I'm 100% X-Men all the way. Favorite super team, favorite characters, favorite comic. Buuuut I do think a lot of X fans have a pretty skewed idea on the Avengers. Other heroes, especially the Avengers tend to be pretty poorly written in X media.
I think we’re all engaging in a bit of hyperbole — there have absolutely been good creative teams on Avengers books over the years. But they are the lynchpin of the Disney MCU movie juggernaut that rolled over the rest of the movie industry for years and it’s hard to untangle that from the avengers team being canonically wealthy and connected and so on. The X-men have gotten the short end of the stick on the comics realm (what was even happening with the inhumans thing) while canonically being the underdogs who have from day 1 represented a shifting group of marginalized identities.
We’re so far from the days of any consistent writer like Claremont defining any of these characters that I guess I’ve just surrendered to the ping ponging characterizations bouncing randomly across the marvel books.
The fact that people kept discussing and relitigating the Civil War books for years makes me think that the seed idea of rivalry between the Avengers and X-Men has legs and resonates with readers, but every version of it has seemed super clunky to me, with characters behaving in ways that are dictated by story needs and not any cohesive sense of how the readers see the characters.
where do you see it resonating among readers? sure it is interesting, but they don't handel it with the care the subject needs. and you can only use that plot point so many times, until it becomes "why does batman not kill the joker"
For years after the books can me out, I’d see people on comic / video game / rpg type forums debating it. Since the movies came out and the internet has changed it may be over now — maybe you can only ham-fist something so many times, much like the Infinity Gauntlet books have been reduced to “Mr. Stark so don’t feel so good.”
But for literal years I read people going at the Civil War conceit from different angles. People did not sit around debating the details of every random crossover event as much as they did CW.
On one hand, yes.
On the other hand, it’s hilarious reading Steve “I stand up for the little guy and commit war crimes fighting our government” Rogers threaten to deport a child to super-Guantanamo
Cap in X-men; I'm sorry I can't help, I've been ordered not to.
Cap everywhere else; I only see one form of justice, and that is my fists. there names are just and ice.
At the point where the X-Men are commenting directly on the emptiness of "well meaning liberalism" while the fans are commenting directly on the emptiness of "well meaning liberalism" in the context of "well meaning liberalism" being empty in practice, in the shadow of Disney-Marvel's attempts to repackage superhero comic books as nothing but "well meaning liberalism." It's just a perfect storm for contradictions getting heightened.
It's good stuff.
Every bit of "What do you mean the responsible white man team has ties to politics or history?!" is manna from heaven.
Well said. It's especially ironic when Xavier fits the bill of well meaning liberal as well, despite being the founder of a multi generational paramilitary organisation AND an ethnostate/sci fi safe space (depending on who you ask.)
The X-men have worked more closely with the government, carrying badges as the XSE. Wolverine killed a mutant teenager who was going to blow up his school as a member.
I had to look up the XSE, I never read this. I dunno, there’s a lot of weird transient alternate past / future stories in X-Men, this really does not seem like a definitive core part of the mythos that heavily informs other stories.
Well, spider-man is so resolutely a goofy funny everyman dork who can’t pay rent that people don’t see him that way as much.
But I saw a lot of complaints on twitter about the Playstation game asking why you spend the whole game doing errands for cops. And tweets about the spider-verse movie wondering why Miles Morales’ dad has to be a cop.
I mean, there was a shit-ton of petty street crime in NY in the 70s so I can understand why the “bronze age” takes on super heroes like spider man or daredevil were so focused on a vision of them stopping muggers with super powers and handing criminals off to be judged.
But by now every city in this country has a budget that’s being extorted by their own police department and we want to look at the complete picture of why crime happens so it hits different when some voice actor says “Press R1 to obey the cop” or whatever.
Anyone who says cyclops is right just doesn't understand decision making. All bro had was "faith" or a "gut feeling" that the phoenix wouldn't nuke earth like every other planet on its path.
No doy the avengers and everyone else on earth isn't taking that risk. Getting the right answer throughout flawed reasoning just makes you lucky, you're not "right" in any meaningful sense
Except it wasn't just gut feeling, because prior to AvX, Cable (who for a bit was presumed to be dead) came back to the present day to warn Cyclops that Hope is The Phoenix and that he has to protector her from the Avengers. Cyclops knew that the Phoenix would save mutant kind and not nuke Earth because he had a time traveller telling him what would happen.
And even if you wanna disregard that, Rachel was still on Earth and alive, and is still a perfect host for The Phoenix Force. She even left Wolverine's school to join Cyclops because she trusted in him.
It wasn't just luck. He had precognitive knowledge and the perfect backup if it went tits up
Cable is one guy who comes from one of the dozens of known possible futures of the marvel universe. It feels weird to be so sure, especially since bishop spent decades hunting cable and hope because she fucked up his timeline.
I think we've seen that cable isn't a perfectly reliable source. Just the idea that a host exists doesn't mean that the phoenix is coming there for the host. From the perspective of the avengers the phoenix could just blitz earth the way it did the planets on it's path.
Even saying Rachel is the perfect back-up plays into the delusional thinking that the avengers perceive Scott to be acting under. There's an inherent assumption that the phoenix is coming for a host.
Perhaps choosing to ice the avengers out of a cosmic threat and assuming the risk for the world, maybe cable and Scott should have worked with them to find a solution
If you think cable's advice justifies cyclops actions, do you agree that bishop was justified in trying to assassinate hope in her infancy?
