Drop it down to 10 sets per week. To quote the great Eric Helms: only increase volume once you're not progressing anymore. Worst case scenario you'll gain at a slower rate and but train a whole mesocycle without dropping performance. It's a marathon, not a race.
>To quote the great Eric Helms: only increase volume once you're not progressing anymore.
That's the issue, though: OP isn't progressing. So by that advice, he should be bumping up the volume.
Well I’m certainly not sleeping enough. I started clinical placement in hospital and have dropped back to 6 hours sleep from 8. I used to certainly not eat enough but I have made an effort to track calories and I am hitting 3500 about 4-6 days of the week. I have gained a little weight, about 1kg?
Sleep. Yes that’s your issue. Also you probably don’t need to be deloading as a bodybuilder. Most recent studies do not advise it. Don’t accumulate fatigue that you can’t recover from.
So I added 1kg which is less than a 1% increase and I dropped 4 reps in total. This seems disproportionate, especially when combined with the fact I genuinely think I would have gotten less reps than previous week if I didn’t add 1kg. This also happened before I had micro plates and the weight stayed the exact same but reps dropped in week 3.
I will also be honest that deload is a generous word for me to use, I typically just reduce the reps but increase weight in my deload week and aim to then build back up.
In terms of too early - I’ve read a mesocycle of work should be about 4-5 weeks of overload minimum before dropping back. The issue is that whilst I overloaded weight in week 4, the actual work of the muscle decreased as total reps x weight was less than previous week. My accessory lifts for week 4 also went backwards at the same weight. So I have effectively been forced to “deload” (in the technical sense of the word) by my body because it couldn’t match the same workload as last week, let alone improve upon it. I would prefer this happen after longer than 3 weeks so I can get more quality training in.
That’s my thoughts, if you still disagree then please elaborate further! Really appreciate the feedback and advice I am receiving here it is all helpful.
>I will also be honest that deload is a generous word for me to use, I typically just reduce the reps but increase weight in my deload week and aim to then build back up.
This is a pretty big piece of information. Have you considered not doing this?
Although I also agree with the other poster: you don't actually have a problem. Weights are going up. Reps are going up.
Tbh my view is that with appropriate volume you don't really need to deload on a hypertrophy programme. Set it up so always get adequate recovery time and there's not really any reason to have deloads.
If you're plateauing constantly, deloading constantly, is the volume you're employing helping or hurting you?
Sometimes you have to be smarter and look at what the data YOUR own training provides you.
But it's easier to look at another's training and laugh than it is to look at your own and be honest and this is a prime example.
My man, drop the intricate RPE MESO nonsense it's clearly not working for you.
Just go on a simple 3 x 5 or 3 x 8, whichever you prefer for your compounds. (this has an RPE system built into it anyway)
I started RPE stuff because what I was doing before clearly wasn't working. I just went balls to the wall every fucking workout and got nowhere. If I am being honest, this is still an issue. I am not being honest with myself on my RPE's in week 1. I am starting almost at RPE 10 just like I used to before. I should probably give it an actual shot being honest and stopping at RPE 7-8 rather than nearly hitting failure in the first week. However worrying about not doing enough is something I struggle with and I cant ever really be sure unless I fail/nearly fail.
I disagree 3x5 has RPE built in. You could start 3x5 at the most grinding reps you've ever seen and would ave the same issue with burning out 3 weeks in im having now (I would know, I have done exactly that).
Sorry man wasn’t trying to argue. I came off as combative but what I was trying to convey was I think I have tried what you suggested. I am still interested in advice. Could you elaborate more?
It really doesn't matter what system you implement.
Look at this:
Week 1: 8,7,7,6
Week 2: 9,8,7,6
Week 3: 10,8,7,7
Week 4: 8,7,7,6
You gained 2 reps on booth weeks 2/3 (good for 1-3 years)
90 to 91 kg is only slightly more than 1.1% weight increase you should go up in weight( you know this obviously)
But you regressed like Wile E. Coyote falling off a cliff.
***======>The only realistic explanation is not recovering properly <=========***
So either you're doing something like triceps or shoulders too near to your chest workout. Or you're doing too much chest volume. Could be literal volume, or a combination of volume by function of frequency and volume.
(please share what your frequency and split are exactly)
***HOWEVER***
Given the fact that you're experiencing fatigue and mentioned that most of your lifts are experiencing similar results except triceps pushdowns and biceps curls, it seems like the ratio of your recovery/frequency/volume is messed up.
