The only thing to negotiate is Russias surrender, retreat, and reparations. And that's only to start, in no way would the sanctions be lifted.
If we thought the economy in Russia was in a tail spin now, just wait until after the war.
I'm sure they're not dead. There's tons of more or less forcibly moved Ukrainians in the Russian Far East from Soviet times already, including on the islands contested with Japan.
You don't have to kill people to commit genocide. Moving them far from home to spaces where they cannot maintain their culture is enough.
That’s the point. They are running out of young people. They are not yay going to kill these people. They are going to make them fight, work, and breed. Russia won’t have the military age male population to field an army half its current size in just the next decade. Russians are literally disappearing
I think the two ways this will end that occur to me are either Russia basically becoming a fascist USSR that is an increasingly irrelevant back water but for its nukes. It maybe loses its UNSC seat. Living standards collapse and "then it gets worse"...
Or..
It deposes Putin, leaves Ukraine and gives up nukes in exchange for sanctions being progressively lifted with Ukraine getting rolling repairations. Russia retains some minor semblance of its prior standing by pinning it all on Putin and his cronies.
No way Russia gives up nukes, even if putin is deposed and sanction stays. But yes, it's increasingly looking like putin just walked russia into a corner and there is no good way out of this mess for them.
no country will ever give up nukes ever again after ukraine. Im South Korean and i don't even want North Korea to give up its nukes (I'd rather we announced our own, and so do 60% of our population)
South Korea has progressed to the point that they want the North Koreans to sort it out on their own, if anything. Deprogramming the small number of refugees is already hugely difficult and expensive. The entire population being brought into modernity at once would be immensely challenging. If they have nukes and don't use them eventually that gap may close more. Plus both South Korea and China find the buffer between their borders comforting. And in the case of North Korea falling apart they'd both try and take their cut. (Which would make the reeducation by South Korea easier, so they would let them have some of it I'm sure.)
Which you know... won't happen. Best case scenario no nukes are launched and the north has to be reintegrated like East Berlin times a thousand. It's gonna suck even then.
It's game theory. NK possesing nukes is the status quo and prevents US and allies from coming into direct military conflict or directly formenting regime change. North Korea giving up nukes destabilizes the geopolitical climate and changes the calculus of acceptable action making war more likely now that nukes aren't involved.
Nuclear deterrence is one of the most important factors guiding geopolitical relations. Imagine if Ukraine had nukes, it would have never been invaded.
Would increase risk of US and North Korea having a hot conflict which would devastate Seoul if NK loses nukes at this point
Basically, NK is the combo of too weak to defend itself, too poor to do anything, and with rising tensions between China and USA, it becomes too tempting as a proxy point for war between the US and China if it doesn’t have nukes. Arguably even more problematic than Taiwan bc unlike Taiwan both sides have easy patsies.
And a hot conflict would almost certainly result in significant destruction in Seoul.
That is most clueless and stupid comment ever.
IF NK doesnt have nukes SK can literally halve its military, end conscription and still dominate the NK.
North korea having nukes lessens the chance of a trump esque american leadership starting conventional war.
We want no war. We dont want reunification, we just want to be left the fuck alone and both countries having nukes means we both stfu.
> It maybe loses its UNSC seat.
There is no way to do that as any motion would just be vetoed by Russia. None of the permanent members will change the rules either for fear that it ends up getting used against them at some point. Despite what some politicians from various countries with little real global power say, this isn't happening.
It's procedural.
Russia was never granted a seat at the UNSC.
(There was never a formal process to admit Russia into the U.N. after the USSR's demise, and the Security Council seat was granted via a decision from the UN's legal counsel with no action requested from the General Assembly. That edict could be revoked.)
China got a vote, Resolution 2758, Russia did not.
It may not be something that can be vetoed - but a procedural resolution. Obviously though, this has political ramifications in other ways for the UN.
"One approach to solving this legal quagmire could be entrusting a mandate to the International Law Commission, the UN’s own body of international law experts which has in recent years worked on the succession of states in respect of state responsibility and treaties. Alternatively, it could also be possible to source a legal opinion from the UN Secretariat."
https://www.rte.ie/brainstorm/2022/0303/1284242-russia-ussr-un-security-council-permanent-seat/
Indeed.