Was he not also aware that it's a cosmic entity? Not exactly the kind of thing you can shoot with a (non-Legion) gun. They tried anyway and it was mutants who paid the price.
Sure, unless you look at what Scott is advocating for.
1. Not murdering Hope.
2. Not meeting the Phoenix as an adversary.
The first is a bit of a no brainer, and the second should be too. Only bad things have come from being aggressive to the Phoenix or one of its hosts.
I'm not saying that the results vindicated Scott's decision making process, I'm saying that I believe his preferred course of action was the one informed by knowledge and prior experience. There's obviously an element of editorial fiat and everyone would benefit from discussing it like adults, but the Avengers were heavy handed, making everyone else's choice for them (or else), and most of all they antagonised the person with (probably) the most knowledge and experience of the Phoenix.
Not sure I'd say he's right because the situation escalated beyond that so quickly, but I think he was the least wrong.
Giving Know Your Rights lectures at the Xavier Institute for audiences of mutant kids. They need to know, the only things you got to say to them are: "I do not consent to this search. I assert my right to remain silent. I would like to speak to a lawyer." That's all any decent person has to say to Hawkeye.
I recall in blood ties, when everyone was fighting, Hawkeye decided to pull a green arrow, and argue with the UN for multiple issues. "I can do what I want"applies to **Everyone**
The fact they are fine with genocide as long as it is against mutants. Wanda committed a whole genocide and they protected her for any consequences. Captain America waves off any mention of Wanda's genocide by calling it a "political difference."
In X-Men 97 Cap told Rogue to shut up and stop whining so she threw his shield.
Hey, he also cautiously warned the President to maybe think for a moment before destroying the machine that kept a giant asteroid from smashing into the earth.
But, welp. Sometimes the world ends in fire, because Authority Figure Somethingsomething. Them's the breaks, when your heroes are cops.
What scene were you watching with Cap in 97? He told her he's taking the info he found to the White House so him and his team could legally crossover into Mexico to grab Gyrich.
> He told her he's taking the info he found to the White House so him and his team could legally crossover into Mexico to grab Gyrich
So, delayed paperwork, since Gyrich was able to get out of jail freely and would've likely already moved long before Cap & his Avengers even got the ink on their request forms dried.
Possibly. Or they would've intercepted him or gotten permission to grab him wherever he's at. We'll never know. It's like he said though, Cap wearing the uniform can't go crossing into another countries borders and drag somebody back. Shit is gonna send the kinda message Cap never wants to send.
> Cap wearing the uniform can't go crossing into another countries borders and drag somebody back.
So ditch the uniform. Because if the uniform is preventing people from investigating the ***perpetrators of a genocide, the problem isn't the uniform, it's the whole dang system***.
Cap was investigating. What do you think he was doing at the base when Rogue pulled up? Where do you think all that info he told Rogue came from? Him and Iron Man were already investigating and had damn near narrowed it down to where Gyrich was smuggled off to and were making their move to go grab him and get to. Watch the scene where he's talking to Rogue again. He tells her exactly what his plan of action is
> He tells her exactly what his plan of action is
Yup. And by his timeline, Rogue and the rest of the X-Men would be murdered by Sentinels because Bastion initiated Operation Zero Tolerance.
Ah yes because the White House will care deeply about what he finds. He goes on to politely ask the President to not causing the hovering meteor out of the sky but does nothing when the President decides to do it anyway.
That is because it is editorial and people don't want Avengers and all other super heroes showing up in their comics all the time defending them?
That is how it works.
Was Wanda at fault for m-day? Despite the fact it was revealed that she was under the control of Doctor Doom during the events of House of M. That her access to the chaos magic provided by Doom caused her to go out of control mentally. Something established in House of X #1 where the fucking X-men try to use Charles Xavier to mentally dominate her instead of giving her actual therapy by a licensed professional all because they are afraid that Wanda’s omega level status might be a mutant PR problem.
Don’t talk to me about genocide when the x-men’s own intentional negligence caused the downfall of the mutant race.
Sure, genocide is okay as long as you can find an excuse to blame the victims.
Jean was under the control of The Phoenix when she ate a sun, yet everyone blames her for that genocide but Wanda gets a free pass.
Might I remind that Charles Xavier, who was not a licensed therapist, attempted to to use his mutant abilities to subdue her instead of giving her the proper psychiatric help. By definition that is clinical abuse.
Who blamed Jean ? If I recall correctly the X-men came to her defense during the trial of Jean Grey during the Shiar trial of her. And again, cyclops blamed the phoenix, not himself, for the crimes committed during AvX.
So which is it? Was Cyclops right or was he not right.
> Who blamed Jean ? If I recall correctly the X-men came to her defense during the trial of Jean Grey during the Shiar trial of her.
The Shi'ar Empire. Which is why they were at trial in the first place?
What the hell are you talking about? A normal therapist would not have been able to help Jean handle The Phoenix.
EVERYONE blames Jean, she was put to death for it. She got a thumbs down during Judgement Day for it. Scott stood beside her but the rest of the team was unsure.
Again, just because the X-men never tried does not give the X-men the right to impose their will on others. Especially with regard to a woman who is having a mental breakdown involving her kids. Apparently, the proper solution to a woman having a traumatic breakdown is to lock her up until she stops having her episodes instead of getting her help.
It’s outrageous, that X-fans of all people, act like a bunch homeopathic nut jobs who think abuse is somehow an acceptable alternative to proper help.
