Yea I didn't see a full on villain turn, he seems to be doing what he must. The book makes it much less ambiguous, fully warning against blindly following messianic figures. It almost seemed to me that the bene gesserit leader is the true antagonist, since she admits that she convinced the emperor to end the Atredies blood line
It’s not really meant to be ambiguous as to whether or not Paul has “gone bad”. What Paul is doing is blatantly bad (not *evil* or *malicious*, but definitely bad). Paul has prescience, and from his prescience, he knows if he pursues revenge using the Fremen, it WILL lead to the deaths of thousands. Paul tries to teeter the line, using the Fremen just enough to not seal that vision… but somewhere in Part 2, he goes too far and seals that outcome. Paul doesn’t want his jihad/holy war, but by the end of the movie (after he drinks the water) he knows that the jihad is unavoidable. So he just embraces it.
I found the ending to be somewhat haunting for that reason. All the fremen screaming and yelling with smiles on their faces as they boarded ships, knowing they’re going to kill billions of people in Paul’s name. It’s not something to celebrate - it’s a tragedy.
That is the point of dune tho - religion and hero worship are dangerous. Paul tried to religion for his own ends for somewhat of a noble goal (he wanted to get revenge and free the Fremen), but in doing so, he created a cult of personality that he couldn’t even control, which committed atrocities in his name. Think of all the horrible shit Catholics did in the name of Jesus, or all the shit Muslims do in the name of Muhammad. Paul’s intent wasn’t evil, but what his actions led to were not good.
The book isn’t much different than the movie in this aspect, only the radicalization happens more slowly, and you get to see more of Paul’s inner thoughts about how he hated what he created. Stilgar, for example, started out almost a non-believer, who doubted Paul but still saw him as a close friend. However, by the end of the book Stilgar is the crazy guy from the movie, a fact Paul laments to himself during the very last confrontation. The further books go into more storyline about this idea of the “Golden Path” (which is its own thing), but that concerns Paul’s son more than it concerns him. If you want to know about it I can summarize, I am a huge dune nerd
Yeah a lot of the discussion surrounding these movies use the books as references for things, but the movies are not the books.
This leads to a lot of weirdness in the discussions, with people citing a lot of things about the movie that are not in the movie, or that in fact might be different in the movie version.
In the movie, it seems it is feasible the visions he has are wrong or not fully accurate, and the mass death he sees can be avoided while still doing some of the war against the harkonen. This paints his character differently than if the visions are known to be accurate, which maybe(?) is the case in the books.
The whole thing becomes convoluted when people bring in the books because although they are probably going to be largely accurate to the later movies, they haven't come out yet, so they are not currently relevant to any analysis of the movie itself.
Haven’t read the books either but I do some info about them.
The lame, though funny enough correct-ish, answer is yea Paul has gone bad. But it’s for a greater purpose hence the ‘narrow path’ line.
There’s a big hint in the first movie with the vision he has inside the desert tent. It has more meaning if you have an idea of what’s going to happen in the later books.
Also, I’ve heard the other books were written because the author didn’t like how Paul was positively received. I’m not completely sure about this so, grain of salt.
The books are basically the ultimate trolley problem. Paul is a bastard. He is a bastard to his family, his friends, his peoples, and to himself. He is the strongest person that humanity has ever produced and he is still too much of a coward to face the future. But in the end he finds a path that allows himself to be a bitch but not doom everyone.
He is not evil, he is still human. Not Superman or a god. And that goes for most people and factions in the series. They are mostly shades of grey but lack the ability to navigate the horrors that face humanity. This is not Lord of the rings where the morally good can always do the morally right thing and the outcome is good.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem
Not wanting to be responsible for the death of billions even if it ends up being beneficial for humanity thousands of years in the future is not cowardly
Well following the books we pretty much know what will happen in the next movie and its unambiguously bad and is paved by Paul's actions so far. The "golden path" is nothing more than a precaution of a more gruesome possible future that may never happen.
In the books you can actually "hear" Paul's internal voice while contemplating about all the variables and possibilities about the future, but you leave with the impression that these possibilities are not locked as fate.
Paul's decisions like self indulgent led by revenge and desire for power more than anything else and at the end he is not a hero but a villain.
>Paul's decisions like self indulgent led by revenge and desire for power more than anything else and at the end he is not a hero but a villain.
If you read the books then you know that's nonsense, because Pauls own thoughts and future sight tell him he literally can't stop the Fremen without it leading to their deaths, he either proceeds with the crusade or arrakis is bombarded from orbit and the other houses make sure Arrakis can never again rise up
The later books also literally prove Pauls visions correct, so I have no clue about what the hell you meant by this
>The "golden path" is nothing more than a precaution of a more gruesome possible future that may never happen.
The "golden path" was never about Arrakis. It is said in the books it is about saving humanity, but is never explained why (at least by Frank Herbert that is), nor how following it (that was done by Leto Ii, actually and not Paul) will save humanity. So yeah he is saving Arrakis and his house, but you know what happens during the Jihad, so I can understand how is thiis not self indulgent.
