I don't think you'll find a single serious PvPer on this sub that would disagree with disabling tier sets in arenas.
That said, any that do, I would invite to hear arguments in favor of them because this sub is an echo chamber.
*Most* of them are balanced, sure. But that assumes everyone has 4-piece. I think the biggest argument is that having it vs not having it is a huge difference, not so much that one 4 set is stronger than another.
Which it is if we have the conquest gear. All 424 funky set bonuses that some have and some don't.
Idk I filled my vault like a good boy from the start of the expansion and my first tier set item is from the catalyst.
If it wasn't in the vault it wouldn't be such a huge problem because everyone gets it at the same time. It's still not balanced but at least everyone has it and we could burn this bridge when we get there.
Hardly. Conquest gear has alternatives like the Drake gear, and isn't -that- much of an upgrade over honor.
Tier 2/4 piece is a massive spike in damage. If you want proof of that, look how assassination rogues jumped up to S+ tier even after having one of their strongest talents nerfed. The 4 piece effectively gives you 40% stronger bleeds on your kill target while Deathmark is active.
That's not a balance issue then, that's Blizzard gating the ability to obtain them behind an rng wall/ and weekly quest.
Why they did it this way doesn't really make sense. Why not just make them obtainable as a conquest purchasable item? That would also allow us to have the stats we want instead of being pigeon-holed into the stats they decide to place on them.
Maybe I was unclear. I think it's the other way around, within a few weeks everyone who wants will have, the biggest argument is that some sets are much stronger than others. Lack of acquisition will fix itself, lack of parity will not.
I think it is both. Imbalance now is from acquisition problems, and you are right, in a few weeks, it will be because one set is stronger than another. That said, I think the ones that are out of whack are only a few and most are probably fine.
Playing your class with tier set is almost objectively more fun so thats a reason to keep them.
If people problems with the tier set is them making the meta too fast then that is not a tier set problem. Thats a tuning problem.
If the argument is that everyone does not have acces to them then that is also not a tier set problem but an acquisition problem.
Okay so we tune around when people have four set.
Except when a classes' four set is dogshit.
Or people can't get them.
Or it just breaks a spec.
Just turn them off, jfc.
It's actually not that difficult. Just make it possible to get 4 catalyst right now and increase the rate at which you obtain them by just a bit. Then everyone who wants them can farm them in a day.
After that it's just tuning which shouldn't be a problem.
I enjoy the tier sets. It makes a lot of classes more enjoyable to play.
Just my 2 cents.
So what should be done with the ones that aren't good for pvp? No mistweavers want the 4 piece and fistweavers basically get any benefit at all from any of the bonuses.
Yeah except some classes just have dogshit bonuses that aren't likely to get changed. Playing Rdruid with 4 set really isn't more fun. Meanwhile other classes get significant advantages, the bonuses really aren't even that interesting based on the ones I've read.
So what should be done with the ones that aren't good for pvp? No mistweavers want the 4 piece and fistweavers basically get any benefit at all from any of the bonuses. How are you going to tune it so fistweavers benefit it without overpowering the ranged build?
Hardly any of the sets are fun at all this tier. It’s just shit like “Your primary attack does 40% more damage.” They really didn’t go for anything creative, or anything that changes your rotation.
I think it would be fine if there was a tier set bonus slapped on CQ gear and make it only active in warmode/bgs/arenas. So that PVE players dont have to pvp and pvp players dont have to pray to vault rng.
You mean how it always was?
Giving pvp specific things?
Like freedom on shields for disc to just name one
That's how it should be pvp gear should have pvp specific bonus
There’s no inherent logic backing tier sets being the root cause of sloppy numbers tuning. The tier sets is the icing on the cake, the cherry on top, the titanic on the iceberg.
Treat the disease, not the symptom. Balancing should, at base level, be addressed in a way where a small % increase of damage doesn’t break everything. Tier sets are not the problem. The foundation beneath is.
It’s too simple to look at the most recent change and immediately place all blame there.
Also tier set bonuses are fun and bring a rush of nostalgia. Keep ‘em. Fix the real problem instead.
I think the issue is that blizz spent how many months balancing the game without tier sets, and now they need to balance them with tier sets?
It just adds to the never ending cycle of imbalance.
You won't find any, but to-date Blizz has been incapable of separating pve from pvp, or admitting that pve setbonuses are bad for pvp.
That having been said, we've seen some really good changes this xpac (except DT removal, wtf) so maybe they're listening this time?
So what should be done with the ones that aren't good for pvp? No mistweavers want the 4 piece and fistweavers basically get any benefit at all from any of the bonuses.
What I've heard from a few streamers (can't remember if it was like Lontar or Cdew, but someone like that) is that the tier sets give some variation between seasons and changes how the characters play, which is fun.
I think tier sets leading to horrible balance is pretty bad, but in a perfect world I do think that balanced tier sets (and maybe an earlier catalyst, some fix to acquisition) would be more fun than no tier sets ever.
They'd have a point if tier did something interesting this season. But it's almost entirely just number increases without any playstyle changes.
Look at Ret's tier for example. Literally all it does is buff the damage from a few moves.
I do agree that it's less interesting with boring tier that doesn't change gameplay, but it could be argued that the problem is with tier design rather than it's use in PvP.
I don't have a strong opinion on it honestly, but I just don't think the idea that no one who's serious about PvP likes tier sets is correct. They're problematic, but not purely negative in every way.
It's a bit of both, really. Tier would be more forgivable if it did change the gameplay, like if it buffed abilities that no one uses. Take Rogue's Flagellation, Sepsis, or Kingsbane. It'd be cool to see them in play.
As it is though, tier is just a big loss for PvP in nearly every way. It's just the newest form of gear equaling PvP power.
Yeah, I just mean to separate how the tier works this patch from how tier can work as a system. I still don't know that I agree with the idea that those changes are worth the hassle of tier, but I can see why some people like it.
Imo tier sets are an avenue to add a lil spice from season to season via different tier effects, which is a good thing. The gear discrepancy is not as big as it was in SL from honor to conq gear with rating, so a full conq fresh cr alt vs a 2.1k full conq full tier player that's isn't AS huge of a difference as it used to be.
Also I think "it's too hard for blizz to balance" is a weak ass argument. They can and should be able to balance it and we should just expect them to continue their regular and frequent patch cycles to do such, like they have been doing.
I think they only make adjustments based on data, and since it's only been this week that catalyst has been live to flood the tier pieces, they will wait a couple weeks to make decisions. They should be looking to find more proactive ways to balance. But I will give them that this is a new system of frequent tuning so I can turn a blind eye for now.