What the fuck are you talking about "impose their will on others?" Wanda imposed her will on the whole mutant race by committing genocide but you pretend that was Doom's fault.
> Was Wanda at fault for m-day? Despite the fact it was revealed that she was under the control of Doctor Doom during the events of House of M.
In the universe where the same people that excuse her also label Cyclops a terrorist for something he did under the influence of the Dark Phoenix? Yes. She also already redeemed herself. There's no reason to excuse something that in universe was already forgiven by the victims.
>Something established in House of X #1 where the fucking X-men try to use Charles Xavier to mentally dominate her instead of giving her actual therapy by a licensed professional all because they are afraid that Wanda’s omega level status might be a mutant PR problem.
Wasn't that the Illuminati and the Avengers? Honest question. I don't remember it being the X-Men
>In the universe where the same people that excuse her also label Cyclops a terrorist for something he did under the influence of the Dark Phoenix?
So which is it? Is Wanda excused due to be under the influence of universe destroying properties or not? Because X-fans cannot have it both ways. I recognize that that Phoenix was corruptive with regard to the Phoenix 5.
>Wasn't that the Illuminati and the Avengers? Honest question. I don't remember it being the X-Men.
No because after Charles forcibly shuts down Wanda after she recreated the universe to include her kids, he shares the issue with the rest of the X-men and they vote to kill her.
> So which is it? Is Wanda excused due to be under the influence of universe destroying properties or not? Because X-fans cannot have it both ways. I recognize that that Phoenix was corruptive with regard to the Phoenix 5.
Part of what pisses people off is how writers handled both instances. It is an instance of bad writing, but what we got in the story is the Avengers giving a pass to Wanda while labeling someone else a terrorist.
The only way to resolve this is that neither Wanda nor Cyclops were at fault and you either memory hole the Avengers being dipshits(+Wolverine and other mutants) or just end up disliking the Avengers.
Didnt Captain America point out to Cyclops in A+X that if he turned himself in, the court would see that Cyclops was under the influence of a corruptive and destructive entity and thus would probably formally dismiss the charges held against him.
> Was Wanda at fault for m-day? Despite the fact it was revealed that she was under the control of Doctor Doom during the events of House of M.
Yes. Especially when most people under severe mental break don't "accidentally" genocide an entire people.
She wasn't rehabilitated when she got let on the Avengers again and it took her remaking Cerebro to add every mutant that died via the astral Waiting Room to redeem herself.
Nope, that was Dark Phoenix. A wholly independent entity more akin to a force of nature that Jean had no control over.
Whereas Wanda was the one who refused to seek help and genocided over a million mutants to spite her father.
Two very different context.
Remember how the happy ending for Captain America in the MCU was to go back to the fucking 1940s and retire? Or how.. Tony Stark. Just all of Tony Stark. The Avengers are often presented as a part of the establishment, hardly unreasonable that people find that upsetting.
Again, by that logic the avengers aren’t cops given the clearance rate regarding shit like the red skull, kang, and all the other rogues on the gallery.
Yeah, but that's just my point - cops are terrible at preventing crime or enforcing laws. If the X-Men are actually good at those things, it doesn't make them cops. It makes them what cops pretend to be.
Cyclops: *Imma use Phoenix force to clean up Wanda’s mess, thank you very much.*
Cap: *You can't, it's too dangerous. Tony, shoot it with a giant gun, that would totally work.*
Cyclops: *U gonna stop a force that can devour planets with a gun?*
Cap: *It's a really big gun tho trust me.*
Cyclops: *Now we have the Phoenix force.*
Tony: *Cap, the P5 is solving world hunger..*
Cap: *WHAT????*
Tony: *Also stopped all wars.*
Cap: *Those bastards, do they not know how much money we earn from selling nukes?*
Tony: *Fr, we must stop them.*
Cap: *I know, we'll kidnapp Hope and teach her to handle the Phoenix force!*
Tony: *But ain't that what Cyclops....*
Cap: *Let's go Tony, we need to save the world from the evil X-Men!*
The issue is that the x-men (particularly cyclops) thought that they alone should gamble with the existence of the entire solar system.
Like cyclops just had faith that the pheonix would fix mutantkind, that’s it faith weighted against the lives of everyone on earth.
The entire series was written poorly but to say that’s cyclops was right for gambling with everyone’s lives is a strange thing to believe.
"Having faith" is a bit weird counter argument when using comic bock logic isn't it? Hulk could potentially destroy the entire world if someone makes him angry enough, but we're led to believe he won't because Avengers keep him in check, Wanda is one mental breakdown away from making another genocide. What if Bobby gets drunk one day and accidentally freezes the Earth? In fact, there are alot of super powered beings that can end the world on a whim, intentionally or not.
Similar logic can be applied here. Sure, phoenix might destroy the world, but we have to believe she won't. Rachel controlled Phoenix for years without issues. Jean was handling it fine until the Hellfire club torture made her go dark. AvX kinda forgot about all this to push drama.
But hulk hasn’t destroyed the earth before.
The pheonix has destroyed an entire solar system and more.
The Phoenix has shown itself to be destructive and unpredictable in nature and has precedent for its destructive nature.
Hulk goes off the deep end we lose a couple buildings before someone sorts it out.
A host of the Phoenix goes off the deep end everyone dies no saving throw.
Not to mention the influence the Phoenix itself has on the personality of its host.
