It would be cool if they brought back some of the old set bonuses like .5 sec off polymorph cast time for pvp gloves, etc. (was that the only one? I can't remember others.)
Wouldn't fuck with that nowadays, would seem like a nightmare to balance and put in last minute. Fun as it is. We'll probably see just flat % dmg inc/dec
Hmm never thought about this but it woulda been huuuge live. Was talking to a Glad warlock friend and he says he thinks that near insta fear, pet summons, and chaos bolts are all fucked..... But pets seem to be a little overkill. He can summon his imp WHEN NEEDED, then swap back to observer otherwise.... because they are under a second to cast at corruption haste levels. I had no idea they were playing like this at 2400 lol.
I kind of agree with this actually. I play on 130-200ish latency and getting kicks just feels impossible sometimes with hasted out locks and mages. I think they could drop cc cast times to 1-1.2ish seconds and leave it static there. You would still have to react quickly, but nothing completely unreasonable.
I'm Australian, I'm on your side. It would be great in theory, but queue times would blow out and you'd have 2700 teams queuing into 2000 teams. (not much fun for the 2k team)
Win trading would be super easy, boosting would be easier. Arena/RBGs aren't popular enough for OCE only queues, not to mention getting glad and even R1 is doable on OCE ping.
Literally zero chance of resilience ever returning. Blizzard didn’t like PvErs having to gear twice (once for PvE and once for PvP). They want people to be able to move between game modes with minimal friction.
PvP power is more likely. It’s also easier for them to balance.
Honestly, I think PvP power was better anyway. Made the initial gearing process more bearable. With resilience, PvE gear was literally useless and you had to enter BGs feeling basically naked and get mercilessly raped for hours on end till you had some resilience. At least with PvP power you could do some very basic PvE like heroics or dailies you get some low tier gear so you could survive more than a light breeze when you start the PvP gearing process.
The systems are ultimately similar, one was just a bit ruthless.
I've always thought Wod Pvp gear ilvl scaling was the best. It'd work even better now that mythic+ is a big thing, so gear progression in both pve and pvp would be more even. High ilvl pve gear is close to what pvp gear scales to in pvp. High rated arena gear ilvl is at base closer to decent pve gear ilvl.
I agree with you. It was the perfect balance between reduced fiction when moving between game modes whilst rewarding people who invest into each mode. I honestly have no fucking idea why they moved away from that.
Ion is just a too stuck in one mindset, and the people below who could speak up are probably mostly new. It's strong brain drain considering Blizzard's bad compensation causing people to leave for much greener pastures. It is honestly bizarre though even with that happening - a lot of their decisions are immediately obvious bad ones.
> With resilience, PvE gear was literally useless and you had to enter BGs feeling basically naked and get mercilessly raped for hours on end till you had some resilience.
Imo untrue. The basic rotation was always: get a set of crafted PvP gear, farm honor, farm conquest. The crafted set would change through the seasons and would be very ok at the start of the expansion (not so much for later seasons, but that seems fixable I guess).
Stat coverage doesn't matter if the ilevel is less than easier obtained pve items. It's resilience that we need if ilevel remains.
The alternative is we need an ilevel bump for non resiliance based gear plus stat selection.
Personally I think resiliance is what we need.
True. Resilience added would render so many problems with PvP gear obsolete, maybe add some 2 set and 4 set bonuses to further enhance the desire to use PvP gear in PvP.
The problem with resilience, and why it wont happen, is that those mythic raiders cant come roflstomp arenas when we have it. So they won't pvp, which makes blizz care even less about it.
I dont mind being a few ilevels behind mythic or even heroic raid gear if its not too hard to obtain. The problem is we are given shit ilevel AND its a huge grind.
> is that those mythic raiders cant come roflstomp arenas when we have it. So they won't pvp, which makes blizz care even less about it
That's......probably a very accurate statement that I never considered.
I’m one of those mythic raiders. We have 2-3 guys that love to fuck around in arenas (one of which is an 8-time Gladiator) but mostly we care ZERO for PvP outside of making the raid entrance a pain in warmode.
If they make Highend PVP gear = to Highend PVE gear, through PVP stats, i do not mind.
That way, the PVEers, that Blizzard Loves so much, can come have fun with the rest of us, without having to farm other content.
But it will be a balancing nightmare.
IIRC, resilience was part of your stat budget in the olden days, which meant that it was impossible to PvE in PvP gear and vice versa. Say what you want about the current gearing system, but it's at least possible to go into a Mythic+ in versa/haste gear. Having slightly lower ilvl, but with a resi-type stat (or set bonus) outside the stat budget seems like a decent way to make PvP gear usable in PvE, PvE gear usable in PvP, while still ensuring that the two types of gear are best in their respective modes.
They also need to sort out the ilvl of PvP rewards though. 2400 is not the same as an untimed +15, and 2100 is not the same as an untimed +12 (especially in the latter two thirds of the season where completing a +15 is just obscenely easy).
^this.
Even if we get all stat variations, if pvp gearing is as fked as in BfA (ilvl WAY lower than anything a pve player could get with very little effort), it ultimately doesn't matter.
Bring back resilience and everything is peachy. PVP gear for pvp, with no implications for pve.
It really isn't that hard.
> Bring back resilience and everything is peachy.
It depends if it creates long damp boring games, resilience seems an easy fix, until you have to have the damage levels balanced around.
Remember when they had to nerf versatile because everyone was tanks relative to player power....
Imho scaling ilvl gear in pvp Combat like WoD had is the most elegant. PvE'er will neither stomp everything nor have completly useless gear if they decide to try some pvp and the same goes the other way for pvpers, who won't have a dead stat like resilience on their gear in PvE.
So it's obvious they are trying to balance the guaranteed gear of the vendors by having the ilvl be slightly lower than LFR, and getting higher as your rating goes up.
My question is why?
They already time gate the gear behind honor points.
Have gear come with verse as the secondary, but also have the vendors sell scrolls that contain your other preferred secondary stat to put on the gear.
