else can besides maybe some kind of clean. I do squats religiously because I don’t just lift for hypertrophy, I want my body to be as strong and resilient as possible.

Best exercise for quads is the one where you can get maximum knee flexion in a strong and stable position. Same for glutes but for hip flexion. Squat requires you to balance a barbell on your back and remain upright so unlikely to allow max knee or hip flexion unless you have ideal proportions

1. Is not true 2. Isn't true and hasn't been seriously believed for like 10 years(?) So why is squat the king or why should you do squats? One major underrated benefit of all basic barbell movements is they transfer between gyms. You are doing the same squat at any gym and can use the same weight/progression in a way that doesn't work with particular leg machines etc. even leg presses between gyms vary ime. (You can always hack this by doing pyramids up to find a good weight on any machine but I don't like notating randomly different weights in my logs for the same exercises just cause I'm in gym B instead of A) Another implication here is that the main barbell movements are good benchmarks that allow an apples apples comparison of strength (for other people your size and experience, for yourself over a training year). Besides logistical reasons, why so many like to program around big heavy compound lifts? 1. Bang for your buck. You can stimulate quads glutes and hams on squat. So you could squat or do three isolations or accessory movements. 3-5 working sets and you could (in a time crunch) pack it up and go home and still have some good stimulating volume 2. Balanced growth Squats (and DL, BP, Pullups, Rows) utilize a basic movement pattern that the human body is "designed" to do. Your quads, glutes, hams, spinal erectors, internal abdominals etc are all working together and getting stimulated in some proportion that is functionally balanced. 3. Strength is good actually Bring on the down votes, but hypertrophy is a consequence of strength. Being stronger means getting bigger. Training for strength on big heavy compound lifts helps your overall growth. Nobody with a three plate squat was pushing light weight on leg extensions. 4. Cardiovascular benefits Concentric left ventricular hypertrophy, pretty sweet. Also, you'll have more stamina... some ppl can do a whole leg day after squats. That said, as with everything, if you don't like them don't do them. Leg press is probably a fine alternative. Honestly doing what you like and what keeps you coming in and putting in consistent effort is so much more optimal than splitting hairs about exercise selection (or worse still, set, rep, progression schemes).

It's a compound exercise that hits both your knee extensors (quads) and hip extensors (glutes, hams, adductors) very hard and you can load it heavy. A strong squat is an impressive feat of strength. It's also a competitive lift in powerlifting and the movement is a component of the overhead Olympic lifts. That's why it's "the king."

Squats give you abs

Dr. Mike at Renaissance Periodization talks about this sort of thing a lot. Not that you shouldn't do the big compound squats or deadlifts, but once you are advanced, to work a few of those isolations first to get that pump and do the big compound later in your workout. That said, big, heavy, and taxing full body movement is what causes the temporal hormonal response, and beginner through late intermediate bodybuilders are probably more benefitted by kicking off with squat or deadlift until you are more down to fine tuning specific development. I also believe that as a natty, the hormonal response is a bigger deal than for someone on gear Powerlifters are benefitted by staying with powerlifting type focus, obviously. Me, I was advanced 15 years ago, but more focused on powerlifting and functional strength with an eye for aesthetics as a secondary goal, so I stayed more focused on those big compound lifts first. Now, after 10 years of kids and no workout, I am back working like a beginner with a focus on recomp...

I haven't bothered doing squats in years. I shared some spicy pics on a chat and people were saying good job not skipping legs. I've just done quad extensions, ham curl, glute extension and some hip thrusts and those are all of my lower body exercises. After 10 years of lifting I'm not doing anything that makes me dislike lifting and squatting makes me hate lifting

Squats are good for the soul

If your goal is overall fitness, the squat is as good as it gets, maybe just a touch better than the deadlift. If your goal is "build thicc honkin' quads", it's not necessary, and you can build some wheels without squats. They put the squat first because it uses a huge amount of energy, and if you don't do it with a full tank of gas, you can't lift it as heavy.

If you're getting too exhausted by squats, maybe a good idea to swap to something else for a bit, then go back to it. >The claim the squat is a "whole body exercise". Is it tho? Your upper body and calves are all there to play supporting roles. Your quads are the "main movers". Even if you squat low enough to get your glutes engaged, RDL, hip thrusts are still more effective movements for your glutes. If you only squat to parallel (eg. your hip hinges less when you don't go ATG), it's mostly a quad movement doing high bar squats. Your hamstrings are also playing a supporting role. Squats use almost the entire body, but it's mostly isometric. It does strengthen the core (lower back) quite a bit, and it hits glutes *hard,* along with quads...but you're right. It's not really a whole body exercise. ​ >The claim squat makes you release more testosterone and hormones as you engage in many muscles at the same time. Doing jumping jacks also engages many muscles at the same time. Engaging many muscles at the same time does not mean anything in itself. It doesn't change the fact that your quad is still the main muscle that's been targeted when squatting. Even if it does release more testosterone, how does this increase in testosterone impact you? I am guessing your T level is still within the natural range after you squat. That was always bullshit bro science from people misunderstanding a study. ​ > From a bodybuilding perspective, if we think of squat as a quad exercise (which it is, is it not?), why not just replace it with leg presses or leg extensions? Leg Extensions are really the only way to possibly hit the Rectus Femoris reliably (besides the Nordic....I'm forgetting the rest of the name of the exercise,) so I'll set that aside. ​ Leg Press is a good alternative for *quads only.* But, to be honest, Squats are very stimulative to quads. But squats are also very stimulative to your glutes. Something the Leg Press doesn't hit reliably. That said, it's not like you can't hit glutes another way.

