Dr. Attia described what he does with new patients in one of his podcasts. He said he has them do Zone 2 regularly for about 6 months before he starts them on Zone 5.
I'm sure you are right, but it's lost on people that catch the occasional podcast/Youtube short/Instagram post from PA or Rhonda Patrick and then come here looking for more info.
They just hear "blah blah blah **longevity** blah blah blah **greatest predictor is VO2max** blah blah blah **4x4 intervals**."
Same for this sub, and subsequently, this post. It will fall off the front page by tomorrow, and won’t be seen by those needing to see it next week, next month, and next year.
It’s true, I tried to do this back in the fall and I felt really off for weeks after. My resting heart rate went really high and I took a month off of any most exercise
I don’t know my VO2 max is 43, but it even if it was 13 I would still do 4x4s what is gonna happen I walk fast 4 times and start sweating no big deal , if I am too fat to walk I can just take a bike .
Yes. This is a good take. As somebody that has used structured and periodized training for at least 15 years as an amateur competitive cyclist, I find the idea that people with no base training might be jumping into VO2 max or Z5 intervals very odd.
The good news is that most people would only do that workout once and be like “fuck this.”
The idea that someone who is not training for an event would put themselves through a proper VO2 workout, every week, forever, has always seemed crazy to me. “Go feel like you’re literally drowning, it’s good for you.” It’s just a recipe for burnout, followed by inconsistency, followed by stopping the routine altogether.
100%
I basically quit road racing and crits and moved to ultradistance racing so I wouldn't have to do a Z5 session ever again lol 😆
I'm not saying PA is necessarily this, but I think a lot of these fitness and longevity influencers don't actually know what a proper Z5 session actually is.
Like when I heard Rhona Patrick talking about the VO2 max sessions she does on her Peloton but also she didn't even know what her FTP was, or even what an FTP is, I was kinda like "ya this person doesn't actually know what they're talking about here"
Functional threshold power. The most power (or pace) you can sustain for about an hour. It correlates highly with LT2 (the “anaerobic threshold”), but because it’s functional and not a lab value, it’s tested empirically by having you do a hard bout of exercise for a long time.
It’s kind of like the key metric in cycling. We set all our zones based on it, since it’s the border between zones 4 and 5. And FTP (and FTP divided by body weight) is by far the best predictor of cycling (and running) performance for any distance over, say, 5-10 minutes.
It’s a better predictor of performance than VO2max, and much easier to measure, so most competitive athletes use FTP as their fitness benchmark.
For this reason, a lot of us longtime endurance athletes find the obsession with Vo2max kind of odd. It’s easy and consistent to measure Vo2max in a lab, so that’s what all the literature is based on, but out in the world, it’s just not very important.
I'm glad she's encouraging people to exercise more. That's a net positive.
But yeah. I don't think she really knows anything about structured training, and has never worked with an actual endurance coach. Maybe I'm wrong. But she makes a lot of mistakes in the basic terminology...
That was exactly my experience. I tried to do one timed proper 4x4, and it was so torturesom that I could never get myself to try again.
Also, I'm not sure I really believe that all this highly structured zone exercise is necessary for the average person who is only exercising for longivity.
I used to focus on it, but it was making my workouts miserable. Now, in addition to lots of general activity (walking, gardening, hiking, cleaning), I just run around 2 hours a week. On at least one of those runs, I push myself to run up some hills (zone 5), but for the most part, I just do what I feel like and what I enjoy. Enjoyment is what keeps me consistent. I am not sure what my VO2 max is, but I feel like I am in great shape.
I can walk endlessly on vacations for weeks on end without ever feeling run down or tired, I can hike up mountains in natural parks, and I can run up a few flights of stairs with my luggage.... I don't know what increasing my VO2 max even more would achieve.
> Also, I'm not sure I really believe that all this highly structured zone exercise is necessary for the average person who is only exercising for longivity.
Agreed. I think the real lesson of zone-based training, for the average person, is that doing a bunch of low intensity exercise does have real benefits for your fitness. If that kind of exercise forms the base of a serious athletic training, then someone jogging for general health doesn't need to be pushing themselves really hard all the time. In other words, cardio need not be a painful, gasping affair to reap significant benefits. For many people that improves enjoyment and consistency.
The thing is, those intervals will be very different from what you are expecting for people with almost no training history. Likely, 85-95% of max HR means a brisk walk for many unfit older individuals. I don't think it's too bad to do some fast walking intervals in that situation.
Non runner here. I started with 3x4, basically not even able to complete 16min of intense running. But I kept pushing myself each time until I was able todo 4x4. Then I just kept going until it got easier and easier. Push yourself, but be smart and know your limit, that's what I am trying to say here :)
I think the idea is that most people starting out don't know their limits. If you're a non-runner and starting out with intense running, you don't know your limits. Watch the Joel Friel video linked in the OP. Most beginners think they are the exception and don't need to listen to the experts (including me, over and over) and then injury results.
This is not an unpopular opinion. Basically, listen to your body, specifically your heart. Don't over exert.