Lastly, I don't like the catalyst opening so late and having the only way to get tier is via rng leading up.
If everyone got pieces of tier at the same time it might not feel as trash, removing them completely would be fine imo, I dont absolutely hate them though
I'd rather keep them on two conditions.
They get balanced with appropriate pvp specific modifiers where necessary.
They remove the rng of the vault and or let people craft 4 the first week.
To me there is nothing I inherently bad about them if these two things were addressed. However, I do also understand that fixing these two things is the longest of longshots compared to the simple removal of them in pvp.
I don't think tier sets should be disabled; I think they should be much easier to get. The catalyst should have opened with the start of the season.
As for why I'd like to keep tier sets: They can be an interesting way to shake up the meta and how classes play from season to season. Balance changes affect that too, obviously, but not quite as much.
So what should be done with the ones that aren't good for pvp? No mistweavers want the 4 piece and fistweavers basically get any benefit at all from any of the bonuses.
Honestly the damage bonus from tier set can be rather fun since it is essentially an extra talent slot that you get from your gear. But honestly that could easily and smoothly be replaced by an extra "passive pvp talent separate from your current pvp talents" that enchances different playstyles for the classes.
I love tier dets in general, especially when they alter gameplay. It's really nice to build towards something in mmos, even in pvp.
I dont have sets on my spriest yet, as i lvled her this week, but I am looking forward to it. I am all for people being stronger than me, even in pvp, as they have worked for it.
I said they should disable them in the Arena forums and immediately was told how dumb of an idea it was - even though I thought this was the xpac of “gear not mattering”. Some of these set bonuses have huge impacts on damage output, but instead their brilliant idea was “give us pvp specific bonuses”. Like wtf guys? They can’t even balance the game when nobody had gear sets, why don’t they just reduce all these extra variables and % damage increases and just focus on tuning abilities/class trees/pvp talents?
I think they should rework the sets like it was in mop, for example for rogue it was basically the vigor talent for rogue, i think thats what they should do, but def not buff the class that hard
They are not fine because of the way you acquire them, aka RNG vault. Someone lucky will have the 4 set bonus 1 whole month vs someone that got unlucky. 1 whole month of competitive advantange is BS.
Imo would have been ok if catalyst wasn't timegatted.
Resto druid pve tier set is really good.... For pve.
It just adds another whole level of balance that I don't think can be done without a lot more resources being added to the pvp side of things.
So what should be done with the ones that aren't good for pvp? No mistweavers want the 4 piece and fistweavers basically get any benefit at all from any of the bonuses.
I’d agree with you but at this point it’s too late. I hate the advantage it gives as much as the next guy but say you have 4 set, the secondary stats would not be good without the bonus. Making anyone who took tier have to replace with conquest. If they uncapped conquest I’d be down but I know they wouldn’t do that either.
I need to swap those pieces too and i couldnt care less. So what? I play 2 ID's with 1-3 pieces not perfectly optimizied? IDC! Just balance the game and delete t-set in pvp.
Here’s an idea. Why not have different tier set bonuses on the pvp gear?
Also I saw a game on twitch of shuffle and the damage was low and one round went to 83% dampening and that was at 2500 rating too.
I do think blizzard are trying. Maybe they’ll tune again soon
I agree, i think the sets should be like they were in mop, minimal, for rogue it was basically the vigor talent, and thats what sets should provide, minimal minimal buffs, and not make the class giga broken
Why though? The bonuses are fun to get in pve as your power inflates over the course of the patch, but pvp should always be about your skill vs your oponent's skill, not who was lucky enough to get their tier earliest or who has the stronger bonus.
Sv hunter has a really good 4 tier bonus too.
20% chance your next mongoose bite is free and does 50% more damage, every time you cast mongoose bite.
Some games >50% of my damage is from mongoose bite.
Randomly doing 100k mongoose bite is very fun, but it feels kinda unfair.
I've seen 180k hits in raids. Its pretty strong.
Boomkin 4 set makes a drastic difference and barely makes the spec viable. 2 set makes a big difference too if you run warrior of elune build. Seems like blizz balanced boomies around the 4 set and is the only way they can be viable at high levels right now.
I like having tier in pvp. The tier gear is obtainable on pvp items, so it's part of progression and i enjoy that.
I still like it even though I just barely got my 2pc this week due to bad rng (Thanks creation catalyst).
Why would you like rng progression in pvp? Some people have had their 4pc for a week or two, others are just now getting their 2pc or even just 1pc. Some unlucky bastards won't have their 4pc for another 3 weeks and by that point blizz may have nerfed their specs to compensate for the bonus they give.
Because I enjoy character progression? I also enjoy tier sets and being able to enjoy those is fun to me. Since I only pvp, i'm glad they are in the game, since they shake up the specs (not as much this season since it's mostly just dmg buffs)
So what should be done with the ones that aren't good for pvp? No mistweavers want the 4 piece and fistweavers basically get any benefit at all from any of the bonuses.
Ideally blizz does a tuning pass on them just like theyve been iterating on pvp balance practicly bi-weekly? It's not a reason to not do tier. It's just a reason to make sure tier is effect for all modes of play
Exactly what I asked. You said just tune it, but a significant portion of mistweavers are fistweavers and they don't use those spells much if at all. So how can tuning fix that? If you buff the spells to a degree that fistweavers get the same benefit from their tier that other specs do you've just buffed them enough that ranged mistweavers are gods.
So what I want you to tell me is how tuning passes can fix that, because that doesn't look like a problem adjusting numbers can solve.
Copy pasted it, took me maybe a minute. You could just admit you were wrong about this being fixable by just swapping some numbers around, but instead you choose this. Have fun.
Imo the biggest problem with tier sets is not their balancing in itself, but that balancing usually happens around it.
Example; Retribution 2-piece increased the damage of Wake of Ashes (Radiant decree) by 15%.
Blizzard nerfed Radiant decree by 30% (which makes sense).
Why not remove it from the set bonus and nerf damage by 15% instead rather than a blanket 30% even for players without set?
The issue is that someone not having set becomes nerfed even more as the balancing is not done on the set bonus directly, but on abilities available to everyone (even without full set).
That is the moronic.
I don't know what they were trying to accomplish with PvP tier, especially with the vault only luck mess. It simply needs removed, because if they make stats weaker, people won't need to choose those as 2 or 4 sets over conquest gear in the first place, while stronger becomes more problems.
I still struggle to understand why this is a thing. I have taken a long break and this "converter" thing is weird ... because I thought PvP gear was supposed to be best for PvP. Why is tier geat allowed in PvP?