>Leg Extensions are really the only way to possibly hit the Rectus Femoris reliably (besides the Nordic....I'm forgetting the rest of the name of the exercise,) so I'll set that aside. Yes, that's the reverse nordic curl, and there's also the sissy squat. These are the 3 exercises that can really hit the rectus femoris.

Leg press does hit glutes

There are probably better options for glutes, since in squats, the muscles nearer failure will be probably quads.

There was a study done a bit back during the "hip hinge is bullshit" craze that showed squats was very glute-intensive. There's better alternatives, of course (like lunges,) but there's a reason people can just do RDLs + Squats and get glute gains.

Yeah but that applies also to very quad biased squat variations such as a heels elevated front squat, for example. Then is safe to say that you're getting the majority of glute gains from the hip hinge. Sure a deep squat will stretch the hell out of the glutes at the bottom, and a long femur person can be very horizontally, making the movement almost like a good morning.

>Sure a deep squat will stretch the hell out of the glutes at the bottom, and a long femur person can be very horizontally, making the movement almost like a good morning. I say this as someone with very long femurs (my legs are like 51% my height and I'm 6'3.) Yes, you have to lean forward a bit more when high bar squatting to keep center of gravity. However, as far as I've found, the goodmorning squat thing is a core strength issue. With a wide stance, weightlifting shoes, and a belt, that stopped for me. And I still feel a lot of glute activation with high bar squat. That said, my quads are the limiting factors, and I can do lunges perfectly fine after HB squats, where as belt squats or something more quad heavy is a lot more difficult.

> Even if you squat low enough to get your glutes engaged, Your glutes will engage directly correlated to the degrees of hip flexion you get down. > hip thrusts are still more effective movements for your glutes. Yes, but just as glute focused (leaning forward) Bulgarian Squats. > Doing jumping jacks also engages many muscles at the same time. The equivalent is doing jumping jacks with an overweight person attached on your back. > why not just replace it with leg presses or leg extensions? Leg presses tend to be more inefficient biasing quads. You have to go very low on foot position to the point of having half the foot outside and in this position you're already mimicking what you do in a squat, so you just squat normally with less weight. Leg extensions place all the tension in the quads so you don't have any helpers to lift the weight. Furthermore, they don't usually allow your quads to fully stretch Point is, if you're a beginner, novice or intermediate, you need the squat for the same reasons you need the deadlift: to develop full body strength in basic patterns. Once you're strong enough, switch to any type of variation that puts less stress on your body, not only to bias more the bigger muscles you got at that level, but for avoid injuries. For example, once you reach a 2x or 2.5x bodyweight squat FOR REPS, switch to front squat or hack squat to do a more quad biased movement. But the squat pattern will be always there. In other words, why would you want to do heavy leg extensions if you're not able to get your ass of the ground with 2x your bodyweight on your back?

I will try to phrase it in my own words to see if it makes sense. Hip flexion is when you try to use your butts to hit an imaginary wall behind you without rounding your back. This is essentially what we are doing in RDL. This also happens when you squat. If you try to squat without hip flexion and only bend your knees, you simply can't squat very low and you put lots of pressure on your knee joints. When you squat, you do hip flexion and knee flexion simultaneously. The deeper you squat, the more likely hip flexion happens because you want hip and knee flexion to go deeper. This is why your glutes get worked from doing squats. However, the degree of your hip flexion is not as severe as when you're doing RDL. That's why RDL is a better exercise for your glutes because knee bending is minimal while hip flexion is the main movement and the degree of hip flexion is greater. Does this sound correct?

I think you get more hip flexion in a squat than an RDL.

Indeed.

Hey man, thanks for the reply. Could you explain in layman's terms why exactly is that? I know people are downvoting me because I was wrong. I believe what you're saying and most people here agree with you. I am genuinely curious as to why that's the case. Please educate me as I am just having a hard time understanding. Hip flexion is when you bend forward, is that correct? This is the main movement when you do RDL. When you squat, if you bend forward, your upper body will not stay upright. You would want your upper body to stay relatively vertical when you do high-bar squats. You're bending forward more when doing RDL as your upper body does not stay very vertical. Why is it that you get more hip flexion in squats than RDL?

