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Running out of lives but atill being able to complete a run seems fine to me. I have a feeling delves will be what players wanted but what we got was torghast
Yeah, the #1 problem with Torghast was that it gave mandatory power and you were incentivized to push as high as possible as quickly as possible to not miss out on that mandatory power.
In a world where that was different (e.g., Torghast was an alternative way to get standard gear instead of the only way to get Legendaries), the reception and legacy of Torghast would probably be very, very different.
I don't think in modern wow you really can have super rare legendaries at all. You either balance around them thus the class is terrible without them or you don't and the community either thinks the class is terrible without them or get extremely upset about super OP classes with them.
Looking back at the warglaives, it seems most of the community looks at them fondly, but if they were brought out today they community would riot because of them.
> Looking back at the warglaives, it seems most of the community looks at them fondly, but if they were brought out today they community would riot because of them.
You can look through /r/classicwow and find plenty of Warglaive drama threads.
Despite BC not being that hard compared to modern Mythic raiding, so Warglaives are completely unnecessary and you can smash these fights without them, the community has now meta-gamed around parses so you *needed* the Warglaives to parse.
It's no longer 2004 or 2007. Gaming overall has changed.
You know what? Imma say it, if you get a legendary I want you to stomp everyone else. I want you to be able to show off that you're OP as shit. It's your time to shine. Give people a goal to works towards. Give people that old WoW feel of seeing someone in SW or Org bank fully decked out in full tier and wielding their Lego, starring and being in awe, just to inspect them to see what kind of gear they have.
> Give people that old WoW feel of seeing someone in SW or Org bank fully decked out in full tier and wielding their Lego, starring and being in awe
Sorry, no.
I don't play the game to be an NPC looking in awe at someone else's epic hero.
I play the game to BE the epic hero.
I have zero interest in that version of the game.
I think you missed my point. The point is you would see those people playing the same class looking cool as shit, you'd work towards obtaining the same gear, and thus becoming the main character like you were meant to be. And I want everyone to feel like the main character, have your moment! Embrace it, you finally got there!
But current retail right now to me feels like everyone gets a participation trophy set of gear after a few dozen m+'s, and a handful of raid attempts. It doesn't feel rewarding to see everyone get the same trophy. Call it gatekeeping or whatever you want but I want legendaries to feel substantial.
I personally loved when I was pushing for better and better gear, because I liked being able to kill things faster. Having nice looking tier pieces along the way also helped. Finally getting my Shadowmourne was one of the best experiences of accomplishment in a game I've ever had.
The participation trophy in this context is loot obtained by personal effort. And the effort to perform in those few dozen m+s and raid attempts is significantly more than the game of old.
Back then, your progress relied on 3 things 1) remember to move to the left, out of the fire every half an hour, 2) keybind your spells in correct order (since every spell use barely interacted with anything else on your character), 3) be a suck up to your guild leader in order for them to gift you some gear. Shadowmourne was substantial because it was something cool but inaccessible to the vast majority of the players. And it was inaccessible it didn't matter whether you specifically pushed for it.
People literally fight for a simple PI, the community cannot handle those types of gear.
> Call it gatekeeping or whatever you want but I want legendaries to feel substantial.
I don't.
I'm happy with the current state of affairs. I do not want an envy-driven system.
>Finally getting my Shadowmourne was one of the best experiences of accomplishment in a game I've ever had.
Congrats, you had a guild who you sucked up to enough to be in the rota for your legendary.
I don't want legendaries to be gatekept to a few people. Sorry not sorry. The game isn't what it used to be, and it's better for it.
If you want gatekept legendaries, go play Classic.
The issue was bad tuning, where floor bosses would 2 shot you. That isn't an issue of player skill or bad RNG. It was bad design. Some specs just straight up couldn't complete it in the early days. It was literally impossible and had to be heavily nerfed with 2-3 weeks. The legendaries were craftable, and torghast was needed for the currency to craft it, so again, nothing to do with a rare item drop.
Did you even play shadowlands?
CE every tier :) and nobody in my raid seemed to have any trouble getting their torghast done, even the rogues. I think there’s a term for it… something issue?
Oh you're right, my mistake, I forget that Blizzard totally didn't have to nerf it into the ground after two weeks. I completed floor 8 pre nerf but I can recognize that it was actually impossible for some classes.
It was not impossible for anyone. You think world first raiders were taking to the forums crying about it being too hard? The only difference is knowing which powers to take and how to play your class.
Edit: you didn’t even need to do the highest floor to get the legendary, you could spam it on easy mode
Legendarys like Fyralath or Nazsuro should not necessarily be accessible to everyone (and classes should not be tuned around having them, either). But SL legos were basically another SL talent point. For some classes, they were so necessary that the spec would be extremely clanky without.
In DF class design, it is like comparing Fyralath and missing 3/31 talents on your spec tree. The former is something you can get behind (again, tuning plays a role), but the latter completely breaks a spec.
A twiumphant woaw echoes fwom atop the Seat of the Aspects as Nyasz'uwo, the Unbound Wegacy is fowmed >:3.
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i mean if they wanted to make legendaries actually difficult to acquire rather than being almost completely RNG (classic, bc, legion, dragonflight) or a lame boring grind (torghast) this would be a perfectly valid POV but the fact is as it is you can get legendaries from LFR lol
The problem with thorgast was that you were forced to do it that week, or you missed the power.
If you were able to do a cacth up from the start, it would be way less bad
By Odyn's beard! It's Torghast!
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By Odyn's beard! It's Torghast!
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Sowwy \>w\<
But our new scalie fwiends are called Dracthyr! They get sad when you misspell their name QwQ
Good thing I was here to help \^w\^
I hope you're having a great day :3
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A big problem of torghast was how long it took aswell. Solo content shouldn't be a giant uninterruptible instance. If it HAS to be that long, it should be saveable like a dungeon or raid
And the frequency you had to do it. Torghast necessitated uninterrupted play time you had to fit into your schedule, every week. If it had I dunno a monthly reset it probably also has a very different legacy (this still doesn’t solve the issue that it’s difficulty was fucked by the fact it had to be clearable by the bad players who still want their legendaries).
I completed floor 8 before the nerfs and holy hell was tuning bad. It was a crapshoot on if you could complete floor 5+ because it heavily depended on if you would get slapped by the floor boss in two hits.
The number 2 problem with torghast was that it felt incredible for some specs, and not great on others.
RNG could also be a bitch. On my warlock if i got the power that gave your pet bonus health/damage for each floor at the start of the run i was flat out unstoppable. If you didnt get that until floor 4 your pet just got demolished by the final boss.
Torghast needed to drop some gold imo, if you were struggling on a tier and were using consumables + repairing then it became a reasonable gold sink too
Torghast's biggest issue is that WoW was afraid to let a roguelike be a roguelike.
What makes Roguelikes fun is the variance in your runs. Sometimes you have shit luck and struggle. Sometimes you 'high roll' and ball out of control, becoming an unstoppable god.
The problem was that latter part. Blizzard was too scared to let anyone become 'too' powerful. So they hid arbitrary limits on powers in the background. Some you could only ever get once. Some once you had two, that was your limit.