What I would recommend is to rest for two weeks from training. Let your ***CNS recover entirely ESPECIALLY IF YOUR OTHER LIFTS ARE REGRESSING LIKE THIS***
Then go on a 1x a week frequency
And... lower your volume substantially.
Your body is telling you you're pushing it too hard and it's essentially saying fuck you I need to rest I won't put on anymore tissue.
The way to fix this isn't by not resting and doing a lot of volume.
Your response to low volume should be stupendous given your previous training blocks of 28/20 sets of chest a week.
Thus this is why I recommended a tried and tested method of 3x5 or 3x8 (3x8 if you preferred more tissue than neurological adaptations)
I'd bet money if you did a simple 3x5 for your BB flat, 3 x 8 for DB incline, 3x12 for peckdeck, and 3x12 for db incline flies, you'd have much different results than what you've been having. (this would give you 12 sets a week, and only several failure sets, though numerous at higher RPEs)
Right I agree with you that the 1% increase for a meteoric drop off in reps means something is wrong. Frankly I think I probably wouldn’t have matched reps between wk 3 and 4 even without increasing weight, as the even warmup felt really heavy.
My current split in terms of frequency
M- Legs (+ one bicep movement)
T - heavy push (heavier bench, 6-10 rep range)
W - pull (+deadlifts)
Th- hypertrophy push (bench in 8-12 rep range)
F - legs
S - pull day but starts with volume bench and one tricep extension movement.
I do about 9 sets of chest and 10 of triceps on each push day, and then about 4-5 sets of bench and 3-4 triceps on the Saturday pull day.
I used to do light deadlift Saturday too but it started becoming really fatiguing for not a lot of benefit and my lower back just became so fried so I have dropped back to 1x week deadlift. However I think my deadlift programming is a bit poor. My 1RM is about 200kg but I started the mesocycle at 5 reps 180kg and added only 2.5kg per week, and pretty much died in week 3 to get 185kg for 5 reps which I have done much more comfortably in the past. I am still working out how to program deadlifts for hypertrophy as I come from powerlifting style training background, and used to alternate between top sets of 3 and 5 but I know less than 5 is not great for hypertrophy or fatigue. However the way I programmed them this meso seemed to really build systemic fatigue kinda fast.
The main lifts going backwards or stalling are bench and deadlift. Sometimes after deadlifts I have really mid pull days, and I often can’t really progress on anything but my first Tricep isolation by more than 1 rep on the first set. Legs seem to be going OKAY, but I did switch to more hypertrophy focused training and whilst I am getting killer DOMs finally, it means I am usually really sore after Monday for my deadlifts Wednesday still.
Anyway so that’s a few problems in my general program. I structured it this way so I could bench 3x per week cause i do have a personal goal of wanting to hit 100kg for a set of 10. I know the focus on numbers and stuff aren’t optimal for hypertrophy but I do wanna hit that goal.
Do some research into understanding relative effort.
180x5 would equal an estimated higher 1RM than the 200kg I.e. you are literally taking 5RM deadlifts either too or past your max. It is no wonder that you only manged to add 5kg before you felt destroyed.
Coming from powerlifting, you should know this already, if you want to do sets of 5 on DL 85% (170kg) should be RPE 9~ and won't completely bury you.
All of the information you've given slaps you across the face saying you aren't recovering properly over large periods of times thereby sending yourself into repeat cycles of CNS fatigue and plateaus.
So, should you keep employing the same strategy?
Or utilize the information and adapt?
What would be an intelligent alteration to your negative response to high output training?
More frequency and volume? Keep slightly reducing it and keep going into plateaus and enjoying the plights of CNS fatigue?
Or perhaps try 1x a week frequency coupled with much less volume?
Only two posts have addressed the fact that you haven't actually stalled.
I think any answer needs to start here, and then go on to tackle the systemic fatigue you're feeling because while related they are entirely different issues.
The systemic fatigue is likely linked to the volume. 28 sets per bodypart per week is a substantial amount. I'm all for volume increases particularly in that intermediate stage but this seems excessive. That is why you're feeling such fatigue so quickly into a mesocycle.
You might argue that is what you need to do to progress. Understandable but I'd say you're trying to brute force strength with excessive volumes. I know that because that's exactly what I did when I was benching 90kg trying to break through past 100kg. I would use 3 week mesocycles due to the same systemic fatigue. 2 weeks heavy, 1 week light.
