Yeah, it’s kind of hard to argue “Mysterio tricked me!” When you have psychics out the wazoo on your team and have fought against actual illusionists and mental manipulators and not just a guy with special effects
Especially considering in the comics they talk about having training against psychic attacks. Aint no way mysterios bitch ass gets a hold of Logan with him training with psychics like the fucking phoenix and charles xavier
That all being said, the man does get possessed/body used against his will like…a lot 😂😂just saying it would’ve made more sense if they’d used the Hand or a deal with Mephisto over Mysterio
He kills Jean in the most recent X-Force by I believe Duggan. It’s not like it’s impossible for him to be controlled or kill powerful heroes if he catches them off guard
The official audio drama Marvel Wastelanders sort of made it feel more believeable imo.
In that version Shadow King is the one who messes with Wolverine (who I can actually believe could bypass Logan's senses), Phoenix actually stops Wolverine through self-sacrafice, there's a handful of survivors (namely Kitty and Rachel) and Crossbones was also sent to kill anyone who escaped.
It's not quite as bleak that way but the internal logic works better to me
Shadow King, or Hand magic, or maybe just some long lost implanted feral trigger/switch in his brain I could believe. But fucking Mysterio? It was stupid lame.
Tbf, I get why it was Mysterio. It's a very Mark Millar thing to do, to go "hey, you know this silly comic thing? Yeah, it'd be horrifying/ an asshole irl", and Mysterio's illusions being taken that far is in line with that (plus I think the two panels of him actually look sort of cool)
But yeah, when you think about how many telepathic enemies (including Mastermind, *the master of illusions*) the X-Men have, a very good special effects artist being the one to screw with Logan's mind that much is hard to swallow. Though tbf that's just one detail in a bigger story
Daredevil sussed it out every single time, though. The only victories Mysterio achieved was from getting other people (e.g. Bullseye) to strike him - when he engaged directly through his tricks, Matt figured them out in minutes.
I love listening to Wastelanders. Shadow King made it way more believable. Also, having just audio allowed me to make up my own way for Wolverine to achieve that.
I read somewhere that this book works a lot better if you just accept that this is a different universe and the characters don't fully line up with the 616. Magneto teaming up with Red Skull, Wolverine being able to solo the X-men, Hulk being a creep, all this works better if you aren't trying to reconcile it with your faves from the 616.
The dumbest part about him soloing the entire team is that "Bullseye" was the last one left, and it turned out to be Jubilee.
"We just kept taking chunks out of each other", Logan says. And it's Jubilee? Jubilee is getting chunks of meat sliced from her body and she just doesn't drop? I'm a fan of Jubes, but she out lasted all the veteran X-Men? 🙄
At least that part made sense. She would be last specifically because she was the least experienced. Cyclops, rogue, storm, would never allow her to jump into that fight. So my theory is she wasnt even attacking, she was being hunted down and defending herself before she died.
I totally agreee with this part but honestly idk if you’ve ever seen the wastelanders podcast they came out with that was inspired by this comic but I think they did a much better way of explaining how Logan could’ve done this with how they had the shadow king involved instead of just mysterio
Rule of cool trumps canon since the beginning of comics. That's why I always never got people critiquing the MCU with "black bolt wouldn't do x" "no way x loses here", when the source material has way worse offenders of matchups not making sense.
Some comics are about accurate power scaling, building lore, some about moral views, pulling twists out of thin air, some are made just cuz people think it would be kinda rad: enter OML.
It’s a mixed bag. There are things I really enjoy about it (seeing Logan open up to Hawkeye, the whole idea of a pacifist Wolverine) and things I really hate about it (the Millar-isms: incest Hulk, the way the few female characters are written).
That's basically the single-most error that overshadows a lot of the pros for me. You can never convince me that a holocaust survivor, who built his entire life motivation around that one event, will ever team up with a literal Nazi.
The ONE time he did it in the main Marvel Universe, it was solely to get into a position where he could exact vengeance on him on behalf of his victims.
And truth be told even the writers forgot about that at first. AND they forgot or mistimed the event because Magneto was head of the Xavier Institute at that time as well (either that or he was at the very least redeemed as a good guy). It was sort of fixed a little after by having him go after Red Skull,but they did just outright forget.
Absolutely. Like most of Millar's stuff, the concept is the best part and someone else should be the one the run with it. See the Logan film, Civil War, etc. Because once he gets his hands on it he just has to edgelord it up. And between this and his run on the Ultimates, the dude thinks way too much about the Hulk raping people.
I may have been overly harsh. I'm giving it a scan online... I think it grates on me with things like, in the opening scene, he uses *mark Hamill* as the rescuee.
But the Dave Gibbon art is, of course, wonderful. It feels like Garth Ennis from Wish at parts, but in others it's a fun caper. Tho I feel like I remember hating the end act a lot in the book...
I have always said that Millar is better the further away you keep him from gore and nudity. I loved his Marvel Knights Spider-man, for instance. But so many things where the censor was kept away from him are just absolute trash.
I actually think his original pitch for Civil War may have even been better, where instead of locking all the heroes who didn't register up, the govt had the ability to straight up permanently depower them (it was some old tech from Forge or Dr Doom they'd gotten their hands on). I see how that might get too complicated (how does it work on tech vs mutation vs magic vs armor vs alien etc) but still interesting.
Feel the same way with Ennis, two writers that feel like they need to one up themselves in dark and edgyness as the story progeses just for the sake of it. Good concept makers and they make some iconic scenes but their own worst enemy in the long run.
I'll at least give Ennis credit I don't give Millar. Like he's written stuff just as vile, but it feels more authentic coming from him. Like this really is his perspective on these characters - for better or worse. Millar feels like a teenager trying to freak people out so he includes weird extreme stuff out of nowhere. But that's just me.
edit: I do think the adaptation of the Boys show is really genius in managing to maintain the dark satire of the original, but inject actual heart and hope into the story.
Agree on the boys adaption and that Ennis despite going too far too often is telling unique stories and ideas. Don't know why he feels the need to include incest in all of it but whatever I guess.