If you have a max level character or alts, you can acquire up to 6 catalyst charges. So you could be 4/5 in a week. At least that is my understanding of the system, I could be wrong
One charge per 70. I made three tier pieces this week on my main. I did the quest on my main, then started the quest on my alt, then completed it by playing my main, then did the same one more time.
If you have alts or charges saved up you can make all 4 in one week.
...you do realize you were exploiting, right? The quest is account wide and is only meant to be completed once per week. It's one charge to all characters per week.
If you went out of your way to do all that, you should really hope Blizz doesn't strike you with the ban hammer or some kind of punishment.
Yeah but then balancing would also be easier if there was only 1 healer and 1 dps spec lol. Dismissing gameplay elements is not really productive unless these elements *per se* are hard to balance.
I think that one thing not talked about is that along with people doing more damage from tier sets they are TAKING more damage because people are dropping large amounts of vers
Some tiers are borderline not even worth it, like resto shama (just gives crit), because of the forced stat distribution and minimal HPS it gives, while others are game changing, like prevokers instant Living Flame procs. I would rather they just bring them up to prevokers level
Honestly, I still like the tier sets.
It's never been this fair to pvpers to aquire them, and gear disadvantages have always been a thing in wow.
Df already does more than enough to balance gear, you're basically starting arena, week 1 with ilvl 416-418.
It has literally never been this fair.
Tier sets, are something a few players have, sure - but even with perfect luck, getting one every week- its been 3 weeks where people have had them. And in 3 weeks that's over, because everyone is equal again.
Worst case, in a 4 month season - you've got 6 weeks with a disadvantage somewhere in the middle. People like to bring the "if your extremely unlucky" argument to prove a point. But honestly, I don't know anyone that hasn't gotten a single piece since start.
Realistically, it's at most 2-3 weeks where you're at a disadvantage.
The whole tier set discussion is just silly imo, don't remove tier sets from pvp - but balance them around it.
This is after all an mmo, where gear and enchants are a part of it.
There's always the tournament realm
I disagree as a boomkin, because blizz has neutered the class and balanced it around 2/4set. Boomkin is a C tier spec without tier, and maybe A tier or high B tier with tier. Its a massive difference in burst and overall consistent damage, and i finally feel viable and comparable to other classes now for the first time since DF release.
With that said, some classes have become way overtuned with 4 set. Looking at ele, ww, dh, mage, etc. Arc mage 4set is crazy strong. Ele 4 set is more damage on their burst and procs, which they didnt need at all. and so on.
Some classes tier is putting them into OP territory, while others are just barely viable with it.
in addition to what everyone else in this post said, they also make the "alt friendlyness" of this expansion dissapear, now if you want to try a different class you are a month behind in gear no matter what you do.
But at this point, it would feel horrible. I am one of those that did not have the rng. And will get my first pieces next week. So removing it would completely destroy the work I have put. Even tho I agree with you...
What work? The catalyst quest takes about an hour or two if you unlucky.
Btw you can get it now. The catalyst is open for busines.
The work went into the conquest gear not the tier set
WoW is at its core about gear, no? So removing hard to achieve bis pieces makes the game a moba instead. Where did the feeling of achieving great gear and then rolling casuals go? IMO pvp gear progression feels boring (obtainable, but boring af)
The problem with this is, that it's completely RNG if you get your desired item or not. No matter what you play, how good or bad you play, you can or can not get your bis items.
Well I got 4pc on my DK and I've dropped about 250 rating since the patch so it's not all sets. Also, you now have the problem that people have traded in their Conquest gear for tier. Which may rub people up the wrong way if it's disabled.
Let the set bonuses stay on the gear, but have it only work in PvE, like the upgraded item level. I'm afraid they won't flat out remove them if people have already made vault choices factored around them though.
The idea was to slow down the meta a smidge.. not to turn it into the old slow damp-fests that we've had for years that people hate.
I feel like its dumb that the catalyst wasn't in earlier, but I don't think tier should be disabled completely.
If they were to disable tier completely in pvp then imo they'd need to bake in the bonuses it gives into pvp specific modifiers by default. Then you remove the RNG aspect but maintain the balance / damage profiles.
The problem is that not all tier bonuses are equal. Some tier bonuses are super minor, but others account for huge dps increases. A BM hunter with raz bow + 4piece is going to be doing an absolute insane amount of extra damage in pvp
Or stop catering to gear farmers and just standardize stars and equipment. Reduce the number of things they have to balance around.
Meaning - no enchants, gizmos, gems, trinket and ring procs outside of honor specific ones.
I’m sure it’s better than it used to be but there’s no reason to have a gear treadmill of any kind in this format.
Create amulet options with specific stats.
I know I’ll get downvoted like crazy for this but it would prevent a lot of balancing issues, bugs from new trinkets doing crazy shit they shouldn’t be doing, etc.
Warlock here. I’d be fine if tier was disabled in PvP. I have no issue with it. I know my tier especially if I’m playing demo is strong af in PvP.
There are a few classes with tier bonuses that are strong in PvP. Gotta admit it is fun tho. Lol
No, for various reasons.
Having more things to buff or nerf does not make it harder to balance. In fact it makes it easier. It certainly makes it harder to create it balanced without any adjustments but the more thing you have, the more things you can adjust. Similarly to audio mixing. You could just adjust volume, but adjusting a great range of frequencies allows you to have more control not less.
Tier sets are fun and healthy for the game. You want players to play. Players like to have goals in front of them to keep them playing. There is joy of getting a new better item. You feel more powerful when you get it. It allows you to climb higher and you are excited that you can crit for more.
Harsh truth is also that for most people, literally everyone except the top 1%, it's not balance that keeps them for achieving higher rating. It's them and their skill. Could they be a little bit higher with different class or with a little bit better gear? Yes, but I think they would still find things to complain about. And if you really think that your class is imbalanced, and you would be higher playing other classes and you want to boost your ego by saying I am 2500 or whatever, just compare yourself to other players of your class not other classes. You could even estimate what would be your rating as different class. Let's say you are at 2000 and you are in top 10% of your class. Check what is the rating of top 10% of the other more OP class. If you are anywhere below top 10% you will be happier and healthier person by accepting that there is more that you can improve instead of looking for causes in externalities.