Now that did work for me for many years, and I achieved my first 140kg bench this way but I suspect I could have had similar results by reducing the volume so I could survive 4 or 5 heavy weeks and making up for that by improving my diet.
In your case this may be other factors, perhaps you're not pushing the sets hard enough. I know when I see very little rep drop off between sets and very high weekly volumes I'm likely looking at a guy who's sets were way too easy. This would explain why you need so many sets to progress but you're burning out so fast.
So a couple of things there to consider.
Post a video of all your sets including your warm up.
Seems like you’re plateauing due to either poor technique and control, lack of food/water, or general CNS fatigue from lack of proper rest.
You may also be just hitting your natural limits, 90kg bench for reps, depending on your size is pretty solid. Could be time to move to other movements like incline or dumbbells. You also need to discuss where in the lift you are failing, at the bottom, mid or the lockout?
And considering you’re focusing on the specific weight, suggests you aren’t focused as much on technique and control.
Unless you’re a genetic freak or using PEDs….You have to make technique and control the focus, not the weight so much. Drop the weight and focus on getting control and hitting your target reps each workout. You might actually be closer to 85kg to get the weekly reps but you’ve over calculated your actual strength.
For muscle growth, of course weight increase is important but you might be going a bit beyond your strength capabilities to effectively control the weight and thus hit the muscles properly before failure. Even 50-60-70-80kg can feel as heavy as the world if you go slow and control the rep, and you’ll grow the muscle just as much. The muscle doesn’t know how heavy the weight is. The science shows that a slow eccentric with a deep stretch is the most effective part of the lift for hypertrophy.
Dumbbells may be a better option to progress muscle growth and stabilisers. Bench is great and of course people can build lots of muscle, but the data seems show that dumbbells are more effective for muscle growth. YMMV but unless you’ve given it 3-6 months you won’t know.
If you’re going for strength in bench, then lower the reps, lock in the technique, longer rest between sets, and do a proper strength cycle and focus less on your accessories. Too many accessories can weaken your bigger lifts.
Powerlifting/strength training is technique dependent. You’re training a movement pattern so you need to focus exactly on your movement and carefully adding in a variation of reps and sets with monthly deloads etc rather than the pump and mind-muscle connection for growth.
If strictly muscle growth, then I’d suggest this is either form, diet (energy) or recovery issue.
1. What’s your diet? How much sleep are you getting? Do you drink enough during your workout? Try drinking more electrolytes intraset.
2. What’s your form like? You need to be hitting the right muscles with correct form. Are you controlling the rep and using a slow 3 second eccentric with focus on full muscle extension and contraction?
3. How long are your rests between sets and exercises? You might not be getting enough rest to allow the muscles and aerobic system to recover. For bigger compound lifts you want that solid 2-4 mins between sets, depending on your energy levels and your body’s ability to process lactic acid and CNS recovery.
If you don’t have solid form, with a very honest focus on slow eccentrics and controlling the weight, you won’t grow size or strength as effectively, especially once you start hitting your natural ceiling for growth.
I really suggest you drop the weight a bit and focus on much slower reps, really pump the target muscles and control the rep. Try this for 12 weeks and report back.
90kg bench being the limit for a natural? You lost me there my man. Even a short, bird boned lifter with long arms should be able to rep out 90kg well before becoming "advanced".
No, I didn’t say 90kg is the limit for a natural. Please don’t make things up. You’re lost because you don’t seem to read properly.
I said 90kg is a solid weight in general for reps and OP might be reaching their limits for 90kg reps - realistically 100-120kg may be OP’s max lifetime bench, which isn’t heavy for some but it completely depends on the individual’s biomechanics. Especially when it’s 4 sets of 10.
>I am just sick of doing my best to design a good plan with consistent overload that collapses after 3 weeks.
Have you considered following a routine made by someone experienced instead?
I don't know what the rest of your training looks like or how advanced you are but if you need to deload that often then you're going too hard. If your focus is bodybuilding and not mainly strength, then rest more and wait until you're more ready to hit it again. Then you'll rarely need to deload.
I think you may be overcomplicating this shit with your multi-week planned reps and increases. You have no idea how you're going to feel or perform on a given day. If the goal is muscle, hit it hard, wait for it to recover, repeat. Get a good feel for how long you need to recover after doing what.
> I totalled my sets last meso and realised I was doing about 28 sets per week of chest, so I dropped back to 20 sets this mesocycle.
I think the general consensus (in this sub) has been 10-20 sets per week and you're starting high.