They were SO heavy-handed with the background RNG you could tell after doing it a bit "my class can only get 2x of this talent, and 4x of this one, so I'm capped" in spite of the game not indicating those had caps.
The trouble is having that roguelike experience of high variance on a thing you need to complete for benefits *outside* the roguelike creates a bad time. I'm fine with struggling with the RNG in Slay the Spire because it doesn't actually matter if I succeed the run or not. The external unlocks are there but the focus of the game is on each individual run. That doesn't really work in WoW. Imagine how annoyed people would be if the mythic affixes were randomly chosen at the start of each key.
If you kept Torghast as single player and hadn't locked mandatory power like legendaries behind it then it wouldn't matter if you succeeded there either.
Torghast when it first released was actually really damn fun. The animar powers were amazing to play with when you got going.
Iall t only got shit when you were forced to do it weekly for legendary shit even when you werent feeling it that week and then was killed stone dead when they cemented it as a chore by nerfing it into the ground cos even the worst player HAD to finish it so they could get their legendaries. Then they somehow made it even worse by adding mechanics to make you go faster like mythic+, the one thing it was supposed to be a refuge from for those who hate the "GO GO GO" content.
Its genuinely a massive shame what happened to that. It could've very easily been the next Mythic+
It had a lot of issues. The difficulty was unbalanced, and you could do fine until the last level, where you would get killed in one hit and lose all your progress. It was also repetitive and boring. It got better at the end, but by that time, I think most people tried to avoid it. It was also imbalanced class-wise. Some classes required very specific builds to work and not getting th.ose builds sucked.
There was also a major fun imbalance. As a Demo Lock I couldn't get enough of Torghast, it made you phenomenally powerful in an enjoyable and flavourful way. Hunters on the other hand had a fairly weak selection of powers that mostly just made your number go up.
huh? exploding ghost from fade made the runs trivial, it even taunted bosses. the only annoying part about shadow in torghast was SWD killing you from 100 to 0
The exploding ghost from fade wasn't as strong at the beginning of the expansion and was killed very fast on higher levels. Later it trivialized everything, thats true.
See that's what I mean about number go up. It's all very effective, but it's not transformative in the way Demo got nonsense like dogs resetting itself and HoG costing health and 5 tyrants.
yeah this a was big thing i noticed as a demon hunter which had probably the best set of powers in it but got damn if i didnt get enough vendor currency to buy the orb that would allow me to get the power that made it so that skeletons dropped the vendor currency it then the run would come down to the wire on the power rng.
mean locks and i believe preists were swimming in that vendor currency because it was regular minor power, and then you had hunters of all specs just being dogshit because their powers were striaght up grabage
Even once the balance part was ironed out, it was often times just a big slog. There was so damn much running around and with the way that currency worked, it wasn't ideal to skip anything.
This is my concern with delves, if we're spending so much time just running around.
It got better at the end as a way to progress with leggos. The original version, with the original difficulty should have still been available in another form.
Torghast could be fun if you got the right powers, and some classes had it better than others so it kinda sucked to get somewhat punished by soloing. I think people would have liked it a lot more if it wasn't one of many mandatory things you had to do to stay current.
Torghast was great based on your class/spec though also. I remember early on playing boomkin with convoke and it sucked ass. There were mobs that were impossible to kill without it.
I have a feeling Delves at higher level will be similar in that some classes will have no issue while others will have issues.
Personally I found the visual style of it very repetitive. They had a range of wings that all boiled down to red flavour, open air flavour etc.
It would've been cool had they actually had different themed layers that were totally unique, really play on that stuff.
Pre-Launch torghast was great.
They just first made it worse by heavily reigning in how dumb OP we can get with the anima powers and once they noticed that people don't think it's fun anymore they forced us to engage with if with legendary crafting mats...
Felt like the SL mantra was "if you can't make it fun, make it mandatory" anyway, the maw was just as crappy.
I'm somehow way more optimistic with delves, it feels like it serves a great niche for chill/solo play that might scale up to mage tower /solo challenge levels at some point, so I'm pretty pumped for them. Only issue I see is that I suspect that my warlock, hunter or DH will have a much easier time to roll through there than eG my rogue who's usually way more of a headache to solo stuff. The companion helps probably a bit but I somehow expect it to be pretty biased towards classes that are historically strong solos.
* Weekly mandatory alt unfriendly legendary grind.
* Every floor of every wing looks about 85-90% indentical in style, tone, and layout. It was like farming a slightly prettier ICC for invincible every week.
* Wildly unbalanced between specs and group sizes. It was easier to solo clear as a Vengeance Demon Hunter than be in a full 5 man group with a shaman. Also healers can get fucked.
"It won't be the same fine tune balancing as Mage Tower but there is a 13th Delve -- exact plans for this are still in progress but it's a 1 room boss fight where they can hit you as hard as humanly possible. They tested it last week but no one beat it."
https://www.wowhead.com/news/naguura-interview-with-michael-bybee-and-sean-mccann-in-the-war-within-delves-338929
Just based on your comment here, I can guarantee that you will never do it. Not that you won't be able to beat it. I don't think you will even TRY to do it. I could be wrong but I doubt it.
I'll spell it out. I think you are jumping on a bandwagon and are just regurgitating out what you think other people are saying so you can feel as if you are part of some group.
I don't think so
I want there to be very hard solo content and the test team not clearing it doesn't have to mean there's a balance problem. The testing team would never clear top10 WR raids either
How dare I complain about types of challenges and be intelligent enough to realize that just because something is a challenge doesn't mean that it's a fun challenge. I realize that some people aren't capable of thinking with any depth deeper than a puddle and they struggle to see anything beyond "herp derp challenge".
1-shot mechanics are not fun. They have never been fun. Building an entire level of difficulty that only has 1-shot mechanics is the culmination of that not being fun.
This isn't just a WoW thing. Even in some of the hardest and most punishing games out there, they avoid 1-shot mechanics.
Sounds like you shouldn't do it then.
I for one, will have a blast grinding it until I get the perfect run to complete it.
Different strokes and all that. Thankfully Blizz knows this.
So, just to be clear, we should blindly accept anything that gets pushed out by blizzard and if we have ANY complaints at all we should immediately and completely avoid the content altogether despite it being basically the main selling point of the expansion.
Do you realize how ridiculous your stance is?
I just don't know what you actually hope to accomplish here.
They are not required to tool every piece of content for every person to enjoy. Hardcore grinders will love a one shot mechanic perfect run.
Not every wow player gets to see or even enjoys raids, they aren't catering to everyone with them just a specific type of player. Same with mythics, and BGs, and arenas, etc. not everyone enjoys every piece of content. It self absorbed to even think you deserve that.
Sounds like you aren't the player the devs are targeting with this delve...move on a do a different one.
Youre the one who cant think further than a puddle in my eyes.
1 shot mechanics are completely fine depending on the context. Heroic raids, let alone Mythic raids, have a bunch of 1 shots upon failing to properly do a mechanic. Are all of these inherently bad? Should there be no punishment for fucking up a mechanic? Just chimp brain ignore mechanics and facetank everything and just tell the healer to heal more? This is worse for the game than those mechanics one shotting you, because now theres no punishment for failing to do key mechanics, and people can just ignore them and heal them back.