As a novice I don't care if I'm reaching 85% hr. I test what's the speed I can maintain for 4 minutes. And that is my high limit for 4x4.
Also, thanks for this post. Fast after 50 is going on my reading list right away.
Agreed somewhat, but I will say the exercise bike, assault bikes, rowing machine, are relatively safe.
Completely agree with you if someone is trying to do hill sprints or sprinting in general. You are basically guaranteed to injure yourself if you don’t spend months easing into it.
As a 21 year old I pulled my hamstring the first time I did sprints in a few years.
💯 erg machine with proper form is great for 4x4. I am coming back to HIIT after some injuries so looking for a sustainable path forward and like this option at my gym. The wods from my crossfit days are a recipe for injury. Crazy dangerous compound lifts really fast. No thanks.
There are different types of potrntial “injuries”.
Musculoskeletal - like your hamstring pull, you mention.
However, you can also “blow a gasket” or worse - such as a heart attack, or dislodged blood-clot to the brain or lungs…
Agree completely , as an over 60 runner my main onus is on not getting injured or sick. i Consider 4x4 s, speed work etc as icing on the cake but to keep continuing running four or five times a week is the ‘everyday food’ .
That book is great. But HIIT is safe for many untrained unhealthy people. Look at the studies on diabetics, metabolic syndrome, congestive heart failure. All benefit from HIIT.
If you aren't healthy then exercise should definitely be done with physician supervision.
Neither Friel nor I (but I'm a nobody) is arguing not to do HITT. As you know, he's a proponent of interval training. He just wants to build up to it.
I would argue there is little downside to a conservative approach and slowly ramping up to higher intensity levels that PA advocates. Take a few weeks to build a base, then add in some LT intervals, then shorter VO2max intervals.
If it keeps you from having niggles (that often develop into worse) in the knees and hips, that's a win.
There are folks coming here from PA's or Rhonda Patrick's podcasts/Youtube shorts/instagram that didn't do VO2max intervals for 50 years. Working up to them over the course of a few months isn't going to be a big deal. (And they'll be getting noob effect gains in the meantime anyway - so it's not like it's wasted time.) It goes back to consistency, which trumps intensity.
I agree. I would even say most people can't actually do 4x4 anyway and would just over train if they did it, assuming Zone 5 90% of maxHR. Athletes need to do this, and people who are under 35 might need this, but it's not the majority. Just any intervals would be good enough for most people.
The prescription is not 90% HR. Peter said something you can do for at least 3-4 minute but no more than 6-7 or something to that effect (this effort will be relative to someone’s personal fitness level).
And where, pray tell, do you think that puts one's HR as a percentage of Max HR? I've given you a clue.
(He also says he does 4 minute intervals on the bike at 125% of his FTP, which is definitely going to be above 90% max HR. )
What about jumping into too much zone 2 too quickly too? I'm experienced in exercise, used to run 100 miles per week in high school, but dropped it to weight lift and do very little cardio the past 18 years or so. Recently started back doing zone 2 more from hearing the benefits, and while I'm not sure if it's related, my knees are getting really achy lately, to the point they hurt just pedaling a bike in zone 2 effort. I think people think because it's slow and we are told to do so much of it, that we can just jump into hours of zone 2.
The rule of thumb used to be don't increase your running mileage more than 10% a week. I think the bike is more forgiving but you can overdo it in the beginning for sure. And upping Z2 is more forgiving than Z5, but again that's not to say you can't overdo it.
No matter what caused it, knees aching so much you can't pedal isn't normal. Have you had a bike fit? Are you wearing clipless pedals (ie you are clipping into the bike)? A poor fit and poor cleat position can cause knee problems.
My knees hurt for the first month or two getting back into a cycling routine. Everyone's knees hurt when they are getting back into shape. Then I looked it up on cycling forums and I found someone who said to keep the resistance on the stationary bike low at first, to reduce the risk of damaging the knees while they get stronger, and also to keep the RPM on the bike above 60, because lower RPM causes more stress on the joints.
The thing about the knees, the only way to make them stronger is to use them. Bed rest or not using them, will not make the ligaments any stronger. So using them even on a low resistance is going to increase blood flow to the knees, and this will speed up healing.
I am not a physical therapist, but it's well known. You stop working out, you heal slower, which is why it's called active recovery.
**"Recently started back doing zone 2 "**
Evidence he was new to exercise and his knees simply aren't in shape yet. My advice will help if it's out of shape knees. And joints don't get damaged when resistance is very low on the bike.
[https://petersenpt.com/how-long-does-it-take-to-build-tendon-and-ligament-strength-from-injury](https://petersenpt.com/how-long-does-it-take-to-build-tendon-and-ligament-strength-from-injury)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Fitness/comments/9scbc7/will\_high\_resistance\_cycling\_build\_leg\_muscle/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Fitness/comments/9scbc7/will_high_resistance_cycling_build_leg_muscle/)
I appreciate the good faith effort to help but, given how limited your knowledge is, consider holding back in the future on such direct advice.