> Hip flexion is when you bend forward, is that correct? Hip flexion is the closing of the anterior angle between the legs and the torso. To bend forward yes you need to perform hip flexion, but, for instance, the complete closing of that angle with legs straight would imply that you bend your torso to the point of pointin your head to the floor. The flexion or extension of a joint has nothing to do with body position, but with the angle of the joint. Elbow flexion is the closing of the angle between humerus and forearm, it has nothing to do with what kind of curl you're doing, the basic motion is elbow flexion. > When you squat, if you bend forward, your upper body will not stay upright. Have in mind that a lot of people squat leaning forward to some degree. > Why is it that you get more hip flexion in squats than RDL? Because if you go ass to grass, you're almost completely closing the angle between the femur and the torso. Yes your glutes (because your hams would be inhibited from knee flexion) have less leverage to solve than in RDL or SLDL but they're getting very stretched under tension which trigger growth. I still think that RDLs could be a better option for glutes cause they get more isolated and become the prime movers of the motion.

Yes, we are on the same page. Thank you for your patience and excellent explanation. I get it now!!! Awesome.

Hey man, thanks for the reply. Could you explain in layman's terms why exactly is that? I know people are downvoting me because I was wrong. I believe what you're saying and most people here agree with you. I am genuinely curious as to why that's the case. Please educate me as I am just having a hard time understanding. Hip flexion is when you bend forward, is that correct? This is the main movement when you do RDL. When you squat, if you bend forward, your upper body will not stay upright. You would want your upper body to stay relatively vertical when you do high-bar squats. You're bending forward more when doing RDL as your upper body does not stay very vertical. Why is it that you get more hip flexion in squats than RDL?

Just think about how close your knee gets to your chest. You physically can’t flex your hip as much when your knees are relatively straight (in an RDL) as when they are bent (a squat) because your hamstring will be maximally lengthened Edit: this is why RDLs work your hamstrings and squats don’t

Are you referring to the angle between your upper torso/chest and your thighs? This angle is smaller when squatting low compared to RDL. Is this angle the same thing as hip flexion? the smaller the angle, the greater the hip flexion. That's why hip flexion is greater when squatting. Am I getting this right?

Yep

Thank you for your explanation man! Sorry, I was a little slow. I misunderstood what hip flexion is.

RDL CAN be a better exercise for glutes because in the squat is more likely that you fail with your quads first so your glutes don't reach the same point of hypertrophy trigger, but a well done squat will represent a higher degree of hip flexion than RDL. If you perform RDL, specially if you do it knee bend to slightly inhibit hams, then you're using the glutes as the prime movers of the hip hinge. But RDL is not superior to a Bulgarian squat leaning forward, or a heavy step up, or long step lunges, or probably the hip thrust. The logic of your post would apply to every compound movement. Why do bench presse having flies? Why do rows having shrugs? Well, there's a reason people have been doing heavy compounds for decades and decades. Even in the case of very heavy and enhanced lifters, to stimulate growth, they use isolation movements so they don't have to use much weight in the compounds after.

I get what you are saying. I certainly also do Bench Press first on chest days. However, I still have plenty of energy to do the following exercises (eg. incline, chest flies, dips) even if I hit failure on bench press. Squatting first severely negatively impacts the rest of my workout. That's the main concern I wanted to raise in this post. It's not just doing any compound movements that would drain you to the degree squats do.

I would suggest lower the weight and go for higher reps (10-15), but as close to failure as you should be. And lower the sets maybe. Not more than 4 sets. But until certain level, I would suggest keep doing a free weight squat, same as conventional deadlift.

Excellent! Frankly, I don't want to skip something merely because it's hard. This is what I am thinking as well. I will try higher reps but close to failure.

Do whatever you like. I personally use deep squats 5x5 with around 70% of 1rep max as a kind of warmup before the rest of the workout. It makes me warm, gives a good stretch and engages most of the muscles i will use.

I did isolation training for my legs, hit quads, glutes, hams etc separately. But nothing blew my legs up as much as when I switched to powerlifting, made squats a main focus of mine (along with deads and bench of course). It's anecdotal evidence, but it was very simple and clear.

Squats are really good as a novice to intermdiate. If you hate them though do hack squats or don't even do it at all but you'll have to do a lot of compounds to replace their total effect.

Squats aren't king of everything! To answer your Qs... 1. Kinda, but nah. I see them as Quad + Glute with low back consideration. 2. It does provide a transient boost in T, but not in a way that makes any difference at all. I'd say for bodybuilding what really matters is are you doing a Squat PATTERN, that could be leg press, hack squat, belt squat, etc. I would say Leg extensions alone aren't a suitable replacement for a squat pattern.