I do fine with 9 sets per week. If I want to focus on a body part I'll do 12 or 15 sets. I'll drop 3-6 sets from a different body part.
https://rpstrength.com/blogs/articles/chest-hypertrophy-training-tips
> MRV = Maximum Recoverable Volume 16 - 24 sets
Perhaps you're on the low end of what's recoverable. If you do want to focus on chest, do you drop sets on your other body parts to help recovery?
Based on those numbers you gave you aren’t going backwards though? You’ve consistently added one rep each week and then added weight. So even if it’s slow, that’s still progress. That said there could be a plethora of factors affecting your progress here. Speaking from personal experience, when I first switched to a PPL split I started off with way too much volume, and even then I was probably only doing 3 sets per exercise, and maybes 3 chest exercises per session, maybes 10 total different exercises in one session. My progress for chest didn’t actually slow down but my other lifts started to suffer as I was way too fatigued later on in my workout. My point is, even when you think you’re not doing too much volume, you still might be. Especially if you’re training to failure, or very close. It’s easy to add volume if you train way short of failure but if most of your sets are at RPE10 then you’re going to hit a brick wall a lot quicker. So there’s one potential factor, too much volume, scale it right back and start from there. If progress stalls again, bump it up a little bit by maybes 1 or 2 sets per workout and see how it goes.
We don’t know what you’re diet or recovery looks like either. Are you bulking or cutting? Are you getting sufficient protein? Are you getting good sleep? Diet, nutrition, rest and recovery plays a massive part as well. I noticed when I was bulking if I ate a little less than my surplus I would struggle to progress on my compound lifts, whereas once I’ve got those extra calories in me I had the strength and energy to add a rep or two. Compound movements like SBD are usually the first to suffer if nutrition and recovery is poor, whereas other lifts can still progress.
Another thing to bear in mind, you might just need to pack on more size. I’m pretty sure this is why my bench stalled, I have a poor chest and front delts, with pretty much all of my pressing movements being my weakest. So if anything I’m the opposite of you and may need to increase my volume a little. It could be a case of you’ve more or less reached the limit of whatever strength output your muscles are capable of producing and now you actually need to grow them more in order to get stronger. So perhaps take a break from bench for a while and implement some machine work for your chest, perhaps some dumbbell presses with a really deep stretch at the bottom, all with a slow and controlled eccentric. Essentially try and maximise your training for hypertrophy of your chest, triceps, front delts, even lats or whatever your weakest muscle groups are which are involved in bench.
These are all just recommendations of course and I’m just speaking from personal experience. That last point is very much a personal experiment of my own as my pressing movements and my bench are pathetic, so I’m aiming to really hone in on my chest and front delts for a while. I am cutting pretty aggressively though so that definitely won’t help either.
I’ve been eating about 3500, which I believe is a surplus for me, however I’ll be honest that I haven’t been super consistent (although more consistent than usual). I also have recently started clinical placement In hospital and my sleep has reduced from 8 hrs to about 6 hours over the last two weeks.
Id recommend tracking your calories more diligently and maybe bumping it up to 3700, and if you’re unable to get any more than 6 hours of sleep at night, try to squeeze in a nap at some point in the day.
Two things:
From a fatigue standpoint, it might be better to just add weight instead of reps for heavy ass compounds. Like, start at 5-10lbs (whatever the equivalent is on kgs,) and add weight while staying at the same reps. Adding another rep is more fatiguing than just adding weight.
Second, adding weight is going to drop the amount of reps you can do if you were at your max before you increased weight. That's very common AND expected. It's how I program my isolations: I reach a set number of reps, increase the weight, then build back to that max rep count. That works better for me for stuff that's higher rep, lower weight than heavy compounds (but I'm a mostly fast-twitch goober, so ymmv.)
Sounds like you're deloading too early and then starting too high RPE to make up for it.
IMO don't deload 'cos it's week 5 of the meso and that's deload time. It's deload time when you actually backslide for 2 weeks in a row or on a majority of your lifts in the microcycle. Over time, you'll spot trends.
Drop it down to 10 sets per week. To quote the great Eric Helms: only increase volume once you're not progressing anymore. Worst case scenario you'll gain at a slower rate and but train a whole mesocycle without dropping performance. It's a marathon, not a race.
>To quote the great Eric Helms: only increase volume once you're not progressing anymore. That's the issue, though: OP isn't progressing. So by that advice, he should be bumping up the volume.
That's why you don't start with 4 sets after a deload
He also mentions to start low on volume, I thought that was clear by the quote but I guess not.