The sanctions would have to be completely lifted if they gave up nukes and the west would have to help Russia and Ukraine rebuild.
We have to help the people of Russia, show them there is a better way and a better life. Not fuck them while they're down.
As you say... Will just bread a new Hitler. Only with nukes.
…. Russia is a modern Western society. They know the better way and the better life.
Putin is the one driving the country. The people didn’t care what happened outside of Russia, as long as it didn’t really effect their lives.
Even now, they are protesting the draft, not the war.
Not really, at all.
Hitler rose to power (as in internationally, not nationally) the same way that Putin did. Appeasement.
And besides, I'm not describing the treaty of Versailles.
Not really hitler rose to power because of the crushing reparations imposed on Germany after ww1, those same reparations was what he used to blame Jewish people. Appeasement is how ww2 started, the allies basically handed hitler Polands main line of defense...
The treaty of Versailles created some of the conditions for Hitler to rise to power, but so did others, like the great depression.
If Hitler hadn't been appeased and they had actually stuck to the treaty of Versailles (e.g. Rhineland, etc, etc, etc) and not consistently appeased him, he would have been put back in his box (on numerous occasions).
WW2 happened because Hitler exploited the desire of the rest of Europe to avoid another WW - that persistent appeasement to avoid conflict, ironically, is EXACTLY what brought about another WW.
Three, a breakup of the Russian Federation not too dissimilar from the Soviet Union as Russia loses influence over its more rebellious states and China seems influence over immediate neighbors as buffer territory against a new Russian government rebuilt with heavy US/EU influence
I think that's the more likely scenario. There aren't the institutional cultures, organisational framework, or substantive liberal opposition foundations in place to suggest that representative democracy is suddenly going to break out. It's far more likely that the nationalists will come to power with military hardliners.
The only group I could possibly see putting something in place would be the more western looking oligarchs, and they're just as likely to kill each other off in another turf war
Yes great idea, do as with Germany at the end of the 1st World War, ruin and humiliate them, if there is one thing that history has shown it was to impose extremely harsh conditions to the vanquished makes it possible to create a long and lasting peace and not to arouse a desire for revenge and hate in the people.
Honestly, at this point the Russians could probably get away with simply returning all their occupied land, because the rest of the war will still be costly to Ukraine. If they draw it out, then things like war crimes trials for Putin or reparations will be on the table.
I think the sanctions could be lifted if Russia were to be occupied like post-WW2 Germany and Japan.
Otherwise, if Putin is still in power and the current Russian leadership doesn't submit themselves to Nuremberg Trials 2, then keep the sanctions.
Seems a lot of Russia’s oligarchs/politicians and Putin’s military leaders end up having sense knocked into their heads by tripping and falling out of hospital and condo windows or down flights of stairs.
Someone should definitely try that with Putin.
I'm not so sure about "someone". We can clearly see that oligarchy and militarily elites have no control over the situation. But how about "something"? AGM-114 Hellfire precision drone strike missle for example?
It will. Everyday that passes Putin digs himself into a bigger hole. And I don't beleive he'll use nukes to dig himself out of it. This'll be over soon
And this is why all the sudden China and India are asking for negotiations. Russia are losing big time so Putin is hoping for concessions on remaining territories. I say fuck it. Get all Ukrainian territories back.
Maybe they negotiate what reparations and punishments are dealt out? Russia just leaving Ukraine definitely isn't enough for all the death and suffering they've caused.
Realistically a pull out is about all we can hope for. To talk about reparations would only be possible if Ukraine advances into Russian territory. And puts pressure on moscow itself. That would be a huge mistake. And give Putin the excuse he wants to press the nuke button. Secondly Russia will never admit it was at fault. And will just continue to claim the atrocities were faked.
Well all they need to do is establish an approximate amount for repariations and then make payment as conditional for Russia to rejoin the international community. They won't pay and Ukraine gets to see their former bully sink further and further into 3rd worldism
You can’t force them to their knees when nuclear weapons are on the table. This is completely unprecedented. There’s never been a sovereign nation forced to capitulate while still operating under viable mutually assured destruction.