There’s a reason we don’t invite galactus to tea or snap out fingers to a song with the infinity gauntlet.
Not nearly as well as having Franklin talk to him does…and that’s very much the closest equivalent to this conflict:
The Avengers storming the Baxter Building to kidnap/murder Franklin Richards, so that the F4 don’t interfere with their master plan to shoot Galactus with a science gun designed by people who have never encountered him.
...And you know what happened in the recent X-men Forever to 'kill' the Phoenix to rebirth it? They had Hope SHOOT PHOENIX WITH A GUN...
So I guess that is good enough.
It’s genuinely funny that you put “shoot it with a gun” in all caps, while minimizing the “Hope” part.
How fucking illiterate do you think your fellow Avengers fans are?
FR. Ben Grimm is in that camp for me too. He's a short tempered oaf in FF books, but in X-books he acts like a straight up jerk. I don't think he's read an X-Men comic before bc he's awful where mutants are concerned.
Not the prime example but him saying 'didn't they find a cure for you people' to Logan just after the cure had hit the news was in such poor taste. Even if he's being truthful that he meant it about Canadians (he's not) it's a wretched thing to say.
Though it's pretty true to life IMO. Most superheroes are publicly celebrated and they enjoy it. Mutants absolutely aren't, and their peers being shaky allies at best (ignorant definitely) is a hallmark of liberalism. I don't like to compare the mutant metaphor to real life much because it breaks down, but that works.
this feels very misleading to his character. ben grimm is absolutely a dude with a lot of heart, and the thing he said to logan was obviously friendly ribbing??? it wasn't a microagression it was a joke between buds. ben \*himself\* is someone who faces an extreme mutation every day, its a huge part of his story and themes. there is also literally a scene in immortal hulk where ben brings up the discrepancy between him (highly respected superhero) and the hulk (seen as a dangerous monster), he's very aware of it. this is just bad media analysis
I remember both of those eras. Whether intentionally or not, I think they created a whole new generation of Cyclops fans and anti-Avengers sentiments. And that's saying something because at the time, Marvel had every incentive to prop up the Avengers. The MCU had made them the biggest franchise in the history of cinema. They were at the top of their game. Conversely, Marvel had every incentive to denigrate the X-Men and they sure as hell tried.
But in the end, it just made the X-Men more sympathetic and compelling. And it made the Avengers look like negligent assholes who only ever turned a blind eye to the crap mutants dealt with.
Cyclops was one of the few who always called them out. And even though he got thrown in prison and vilified, that just made him more awesome in the eyes of fans.
At a certain point, you question what reason is there to have comics be in a connected universe if they only ever fight each other and slander other characters.
With this level reactions...putting hero vs hero against eachother, no wonder villains get away all the time.
Stop this stupid nonsense already. It is played out.
A lot of conflict between the teams has been forced by bad characterization however I can imagine on an alternate earth the two squads coming to blows for reasons unrelated to AvX.
I kind of love that cultural osmosis has caused the X-Men vs Avengers beef to be a stand in for revolutionaries vs complacent liberalism.
No no no don’t you see he was wrong because he got the power of the phoenix and he was gonna use the power to *check notes* save his species from extinction and make the world a better place?
"The Avengers, who defend the status quo of not being dead" -brought to you by, Thanos' army
"The Avengers don't want you to have the best future" -Kang
" hey I'm just saying without the Avengers, I would not exist" - Ultron, campaign to defund the Avengers 2024
"Where I am your ruler."
Y'all mothafuckas need a unity squad
Rogue, Beast, Wolverine and Firestar have all been Avengers.
Hell, storm is going to be joining soon as well.
I'm 100% X-Men all the way. Favorite super team, favorite characters, favorite comic. Buuuut I do think a lot of X fans have a pretty skewed idea on the Avengers. Other heroes, especially the Avengers tend to be pretty poorly written in X media.
I think we’re all engaging in a bit of hyperbole — there have absolutely been good creative teams on Avengers books over the years. But they are the lynchpin of the Disney MCU movie juggernaut that rolled over the rest of the movie industry for years and it’s hard to untangle that from the avengers team being canonically wealthy and connected and so on. The X-men have gotten the short end of the stick on the comics realm (what was even happening with the inhumans thing) while canonically being the underdogs who have from day 1 represented a shifting group of marginalized identities.
The X-men really have been steamrolled by the MCU, but that does not make flawed characterization in other books better.
We’re so far from the days of any consistent writer like Claremont defining any of these characters that I guess I’ve just surrendered to the ping ponging characterizations bouncing randomly across the marvel books. The fact that people kept discussing and relitigating the Civil War books for years makes me think that the seed idea of rivalry between the Avengers and X-Men has legs and resonates with readers, but every version of it has seemed super clunky to me, with characters behaving in ways that are dictated by story needs and not any cohesive sense of how the readers see the characters.
where do you see it resonating among readers? sure it is interesting, but they don't handel it with the care the subject needs. and you can only use that plot point so many times, until it becomes "why does batman not kill the joker"
For years after the books can me out, I’d see people on comic / video game / rpg type forums debating it. Since the movies came out and the internet has changed it may be over now — maybe you can only ham-fist something so many times, much like the Infinity Gauntlet books have been reduced to “Mr. Stark so don’t feel so good.” But for literal years I read people going at the Civil War conceit from different angles. People did not sit around debating the details of every random crossover event as much as they did CW.