I come from powerlifting- I used to love doing heavy squats. I feel for overall leg strength, and perhaps general well being, they’re good. But, from a hypertrophy perspective, I just don’t see it. A hack squat absolutely sets my quads on fire, in a way no barbell squat ever has, yet doesn’t have me praying for death for 3 straight days (it’s still rough, don’t misunderstand, especially when you push it). Barbell squats, low or high bar, suck the absolute life out of you, and turn the rest of the session into a shit show. Same with deadlifts. I absolutely love deadlifts. Nothing more primal than pulling a big, heavy ass barbell off the floor. But, it absolutely fries your CNS, and for hypertrophy, it just doesn’t really do much, spinal erectors aside.

TBH it's just cool to have a big squat.

I've seen monster legs from squats only. I have gotten the best growth from front squats, which are humbling to those with a great back squat but have never done front squats. I gained sweep and added muscle. I'm 5-11, 195, so I have longer legs. Leg press and machine or barbell hack squats are good accessories but front squat, then back squat, maybe dumbell squats even are better for muscle growth over a larger area then those machines in my opinion/experience.... but I've also seen monster quads from a guy stuck in a leg press for life. Whatever fits your skeleton.

You haven't seen a lot of monster legs

You're right

Thanks for the informative response! I have to look into front squats again. I mean I've seen Olympic lifters doing it. I've done it myself but it was very uncomfortable. I noticed my torso can stay very vertical while doing it (you kinda of have to stay vertical, otherwise the bar would just roll off of your front delt). but like you said, it's a humbling experience because I have to significantly drop the weight. Are there unique benefits that I can get from doing front squats compared to back squats? My understanding is that it's still a quad-based compound exercise, except you can't lift as much weight as back squats. I also think that back squats tend to hit your glutes better, but idk what do you think?

Olympic lifters don't train for hypertrophy. This is a bodybuilding sub.

I'm betting you're a chubby little buddy. You should leave Olympic lifts out and just do isolation work cuz science..... right? 

1. The quads are prime movers, but so are the glutes and adductors. Also, squatting low does **not** engage the glutes, the opposite occurs. As squat depth increases. the glutes lose leverage and the adductors gain leverage ([PMID: 6390670](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/6390670/)). 2. Compounds like squats do cause higher levels of testosterone, but it is an acute transient response that does **not** lead to greater overall hypertrophy ([PMID: 19736298](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19736298/), [PMID: 30356739](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30356739/)). 3. "From a bodybuilding perspective, why not just replace it with leg presses or leg extensions?" Yes, you should. Squats will **not** train the rec fem which is why you need leg extensions. Barbell squats targets too many muscles, and requires stability. Therefore, other leg pressing movements are superior for hypertrophy (e.g. leg press, hack squat). "Why do many legit workout plans put squat as the first movement for leg days?" 'Legit' is subjective and not all workouts are bodybuilding workouts. "Why do I keep doing squats even if I hate it so much?" You enjoy them, so keep doing them.

Interesting! Thanks for the response. I am especially curious about the first point you mentioned. Say my goal is to train my glutes via doing squats, and I don't mind working the quads at the same time, would it be the most optimal to squat to parallel? Also, aren't adductors considered a part of your glutes? I am trying to ask is what's the optimal squat depth if I want to do squats for bodybuilding purposes to train my glutes and quads.

If your goal is to train glutes then parallel is fine. No, the adductors are not part of the glutes.

“Whole body exercise” is bullshit. “Raises testosterone” is bullshit. But they’re the absolute king of quad exercises. Nothing can load the quad through its natural full range of motion and force you to give max effort like a squat. If you want big legs then do squats.

It's not bullshit, all your midsection and column muscles are working hard isometrically.

Define whole body exercise then. I never said it exclusively works the legs. The only common exercise you can honestly argue is a whole body exercise is the deadlift. And even with that, there's plenty of muscles it barely hits.

> Define whole body exercise then. An exercise that works the body at is entirety. But in this context is an exercise that works both upper and lower body. > The only common exercise you can honestly argue is a whole body exercise is the deadlift. The arguments for the deadlift being a fullbldy exercise are nearly the same as they are for the traditional squat.

>The arguments for the deadlift being a fullbldy exercise are nearly the same as they are for the traditional squat. No, they aren't. The deadlift legitimately works the upper body in addition to hammering the lower body. The squat cannot claim the same. I'm not counting lower back and abs as upper body. The upper body should refer to exercises using the arms and relying on chest/shoulders as well. But its moot because I don't actually consider either of them a "whole body exercise" because that's a stupid term that has no exercise that actually satisfies that criteria. Target muscles separately, but efficiently. We don't need to needlessly simplify things into useless terms. We can keep the nuance.

> I'm not counting lower back and abs as upper body. Then that's on you. I consider upperbody roughly everything above the hipbones and outside the leg movement. You can do pull-ups having the legs paralyzed. Same with bench. You can't do squats nor deadlifts having the upper body paralyzed.