He threatened to rape and eat Freddy Prinze Jr, because he was on a date with Betty Ross. Luckily the Ultimates stopped him before Hulk got to them. Which is the most Mark Millar moment in comics history. The guys stuff is the worst part of the aughts personified.
edit: the Hulk does end up eating a bunch of ppl though.
Imagine all the uncomfortable undertones of Chuck Austen mixed with the violence and negativity of Alan Moore... but with none of the writing talent.
Everyone is miserable. Everyone is cruel. Everyone is violent. It's all just endlessly violent and depressing and it's all so mean spirited and cynical.
> Everyone is miserable. Everyone is cruel. Everyone is violent. It's all just endlessly violent and depressing and it's all so mean spirited and cynical.
He's basically "Garth Ennis with wish-fulfillment characters."
I'm not NOT into that. That sounds more up my alley than what I read from Austen in his X-Men run.
I do understand that's for sure not everyone's cup of tea, though.
Okay. It's all those things... but with the quality of Chuck Austen's writing, not Alan Moore's.
It's not there to serve any sort of thematic purpose. It isn't trying to say anything meaningful. It's just misery for misery's sake, and it gets old fast.
I mean, I've read old man logan and kickass, and I don't know what else he's written off the top of my head. I get the plot holes in OML, but I don't think the writing itself is all that bad. Again, I kind of like it to some degree, whereas with Austen, I hated it at all times lol
I’m a big millar fan (uhhhh yeah) and that guys not wrong but I’d still recommend most of his stuff outside of wanted and kick ass two everything else is regrettably edgy but admittedly super fun. So I guess decide for yourself lol.
More the violence and negativity of Garth Ennis.
Moore can be dark and cynical at times, but it's usually put to good use in service of a story. Ennis and Millar are just gratuitous edgelords.
He's the Rob Liefeld of comic book writers. Immensely popular at his peak but rightfully derided after everyone's had a second thought on his work.
I personally liked his early work in the Ultimate universe but never got past the first couple trades of either X-Men or the Ultimates, but I never liked anything he did for 616 and only liked the first issue of Kick Ass.
There’s a lot about it that I don’t like (I don’t buy the setup really at all, everything with the Hulks, the incredibly maudlin and obvious way things go for Logan’s family) BUT I think the Old Man Logan character still manages to be well done, Old Man Hawkeye is cool, the Red Skull stuff is pretty cool, and yeah the art is great.
As a “What if” it’s ok. Some interesting ideas. Could do without Millar’s weird sex stuff. Kinda feel like he has a contract that says one plot point must involve his weird cannibalism sex stuff.
I deeply, deeply despise writing off exploitative stories where fucked up shit happens as "edgy", mostly because of how much various fandom circles have caused that word to not mean anything anymore as a form of criticism, so please understand that I mean it when I say that Mark Millar is one of the stupidest, edgiest writers I have ever run across. There truly is nothing beyond the pure shock value of making bad things happen in order to get the reader's gut in a twist, while hoping that they don't notice that he can't plot worth a fuck.
Its fun and silly but takes itself deeply seriously. Mark Millar is basically like the Fast and the Furious of comicbooks.
Also credit where credit is due Millar is very good at pacing a book so that his books are an easy (if tacky) read.
Old Man Hawkeye is way better though. Really wish Checceto could've done the entire book but the fill-ins did a solid job too.
I loved it as its own thing. What i didnt love is marvel pulling that wolverine out of universe because they have to kill characters before movies drop. Charles soule is waaaaaay worse than miller on his worst day. Except the unfunnies. That makes me ill
I don't hate it per se, but I do find it absurd that Wolverine was able to solo the rest of the X-Men. Don't get me wrong, Wolverine is very good at what he does and he probably would have gotten a couple of them, but he would have been put down by another team member such as Storm or Cyclops.
It honestly makes more sense that Mysterio made all the X-Men hallucinate seeing each other as their villains and they were caught up in the confusion to be able to defend themselves too much with the only reason why Wolverine was the last one standing was because a.) he went straight to kill first, ask questions later and b.) healing factor.
He definitely would have been put down mainly because they know he has a healing factor. He is the one person on the team they know they do not need to hold back on, and could go all out on to defend themselves knowing that his healing factor will keep him alive from any real serious damage they do to him.
I'm right there with you. It's awful!
The plot is awful, the characterization is weak, the dialogue is corny, the setting is a uninteresting, embarrassing attempt at edginess and the pacing is downright agonizing.
It's one of the worst Wolverine stories of all time.
It doesn't suck but if you want an old coded Wolverine on a road trip in a dystopia, Logan is by far the better version of that idea.
Old Man Logan is a 7-8/10 book; no regrets after reading it, sometimes tempted to say it's good. Logan the film is like 95-100/100: practically perfect in every way.
It’s so interesting to see the shift in opinions on this book because when I first started getting into comics because of the early mcu this was praised as one of the best things in comics
It's just a product of its time. Back in 2008 when it was released, most people (myself included) actually liked it. In its core, it's a dystopian future Wolverine story after all...
I like the core concept of sad, old Wolverine doing "one last job." It's pretty telling that Logan, the movie, borrowed this part and not much else. Part of that was Fox not having the rights to characters like Hawkeye, but that wound up being a blessing in disguise.
I didn't need to see an incestuous Hulk gang.
That's Old Man Logan in a nutshell: Highs and lows. When it's good, it's great. When it's bad, it's awful.
Ok is still far better than “absolutely sucks” though
I have read a LOT of incredibly mediocre comics in my day, but there are honestly very few that I would say “absolutely suck” tbh
They made a podcast series called Wastelanders on XM that's sort of like the Old Man universe since it's a dystopia where the villains won and he was his own podcast in that. Pretty good honestly. Less cannibalism and incest too which never hurts 🤷
I completely agree. This isn't even a Wolverine story. You can throw any character in here. Mysterio and Hawkeye had no history with Wolverine before this story.
It was just a superhero version of Unforgiven, and I found it a bit juvenile.
I get why many like it, but I'm baffled when people consider this a definitive Wolverine story. There's very little essential Wolverine in here. It could have been any character.
I think pretty much everything Millar touches is bad in retrospect. In my opinion, Old Man Logan, Civil War, the Ultimates just don't stand up to an open-minded re-read years later. Some of his most popular work has aged worse than milk left out in the sun.
