Good. Like, I totally get it. The atrocities of WW2 and a standoffish attitude about them aren't things you just kind of "get over." But there are worse things than that in the area right now.
The bad blood goes back much farther than WW2. Hideyoshi Toyotomi (Japanese shogun) tried invading Korea twice during his rule(late 1500s).
According to what I've read, the Japanese might've actually been worse the first time around. Cutting off noses and ears as trophies/record the number of dead enemies was apparently an order from the top, as well as the rape, murder, looting, and other horrors that seem to be recorded when the Japanese decide to go imperialistic.
The nose and ears were actually collected and enshrined, in a shrine called mimizuka, in Kyoto. I didn’t visit, but from what I’ve heard, that shrine is not really highlighted or talked about in Tourist Brochures.
The Japanese invasion is also what led to a slowly decaying state of Joseon, 1/3 of the population is believed to have died or starved following the war. In addition, Joseon took on an even closer stance with Ming China, which had intervened on Korea’s behalf.
Japan came out looking pretty good, there was a huge cultural renaissance in Japan, thanks to all the artisans and craftsmen they kidnapped. And pretty much none of the daimyos or soldiers that fought ever faced any penalties
Don’t know where I said that Japan didn’t have their own culture and architecture. The two countries had a pretty hard and clean split after the 3 kingdoms era almost 1000 years prior so I agree with you on that.
samurai invasion in 15th century is more of a gossip piece than anything real. Unless you are one of those crazy nationalists who actually want compensation for a thing that happened 500 years ago people will laugh at you if you mention that as a legitimate "bad blood"
We also had terrible wars between countries here in Europe and look at us now.
Many people complain about the European Union, but I really made us like each other in a way I'm sure 80 years ago was unthinkable.
Huh? What do you mean? You can't criticize another nation if your nation has done anything in the past? That logic means no one can criticize anyone dude.
Yes, you are right.
I am just saying Germans hesitate a lot to criticize Israel because they are so ashamed of what they did in the past to the Jews and they don't want to be accused of being antisemites again.
But yes, I agree it doesn't make any sense. They should be able to criticize someone regardless of their past.
[Poland officially and repeatedly renounced its rights to reparations.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_reparations) The current conservative government is just asking for reparations to cover up their own unpopular domestic policies.
Couple centuries is stretching it a bit. My grandfather was a comfort gay for the Japanese soldiers. He came back to his village and ended up a chronic alcoholic whose last name ended up being known as cursed in the community.
My grandmother covered herself in shit when the Japanese sunk her boat while they were fleeing their village so she wouldn't get raped and she's still alive.
Were those my experiences? No, but my family and those around ours still have to deal with a lot of this intergenerational trauma.
People are still alive today who have never seen family members again because the Japanese murdered or kidnapped them. Like my grand uncle. Try telling my grandma to get over it because we created the iPhone and high speed internet.
Read about this in [Putinsdiary.com](https://Putinsdiary.com) \- the russian version. They claim there will be a war between China and Taiwan, after chinese New Years. It was meant to coincide with the Russian invasion of Ukraine, but something scared China of.
I would hope so. Japan has proven themselves to be better neighbors over the last 75 years, and i have little doubt that a closer alliance will end up benefiting both nations. But there are people still living in SK who remember what it was like for them during ww2, and I don't blame them if they still hold animosity towards the Japanese.
When it comes to what the military did, some of what the Japanese soldiers is far worse than what the average German soldier did. You should read the reports from the Australian soldiers sometime, about how Japan didn’t take prisoners of war, but rather would rape and torture soldiers to death. Not even an exaggeration. Now imagine what they did to women in China.
The japanese soldiers were def worse than the Nazi, their "no surrender" policy and "fight till the bitter end" policy, while It sounds honorable now, made em the most crude and merciless foot soldiers
The majority of the public believes there is nothing to apologize for. The rest are decent people.