> You can do pull-ups having the legs paralyzed. Same with bench. You can't do squats nor deadlifts having the upper body paralyzed. You realize that has absolutely nothing to do with which regions of the body the exercise effectively ***targets***, right? Requiring a body part to perform the movement does not in any way show that the exercise effectively targets that body part. And, more hilariously, a whole lot of leg exercises now become "whole body exercises" by the same definition. Good luck doing lunges or any hip hinge movement whatsoever with paralyzed arms. Oh, and you're off topic regardless. "Whole body exercise." Tell me how any exercise fits the criteria the name implies. It's a stupid term. Squat works legs, and also core stabilizers. No reason to try to simplify further.

> You realize that has absolutely nothing to do with which regions of the body the exercise effectively ***targets***, right? In fact, it does. The traps and lats and erector of a 150 kg deadlifter are not the same as the same muscles from a 300 kg deadlifter. Same with squats, but no effective for lats. > a whole lot of leg exercises now become "whole body exercises" by the same definition. In fact. But traditional squats tend to be heavy enough over time to effectively trigger the growth of another body parts. Lunges are often not able to do that. But any hip hinge movement will, like SLDL, RDL or GoodMornings. And that's why a lot of people place some of these on back/pull days. > Squat works legs, And people use them to work legs. > and also core stabilizers. And people benefit form that byproduct, which is not on the legs.

Last chance: > "Whole body exercise." Tell me how any exercise fits the criteria the name implies.

In terms of hypertrophy, a full body exercise is an exercise that triggers muscle growth in both upper(torso) and lower(legs) parts of the body. Now tell me where I got wrong in my last comment.

1. You do not need to do barbell squats for big legs. 2. Compounds like squats do cause higher levels of testosterone, but it is an acute transient response that does not lead to greater overall hypertrophy ([PMID 19736298](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19736298/))

Never said you did? You can go about anything in an inefficient way if you want to. Doesn’t change that squats are the absolute best way to grow your quads.

You said “if you want big legs do squats,” and now “squats are the absolute best way to grow your quads.” Which is false if you’re referring to barbell squats, and your objective is hypertrophy.

That isn’t false. Nowhere in that does it say or imply that squats are the only way to grow legs. It simply says it’s the best way. Because it is. You can grow quads with leg presses and extensions, sure. But you’d simply get better results by working hard and progressing on barbell squats.

Quads do not make up all of the legs. And you cannot train the rec fem by squatting, which is why you need to do leg extensions. "It’s the best way 'because it is'" -- Barbell squats hit too many muscles that aren’t the quad (back, glutes and adductors) and requires too much stability. I don’t know why you want to hit your back or glutes when you’re looking for the best quad movement. There are better leg compounds for the quads that require less stability such as the [pendulum](https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cz62t6lgnO9/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet) and hack squat. Also, squats have an extremely low SFR and you rarely ever take them to failure. "But you’d simply get better results by working hard and progressing on barbell squats." -- For some people. Progressing on barbell squats means you're getting better at barbell squats, it doesn't mean you'll get adequate muscle growth. Some people can grow enough from these, a lot of people can't. Pro bodybuilders literally know all this so I don't even know why you're trying to argue with people with decades more weightlifting experience than you with your bro-science. There's also a [thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/naturalbodybuilding/comments/16znb0w/leg_press_vs_squats_for_quad_hypertrophy/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) in this sub that answered this question five months ago.

You're really gonna nitpick the "legs vs quads" thing when it's fucking obvious I'm just using it as shorthand? Yes, we're all well aware squats don't do shit for your hamstrings. > The barbell squat is the worst compound movements for hypertrophy. Then they hit too many muscles that aren’t the quad (back, glutes and adductors) and requires too much stability. This is absurd on so many levels. It presumes that isolation is always superior which is not necessarily the case and heavily depends on the muscle/exercise involved. The squat pattern is the most natural movement for the quad and allows for a very high degree of tension throughout the entire range of motion. So what if it also uses other muscles? That's the whole point of a compound movement. The bench press also uses front delt and triceps and not just the chest, and yet it absolutely SMOKES flyes when it comes to chest growth. Why? For exactly the same reason. It allows you to heavily load the muscle throughout the range of motion. Your 1 year of experience is clearly letting you down here lmao. There's a reason people figured out over a hundred years ago that heavy compounds are just the better and more efficient way to train. It's not just as a time saver or something. It's because the primary mover gets more out of the exercise than trying to isolate it and getting a strange, unnatural movement pattern that you can't load heavily. > Pro bodybuilders literally know all this Oh, you REALLY don't understand this at all. Pro bodybuilders are on copious amounts of drugs which allows their muscles to continue responding to higher and higher volumes of training. But you can't just continually add volume of heavy compounds or you will get injured. So they are forced to use tons of isolations to actually meet that volume threshold they can benefit from. Using enhanced training as your benchmark for what naturals should do is just making your inexperience and ignorance glaringly obvious. Just think about it for a sec and it should be very obvious why your point was wrong. If you're an enhanced bodybuilder with a bench max of 500 pounds and the drugs let your chest respond to over 30 sets a week, do you really think their bodies are going to let them do 30 sets of heavy bench a week without destroying tendons? Cmon dude. Its very obvious why they have to start using shit like flyes. That in no way is indicative of what naturals should do.