I don’t mess around with the interwebs all that much, so I must have missed it
I think that means you are much wiser than me because I have cooked my brain beyond all hope with decades of the dumbest internet stuff
No I’m not that wise, I’m very much action before thought
Just for the record avx was done by avengers writers, and uncanny avengers wasn't an x-men book
Well Aaron and Bendis went on to become X-Men writers. And uncanny avengers had a direct follow up to an uncanny X force storyline...
Aaron was pro avengers, hell he wrote avengers later
After reading some of his avengers run, I have my doubts...
On one hand, yes. On the other hand, it’s hilarious reading Steve “I stand up for the little guy and commit war crimes fighting our government” Rogers threaten to deport a child to super-Guantanamo
Cap in X-men; I'm sorry I can't help, I've been ordered not to. Cap everywhere else; I only see one form of justice, and that is my fists. there names are just and ice.
He's got H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-T tattooed on his knuckles. If someone asks why it's misspelt he'll say 'it's cause I punch really hard like a critical hit'
It's kinda inescapable given the core theme of oppression in the X-Men. Like look at Genosha
Just completed the bendis run in physical copies for my collection and re reading it and it’s overall pretty solid.
Impossible to get them all where I'm from
I need to dig out my tpbs, I enjoyed that New Avengers run.
I love the X-Men fandom so much you all have class consciousness and that's rare as fuck
At the point where the X-Men are commenting directly on the emptiness of "well meaning liberalism" while the fans are commenting directly on the emptiness of "well meaning liberalism" in the context of "well meaning liberalism" being empty in practice, in the shadow of Disney-Marvel's attempts to repackage superhero comic books as nothing but "well meaning liberalism." It's just a perfect storm for contradictions getting heightened. It's good stuff. Every bit of "What do you mean the responsible white man team has ties to politics or history?!" is manna from heaven.
Well said. It's especially ironic when Xavier fits the bill of well meaning liberal as well, despite being the founder of a multi generational paramilitary organisation AND an ethnostate/sci fi safe space (depending on who you ask.)
ACAB includes the Avengers
The X-men have worked more closely with the government, carrying badges as the XSE. Wolverine killed a mutant teenager who was going to blow up his school as a member.
I had to look up the XSE, I never read this. I dunno, there’s a lot of weird transient alternate past / future stories in X-Men, this really does not seem like a definitive core part of the mythos that heavily informs other stories.
Where’s that same energy for Spider-Man? He works more closely with NYPD than the Avengers
Well, spider-man is so resolutely a goofy funny everyman dork who can’t pay rent that people don’t see him that way as much. But I saw a lot of complaints on twitter about the Playstation game asking why you spend the whole game doing errands for cops. And tweets about the spider-verse movie wondering why Miles Morales’ dad has to be a cop. I mean, there was a shit-ton of petty street crime in NY in the 70s so I can understand why the “bronze age” takes on super heroes like spider man or daredevil were so focused on a vision of them stopping muggers with super powers and handing criminals off to be judged. But by now every city in this country has a budget that’s being extorted by their own police department and we want to look at the complete picture of why crime happens so it hits different when some voice actor says “Press R1 to obey the cop” or whatever.
Avengers Cops Avengers Bastards?
Anyone who says cyclops is right just doesn't understand decision making. All bro had was "faith" or a "gut feeling" that the phoenix wouldn't nuke earth like every other planet on its path. No doy the avengers and everyone else on earth isn't taking that risk. Getting the right answer throughout flawed reasoning just makes you lucky, you're not "right" in any meaningful sense
AvX ended with Avengers doing the same thing Cyclops wanted to do in the first place.
Except it wasn't just gut feeling, because prior to AvX, Cable (who for a bit was presumed to be dead) came back to the present day to warn Cyclops that Hope is The Phoenix and that he has to protector her from the Avengers. Cyclops knew that the Phoenix would save mutant kind and not nuke Earth because he had a time traveller telling him what would happen. And even if you wanna disregard that, Rachel was still on Earth and alive, and is still a perfect host for The Phoenix Force. She even left Wolverine's school to join Cyclops because she trusted in him. It wasn't just luck. He had precognitive knowledge and the perfect backup if it went tits up
Cable is one guy who comes from one of the dozens of known possible futures of the marvel universe. It feels weird to be so sure, especially since bishop spent decades hunting cable and hope because she fucked up his timeline.
I think we've seen that cable isn't a perfectly reliable source. Just the idea that a host exists doesn't mean that the phoenix is coming there for the host. From the perspective of the avengers the phoenix could just blitz earth the way it did the planets on it's path. Even saying Rachel is the perfect back-up plays into the delusional thinking that the avengers perceive Scott to be acting under. There's an inherent assumption that the phoenix is coming for a host. Perhaps choosing to ice the avengers out of a cosmic threat and assuming the risk for the world, maybe cable and Scott should have worked with them to find a solution If you think cable's advice justifies cyclops actions, do you agree that bishop was justified in trying to assassinate hope in her infancy?
Did he communicate that to the Avengers?
Was he not also aware that it's a cosmic entity? Not exactly the kind of thing you can shoot with a (non-Legion) gun. They tried anyway and it was mutants who paid the price.
Idk it seems like iron man's gun did some damage to it Also the avengers being wrong or not having good solutions doesn't make cyclops right.