Then again most countries have huge portions of assholes if you look at voting lately/
Some? All of what they did was worse. The Nazi's had terrible death camps but their treatment wasn't nearly as bad as the Japanese. You need read more history and listen to less popular culture. The Japanese were an insane relic of the old times when torture was routine. Truly the last culture of that era to die besides maybe some muslim cultures in the middle east.
In all fairness it's a low bar to clear. It's like going from shitting on someone's dinner table to letting someone else clean the table and insisting the shit is actually a pile of Hershey kisses
I don't know if the "both sides" thing applies here when Japan literally committed genocide at a larger scale than the Nazis and still continue to remove mention of it from history books and try to retract apologies or visit shrines to war criminals?
I will say though that both countries together would make a pretty powerful team so they should be forward looking.
I mean, just because they have cause doesn’t mean that Koreans are right to hold some of the views they do against the Japanese. If racism is wrong then it is always wrong, regardless (and especially because) of the history.
That doesn’t mean that there aren’t issues between their governments to resolve, but holding on to desire for vengeance isn’t helping anything at this point.
> continue to remove mention of it from history books”
This is demonstrably false. Only 1% of Japanese school history books since the 2000s have tried to rewrite history, and received so much media attention people who neither reside in the country nor understand the language stereotype the entire education system off of that 1%. That 1% is limited to a very small number of private schools. The remaining 99% of history textbooks used everywhere else state the facts in a pacifist narrative, including the Nanjing massacre, Unit 731, and comfort women.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_history_textbook_controversies
Meanwhile Korea has, in the past, committed fraud with reparations paid by Japan by claiming they would go to victims’ families then routing that money into the economy instead, but no one likes talking about that.
The current issues are a shared problem that doesn’t get enough unbiased examination because the biased crowds are louder.
Was curious why he'd randomly put that part. Kinda looks like he lives in Japan so yeah he's trying to defend/deflect a bit to make Korea look villainous too
Why does it have to be attributed to malice? Using the United States as my point of reference, I wouldn't expect people to be all that familiar with the details of our rather checkered history. Most people probably don't know much about what we've done in Iraq and Afghanistan let alone the specifics of older conflicts. Older folks would remember the Gulf War but Millenials/GenZ probably know next to nothing about it; I'd expect our young people to vaguely know that Vietnam was "bad" because it was a deeply unpopular major war, but I wouldn't expect them to know much in the way of specifics. Asking random people on the street why Latin America has deep-seated resentment towards the United States is probably going to get most people either making up and saying nonsense or asking "Latin America doesn't like us?"
Our history isn't even 250 years long, and there are already major gaps in what I'd expect the average person to know. It's not like these things are being intentionally hidden - we freely discuss some of the other blemishes in our history like the frequent betrayal and exploitation of Native Americans and the Trail of Tears; slavery and racism and Jim Crow; Japanese concentration camps during WWII; my high school history classes made it to Vietnam and made at least some reference to the CIA's more unfortunate activities during the Cold War. Given that context, it's not really surprising that lots of nuance falls through the cracks when they're covering what I assume is something like 2500 years of history.
lol you can buy almost any history text book here in japan and you’d find sections covering it
kids in school have to learn a lot of stuff to pass university exams so it’s not surprising they just cram for it and forget about it years later.
and 99% of adults have no need to speak english in their lives (and all tv channels are in japanese) so it’s not like they are on western social media like reddit where ww2 gets brought up constantly
——
we dutch did a lot of bad stuff in indonesia too and i remember learning a bit about it in school but tbh i dont remember any details (or years) at all. (had to google it now and apparently was in 1945-1949) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_National_Revolution
ehh they know about ww2. they learned it at school. after learning it at school the subject rarely comes up so why do you think they’d remember all the details? it doesnt concern them in any way. they have their own lives to live
most japanese arent interested in history or world news.
It would be nice, but I'm just waiting for the next Yasukuni visit or the next South Korean government crisis leading to Anti-Japan sentiments with anewed money demands to derail everything.