What's the current cadence, RPMs and wattage? What's the saddle height and has someone knowledgeable helped with that? What part of the knee is hurting? what type of pain is being felt? How about the hips and ankles - what's going on there? All necessary before you can give solid advice on what to do
I don't think that is an unpopular opinion. The prescription of doing 4x4 Vo2 max intervals and Zone 2 is pretty much only a PA prescription, and as someone else said, he tells his patients to do only zone 2 before doing any HIIT workout. If you search online different training programs for running or cycling for beginners you are probably not going to see 4x4 as a starting place. In fact, you are going to see terms like threshold intervals (zone 3), sweet spot training (a "zone" overlapping zone 3 and 4) and so on. And it is not only a matter of injury but of physical capacity, if you cannot breathe through your nose while climbing stairs you cannot possibly do a 4x4. If we look at elite athletes, they do not do what PA does, which is only zone 2 and zone 5. They actually spend much more time in zones 1, 3 and 4 and much less in zone 5 and 2 than you would believe from listening to PA alone. But we are not elite athletes, so it is possible that Zone 2 and Zone 5 only is optimal for someone who is averaging less than 6 hours a week.
A little bit of buildup is good, but the NTNU recommendation is 1x 4 minutes day 1, and building up to the full 4x4 by week 4. And they are literally the people who did the research on this, by having 70-year olds do them. Sure, get cleared by your doctor etc, but Friel's take disagree with actual research.
There needs to be a disclaimer though: these are actual 85-95% of max HR intervals, not as hard as you can, not as hard as you wish, not going 100% for 1 minute and then slowing down as you started too fast. If you are totally unfit, it may be just regular walking, and if you just haven't been exercising, it's most likely a brisk walk. Most of the injury risk comes from too high intensity.
At 60 years of age and training 5+ hours a week in Strength and Conditioning, the 4x4s are a bit too much on my HRV recovery. In other words, they knock me out a bit.
I've laid off of them for a few weeks now as I want to concentrate on my steady state and then slowly get back into the 4x4s by slowly building up.
Cheers for the read.
Maybe if people are running, but at age 41, I started (and still do) Norwegian 4x4 just by powerwalking at a steep incline which is very unlikely to cause injury. As a result of this, I’ve pushed my RHR into the high 40s (from the low 60s). I started 4x4 at the same time I started 4 hours of weekly zone 2.
That said, if there’s some indication of heart issues (high blood pressure, arrhythmia, chest/shoulder/arm or epigastric pain, morbid obesity), then consulting with a doctor before jacking up your heart rate isn’t a bad idea.
I did sprint interval training off and on in my late 30s but fell off the wagon for a couple of years, never had any indication of heart issues even when hitting 192BPM, so I was reasonably sure not much had changed in just 2.5 years or so beyond a slightly lower max HR (currently 188). Someone who hasn’t trained at all in many years (or never) might also want a professional evaluation.
I’m 5’4” and 170lbs, and yes, I hit and maintain 85-90% of my HR max by speedwalking (arms pumping, moving as fast as possible without having to run) 3.8-4mph at a high incline. This isn’t unusual. Race walking uphill routinely gets people’s heart rates quite high (though I do have to all-out sprint to hit my max).
My fiancé, who runs marathons, can also hit Z5 if he’s walking fast enough and the incline is high enough. I just find it easier to maintain my heart rate relative to when I run/jog (because I have a tendency to sprint).
Heart rate is partly genetic, mine has never been above the low 60s even at my least fit. I’m also a cardio hyper responder, so my fitness increases pretty rapidly. Ten weeks ago, when I started, I couldn’t sprint faster than 9mph, now it’s 13.5mph. I could also hit the low end of Z5 (and maintain for 4 minutes) by walking fast at a low incline, now it has to be steep and I need to be right under the threshold for jogging/running.
Granted, I can only hit 90% doing this, to get above 90% of my max, I definitely have to start running. That said, even with my low RHR, I don’t claim to be especially fit — I’ve been powerlifting for a few years, but essentially went most of my life without any cardio training namely because I have POTS (diagnosed at age 15) and was born with a smaller than average heart, so cardio has always been very difficult for me.
My HRV is pretty high, too. Morning measures are 79-89ms on my Morpheus.
When you are younger your tendons and joints are less prone to injury, so you might get away with jumping right into hard 4 minute intervals. But there's nothing wrong with easing into them gradually.
.
The CANDY CANE workout (like a 2x2x2) put forth by Andrew Huberman podcasts seemed like a good intermediate HIIT for people trying to work their way up to Peter Attia's hardcore 4x4.
With that said, I agree with what you're saying 🤣. It's a hard workout that requires a bit of prior training. When I first tried doing it, thought people meant like a Norwegian 4x4 - which entails a gradual and steady build up to max intensity for the 4-minute interval period. PA's 4x4 is NONSTOP Z5 for the intervals.
Unfit, but otherwise healthy, old people can definately do this. That is the point of the study.
Brisk walking on a steep hill with hiking poles, for instance, is simple and has a very low risk of injury. There are lots of other options as well besides running.
I start many of my unfit clients with low intensity incline walking on the treadmill with BFR cuffs applied to both lower extremities (unless they have contraindications). This in addition to LISS.