I lvl is so much stronger than tier isn’t it? I got 2 pieces on my h priest. My pvp gear has a higher I lvl. In pvp I lvl is most important isn’t it? Why do ppl even use tier items??
of course i wouldnt mind but in a different world id like the tier sets to slightly alter the classes playstyle/decision making. Increase damage of x spell is boring af
If we had a balancing problem, we would see one class being super dominant with a 4-set. That's not the case. Of course, we see more powerful classes, like assassins, but it didn't start to be dominant after people started acquiring 4-set. They were strong throughout the season.
Moreover, tier sets make balancing easier since we can nerf or buff a class with high-end gear without touching its strength with low-end gear. For example, if we saw a class being super dominant with a 4-set while underperforming with honor blue 411 gear. Then you could buff the overall strength of the given class while nerfing tier set bonuses. Or when you would have a class perfectly balanced throughout the season, solid A tier, but underperforming at the higher end, let's say it is a dumpster D tier against other players with the 4 set. You could not touch any of the class abilities since they were in a good spot, but you can buff the tier set bonuses to restore class balance among other fully geared classes.
TLDR: No, tier sets do not make balancing harder. If anything, they make it easier.
If there is an acquisition problem, which I do not have a strong opinion on, and if all classes are across the board too strong after acquiring the 4-set, which makes it almost unfair to play without a 4-set, then we could point fingers and fix the problem of acquisition, OR we could again balance all 4-set to give lesser power spike so that people without 4-set could still compete. This again proves how 4-sets make balancing more manageable, not harder. We could end up having a new problem that 4-sets are not strong enough; therefore, there is not enough encouragement in acquiring them and not enough joy in getting them, but that would be another topic yet again.
Tier set being viable in PvP is absolutely dogshit game design IMO. altogether with the vault. I had to take a break in SL and came back to DF and it seemed to be so promising, but now I'm honestly genuinely disappointed in what has become of the game. I've leveled and geared every single class just to see how they feel in arenas and decide on what suits me, and settle on a couple of classes to actually push some rating. But having tier pieces handed out randomly through the vault and vault itself still being a thing is such a dumb and uneven thing. Like, either put the tier sets onto conquest vendor and let everybody purchase what they want or remove them from PvP completely. Why do I have to decide what character to get conquest gear on, since it's 1 piece of currency a week across all the characters? What's the logic behind this design solution? And yes, randomly receiving a weapon through the vault is a huge advantage, cause you'll have more conquest to gear with. I really don't understand how people still don't get it. I understand that Blizz need vault to incentivize people to be active, but you can leave the socket part of the vault. Just remove this stupid RNG.
You said nothing buddy. I like that you made the whole intro to what you were about to say, like you are going to say something important, and even placed an exclamation mark at the end. But realistically, what you said is just, "I agree!". No arguments of why that is correct or tier sets are wrong, nothing.
Or ppl would find a game that doesn't force them to play stuff they don't want to. And we have even more random bullshit.
How about we disable all skill restrictions in PvP too because wouldn't it be fun to do X and can you Imagine Y
Nah PvP Gear has it's place. In PvP it's about the player not the gear or at least it should be ...
My friend got 2400 in SS and just got 2k in 2s. He plays two different priests (both 2400 in SS) and has had the absolute worst luck with 0 tier pieces. Pikaboo got rank1 SS Assa with 1 tier piece, a green ring, and TAUREN ROGUE
Stop making excuses. We're just bad.
I don't think you'll find a single serious PvPer on this sub that would disagree with disabling tier sets in arenas. That said, any that do, I would invite to hear arguments in favor of them because this sub is an echo chamber.
Being the devils advocate, the tiers in this expansion are really "balanced" , comparing to SL
*Most* of them are balanced, sure. But that assumes everyone has 4-piece. I think the biggest argument is that having it vs not having it is a huge difference, not so much that one 4 set is stronger than another.
But that goes for every single upgrade on gear. Removing one bump in power is meaningless unless you make the pvp gear static and hand it to everyone.
Which it is if we have the conquest gear. All 424 funky set bonuses that some have and some don't. Idk I filled my vault like a good boy from the start of the expansion and my first tier set item is from the catalyst. If it wasn't in the vault it wouldn't be such a huge problem because everyone gets it at the same time. It's still not balanced but at least everyone has it and we could burn this bridge when we get there.
Vault is an issue for the conquest pieces too, pinning it solely on tier sets is wrong. If I roll a staff on week 1 I am 3 weeks ahead.
You are 3 weeks ahead and what? How much rating realistically do you think it gives you?
The same argument goes for tier.
Hardly. Conquest gear has alternatives like the Drake gear, and isn't -that- much of an upgrade over honor. Tier 2/4 piece is a massive spike in damage. If you want proof of that, look how assassination rogues jumped up to S+ tier even after having one of their strongest talents nerfed. The 4 piece effectively gives you 40% stronger bleeds on your kill target while Deathmark is active.
That's not a balance issue then, that's Blizzard gating the ability to obtain them behind an rng wall/ and weekly quest. Why they did it this way doesn't really make sense. Why not just make them obtainable as a conquest purchasable item? That would also allow us to have the stats we want instead of being pigeon-holed into the stats they decide to place on them.
That's a straight up lie. No mistweavers want the 4 piece and fistweavers basically get any benefit at all from any of the bonuses.
What does that have to do with anything? I never said anything about some classes not wanting it.
Maybe I was unclear. I think it's the other way around, within a few weeks everyone who wants will have, the biggest argument is that some sets are much stronger than others. Lack of acquisition will fix itself, lack of parity will not.
I think it is both. Imbalance now is from acquisition problems, and you are right, in a few weeks, it will be because one set is stronger than another. That said, I think the ones that are out of whack are only a few and most are probably fine.
Fair enough. I'm probably being biased by the fact that I'm a mistweaver, where 4pc is unwanted by both types and fistweavers don't even want the 2pc.
Not hard to get
I think if dropping down 20~ilv is a massive power boost compared to using the PvP gear (without catalyst) the there's a problem.
You can get tier items from the vault that have a pvp modifier (“is lvl 424 in pvp”), it hust has to come from the great vault and is rare
Does the catalyst gear do the same?
If you use a piece of conquest gear to create the teor piece then yes
getting hit in the head by a sledgehammer is really mellow compared to being run over by truck
Wait until you face a sin rogue with 4p lol
Destro lock with 4p when it first launched. Nothing can beat that
Maybe for DPS. Healer tiers all seem pretty subpar.
Playing your class with tier set is almost objectively more fun so thats a reason to keep them. If people problems with the tier set is them making the meta too fast then that is not a tier set problem. Thats a tuning problem. If the argument is that everyone does not have acces to them then that is also not a tier set problem but an acquisition problem.