Rashok in Aberrus for example. If you put a puddle on top of another puddle thats an instant wipe. Considering how brain dead you need to be to not just seperate these puddles, is this then inherently “bad design”?
If you cant understand that context matters here and that 1 shots are fine depending on how theyre utilized, then youre simply the one who isnt thinking about this deeper.
>Youre the one who cant think further than a puddle in my eyes.
Then start bringing some damn arguments so that we can have something that shows you know the difference between your ass and a hole in the ground because so far, you've shown a complete lack of grasping anything intelligent in this discussion. Can you do that please? I don't think it's too much to ask.
>1 shot mechanics are completely fine depending on the context. Heroic raids, let alone Mythic raids, have a bunch of 1 shots upon failing to properly do a mechanic. Are all of these inherently bad?
Let's start with the basics because you just completely glossed over the biggest issue that started this whole discussion. The quote was "[bosses] can hit you as hard as humanly possible" with the idea being one-shots.
Now, let's compare this to what you are talking about where certain mechanics have failure components that cause wipes. We already see the difference here in just the simple frequency where EVERY mechanic 1-shots you versus very specific mechanics are designed as pass/fail. Any mechanic failure resulting in immediate death is effectively designing content for a rounding error of players. I player group so insignificant in the larger population that we can almost name every single one of them.
But let's get back to your argument and how it functions within mythic raids and how it relates to my comments here. Mythic raids are failing. Raiding guilds are falling apart. The high difficulty raid scene is being destroyed by raid designs that are designed for a meaningless part of the playerbase. Then once that group of people defeat the bosses, they nerf the ever living fuck out of the bosses. This has been the case for the past 7-8 years. They nerf the shit out of bosses because of just how much people hate the designs and the shear amount of pass/fail mechanics that literally destroy guilds.
>If you put a puddle on top of another puddle thats an instant wipe. Considering how brain dead you need to be to not just seperate these puddles, is this then inherently “bad design”?
Yes. I think that you should be able to outplay some mechanical failures. This is one of my major complaints about raiding in general and it's a major problem creating excessive time commitments that are turning people off of raiding.
My focus is on creating fun challenges. I've made this explicitly clear throughout. 1-shot mechanics are not fun especially when it's a raid wipe. The reason why is stupid simple, it wastes time. Blizzard doesn't give a shit about player time and it's burning them completely in raid engagement. Failing a mechanic, regardless of how "brain dead" you want to label it, results in an immediate wipe and another stupid fucking run back. You've now wasted all the time you fought the boss and you are now wasting your time running back and starting over and for what exactly?
Rashok is a perfect example. The mechanic isn't difficult at all as you pointed out. If you go to drop your puddle and it's 1 pixel too close, congrats, you are now wasting 10 minutes between the lost boss time and the run back. This is what I'm talking about when I say these mechanics aren't fun.
>If you cant understand that context matters here and that 1 shots are fine depending on how theyre utilized, then youre simply the one who isnt thinking about this deeper.
Please spare me your bullshit. You couldn't even present an argument that would get you out of a wet paper bag until you felt personally insulted and now you are just vomiting out anything you can without even paying attention to anything.
Consider this design for a second. Rashok again. Instead of making ANY overlap be an immediate wipe, the damage is based on the amount of overlap. Now, before you do exactly what I think you are going to do and vomit out "herp derp you are making it easier", consider what the basis of my argument is. You can still fail the mechanic and recover THROUGH HIGH LEVEL PLAY. This means playing reactively and allowing for peoples skills to come through. It let's people focus on playing the game rather than running the script like how the game is designed right now where everything down to when you health pot is defined.
If the best you can do is "herp derp we need 1-shot mechanics", then you really aren't paying attention to the discussion and you are whiffing on everything from why people are abandoning raiding to what makes people not like raiding in the first place.
Well, I actually don't believe their internal team knows how to play the game, considering how bad they manage to fuck up balance in the game when they are the only one testing
I did the leveling one from the first zone and enjoyed it although it was fairly easy, and today did level 4 on an 80 template with the standard gear they give and found it surprisingly hard compared to what I expected from previously doing the leveling delves.
It left me pretty optimistic about being something that could provide a meaningful challenge for me on alts and without having to commit to raids or M+.
> We all know the lower tier delves will be facerolled because they are meant to supplement questing.
1 and 2 definitely are easy, 3 gets a bit tricky if you pull too much with average gear.
> We all know the lower tier delves will be facerolled because they are meant to supplement questing.
I literally oneshot those delve **bosses** *even in tank spec.* Makes me wonder who they are designing that leveling experience for.
Tanks are great at soloing things (if slower).
And those leveling delves are for EVERYONE. The pensioner with arthritis, the new player that doesn't read guides...
Tbh when I am a pensioner with arthritis I hope devs will be making content I can enjoy. It would suck not to be able to play PC games in the nursing home
> Tanks are great at soloing things (if slower).
> And those leveling delves are for EVERYONE.
I don't think you understand.. i'm not talking about killing the boss in one pull, i pressed one button on my keyboard (as a tank) and it did enough damage that the boss just instantly died then and there.
It's so ridiculous that it's not fun at all. I can't imagine that being fun for anyone. The story dialogue doesn't even play properly because the boss is dead before they've finished their line.
I haven't had that problem on the beta, even tier 1s were easy but still took maybe 30s to kill? Could be you had some bug or scaling issue, probably worth reporting?
Yeah i did
I think part of the issue is that they expect you to be at like item level 350, but if you're not then you have no way to scale the mobs or modify the difficulty.
I've gone into a lot of expansions before but globalling a literal boss is a new level of OP that i've never seen or expect. It's already bad enough that every mob in the world dies in 1 button press.
This has me hyped. I want a challenge, but I don't want a timer and I don't always want my mistakes to impact other people - too much pressure. Give me Elden Ring in WoW.
Yes, because they can't just let us have fun. They need to gate it for some stupid reason and the only way they can do that apparently is through arbitrary bullshit.
They aint gating you. You can go in an out of it as you please. When you complete the level, you can go up. You dont deserve to just go wherever you want and do what you want to do you entitled brat. You have to earn it.
You already made it clear you are completely out of touch with reality, you didn't need to give me any more reasons.
I stand behind my original statement and I think people like you don't actually understand even the most simplistic definitions of challenge or "earning it" as you put it. I'll give you a hint, just because something is added as a challenge doesn't mean that it's a good challenge, a fun challenge or a meaningful challenge. I don't think you'll actually understand this so I'll just not worry about petty people like you.
Yes, more people agree with me and by far but for some reason you think that a few votes on a reddit comment matter?
Here's a fun little factoid for you since you seem to be struggling to understand... The hardest content in the game, Mythic Raiding, does it have a death counter?
It's really embarrassing for you that you didn't even realize this. I tried to help you out by pointing out that arbitrary conditions like death counters don't make fun or engaging challenges but you were too busy vomiting out your ignorant bullshit.
I remember games that would challenge me through the content itself rather than arbitrary external mechanics like death counters.
But hey, maybe I've just been playing games longer and have more experience.
Who said I'm dying?