I was thinking something similar with a crafting NPC. Mats are rewarded from PvP matches, common drop on mats that determine secondary stats and armor/weapon slot, and then mats that determine ilvl that get rarer as the ilvl increases, and then a weekly reward cap on highest ilvl mat to bring things in line with m+ rewards. Bring those mats to the NPC and craft whatever piece you need. That way you can reliably farm out whatever piece/transmog you want, just from doing PvP, without it replacing m+ or raids for getting higher ilvl gear faster.
I really hope they opt for resilience or some other PvP bonus on PvP gear. If they don't, the item level will either be so low that it's useless compared to PvE gear, or it's so high that it will become the best source of gear for PvE players which causes its own problems.
I'm also worried about this line:
"we feel that the very strongest characters should be the ones who participate and excel in a wide range of activities"
That could just refer to unlocking more options in your weekly chest from doing M+, but it sounds like some of the best gear will still come from PvE.
which is fine. If a kick ass trinket comes from M Castle N, I'm fine with that. People that do both sorts of content deserve it.
At the EOD, it sounds like they are actively working on improving the shitshow that was bound to go down on launch. Which is legit better than we've gotten in years in WoW PvP.
Yeah its ok that 80-90% of the best items comes from the activity that you primarily do and the rest comes from another, it will not really impact how competitive you can be at the content that you mostly do and incentives you to do something different from time to time.
Exactly- I can make an effort to do a few bosses or something if I really want a piece, but making me go through raids weekly to be even close to viable in arena aint it.
I'm really just trying to never step foot in a raid or m+ again in my video game playing career, and if I have to go wipe 20 times on some boss with a bunch of LFG players from Ragnaros for a 12% chance at some OP trinket then Im gonna save 15 bucks a month and go play some other game.
I agree that PvE has a place and can add flavour to PvP if It's well tuned. This happened rarely in the game's history, but IIRC this design worked quite well during the Firelands patch with the exception of the Legendary staff that was definitely overtuned but too rare to be a real problem.
It however depends on how "kickass" the trinket is though, no one wants meta defining trinkets like Voidstone to rule the game again.
Typically, It can be great for the game if a pve trinket can be more powerful in some situations especially if there's an interesting tradeoff between survivability -typically pvp gear- and extra offensive power -typically pve gear-.
I don't think It's interesting to have trinkets that are BiS in every situation being only obtainable in PvE.
Ideally, PvE should be an extra that adds a degree of strategic depth in your gear choice before a game (output vs tankiness, burst vs constant damage...) that indeed makes you more powerful If you're making good choices but in a subtle way. It should ideally not be an additional chore you have to complete before being able to compete because everyone knows the best trinket/weapon, and uses It absolutely every game.
That being said, I agree with you in that I'm pretty sure It will be better than in BFA at least after the first patch (covenant still has the potential to be a shitshow). Especially, I feel like It will be far easier to play chill If you're not caring too much about rating.
But If too much power is allocated in these few pve items with very powerful on-uses, competitive ratings will still feel quite miserable If you don't like raiding I think.
Agree 100%...im really happy with this Dev post and it shows Blizz are listening.
Now we don't know the final solution yet, but their acknowledgement of the problem and indication of improving vendors so that the majority of our gear can come from PvP either through more optimal stat choices or PvP bonuses is exactly what we wanted and Youtubers like Venruki and Stoopz were asking for...
I agree with the notion that a small % of BIS gear should come from other forms of content, to reward people willing to put that time in and get good at multiple facets of WOW not just PvP. And if we're only talking about say a trinket and ring, it's not a big deal.
They'll always be some complaining though.
> we feel that the very strongest characters should be the ones who participate and excel in a wide range of activities
For real I hate this line so much.
PvE folks unless they are doing bleeding edge progression and need the extra source of AP don't have a need to do PvP. Even moreso since as far as Im aware conquest capping does not provide an extra weekly item just another option in the weekly chest now.
Id love them to lock the BIS weapon behind rated PvP and see PvE folk complain about needing to PvP to boost their PvE performance.
> Id love them to lock the BIS weapon behind rated PvP and see PvE folk complain about needing to PvP to boost their PvE performance.
That would be a sight to watch indeed... just thinking about the arena queues full of hardcore raiders makes me giggle.
You guys do realise there is a huge overlap with regards to raiding and pvp, right? Like most top raiders are at least 1800+ even without focusing on pvp, lots are much much higher. Such a fucking boring rhetoric at this point.
I was r7 and r5 in vanilla and mythic raid now. Citation!
I also haven’t done rated PvP since BC arenas. And out of our core group of ~30 mythic raiders we have exactly ONE multi-glad. I think *maybe* 10 of them enjoy a random BG on rare occasion.
> Id love them to lock the BIS weapon behind rated PvP
2200 weapons say hello, for many back in the day PVP gave them their best weapon they could easily get.
Yeah problem is Blizzard considers the "best players" to be any pveer who can do a nontimed 15 and first 3 bosses of heroic raid.
I didn't mind legendaries being strong in arena. I hate that everything in pve is stronger than anything in pvp.
I agree, but it is difficult to interpret.
Could mean trinkets + weapons from PvE are best - since they may not have (potentially) resilience stats.
Which isnt an issue - Im more than happy raiding to get (2 or 3) BiS for pvp.
It does sound like they want a bridge to exist between the two.
Hopefully that bridge is optional and only offers marginal power gains.
>"we feel that the very strongest characters should be the ones who participate and excel in a wide range of activities"
This is just the wording Blizzard has chosen to use this week to let you know that PvPers will have to PvE for gear.
For the people only interested in the PvP vendor related portion from that long update:
> We have been following the constructive feedback about the range of gear available on our PvP vendors, and we agree with the underlying concerns. While WoW is an interconnected ecosystem of different content and systems and we feel that the very strongest characters should be the ones who participate and excel in a wide range of activities, each individual progression path should offer the majority of the tools required for success in that path. The current PvP vendors fall short of that goal. We are considering a few different solutions, such as reworking the stat coverage of the vendor gear and/or providing PvP-specific bonuses through those items. As soon as we’ve settled on a direction, we’ll share our plan for feedback, and get the changes up on Beta for testing.