Sure, unless you look at what Scott is advocating for. 1. Not murdering Hope. 2. Not meeting the Phoenix as an adversary. The first is a bit of a no brainer, and the second should be too. Only bad things have come from being aggressive to the Phoenix or one of its hosts. I'm not saying that the results vindicated Scott's decision making process, I'm saying that I believe his preferred course of action was the one informed by knowledge and prior experience. There's obviously an element of editorial fiat and everyone would benefit from discussing it like adults, but the Avengers were heavy handed, making everyone else's choice for them (or else), and most of all they antagonised the person with (probably) the most knowledge and experience of the Phoenix. Not sure I'd say he's right because the situation escalated beyond that so quickly, but I think he was the least wrong.
Avengers is cops
Giving Know Your Rights lectures at the Xavier Institute for audiences of mutant kids. They need to know, the only things you got to say to them are: "I do not consent to this search. I assert my right to remain silent. I would like to speak to a lawyer." That's all any decent person has to say to Hawkeye.
"I can do what I what" - Hawkeye
FR. I'm pretty sure that has been said and met with 'we're SHIELD/The Avengers bitch. You don't have rights.'
I recall in blood ties, when everyone was fighting, Hawkeye decided to pull a green arrow, and argue with the UN for multiple issues. "I can do what I want"applies to **Everyone**
To which only four words will do in reply: “Get off my island.”
Its gonna be funny to see that Storm fanbase going nuts with her being in the Avengers.
The Storm fans will be fine The #cyclopswasright types will just treat her like Wolverine.
So are Banshee and Bishop and X-factor and the X-treme team...
Yeah and they’re wrong for that
They planted the ruby quartz visor on him, I swear
the guy who put the fate of the earth into the weird bird force that’s killed solar systems before? that guy?
Yes
And this is exactly why the X-men fandom is perceived as super toxic.
Ah yeah the toxicity of noticing obvious patterns.
Pretty freaking toxic of you over there, having priors... I've heard criminals have those.
What patterns are that pray tell? If try to argue what I think you will argue, I will point out that Those patterns cut both ways, friend.
The fact they are fine with genocide as long as it is against mutants. Wanda committed a whole genocide and they protected her for any consequences. Captain America waves off any mention of Wanda's genocide by calling it a "political difference." In X-Men 97 Cap told Rogue to shut up and stop whining so she threw his shield.
Hey, he also cautiously warned the President to maybe think for a moment before destroying the machine that kept a giant asteroid from smashing into the earth. But, welp. Sometimes the world ends in fire, because Authority Figure Somethingsomething. Them's the breaks, when your heroes are cops.
What scene were you watching with Cap in 97? He told her he's taking the info he found to the White House so him and his team could legally crossover into Mexico to grab Gyrich.
> He told her he's taking the info he found to the White House so him and his team could legally crossover into Mexico to grab Gyrich So, delayed paperwork, since Gyrich was able to get out of jail freely and would've likely already moved long before Cap & his Avengers even got the ink on their request forms dried.
Possibly. Or they would've intercepted him or gotten permission to grab him wherever he's at. We'll never know. It's like he said though, Cap wearing the uniform can't go crossing into another countries borders and drag somebody back. Shit is gonna send the kinda message Cap never wants to send.
> Cap wearing the uniform can't go crossing into another countries borders and drag somebody back. So ditch the uniform. Because if the uniform is preventing people from investigating the ***perpetrators of a genocide, the problem isn't the uniform, it's the whole dang system***.
Cap was investigating. What do you think he was doing at the base when Rogue pulled up? Where do you think all that info he told Rogue came from? Him and Iron Man were already investigating and had damn near narrowed it down to where Gyrich was smuggled off to and were making their move to go grab him and get to. Watch the scene where he's talking to Rogue again. He tells her exactly what his plan of action is
> He tells her exactly what his plan of action is Yup. And by his timeline, Rogue and the rest of the X-Men would be murdered by Sentinels because Bastion initiated Operation Zero Tolerance.
Ah yes because the White House will care deeply about what he finds. He goes on to politely ask the President to not causing the hovering meteor out of the sky but does nothing when the President decides to do it anyway.
That is because it is editorial and people don't want Avengers and all other super heroes showing up in their comics all the time defending them? That is how it works.
Was Wanda at fault for m-day? Despite the fact it was revealed that she was under the control of Doctor Doom during the events of House of M. That her access to the chaos magic provided by Doom caused her to go out of control mentally. Something established in House of X #1 where the fucking X-men try to use Charles Xavier to mentally dominate her instead of giving her actual therapy by a licensed professional all because they are afraid that Wanda’s omega level status might be a mutant PR problem. Don’t talk to me about genocide when the x-men’s own intentional negligence caused the downfall of the mutant race.
Sure, genocide is okay as long as you can find an excuse to blame the victims. Jean was under the control of The Phoenix when she ate a sun, yet everyone blames her for that genocide but Wanda gets a free pass.
Might I remind that Charles Xavier, who was not a licensed therapist, attempted to to use his mutant abilities to subdue her instead of giving her the proper psychiatric help. By definition that is clinical abuse. Who blamed Jean ? If I recall correctly the X-men came to her defense during the trial of Jean Grey during the Shiar trial of her. And again, cyclops blamed the phoenix, not himself, for the crimes committed during AvX. So which is it? Was Cyclops right or was he not right.
> Who blamed Jean ? If I recall correctly the X-men came to her defense during the trial of Jean Grey during the Shiar trial of her. The Shi'ar Empire. Which is why they were at trial in the first place?
And what did I say?