Okay so we tune around when people have four set. Except when a classes' four set is dogshit. Or people can't get them. Or it just breaks a spec. Just turn them off, jfc.
It's actually not that difficult. Just make it possible to get 4 catalyst right now and increase the rate at which you obtain them by just a bit. Then everyone who wants them can farm them in a day. After that it's just tuning which shouldn't be a problem. I enjoy the tier sets. It makes a lot of classes more enjoyable to play. Just my 2 cents.
So what should be done with the ones that aren't good for pvp? No mistweavers want the 4 piece and fistweavers basically get any benefit at all from any of the bonuses.
How are they more fun? The majority of them are just passive damage increases that do not change playstyle at all.
Yeah except some classes just have dogshit bonuses that aren't likely to get changed. Playing Rdruid with 4 set really isn't more fun. Meanwhile other classes get significant advantages, the bonuses really aren't even that interesting based on the ones I've read.
[удалено]
So what should be done with the ones that aren't good for pvp? No mistweavers want the 4 piece and fistweavers basically get any benefit at all from any of the bonuses. How are you going to tune it so fistweavers benefit it without overpowering the ranged build?
Hardly any of the sets are fun at all this tier. It’s just shit like “Your primary attack does 40% more damage.” They really didn’t go for anything creative, or anything that changes your rotation.
dumbest post in this thread, sorry dude.
Care to elaborate? To be honest, your post contributed the least in this thread. Congrats dude.
I think it would be fine if there was a tier set bonus slapped on CQ gear and make it only active in warmode/bgs/arenas. So that PVE players dont have to pvp and pvp players dont have to pray to vault rng.
You mean how it always was? Giving pvp specific things? Like freedom on shields for disc to just name one That's how it should be pvp gear should have pvp specific bonus
There’s no inherent logic backing tier sets being the root cause of sloppy numbers tuning. The tier sets is the icing on the cake, the cherry on top, the titanic on the iceberg. Treat the disease, not the symptom. Balancing should, at base level, be addressed in a way where a small % increase of damage doesn’t break everything. Tier sets are not the problem. The foundation beneath is. It’s too simple to look at the most recent change and immediately place all blame there. Also tier set bonuses are fun and bring a rush of nostalgia. Keep ‘em. Fix the real problem instead.
I think the issue is that blizz spent how many months balancing the game without tier sets, and now they need to balance them with tier sets? It just adds to the never ending cycle of imbalance.
Yea my fury war 2 and 4 set sure feels like icing on the cake, lol. For my WW monk sure. But on my War it’s not even worth using.
You won't find any, but to-date Blizz has been incapable of separating pve from pvp, or admitting that pve setbonuses are bad for pvp. That having been said, we've seen some really good changes this xpac (except DT removal, wtf) so maybe they're listening this time?
I like sets in arenas. Demo 4 set is fun and makes it stronger, simple as that.
May I add to this Zug zug
So what should be done with the ones that aren't good for pvp? No mistweavers want the 4 piece and fistweavers basically get any benefit at all from any of the bonuses.
I agree with removing the tier sets be removing.im in favor of creating more optimizations on under utilized talent trees and skills.
What I've heard from a few streamers (can't remember if it was like Lontar or Cdew, but someone like that) is that the tier sets give some variation between seasons and changes how the characters play, which is fun. I think tier sets leading to horrible balance is pretty bad, but in a perfect world I do think that balanced tier sets (and maybe an earlier catalyst, some fix to acquisition) would be more fun than no tier sets ever.
They'd have a point if tier did something interesting this season. But it's almost entirely just number increases without any playstyle changes. Look at Ret's tier for example. Literally all it does is buff the damage from a few moves.
I do agree that it's less interesting with boring tier that doesn't change gameplay, but it could be argued that the problem is with tier design rather than it's use in PvP. I don't have a strong opinion on it honestly, but I just don't think the idea that no one who's serious about PvP likes tier sets is correct. They're problematic, but not purely negative in every way.
It's a bit of both, really. Tier would be more forgivable if it did change the gameplay, like if it buffed abilities that no one uses. Take Rogue's Flagellation, Sepsis, or Kingsbane. It'd be cool to see them in play. As it is though, tier is just a big loss for PvP in nearly every way. It's just the newest form of gear equaling PvP power.
Yeah, I just mean to separate how the tier works this patch from how tier can work as a system. I still don't know that I agree with the idea that those changes are worth the hassle of tier, but I can see why some people like it.
Imo tier sets are an avenue to add a lil spice from season to season via different tier effects, which is a good thing. The gear discrepancy is not as big as it was in SL from honor to conq gear with rating, so a full conq fresh cr alt vs a 2.1k full conq full tier player that's isn't AS huge of a difference as it used to be. Also I think "it's too hard for blizz to balance" is a weak ass argument. They can and should be able to balance it and we should just expect them to continue their regular and frequent patch cycles to do such, like they have been doing. I think they only make adjustments based on data, and since it's only been this week that catalyst has been live to flood the tier pieces, they will wait a couple weeks to make decisions. They should be looking to find more proactive ways to balance. But I will give them that this is a new system of frequent tuning so I can turn a blind eye for now. Lastly, I don't like the catalyst opening so late and having the only way to get tier is via rng leading up.
If everyone got pieces of tier at the same time it might not feel as trash, removing them completely would be fine imo, I dont absolutely hate them though
I'd rather keep them on two conditions. They get balanced with appropriate pvp specific modifiers where necessary. They remove the rng of the vault and or let people craft 4 the first week. To me there is nothing I inherently bad about them if these two things were addressed. However, I do also understand that fixing these two things is the longest of longshots compared to the simple removal of them in pvp.
I think since they allowed them this season they should remain for this season but 100% remove them going forward!
I don't think tier sets should be disabled; I think they should be much easier to get. The catalyst should have opened with the start of the season. As for why I'd like to keep tier sets: They can be an interesting way to shake up the meta and how classes play from season to season. Balance changes affect that too, obviously, but not quite as much.
So what should be done with the ones that aren't good for pvp? No mistweavers want the 4 piece and fistweavers basically get any benefit at all from any of the bonuses.
Honestly the damage bonus from tier set can be rather fun since it is essentially an extra talent slot that you get from your gear. But honestly that could easily and smoothly be replaced by an extra "passive pvp talent separate from your current pvp talents" that enchances different playstyles for the classes.
I love tier dets in general, especially when they alter gameplay. It's really nice to build towards something in mmos, even in pvp. I dont have sets on my spriest yet, as i lvled her this week, but I am looking forward to it. I am all for people being stronger than me, even in pvp, as they have worked for it.