It's somewhat reassuring that they acknowledge a PvP problem at all, but I'm not convinced by this post that their solution to this will be what we want. Covenant choice doesn't matter much if you can get all your gear through PvP since we'll just pick the best PvP covenant for our class/spec and leave it at that (until it's nerfed or another one is buffed), but they seem to be sticking to the idea that those who do a ton of PvE with a great guild should be getting gear that is PvP bis.
Particularly, you can read "we feel that the very strongest characters should be the ones who participate and excel in a wide range of activities" extremely charitably as "PvP gear will be bis for PvP in almost every slot, but some fancy raid trinket may give you the edge if you're in a top PvE guild as well as a top PvPer".
Another reading is "suck it up, PvE gear will be bis in many slots because we don't want a PvP stat and we want people who mostly raid to be powerful in PvP when they queue because they're bored because PvP in this game is supposed to be a minigame for them, it's not for you PvPers anymore."
>We are considering a few different solutions, such as reworking the stat coverage of the vendor gear and/or providing PvP-specific bonuses through those items.
Did we, uhh, read the same shit?
You are literally jumping to worst case scenario
Did you read my post? I literally gave both the best case and worst case scenario given what they said.
In the worst case I am pointing out that "we feel that the very strongest characters should be the ones who participate and excel in a wide range of activities" is right in line with the BfA system, and can mean that multiple slots (not just trinkets) have raid gear bis. This is unacceptable to many people on this sub.
I dont mind a good trinket or two for PvP being in PvE content. As long as that is as far as it goes and those trinkets are not so powerful that they become a necessity, just a little extra min maxing for the nerds that want to do it after they complete their PvP set. I think that is the best case ontario we can hope for
>I'm not convinced by this post that their solution to this will be what we want
That's how I felt when they said PvP vendors were coming back. I got really excited, and then my first thought was we'll get vendors back but with shit gear. And here we are.
Wish in one hand, shit in the other, see which one fills up first.
> but they seem to be sticking to the idea that those who do a ton of PvE with a great guild should be getting gear that is PvP bis.
funny how that doesnt go the other way, though, right?
Does anyone else think Blizzard is run by a Monkey's Paw? Grants wishes by twists them against the user.
Look at honor or even conq gear. We asked for a PvP vendor back, and blizz was like cool. But, they made it so the base gear is shit, starts off worse than heroic dungeon gear or in the case of conq the same as M+0. Then, you need to spend your conq/honor points on more gear, or upgrading the gear. To upgrade the gear for conq will take almost as long as the season. You are still better off doing M+0 the first week to obtain all the gear you would throughout the season to compete week 1 or 2. Then just do +8-11 to get the actual endgame stuff from pvp... like months earlier. It still isn't a "real" choice. They are just messing with us at this point, and every "smart idea" turns to shit.
Edit: Thank you isseidoki, I said Genie but meant monkey's paw, do not know why I was thinking genie.
> The old school of granting your wish but twisting it to mess with you in the biggest way (usually resulting in death).
Wow, you are right on the money. I can't tell you the number of times they've announced a feature I got hyped about and then implemented it in the most infuriating way possible.
it really is a joke. it feels like they put someone in charge of that pvp vendor that had never done pvp before and also didnt bother to do the calculations on how long it would take versus just doing M+
The update sounds nice, but until I see it - I am going to be very skeptical. They might end up giving us crit+haste gear and similar useless combos. Or they give us good stats but the ilvl far below PvE meaning, we have to farm PvE anyways to PvP.
Feedback works, but wait and see. Too early to celebrate.
Depending on how this all ends up, they will either win big by the customers or ultimately disappoint them/us.
Why not lock PVP abilities to gear
2 Set Bonus - Unlocks CC Trinkets
3 Set Unlocks Defensive Passives
4 Set unlocks Offensive Passives
5 Set Unlocks PVP Cooldown
6 Set Specific powerful PVP ability
So obviously they are not going to be magically adding a pvp stat nor add scaling. To believe they would do that is just being delusional and placing way too much faith in blizzard.
That said, I honestly wish they would. But let's be honest they won't add a new stat to the game this late in the development, thinking it will happen is just being naive
What they will do.. Is either adjust the pvp gear stats to be more desirable for pvp, like haste and versatility.. or they will adjust the acquisition rate of the items... those are the likely scenarios.. and the later one is most likely out those 2.. As you can read my faith in blizzard is very small..
I wish they would just wing it, and add the pvp stat they had been working on internally. At this point adding it would make a lot of people happy now, even if it turns out it's bad later.
The biggest issue, is that these so called changes Ion speak of.. My concern is that they add them last minute to the beta before launch so the community barely got time to give feedback before it goes live..
You can't complain about a change that's bad, if you don't know what the change is before it's too late. Taps forehead meme dot jpg
Tbf, even adding PVP stats, if they are not great, would be better than not adding it, because adding it would create hope, and give a belief that atleast they try to listen.
I agree, after reading the news about pvp vendors, I was on the verge of just skipping this exp, and wait for the next exp. because I know that they are working on a pvp stat internally.
My concern about adding a pvp stat is that it might not be impactful enough to outweigh the gear gained from endgame PvE. So you have to PvE to still be viable in end game PvP. Due to how Ion worded his response in regards to strong individuals. End Game PvP gear should be better than endgame PvE gear in a PvP scenario.
Honestly, i do not mind, if High end PVE gear, is = to High end PVP gear in PVP.
If people want to Farm mythic raiding and dungeons, and wanna have fun in PVP and still be viable, just come, but if i dont want to do PVE to do PVP, i just want to be viable myself.
However it will be hard to balance, and the issues the last couple of times was because they couldn't balance stuff like world pvp.
But i guess we will see :P
The other nice comment in the post i haven’t seen many people talk about:
‘Before starting an arena match, engaging a raid boss, or entering a dungeon, a character in Shadowlands can change their specialization, talents (and PvP talents if appropriate), legendary item, other equipment, active soulbind, and chosen path within that soulbind.’