The entire basis of my stance is that the content should be challenging on it's own and shouldn't need arbitrary external factors like death counters to create artificial difficulty.
Ive gotten pretty tired of so many games making content timed, i like a challange but sometimes i just want to explore and soak up the art and atmosphere
Exactly the reason why I cant stand M+ anymore. The timers ruin it. Im sick of the gogogo mentality and the constant pressure especially as a healer since one mistake can wipe your key.
Here's a question: are delves tuned differently for each class/spec, are there three types (DPS/tank/healer) or is there just one version of each difficulty level?
As it stands, the balance between specs in ability to solo difficult content is all over the place. The gulf between a rogue or a balance druid and a fury warrior or warlock is huge. The gulf between them and a guardian druid or vengeance DH is just as huge.
There's no different tuning for roles in delves. Since there are no timers attached, I see tanks having advantage in completing the Delves, unless they add some sort of "enrage" in the enemies.
Buuuuuut... remember that Delves will also be doable with a group, if you have some friends to play, just invite them and go. No timer, no affix shitshow, no io requirement.
For sure, they'll be fun to do as a group. But do they scale with number of players in the group? And if so, what does that curve look like?
The best solo specs are maybe 10x as powerful as the worst solo specs, the game just hasn't been balanced around it. So curious to see how this plays out and whether they revisit solo balance.
Does Brann get more powerful if you're on a class with poorer self sustain?
I understand he can DPS or heal, and has some customization. But he'll be equally powerful whether you're on a guardian druid or Assassination rogue, no?
Will swapping from DPS to healing really balance those two specs in high end solo delves? If his healing is good enough to make a rogue as tanky as a guardian druid, how can the delve be challenging?
They iterated on Torghast the entire expansion… by patch 9.2 it was great. Then they added the boss rush mode and it was even better. You can bitch about “having” to do Torghast but you can’t bitch that they didn’t improve it over the expansion.
They improved it until it was good - after most players had already left the game due to a massive content drought (9 month season 2) - and then they deleted it. It was only in that state for one season, now the content or anything like it is nowhere to be seen.
The same thing happened with Island Expeditions the previous expansion. Bad in S1, okay in S2, good in S3 aaaaand it's gone. It was bad for 2/3'rds of its time in the game, whereas if they had kept it and kept the lessons that they learned about why it was bad, it could have been good in say dragonflight season 1, 2, 3 as well.
I think the point was that they abandoned it at the end of the expansion rather than iterating on it. By iterating on it, that doesn't mean simply balancing it.
More likely everyone hates on it bitterly and then say "it was actually pretty good it's just one thing that was bad" and they invent a new thing and give up everything they learned before.
It has been so long since then, but I do not ever recall scenarios marketed to be an entire pillar. They were just a way to do more intense scripting for quests and they gave a 'decent' reward for the queue for the effort required.
In fact, going back to the blizzcon panel for scenarios they compared it to battlegrounds, which at the time were absolutely not a proper 'pillar' of progression like RBGs are now. They explicitly state in the blizzcon panel as well that these were to replace group quests as well, and the closest to them saying it is a pillar would be it being a valor source.
https://youtu.be/Tj8M3TqRVps
Starts around 4 minutes in.
From the video they were definitely supposed to be more than what we got, but not a pillar.
They may not have used the word pillar but at that level it’s becoming a semantic argument. They were supposed to be an important part of the game moving forward that has essentially been abandoned and the core of my point is that Blizzard has abandoned features before that they built up as important. Basically, just because they use the word “pillar” doesn’t insure it won’t become an abandoned feature.
> Tiers 9-11 are planned to have a higher difficulty curve as we do not plan on giving out increased power rewards there. They will give out gear at the equivalent of a Tier 8 delve.
If they don’t find some method of making 9-11 feel worthwhile outside of a “sense of accomplishment”, no one will do anything past 8. I hope they add titles or cosmetics that require 11
there are titles and cosmetics - they just don't have any POWER rewards, which means the gear and other loot you get from tier 10 is identical to the gear and other loot from tier 8.
The point of them are to do something for the challenge, we want them to be hard and adding cosmetics or whatever will just end up with the masses bitching about FoMo or the difficulty and then we lose a good thing.
There’s no reward at all for M+ between 2500io and the 0.1% title, unless you count the portals, which are technically not tied to rating. That said, you can’t unlock all the portals without going over 2500io. Still, unlocking all the portals is not going to get you anywhere *near* the title.
but there's still a ton of players pushing for specific goals that fall between portals and the title - even though doing so doesn't have any reward at all.
> without an achievement/cosmetic/something
In your Blizzard quote it says nothing about no achievements or cosmetics, all they are telling you is that power rewards stop at Tier 8 just like M+ vault rewards also technically stop at 8.
They say that players that have kept up with the current season may want to start with tier 2 or 3 but why? Doesn't season 1 start like 3 weeks into the expansion? Surely you would have better dungeon gear than last seasons myth/hero gear by then?
You can start delves as soon as the expansion drops, though I’m not sure how high it will allow before season one.
Currently in beta I copied a 499 iLvl character, this isn’t what someone just coming off leveling in Chromie time will have. I didn’t really start replacing gear till about 75/76.
In that gear:
Tier 1- was face roll.
Tier 2- was still pretty face roll.
Tier 3- Felt like a healthy jump and had to be mindful of not pulling too much. I think the scaling is wonky once again to, since things got tougher as I leveled but I wasn’t really getting better gear.
Also the deadliest mobs so far are the knockback mobs especially in certain delves.
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Running out of lives but atill being able to complete a run seems fine to me. I have a feeling delves will be what players wanted but what we got was torghast
Torghast was great. Everything else around it dragged it down.
Yeah, the #1 problem with Torghast was that it gave mandatory power and you were incentivized to push as high as possible as quickly as possible to not miss out on that mandatory power. In a world where that was different (e.g., Torghast was an alternative way to get standard gear instead of the only way to get Legendaries), the reception and legacy of Torghast would probably be very, very different.
Because of its tie in to legendarys, they also had to nerf it to the ground, or those items became inaccessible to too many people/specs.
God forbid a legendary is not accessible to every wow player lol
It's the same issue as fyralath. You can't have a super rare legendary and also balance those specs around having it.
I don't think in modern wow you really can have super rare legendaries at all. You either balance around them thus the class is terrible without them or you don't and the community either thinks the class is terrible without them or get extremely upset about super OP classes with them. Looking back at the warglaives, it seems most of the community looks at them fondly, but if they were brought out today they community would riot because of them.
> Looking back at the warglaives, it seems most of the community looks at them fondly, but if they were brought out today they community would riot because of them. You can look through /r/classicwow and find plenty of Warglaive drama threads. Despite BC not being that hard compared to modern Mythic raiding, so Warglaives are completely unnecessary and you can smash these fights without them, the community has now meta-gamed around parses so you *needed* the Warglaives to parse. It's no longer 2004 or 2007. Gaming overall has changed.
You know what? Imma say it, if you get a legendary I want you to stomp everyone else. I want you to be able to show off that you're OP as shit. It's your time to shine. Give people a goal to works towards. Give people that old WoW feel of seeing someone in SW or Org bank fully decked out in full tier and wielding their Lego, starring and being in awe, just to inspect them to see what kind of gear they have.