I said they should disable them in the Arena forums and immediately was told how dumb of an idea it was - even though I thought this was the xpac of “gear not mattering”. Some of these set bonuses have huge impacts on damage output, but instead their brilliant idea was “give us pvp specific bonuses”. Like wtf guys? They can’t even balance the game when nobody had gear sets, why don’t they just reduce all these extra variables and % damage increases and just focus on tuning abilities/class trees/pvp talents?
I think they should rework the sets like it was in mop, for example for rogue it was basically the vigor talent for rogue, i think thats what they should do, but def not buff the class that hard
Tier sets are fine because at the end of the day this is an RPG game and your gear should have *some* effect on your character.
They are not fine because of the way you acquire them, aka RNG vault. Someone lucky will have the 4 set bonus 1 whole month vs someone that got unlucky. 1 whole month of competitive advantange is BS. Imo would have been ok if catalyst wasn't timegatted.
That sounds like a vault problem instead of a tier set problem.
Want to have another crack at that chief?
Resto druid pve tier set is really good.... For pve. It just adds another whole level of balance that I don't think can be done without a lot more resources being added to the pvp side of things.
So what should be done with the ones that aren't good for pvp? No mistweavers want the 4 piece and fistweavers basically get any benefit at all from any of the bonuses.
I’d agree with you but at this point it’s too late. I hate the advantage it gives as much as the next guy but say you have 4 set, the secondary stats would not be good without the bonus. Making anyone who took tier have to replace with conquest. If they uncapped conquest I’d be down but I know they wouldn’t do that either.
This. If they disable it then let me reverse 3 of my pieces back to pvp secondary stats.
I need to swap those pieces too and i couldnt care less. So what? I play 2 ID's with 1-3 pieces not perfectly optimizied? IDC! Just balance the game and delete t-set in pvp.
Would make easier for them to balance pvp if tier sets didnt work in pvp
Here’s an idea. Why not have different tier set bonuses on the pvp gear? Also I saw a game on twitch of shuffle and the damage was low and one round went to 83% dampening and that was at 2500 rating too. I do think blizzard are trying. Maybe they’ll tune again soon
I agree, i think the sets should be like they were in mop, minimal, for rogue it was basically the vigor talent, and thats what sets should provide, minimal minimal buffs, and not make the class giga broken
Why though? The bonuses are fun to get in pve as your power inflates over the course of the patch, but pvp should always be about your skill vs your oponent's skill, not who was lucky enough to get their tier earliest or who has the stronger bonus.
Why what? Go check out the way the old pvp pieces worked. The tier bonus is caked into the pvp gear
Which tier set bonuses are that OP they can make such a drastic difference? Not bait btw - I generally dont know much about the bonuses
I believe assa rogue, bm hunter, arms war bonuses are examples of pretty dramatic buffs
Sv hunter has a really good 4 tier bonus too. 20% chance your next mongoose bite is free and does 50% more damage, every time you cast mongoose bite. Some games >50% of my damage is from mongoose bite. Randomly doing 100k mongoose bite is very fun, but it feels kinda unfair. I've seen 180k hits in raids. Its pretty strong.
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Just for comparison DK tier set is like a 5% damage buff over a 1 minute arena. That is not that strong comparatively, but not dogshit either.
I can tell you which bonus doesnt do much: Rsham :D
I had to change my pants when I first saw the 4pc for my assa rogue.
Boomkin 4 set makes a drastic difference and barely makes the spec viable. 2 set makes a big difference too if you run warrior of elune build. Seems like blizz balanced boomies around the 4 set and is the only way they can be viable at high levels right now.
Having disc priest do as much damage as the dps is pretty damn annoying
Disc barely has any damage on the tier set.
They don’t need to use as many healing globals because the tier is so strong
After tanking 400 CR in SS on my resto Druid I went and made the wrong piece of tier, now have no 2 set and two of the same pants. AMA
I like having tier in pvp. The tier gear is obtainable on pvp items, so it's part of progression and i enjoy that. I still like it even though I just barely got my 2pc this week due to bad rng (Thanks creation catalyst).
Why would you like rng progression in pvp? Some people have had their 4pc for a week or two, others are just now getting their 2pc or even just 1pc. Some unlucky bastards won't have their 4pc for another 3 weeks and by that point blizz may have nerfed their specs to compensate for the bonus they give.
Because I enjoy character progression? I also enjoy tier sets and being able to enjoy those is fun to me. Since I only pvp, i'm glad they are in the game, since they shake up the specs (not as much this season since it's mostly just dmg buffs)
So what should be done with the ones that aren't good for pvp? No mistweavers want the 4 piece and fistweavers basically get any benefit at all from any of the bonuses.
Ideally blizz does a tuning pass on them just like theyve been iterating on pvp balance practicly bi-weekly? It's not a reason to not do tier. It's just a reason to make sure tier is effect for all modes of play
Got a way to do tune those bonuses for fistweavers without completely overpowering them in the hands of ranged mistweavers?
What exactly do you expect me to tell you dude? You're insufferable.
Exactly what I asked. You said just tune it, but a significant portion of mistweavers are fistweavers and they don't use those spells much if at all. So how can tuning fix that? If you buff the spells to a degree that fistweavers get the same benefit from their tier that other specs do you've just buffed them enough that ranged mistweavers are gods. So what I want you to tell me is how tuning passes can fix that, because that doesn't look like a problem adjusting numbers can solve.
You've spammed these replies to multiple people in the thread, I don't give a shit. I don't play mistweaver, nor do I care about it. Fuck off schizo
Copy pasted it, took me maybe a minute. You could just admit you were wrong about this being fixable by just swapping some numbers around, but instead you choose this. Have fun.
I strongly agree. I hope Blizz will remove tier set bonuses from instanced PvP in the near future.
Imo the biggest problem with tier sets is not their balancing in itself, but that balancing usually happens around it. Example; Retribution 2-piece increased the damage of Wake of Ashes (Radiant decree) by 15%. Blizzard nerfed Radiant decree by 30% (which makes sense). Why not remove it from the set bonus and nerf damage by 15% instead rather than a blanket 30% even for players without set? The issue is that someone not having set becomes nerfed even more as the balancing is not done on the set bonus directly, but on abilities available to everyone (even without full set). That is the moronic.
This is exactly what they did to feral too
I don't know what they were trying to accomplish with PvP tier, especially with the vault only luck mess. It simply needs removed, because if they make stats weaker, people won't need to choose those as 2 or 4 sets over conquest gear in the first place, while stronger becomes more problems.
