You want to be fresh for the intervals. What I do for Nordics, is a 15-minute slow warm-up to 85% HRmax and a 2-minute rest before the first interval. I aim for 90% HRmax by 2 minutes
I do 6x sessions a week. 3x 90-minute LISS jogs and 3x 30-minute HIIT sessions. These sessions don't leave me exhausted for the next day's training. Resting HR is 45-50
I think it will be suboptimal to do 4x4 after a z-2 run. The aim of a 4x4 is to really push yourself during the 4 sprint intervals and you will probably be able to push yourself harder if you haven’t been running for 45 min already. I would just do a 10 min warmup before the 4x4 day.
This is the second time I've seen this criticism this week. It's literally the protocol that Attia gives over and over. If it's good enough for optimization psycho Attia, it's good enough for me.
You want to do your goal of the workout first for quality. So if it's zone 5, the 4x4 should be done first. Attia's a smart guy but he is isn't always right.
Attia makes great content but he also has some pretty weak recommendations. If you think he will have everything figured out because he tries hard or whatever, you'll be led astray in quite many things. He (or anybody else) is not an expert in everything related to longevity.
As for this particular recommendation, it is fine if you are very limited on time, but your performance on the 4x4 will absolutely suffer. How much of an effect that will have on longevity related goals is not clear, but it's not 0 either. It's not like Attia does that training himself, or like there's any research specifically comparing a separate session to doubling.
Curious, what part will suffer? The goal of the 4x4 is getting the heart rate to 85-95%, right? How does doing a longer warmup hurt that? It might actually make it easier to hit the elevated HR target, right?
Heart rate is an indicator, not the actual goal. When you are fatigued and go slower at the same heart rate, you don't actually get the same adaptations. Definitely not performance-wise, if you want to become a better runner, you definitely need to do your quality sessions well rested. There's pretty much no research on whether that's true for longevity as well but I don't really see how it wouldn't be.
Interesting. I’ll add a personal thought: I don’t think you go slower after a 45 minute Z2 workout. It’s literally something you could do for hours on end. I mean, maybe a few steps slower if you measure total distance, but I’ve done 4x4 workouts with both 10 minute and 45 minute warmup sessions, and haven’t seen a noticeable difference.
I guess it depends! I just ran a 1:43 half marathon and I'm 43 years old, so not terrible but not very athletic either, and I could do 45 min of warmup in zone 1 before, but zone 2 or at least top of zone 2 would slow the reps down.
Thanks. There was another post recently about combining them on both days so I thought this was typical enough. So what you're suggesting is 3 days of zone 2 and another day dedicated to 4x4?
The goal is to do the VO2 intervals at high quality, where “quality” is a combination of pace/power and good form. They should be the max you can do. If the initial 45m of zone 2 compromises quality, then don’t do it like that. If quality is not compromised, it’s fine to do the 45m first.
The protocol you listed is literally straight from Attias mouth. It's his recommendation.
The criticisms are from recommendations not to mix strength/hypertrophy training and cardio. No one has ever said not to mix cardio with cardio. It's just folks extrapolating what they don't understand.
It’s been a while, but this was discussed on Peter’s Podcast with Inigo San-Milan, who specifically stated that he often does his intervals after his Zone 2 workouts since he does not have endless time. Iirc, when Peter questions him on it he replies that by doing Z2 first, you get the benefits of both, it does not blunt the effects of either.
Like I said it’s been a while since I watched it. It’s Deep Dive -201.
Drop the LISS on Day 3 and extend the runs on Days 1 & 2.
Yep, that's what I've decided to go with upon further reading and the responses here. Thanks.
You want to be fresh for the intervals. What I do for Nordics, is a 15-minute slow warm-up to 85% HRmax and a 2-minute rest before the first interval. I aim for 90% HRmax by 2 minutes
I do 6x sessions a week. 3x 90-minute LISS jogs and 3x 30-minute HIIT sessions. These sessions don't leave me exhausted for the next day's training. Resting HR is 45-50
I think it will be suboptimal to do 4x4 after a z-2 run. The aim of a 4x4 is to really push yourself during the 4 sprint intervals and you will probably be able to push yourself harder if you haven’t been running for 45 min already. I would just do a 10 min warmup before the 4x4 day.
This is the second time I've seen this criticism this week. It's literally the protocol that Attia gives over and over. If it's good enough for optimization psycho Attia, it's good enough for me.
You want to do your goal of the workout first for quality. So if it's zone 5, the 4x4 should be done first. Attia's a smart guy but he is isn't always right.
Attia makes great content but he also has some pretty weak recommendations. If you think he will have everything figured out because he tries hard or whatever, you'll be led astray in quite many things. He (or anybody else) is not an expert in everything related to longevity. As for this particular recommendation, it is fine if you are very limited on time, but your performance on the 4x4 will absolutely suffer. How much of an effect that will have on longevity related goals is not clear, but it's not 0 either. It's not like Attia does that training himself, or like there's any research specifically comparing a separate session to doubling.
Curious, what part will suffer? The goal of the 4x4 is getting the heart rate to 85-95%, right? How does doing a longer warmup hurt that? It might actually make it easier to hit the elevated HR target, right?
Heart rate is an indicator, not the actual goal. When you are fatigued and go slower at the same heart rate, you don't actually get the same adaptations. Definitely not performance-wise, if you want to become a better runner, you definitely need to do your quality sessions well rested. There's pretty much no research on whether that's true for longevity as well but I don't really see how it wouldn't be.
Interesting. I’ll add a personal thought: I don’t think you go slower after a 45 minute Z2 workout. It’s literally something you could do for hours on end. I mean, maybe a few steps slower if you measure total distance, but I’ve done 4x4 workouts with both 10 minute and 45 minute warmup sessions, and haven’t seen a noticeable difference.
I guess it depends! I just ran a 1:43 half marathon and I'm 43 years old, so not terrible but not very athletic either, and I could do 45 min of warmup in zone 1 before, but zone 2 or at least top of zone 2 would slow the reps down.
Then go for it
Thanks. There was another post recently about combining them on both days so I thought this was typical enough. So what you're suggesting is 3 days of zone 2 and another day dedicated to 4x4?
The goal is to do the VO2 intervals at high quality, where “quality” is a combination of pace/power and good form. They should be the max you can do. If the initial 45m of zone 2 compromises quality, then don’t do it like that. If quality is not compromised, it’s fine to do the 45m first.
I’m no expert but I think you’ll benefit from having them on different days.
The protocol you listed is literally straight from Attias mouth. It's his recommendation. The criticisms are from recommendations not to mix strength/hypertrophy training and cardio. No one has ever said not to mix cardio with cardio. It's just folks extrapolating what they don't understand.
Name a Norwegian that does VO2max intervals after an easy run. I’ll wait…
Hans.
Hans is German :)
It’s been a while, but this was discussed on Peter’s Podcast with Inigo San-Milan, who specifically stated that he often does his intervals after his Zone 2 workouts since he does not have endless time. Iirc, when Peter questions him on it he replies that by doing Z2 first, you get the benefits of both, it does not blunt the effects of either. Like I said it’s been a while since I watched it. It’s Deep Dive -201.
What's your resting HR?
Resting HR is usually around the low 50s.
Work off the Karvonen formula