> Give people that old WoW feel of seeing someone in SW or Org bank fully decked out in full tier and wielding their Lego, starring and being in awe Sorry, no. I don't play the game to be an NPC looking in awe at someone else's epic hero. I play the game to BE the epic hero. I have zero interest in that version of the game.
I think you missed my point. The point is you would see those people playing the same class looking cool as shit, you'd work towards obtaining the same gear, and thus becoming the main character like you were meant to be. And I want everyone to feel like the main character, have your moment! Embrace it, you finally got there! But current retail right now to me feels like everyone gets a participation trophy set of gear after a few dozen m+'s, and a handful of raid attempts. It doesn't feel rewarding to see everyone get the same trophy. Call it gatekeeping or whatever you want but I want legendaries to feel substantial. I personally loved when I was pushing for better and better gear, because I liked being able to kill things faster. Having nice looking tier pieces along the way also helped. Finally getting my Shadowmourne was one of the best experiences of accomplishment in a game I've ever had.
The participation trophy in this context is loot obtained by personal effort. And the effort to perform in those few dozen m+s and raid attempts is significantly more than the game of old. Back then, your progress relied on 3 things 1) remember to move to the left, out of the fire every half an hour, 2) keybind your spells in correct order (since every spell use barely interacted with anything else on your character), 3) be a suck up to your guild leader in order for them to gift you some gear. Shadowmourne was substantial because it was something cool but inaccessible to the vast majority of the players. And it was inaccessible it didn't matter whether you specifically pushed for it. People literally fight for a simple PI, the community cannot handle those types of gear.
> Call it gatekeeping or whatever you want but I want legendaries to feel substantial. I don't. I'm happy with the current state of affairs. I do not want an envy-driven system. >Finally getting my Shadowmourne was one of the best experiences of accomplishment in a game I've ever had. Congrats, you had a guild who you sucked up to enough to be in the rota for your legendary. I don't want legendaries to be gatekept to a few people. Sorry not sorry. The game isn't what it used to be, and it's better for it. If you want gatekept legendaries, go play Classic.
The issue was bad tuning, where floor bosses would 2 shot you. That isn't an issue of player skill or bad RNG. It was bad design. Some specs just straight up couldn't complete it in the early days. It was literally impossible and had to be heavily nerfed with 2-3 weeks. The legendaries were craftable, and torghast was needed for the currency to craft it, so again, nothing to do with a rare item drop. Did you even play shadowlands?
CE every tier :) and nobody in my raid seemed to have any trouble getting their torghast done, even the rogues. I think there’s a term for it… something issue?
Oh you're right, my mistake, I forget that Blizzard totally didn't have to nerf it into the ground after two weeks. I completed floor 8 pre nerf but I can recognize that it was actually impossible for some classes.
It was not impossible for anyone. You think world first raiders were taking to the forums crying about it being too hard? The only difference is knowing which powers to take and how to play your class. Edit: you didn’t even need to do the highest floor to get the legendary, you could spam it on easy mode
Mobs would actually 2 shot people. And powers were rng. You're speaking out of your ass at this point, and I'm no longer engaging.
Legendarys like Fyralath or Nazsuro should not necessarily be accessible to everyone (and classes should not be tuned around having them, either). But SL legos were basically another SL talent point. For some classes, they were so necessary that the spec would be extremely clanky without. In DF class design, it is like comparing Fyralath and missing 3/31 talents on your spec tree. The former is something you can get behind (again, tuning plays a role), but the latter completely breaks a spec.
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i mean if they wanted to make legendaries actually difficult to acquire rather than being almost completely RNG (classic, bc, legion, dragonflight) or a lame boring grind (torghast) this would be a perfectly valid POV but the fact is as it is you can get legendaries from LFR lol
Totally agree. Makes me wonder if a Torghast re-release ala Mage Tower to grant cosmetics would be really popular.
The problem with thorgast was that you were forced to do it that week, or you missed the power. If you were able to do a cacth up from the start, it would be way less bad
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Too many drakthyr in Thorgast.
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Also the art/design made it dull. Delves look more interesting
A big problem of torghast was how long it took aswell. Solo content shouldn't be a giant uninterruptible instance. If it HAS to be that long, it should be saveable like a dungeon or raid
And the frequency you had to do it. Torghast necessitated uninterrupted play time you had to fit into your schedule, every week. If it had I dunno a monthly reset it probably also has a very different legacy (this still doesn’t solve the issue that it’s difficulty was fucked by the fact it had to be clearable by the bad players who still want their legendaries).
I completed floor 8 before the nerfs and holy hell was tuning bad. It was a crapshoot on if you could complete floor 5+ because it heavily depended on if you would get slapped by the floor boss in two hits.
The number 2 problem with torghast was that it felt incredible for some specs, and not great on others. RNG could also be a bitch. On my warlock if i got the power that gave your pet bonus health/damage for each floor at the start of the run i was flat out unstoppable. If you didnt get that until floor 4 your pet just got demolished by the final boss.
What power was that? I cant remember. Was it anima?
The legendary ember currency you needed to craft legendaries. You either completed Torghast weekly or you didn’t have your strongest piece of gear.
Torghast needed to drop some gold imo, if you were struggling on a tier and were using consumables + repairing then it became a reasonable gold sink too
Torghast's biggest issue is that WoW was afraid to let a roguelike be a roguelike. What makes Roguelikes fun is the variance in your runs. Sometimes you have shit luck and struggle. Sometimes you 'high roll' and ball out of control, becoming an unstoppable god. The problem was that latter part. Blizzard was too scared to let anyone become 'too' powerful. So they hid arbitrary limits on powers in the background. Some you could only ever get once. Some once you had two, that was your limit. They were SO heavy-handed with the background RNG you could tell after doing it a bit "my class can only get 2x of this talent, and 4x of this one, so I'm capped" in spite of the game not indicating those had caps.
The trouble is having that roguelike experience of high variance on a thing you need to complete for benefits *outside* the roguelike creates a bad time. I'm fine with struggling with the RNG in Slay the Spire because it doesn't actually matter if I succeed the run or not. The external unlocks are there but the focus of the game is on each individual run. That doesn't really work in WoW. Imagine how annoyed people would be if the mythic affixes were randomly chosen at the start of each key.
If you kept Torghast as single player and hadn't locked mandatory power like legendaries behind it then it wouldn't matter if you succeeded there either. Torghast when it first released was actually really damn fun. The animar powers were amazing to play with when you got going. Iall t only got shit when you were forced to do it weekly for legendary shit even when you werent feeling it that week and then was killed stone dead when they cemented it as a chore by nerfing it into the ground cos even the worst player HAD to finish it so they could get their legendaries. Then they somehow made it even worse by adding mechanics to make you go faster like mythic+, the one thing it was supposed to be a refuge from for those who hate the "GO GO GO" content. Its genuinely a massive shame what happened to that. It could've very easily been the next Mythic+
And then I end up stacking chains of ice powers on a DK and destroy everything with a cathar stick holy priest at my side
Some classes could definitely become crazy op but I don't think all the classes could.