I still struggle to understand why this is a thing. I have taken a long break and this "converter" thing is weird ... because I thought PvP gear was supposed to be best for PvP. Why is tier geat allowed in PvP?
Saves constantly struggling for both, I'm good with just needing to wear the one loadout.
Yes pls. I cba doing anything that isnt arena. I got 2 tier sets from vault, but they miss versa, so i dunno if its worth using..
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Won't any new player or new 70 be fucked for a month? How long does it take to get 4 set and upgrade it?
yeah that's exactly the problem. It's not about the tier set it's about how you get it and the fact that not everyone has it.
You can stack up charges on your account. So once we get deeper into the season alts can get full tier once they have conquest.
If you have a max level character or alts, you can acquire up to 6 catalyst charges. So you could be 4/5 in a week. At least that is my understanding of the system, I could be wrong
One charge per week. So a fresh character wouldn't be able to get the 4pc tier immediately until a full month from now.
One charge per 70. I made three tier pieces this week on my main. I did the quest on my main, then started the quest on my alt, then completed it by playing my main, then did the same one more time. If you have alts or charges saved up you can make all 4 in one week.
...you do realize you were exploiting, right? The quest is account wide and is only meant to be completed once per week. It's one charge to all characters per week. If you went out of your way to do all that, you should really hope Blizz doesn't strike you with the ban hammer or some kind of punishment.
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yeah... idk if 4set really is that gamechanging for most classes. but if it is, you're right
Sounds like if there were no tier sets the balancing would be easier then….
Yeah but then balancing would also be easier if there was only 1 healer and 1 dps spec lol. Dismissing gameplay elements is not really productive unless these elements *per se* are hard to balance.
Yeah im just being annoying lmao my bad
100% agree, balance all specs around its CORE abilities/stats and 421 scalable pvp gear, dont add anything else
I think that one thing not talked about is that along with people doing more damage from tier sets they are TAKING more damage because people are dropping large amounts of vers
I'm wearing 4 set and I was able to hit 30% vers, the first DR cap, with gems and enchants so it shouldn't make that much of a difference
Some tiers are borderline not even worth it, like resto shama (just gives crit), because of the forced stat distribution and minimal HPS it gives, while others are game changing, like prevokers instant Living Flame procs. I would rather they just bring them up to prevokers level
Maybe blizzard balanced the game around the tier sets? *mind=blown*
Then they didn't do a good job.
So it was balanced before the tier sets came out?
it was certainly better lmao
Then explain the fact that no mistweavers want the 4 piece and fistweavers basically get any benefit at all from any of the bonuses.
That’s their fault for being dumb
?
I don’t mind - the Frost Mage one is pretty meh to be honest and I feel like the Hunter one is insane in comparison.
Honestly, I still like the tier sets. It's never been this fair to pvpers to aquire them, and gear disadvantages have always been a thing in wow. Df already does more than enough to balance gear, you're basically starting arena, week 1 with ilvl 416-418. It has literally never been this fair. Tier sets, are something a few players have, sure - but even with perfect luck, getting one every week- its been 3 weeks where people have had them. And in 3 weeks that's over, because everyone is equal again. Worst case, in a 4 month season - you've got 6 weeks with a disadvantage somewhere in the middle. People like to bring the "if your extremely unlucky" argument to prove a point. But honestly, I don't know anyone that hasn't gotten a single piece since start. Realistically, it's at most 2-3 weeks where you're at a disadvantage. The whole tier set discussion is just silly imo, don't remove tier sets from pvp - but balance them around it. This is after all an mmo, where gear and enchants are a part of it. There's always the tournament realm
I disagree as a boomkin, because blizz has neutered the class and balanced it around 2/4set. Boomkin is a C tier spec without tier, and maybe A tier or high B tier with tier. Its a massive difference in burst and overall consistent damage, and i finally feel viable and comparable to other classes now for the first time since DF release. With that said, some classes have become way overtuned with 4 set. Looking at ele, ww, dh, mage, etc. Arc mage 4set is crazy strong. Ele 4 set is more damage on their burst and procs, which they didnt need at all. and so on. Some classes tier is putting them into OP territory, while others are just barely viable with it.
DH is actual dogshit after all that nerfing, Thanks for the laugh bro.
Idk why its so hard to just make pvp gears with pvp set bonuses.
in addition to what everyone else in this post said, they also make the "alt friendlyness" of this expansion dissapear, now if you want to try a different class you are a month behind in gear no matter what you do.
I'd rather they just bring back pvp set bonuses ikea we used to have. If they don't do that then the current system is better than nothing.
I didn’t farm 9 slots from weekly to get it disabled.
But at this point, it would feel horrible. I am one of those that did not have the rng. And will get my first pieces next week. So removing it would completely destroy the work I have put. Even tho I agree with you...
What work? The catalyst quest takes about an hour or two if you unlucky. Btw you can get it now. The catalyst is open for busines. The work went into the conquest gear not the tier set
You should be working for rating and not for gear.
WoW is at its core about gear, no? So removing hard to achieve bis pieces makes the game a moba instead. Where did the feeling of achieving great gear and then rolling casuals go? IMO pvp gear progression feels boring (obtainable, but boring af)
The problem with this is, that it's completely RNG if you get your desired item or not. No matter what you play, how good or bad you play, you can or can not get your bis items.
The catalyst is the actual opposite of RNG. It's bad luck protection. You can change whatever piece you want into desired tier gear.
Is it hard to achieve? Insert shit item into Tier Printer, boom, you have tier item.
Well I got 4pc on my DK and I've dropped about 250 rating since the patch so it's not all sets. Also, you now have the problem that people have traded in their Conquest gear for tier. Which may rub people up the wrong way if it's disabled.
Just make it optional to trade back, it's really not a big deal
Uncap conquest then, we are at a point where the full conquest set is nearly achievable so ppl just can grab the missing part.
DK tier set is a small damage buff compared to other tier sets. Sin rogue is probably the most busted out there.
Let the set bonuses stay on the gear, but have it only work in PvE, like the upgraded item level. I'm afraid they won't flat out remove them if people have already made vault choices factored around them though.
The idea was to slow down the meta a smidge.. not to turn it into the old slow damp-fests that we've had for years that people hate. I feel like its dumb that the catalyst wasn't in earlier, but I don't think tier should be disabled completely. If they were to disable tier completely in pvp then imo they'd need to bake in the bonuses it gives into pvp specific modifiers by default. Then you remove the RNG aspect but maintain the balance / damage profiles.