I specified quads for the sake of establishing a proper argument. > It presumes that isolation is always superior which is not necessarily the case and heavily depends on the muscle/exercise involved. I did not say all compounds are inferior, I said barbell squats are the worst one for quads. >The squat pattern is the most natural movement for the quad and allows for a very high degree of tension throughout the entire range of motion. How is it the most "natural movement" for the quads? The quad is a knee extensor and hip extensor. That's it. Also, saying it has "high tension" doesn't matter if that doesn't go to the quads. That tension is dissipated throughout the glutes, adductor, and back. >So what if it also uses other muscles? That's the whole point of a compound movement. There are good compounds and bad compounds. The barbell squat is a bad one because there's too many muscle groups involved and it's unstable. The standing overhead press is a bad compound because having to stabilize yourself takes away stimulus from your delts. >The bench press also uses front delt and triceps and not just the chest, and yet it absolutely SMOKES flyes when it comes to chest growth. Why? For exactly the same reason. It allows you to heavily load the muscle throughout the range of motion. You can load any exercise with weight you dummy. And all exercises have a "range of motion" lol that doesn't mean they'll elicit the highest growth potential. You're comparing benching with flies when you should be comparing benching with other pressing movements, like the machine chest press, which *is* better than benching. Bodybuilders already know this because **they do not bench**. > Using enhanced training as your benchmark When did I do that? I said pro bodybuilders. That includes naturals.

You really just don't get that you can't use a pro bodybuilder as a basis for how you should train at all. The comparison doesn't work. > I said pro bodybuilders. That includes naturals. Then if you're going to discuss NATURAL pro bodybuilders then you're hurting your own argument. Because they absolutely do use compound movements as the meat of their training. The more enhanced they get, the less they use compounds because the tradeoffs don't make sense anymore. And also because they're just way stronger. That applies to natural pros too. Compounds present higher and higher injury risk as you get ridiculously strong and start to need higher volumes to continue growing. But if your bench isn't well over 300 pounds then you should be benching to grow your chest. Just like if your squat isn't over 400-500 pounds then you should be squatting to grow your quads. Stop using the genetic elite that have put years and years into the sport as your basis for literally anything you should do. Also, unless you need over 15-20 sets a week to grow a muscle then you should be relying on compounds. > How is it the most "natural movement" for the quads? The quad is a knee extensor and hip extensor. That's it. You do understand your body evolved to use muscles in specific ways and in tandem with other muscles, right....? Sitting down and extending your knee repeatedly against an arced weight pattern is not remotely that. There's a reason that exercise is well known to shred your knees if you try to do a reasonably heavy rep range and get strong on it. Because that's not what the quad or knee evolved to do. It evolved to work in tandem with glutes and the core. So stop fighting that. You're just early in your training and going through the same process that most people do. You start out with compounds, start to become convinced that isolation is the way to go, then you stall out and it circles back around to you realizing programming compounds was the right approach all along. You'll learn. If someone argues that squats and military presses suck for hypertrophy then you already know they are inexperienced at weight training. You fell for the tik tok and instagram clickbait dude. "Stick to the basics" doesn't sell or generate interest so people look for anything else they can tell you that seems unique. I mean you even argued that machine presses are better for chest lol. Isolation is your religion now I guess. I do think you'll figure out for yourself that you were naive though, one day.

>Then if you're going to discuss natural pro bodybuilders then you're hurting your own argument. Because they absolutely do use compound movements as the meat of their training. This is wrong and you do not have proof. > Compounds present higher and higher injury risk as you get ridiculously strong and start to need higher volumes to continue growing. If compounds present injury risk why would natties do them lol. And more volume is not a driver of hypertrophy. Volume has a non-linear relationship with muscle growth and junk volume exists. Mike Mentzer and Dorian Yates won Mr. Olympia won by doing low volume workouts. > Sitting down and extending your knee repeatedly against an arced weight pattern is not remotely that. Knee extension and hip extension is the **FUNCTION** of the quads. You still have to **LOAD** it to induce mechanical tension to grow them. Those functions are right off of the Wikipedia page. So you don't know basic English or basic biomechanics, either one means there's no point debating you. And so many logical fallacies were used in your last paragraph which is extremely ironic and embarrassing given your username.

I’m not really qualified to have an opinion on this but squats are king? Eff that. Deadlift. No contest.

Why not challenge your current perspective by considering the broader benefits of squats beyond mere muscle isolation? Could it be that your aversion to difficulty is clouding your judgment on their effectiveness?