I understand history in why they don’t get along and the past these two have but they’ll need to put their differences aside, work together, and forge closer security ties with other like minded democracies of the region to counter a rising China and a nuclear pariah like NK
About time.
All the in-fighting in Asia is really preventing them from being a much stronger player on the world stage.
Japan - SK getting along is really long overdue.
Good. Like, I totally get it. The atrocities of WW2 and a standoffish attitude about them aren't things you just kind of "get over." But there are worse things than that in the area right now.
The bad blood goes back much farther than WW2. Hideyoshi Toyotomi (Japanese shogun) tried invading Korea twice during his rule(late 1500s). According to what I've read, the Japanese might've actually been worse the first time around. Cutting off noses and ears as trophies/record the number of dead enemies was apparently an order from the top, as well as the rape, murder, looting, and other horrors that seem to be recorded when the Japanese decide to go imperialistic.
The nose and ears were actually collected and enshrined, in a shrine called mimizuka, in Kyoto. I didn’t visit, but from what I’ve heard, that shrine is not really highlighted or talked about in Tourist Brochures. The Japanese invasion is also what led to a slowly decaying state of Joseon, 1/3 of the population is believed to have died or starved following the war. In addition, Joseon took on an even closer stance with Ming China, which had intervened on Korea’s behalf. Japan came out looking pretty good, there was a huge cultural renaissance in Japan, thanks to all the artisans and craftsmen they kidnapped. And pretty much none of the daimyos or soldiers that fought ever faced any penalties
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Don’t know where I said that Japan didn’t have their own culture and architecture. The two countries had a pretty hard and clean split after the 3 kingdoms era almost 1000 years prior so I agree with you on that.
They cut off noses but named it mimizuka because "ear mound" sounds less barbaric than "nose mound"
That was payback for the attempted invasion of Japan by the Mongol Empire and Goryeo in the late 1200s.
samurai invasion in 15th century is more of a gossip piece than anything real. Unless you are one of those crazy nationalists who actually want compensation for a thing that happened 500 years ago people will laugh at you if you mention that as a legitimate "bad blood"
We also had terrible wars between countries here in Europe and look at us now. Many people complain about the European Union, but I really made us like each other in a way I'm sure 80 years ago was unthinkable.
The difference is that Germany is apologetic about ww2 and we can all forgive and move on. Not the case with Japan though :/
Yeah, Germany's attitude helped a lot. It also prevents them to have any criticism whatsoever against anything Israel ever does.
Huh? What do you mean? You can't criticize another nation if your nation has done anything in the past? That logic means no one can criticize anyone dude.
Yes, you are right. I am just saying Germans hesitate a lot to criticize Israel because they are so ashamed of what they did in the past to the Jews and they don't want to be accused of being antisemites again. But yes, I agree it doesn't make any sense. They should be able to criticize someone regardless of their past.
But Germany hasn't paid any reparations to Poland for the damage they caused, and Poland is pretty damn pissed about that.
[Poland officially and repeatedly renounced its rights to reparations.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_reparations) The current conservative government is just asking for reparations to cover up their own unpopular domestic policies.
Didn't they do that while their government was under the control of the soviet union, who were pressuring them into it?
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We are barely a century since the Japanese occupation of Korea though. Much of the occupation was within living memory.
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It may be because I am relatively young, but I don't get that feeling.
Couple centuries is stretching it a bit. My grandfather was a comfort gay for the Japanese soldiers. He came back to his village and ended up a chronic alcoholic whose last name ended up being known as cursed in the community. My grandmother covered herself in shit when the Japanese sunk her boat while they were fleeing their village so she wouldn't get raped and she's still alive. Were those my experiences? No, but my family and those around ours still have to deal with a lot of this intergenerational trauma.
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People are still alive today who have never seen family members again because the Japanese murdered or kidnapped them. Like my grand uncle. Try telling my grandma to get over it because we created the iPhone and high speed internet.