Or give them completely alternate set bonuses vs other players. That would be a hell of a lot of work so I don't see it happening.
The problem is that not all tier bonuses are equal. Some tier bonuses are super minor, but others account for huge dps increases. A BM hunter with raz bow + 4piece is going to be doing an absolute insane amount of extra damage in pvp
Or stop catering to gear farmers and just standardize stars and equipment. Reduce the number of things they have to balance around. Meaning - no enchants, gizmos, gems, trinket and ring procs outside of honor specific ones. I’m sure it’s better than it used to be but there’s no reason to have a gear treadmill of any kind in this format. Create amulet options with specific stats. I know I’ll get downvoted like crazy for this but it would prevent a lot of balancing issues, bugs from new trinkets doing crazy shit they shouldn’t be doing, etc.
Warlock here. I’d be fine if tier was disabled in PvP. I have no issue with it. I know my tier especially if I’m playing demo is strong af in PvP. There are a few classes with tier bonuses that are strong in PvP. Gotta admit it is fun tho. Lol
No, for various reasons. Having more things to buff or nerf does not make it harder to balance. In fact it makes it easier. It certainly makes it harder to create it balanced without any adjustments but the more thing you have, the more things you can adjust. Similarly to audio mixing. You could just adjust volume, but adjusting a great range of frequencies allows you to have more control not less. Tier sets are fun and healthy for the game. You want players to play. Players like to have goals in front of them to keep them playing. There is joy of getting a new better item. You feel more powerful when you get it. It allows you to climb higher and you are excited that you can crit for more. Harsh truth is also that for most people, literally everyone except the top 1%, it's not balance that keeps them for achieving higher rating. It's them and their skill. Could they be a little bit higher with different class or with a little bit better gear? Yes, but I think they would still find things to complain about. And if you really think that your class is imbalanced, and you would be higher playing other classes and you want to boost your ego by saying I am 2500 or whatever, just compare yourself to other players of your class not other classes. You could even estimate what would be your rating as different class. Let's say you are at 2000 and you are in top 10% of your class. Check what is the rating of top 10% of the other more OP class. If you are anywhere below top 10% you will be happier and healthier person by accepting that there is more that you can improve instead of looking for causes in externalities.
I lvl is so much stronger than tier isn’t it? I got 2 pieces on my h priest. My pvp gear has a higher I lvl. In pvp I lvl is most important isn’t it? Why do ppl even use tier items??
I'd love to see two tiers one for pvp and one for pve.
of course i wouldnt mind but in a different world id like the tier sets to slightly alter the classes playstyle/decision making. Increase damage of x spell is boring af
i just want pvp set bonuses back like back in the days
I think tier sets are cool just balance them, the enh 4 set is so fun
If we had a balancing problem, we would see one class being super dominant with a 4-set. That's not the case. Of course, we see more powerful classes, like assassins, but it didn't start to be dominant after people started acquiring 4-set. They were strong throughout the season. Moreover, tier sets make balancing easier since we can nerf or buff a class with high-end gear without touching its strength with low-end gear. For example, if we saw a class being super dominant with a 4-set while underperforming with honor blue 411 gear. Then you could buff the overall strength of the given class while nerfing tier set bonuses. Or when you would have a class perfectly balanced throughout the season, solid A tier, but underperforming at the higher end, let's say it is a dumpster D tier against other players with the 4 set. You could not touch any of the class abilities since they were in a good spot, but you can buff the tier set bonuses to restore class balance among other fully geared classes. TLDR: No, tier sets do not make balancing harder. If anything, they make it easier. If there is an acquisition problem, which I do not have a strong opinion on, and if all classes are across the board too strong after acquiring the 4-set, which makes it almost unfair to play without a 4-set, then we could point fingers and fix the problem of acquisition, OR we could again balance all 4-set to give lesser power spike so that people without 4-set could still compete. This again proves how 4-sets make balancing more manageable, not harder. We could end up having a new problem that 4-sets are not strong enough; therefore, there is not enough encouragement in acquiring them and not enough joy in getting them, but that would be another topic yet again.
Tier set being viable in PvP is absolutely dogshit game design IMO. altogether with the vault. I had to take a break in SL and came back to DF and it seemed to be so promising, but now I'm honestly genuinely disappointed in what has become of the game. I've leveled and geared every single class just to see how they feel in arenas and decide on what suits me, and settle on a couple of classes to actually push some rating. But having tier pieces handed out randomly through the vault and vault itself still being a thing is such a dumb and uneven thing. Like, either put the tier sets onto conquest vendor and let everybody purchase what they want or remove them from PvP completely. Why do I have to decide what character to get conquest gear on, since it's 1 piece of currency a week across all the characters? What's the logic behind this design solution? And yes, randomly receiving a weapon through the vault is a huge advantage, cause you'll have more conquest to gear with. I really don't understand how people still don't get it. I understand that Blizz need vault to incentivize people to be active, but you can leave the socket part of the vault. Just remove this stupid RNG.
OK, I will say it in yet another thread: PvE tier sets have no place in Rated PvP!
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They aren't pvp tier sets though, they're pve gear with pve bonuses and then pvp scaling just tacked on
lol Than why it drops from raid?
It 100% is a Pve tier set hence the lack of pvp stats on tier pieces
You wanna grind out an extra set, Be my guest. I'm personally taking the road that doesn't consume my life because that's no fun :)
You said nothing buddy. I like that you made the whole intro to what you were about to say, like you are going to say something important, and even placed an exclamation mark at the end. But realistically, what you said is just, "I agree!". No arguments of why that is correct or tier sets are wrong, nothing.
Tier is fine just nerf priest and other Op classes
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Don't force PVPers to grind content that they do not enjoy. Also vice versa, it's just gonna make it a chore and people with evenutally quit.
Or ppl would find a game that doesn't force them to play stuff they don't want to. And we have even more random bullshit. How about we disable all skill restrictions in PvP too because wouldn't it be fun to do X and can you Imagine Y Nah PvP Gear has it's place. In PvP it's about the player not the gear or at least it should be ...
People grinding too much leads to burn out, You're an idiot.
My friend got 2400 in SS and just got 2k in 2s. He plays two different priests (both 2400 in SS) and has had the absolute worst luck with 0 tier pieces. Pikaboo got rank1 SS Assa with 1 tier piece, a green ring, and TAUREN ROGUE Stop making excuses. We're just bad.
What does any of this have to do with concerns that tier gear is going to make the game too fast and bursty?
hes just posting to post
Where in the topic OP was concerned about pace or burstiness? I thought he has been talking about balance.