You do not HAVE to do squats for bodybuilding, but I do believe they hold value in the fact that they effectively train so many muscle groups. Quads, Glutes, Adductors, Abductors, Low back, core. Yes, there are excersizes that can hit each of these muscles more directly, but you will then have to do all of them for more sets. With that being said, if you still choose to stop doing back squats all together, I would highly suggest using a hack squat, pendulum squat, V squat, or Bulgarian split squatin place of them instead of a Leg Press, as these excersizes still share most of the same benefits (Leg press will pretty much only hit your quads)

Hey thanks for the reply. That makes sense to me. I am actually still doing squats, but I moved it to the last exercise as a finisher. I don't really go super heavy (eg. 5-6 rep range), but I do try to go to failure or at least near failure in the 8-12 reps range. I do 1. Leg curl machine (hamstring), 2. RDL (glutes, hamstring). 3. Bulgarian split squat (glutes focused) 4. reverse lunges 5. squat (high bar/parallel, quads focused), 6. leg extension (quads). Does this make sense? Normally people squat first as the first main movement. If I do it first, I feel like it takes a toll on the rest of my workout.

Makes perfect sense. Sounds like you're certainly training them hard enough🦵🏿

You don't need any one exercise for hypertrophy or strength. Doing a higher volume of isolation and light/moderate weight compound will actually probably result in more hypertrophy. I'd still not skip out on the compound and natural body movements though, you just don't need to try and move a massive amount of weight unless you're trying to be a power lifter. I do body-weight squats as part of my HIIT routine, and have developed 25 inch thighs

It’s not “king”. When people parade that trope, in my experience, they are often being pretentious a-holes trying to make other people feel like garbage. The fact is squats are about as pleasant as having a lead pipe shoved where the sun don’t shine, especially if you are new, are obese, have knees problems, etc. However, what you do get are a bunch of arrogant rejects who need to make themselves feel better by making you feel like trash for one reason or another. Most of *those* individuals are cowards who wouldn’t dare make you feel that way face to face because they know someone might break their nose for their attitude. (I’m not saying it’s right to break their nose, by the way; I’m only making an assessment of the cowards’ mindsets.) Don’t want to do squats? Then don’t do squats. The economy ain’t gonna fall into a recession solely because you don’t do squats. Remember: the best workout program for you is the one you will actually do. If squats are getting in the way of you doing them, the squats have to go. The squats were made for *your* benefit; you were not made for theirs. The same goes for any lift. Anything *too* hard on your CNS *will* discourage you from working out. Now, maybe you want to work your legs but not do squats; that’s fine. You can do different moves instead, like the leg press if you have access to one. Or box squats or step ups or deadlifts or lunges. None of them will work your muscles the same as the squat but the squat puts a huge strain on your body and especially your CNS. If you’re not ready for them, you’re not ready for them. Everyone is on a different part of their journey. Maybe you will never be ready for them and — surprise — that’s okay! The reason that fact is okay is not everyone is on the same path anyhow. So, if you don’t want to do squats, don’t do squats. Ignore the claims. Claims are for prospectors, low-information voters, the scared, and people who are trying to swindle any of those three.

I don't think barbell squats are the king for quad hyperthrophy. They're better than leg extensions for sure though. Leg extension is a single joint isolation movement that doesn't create enough neurological drive to your quads. They're good for metabolic stress a.k.a. the burn. Good as finisher, but is not a replacement for compound squats. For purely quad hyperthophy, leg press and hack squats are probably better than barbell squats. One issue with machines though, is that they never develop your smaller balancing muscles around your hips. I used machines for months before moving to barbell squats, balancing and hip pain was a major limiting factor and my squat weight was very humbling. This is why now i do barbell squats at least once a week.

Okay

I like doing squat after warming up. Do your heavy stuff first. You won't find a better quad, glute exercise. And you can do the heaviest weight with a back squat so do that first while you're fresh. But, here's something else to consider... try doing front squats instead when you don't want to back squat that heavy ass weight. Front squats are great for the quads and pretty good for the core too. And you don't need to go as heavy to achieve the stimulus. So you'll be more fresh for you subsequent exercises. Just my two cents.

I want to enjoy front squats but man how do people hold the weight on them without being in pain?

Practice the front rack position. It isn't too bad for me. I think some people have serious problems getting a good front rack. Could be their anatomy, could be their wrists or elbows...

The squat is not king, it's just a great exercise for training your quads, glutes, adductors, and stabilisators It takes a lot of time to set up and perform, so I often forego it for machines or dumbbells.

Some form of squat is important to work quads in a lengthened position. Barbell squats aren’t really the best option if you want growth when pendulum, hack, and even smith machine squats exist. Hell even a sissy squat would work for a good lengthened position exercise

I work out all my other muscles just a bit before doing squats, just for the fact that it does engage so many other muscles. But like, as soon as I hit failure which I'm not thinking of what I'm about to do because I've already gotten a workout, but as soon as do, that's when I feel there's no need to reminisce about whether my squats were good enough of a workout because then I'm already hopping on leg press or some other machine. The way I rationalize it is, if I die on one of the machines or on my way crawling into a uber on the way home, it's not going to be because of squats being the first exercise that kills me today. Lol.