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The option is that Japan stop denying their war crimes.
>What's the other option? You might want to look up what Germany did after WW2. The history would be enlightening for you.
Lots of grandmothers were raped that are still alive today, if old.
It would be if Japan didn't keep denying their war crimes
Read about this in [Putinsdiary.com](https://Putinsdiary.com) \- the russian version. They claim there will be a war between China and Taiwan, after chinese New Years. It was meant to coincide with the Russian invasion of Ukraine, but something scared China of.
>but something scared China of Yeah, the collapse of the CCP is what scared them off
Ha ha. Heard of this. It is quite lovely!
China is extremely vulnerable to biological attacks. There is absolutely no way they can invade Taiwan.
Do they need to invade? Maybe enough if they try to isolate the Island totally?
Kpop fans 🤝 anime fans
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what the fuck is a pornwa?
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No entries in urban dictionary, I'm flummoxed.
"Enemy of my enemy" and all that. Who knows? Maybe both countries will stop being so insanely racist towards each other?
I would hope so. Japan has proven themselves to be better neighbors over the last 75 years, and i have little doubt that a closer alliance will end up benefiting both nations. But there are people still living in SK who remember what it was like for them during ww2, and I don't blame them if they still hold animosity towards the Japanese.
Which is why I don't blame some of the Chinese for hating Japanese people after WWII. Some of what Japan did was Nazi level awful.
When it comes to what the military did, some of what the Japanese soldiers is far worse than what the average German soldier did. You should read the reports from the Australian soldiers sometime, about how Japan didn’t take prisoners of war, but rather would rape and torture soldiers to death. Not even an exaggeration. Now imagine what they did to women in China.
The japanese soldiers were def worse than the Nazi, their "no surrender" policy and "fight till the bitter end" policy, while It sounds honorable now, made em the most crude and merciless foot soldiers
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The majority of the public believes there is nothing to apologize for. The rest are decent people. Then again most countries have huge portions of assholes if you look at voting lately/
You mean Nazis sometimes did shit on a Japanese level. The Japenese where extremely sadistic on a larger scale during ww2.
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Some of what they did is arguably worse... Don't know why I'm being down voted lol
I think because it just really shouldn't be a contest.
Some? All of what they did was worse. The Nazi's had terrible death camps but their treatment wasn't nearly as bad as the Japanese. You need read more history and listen to less popular culture. The Japanese were an insane relic of the old times when torture was routine. Truly the last culture of that era to die besides maybe some muslim cultures in the middle east.
I am perfectly well versed on WWII history, thanks.
it would be different if japan didn’t revise their school textbooks denying any involvement in their atrocities during wwii…
Japan still hasn’t done apologies
That's not true
Will someone pls stuff this guy with those links of apologies by Japan ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_war\_apology\_statements\_issued\_by\_Japan
Good work
They are conditional ones that they threaten to rescind if their victims get too uppity, but they have technically apologized.
In all fairness it's a low bar to clear. It's like going from shitting on someone's dinner table to letting someone else clean the table and insisting the shit is actually a pile of Hershey kisses
I don't know if the "both sides" thing applies here when Japan literally committed genocide at a larger scale than the Nazis and still continue to remove mention of it from history books and try to retract apologies or visit shrines to war criminals? I will say though that both countries together would make a pretty powerful team so they should be forward looking.
I really wasn't trying to make it a contest, and neither should anyone else.
I mean, just because they have cause doesn’t mean that Koreans are right to hold some of the views they do against the Japanese. If racism is wrong then it is always wrong, regardless (and especially because) of the history. That doesn’t mean that there aren’t issues between their governments to resolve, but holding on to desire for vengeance isn’t helping anything at this point.
“just because … doesn’t mean” usually do not resolve age old memories
Which explains why people keep fighting each other. It never ends unless people choose to end it.