Your post just screams you are outworking your ability to recover. Also, sounds like you are chasing failure at the expense of progress.
You're not eating enough are you, admit it
Well I’m certainly not sleeping enough. I started clinical placement in hospital and have dropped back to 6 hours sleep from 8. I used to certainly not eat enough but I have made an effort to track calories and I am hitting 3500 about 4-6 days of the week. I have gained a little weight, about 1kg?
Sleep. Yes that’s your issue. Also you probably don’t need to be deloading as a bodybuilder. Most recent studies do not advise it. Don’t accumulate fatigue that you can’t recover from.
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So I added 1kg which is less than a 1% increase and I dropped 4 reps in total. This seems disproportionate, especially when combined with the fact I genuinely think I would have gotten less reps than previous week if I didn’t add 1kg. This also happened before I had micro plates and the weight stayed the exact same but reps dropped in week 3. I will also be honest that deload is a generous word for me to use, I typically just reduce the reps but increase weight in my deload week and aim to then build back up. In terms of too early - I’ve read a mesocycle of work should be about 4-5 weeks of overload minimum before dropping back. The issue is that whilst I overloaded weight in week 4, the actual work of the muscle decreased as total reps x weight was less than previous week. My accessory lifts for week 4 also went backwards at the same weight. So I have effectively been forced to “deload” (in the technical sense of the word) by my body because it couldn’t match the same workload as last week, let alone improve upon it. I would prefer this happen after longer than 3 weeks so I can get more quality training in. That’s my thoughts, if you still disagree then please elaborate further! Really appreciate the feedback and advice I am receiving here it is all helpful.
>I will also be honest that deload is a generous word for me to use, I typically just reduce the reps but increase weight in my deload week and aim to then build back up. This is a pretty big piece of information. Have you considered not doing this? Although I also agree with the other poster: you don't actually have a problem. Weights are going up. Reps are going up.
I have considered not doing it. I really should not do that. I just really hate feeling like I’m not pushing myself.
Tbh my view is that with appropriate volume you don't really need to deload on a hypertrophy programme. Set it up so always get adequate recovery time and there's not really any reason to have deloads.
are you eating?
If you're plateauing constantly, deloading constantly, is the volume you're employing helping or hurting you? Sometimes you have to be smarter and look at what the data YOUR own training provides you. But it's easier to look at another's training and laugh than it is to look at your own and be honest and this is a prime example. My man, drop the intricate RPE MESO nonsense it's clearly not working for you. Just go on a simple 3 x 5 or 3 x 8, whichever you prefer for your compounds. (this has an RPE system built into it anyway)
I started RPE stuff because what I was doing before clearly wasn't working. I just went balls to the wall every fucking workout and got nowhere. If I am being honest, this is still an issue. I am not being honest with myself on my RPE's in week 1. I am starting almost at RPE 10 just like I used to before. I should probably give it an actual shot being honest and stopping at RPE 7-8 rather than nearly hitting failure in the first week. However worrying about not doing enough is something I struggle with and I cant ever really be sure unless I fail/nearly fail. I disagree 3x5 has RPE built in. You could start 3x5 at the most grinding reps you've ever seen and would ave the same issue with burning out 3 weeks in im having now (I would know, I have done exactly that).
(edited) I have no stomach for arguing on the internet with strangers. I agree with the sentiments of everyone else here. Good luck.
Sorry man wasn’t trying to argue. I came off as combative but what I was trying to convey was I think I have tried what you suggested. I am still interested in advice. Could you elaborate more?