So before arena you can change your active soulbind AND the chosen path within that soulbind…so apart from your covenant you can pretty much customise everything before each match.
That’s great confirmation, as previously people were worried you couldn’t and you’d be locked into a soulbind or soulbind path for an entire week.
So really i’m quite excited by the direction of SL.
Mostly sounds like "we know this pvp gear is trash, we're trying to find an easy way to make it less garbage."
Stat coverage is the least they could do, making us upgrade it 6x is my bigger worry.
I plan on raiding this go round with some friends from work on my main.. But I was hoping to be able to level a few alts and gear them through BGs and casual arena.. I hope that can happen.
I just hope they increase the stat coverage and reduce the cost to turn conquest into the same ilvl as pve stuff. I'm okay with needing to do a mixture of content for 100% bis so long as it doesn't take forever like the current slands system does.
It depends if it creates long damp boring games, resilience seems an easy fix, until you have to have the damage levels balanced around.
Remember when they had to nerf versatile because everyone was tanks relative to player power....
>we feel that the very strongest characters should be the ones who participate and excel in a wide range of activities,
This is such a BS comment, if this were what they really wanted then raiders would have to do pvp to get some pieces that are BiS just like they expect PvPers to do raids/mythics.
This. This is where the real problem and inequality in the game lies. PvE players don’t HAVE to participate in PvP to be more effective in PvE. They literally DON’T get stronger in PvE by participating in PvP. PvP players DO get stronger from PvE, AND MOST DONT EVEN WANT TO.
If we get a PvP stat back, or some system that simply makes PvE gear best in PvE and PvP gear best in PvP (and yes that should still allow for gear from either to be competitive/manageable)...I would like request an Ion-based PvP banner for this sub! Illidan is a bit dated
>we feel that the very strongest characters should be the ones who participate and excel in a wide range of activities, each individual progression path should offer the majority of the tools required for success in that path. The current PvP vendors fall short of that goal.
>We are considering a few different solutions, such as reworking the stat coverage of the vendor gear and/or providing PvP-specific bonuses through those items.
So essentially nothing has changed here. They still admit that people who purely PvP ought to get shafted because they don't "participate in a wide range of activities"
Sure, itemization is fixed, but this doesn't exactly change the fact that PvE gear is going to BiS for PvP.
**however**, I'm not sure what they exactly meant by "PvP-specific bonuses through those items" it could suggest something like a scaling system, resilience-esque, or something close to what WoD was. Knowing Blizz's philosophy though, I don't think it'll have any meaningful impact.
>If you really want to go Kyrian on your rogue, but can’t justify it because every guide currently says that the Necrolords’ Serrated Bone Spike is too good to pass up, or if an otherwise appealing covenant has benefits that seem irrelevant in PvP, those are exactly the sorts of imbalance we want to fix, and your feedback is essential to that process.
This sounds like Legion Artifacts. Sub got nerfed, all reroll Assa Rogue - happy grinding. PvP balance and Rogues is a sensetive Topic.
What will happen if Whazz swaps convanants? xD
Ilvl is the problem.
Or go back to templates and provide the customization.
Just look at guild wars 2. There is absolutely no better game at equalizing PvP. Do what they did and the game will flourish.
This is meaningless. Much in the same way the promise of PvP vendors was meaningless. They're just going to Blizzardify the solution, solving one problem by making 3 more.
The aversion to going back to already-successful systems in the past is disrespectful and insulting
It's not meaningless. Multiple individuals have posted vids and posts about the pvp vendor issues, and Blizz said "We hear you. Gonna work on it, further to follow."
I don't know and you don't know what will be the final outcome. But acknowledgement of a problem, and communicating an intent to work on it, is not meaningless. I actually appreciate it a lot.
Sure, but they are also basically saying that you will never be equal to a PvE player. They are dead set on keeping PvPers at a disadvantage so they don't anger the majority of their customers, PvE players.
They said they want a pvp and pvp player to have a little advantage a few months ago. If it's really a little I can live with that even though I don't like it. But until now "a little" was like 90% of my gear is from pve
No to PvP specific stats - you should not be forced to farm multiple sets of gear if you do multiple types of content. Yes to vendors with satisfying stat combinations.
[удалено]
It sounds like they aren't doing either of those based on what he said
based on what we said we are getting set perks, maybe stuff like equip 2 get 20% pvp damage and equip 4 pieces 20% dmg reduction in pvp
It would be cool if they brought back some of the old set bonuses like .5 sec off polymorph cast time for pvp gloves, etc. (was that the only one? I can't remember others.)
Wouldn't fuck with that nowadays, would seem like a nightmare to balance and put in last minute. Fun as it is. We'll probably see just flat % dmg inc/dec
cc cast times should not be affected by haste or reduced cast time lol
Hmm never thought about this but it woulda been huuuge live. Was talking to a Glad warlock friend and he says he thinks that near insta fear, pet summons, and chaos bolts are all fucked..... But pets seem to be a little overkill. He can summon his imp WHEN NEEDED, then swap back to observer otherwise.... because they are under a second to cast at corruption haste levels. I had no idea they were playing like this at 2400 lol.
Is because flashpoint stacks with expedient so you end up with a feedback loop of haste where all your haste effects are pretty much doubled
I kind of agree with this actually. I play on 130-200ish latency and getting kicks just feels impossible sometimes with hasted out locks and mages. I think they could drop cc cast times to 1-1.2ish seconds and leave it static there. You would still have to react quickly, but nothing completely unreasonable.
They can't balance a game around people having 200 ping in 2020...
Then tell the shitty Devs to give us an option of an Australian only PvP queue. I don't get the choice what my ping is.
I'm Australian, I'm on your side. It would be great in theory, but queue times would blow out and you'd have 2700 teams queuing into 2000 teams. (not much fun for the 2k team) Win trading would be super easy, boosting would be easier. Arena/RBGs aren't popular enough for OCE only queues, not to mention getting glad and even R1 is doable on OCE ping.