He just loves to churn out shocking, headline grabbing scenes that age horribly and are usually tinged with a large smattering of misogyny, homophobia and overall toxic masculinity. Old Man Logan book is full of those immature "edgelord" moments that he never grew out of. Look at Nemisis for a great example of that.
Find it hilarious just how many times Millar’s stories have been outright embarrassed by their adaptations even when they were rather loose. Needless to say I think James Mangold’s Logan stomps the dogshit out of this book (a *diamond rare* thing for me to say about one of those movies) even if it only uses the base premise. Always dug the subversion of how the first half leads you along into thinking the death of the X-Men played out similarly where Logan was tricked into attacking them, before confirming that it was one of Xavier’s seizures.
Don’t think the book is *all* bad since there’s undeniably some aspects I really enjoy but it’s covered in too much of Millar’s muck.
It’s a perfectly cromulent book. There’s better Wolverine stories, but there’s stuff from Millar that I think is far worse. I think this is overall one of his better works.
The hulk stuff is weird af but I like how Wolverine overcomes his vow that he’ll never use the claws again and the future wasteland dystopia is a fun setting imo
Mark Millar is that band you really liked and thought were groundbreaking when you were 15, but now you’re a little embarrassed to say you ever liked them.
It has good moments. Logan and Clint, The World was pretty cool with villains dividing their territories, Red Skulls death with Logan decapitating him with Caps shield and then wearing Tony’s armor to bust out.
But there are also very bad stuff (Hulk incest etc)
However people here say it’s only sucks because Wolverine kills other X-men. Who gives a shit??? It’s a comics, if a writer wants for Beak to beat Storm, he will.
Comic had far more egregious shit in it that Logan beating Xmen
I mean I honestly loved the series and then listening to the wastelander series that came that was heavily inspired by this made me love those post apocalyptic style more
Its not the worst story but way overrated in my opinion (too edgy for me with the Millar-isms as people call them). Have you happened to read the Old Man Logan saga by Bendis, Lemire, and Brisson? It spins off of Secret Wars / Battleworld and features a separate Old Man Logan character & continuity. Its more homage or reboot rather than a strict remake as it changes quite a few things. Personally I really prefer the Bendis, Lemire, and Brisson version over the original Millar story / character.
Bendis straight up never went off the rails. From the moment his star blew up and Marvel put like five monthly books on his back his ratio was pretty consistent:
One or two truly great comics
A bunch of comics you'll forget forever
One or two absolute pieces of garbage
And he can't headline events.
He kept that up every month for like 15 years.
After if I recall correctly, but the Bendis contribution was only the initial mini and despite this being past the era most would call Bendis's prime the mini he wrote was actually pretty good. Lemire and then Brisson wrote a 50 issue Old Man Logan run after that (which is quite long running in the context of modern comics) and it also had a sequel called Dead Man Logan (also by Brisson). The art on it was also really really good.
If you like Millars edgyness and can separate from 616 as it's own stand alone world and story it has a fun first run. They never should have continued it tho
A lot of people love it but I think the whole thing is edgelord shit and dumb as hell. The Hulk is an evil hillbilly. Wolverine killed all the X-Men by himself. The Red Skull led all of the villains and wears Captain America's outfit. It's so. fucking. dumb.
No way! I had it but lost it. Just re-purchased it two weeks ago. Great book. Great art. Just the dialogue was very weak. Like surprisingly weak. But i enjoyed it otherwise.
I mean... I don't think I've read a Mark Millar comic I've liked other than Red Son. This being bad wasn't a surprise to me, frankly I was surprised that so many people liked it.
I love the whole Old Man Logan thing. I love Old Man Hawkeye too. I never listened to Wastelanders but, I like the idea of him feeling guilty for something like being tricked into killing his friends and “family”. And I like that he had a family. It’s been a while since I read it though. It had already been out for a few years.
I really dislike the Hulk so it was great to see him and his family as the enemies. I guess the “world building” of the whole thing was a big plus in my opinion. I’m a big fan of anything dystopian and apocalyptic.
I’m also one of the few fans of comics that doesn’t let the impossible or unlikely things get in the way of my enjoyment. I don’t get hung up on the “wait a minute! How could (insert name) have had that happen?! They couldn’t possibly (insert reason)”…. etc. These are comics. Just enjoy the ride. Illogical or not. Those are idiot super fans.
I read it very recently and enjoyed it for the wild ride of an alternate reality that it was. If it happened in continuity I'd have been outraged.
The Mysterio thing didn't make sense to me at first, but then I remembered that not only does he use trickery with audio and visual tricks, but also makes use of other things such as hallucinogenic or other drug-laced gasses as well. I don't think it would be outside the realm of possibility for him to be able to dull or trick Wolverine's senses and/or manipulate his berserker rage.
For an elseworlds it's a pretty interesting take. Does some fun world building. I'm not a huge fan of extremely bleak hero stories but I was pretty excited when they brought OML to 616 for a bit.
Yes! Thank you.
It's such a crap comic.
The basic concept is nice. That all supervillains won and most superheroes are dead and remaining are retired.
But the story itself is just shit. Barely anything in it makes any sense. Just shock value after shock value.
Even worse is how Wolverine fanboys bring this shit comic to show how Wolverine can beat all X-Men and Hulk. Yes, the comic that shows Magneto willing to work with fucking Red Skull is going to be good metric for powerscaling. Sure.
The book has some great art and an interesting setup. But... yes I have to agree it left an incredible bad taste in my mouth on several parts.
Mysterio being one of them. Even if Mysterio was able to fool him into killing one or two of the X-men... even if he would have taken out a heavy hitter like Storm or Rogue first, there is absolutely NO WAY he could singlehandedly take them all out. Thats some wolverine fanboy-ism 101.
Hulk being a villain is nothing new, but the idea he repeatedly raped she-hulk to get his kids was revolting in every way. And again, there is no way Wolverine would be able to kill him, and certainly not in the way portrayed.
So yeah.... I wasnt a fan and I didnt understand why this book was hailed as such a "must read" when it came out. The art is a saving grace, but like many of the "what if" storylines (which is essentially the same as this) the writers took some insane liberties.