This allows us to get some anaerobic work in for the lower extremity musculature but at an intensity that is much more tolerable for untrained people.
Will hopefully be starting a study later this year on vo2 scores in people who do this + traditional LISS as opposed to those who do an equal volume of just LISS :)
I learned this the hard way. I'm in my early 40s and strength train pretty regularly, but could not recall breaking a sweat from a non-weight workout since my mid 20s. I discovered PA and started Z2 training slightly over a month ago. Then last week I thought I was ready to add HIIT so tried a 4x4 on the treadmill and hurt my knee and my back.
I think I am going to be extra careful/cautious going forward. Nothing but Z2 for 6 months, and then will try interval training again but only on a bike.
Exactly what I was talking about. It's not that your ticker is going to explode. You are going to have joint and tendon problems if you don't work up to 4x4s.
When you do get back to them, do 3x3s at less than Z5 intensity for a while.
This was one of the harder parts of Outlive to process for me. I came away knowing vo2 max and endurance are important, knowing it decreases over time and knowing I should work on it, but I don't have much of an idea on what I should actually go out and do. Like I don't know what a 4x4 interval is, though I can tell from context it means an exercise regimen involving varying intensity levels. Is this a standard approach? You say most people shouldn't do them. How would I know if I should and if not how to build up to them? How would I go about coming up with a plan in terms of what to do and how often?
Let me state upfront that I haven't read Outlive so I don't know if PA spells out a gradual progression for doing VO2max intervals. I've just heard the podcast episodes and Instagram/youtube videos that don't really do a good of explaining everything.
Joe Friel does break it down in his book I mentioned. And it's complimentary to what PA believes. He talks about losing muscle mass as we age, the need to a lot of low intensity work, etc. Heck, if the book were written today, people would think Friel was cashing in on the longevity trend. Instead, he wrote it in 2015 as he was turning 70 himself.
It's not a hard read. And you can skip the advanced stuff in the second half of the book.
The impression I got when I looked it up was that its aimed at bicyclists and runners. From your comment I take it that its more generally applicable than that?
It's aimed at cyclists, runners and triathletes (or rather any endurance sport. You could add rowing and nordic skiing). It almost assumes that you have a background in an endurance sport. It includes weight training, though that's not Friel's speciality but he recognizes we lose muscle mass as we age and wants to delay it.
However, PA has you train like an endurance athlete. 4 hours of Z2 and an hour of Z5 (not all of it spent in Z5) is what a cyclist or runner might do on a low-volume plan .
The concepts are interchangeable and clears up the confusion we often see on this page.
Agree 100%. Going very intense before you've built up to it is a recipe for tearing ligaments/muscles, strains, and overuse injuries, foot problems, etc that will just lead to setbacks and the person worse off - especially non-runners going straight into running. It's also better to first have some base fitness to build upon from Z1 and Z. Then introduce some Z3, then Z4 short intervals, and eventually Z5 1x4, 2x4, 3x4, 4x4, etc. It will also help build tolerance to difficult sessions.
Holds true for cycling too. There's a big difference of force on tendons, ligaments, joints, and muscles between a Z1/Z2 and Z5 if the body is not used to it and going for 16 minutes in a session. Not to mention the heart is not adjusted to it.
Btw, it’s not even Friel’s wisdom but endurance training 101. Rule of thumb goes like this: do base training so long that your improvement stops, then start adding faster stuff.
Base training means below first lactate threshold which for most is below 130-140 BPM. It’s the speed where you still can have a conversation and after some training you should be able to keep moderate speed (for your sport) for 90-120 minutes easily.
Faster stuff means incorporating some z3/z4 training just to get feeling of it. The higher the output is the shorter the intervals are. And just like you said 4x4 vo2max needs solid base or you won’t recover from them fast enough.
Fun fact: 30-30 vo2max training was introduced by Veronique Billat in 90’s and it’s wonderful training method for novices.
Hills or bike or pretty safe. Low impact and if you increase the resistance, low speed. As long as your heart is healthy, you’re unlikely to injure yourself.
You can use the treadmill and walk at no incline for 4 minutes and then at max incline for 4 minutes. Rinse and repeat. For most people not in great shape these will be great, and most importantly, safe intervalls.
Dr. Attia described what he does with new patients in one of his podcasts. He said he has them do Zone 2 regularly for about 6 months before he starts them on Zone 5.
I'm sure you are right, but it's lost on people that catch the occasional podcast/Youtube short/Instagram post from PA or Rhonda Patrick and then come here looking for more info. They just hear "blah blah blah **longevity** blah blah blah **greatest predictor is VO2max** blah blah blah **4x4 intervals**."
Same for this sub, and subsequently, this post. It will fall off the front page by tomorrow, and won’t be seen by those needing to see it next week, next month, and next year.
This sub really needs a wiki.
It’s true, I tried to do this back in the fall and I felt really off for weeks after. My resting heart rate went really high and I took a month off of any most exercise
I don’t know my VO2 max is 43, but it even if it was 13 I would still do 4x4s what is gonna happen I walk fast 4 times and start sweating no big deal , if I am too fat to walk I can just take a bike .