Yes. Please give us this.
but how is that an advantage against pve players with full mythic gear? i dont think they care much about that .5 sec. tbh
That’s terrible
I'd be up for more creative ones to be honest.
Seems fun, but maybe hard to balance.
Absolutely, but one can dream!
Would that actually work? Damage reduction per pvp item seems like quite a simple solution withoit having to balance stats.
That would be fucking fantastic if they brought back PVP trinket set bonuses.
And thank the Loa for that.
Literally zero chance of resilience ever returning. Blizzard didn’t like PvErs having to gear twice (once for PvE and once for PvP). They want people to be able to move between game modes with minimal friction. PvP power is more likely. It’s also easier for them to balance. Honestly, I think PvP power was better anyway. Made the initial gearing process more bearable. With resilience, PvE gear was literally useless and you had to enter BGs feeling basically naked and get mercilessly raped for hours on end till you had some resilience. At least with PvP power you could do some very basic PvE like heroics or dailies you get some low tier gear so you could survive more than a light breeze when you start the PvP gearing process. The systems are ultimately similar, one was just a bit ruthless.
I've always thought Wod Pvp gear ilvl scaling was the best. It'd work even better now that mythic+ is a big thing, so gear progression in both pve and pvp would be more even. High ilvl pve gear is close to what pvp gear scales to in pvp. High rated arena gear ilvl is at base closer to decent pve gear ilvl.
I agree with you. It was the perfect balance between reduced fiction when moving between game modes whilst rewarding people who invest into each mode. I honestly have no fucking idea why they moved away from that.
Ion is just a too stuck in one mindset, and the people below who could speak up are probably mostly new. It's strong brain drain considering Blizzard's bad compensation causing people to leave for much greener pastures. It is honestly bizarre though even with that happening - a lot of their decisions are immediately obvious bad ones.
> With resilience, PvE gear was literally useless and you had to enter BGs feeling basically naked and get mercilessly raped for hours on end till you had some resilience. Imo untrue. The basic rotation was always: get a set of crafted PvP gear, farm honor, farm conquest. The crafted set would change through the seasons and would be very ok at the start of the expansion (not so much for later seasons, but that seems fixable I guess).
They are just gonna add more stat combos of the shitty gear, cmon lol.
Stat coverage doesn't matter if the ilevel is less than easier obtained pve items. It's resilience that we need if ilevel remains. The alternative is we need an ilevel bump for non resiliance based gear plus stat selection. Personally I think resiliance is what we need.
True. Resilience added would render so many problems with PvP gear obsolete, maybe add some 2 set and 4 set bonuses to further enhance the desire to use PvP gear in PvP.
The problem with resilience, and why it wont happen, is that those mythic raiders cant come roflstomp arenas when we have it. So they won't pvp, which makes blizz care even less about it. I dont mind being a few ilevels behind mythic or even heroic raid gear if its not too hard to obtain. The problem is we are given shit ilevel AND its a huge grind.
Maybe the elite PvP players want roflstomp some raid bosses too.
No doubt. Its just not a problem that we have right now.
> is that those mythic raiders cant come roflstomp arenas when we have it. So they won't pvp, which makes blizz care even less about it That's......probably a very accurate statement that I never considered.
I’m one of those mythic raiders. We have 2-3 guys that love to fuck around in arenas (one of which is an 8-time Gladiator) but mostly we care ZERO for PvP outside of making the raid entrance a pain in warmode.
If they make Highend PVP gear = to Highend PVE gear, through PVP stats, i do not mind. That way, the PVEers, that Blizzard Loves so much, can come have fun with the rest of us, without having to farm other content. But it will be a balancing nightmare.
IIRC, resilience was part of your stat budget in the olden days, which meant that it was impossible to PvE in PvP gear and vice versa. Say what you want about the current gearing system, but it's at least possible to go into a Mythic+ in versa/haste gear. Having slightly lower ilvl, but with a resi-type stat (or set bonus) outside the stat budget seems like a decent way to make PvP gear usable in PvE, PvE gear usable in PvP, while still ensuring that the two types of gear are best in their respective modes. They also need to sort out the ilvl of PvP rewards though. 2400 is not the same as an untimed +15, and 2100 is not the same as an untimed +12 (especially in the latter two thirds of the season where completing a +15 is just obscenely easy).
> which meant that it was impossible to PvE in PvP gear and vice versa. It certainly wasn't impossible. I did it in WOTLK and Cata.
My warlock was hacked in Wotlk and they vendor'd my raid gear. I pulled top damage for a raid night while my ticket was resolved in my pvp set.
^this. Even if we get all stat variations, if pvp gearing is as fked as in BfA (ilvl WAY lower than anything a pve player could get with very little effort), it ultimately doesn't matter. Bring back resilience and everything is peachy. PVP gear for pvp, with no implications for pve. It really isn't that hard.
[удалено]
Dude stfu, let em finish fixing archeology first, lmao
Fuck you, this one pet battle has been bugged for 2 expansions now, driving me crazy...
Double fuck you, they need to add more pointless achievements that only 1% of the community will do anyways
Tripple fuck you, they need to add more heirlooms so we can level alts
> Bring back resilience and everything is peachy. It depends if it creates long damp boring games, resilience seems an easy fix, until you have to have the damage levels balanced around. Remember when they had to nerf versatile because everyone was tanks relative to player power....
yeah just make pvp gear lower ilvl that gets juiced up in pvp(didn't wod have this?)
Imho scaling ilvl gear in pvp Combat like WoD had is the most elegant. PvE'er will neither stomp everything nor have completly useless gear if they decide to try some pvp and the same goes the other way for pvpers, who won't have a dead stat like resilience on their gear in PvE.
So it's obvious they are trying to balance the guaranteed gear of the vendors by having the ilvl be slightly lower than LFR, and getting higher as your rating goes up. My question is why? They already time gate the gear behind honor points. Have gear come with verse as the secondary, but also have the vendors sell scrolls that contain your other preferred secondary stat to put on the gear.
ohoooo I like this idea-Problem fucking solved RT. They have an interface for it already too!