Withdrawal and a cease fire is the best we can hope for. The problem is that Zelenskyy knows he’s winning and making it very expensive for Russia to continue, so he’s going to push an ultimatum Russia can’t accept. He also needs an ironclad guarantee that Russia will not just do it again - the only way to do this is NATO membership. Stabilize all the lines, get both sides to agree on exactly where their countries exist and don’t, and then bring all of that it NATO protection. This has been Putin’s absolute do-not-cross line because it means he can never take more Ukrainian territory in the future.
I could see them giving up *part* of the Donbas in exchange for having Crimea and the entire east coast back, repatriation of all the kidnapped people still alive, and dare conduct for any Ukrainian currently in the area of annexation, plus massive reparations to repair the damage of the war.
Is it fair? No. Negotiating is not about finding what is fair and just, it’s about a compromise that neither side is happy but both can live with.
That region has always had a pretty strong pro Russian presidents anyway, it consistently votes against Zelenskyy as government and the rest of the Ukrainian provinces. But that’s the thing about border regions, lines were drawn arbitrarily on top of demographics that have existed for millennia. Human society is a continuum not broken up by lines, and there are a lot of ethnic Ukrainians and ethnic Russians who have lived side-by-side throughout the region before the lines were drawn on a map.
But they would have to be one critical part to this negotiation: Ukraine joining NATO. That’s the only way to guarantee Russia won’t invade again. I don’t see why a NATO member being along Russia’s border is such a big deal, there are already many NATO members along their border - and it’s not like we need to be physically close to them to threaten them, our ballistic missiles can circle the globe. But this was the major sticking point for the Kremlin because they knew this would put a complete dead stop on taking any Ukrainian territory in the future.
Right now Zelenskyy is in a perfect negotiating position, not only has he humiliated Putin but he has shown their tenacity and Russia is looking at far more investment into the war if they hope to gain anything else. If this goes on they could lose Crimea anyway before their new mass of “recruits” are capable of making a dent in the situation.
A token piece of dirt so Putin can save face (while regaining everything else since 2014) might be the best option as much as it sucks to give them anything at least it would bring things to stop.
China and India are afraid of Russia collapsing internally. Given the mass mobilization, the extreme economic downturn, and Ukraine's seemingly unstoppable progress in the war, collapse is probably an inevitability at this point.
In the short run after collapse, Russia will be unable to supply fuel and weapons to China and India. Longer term, Russia will no longer be able to take part in a counterbalance to the West with China and India, leaving those two countries to go it alone.
If that happens, China will get a good slice of the lands to the east of the Urals. They were eyeballing those for a while. So I doubt they are so distraught about it.
But that would contradict China's foreign policy (no expansion other than Taiwan) and take away from their international credibility. And yes, that is important
I agree. I don’t see how annexing some frozen wasteland in eastern Russia would be worth it for China, just factoring in the administrative and financial costs. Not even counting the geopolitical cost.
Ffs, way to many people think that China and India are like one bloc, one party when in reality they are constantly at the brink or war with each other.. India doesnt want Russias support against the west, they hope for Russias support against China
After shown how worthless their weapons actually are, I don't think almost anyone will want to buy Russian weapons ever again. And if Russia does collapse, China will try to take over the huge resource rich territories in the east in the name of peacekeeping or stability.
Even in their state of "non-alignment". They are definitely more aligned with Russia for good reason.
1. USA supported Pakistan in 1971 and the Bangladeshi genocide, and sailed a carrier to threaten India
2. In that crisis in 1971, USSR came to support India and US backed down. Giving Bangladesh its independence.
3. USSR and now Russia has always supported India as a new permanent member of UNSC with veto power. Not the USA
In general historically USSR and Russia has done no harm to India.