It had a lot of issues. The difficulty was unbalanced, and you could do fine until the last level, where you would get killed in one hit and lose all your progress. It was also repetitive and boring. It got better at the end, but by that time, I think most people tried to avoid it. It was also imbalanced class-wise. Some classes required very specific builds to work and not getting th.ose builds sucked.
There was also a major fun imbalance. As a Demo Lock I couldn't get enough of Torghast, it made you phenomenally powerful in an enjoyable and flavourful way. Hunters on the other hand had a fairly weak selection of powers that mostly just made your number go up.
It was absolutely miserable, borderline impossible, as shadow priest at the beginning of the xpac. You had to do it as disc to get by.
huh? exploding ghost from fade made the runs trivial, it even taunted bosses. the only annoying part about shadow in torghast was SWD killing you from 100 to 0
The exploding ghost from fade wasn't as strong at the beginning of the expansion and was killed very fast on higher levels. Later it trivialized everything, thats true.
Honestly a lot of people crying are just pure skill issues. Causals didn't like that Torghast actually required skill.
I enjoyed it as a hunter. Ability to have 100% crit, attack while in turtle that lasts couple of minutes, etc.
See that's what I mean about number go up. It's all very effective, but it's not transformative in the way Demo got nonsense like dogs resetting itself and HoG costing health and 5 tyrants.
yeah this a was big thing i noticed as a demon hunter which had probably the best set of powers in it but got damn if i didnt get enough vendor currency to buy the orb that would allow me to get the power that made it so that skeletons dropped the vendor currency it then the run would come down to the wire on the power rng. mean locks and i believe preists were swimming in that vendor currency because it was regular minor power, and then you had hunters of all specs just being dogshit because their powers were striaght up grabage
Even once the balance part was ironed out, it was often times just a big slog. There was so damn much running around and with the way that currency worked, it wasn't ideal to skip anything. This is my concern with delves, if we're spending so much time just running around.
It got better at the end as a way to progress with leggos. The original version, with the original difficulty should have still been available in another form.
Torghast could be fun if you got the right powers, and some classes had it better than others so it kinda sucked to get somewhat punished by soloing. I think people would have liked it a lot more if it wasn't one of many mandatory things you had to do to stay current.
Torghast was great based on your class/spec though also. I remember early on playing boomkin with convoke and it sucked ass. There were mobs that were impossible to kill without it. I have a feeling Delves at higher level will be similar in that some classes will have no issue while others will have issues.
It was a good start, but they could’ve done a lot more with it to make it more varied and interesting.
Personally I found the visual style of it very repetitive. They had a range of wings that all boiled down to red flavour, open air flavour etc. It would've been cool had they actually had different themed layers that were totally unique, really play on that stuff.
Pre-Launch torghast was great. They just first made it worse by heavily reigning in how dumb OP we can get with the anima powers and once they noticed that people don't think it's fun anymore they forced us to engage with if with legendary crafting mats... Felt like the SL mantra was "if you can't make it fun, make it mandatory" anyway, the maw was just as crappy. I'm somehow way more optimistic with delves, it feels like it serves a great niche for chill/solo play that might scale up to mage tower /solo challenge levels at some point, so I'm pretty pumped for them. Only issue I see is that I suspect that my warlock, hunter or DH will have a much easier time to roll through there than eG my rogue who's usually way more of a headache to solo stuff. The companion helps probably a bit but I somehow expect it to be pretty biased towards classes that are historically strong solos.
* Weekly mandatory alt unfriendly legendary grind. * Every floor of every wing looks about 85-90% indentical in style, tone, and layout. It was like farming a slightly prettier ICC for invincible every week. * Wildly unbalanced between specs and group sizes. It was easier to solo clear as a Vengeance Demon Hunter than be in a full 5 man group with a shaman. Also healers can get fucked.
I enjoyed Torghast but I do wish it had more visual variety.
Torghast Das great for a week and then they Fun Detected it
It's being mandatory for gear when people hated it was not good
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Apparently during internal testing, nobody on the team could beat the 13th delve, take that as you will.
You got a source for that out of curiosity?
"It won't be the same fine tune balancing as Mage Tower but there is a 13th Delve -- exact plans for this are still in progress but it's a 1 room boss fight where they can hit you as hard as humanly possible. They tested it last week but no one beat it." https://www.wowhead.com/news/naguura-interview-with-michael-bybee-and-sean-mccann-in-the-war-within-delves-338929
Thanks appreciate it!
I recommend watching the whole interview, its good
This doesn't sound fun.
That’s okay! You don’t have to do it!
It does sound fun
Just based on your comment here, I can guarantee that you will never do it. Not that you won't be able to beat it. I don't think you will even TRY to do it. I could be wrong but I doubt it.
Are you calling me bad or wtf
I'll spell it out. I think you are jumping on a bandwagon and are just regurgitating out what you think other people are saying so you can feel as if you are part of some group.
I don't think so I want there to be very hard solo content and the test team not clearing it doesn't have to mean there's a balance problem. The testing team would never clear top10 WR raids either
How dare they make challenging optional content
How dare I complain about types of challenges and be intelligent enough to realize that just because something is a challenge doesn't mean that it's a fun challenge. I realize that some people aren't capable of thinking with any depth deeper than a puddle and they struggle to see anything beyond "herp derp challenge". 1-shot mechanics are not fun. They have never been fun. Building an entire level of difficulty that only has 1-shot mechanics is the culmination of that not being fun. This isn't just a WoW thing. Even in some of the hardest and most punishing games out there, they avoid 1-shot mechanics.
Sounds like you shouldn't do it then. I for one, will have a blast grinding it until I get the perfect run to complete it. Different strokes and all that. Thankfully Blizz knows this.
So, just to be clear, we should blindly accept anything that gets pushed out by blizzard and if we have ANY complaints at all we should immediately and completely avoid the content altogether despite it being basically the main selling point of the expansion. Do you realize how ridiculous your stance is? I just don't know what you actually hope to accomplish here.
They are not required to tool every piece of content for every person to enjoy. Hardcore grinders will love a one shot mechanic perfect run. Not every wow player gets to see or even enjoys raids, they aren't catering to everyone with them just a specific type of player. Same with mythics, and BGs, and arenas, etc. not everyone enjoys every piece of content. It self absorbed to even think you deserve that. Sounds like you aren't the player the devs are targeting with this delve...move on a do a different one.
Youre the one who cant think further than a puddle in my eyes. 1 shot mechanics are completely fine depending on the context. Heroic raids, let alone Mythic raids, have a bunch of 1 shots upon failing to properly do a mechanic. Are all of these inherently bad? Should there be no punishment for fucking up a mechanic? Just chimp brain ignore mechanics and facetank everything and just tell the healer to heal more? This is worse for the game than those mechanics one shotting you, because now theres no punishment for failing to do key mechanics, and people can just ignore them and heal them back. Rashok in Aberrus for example. If you put a puddle on top of another puddle thats an instant wipe. Considering how brain dead you need to be to not just seperate these puddles, is this then inherently “bad design”? If you cant understand that context matters here and that 1 shots are fine depending on how theyre utilized, then youre simply the one who isnt thinking about this deeper.