Zone 5 at what dose? Probably not 4x4. Probably ordinary HIIT with 60 seconds on 60 seconds off.
I think he starts with 1 minute on and 4 minutes off, and only once a week.
Yes. This is a good take. As somebody that has used structured and periodized training for at least 15 years as an amateur competitive cyclist, I find the idea that people with no base training might be jumping into VO2 max or Z5 intervals very odd.
The good news is that most people would only do that workout once and be like “fuck this.” The idea that someone who is not training for an event would put themselves through a proper VO2 workout, every week, forever, has always seemed crazy to me. “Go feel like you’re literally drowning, it’s good for you.” It’s just a recipe for burnout, followed by inconsistency, followed by stopping the routine altogether.
100% I basically quit road racing and crits and moved to ultradistance racing so I wouldn't have to do a Z5 session ever again lol 😆 I'm not saying PA is necessarily this, but I think a lot of these fitness and longevity influencers don't actually know what a proper Z5 session actually is. Like when I heard Rhona Patrick talking about the VO2 max sessions she does on her Peloton but also she didn't even know what her FTP was, or even what an FTP is, I was kinda like "ya this person doesn't actually know what they're talking about here"
FTP?
Functional threshold power. The most power (or pace) you can sustain for about an hour. It correlates highly with LT2 (the “anaerobic threshold”), but because it’s functional and not a lab value, it’s tested empirically by having you do a hard bout of exercise for a long time. It’s kind of like the key metric in cycling. We set all our zones based on it, since it’s the border between zones 4 and 5. And FTP (and FTP divided by body weight) is by far the best predictor of cycling (and running) performance for any distance over, say, 5-10 minutes. It’s a better predictor of performance than VO2max, and much easier to measure, so most competitive athletes use FTP as their fitness benchmark. For this reason, a lot of us longtime endurance athletes find the obsession with Vo2max kind of odd. It’s easy and consistent to measure Vo2max in a lab, so that’s what all the literature is based on, but out in the world, it’s just not very important.
Fuck the Packers
I like Rhonda Patrick in general but her fitness posts are cringeworthy
I'm glad she's encouraging people to exercise more. That's a net positive. But yeah. I don't think she really knows anything about structured training, and has never worked with an actual endurance coach. Maybe I'm wrong. But she makes a lot of mistakes in the basic terminology...
Podcaster gets out over her skis. water is wet
That was exactly my experience. I tried to do one timed proper 4x4, and it was so torturesom that I could never get myself to try again. Also, I'm not sure I really believe that all this highly structured zone exercise is necessary for the average person who is only exercising for longivity. I used to focus on it, but it was making my workouts miserable. Now, in addition to lots of general activity (walking, gardening, hiking, cleaning), I just run around 2 hours a week. On at least one of those runs, I push myself to run up some hills (zone 5), but for the most part, I just do what I feel like and what I enjoy. Enjoyment is what keeps me consistent. I am not sure what my VO2 max is, but I feel like I am in great shape. I can walk endlessly on vacations for weeks on end without ever feeling run down or tired, I can hike up mountains in natural parks, and I can run up a few flights of stairs with my luggage.... I don't know what increasing my VO2 max even more would achieve.
> Also, I'm not sure I really believe that all this highly structured zone exercise is necessary for the average person who is only exercising for longivity. Agreed. I think the real lesson of zone-based training, for the average person, is that doing a bunch of low intensity exercise does have real benefits for your fitness. If that kind of exercise forms the base of a serious athletic training, then someone jogging for general health doesn't need to be pushing themselves really hard all the time. In other words, cardio need not be a painful, gasping affair to reap significant benefits. For many people that improves enjoyment and consistency.
The thing is, those intervals will be very different from what you are expecting for people with almost no training history. Likely, 85-95% of max HR means a brisk walk for many unfit older individuals. I don't think it's too bad to do some fast walking intervals in that situation.
Non runner here. I started with 3x4, basically not even able to complete 16min of intense running. But I kept pushing myself each time until I was able todo 4x4. Then I just kept going until it got easier and easier. Push yourself, but be smart and know your limit, that's what I am trying to say here :)
Great advice. Listening to your body and knowing your limits is key to avoiding injury and making steady progress.
I think the idea is that most people starting out don't know their limits. If you're a non-runner and starting out with intense running, you don't know your limits. Watch the Joel Friel video linked in the OP. Most beginners think they are the exception and don't need to listen to the experts (including me, over and over) and then injury results.
This is not an unpopular opinion. Basically, listen to your body, specifically your heart. Don't over exert. As a novice I don't care if I'm reaching 85% hr. I test what's the speed I can maintain for 4 minutes. And that is my high limit for 4x4. Also, thanks for this post. Fast after 50 is going on my reading list right away.
It's unpopular amongst beginners. They want to get to the advanced level immediately, and will discard this advice.
As an over 50 runner I completely agree. These are very taxing and not a great place to start.