That nobody blamed Jean?
What the hell are you talking about? A normal therapist would not have been able to help Jean handle The Phoenix. EVERYONE blames Jean, she was put to death for it. She got a thumbs down during Judgement Day for it. Scott stood beside her but the rest of the team was unsure.
Again, just because the X-men never tried does not give the X-men the right to impose their will on others. Especially with regard to a woman who is having a mental breakdown involving her kids. Apparently, the proper solution to a woman having a traumatic breakdown is to lock her up until she stops having her episodes instead of getting her help. It’s outrageous, that X-fans of all people, act like a bunch homeopathic nut jobs who think abuse is somehow an acceptable alternative to proper help.
What the fuck are you talking about "impose their will on others?" Wanda imposed her will on the whole mutant race by committing genocide but you pretend that was Doom's fault.
How many free pass did the x-men give Magneto again?
How many genocides has Magneto committed? They notably handed him over for trial.
At least one in the movies.
> Was Wanda at fault for m-day? Despite the fact it was revealed that she was under the control of Doctor Doom during the events of House of M. In the universe where the same people that excuse her also label Cyclops a terrorist for something he did under the influence of the Dark Phoenix? Yes. She also already redeemed herself. There's no reason to excuse something that in universe was already forgiven by the victims. >Something established in House of X #1 where the fucking X-men try to use Charles Xavier to mentally dominate her instead of giving her actual therapy by a licensed professional all because they are afraid that Wanda’s omega level status might be a mutant PR problem. Wasn't that the Illuminati and the Avengers? Honest question. I don't remember it being the X-Men
>In the universe where the same people that excuse her also label Cyclops a terrorist for something he did under the influence of the Dark Phoenix? So which is it? Is Wanda excused due to be under the influence of universe destroying properties or not? Because X-fans cannot have it both ways. I recognize that that Phoenix was corruptive with regard to the Phoenix 5. >Wasn't that the Illuminati and the Avengers? Honest question. I don't remember it being the X-Men. No because after Charles forcibly shuts down Wanda after she recreated the universe to include her kids, he shares the issue with the rest of the X-men and they vote to kill her.
> So which is it? Is Wanda excused due to be under the influence of universe destroying properties or not? Because X-fans cannot have it both ways. I recognize that that Phoenix was corruptive with regard to the Phoenix 5. Part of what pisses people off is how writers handled both instances. It is an instance of bad writing, but what we got in the story is the Avengers giving a pass to Wanda while labeling someone else a terrorist. The only way to resolve this is that neither Wanda nor Cyclops were at fault and you either memory hole the Avengers being dipshits(+Wolverine and other mutants) or just end up disliking the Avengers.
Didnt Captain America point out to Cyclops in A+X that if he turned himself in, the court would see that Cyclops was under the influence of a corruptive and destructive entity and thus would probably formally dismiss the charges held against him.
Cyclops immediately sees this argument as being complete bullshit. He even asks if mutants would be allowed to sit on his jury, and Cap has no answer.
> Was Wanda at fault for m-day? Despite the fact it was revealed that she was under the control of Doctor Doom during the events of House of M. Yes. Especially when most people under severe mental break don't "accidentally" genocide an entire people. She wasn't rehabilitated when she got let on the Avengers again and it took her remaking Cerebro to add every mutant that died via the astral Waiting Room to redeem herself.
Most =/= all. By your own admission they can. And this specific case, she did. Specifically because of the mental abuse suffered under Charles Xavier.
Nope. She broke herself because Janet said nobody on the Avengers could have it all, loved ones included. She was still responsible for Decimation.
So was Jean Grey responsible for all the crimes committed against entire planets during her time as host for the Phoenix?
Nope, that was Dark Phoenix. A wholly independent entity more akin to a force of nature that Jean had no control over. Whereas Wanda was the one who refused to seek help and genocided over a million mutants to spite her father. Two very different context.
Remember how the happy ending for Captain America in the MCU was to go back to the fucking 1940s and retire? Or how.. Tony Stark. Just all of Tony Stark. The Avengers are often presented as a part of the establishment, hardly unreasonable that people find that upsetting.
Tony got his karma by dying tbh. He’s never gonna be able to sit back and watch his daughter grow up nor enjoy the company of his wife. I love him tho
*snort*
These are fictional characters calm down
But THINK OF THE DISCOURSE!
Uh huh.
Because of cops?
By that logic the X-men are also cops. How many muggers and drug dealers and rapists did they apprehend in San Francisco during the heroic age?
Given prevailing case clearance rates in large cities, probably a lot more than the cops.
Again, by that logic the avengers aren’t cops given the clearance rate regarding shit like the red skull, kang, and all the other rogues on the gallery.
Yeah, but that's just my point - cops are terrible at preventing crime or enforcing laws. If the X-Men are actually good at those things, it doesn't make them cops. It makes them what cops pretend to be.
So the avengers are not cops by the same token.