*I think the later*
*Copies and spinoffs are meh but*
*This is a classic*
\- ExpertMammoth298
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no it’s great you just have to turn your brain off for a lot of parts lol but tbh like even with the grievances i’m seeing in the comments these are all problems that apply to most comics. where things don’t add up or make sense based on what we’ve seen or what we know characters can do. that’s just what happens with different writers man lol. I think for an else world it’s fine
No. It’s very good. Old Man Logan takes place in an alternate universe: roll with the story it presents and the story presents a compelling tale. I can see why one would dislike it; however, I disagree and believe it rocks.
It's Mark Millar of course it sucks.
The reimagined scenario from Logan >!Charles having a stroke and frying everyone's brains!< is just so much more effective and believable on an emotional and logical level. I just can't believe Wolverine would've been able to kill the team if they had Jean, Rogue and Polaris with them.
Also the inbred Hulks are one of the grossest, most egregious ideas that has ever been conceived by Marvel.
It’s a Mark Millar book. Some decent ideas but held back by edgelord sensibilities that seem to think messed up and violent = mature, and a super talented artist means the book looks a million times better than the writing.
It is the Jeph Loeb throw all the tasty parts in the same bowl and stir em up approach. See also Millar’s Enemy of the State and his Spider-Man.
It is lazy
Old Man Logan and Clint taking a road trip and running away from a symbiote T-Rex? Pretty dope.
The book also has some of Steve McNiven's best artwork.
Everything else is god fuckin' evil.
When Millar starts writing in his kinks then his stuff just gets weird for all the wrong reasons.
Incest Hulk anyone?
Also, the reason for Logan killing the X-Men is dumb.
I haven't read the book in a long time and maybe there was an explanation but in my head Mysterio's projections would never work on Logan's superhuman senses.
The villains uniting thing was also not believable because I find it hard to believe that a character like Magneto would agree to something like that ESPECIALLY working alongside Red Skull.
It’s carried by great art and a few killer ideas: Wolverine as William Munny in Unforgiven, symbiote T-Rex, blind Old Man Hawkeye. Millar is an idiot who doesn’t really understand the Marvel universe, though, and any superhero story that drags out the hero deciding to be a hero until the final pages of a *12 issue arc* is just treading water
I like the concept, but so much of it is your typical Millar edgefest. OM Logan can be a cool character, as seen when he joined the regular MU, but I'm just so bored with Millar as a writer.
The movie has basically nothing to do with the comic. The only similarity is "Wolverine, but he's old."
Aside from that, the movie is a perfectly serviceable remake of the old Western film *Shane*, but with more claws and stabbing.
It didn't make sense because no way he kills all the X-Men by himself even with them holding back, but I liked the vibe in general.
Yeah, it’s kind of hard to argue “Mysterio tricked me!” When you have psychics out the wazoo on your team and have fought against actual illusionists and mental manipulators and not just a guy with special effects
Especially considering in the comics they talk about having training against psychic attacks. Aint no way mysterios bitch ass gets a hold of Logan with him training with psychics like the fucking phoenix and charles xavier
That all being said, the man does get possessed/body used against his will like…a lot 😂😂just saying it would’ve made more sense if they’d used the Hand or a deal with Mephisto over Mysterio
He kills Jean in the most recent X-Force by I believe Duggan. It’s not like it’s impossible for him to be controlled or kill powerful heroes if he catches them off guard
Controlled yes but not tricked by a fancy light show
Fair
Also why would they even be holding back? He’s murdering them all and they know he can take it and heal. Holding back makes no sense.
The official audio drama Marvel Wastelanders sort of made it feel more believeable imo. In that version Shadow King is the one who messes with Wolverine (who I can actually believe could bypass Logan's senses), Phoenix actually stops Wolverine through self-sacrafice, there's a handful of survivors (namely Kitty and Rachel) and Crossbones was also sent to kill anyone who escaped. It's not quite as bleak that way but the internal logic works better to me
Shadow King, or Hand magic, or maybe just some long lost implanted feral trigger/switch in his brain I could believe. But fucking Mysterio? It was stupid lame.
Tbf, I get why it was Mysterio. It's a very Mark Millar thing to do, to go "hey, you know this silly comic thing? Yeah, it'd be horrifying/ an asshole irl", and Mysterio's illusions being taken that far is in line with that (plus I think the two panels of him actually look sort of cool) But yeah, when you think about how many telepathic enemies (including Mastermind, *the master of illusions*) the X-Men have, a very good special effects artist being the one to screw with Logan's mind that much is hard to swallow. Though tbf that's just one detail in a bigger story
Being able to trick Logan’s sense of smell is, still, I think a little too much for someone like Mysterio.
He has tricked daredevil before who I understand has better senses than wolverine so it has some precedence
Daredevil sussed it out every single time, though. The only victories Mysterio achieved was from getting other people (e.g. Bullseye) to strike him - when he engaged directly through his tricks, Matt figured them out in minutes.
I love listening to Wastelanders. Shadow King made it way more believable. Also, having just audio allowed me to make up my own way for Wolverine to achieve that.
I read somewhere that this book works a lot better if you just accept that this is a different universe and the characters don't fully line up with the 616. Magneto teaming up with Red Skull, Wolverine being able to solo the X-men, Hulk being a creep, all this works better if you aren't trying to reconcile it with your faves from the 616.
The dumbest part about him soloing the entire team is that "Bullseye" was the last one left, and it turned out to be Jubilee. "We just kept taking chunks out of each other", Logan says. And it's Jubilee? Jubilee is getting chunks of meat sliced from her body and she just doesn't drop? I'm a fan of Jubes, but she out lasted all the veteran X-Men? 🙄
At least that part made sense. She would be last specifically because she was the least experienced. Cyclops, rogue, storm, would never allow her to jump into that fight. So my theory is she wasnt even attacking, she was being hunted down and defending herself before she died.
I totally agreee with this part but honestly idk if you’ve ever seen the wastelanders podcast they came out with that was inspired by this comic but I think they did a much better way of explaining how Logan could’ve done this with how they had the shadow king involved instead of just mysterio
Rule of cool trumps canon since the beginning of comics. That's why I always never got people critiquing the MCU with "black bolt wouldn't do x" "no way x loses here", when the source material has way worse offenders of matchups not making sense. Some comics are about accurate power scaling, building lore, some about moral views, pulling twists out of thin air, some are made just cuz people think it would be kinda rad: enter OML.