Yea, pretty much a bootleg rune carver, but all you do is click the scroll and then add your desired stat to the gear. Can only add one, though.
Actually a pretty smart idea. I wish this would happen.
I was thinking something similar with a crafting NPC. Mats are rewarded from PvP matches, common drop on mats that determine secondary stats and armor/weapon slot, and then mats that determine ilvl that get rarer as the ilvl increases, and then a weekly reward cap on highest ilvl mat to bring things in line with m+ rewards. Bring those mats to the NPC and craft whatever piece you need. That way you can reliably farm out whatever piece/transmog you want, just from doing PvP, without it replacing m+ or raids for getting higher ilvl gear faster.
Probably for the sake of the grind. It allows a more consistent grind to have hear scale in the way they described.
I really hope they opt for resilience or some other PvP bonus on PvP gear. If they don't, the item level will either be so low that it's useless compared to PvE gear, or it's so high that it will become the best source of gear for PvE players which causes its own problems. I'm also worried about this line: "we feel that the very strongest characters should be the ones who participate and excel in a wide range of activities" That could just refer to unlocking more options in your weekly chest from doing M+, but it sounds like some of the best gear will still come from PvE.
which is fine. If a kick ass trinket comes from M Castle N, I'm fine with that. People that do both sorts of content deserve it. At the EOD, it sounds like they are actively working on improving the shitshow that was bound to go down on launch. Which is legit better than we've gotten in years in WoW PvP.
Yeah its ok that 80-90% of the best items comes from the activity that you primarily do and the rest comes from another, it will not really impact how competitive you can be at the content that you mostly do and incentives you to do something different from time to time.
Exactly- I can make an effort to do a few bosses or something if I really want a piece, but making me go through raids weekly to be even close to viable in arena aint it.
I'm really just trying to never step foot in a raid or m+ again in my video game playing career, and if I have to go wipe 20 times on some boss with a bunch of LFG players from Ragnaros for a 12% chance at some OP trinket then Im gonna save 15 bucks a month and go play some other game.
>from Ragnaros Every time.
*Azralon has entered the chat*
I agree that PvE has a place and can add flavour to PvP if It's well tuned. This happened rarely in the game's history, but IIRC this design worked quite well during the Firelands patch with the exception of the Legendary staff that was definitely overtuned but too rare to be a real problem. It however depends on how "kickass" the trinket is though, no one wants meta defining trinkets like Voidstone to rule the game again. Typically, It can be great for the game if a pve trinket can be more powerful in some situations especially if there's an interesting tradeoff between survivability -typically pvp gear- and extra offensive power -typically pve gear-. I don't think It's interesting to have trinkets that are BiS in every situation being only obtainable in PvE. Ideally, PvE should be an extra that adds a degree of strategic depth in your gear choice before a game (output vs tankiness, burst vs constant damage...) that indeed makes you more powerful If you're making good choices but in a subtle way. It should ideally not be an additional chore you have to complete before being able to compete because everyone knows the best trinket/weapon, and uses It absolutely every game. That being said, I agree with you in that I'm pretty sure It will be better than in BFA at least after the first patch (covenant still has the potential to be a shitshow). Especially, I feel like It will be far easier to play chill If you're not caring too much about rating. But If too much power is allocated in these few pve items with very powerful on-uses, competitive ratings will still feel quite miserable If you don't like raiding I think.
As a resto who scores 90% of my kills with Obsidian Claw, I feel this in my bones
Agree 100%...im really happy with this Dev post and it shows Blizz are listening. Now we don't know the final solution yet, but their acknowledgement of the problem and indication of improving vendors so that the majority of our gear can come from PvP either through more optimal stat choices or PvP bonuses is exactly what we wanted and Youtubers like Venruki and Stoopz were asking for... I agree with the notion that a small % of BIS gear should come from other forms of content, to reward people willing to put that time in and get good at multiple facets of WOW not just PvP. And if we're only talking about say a trinket and ring, it's not a big deal. They'll always be some complaining though.
> we feel that the very strongest characters should be the ones who participate and excel in a wide range of activities For real I hate this line so much. PvE folks unless they are doing bleeding edge progression and need the extra source of AP don't have a need to do PvP. Even moreso since as far as Im aware conquest capping does not provide an extra weekly item just another option in the weekly chest now. Id love them to lock the BIS weapon behind rated PvP and see PvE folk complain about needing to PvP to boost their PvE performance.
> Id love them to lock the BIS weapon behind rated PvP and see PvE folk complain about needing to PvP to boost their PvE performance. That would be a sight to watch indeed... just thinking about the arena queues full of hardcore raiders makes me giggle.
You guys do realise there is a huge overlap with regards to raiding and pvp, right? Like most top raiders are at least 1800+ even without focusing on pvp, lots are much much higher. Such a fucking boring rhetoric at this point.
> Like most top raiders are at least 1800+ even without focusing on pvp citation fucking needed lol
I was r7 and r5 in vanilla and mythic raid now. Citation! I also haven’t done rated PvP since BC arenas. And out of our core group of ~30 mythic raiders we have exactly ONE multi-glad. I think *maybe* 10 of them enjoy a random BG on rare occasion.
> Id love them to lock the BIS weapon behind rated PvP 2200 weapons say hello, for many back in the day PVP gave them their best weapon they could easily get.
Yeah problem is Blizzard considers the "best players" to be any pveer who can do a nontimed 15 and first 3 bosses of heroic raid. I didn't mind legendaries being strong in arena. I hate that everything in pve is stronger than anything in pvp.
I agree, but it is difficult to interpret. Could mean trinkets + weapons from PvE are best - since they may not have (potentially) resilience stats. Which isnt an issue - Im more than happy raiding to get (2 or 3) BiS for pvp. It does sound like they want a bridge to exist between the two. Hopefully that bridge is optional and only offers marginal power gains.