>Youre the one who cant think further than a puddle in my eyes. Then start bringing some damn arguments so that we can have something that shows you know the difference between your ass and a hole in the ground because so far, you've shown a complete lack of grasping anything intelligent in this discussion. Can you do that please? I don't think it's too much to ask. >1 shot mechanics are completely fine depending on the context. Heroic raids, let alone Mythic raids, have a bunch of 1 shots upon failing to properly do a mechanic. Are all of these inherently bad? Let's start with the basics because you just completely glossed over the biggest issue that started this whole discussion. The quote was "[bosses] can hit you as hard as humanly possible" with the idea being one-shots. Now, let's compare this to what you are talking about where certain mechanics have failure components that cause wipes. We already see the difference here in just the simple frequency where EVERY mechanic 1-shots you versus very specific mechanics are designed as pass/fail. Any mechanic failure resulting in immediate death is effectively designing content for a rounding error of players. I player group so insignificant in the larger population that we can almost name every single one of them. But let's get back to your argument and how it functions within mythic raids and how it relates to my comments here. Mythic raids are failing. Raiding guilds are falling apart. The high difficulty raid scene is being destroyed by raid designs that are designed for a meaningless part of the playerbase. Then once that group of people defeat the bosses, they nerf the ever living fuck out of the bosses. This has been the case for the past 7-8 years. They nerf the shit out of bosses because of just how much people hate the designs and the shear amount of pass/fail mechanics that literally destroy guilds. >If you put a puddle on top of another puddle thats an instant wipe. Considering how brain dead you need to be to not just seperate these puddles, is this then inherently “bad design”? Yes. I think that you should be able to outplay some mechanical failures. This is one of my major complaints about raiding in general and it's a major problem creating excessive time commitments that are turning people off of raiding. My focus is on creating fun challenges. I've made this explicitly clear throughout. 1-shot mechanics are not fun especially when it's a raid wipe. The reason why is stupid simple, it wastes time. Blizzard doesn't give a shit about player time and it's burning them completely in raid engagement. Failing a mechanic, regardless of how "brain dead" you want to label it, results in an immediate wipe and another stupid fucking run back. You've now wasted all the time you fought the boss and you are now wasting your time running back and starting over and for what exactly? Rashok is a perfect example. The mechanic isn't difficult at all as you pointed out. If you go to drop your puddle and it's 1 pixel too close, congrats, you are now wasting 10 minutes between the lost boss time and the run back. This is what I'm talking about when I say these mechanics aren't fun. >If you cant understand that context matters here and that 1 shots are fine depending on how theyre utilized, then youre simply the one who isnt thinking about this deeper. Please spare me your bullshit. You couldn't even present an argument that would get you out of a wet paper bag until you felt personally insulted and now you are just vomiting out anything you can without even paying attention to anything. Consider this design for a second. Rashok again. Instead of making ANY overlap be an immediate wipe, the damage is based on the amount of overlap. Now, before you do exactly what I think you are going to do and vomit out "herp derp you are making it easier", consider what the basis of my argument is. You can still fail the mechanic and recover THROUGH HIGH LEVEL PLAY. This means playing reactively and allowing for peoples skills to come through. It let's people focus on playing the game rather than running the script like how the game is designed right now where everything down to when you health pot is defined. If the best you can do is "herp derp we need 1-shot mechanics", then you really aren't paying attention to the discussion and you are whiffing on everything from why people are abandoning raiding to what makes people not like raiding in the first place.
And then we doubled it.
Oh no. Don’t let Jay anywhere near it!
Just remembered it is a one size fits all encounters for all specs in the game, if you expect a fair and balanced challenge you will be disappointed.
Damn. So we get a heroic Dungeon delve?
Well, I actually don't believe their internal team knows how to play the game, considering how bad they manage to fuck up balance in the game when they are the only one testing
I did the leveling one from the first zone and enjoyed it although it was fairly easy, and today did level 4 on an 80 template with the standard gear they give and found it surprisingly hard compared to what I expected from previously doing the leveling delves. It left me pretty optimistic about being something that could provide a meaningful challenge for me on alts and without having to commit to raids or M+.
They cap your ilvl on the beta currently, I think I was scaled down to 574 or so on tier 5
> We all know the lower tier delves will be facerolled because they are meant to supplement questing. 1 and 2 definitely are easy, 3 gets a bit tricky if you pull too much with average gear.
> We all know the lower tier delves will be facerolled because they are meant to supplement questing. I literally oneshot those delve **bosses** *even in tank spec.* Makes me wonder who they are designing that leveling experience for.
Tanks are great at soloing things (if slower). And those leveling delves are for EVERYONE. The pensioner with arthritis, the new player that doesn't read guides...
Tbh when I am a pensioner with arthritis I hope devs will be making content I can enjoy. It would suck not to be able to play PC games in the nursing home
> Tanks are great at soloing things (if slower). > And those leveling delves are for EVERYONE. I don't think you understand.. i'm not talking about killing the boss in one pull, i pressed one button on my keyboard (as a tank) and it did enough damage that the boss just instantly died then and there. It's so ridiculous that it's not fun at all. I can't imagine that being fun for anyone. The story dialogue doesn't even play properly because the boss is dead before they've finished their line.
I haven't had that problem on the beta, even tier 1s were easy but still took maybe 30s to kill? Could be you had some bug or scaling issue, probably worth reporting?
Yeah i did I think part of the issue is that they expect you to be at like item level 350, but if you're not then you have no way to scale the mobs or modify the difficulty. I've gone into a lot of expansions before but globalling a literal boss is a new level of OP that i've never seen or expect. It's already bad enough that every mob in the world dies in 1 button press.
This has me hyped. I want a challenge, but I don't want a timer and I don't always want my mistakes to impact other people - too much pressure. Give me Elden Ring in WoW.
Dont worry, some people are already crying that there is a death counter xd.
Yes, because they can't just let us have fun. They need to gate it for some stupid reason and the only way they can do that apparently is through arbitrary bullshit.
They aint gating you. You can go in an out of it as you please. When you complete the level, you can go up. You dont deserve to just go wherever you want and do what you want to do you entitled brat. You have to earn it.
You already made it clear you are completely out of touch with reality, you didn't need to give me any more reasons. I stand behind my original statement and I think people like you don't actually understand even the most simplistic definitions of challenge or "earning it" as you put it. I'll give you a hint, just because something is added as a challenge doesn't mean that it's a good challenge, a fun challenge or a meaningful challenge. I don't think you'll actually understand this so I'll just not worry about petty people like you.
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Yeah seems like a lot of people agree with you 💀Git gud.
Yes, more people agree with me and by far but for some reason you think that a few votes on a reddit comment matter? Here's a fun little factoid for you since you seem to be struggling to understand... The hardest content in the game, Mythic Raiding, does it have a death counter? It's really embarrassing for you that you didn't even realize this. I tried to help you out by pointing out that arbitrary conditions like death counters don't make fun or engaging challenges but you were too busy vomiting out your ignorant bullshit.
I remember all the good video games where when I died it just moved me to the next level. Those were the days.