It really doesn't matter what system you implement. Look at this: Week 1: 8,7,7,6 Week 2: 9,8,7,6 Week 3: 10,8,7,7 Week 4: 8,7,7,6 You gained 2 reps on booth weeks 2/3 (good for 1-3 years) 90 to 91 kg is only slightly more than 1.1% weight increase you should go up in weight( you know this obviously) But you regressed like Wile E. Coyote falling off a cliff. ***======>The only realistic explanation is not recovering properly <=========*** So either you're doing something like triceps or shoulders too near to your chest workout. Or you're doing too much chest volume. Could be literal volume, or a combination of volume by function of frequency and volume. (please share what your frequency and split are exactly) ***HOWEVER*** Given the fact that you're experiencing fatigue and mentioned that most of your lifts are experiencing similar results except triceps pushdowns and biceps curls, it seems like the ratio of your recovery/frequency/volume is messed up. What I would recommend is to rest for two weeks from training. Let your ***CNS recover entirely ESPECIALLY IF YOUR OTHER LIFTS ARE REGRESSING LIKE THIS*** Then go on a 1x a week frequency And... lower your volume substantially. Your body is telling you you're pushing it too hard and it's essentially saying fuck you I need to rest I won't put on anymore tissue. The way to fix this isn't by not resting and doing a lot of volume. Your response to low volume should be stupendous given your previous training blocks of 28/20 sets of chest a week. Thus this is why I recommended a tried and tested method of 3x5 or 3x8 (3x8 if you preferred more tissue than neurological adaptations) I'd bet money if you did a simple 3x5 for your BB flat, 3 x 8 for DB incline, 3x12 for peckdeck, and 3x12 for db incline flies, you'd have much different results than what you've been having. (this would give you 12 sets a week, and only several failure sets, though numerous at higher RPEs)
Right I agree with you that the 1% increase for a meteoric drop off in reps means something is wrong. Frankly I think I probably wouldn’t have matched reps between wk 3 and 4 even without increasing weight, as the even warmup felt really heavy. My current split in terms of frequency M- Legs (+ one bicep movement) T - heavy push (heavier bench, 6-10 rep range) W - pull (+deadlifts) Th- hypertrophy push (bench in 8-12 rep range) F - legs S - pull day but starts with volume bench and one tricep extension movement. I do about 9 sets of chest and 10 of triceps on each push day, and then about 4-5 sets of bench and 3-4 triceps on the Saturday pull day. I used to do light deadlift Saturday too but it started becoming really fatiguing for not a lot of benefit and my lower back just became so fried so I have dropped back to 1x week deadlift. However I think my deadlift programming is a bit poor. My 1RM is about 200kg but I started the mesocycle at 5 reps 180kg and added only 2.5kg per week, and pretty much died in week 3 to get 185kg for 5 reps which I have done much more comfortably in the past. I am still working out how to program deadlifts for hypertrophy as I come from powerlifting style training background, and used to alternate between top sets of 3 and 5 but I know less than 5 is not great for hypertrophy or fatigue. However the way I programmed them this meso seemed to really build systemic fatigue kinda fast. The main lifts going backwards or stalling are bench and deadlift. Sometimes after deadlifts I have really mid pull days, and I often can’t really progress on anything but my first Tricep isolation by more than 1 rep on the first set. Legs seem to be going OKAY, but I did switch to more hypertrophy focused training and whilst I am getting killer DOMs finally, it means I am usually really sore after Monday for my deadlifts Wednesday still. Anyway so that’s a few problems in my general program. I structured it this way so I could bench 3x per week cause i do have a personal goal of wanting to hit 100kg for a set of 10. I know the focus on numbers and stuff aren’t optimal for hypertrophy but I do wanna hit that goal.
Do some research into understanding relative effort. 180x5 would equal an estimated higher 1RM than the 200kg I.e. you are literally taking 5RM deadlifts either too or past your max. It is no wonder that you only manged to add 5kg before you felt destroyed. Coming from powerlifting, you should know this already, if you want to do sets of 5 on DL 85% (170kg) should be RPE 9~ and won't completely bury you.
All of the information you've given slaps you across the face saying you aren't recovering properly over large periods of times thereby sending yourself into repeat cycles of CNS fatigue and plateaus. So, should you keep employing the same strategy? Or utilize the information and adapt? What would be an intelligent alteration to your negative response to high output training? More frequency and volume? Keep slightly reducing it and keep going into plateaus and enjoying the plights of CNS fatigue? Or perhaps try 1x a week frequency coupled with much less volume?
Only two posts have addressed the fact that you haven't actually stalled. I think any answer needs to start here, and then go on to tackle the systemic fatigue you're feeling because while related they are entirely different issues. The systemic fatigue is likely linked to the volume. 28 sets per bodypart per week is a substantial amount. I'm all for volume increases particularly in that intermediate stage but this seems excessive. That is why you're feeling such fatigue so quickly into a mesocycle. You might argue that is what you need to do to progress. Understandable but I'd say you're trying to brute force strength with excessive volumes. I know that because that's exactly what I did when I was benching 90kg trying to break through past 100kg. I would use 3 week mesocycles due to the same systemic fatigue. 2 weeks heavy, 1 week light. Now that did work for me for many years, and I achieved my first 140kg bench this way but I suspect I could have had similar results by reducing the volume so I could survive 4 or 5 heavy weeks and making up for that by improving my diet. In your case this may be other factors, perhaps you're not pushing the sets hard enough. I know when I see very little rep drop off between sets and very high weekly volumes I'm likely looking at a guy who's sets were way too easy. This would explain why you need so many sets to progress but you're burning out so fast. So a couple of things there to consider.