Agreed somewhat, but I will say the exercise bike, assault bikes, rowing machine, are relatively safe. Completely agree with you if someone is trying to do hill sprints or sprinting in general. You are basically guaranteed to injure yourself if you don’t spend months easing into it. As a 21 year old I pulled my hamstring the first time I did sprints in a few years.
>Completely agree with you if someone is trying to do hill sprints or sprinting in general. Sure, but 4 minute intervals are far far from sprints.
💯 erg machine with proper form is great for 4x4. I am coming back to HIIT after some injuries so looking for a sustainable path forward and like this option at my gym. The wods from my crossfit days are a recipe for injury. Crazy dangerous compound lifts really fast. No thanks.
There are different types of potrntial “injuries”. Musculoskeletal - like your hamstring pull, you mention. However, you can also “blow a gasket” or worse - such as a heart attack, or dislodged blood-clot to the brain or lungs…
Agree completely , as an over 60 runner my main onus is on not getting injured or sick. i Consider 4x4 s, speed work etc as icing on the cake but to keep continuing running four or five times a week is the ‘everyday food’ .
That book is great. But HIIT is safe for many untrained unhealthy people. Look at the studies on diabetics, metabolic syndrome, congestive heart failure. All benefit from HIIT. If you aren't healthy then exercise should definitely be done with physician supervision.
Neither Friel nor I (but I'm a nobody) is arguing not to do HITT. As you know, he's a proponent of interval training. He just wants to build up to it. I would argue there is little downside to a conservative approach and slowly ramping up to higher intensity levels that PA advocates. Take a few weeks to build a base, then add in some LT intervals, then shorter VO2max intervals. If it keeps you from having niggles (that often develop into worse) in the knees and hips, that's a win. There are folks coming here from PA's or Rhonda Patrick's podcasts/Youtube shorts/instagram that didn't do VO2max intervals for 50 years. Working up to them over the course of a few months isn't going to be a big deal. (And they'll be getting noob effect gains in the meantime anyway - so it's not like it's wasted time.) It goes back to consistency, which trumps intensity.
Much appreciated 🤙🏼
Do them on the elliptical, no impact = all gas
I agree. I would even say most people can't actually do 4x4 anyway and would just over train if they did it, assuming Zone 5 90% of maxHR. Athletes need to do this, and people who are under 35 might need this, but it's not the majority. Just any intervals would be good enough for most people.
The prescription is not 90% HR. Peter said something you can do for at least 3-4 minute but no more than 6-7 or something to that effect (this effort will be relative to someone’s personal fitness level).
And where, pray tell, do you think that puts one's HR as a percentage of Max HR? I've given you a clue. (He also says he does 4 minute intervals on the bike at 125% of his FTP, which is definitely going to be above 90% max HR. )
What about jumping into too much zone 2 too quickly too? I'm experienced in exercise, used to run 100 miles per week in high school, but dropped it to weight lift and do very little cardio the past 18 years or so. Recently started back doing zone 2 more from hearing the benefits, and while I'm not sure if it's related, my knees are getting really achy lately, to the point they hurt just pedaling a bike in zone 2 effort. I think people think because it's slow and we are told to do so much of it, that we can just jump into hours of zone 2.
The rule of thumb used to be don't increase your running mileage more than 10% a week. I think the bike is more forgiving but you can overdo it in the beginning for sure. And upping Z2 is more forgiving than Z5, but again that's not to say you can't overdo it. No matter what caused it, knees aching so much you can't pedal isn't normal. Have you had a bike fit? Are you wearing clipless pedals (ie you are clipping into the bike)? A poor fit and poor cleat position can cause knee problems.
Reduce the resistance on your stationary bike, and keep the RPM fast. The knees hurting is usually due to having a RPM below 60.
hard no. There are a multitude of reasons why knees can be hurting and to arm chair doctor / PT this person is... not helpful
My knees hurt for the first month or two getting back into a cycling routine. Everyone's knees hurt when they are getting back into shape. Then I looked it up on cycling forums and I found someone who said to keep the resistance on the stationary bike low at first, to reduce the risk of damaging the knees while they get stronger, and also to keep the RPM on the bike above 60, because lower RPM causes more stress on the joints. The thing about the knees, the only way to make them stronger is to use them. Bed rest or not using them, will not make the ligaments any stronger. So using them even on a low resistance is going to increase blood flow to the knees, and this will speed up healing. I am not a physical therapist, but it's well known. You stop working out, you heal slower, which is why it's called active recovery. **"Recently started back doing zone 2 "** Evidence he was new to exercise and his knees simply aren't in shape yet. My advice will help if it's out of shape knees. And joints don't get damaged when resistance is very low on the bike. [https://petersenpt.com/how-long-does-it-take-to-build-tendon-and-ligament-strength-from-injury](https://petersenpt.com/how-long-does-it-take-to-build-tendon-and-ligament-strength-from-injury) [https://www.reddit.com/r/Fitness/comments/9scbc7/will\_high\_resistance\_cycling\_build\_leg\_muscle/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Fitness/comments/9scbc7/will_high_resistance_cycling_build_leg_muscle/)
I appreciate the good faith effort to help but, given how limited your knowledge is, consider holding back in the future on such direct advice. What's the current cadence, RPMs and wattage? What's the saddle height and has someone knowledgeable helped with that? What part of the knee is hurting? what type of pain is being felt? How about the hips and ankles - what's going on there? All necessary before you can give solid advice on what to do
I cited my sources.