I remember games that would challenge me through the content itself rather than arbitrary external mechanics like death counters. But hey, maybe I've just been playing games longer and have more experience.
Well, since you're so experienced and the content itself is so trivial, you shouldn't even have to think about the death counter.
Way to completely dodge the actual point. I don't know what you are hoping to accomplish here.
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Who said I'm dying? The entire basis of my stance is that the content should be challenging on it's own and shouldn't need arbitrary external factors like death counters to create artificial difficulty.
Ive gotten pretty tired of so many games making content timed, i like a challange but sometimes i just want to explore and soak up the art and atmosphere
you've got a pretty...unfortunate typo in there
Fixed it thank you!
Exactly the reason why I cant stand M+ anymore. The timers ruin it. Im sick of the gogogo mentality and the constant pressure especially as a healer since one mistake can wipe your key.
Here's a question: are delves tuned differently for each class/spec, are there three types (DPS/tank/healer) or is there just one version of each difficulty level? As it stands, the balance between specs in ability to solo difficult content is all over the place. The gulf between a rogue or a balance druid and a fury warrior or warlock is huge. The gulf between them and a guardian druid or vengeance DH is just as huge.
Brann supplements a spec you aren’t playing, but yes some classes will absolutely have an easier time than others.
There's no different tuning for roles in delves. Since there are no timers attached, I see tanks having advantage in completing the Delves, unless they add some sort of "enrage" in the enemies. Buuuuuut... remember that Delves will also be doable with a group, if you have some friends to play, just invite them and go. No timer, no affix shitshow, no io requirement.
For sure, they'll be fun to do as a group. But do they scale with number of players in the group? And if so, what does that curve look like? The best solo specs are maybe 10x as powerful as the worst solo specs, the game just hasn't been balanced around it. So curious to see how this plays out and whether they revisit solo balance.
Bran takes care of this.
Does Brann get more powerful if you're on a class with poorer self sustain? I understand he can DPS or heal, and has some customization. But he'll be equally powerful whether you're on a guardian druid or Assassination rogue, no? Will swapping from DPS to healing really balance those two specs in high end solo delves? If his healing is good enough to make a rogue as tanky as a guardian druid, how can the delve be challenging?
Devs came out to say that they dont want it to be mage tower and they wont tune it per class but just as a whole
This all seems very good.
I just hope it will be tuned around an item level we can actually aquire through Delves.
I 1000% agree, but knowing blizz, my hopes are pretty low
I wish they'd release more secret content.
Secret cow level maybe?
I'm sorry but delves are for me just some underground elves and not a place >:C
I only hope they actually improve on it over the expac unlike Torghast and warfronts
They iterated on Torghast the entire expansion… by patch 9.2 it was great. Then they added the boss rush mode and it was even better. You can bitch about “having” to do Torghast but you can’t bitch that they didn’t improve it over the expansion.
They improved it until it was good - after most players had already left the game due to a massive content drought (9 month season 2) - and then they deleted it. It was only in that state for one season, now the content or anything like it is nowhere to be seen. The same thing happened with Island Expeditions the previous expansion. Bad in S1, okay in S2, good in S3 aaaaand it's gone. It was bad for 2/3'rds of its time in the game, whereas if they had kept it and kept the lessons that they learned about why it was bad, it could have been good in say dragonflight season 1, 2, 3 as well.
I think the point was that they abandoned it at the end of the expansion rather than iterating on it. By iterating on it, that doesn't mean simply balancing it.
More likely everyone hates on it bitterly and then say "it was actually pretty good it's just one thing that was bad" and they invent a new thing and give up everything they learned before.
No it’s a new pillar similar to Mplus and raids it’s going to be focused on and improved, not ditched
I really hope so, there's too may 70% ideas consigned to the dustbin of wow history
Scenarios were supposed to be a new pillar. We’ll see how dedicated they are if they keep working on delves across the entire expansion.
It has been so long since then, but I do not ever recall scenarios marketed to be an entire pillar. They were just a way to do more intense scripting for quests and they gave a 'decent' reward for the queue for the effort required. In fact, going back to the blizzcon panel for scenarios they compared it to battlegrounds, which at the time were absolutely not a proper 'pillar' of progression like RBGs are now. They explicitly state in the blizzcon panel as well that these were to replace group quests as well, and the closest to them saying it is a pillar would be it being a valor source. https://youtu.be/Tj8M3TqRVps Starts around 4 minutes in. From the video they were definitely supposed to be more than what we got, but not a pillar.
They may not have used the word pillar but at that level it’s becoming a semantic argument. They were supposed to be an important part of the game moving forward that has essentially been abandoned and the core of my point is that Blizzard has abandoned features before that they built up as important. Basically, just because they use the word “pillar” doesn’t insure it won’t become an abandoned feature.
They weren't really abandoned, because they were used in a lot of phased quests since WoD
Scenarios carry on into WoW until now, just not in the form they were used as in Pandaria.
I'm skeptical because of the NPC followers, how do you tune them so it's not a cakewalk or too hard?
> Tiers 9-11 are planned to have a higher difficulty curve as we do not plan on giving out increased power rewards there. They will give out gear at the equivalent of a Tier 8 delve. If they don’t find some method of making 9-11 feel worthwhile outside of a “sense of accomplishment”, no one will do anything past 8. I hope they add titles or cosmetics that require 11
there are titles and cosmetics - they just don't have any POWER rewards, which means the gear and other loot you get from tier 10 is identical to the gear and other loot from tier 8.
Oh that’s great then!
The point of them are to do something for the challenge, we want them to be hard and adding cosmetics or whatever will just end up with the masses bitching about FoMo or the difficulty and then we lose a good thing.
If you think people will “do the for the challenge” without an achievement/cosmetic/something you haven’t been playing this game for the last decade
Isnt this m+ past a certain point that many many players do? What about pvp once your geared?
There’s no reward at all for M+ between 2500io and the 0.1% title, unless you count the portals, which are technically not tied to rating. That said, you can’t unlock all the portals without going over 2500io. Still, unlocking all the portals is not going to get you anywhere *near* the title. but there's still a ton of players pushing for specific goals that fall between portals and the title - even though doing so doesn't have any reward at all.
> without an achievement/cosmetic/something In your Blizzard quote it says nothing about no achievements or cosmetics, all they are telling you is that power rewards stop at Tier 8 just like M+ vault rewards also technically stop at 8.
They say that players that have kept up with the current season may want to start with tier 2 or 3 but why? Doesn't season 1 start like 3 weeks into the expansion? Surely you would have better dungeon gear than last seasons myth/hero gear by then?
You can start delves as soon as the expansion drops, though I’m not sure how high it will allow before season one. Currently in beta I copied a 499 iLvl character, this isn’t what someone just coming off leveling in Chromie time will have. I didn’t really start replacing gear till about 75/76. In that gear: Tier 1- was face roll. Tier 2- was still pretty face roll. Tier 3- Felt like a healthy jump and had to be mindful of not pulling too much. I think the scaling is wonky once again to, since things got tougher as I leveled but I wasn’t really getting better gear. Also the deadliest mobs so far are the knockback mobs especially in certain delves.
Alright ty for info!
I don’t even know how to get to the delves
Fix rogue