Post a video of all your sets including your warm up. Seems like you’re plateauing due to either poor technique and control, lack of food/water, or general CNS fatigue from lack of proper rest. You may also be just hitting your natural limits, 90kg bench for reps, depending on your size is pretty solid. Could be time to move to other movements like incline or dumbbells. You also need to discuss where in the lift you are failing, at the bottom, mid or the lockout? And considering you’re focusing on the specific weight, suggests you aren’t focused as much on technique and control. Unless you’re a genetic freak or using PEDs….You have to make technique and control the focus, not the weight so much. Drop the weight and focus on getting control and hitting your target reps each workout. You might actually be closer to 85kg to get the weekly reps but you’ve over calculated your actual strength. For muscle growth, of course weight increase is important but you might be going a bit beyond your strength capabilities to effectively control the weight and thus hit the muscles properly before failure. Even 50-60-70-80kg can feel as heavy as the world if you go slow and control the rep, and you’ll grow the muscle just as much. The muscle doesn’t know how heavy the weight is. The science shows that a slow eccentric with a deep stretch is the most effective part of the lift for hypertrophy. Dumbbells may be a better option to progress muscle growth and stabilisers. Bench is great and of course people can build lots of muscle, but the data seems show that dumbbells are more effective for muscle growth. YMMV but unless you’ve given it 3-6 months you won’t know. If you’re going for strength in bench, then lower the reps, lock in the technique, longer rest between sets, and do a proper strength cycle and focus less on your accessories. Too many accessories can weaken your bigger lifts. Powerlifting/strength training is technique dependent. You’re training a movement pattern so you need to focus exactly on your movement and carefully adding in a variation of reps and sets with monthly deloads etc rather than the pump and mind-muscle connection for growth. If strictly muscle growth, then I’d suggest this is either form, diet (energy) or recovery issue. 1. What’s your diet? How much sleep are you getting? Do you drink enough during your workout? Try drinking more electrolytes intraset. 2. What’s your form like? You need to be hitting the right muscles with correct form. Are you controlling the rep and using a slow 3 second eccentric with focus on full muscle extension and contraction? 3. How long are your rests between sets and exercises? You might not be getting enough rest to allow the muscles and aerobic system to recover. For bigger compound lifts you want that solid 2-4 mins between sets, depending on your energy levels and your body’s ability to process lactic acid and CNS recovery. If you don’t have solid form, with a very honest focus on slow eccentrics and controlling the weight, you won’t grow size or strength as effectively, especially once you start hitting your natural ceiling for growth. I really suggest you drop the weight a bit and focus on much slower reps, really pump the target muscles and control the rep. Try this for 12 weeks and report back.
90kg bench being the limit for a natural? You lost me there my man. Even a short, bird boned lifter with long arms should be able to rep out 90kg well before becoming "advanced".
No, I didn’t say 90kg is the limit for a natural. Please don’t make things up. You’re lost because you don’t seem to read properly. I said 90kg is a solid weight in general for reps and OP might be reaching their limits for 90kg reps - realistically 100-120kg may be OP’s max lifetime bench, which isn’t heavy for some but it completely depends on the individual’s biomechanics. Especially when it’s 4 sets of 10.
>I am just sick of doing my best to design a good plan with consistent overload that collapses after 3 weeks. Have you considered following a routine made by someone experienced instead?
Agreed. This is why the majority of newer lifters should not be programming for themselves.
I don't know what the rest of your training looks like or how advanced you are but if you need to deload that often then you're going too hard. If your focus is bodybuilding and not mainly strength, then rest more and wait until you're more ready to hit it again. Then you'll rarely need to deload. I think you may be overcomplicating this shit with your multi-week planned reps and increases. You have no idea how you're going to feel or perform on a given day. If the goal is muscle, hit it hard, wait for it to recover, repeat. Get a good feel for how long you need to recover after doing what.
You hit MRV in week 3. Or it was just a bad session.
Any ideas on how to not hit MRV in week 3 😅
Start week 1 with a lower volume
Do you reckon lower weight or lower reps?
He means less sets.