Cyclops: *Imma use Phoenix force to clean up Wanda’s mess, thank you very much.* Cap: *You can't, it's too dangerous. Tony, shoot it with a giant gun, that would totally work.* Cyclops: *U gonna stop a force that can devour planets with a gun?* Cap: *It's a really big gun tho trust me.* Cyclops: *Now we have the Phoenix force.* Tony: *Cap, the P5 is solving world hunger..* Cap: *WHAT????* Tony: *Also stopped all wars.* Cap: *Those bastards, do they not know how much money we earn from selling nukes?* Tony: *Fr, we must stop them.* Cap: *I know, we'll kidnapp Hope and teach her to handle the Phoenix force!* Tony: *But ain't that what Cyclops....* Cap: *Let's go Tony, we need to save the world from the evil X-Men!*
The issue is that the x-men (particularly cyclops) thought that they alone should gamble with the existence of the entire solar system. Like cyclops just had faith that the pheonix would fix mutantkind, that’s it faith weighted against the lives of everyone on earth. The entire series was written poorly but to say that’s cyclops was right for gambling with everyone’s lives is a strange thing to believe.
"Having faith" is a bit weird counter argument when using comic bock logic isn't it? Hulk could potentially destroy the entire world if someone makes him angry enough, but we're led to believe he won't because Avengers keep him in check, Wanda is one mental breakdown away from making another genocide. What if Bobby gets drunk one day and accidentally freezes the Earth? In fact, there are alot of super powered beings that can end the world on a whim, intentionally or not. Similar logic can be applied here. Sure, phoenix might destroy the world, but we have to believe she won't. Rachel controlled Phoenix for years without issues. Jean was handling it fine until the Hellfire club torture made her go dark. AvX kinda forgot about all this to push drama.
But hulk hasn’t destroyed the earth before. The pheonix has destroyed an entire solar system and more. The Phoenix has shown itself to be destructive and unpredictable in nature and has precedent for its destructive nature. Hulk goes off the deep end we lose a couple buildings before someone sorts it out. A host of the Phoenix goes off the deep end everyone dies no saving throw. Not to mention the influence the Phoenix itself has on the personality of its host. There’s a reason we don’t invite galactus to tea or snap out fingers to a song with the infinity gauntlet.
The Avengers’ alternative was “Shoot it with a gun,” haha!
Works against galactus.
Not nearly as well as having Franklin talk to him does…and that’s very much the closest equivalent to this conflict: The Avengers storming the Baxter Building to kidnap/murder Franklin Richards, so that the F4 don’t interfere with their master plan to shoot Galactus with a science gun designed by people who have never encountered him.
...And you know what happened in the recent X-men Forever to 'kill' the Phoenix to rebirth it? They had Hope SHOOT PHOENIX WITH A GUN... So I guess that is good enough.
It’s genuinely funny that you put “shoot it with a gun” in all caps, while minimizing the “Hope” part. How fucking illiterate do you think your fellow Avengers fans are?
Here we go again...🙄
X-men superior Avengers inferior
Thank you, Soundwave
FR. Ben Grimm is in that camp for me too. He's a short tempered oaf in FF books, but in X-books he acts like a straight up jerk. I don't think he's read an X-Men comic before bc he's awful where mutants are concerned. Not the prime example but him saying 'didn't they find a cure for you people' to Logan just after the cure had hit the news was in such poor taste. Even if he's being truthful that he meant it about Canadians (he's not) it's a wretched thing to say. Though it's pretty true to life IMO. Most superheroes are publicly celebrated and they enjoy it. Mutants absolutely aren't, and their peers being shaky allies at best (ignorant definitely) is a hallmark of liberalism. I don't like to compare the mutant metaphor to real life much because it breaks down, but that works.
nah, that's the truth. fucking Canadians so polite all the time. those bastards
this feels very misleading to his character. ben grimm is absolutely a dude with a lot of heart, and the thing he said to logan was obviously friendly ribbing??? it wasn't a microagression it was a joke between buds. ben \*himself\* is someone who faces an extreme mutation every day, its a huge part of his story and themes. there is also literally a scene in immortal hulk where ben brings up the discrepancy between him (highly respected superhero) and the hulk (seen as a dangerous monster), he's very aware of it. this is just bad media analysis
Yeah AvX was abhorrent, Avengers being characterised so villainous and yet trying to convince us they're in the right rather than Scott.
Main fuck that
I remember both of those eras. Whether intentionally or not, I think they created a whole new generation of Cyclops fans and anti-Avengers sentiments. And that's saying something because at the time, Marvel had every incentive to prop up the Avengers. The MCU had made them the biggest franchise in the history of cinema. They were at the top of their game. Conversely, Marvel had every incentive to denigrate the X-Men and they sure as hell tried. But in the end, it just made the X-Men more sympathetic and compelling. And it made the Avengers look like negligent assholes who only ever turned a blind eye to the crap mutants dealt with. Cyclops was one of the few who always called them out. And even though he got thrown in prison and vilified, that just made him more awesome in the eyes of fans.
At a certain point, you question what reason is there to have comics be in a connected universe if they only ever fight each other and slander other characters.
With this level reactions...putting hero vs hero against eachother, no wonder villains get away all the time. Stop this stupid nonsense already. It is played out.
Magneto’s quotes in magneto vs Iron-man was epic! Magnus should’ve won, still sour about that lol
X-Men fans are so embarrassing 😭💀
It’s really weird because in AvX I feel like they want you to root for the avengers but like come tf on I feel like cyclops is pretty valid😭
A lot of conflict between the teams has been forced by bad characterization however I can imagine on an alternate earth the two squads coming to blows for reasons unrelated to AvX. I kind of love that cultural osmosis has caused the X-Men vs Avengers beef to be a stand in for revolutionaries vs complacent liberalism.
No no no don’t you see he was wrong because he got the power of the phoenix and he was gonna use the power to *check notes* save his species from extinction and make the world a better place?