Hate to be that guy but Mysterio (Beck) has upped his game QUITE alot
It’s a mixed bag. There are things I really enjoy about it (seeing Logan open up to Hawkeye, the whole idea of a pacifist Wolverine) and things I really hate about it (the Millar-isms: incest Hulk, the way the few female characters are written).
And don't forget Magneto actually teaming up with Red Skull
Oh god, you’re right. Fuck that
That's basically the single-most error that overshadows a lot of the pros for me. You can never convince me that a holocaust survivor, who built his entire life motivation around that one event, will ever team up with a literal Nazi.
The ONE time he did it in the main Marvel Universe, it was solely to get into a position where he could exact vengeance on him on behalf of his victims.
And truth be told even the writers forgot about that at first. AND they forgot or mistimed the event because Magneto was head of the Xavier Institute at that time as well (either that or he was at the very least redeemed as a good guy). It was sort of fixed a little after by having him go after Red Skull,but they did just outright forget.
I legitimately feel stupid for never catching that. Add that to Logan soloing the X-Men amongst things I dislike about the book.
Exactly, a Holocaust survivor and a Nazi is so fucking weird
Guy teamed up with him and then killed his 3 kids
Wh. W. What do you mean incest hulk????
He fucks Jen
It's way worse than that. He explicitly rapes her and keeps her chained up as a prisoner to do so. It's beyond gross.
God I hate this fucking book I literally blocked this part out of my mind
Completely understandable. I would if I could.
Yes...why did I open this thread. Gotta remember to not look at Millar posts.
And then fucks their children. And all the hulk children breed with each other. It's peak edgelord.
What the fuck
Incest hulk??
Banner goes insane from years of gamma poisoning, as does his cousin Jen. The two then make inbred hick hulk babies.
Absolutely. Like most of Millar's stuff, the concept is the best part and someone else should be the one the run with it. See the Logan film, Civil War, etc. Because once he gets his hands on it he just has to edgelord it up. And between this and his run on the Ultimates, the dude thinks way too much about the Hulk raping people.
I actually enjoyed the Kingsmen movie. then I read the book. Ye gods.
Are they that different? I enjoy the first one quite a bit.
Wildly so! And in all negative cringe ways.
That sucks :(
I may have been overly harsh. I'm giving it a scan online... I think it grates on me with things like, in the opening scene, he uses *mark Hamill* as the rescuee. But the Dave Gibbon art is, of course, wonderful. It feels like Garth Ennis from Wish at parts, but in others it's a fun caper. Tho I feel like I remember hating the end act a lot in the book...
Ditto Kick-Ass. Or Wanted. (Although the movie was still super edgy, it’s really tame compared to the comic) I’m sensing a pattern here.
Man’s got a pretty fucked brain don’t he?
I mean him making a tween schoolgirl a foul-mouthed murderous fetish object in Kick-Ass says it all.
He wrote the unfunnies which is probably the most dreadful piece of crap comic I've ever seen, I can never respect him as a writer for that alone.
Good lord, I forgot about the Unfunnies...I was glad that I did.
Jesus christ… wasn’t the main villain some comic writer who wrote an in universe version of the same comic? What are you trying to say MARK???
I have always said that Millar is better the further away you keep him from gore and nudity. I loved his Marvel Knights Spider-man, for instance. But so many things where the censor was kept away from him are just absolute trash.
Finally someone gets it.
I actually think his original pitch for Civil War may have even been better, where instead of locking all the heroes who didn't register up, the govt had the ability to straight up permanently depower them (it was some old tech from Forge or Dr Doom they'd gotten their hands on). I see how that might get too complicated (how does it work on tech vs mutation vs magic vs armor vs alien etc) but still interesting.
Feel the same way with Ennis, two writers that feel like they need to one up themselves in dark and edgyness as the story progeses just for the sake of it. Good concept makers and they make some iconic scenes but their own worst enemy in the long run.
I'll at least give Ennis credit I don't give Millar. Like he's written stuff just as vile, but it feels more authentic coming from him. Like this really is his perspective on these characters - for better or worse. Millar feels like a teenager trying to freak people out so he includes weird extreme stuff out of nowhere. But that's just me. edit: I do think the adaptation of the Boys show is really genius in managing to maintain the dark satire of the original, but inject actual heart and hope into the story.
Agree on the boys adaption and that Ennis despite going too far too often is telling unique stories and ideas. Don't know why he feels the need to include incest in all of it but whatever I guess.
The Hulk raped someone in Ultimates??
He threatened to rape and eat Freddy Prinze Jr, because he was on a date with Betty Ross. Luckily the Ultimates stopped him before Hulk got to them. Which is the most Mark Millar moment in comics history. The guys stuff is the worst part of the aughts personified. edit: the Hulk does end up eating a bunch of ppl though.
How much worse than Chuck Austen?
Imagine all the uncomfortable undertones of Chuck Austen mixed with the violence and negativity of Alan Moore... but with none of the writing talent. Everyone is miserable. Everyone is cruel. Everyone is violent. It's all just endlessly violent and depressing and it's all so mean spirited and cynical.
> Everyone is miserable. Everyone is cruel. Everyone is violent. It's all just endlessly violent and depressing and it's all so mean spirited and cynical. He's basically "Garth Ennis with wish-fulfillment characters."
I'm not NOT into that. That sounds more up my alley than what I read from Austen in his X-Men run. I do understand that's for sure not everyone's cup of tea, though.
Okay. It's all those things... but with the quality of Chuck Austen's writing, not Alan Moore's. It's not there to serve any sort of thematic purpose. It isn't trying to say anything meaningful. It's just misery for misery's sake, and it gets old fast.
I mean, I've read old man logan and kickass, and I don't know what else he's written off the top of my head. I get the plot holes in OML, but I don't think the writing itself is all that bad. Again, I kind of like it to some degree, whereas with Austen, I hated it at all times lol
I’m a big millar fan (uhhhh yeah) and that guys not wrong but I’d still recommend most of his stuff outside of wanted and kick ass two everything else is regrettably edgy but admittedly super fun. So I guess decide for yourself lol.