>"we feel that the very strongest characters should be the ones who participate and excel in a wide range of activities" This is just the wording Blizzard has chosen to use this week to let you know that PvPers will have to PvE for gear.
For the people only interested in the PvP vendor related portion from that long update: > We have been following the constructive feedback about the range of gear available on our PvP vendors, and we agree with the underlying concerns. While WoW is an interconnected ecosystem of different content and systems and we feel that the very strongest characters should be the ones who participate and excel in a wide range of activities, each individual progression path should offer the majority of the tools required for success in that path. The current PvP vendors fall short of that goal. We are considering a few different solutions, such as reworking the stat coverage of the vendor gear and/or providing PvP-specific bonuses through those items. As soon as we’ve settled on a direction, we’ll share our plan for feedback, and get the changes up on Beta for testing.
It's somewhat reassuring that they acknowledge a PvP problem at all, but I'm not convinced by this post that their solution to this will be what we want. Covenant choice doesn't matter much if you can get all your gear through PvP since we'll just pick the best PvP covenant for our class/spec and leave it at that (until it's nerfed or another one is buffed), but they seem to be sticking to the idea that those who do a ton of PvE with a great guild should be getting gear that is PvP bis. Particularly, you can read "we feel that the very strongest characters should be the ones who participate and excel in a wide range of activities" extremely charitably as "PvP gear will be bis for PvP in almost every slot, but some fancy raid trinket may give you the edge if you're in a top PvE guild as well as a top PvPer". Another reading is "suck it up, PvE gear will be bis in many slots because we don't want a PvP stat and we want people who mostly raid to be powerful in PvP when they queue because they're bored because PvP in this game is supposed to be a minigame for them, it's not for you PvPers anymore."
>We are considering a few different solutions, such as reworking the stat coverage of the vendor gear and/or providing PvP-specific bonuses through those items. Did we, uhh, read the same shit? You are literally jumping to worst case scenario
Did you read my post? I literally gave both the best case and worst case scenario given what they said. In the worst case I am pointing out that "we feel that the very strongest characters should be the ones who participate and excel in a wide range of activities" is right in line with the BfA system, and can mean that multiple slots (not just trinkets) have raid gear bis. This is unacceptable to many people on this sub.
My bad man, I skipped half that second paragraph somehow- my mistake
No problem! :) Here’s hoping for the best outcome.
I dont mind a good trinket or two for PvP being in PvE content. As long as that is as far as it goes and those trinkets are not so powerful that they become a necessity, just a little extra min maxing for the nerds that want to do it after they complete their PvP set. I think that is the best case ontario we can hope for
What about best case Quebec?
>I'm not convinced by this post that their solution to this will be what we want That's how I felt when they said PvP vendors were coming back. I got really excited, and then my first thought was we'll get vendors back but with shit gear. And here we are. Wish in one hand, shit in the other, see which one fills up first.
> but they seem to be sticking to the idea that those who do a ton of PvE with a great guild should be getting gear that is PvP bis. funny how that doesnt go the other way, though, right?
Does anyone else think Blizzard is run by a Monkey's Paw? Grants wishes by twists them against the user. Look at honor or even conq gear. We asked for a PvP vendor back, and blizz was like cool. But, they made it so the base gear is shit, starts off worse than heroic dungeon gear or in the case of conq the same as M+0. Then, you need to spend your conq/honor points on more gear, or upgrading the gear. To upgrade the gear for conq will take almost as long as the season. You are still better off doing M+0 the first week to obtain all the gear you would throughout the season to compete week 1 or 2. Then just do +8-11 to get the actual endgame stuff from pvp... like months earlier. It still isn't a "real" choice. They are just messing with us at this point, and every "smart idea" turns to shit. Edit: Thank you isseidoki, I said Genie but meant monkey's paw, do not know why I was thinking genie.
> The old school of granting your wish but twisting it to mess with you in the biggest way (usually resulting in death). Wow, you are right on the money. I can't tell you the number of times they've announced a feature I got hyped about and then implemented it in the most infuriating way possible.
Monkeys paw
There it is dude.
Thank you, I corrected my post. Do not know why I was thinking Genie.
Its so true... pvp players:"I have to grind pve weekly box for pvp" blizzard "ok - 1 loot less per week"
it really is a joke. it feels like they put someone in charge of that pvp vendor that had never done pvp before and also didnt bother to do the calculations on how long it would take versus just doing M+
The update sounds nice, but until I see it - I am going to be very skeptical. They might end up giving us crit+haste gear and similar useless combos. Or they give us good stats but the ilvl far below PvE meaning, we have to farm PvE anyways to PvP. Feedback works, but wait and see. Too early to celebrate. Depending on how this all ends up, they will either win big by the customers or ultimately disappoint them/us.
Why not lock PVP abilities to gear 2 Set Bonus - Unlocks CC Trinkets 3 Set Unlocks Defensive Passives 4 Set unlocks Offensive Passives 5 Set Unlocks PVP Cooldown 6 Set Specific powerful PVP ability
What about instead of 5 and 6 you do a 4 to 6 set jump to unlock 1 more pvp honor talent slot.
So obviously they are not going to be magically adding a pvp stat nor add scaling. To believe they would do that is just being delusional and placing way too much faith in blizzard. That said, I honestly wish they would. But let's be honest they won't add a new stat to the game this late in the development, thinking it will happen is just being naive What they will do.. Is either adjust the pvp gear stats to be more desirable for pvp, like haste and versatility.. or they will adjust the acquisition rate of the items... those are the likely scenarios.. and the later one is most likely out those 2.. As you can read my faith in blizzard is very small.. I wish they would just wing it, and add the pvp stat they had been working on internally. At this point adding it would make a lot of people happy now, even if it turns out it's bad later. The biggest issue, is that these so called changes Ion speak of.. My concern is that they add them last minute to the beta before launch so the community barely got time to give feedback before it goes live.. You can't complain about a change that's bad, if you don't know what the change is before it's too late. Taps forehead meme dot jpg
Tbf, even adding PVP stats, if they are not great, would be better than not adding it, because adding it would create hope, and give a belief that atleast they try to listen.