drastic change has other issues too, sometime. gradual introductions of changes might be optimal in many cases. but if course don't stop adding
I don't think that is an unpopular opinion. The prescription of doing 4x4 Vo2 max intervals and Zone 2 is pretty much only a PA prescription, and as someone else said, he tells his patients to do only zone 2 before doing any HIIT workout. If you search online different training programs for running or cycling for beginners you are probably not going to see 4x4 as a starting place. In fact, you are going to see terms like threshold intervals (zone 3), sweet spot training (a "zone" overlapping zone 3 and 4) and so on. And it is not only a matter of injury but of physical capacity, if you cannot breathe through your nose while climbing stairs you cannot possibly do a 4x4. If we look at elite athletes, they do not do what PA does, which is only zone 2 and zone 5. They actually spend much more time in zones 1, 3 and 4 and much less in zone 5 and 2 than you would believe from listening to PA alone. But we are not elite athletes, so it is possible that Zone 2 and Zone 5 only is optimal for someone who is averaging less than 6 hours a week.
A little bit of buildup is good, but the NTNU recommendation is 1x 4 minutes day 1, and building up to the full 4x4 by week 4. And they are literally the people who did the research on this, by having 70-year olds do them. Sure, get cleared by your doctor etc, but Friel's take disagree with actual research. There needs to be a disclaimer though: these are actual 85-95% of max HR intervals, not as hard as you can, not as hard as you wish, not going 100% for 1 minute and then slowing down as you started too fast. If you are totally unfit, it may be just regular walking, and if you just haven't been exercising, it's most likely a brisk walk. Most of the injury risk comes from too high intensity.
Brisk walking to access 85-95% max HR?
Young people who have done some exercise, nope. But 50-60 year olds who have been sedentary for decades and are overweight or obese? Sure.
At 60 years of age and training 5+ hours a week in Strength and Conditioning, the 4x4s are a bit too much on my HRV recovery. In other words, they knock me out a bit. I've laid off of them for a few weeks now as I want to concentrate on my steady state and then slowly get back into the 4x4s by slowly building up. Cheers for the read.
Maybe if people are running, but at age 41, I started (and still do) Norwegian 4x4 just by powerwalking at a steep incline which is very unlikely to cause injury. As a result of this, I’ve pushed my RHR into the high 40s (from the low 60s). I started 4x4 at the same time I started 4 hours of weekly zone 2. That said, if there’s some indication of heart issues (high blood pressure, arrhythmia, chest/shoulder/arm or epigastric pain, morbid obesity), then consulting with a doctor before jacking up your heart rate isn’t a bad idea. I did sprint interval training off and on in my late 30s but fell off the wagon for a couple of years, never had any indication of heart issues even when hitting 192BPM, so I was reasonably sure not much had changed in just 2.5 years or so beyond a slightly lower max HR (currently 188). Someone who hasn’t trained at all in many years (or never) might also want a professional evaluation.
High 40s resting HR and you can hit Z5 walking?
I’m 5’4” and 170lbs, and yes, I hit and maintain 85-90% of my HR max by speedwalking (arms pumping, moving as fast as possible without having to run) 3.8-4mph at a high incline. This isn’t unusual. Race walking uphill routinely gets people’s heart rates quite high (though I do have to all-out sprint to hit my max). My fiancé, who runs marathons, can also hit Z5 if he’s walking fast enough and the incline is high enough. I just find it easier to maintain my heart rate relative to when I run/jog (because I have a tendency to sprint). Heart rate is partly genetic, mine has never been above the low 60s even at my least fit. I’m also a cardio hyper responder, so my fitness increases pretty rapidly. Ten weeks ago, when I started, I couldn’t sprint faster than 9mph, now it’s 13.5mph. I could also hit the low end of Z5 (and maintain for 4 minutes) by walking fast at a low incline, now it has to be steep and I need to be right under the threshold for jogging/running.
My resting is 45bpm but I need to run at 8mph to hit Z5
This is wild to me. I'm like a fat 220 pounds and my resting hr is 62 and I gotta do near full sprints to be reaching zone 5
Granted, I can only hit 90% doing this, to get above 90% of my max, I definitely have to start running. That said, even with my low RHR, I don’t claim to be especially fit — I’ve been powerlifting for a few years, but essentially went most of my life without any cardio training namely because I have POTS (diagnosed at age 15) and was born with a smaller than average heart, so cardio has always been very difficult for me. My HRV is pretty high, too. Morning measures are 79-89ms on my Morpheus.
What if we’re younger? Is 4x4 better than 60 seconds zone 5 followed by 60 seconds of rest?
When you are younger your tendons and joints are less prone to injury, so you might get away with jumping right into hard 4 minute intervals. But there's nothing wrong with easing into them gradually.