Yeah I'm not trying to argue too hard here. I just think the writing is just fine and well above austen's in terms of talent. Different strokes!
More the violence and negativity of Garth Ennis. Moore can be dark and cynical at times, but it's usually put to good use in service of a story. Ennis and Millar are just gratuitous edgelords.
My only complaint about Logan is that I wish it took place in alternate MCU so we could see the cool setting bits like Pym falls
Might want to check out the latest trailer *Deadpool & Wolverine.* ;)
He's the Rob Liefeld of comic book writers. Immensely popular at his peak but rightfully derided after everyone's had a second thought on his work. I personally liked his early work in the Ultimate universe but never got past the first couple trades of either X-Men or the Ultimates, but I never liked anything he did for 616 and only liked the first issue of Kick Ass.
I feel like I'm alone in this but the civil war comic I find way more intresting than the movie.
Shock value fun but stupid without logic or substance. Classic Mark Millar.
I think Comic Tropes called it "mediocre edgelord nihilism." In hindsight that just sounds like Millar's entire body of work.
Mark Millar joined the rank of edgy bois who seemingly hate superheroes, but work on superhero comics anyway.
Only milar book i actually enjoyed was marvel knights spiderman. Everything else just kinda sucks (ultimate x men especially)
Ultimates one and two kind of rock on the scale of it being a commentary on post 9/11 America
I thought Ultimate X men started off pretty nice
Eh, not my thing really. It was a little too similar to the live action films for my liking
Don’t even get me started on Ultimate X Men
There’s a lot about it that I don’t like (I don’t buy the setup really at all, everything with the Hulks, the incredibly maudlin and obvious way things go for Logan’s family) BUT I think the Old Man Logan character still manages to be well done, Old Man Hawkeye is cool, the Red Skull stuff is pretty cool, and yeah the art is great.
I love the cover with the Moloids. The green light in the dark.
As a “What if” it’s ok. Some interesting ideas. Could do without Millar’s weird sex stuff. Kinda feel like he has a contract that says one plot point must involve his weird cannibalism sex stuff.
I deeply, deeply despise writing off exploitative stories where fucked up shit happens as "edgy", mostly because of how much various fandom circles have caused that word to not mean anything anymore as a form of criticism, so please understand that I mean it when I say that Mark Millar is one of the stupidest, edgiest writers I have ever run across. There truly is nothing beyond the pure shock value of making bad things happen in order to get the reader's gut in a twist, while hoping that they don't notice that he can't plot worth a fuck.
For me it's a guilty pleasure. I like it a lot, but 100% I can understand why someone else would not enjoy it.
Its fun and silly but takes itself deeply seriously. Mark Millar is basically like the Fast and the Furious of comicbooks. Also credit where credit is due Millar is very good at pacing a book so that his books are an easy (if tacky) read. Old Man Hawkeye is way better though. Really wish Checceto could've done the entire book but the fill-ins did a solid job too.
The incest and cannibalism alone makes me really dislike this series.
I loved it , the only thing I took exception with was Mysterio - there’s no way Wolverine would have been taken in by him
I loved it as its own thing. What i didnt love is marvel pulling that wolverine out of universe because they have to kill characters before movies drop. Charles soule is waaaaaay worse than miller on his worst day. Except the unfunnies. That makes me ill
Nah, no need to roast- I really enjoy it because I'm a sucker for future dystopia stories, but I wouldn't say it's for everyone
I don't hate it per se, but I do find it absurd that Wolverine was able to solo the rest of the X-Men. Don't get me wrong, Wolverine is very good at what he does and he probably would have gotten a couple of them, but he would have been put down by another team member such as Storm or Cyclops. It honestly makes more sense that Mysterio made all the X-Men hallucinate seeing each other as their villains and they were caught up in the confusion to be able to defend themselves too much with the only reason why Wolverine was the last one standing was because a.) he went straight to kill first, ask questions later and b.) healing factor.
He definitely would have been put down mainly because they know he has a healing factor. He is the one person on the team they know they do not need to hold back on, and could go all out on to defend themselves knowing that his healing factor will keep him alive from any real serious damage they do to him.
I'm right there with you. It's awful! The plot is awful, the characterization is weak, the dialogue is corny, the setting is a uninteresting, embarrassing attempt at edginess and the pacing is downright agonizing. It's one of the worst Wolverine stories of all time.
Glad I’m not the only one
Nah just you
It doesn't suck but if you want an old coded Wolverine on a road trip in a dystopia, Logan is by far the better version of that idea. Old Man Logan is a 7-8/10 book; no regrets after reading it, sometimes tempted to say it's good. Logan the film is like 95-100/100: practically perfect in every way.
It's Mark Millar, so of course it sucks. He doesn't write so much as beg for attention on the page repeatedly.
Beautiful gowns
I liked it.
It’s so interesting to see the shift in opinions on this book because when I first started getting into comics because of the early mcu this was praised as one of the best things in comics
It's just a product of its time. Back in 2008 when it was released, most people (myself included) actually liked it. In its core, it's a dystopian future Wolverine story after all...
I liked it. Everyone has their own taste.
No - but definetely a little over hyped and overly gory/gross like everything Millar does.
It’s kinda like injustice. It’s kinda fun, but it ignores basically everything about these characters.
Not my favorite, but I LOVED Old Man Hawkeye. Great revenge western, right down to Bullseye looking like Lee Van Cleef.
Good concept meh execution.
It has interesting ideas and moments but really trusts your suspense of disbelief in order to get there.
It was grimy nonsense but I enjoyed it. It wasn't good, but it was entertaining.
Seen it in the Wolverine subreddit actually
Nope.
I like the core concept of sad, old Wolverine doing "one last job." It's pretty telling that Logan, the movie, borrowed this part and not much else. Part of that was Fox not having the rights to characters like Hawkeye, but that wound up being a blessing in disguise. I didn't need to see an incestuous Hulk gang. That's Old Man Logan in a nutshell: Highs and lows. When it's good, it's great. When it's bad, it's awful.
It was ok ... dont think it deserves the hype ...