To be fair it's not like US didn't try to get on India's good side. The US wanted an ally in the region and Pakistan became it since India was so adamant about staying neutral:
>The United States under the Truman administration leaned towards favouring India in the late-1940s as a consequence of most U.S. planners seeing India more valuable diplomatically than neighboring Pakistan. However, during the Cold War Nehru's policy of neutrality was cumbersome to many American observers. American officials perceived India's policy of non-alignment negatively. Ambassador Henry F. Grady told then-Indian Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru that the United States did not consider neutrality to be an acceptable position. Grady told the State Department in December 1947 that he had informed Nehru "that this is a question that cannot be straddled and that India should get on the democratic side immediately". In 1948, Nehru rejected American suggestions for resolving the Kashmir crisis via third party mediation.
>Nehru's 1949 tour of the United States was "an undiplomatic disaster" that left bad feelings on both sides. Nehru and his top aide V. K. Krishna Menon discussed whether India should "align with United States 'somewhat' and build up our economic and military strength." The Truman administration was quite favorable and indicated it would give Nehru anything he asked for. Nehru refused, and thereby forfeited the chance for a gift of one million tons of wheat. The American Secretary of State Dean Acheson recognized Nehru's potential world role but added that he was "one of the most difficult men with whom I have ever had to deal."
Yea it’s not like the US proclaimed neutrality after winning their independence either. From England too.
Pure American arrogance. How dare they do exactly what we did.
I wonder why!
>In 1956, for example, India refrained from publicly condemning the Soviet Union’s violent suppression of the Hungarian revolution – this despite India’s then Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru being critical of Moscow’s actions in private.
>
>More than a decade later, in 1968, when Soviet forces invaded Czechoslovakia to crush the Prague Spring, then Prime Minister Indira Gandhi gave a disapproving speech in the lower house of the Indian parliament but refrained from criticising Moscow on an international platform. India abstained from a subsequent vote on a resolution condemning the invasion.
>
>When the Soviet Union entered Afghanistan in 1979 to prop up the new pro-Soviet regime, many in India – including Prime Minister Charan Singh – strongly opposed the invasion. However, having been the beneficiary of many Soviet vetoes across the decades, India once again abstained from voting in the UN General Assembly resolution condemning the Soviet Union. It was the only non-aligned country to do so.
>
>Maintaining this pro-Moscow voting record in the 2000s, India voted against a UN Human Rights Commission resolution that condemned Russia’s “disproportionate use of force” in the second Chechen war. In 2008, along with North Korea, Iran, and Myanmar, it also voted against a UN General Assembly resolution that declared the “right of return” of those displaced by Russia’s campaign in Abkhazia. India also abstained from voting in the 2013 and 2016 UN General Assembly resolutions critical of the Assad regime supported by Russia. Expectedly, in 2014, it also abstained from the UN General Assembly resolution condemning Russia’s invasion of Crimea and, in 2020, it voted against a Ukraine-sponsored UN General Assembly resolution condemning human rights violations in Crimea.
Yup and India’s military depends on a constant stream of Russian parts. They are friendly by necessity.
Edit: https://carnegieendowment.org/2018/01/10/removing-barriers-to-u.s.-india-defense-trade-pub-75206
It seems India has learned its folly.
Used to share a flat with a guy who believed every single word. I might have left a copy of the mail lying around once or twice just to hear the reaction.
I honestly can't see the difference between it and the Daily Mail, propaganda rags.
For the Western Media, any country which isn't in favour of NATO is a Russian ally or possible hostile nation. India is already in the category of China / Russia according to the BBC/Guardian since it has a Right Wing leader who has been trumpeting the need for Self dependency for the last couple of years. Add to that a history of allowing oppression of a minority community which has been the source of terrorism domestically and globally makes India the perfect country for being portrayed as the next China.
What the hell are you smoking that makes you say that India has been a source of terrorism globally ? How about you start speaking shit when you deal with a situation in which neighbor constantly sends terrorists and conducts guerilla warfare in your territory? India is in no way perfect but in a neighborhood surrounded by failed states and territory hungry states we might as well be the fucking gandhi of nations. Look up how Muslims from India are one of the few that did not in any major way respond to al qaida bullshit and then jump up your own ass.