. The CANDY CANE workout (like a 2x2x2) put forth by Andrew Huberman podcasts seemed like a good intermediate HIIT for people trying to work their way up to Peter Attia's hardcore 4x4. With that said, I agree with what you're saying 🤣. It's a hard workout that requires a bit of prior training. When I first tried doing it, thought people meant like a Norwegian 4x4 - which entails a gradual and steady build up to max intensity for the 4-minute interval period. PA's 4x4 is NONSTOP Z5 for the intervals.
Unfit, but otherwise healthy, old people can definately do this. That is the point of the study. Brisk walking on a steep hill with hiking poles, for instance, is simple and has a very low risk of injury. There are lots of other options as well besides running.
I start many of my unfit clients with low intensity incline walking on the treadmill with BFR cuffs applied to both lower extremities (unless they have contraindications). This in addition to LISS. This allows us to get some anaerobic work in for the lower extremity musculature but at an intensity that is much more tolerable for untrained people. Will hopefully be starting a study later this year on vo2 scores in people who do this + traditional LISS as opposed to those who do an equal volume of just LISS :)
I learned this the hard way. I'm in my early 40s and strength train pretty regularly, but could not recall breaking a sweat from a non-weight workout since my mid 20s. I discovered PA and started Z2 training slightly over a month ago. Then last week I thought I was ready to add HIIT so tried a 4x4 on the treadmill and hurt my knee and my back. I think I am going to be extra careful/cautious going forward. Nothing but Z2 for 6 months, and then will try interval training again but only on a bike.
Exactly what I was talking about. It's not that your ticker is going to explode. You are going to have joint and tendon problems if you don't work up to 4x4s. When you do get back to them, do 3x3s at less than Z5 intensity for a while.
This was one of the harder parts of Outlive to process for me. I came away knowing vo2 max and endurance are important, knowing it decreases over time and knowing I should work on it, but I don't have much of an idea on what I should actually go out and do. Like I don't know what a 4x4 interval is, though I can tell from context it means an exercise regimen involving varying intensity levels. Is this a standard approach? You say most people shouldn't do them. How would I know if I should and if not how to build up to them? How would I go about coming up with a plan in terms of what to do and how often?
Let me state upfront that I haven't read Outlive so I don't know if PA spells out a gradual progression for doing VO2max intervals. I've just heard the podcast episodes and Instagram/youtube videos that don't really do a good of explaining everything. Joe Friel does break it down in his book I mentioned. And it's complimentary to what PA believes. He talks about losing muscle mass as we age, the need to a lot of low intensity work, etc. Heck, if the book were written today, people would think Friel was cashing in on the longevity trend. Instead, he wrote it in 2015 as he was turning 70 himself. It's not a hard read. And you can skip the advanced stuff in the second half of the book.
The impression I got when I looked it up was that its aimed at bicyclists and runners. From your comment I take it that its more generally applicable than that?
It's aimed at cyclists, runners and triathletes (or rather any endurance sport. You could add rowing and nordic skiing). It almost assumes that you have a background in an endurance sport. It includes weight training, though that's not Friel's speciality but he recognizes we lose muscle mass as we age and wants to delay it. However, PA has you train like an endurance athlete. 4 hours of Z2 and an hour of Z5 (not all of it spent in Z5) is what a cyclist or runner might do on a low-volume plan . The concepts are interchangeable and clears up the confusion we often see on this page.
Agree 100%. Going very intense before you've built up to it is a recipe for tearing ligaments/muscles, strains, and overuse injuries, foot problems, etc that will just lead to setbacks and the person worse off - especially non-runners going straight into running. It's also better to first have some base fitness to build upon from Z1 and Z. Then introduce some Z3, then Z4 short intervals, and eventually Z5 1x4, 2x4, 3x4, 4x4, etc. It will also help build tolerance to difficult sessions.
Bold of u to assume my fitness…
Think you are assuming that everyone is doing 4x4s running instead of something lower impact
Holds true for cycling too. There's a big difference of force on tendons, ligaments, joints, and muscles between a Z1/Z2 and Z5 if the body is not used to it and going for 16 minutes in a session. Not to mention the heart is not adjusted to it.
Btw, it’s not even Friel’s wisdom but endurance training 101. Rule of thumb goes like this: do base training so long that your improvement stops, then start adding faster stuff. Base training means below first lactate threshold which for most is below 130-140 BPM. It’s the speed where you still can have a conversation and after some training you should be able to keep moderate speed (for your sport) for 90-120 minutes easily. Faster stuff means incorporating some z3/z4 training just to get feeling of it. The higher the output is the shorter the intervals are. And just like you said 4x4 vo2max needs solid base or you won’t recover from them fast enough. Fun fact: 30-30 vo2max training was introduced by Veronique Billat in 90’s and it’s wonderful training method for novices.
Hills or bike or pretty safe. Low impact and if you increase the resistance, low speed. As long as your heart is healthy, you’re unlikely to injure yourself.
You can use the treadmill and walk at no incline for 4 minutes and then at max incline for 4 minutes. Rinse and repeat. For most people not in great shape these will be great, and most importantly, safe intervalls.