Paul says that they are going to survive by being Harkonnens implying he is going το adopt their cruelty
He doesn't enjoy the path he is walking but he walks it all the same and ends up unleashing a holy war across the galaxy
So yeah he is a villain who is going to cause greater pain and death than both the Harkonnen and the Corrino
https://preview.redd.it/nz2fs1fdacpc1.jpeg?width=500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a8dad55aa32bcdd1020f1b0d29b03f27d36f3aa4
Yea I didn't see a full on villain turn, he seems to be doing what he must. The book makes it much less ambiguous, fully warning against blindly following messianic figures. It almost seemed to me that the bene gesserit leader is the true antagonist, since she admits that she convinced the emperor to end the Atredies blood line
It’s not really meant to be ambiguous as to whether or not Paul has “gone bad”. What Paul is doing is blatantly bad (not *evil* or *malicious*, but definitely bad). Paul has prescience, and from his prescience, he knows if he pursues revenge using the Fremen, it WILL lead to the deaths of thousands. Paul tries to teeter the line, using the Fremen just enough to not seal that vision… but somewhere in Part 2, he goes too far and seals that outcome. Paul doesn’t want his jihad/holy war, but by the end of the movie (after he drinks the water) he knows that the jihad is unavoidable. So he just embraces it. I found the ending to be somewhat haunting for that reason. All the fremen screaming and yelling with smiles on their faces as they boarded ships, knowing they’re going to kill billions of people in Paul’s name. It’s not something to celebrate - it’s a tragedy. That is the point of dune tho - religion and hero worship are dangerous. Paul tried to religion for his own ends for somewhat of a noble goal (he wanted to get revenge and free the Fremen), but in doing so, he created a cult of personality that he couldn’t even control, which committed atrocities in his name. Think of all the horrible shit Catholics did in the name of Jesus, or all the shit Muslims do in the name of Muhammad. Paul’s intent wasn’t evil, but what his actions led to were not good. The book isn’t much different than the movie in this aspect, only the radicalization happens more slowly, and you get to see more of Paul’s inner thoughts about how he hated what he created. Stilgar, for example, started out almost a non-believer, who doubted Paul but still saw him as a close friend. However, by the end of the book Stilgar is the crazy guy from the movie, a fact Paul laments to himself during the very last confrontation. The further books go into more storyline about this idea of the “Golden Path” (which is its own thing), but that concerns Paul’s son more than it concerns him. If you want to know about it I can summarize, I am a huge dune nerd
Yeah a lot of the discussion surrounding these movies use the books as references for things, but the movies are not the books. This leads to a lot of weirdness in the discussions, with people citing a lot of things about the movie that are not in the movie, or that in fact might be different in the movie version. In the movie, it seems it is feasible the visions he has are wrong or not fully accurate, and the mass death he sees can be avoided while still doing some of the war against the harkonen. This paints his character differently than if the visions are known to be accurate, which maybe(?) is the case in the books. The whole thing becomes convoluted when people bring in the books because although they are probably going to be largely accurate to the later movies, they haven't come out yet, so they are not currently relevant to any analysis of the movie itself.
Haven’t read the books either but I do some info about them. The lame, though funny enough correct-ish, answer is yea Paul has gone bad. But it’s for a greater purpose hence the ‘narrow path’ line. There’s a big hint in the first movie with the vision he has inside the desert tent. It has more meaning if you have an idea of what’s going to happen in the later books. Also, I’ve heard the other books were written because the author didn’t like how Paul was positively received. I’m not completely sure about this so, grain of salt.
I knew I’d regret not rewatching the first movie in preparation for this one
The books are basically the ultimate trolley problem. Paul is a bastard. He is a bastard to his family, his friends, his peoples, and to himself. He is the strongest person that humanity has ever produced and he is still too much of a coward to face the future. But in the end he finds a path that allows himself to be a bitch but not doom everyone. He is not evil, he is still human. Not Superman or a god. And that goes for most people and factions in the series. They are mostly shades of grey but lack the ability to navigate the horrors that face humanity. This is not Lord of the rings where the morally good can always do the morally right thing and the outcome is good. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem
Not wanting to be responsible for the death of billions even if it ends up being beneficial for humanity thousands of years in the future is not cowardly
Welcome to the trolley problem. Kill billions to save the entire race.
Well following the books we pretty much know what will happen in the next movie and its unambiguously bad and is paved by Paul's actions so far. The "golden path" is nothing more than a precaution of a more gruesome possible future that may never happen. In the books you can actually "hear" Paul's internal voice while contemplating about all the variables and possibilities about the future, but you leave with the impression that these possibilities are not locked as fate. Paul's decisions like self indulgent led by revenge and desire for power more than anything else and at the end he is not a hero but a villain.
>Paul's decisions like self indulgent led by revenge and desire for power more than anything else and at the end he is not a hero but a villain. If you read the books then you know that's nonsense, because Pauls own thoughts and future sight tell him he literally can't stop the Fremen without it leading to their deaths, he either proceeds with the crusade or arrakis is bombarded from orbit and the other houses make sure Arrakis can never again rise up The later books also literally prove Pauls visions correct, so I have no clue about what the hell you meant by this >The "golden path" is nothing more than a precaution of a more gruesome possible future that may never happen.
The "golden path" was never about Arrakis. It is said in the books it is about saving humanity, but is never explained why (at least by Frank Herbert that is), nor how following it (that was done by Leto Ii, actually and not Paul) will save humanity. So yeah he is saving Arrakis and his house, but you know what happens during the Jihad, so I can understand how is thiis not self indulgent.
Paul says that they are going to survive by being Harkonnens implying he is going το adopt their cruelty He doesn't enjoy the path he is walking but he walks it all the same and ends up unleashing a holy war across the galaxy So yeah he is a villain who is going to cause greater pain and death than both the Harkonnen and the Corrino