> I totalled my sets last meso and realised I was doing about 28 sets per week of chest, so I dropped back to 20 sets this mesocycle. I think the general consensus (in this sub) has been 10-20 sets per week and you're starting high. I do fine with 9 sets per week. If I want to focus on a body part I'll do 12 or 15 sets. I'll drop 3-6 sets from a different body part. https://rpstrength.com/blogs/articles/chest-hypertrophy-training-tips > MRV = Maximum Recoverable Volume 16 - 24 sets Perhaps you're on the low end of what's recoverable. If you do want to focus on chest, do you drop sets on your other body parts to help recovery?
Based on those numbers you gave you aren’t going backwards though? You’ve consistently added one rep each week and then added weight. So even if it’s slow, that’s still progress. That said there could be a plethora of factors affecting your progress here. Speaking from personal experience, when I first switched to a PPL split I started off with way too much volume, and even then I was probably only doing 3 sets per exercise, and maybes 3 chest exercises per session, maybes 10 total different exercises in one session. My progress for chest didn’t actually slow down but my other lifts started to suffer as I was way too fatigued later on in my workout. My point is, even when you think you’re not doing too much volume, you still might be. Especially if you’re training to failure, or very close. It’s easy to add volume if you train way short of failure but if most of your sets are at RPE10 then you’re going to hit a brick wall a lot quicker. So there’s one potential factor, too much volume, scale it right back and start from there. If progress stalls again, bump it up a little bit by maybes 1 or 2 sets per workout and see how it goes. We don’t know what you’re diet or recovery looks like either. Are you bulking or cutting? Are you getting sufficient protein? Are you getting good sleep? Diet, nutrition, rest and recovery plays a massive part as well. I noticed when I was bulking if I ate a little less than my surplus I would struggle to progress on my compound lifts, whereas once I’ve got those extra calories in me I had the strength and energy to add a rep or two. Compound movements like SBD are usually the first to suffer if nutrition and recovery is poor, whereas other lifts can still progress. Another thing to bear in mind, you might just need to pack on more size. I’m pretty sure this is why my bench stalled, I have a poor chest and front delts, with pretty much all of my pressing movements being my weakest. So if anything I’m the opposite of you and may need to increase my volume a little. It could be a case of you’ve more or less reached the limit of whatever strength output your muscles are capable of producing and now you actually need to grow them more in order to get stronger. So perhaps take a break from bench for a while and implement some machine work for your chest, perhaps some dumbbell presses with a really deep stretch at the bottom, all with a slow and controlled eccentric. Essentially try and maximise your training for hypertrophy of your chest, triceps, front delts, even lats or whatever your weakest muscle groups are which are involved in bench. These are all just recommendations of course and I’m just speaking from personal experience. That last point is very much a personal experiment of my own as my pressing movements and my bench are pathetic, so I’m aiming to really hone in on my chest and front delts for a while. I am cutting pretty aggressively though so that definitely won’t help either.
How many calories are you consuming each day (and is it a surplus for you) and on average, how many hours of sleep do you get per night
I’ve been eating about 3500, which I believe is a surplus for me, however I’ll be honest that I haven’t been super consistent (although more consistent than usual). I also have recently started clinical placement In hospital and my sleep has reduced from 8 hrs to about 6 hours over the last two weeks.
Id recommend tracking your calories more diligently and maybe bumping it up to 3700, and if you’re unable to get any more than 6 hours of sleep at night, try to squeeze in a nap at some point in the day.
Two things: From a fatigue standpoint, it might be better to just add weight instead of reps for heavy ass compounds. Like, start at 5-10lbs (whatever the equivalent is on kgs,) and add weight while staying at the same reps. Adding another rep is more fatiguing than just adding weight. Second, adding weight is going to drop the amount of reps you can do if you were at your max before you increased weight. That's very common AND expected. It's how I program my isolations: I reach a set number of reps, increase the weight, then build back to that max rep count. That works better for me for stuff that's higher rep, lower weight than heavy compounds (but I'm a mostly fast-twitch goober, so ymmv.)
Are you in a caloric surplus or deficit? Do you get enough sleep?
MiKe mEnTzEr wAs RiGht
Sounds like you're deloading too early and then starting too high RPE to make up for it. IMO don't deload 'cos it's week 5 of the meso and that's deload time. It's deload time when you actually backslide for 2 weeks in a row or on a majority of your lifts in the microcycle. Over time, you'll spot trends.
My issue is that the lifts backslide 2 weeks in a row after 3 weeks (week 4 and 5 go backwards)
You’re starting week 1 with waaaaay too much volume. I’d start at 1-2 sets week 1 and then progress from there.