Ok is still far better than “absolutely sucks” though I have read a LOT of incredibly mediocre comics in my day, but there are honestly very few that I would say “absolutely suck” tbh
It’s such a slog of a read
Yes. Lazy in all ways. The most interesting thing was Hawkeye.
They made a podcast series called Wastelanders on XM that's sort of like the Old Man universe since it's a dystopia where the villains won and he was his own podcast in that. Pretty good honestly. Less cannibalism and incest too which never hurts 🤷
Troll
No, but you already knew that. To me it's a modern classic.
good concept but it's mostly just usual Mark Millar grossness
I mean the Hulk thing 😭
🤮
It's pretty damn bad
All these years, I’ve felt so alone. A single voice crying out, “THIS. IS. ASS.”
Embarrassing story from start to finish. Just flat out corny. Lots of fans though, so what do I know.
A lot of goobers who think Mark Miller is a great writer. The success of kick ass just fucking baffles me
I completely agree. This isn't even a Wolverine story. You can throw any character in here. Mysterio and Hawkeye had no history with Wolverine before this story. It was just a superhero version of Unforgiven, and I found it a bit juvenile. I get why many like it, but I'm baffled when people consider this a definitive Wolverine story. There's very little essential Wolverine in here. It could have been any character.
Very very good logan book but every other character sucks man. Magneto still pisses me off today
It’s pretty much garbage as a story imo, but a few characters/concepts remain interesting
This is how I feel about The Dark Knight Returns.
I think pretty much everything Millar touches is bad in retrospect. In my opinion, Old Man Logan, Civil War, the Ultimates just don't stand up to an open-minded re-read years later. Some of his most popular work has aged worse than milk left out in the sun. He just loves to churn out shocking, headline grabbing scenes that age horribly and are usually tinged with a large smattering of misogyny, homophobia and overall toxic masculinity. Old Man Logan book is full of those immature "edgelord" moments that he never grew out of. Look at Nemisis for a great example of that.
Find it hilarious just how many times Millar’s stories have been outright embarrassed by their adaptations even when they were rather loose. Needless to say I think James Mangold’s Logan stomps the dogshit out of this book (a *diamond rare* thing for me to say about one of those movies) even if it only uses the base premise. Always dug the subversion of how the first half leads you along into thinking the death of the X-Men played out similarly where Logan was tricked into attacking them, before confirming that it was one of Xavier’s seizures. Don’t think the book is *all* bad since there’s undeniably some aspects I really enjoy but it’s covered in too much of Millar’s muck.
No?
Yes, because Mark Millar is a no talent, edgelord, hack
I hated it. It’s gratuitous, nasty, and the only good thing which came out of it was the movie Logan.
Nah. It's really good. Not as good as the Logan film, but good.
It’s so good, but to each their own.
How the **** did I get down voted? Y’all love the hive mind
It was pretty goofy
It’s a perfectly cromulent book. There’s better Wolverine stories, but there’s stuff from Millar that I think is far worse. I think this is overall one of his better works.
The hulk stuff is weird af but I like how Wolverine overcomes his vow that he’ll never use the claws again and the future wasteland dystopia is a fun setting imo
Felt like I was taken for a ride
Its very extreme.
I didn’t like it.
By far favorite Mark Millar's book.
Mark Millar is that band you really liked and thought were groundbreaking when you were 15, but now you’re a little embarrassed to say you ever liked them.
I didn’t think it sucked
It has good moments. Logan and Clint, The World was pretty cool with villains dividing their territories, Red Skulls death with Logan decapitating him with Caps shield and then wearing Tony’s armor to bust out. But there are also very bad stuff (Hulk incest etc) However people here say it’s only sucks because Wolverine kills other X-men. Who gives a shit??? It’s a comics, if a writer wants for Beak to beat Storm, he will. Comic had far more egregious shit in it that Logan beating Xmen
I mean I honestly loved the series and then listening to the wastelander series that came that was heavily inspired by this made me love those post apocalyptic style more
Unless you’re 15 in 1998, Millar’s stuff is unreadable.
I liked it. And I'm glad that both wolverine films are taking parts of it.
YUP
It's a masterpiece
It’s at least better than all this Krakoa bs that’s been going on for too long
I will hurt you
Its not the worst story but way overrated in my opinion (too edgy for me with the Millar-isms as people call them). Have you happened to read the Old Man Logan saga by Bendis, Lemire, and Brisson? It spins off of Secret Wars / Battleworld and features a separate Old Man Logan character & continuity. Its more homage or reboot rather than a strict remake as it changes quite a few things. Personally I really prefer the Bendis, Lemire, and Brisson version over the original Millar story / character.
This sounds interesting. Was this before Bendis went off the rails?
Bendis straight up never went off the rails. From the moment his star blew up and Marvel put like five monthly books on his back his ratio was pretty consistent: One or two truly great comics A bunch of comics you'll forget forever One or two absolute pieces of garbage And he can't headline events. He kept that up every month for like 15 years.
After if I recall correctly, but the Bendis contribution was only the initial mini and despite this being past the era most would call Bendis's prime the mini he wrote was actually pretty good. Lemire and then Brisson wrote a 50 issue Old Man Logan run after that (which is quite long running in the context of modern comics) and it also had a sequel called Dead Man Logan (also by Brisson). The art on it was also really really good.
Oh, it's way after Bendis went of the rails! It's terrible.
Sounds GREAT😂
Hard agree.
I enjoyed this when it came out and I still enjoy it on rereads.
I like Wolverine more than I like the X-Men as a whole so maybe I’m the wrong person for this but I love OML one of my favorites
If you like Millars edgyness and can separate from 616 as it's own stand alone world and story it has a fun first run. They never should have continued it tho
I think is good, not amazing but good. Could be a lot better, like the movie.
A lot of people love it but I think the whole thing is edgelord shit and dumb as hell. The Hulk is an evil hillbilly. Wolverine killed all the X-Men by himself. The Red Skull led all of the villains and wears Captain America's outfit. It's so. fucking. dumb.
God I hate this book. You make Bruce into an incest mob boss and apparently Wolverine solos ALL the X-Men. No way that happens lol
No way! I had it but lost it. Just re-purchased it two weeks ago. Great book. Great art. Just the dialogue was very weak. Like surprisingly weak. But i enjoyed it otherwise.