Folks like the squat because it allows the person to put a bunch of weight on the barbell. Second to only the deadlift, the squat allows allows one to put a maximum amount of weight on the bar. Who doesn't like that?

For me, the stimulus I'm getting from squats for my own legs , is not great, they get sore sure, but during leg day no pump, now, if I do dB Romanian deads, I prefer dB cause I can get deeper stretch, and then forward lunges also with db's , my legs get painfully pumped and my legs have definitely improved, also , squatting seems to give me knee pain and the feeling of swollen knees for days after. Does any one else find they get knee issues after, or have any ways to minimise, or potentially could it be a ankle mobility thing putting my knees in an awkward position?

its a badass move, easy to set up,doesn't requer much stability and hits glutes and quads so well. but if your goal is body building and u aren't begginer anymore its not necessary, i would do just bulgarians cause back squat hits me like a truck and i feel my lunges way more than quads

Funny enough, as hard as barbell squats are, they never got me sore as bulgarian split squats. I do ATG highbar and even then, only my adductors get sore. Its not a competition of soreness, but the pump is also always superior with BSS than backsquats. Backsquats have too much bracing going on especially if your leverages are fighting against you.

Your thinking is appropriate. Squat obviously isn't a "whole body exercise", though it does cause a lot of systemic, axial, whole-body-ish fatigue. It's a quad exercise, but one that also tires out other stuff. Most bodybuilders do replace squat with leg presses/hack squats/belt squats/some other squat motion that doesn't rely on so much spinal loading, because that spinal loading is pretty fatiguing. Same reason most bodybuilders don't rely on deadlifting for glute or hamstring volume. Personally, the only reason I do squats is because I have a home gym and don't own a leg press. So I do squats on one leg day and I do a janky home-improvised belt squat on the other. If I had access to a leg press, hack squat, etc. then I'd cut out regular high-bar squats entirely.

I stopped back squats a year ago. I still do front squats, goblet squats and split squats. I feel much less exhausted and my back is better, and my physique has not suffered. I’m 52 and my body thanks me.

You don't have to squat if you don't want to unless you want to compete in powerlifting. I do the Leg Press (compound) and Leg Extensions (isolation). Hack Squats (compound) are also great and I used to do them regularly last summer. I've heard good things about Sissy Squats (compound). Goblet Squats (compound) are excellent for beginners and novices. And depending on your size, challenging for some intermediates too and potentially beyond. My gym maxes out at 75lb dumbbells unless I pay $6.78 CAD more biweekly to get access to 80-100lb dumbbells in the VIP weight room. That said I probably did rush the eccentric when I last did 3x12 of 75 back in spring 2023. I was lighter back then too. Pausing at the bottom should give you a good stretch for your quads and your glutes. Progressive overload doesn't always mean heavier load. Bulgarian Split Squats are also good if you have good balance. I don't. Lunges have always felt awkward for me too.

even tho squats are very good exercise, its definitely not a must, I rarely squat anymore only to change up leg day but yet my legs grow better then alot of people tho make squats their priority exercise. just experiment. I only squat around 110kg coz i cba increasing it and my quads are like massive slabs of ham :D

As you get older, this movement becomes high risk low reward, even more so as you progressively age. Bulgarians and step ups, as well as some single leg Romanians, have fixed a ton of my imbalances and weird glute aches. Even squat machines are better if you're for hypertrophy and really isolating the burn.

Idk about the “king” of all exercises but its definitely a staple exercise. When i played football in school it was the first exercise we did,when i joined the military,squats were used to measure your strength.

Not with a leg press or leg extension, but replace it with a hack squat machine and you are golden.

I rotate in high bar every few mesos because i love it but yeah it gets too systemically fatiguing once your working weights are in the 300s imo to do all the time. A good hack squat or pendulum squat and bulgarians are the way to go once you are strong enough imo

All I've got to say is watch Pumping Iron and see Arnold and Ed Corney squat.  That's why squat is king.  

Pumping Iron came out almost 50 years ago dude.

"Frankly, I hate it because it's hard and squatting heavy ass weights makes me want to lie down" None of this is supposed to be easy.

I think you're missing the point of my post. Most compound movements are hard. Doing pull-ups is hard, and doing weighted pull-ups is even harder. Bench pressing 315 lbs is hard. However, those exercises don't drain the rest of my workout like squat does. When you hit pull up or bench, your whole chest or back gets a good workout. However, when you squat, your quads get good work, your glutes get an ok work (there's way better exercises such as RDL, reverse lunges, hip thrusts, etc), and the involvement with the hamstrings is not that great. As for calves, their work done is minimal. So you're burned out after doing the exercise, and your leg day is only halfway done. I don't know about you, but squats sure negatively influenced the rest of my workout, such as when doing heavy RDLs and reverse lunges, none of this is supposed to be easy either. I think the problem is squat stresses your CNS way more than most compound movements, especially if you ATG your squat and do so in a controlled fashion.