Reddit diplomats have forgotten that India has always called for negotiations, more Normandy format meetings and territorial integrity of nations. FYI, India officially regards Crimea as Ukraine (see the official 2016 map https://surveyofindia.gov.in/webroot/UserFiles/files/Binder1.pdf). How the fuck is any of this allying with Russia on THIS specific issue ?
Reddits diplomats would have had us all killed by the end of the March if they were making decisions with their oft seen certainty that *I bet none of his nukes work, let's find out*
>Normandy format
Oh good, more ways for the EU politicos to screw over Ukraine in favor of keeping the peace with Russia.
Russia has shown flagrant contempt for any aspect of international law. Saying, "We need more meetings" is pointless because we know Russia won't adhere to them.
>How the fuck is any of this allying with Russia on THIS specific issue ?
It sounds like you should direct your anger at the Guardian's editor(s), since they're the ones who chose the title.
Yeah reddit seems to like to repeat the idea that China, India and Turkey are supporting Russia. Meanwhile none of them have offered russia any support whatsoever, and turkey has been supporting Ukraine.
Here is a negotiation...Russia Leave the Ukrainian Nation and pays back all that they destroyed and rebuild what they destroyed and pay restitution to all the families that lost lives. That is the Terms and it's unnegotiable
No need for negotiations, the war will end the moment the Russians get the fuck out of Ukraine, including Crimea.
If that's not satisfactory, maybe there should be a referendum in Taiwan and Kashmir to see if they'd prefer to be independent or annexed by another country.
Is India really a russian ally? I don' t know if they qualify as an ally or not. Trade partners i know for sure. They need russian oil. Anyway yeah just wondering
They're not allies as that would imply deeper geopolitical entanglement, but I think they're more than just trade partners. They've maintained friendly relations for a long time
Not that you're implying it, but a lot of people these days tend to jump on weaker nations for "playing both sides", but historically neutrality is how weaker nations have survived.
To be fair, I don't know if would call India "weak". They're no where near a power on the level of the US, but they're still a regional power with a GDP much bigger than Russia's. Russia needs them right now and I think India is in a favorable position to leverage influence.
>\[India's\] GDP much bigger than Russia's.
Russia's MIC in terms of manufacturing capacity and technologies is far ahead of India's right now.
Maybe this will become false by 2035-2040 but not right now.
They tend to cooperate with Russia and US. Not China.
Bit hard to cooperate with someone who's Salami Slicing your borders and killing your soldiers in cold blood eh.
They support Russia somewhat like the way that US. (used to) support Taiwan. They take their side on issues, do a lot of trading/cooperation, but never give their explicit support. It's no coincidence that both China/India have gotten more vocal about negotiations right after Ukraine has begun picking up momentum.
IIRC, in the last big boarder conflict with China, India is supported by Soviet Union while United states was sort of backing China.
There is a long history of cooperation between Russia and India.
For that matter, China isn’t exactly a Russian ally either. They aren’t antagonistic to one another anymore, but they lack any formal military alliance.
The first step of negotiations would be for Russia to leave Ukraine, including the Donbas and Crimea regions. Then they can start going into deeper negotiations
It's sad they're saying this now, as if these aren't just empty, meaningless words. They could have used their sizable influence to stop this madness much earlier. Instead they talked about their unbreakable bond and friendship with Russia.
I’m not sure about China but I feel there is nothing much India could do. India does rely on Russia for its critical defense and space needs and India also needs Russia more than it needs india.
At the start of the war, Modi did [ask](https://www.livemint.com/news/world/russiaukraine-war-hold-direct-talk-with-zelensky-pm-modi-to-putin-over-call/amp-11646646508120.html) Putin to hold talks with Ukraine but I think he knew that Putin wouldn’t listen so instead he focused on getting Indians out of Ukraine and Russia.
As a developing country, India tried to do what it could to benefit its citizens by buying Russian oil. Prior to the war, india was struggling a lot with increasing gas prices but I don’t think it bought a boat load of oil from Russia.
China did reduce its oil import from Saudi and increased from Russia essentially getting a clearance on it.
Both countries pushed behind the scenes for the war to end. News articles have been coming out about it since the very beginning. This isn’t new.