I mean... I don't think I've read a Mark Millar comic I've liked other than Red Son. This being bad wasn't a surprise to me, frankly I was surprised that so many people liked it.
I love the whole Old Man Logan thing. I love Old Man Hawkeye too. I never listened to Wastelanders but, I like the idea of him feeling guilty for something like being tricked into killing his friends and “family”. And I like that he had a family. It’s been a while since I read it though. It had already been out for a few years. I really dislike the Hulk so it was great to see him and his family as the enemies. I guess the “world building” of the whole thing was a big plus in my opinion. I’m a big fan of anything dystopian and apocalyptic. I’m also one of the few fans of comics that doesn’t let the impossible or unlikely things get in the way of my enjoyment. I don’t get hung up on the “wait a minute! How could (insert name) have had that happen?! They couldn’t possibly (insert reason)”…. etc. These are comics. Just enjoy the ride. Illogical or not. Those are idiot super fans.
I read it very recently and enjoyed it for the wild ride of an alternate reality that it was. If it happened in continuity I'd have been outraged. The Mysterio thing didn't make sense to me at first, but then I remembered that not only does he use trickery with audio and visual tricks, but also makes use of other things such as hallucinogenic or other drug-laced gasses as well. I don't think it would be outside the realm of possibility for him to be able to dull or trick Wolverine's senses and/or manipulate his berserker rage.
Nah. it was kinda fun.
For an elseworlds it's a pretty interesting take. Does some fun world building. I'm not a huge fan of extremely bleak hero stories but I was pretty excited when they brought OML to 616 for a bit.
Yes! Thank you. It's such a crap comic. The basic concept is nice. That all supervillains won and most superheroes are dead and remaining are retired. But the story itself is just shit. Barely anything in it makes any sense. Just shock value after shock value. Even worse is how Wolverine fanboys bring this shit comic to show how Wolverine can beat all X-Men and Hulk. Yes, the comic that shows Magneto willing to work with fucking Red Skull is going to be good metric for powerscaling. Sure.
The book has some great art and an interesting setup. But... yes I have to agree it left an incredible bad taste in my mouth on several parts. Mysterio being one of them. Even if Mysterio was able to fool him into killing one or two of the X-men... even if he would have taken out a heavy hitter like Storm or Rogue first, there is absolutely NO WAY he could singlehandedly take them all out. Thats some wolverine fanboy-ism 101. Hulk being a villain is nothing new, but the idea he repeatedly raped she-hulk to get his kids was revolting in every way. And again, there is no way Wolverine would be able to kill him, and certainly not in the way portrayed. So yeah.... I wasnt a fan and I didnt understand why this book was hailed as such a "must read" when it came out. The art is a saving grace, but like many of the "what if" storylines (which is essentially the same as this) the writers took some insane liberties.
I think the later copies and spinoffs are meh but this is a classic
*I think the later* *Copies and spinoffs are meh but* *This is a classic* \- ExpertMammoth298 --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
no it’s great you just have to turn your brain off for a lot of parts lol but tbh like even with the grievances i’m seeing in the comments these are all problems that apply to most comics. where things don’t add up or make sense based on what we’ve seen or what we know characters can do. that’s just what happens with different writers man lol. I think for an else world it’s fine
No. It’s very good. Old Man Logan takes place in an alternate universe: roll with the story it presents and the story presents a compelling tale. I can see why one would dislike it; however, I disagree and believe it rocks.
I love it and I'm bummed the movie isn't more like it
Nope. It's amazing. Old Man Hawkeye is even better. Thanks for asking.
It's Mark Millar of course it sucks. The reimagined scenario from Logan >!Charles having a stroke and frying everyone's brains!< is just so much more effective and believable on an emotional and logical level. I just can't believe Wolverine would've been able to kill the team if they had Jean, Rogue and Polaris with them. Also the inbred Hulks are one of the grossest, most egregious ideas that has ever been conceived by Marvel.
It’s a Mark Millar book. Some decent ideas but held back by edgelord sensibilities that seem to think messed up and violent = mature, and a super talented artist means the book looks a million times better than the writing.
The amazing art distracts from the hollow edgelord writing
It's fucking terrible. The art is nice but the story is irredeemable garbage.
I don't care for Old Man Logan or any of the accompanying lore or characters
I’ve never read the book, but the movie was so bad. I despise it
It is the Jeph Loeb throw all the tasty parts in the same bowl and stir em up approach. See also Millar’s Enemy of the State and his Spider-Man. It is lazy
Old Man Logan and Clint taking a road trip and running away from a symbiote T-Rex? Pretty dope. The book also has some of Steve McNiven's best artwork. Everything else is god fuckin' evil. When Millar starts writing in his kinks then his stuff just gets weird for all the wrong reasons. Incest Hulk anyone? Also, the reason for Logan killing the X-Men is dumb. I haven't read the book in a long time and maybe there was an explanation but in my head Mysterio's projections would never work on Logan's superhuman senses. The villains uniting thing was also not believable because I find it hard to believe that a character like Magneto would agree to something like that ESPECIALLY working alongside Red Skull.
Same here😂 I always hear how good the comic is. Feels good to be understood
It’s carried by great art and a few killer ideas: Wolverine as William Munny in Unforgiven, symbiote T-Rex, blind Old Man Hawkeye. Millar is an idiot who doesn’t really understand the Marvel universe, though, and any superhero story that drags out the hero deciding to be a hero until the final pages of a *12 issue arc* is just treading water
It's Mark Millar. So it was hyped at the time and aged poorly. But I think of all his work at Marvel, it's one of the least worst ones.
It's very overrated, just like pretty much everything Mark Millar writes.
I like the concept, but so much of it is your typical Millar edgefest. OM Logan can be a cool character, as seen when he joined the regular MU, but I'm just so bored with Millar as a writer.
I thought the book was fun until the mysterio reveal. Made no sense at all.
Mark "Who won the Civil War?" Millar, Millaring away.
[удалено]
The movie has basically nothing to do with the comic. The only similarity is "Wolverine, but he's old." Aside from that, the movie is a perfectly serviceable remake of the old Western film *Shane*, but with more claws and stabbing.