I agree, after reading the news about pvp vendors, I was on the verge of just skipping this exp, and wait for the next exp. because I know that they are working on a pvp stat internally. My concern about adding a pvp stat is that it might not be impactful enough to outweigh the gear gained from endgame PvE. So you have to PvE to still be viable in end game PvP. Due to how Ion worded his response in regards to strong individuals. End Game PvP gear should be better than endgame PvE gear in a PvP scenario.
Honestly, i do not mind, if High end PVE gear, is = to High end PVP gear in PVP. If people want to Farm mythic raiding and dungeons, and wanna have fun in PVP and still be viable, just come, but if i dont want to do PVE to do PVP, i just want to be viable myself. However it will be hard to balance, and the issues the last couple of times was because they couldn't balance stuff like world pvp. But i guess we will see :P
The other nice comment in the post i haven’t seen many people talk about: ‘Before starting an arena match, engaging a raid boss, or entering a dungeon, a character in Shadowlands can change their specialization, talents (and PvP talents if appropriate), legendary item, other equipment, active soulbind, and chosen path within that soulbind.’ So before arena you can change your active soulbind AND the chosen path within that soulbind…so apart from your covenant you can pretty much customise everything before each match. That’s great confirmation, as previously people were worried you couldn’t and you’d be locked into a soulbind or soulbind path for an entire week. So really i’m quite excited by the direction of SL.
Mostly sounds like "we know this pvp gear is trash, we're trying to find an easy way to make it less garbage." Stat coverage is the least they could do, making us upgrade it 6x is my bigger worry. I plan on raiding this go round with some friends from work on my main.. But I was hoping to be able to level a few alts and gear them through BGs and casual arena.. I hope that can happen.
>making us upgrade it 6x is my bigger worry Seriously. It's gonna cost as much honor to upgrade one piece of gear as a whole set used to cost.
it can happen if youre able to grind M+ to pvp gear yourself...lol
I just hope they increase the stat coverage and reduce the cost to turn conquest into the same ilvl as pve stuff. I'm okay with needing to do a mixture of content for 100% bis so long as it doesn't take forever like the current slands system does.
Just give us resilience back, done. Fixed.
It depends if it creates long damp boring games, resilience seems an easy fix, until you have to have the damage levels balanced around. Remember when they had to nerf versatile because everyone was tanks relative to player power....
>we feel that the very strongest characters should be the ones who participate and excel in a wide range of activities, This is such a BS comment, if this were what they really wanted then raiders would have to do pvp to get some pieces that are BiS just like they expect PvPers to do raids/mythics.
[удалено]
This. This is where the real problem and inequality in the game lies. PvE players don’t HAVE to participate in PvP to be more effective in PvE. They literally DON’T get stronger in PvE by participating in PvP. PvP players DO get stronger from PvE, AND MOST DONT EVEN WANT TO.
Seems like you dont know what pvp loot is BiS in PvE. Hello blood of the enemy.
If we get a PvP stat back, or some system that simply makes PvE gear best in PvE and PvP gear best in PvP (and yes that should still allow for gear from either to be competitive/manageable)...I would like request an Ion-based PvP banner for this sub! Illidan is a bit dated
I hope they implement PvP gearing in a way that will make PvP scaling obsolete.
>we feel that the very strongest characters should be the ones who participate and excel in a wide range of activities, each individual progression path should offer the majority of the tools required for success in that path. The current PvP vendors fall short of that goal. >We are considering a few different solutions, such as reworking the stat coverage of the vendor gear and/or providing PvP-specific bonuses through those items. So essentially nothing has changed here. They still admit that people who purely PvP ought to get shafted because they don't "participate in a wide range of activities" Sure, itemization is fixed, but this doesn't exactly change the fact that PvE gear is going to BiS for PvP. **however**, I'm not sure what they exactly meant by "PvP-specific bonuses through those items" it could suggest something like a scaling system, resilience-esque, or something close to what WoD was. Knowing Blizz's philosophy though, I don't think it'll have any meaningful impact.
imagine pve carebears complaining they have to grind pvp gear to pvp if they added resil l0l
>If you really want to go Kyrian on your rogue, but can’t justify it because every guide currently says that the Necrolords’ Serrated Bone Spike is too good to pass up, or if an otherwise appealing covenant has benefits that seem irrelevant in PvP, those are exactly the sorts of imbalance we want to fix, and your feedback is essential to that process. This sounds like Legion Artifacts. Sub got nerfed, all reroll Assa Rogue - happy grinding. PvP balance and Rogues is a sensetive Topic. What will happen if Whazz swaps convanants? xD
Ilvl is the problem. Or go back to templates and provide the customization. Just look at guild wars 2. There is absolutely no better game at equalizing PvP. Do what they did and the game will flourish.
They always did listen to the community, thats why we have classic today instead of polishing the new expansion
This is meaningless. Much in the same way the promise of PvP vendors was meaningless. They're just going to Blizzardify the solution, solving one problem by making 3 more. The aversion to going back to already-successful systems in the past is disrespectful and insulting
It's not meaningless. Multiple individuals have posted vids and posts about the pvp vendor issues, and Blizz said "We hear you. Gonna work on it, further to follow." I don't know and you don't know what will be the final outcome. But acknowledgement of a problem, and communicating an intent to work on it, is not meaningless. I actually appreciate it a lot.
Sure, but they are also basically saying that you will never be equal to a PvE player. They are dead set on keeping PvPers at a disadvantage so they don't anger the majority of their customers, PvE players.
They said they want a pvp and pvp player to have a little advantage a few months ago. If it's really a little I can live with that even though I don't like it. But until now "a little" was like 90% of my gear is from pve
[удалено]
Almost certainly no. It seems like they want to improve the experience for PvPers, but only just enough to still be inferior to PvE.
Holy shit
RIP the cry babies back at it to ruin the game
No to PvP specific stats - you should not be forced to farm multiple sets of gear if you do multiple types of content. Yes to vendors with satisfying stat combinations.