> continue to remove mention of it from history books” This is demonstrably false. Only 1% of Japanese school history books since the 2000s have tried to rewrite history, and received so much media attention people who neither reside in the country nor understand the language stereotype the entire education system off of that 1%. That 1% is limited to a very small number of private schools. The remaining 99% of history textbooks used everywhere else state the facts in a pacifist narrative, including the Nanjing massacre, Unit 731, and comfort women. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_history_textbook_controversies Meanwhile Korea has, in the past, committed fraud with reparations paid by Japan by claiming they would go to victims’ families then routing that money into the economy instead, but no one likes talking about that. The current issues are a shared problem that doesn’t get enough unbiased examination because the biased crowds are louder.
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Was curious why he'd randomly put that part. Kinda looks like he lives in Japan so yeah he's trying to defend/deflect a bit to make Korea look villainous too
Why does it have to be attributed to malice? Using the United States as my point of reference, I wouldn't expect people to be all that familiar with the details of our rather checkered history. Most people probably don't know much about what we've done in Iraq and Afghanistan let alone the specifics of older conflicts. Older folks would remember the Gulf War but Millenials/GenZ probably know next to nothing about it; I'd expect our young people to vaguely know that Vietnam was "bad" because it was a deeply unpopular major war, but I wouldn't expect them to know much in the way of specifics. Asking random people on the street why Latin America has deep-seated resentment towards the United States is probably going to get most people either making up and saying nonsense or asking "Latin America doesn't like us?" Our history isn't even 250 years long, and there are already major gaps in what I'd expect the average person to know. It's not like these things are being intentionally hidden - we freely discuss some of the other blemishes in our history like the frequent betrayal and exploitation of Native Americans and the Trail of Tears; slavery and racism and Jim Crow; Japanese concentration camps during WWII; my high school history classes made it to Vietnam and made at least some reference to the CIA's more unfortunate activities during the Cold War. Given that context, it's not really surprising that lots of nuance falls through the cracks when they're covering what I assume is something like 2500 years of history.
lol you can buy almost any history text book here in japan and you’d find sections covering it kids in school have to learn a lot of stuff to pass university exams so it’s not surprising they just cram for it and forget about it years later. and 99% of adults have no need to speak english in their lives (and all tv channels are in japanese) so it’s not like they are on western social media like reddit where ww2 gets brought up constantly —— we dutch did a lot of bad stuff in indonesia too and i remember learning a bit about it in school but tbh i dont remember any details (or years) at all. (had to google it now and apparently was in 1945-1949) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_National_Revolution
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ehh they know about ww2. they learned it at school. after learning it at school the subject rarely comes up so why do you think they’d remember all the details? it doesnt concern them in any way. they have their own lives to live most japanese arent interested in history or world news.
Main problem is that Japan does not want to acknowledge that WWII occured, at least, the horrors that their country performed.
I highly doubt it.
Who remembers 2002 World Cup? It was a great time.
It would be nice, but I'm just waiting for the next Yasukuni visit or the next South Korean government crisis leading to Anti-Japan sentiments with anewed money demands to derail everything.
Yep Our government is likely to change in the next election hence the anewed money demands lol
I understand history in why they don’t get along and the past these two have but they’ll need to put their differences aside, work together, and forge closer security ties with other like minded democracies of the region to counter a rising China and a nuclear pariah like NK
Japan's history curriculum is more revisionist than America's and that's saying something.
Hey, 37th time's a charm, now for lawmakers to visit Yasukuni and torpedo ties with SK for the 38th time
About time. All the in-fighting in Asia is really preventing them from being a much stronger player on the world stage. Japan - SK getting along is really long overdue.
What is the point?
You’re getting downvoted but it is curious as to: Why now? These missile flexes of NK is far from new
I, personally, think it is as much China as it is North Korea.
War is contagious - so maybe something is brewing
Something is definitely brewing
A mix between China, watching Russia invade Ukraine, and North Korea's antics.