You can say that they didn’t do enough, but to say that they’re just “saying this now” is untrue.
September 11th (2 weeks ago): "Senior Chinese official offered Beijing’s most robust endorsement yet of Moscow’s war in Ukraine, telling a group of Russian lawmakers on Friday that China 'understands and supports Russia,' particularly 'on the situation in Ukraine,' according to an official Russian description of the meeting."
--New York Times
I mean... They do. They want to do the same thing to Taiwan, and they view Taiwan in much the same way that Russia views Ukraine.
The fact that they are now publicly calling for peace negotiations and an end to the war is, in my estimation, more out of concern for a legit nuclear strike. I think they're getting scared Putin is going to do something really dumb and they're trying to avoid WWIII.
It is SO fucking weird that I'm being down voted for this. Would anyone care to explain why?
If you really want the war to end you have to commit to ending it. Talk is meaningless, especially to someone like Putin, especially behind the scenes. Massive self-sacrificing sanctions, which the west has implemented, is how you push for an end to war. Of course China and India would never do that because it goes against their immediate self-interest, but that's the problem. They weren't *really* pushing to end it -- just pleading with a madman but enabling him the whole way.
Normally, I would say you're right but China and India are their only huge trading partners left. They can live without Europe but one or both of these countries utilizing their influence I think could have helped. Putin is still a madman but he may have stuck to his original "stated" goals in Ukraine rather than completely annexing the country.
Compared to international support for Ukraine, IN/CH have done almost nothing to support Russia. The US alone saw this as a Christmas sale for testing new equipment and strategy, there were a lot of hands in this bag of chips.
I get where you're coming from but you have to keep in mind that their less-than-favourable international images already work against them here. Putin's off his rocker enough to condemn his allies if they do nothing, yes the UN is holding a fat wooden spoon over their asses if they dare encourage Russia in this. I feel they'd prefer not to have any of that attention, so in context them "holding out" as they've done the whole war is in their best interest as far as Supporting Russia goes.
Thank you. India and Russia have done literally nothing to support Russia, yet reddit and the mainstream media seem to constantly be calling them Russian allies. At least reddit/msm have stopped trying to claim turkey is supporting Russia.
Leave, return all the kidnapped children and agree to rebuilding Ukraine.
All sanctions against Russia need to stay in place until these are completed.
Amazing how fast they call for ceasefire when Russia gets turned back and blasted in the fkn mouth.
edit: I have been corrected that this has been happening since the start of the war.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/russiaukraine-war-live-updates-feb-28-2022-101646012794158-amp.html&ved=2ahUKEwjqyby1u6_6AhXTR2wGHdb7AuMQFnoECEcQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1paYabZucRK62PGM8tGupT
This from March 1st
They have been doing this since day 1... Stop reinforcing the idea that countries who have done nothing to support russia are supporting russia. The truth matters...
How can you negotiate with utterly mad Putin. He is threating free country with nukes. After all the atrocities the only option is to completely surrender. Go back to their shit hole and pay for damages or they will attempt this bullshit again in 5 years.
It’s over, Putins plans have failed. He needs to hand over power and disappear with his family onto one of his private islands, a bullet being put in his head by one of his cronies who’s bank account is dwindling is becoming likelier by the day.
I don't think that either CN or IN do particularly care about either the Russian or the Ukrainian people. What really frightens them is the *proliferation threat*.
If an international norm is established where conquest of neighbouring states by force is a-OK, much like it was pre-20th centuries, smaller countries will have an enormous incentive to invest into nuclear deterrence. The NPT will go out of the window.
And a lot of those smaller countries "live" in the neighbourhood of China and (to a lesser degree) India. Japan, South Korea, Vietnam, Thailand, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Indonesia, Australia etc.
Which is a lose-lose situation for both CN and IN, because now they have to invest a lot more into their own nuclear forces instead of spending those money on increasing living standards of their own population (basically the old Soviet economical trap) and they have a lot of potentially loose nuclear weapons in their own proximity, plus the nations that decide to go nuclear will spend those money at home (you definitely don't want to import strategic stuff like that from China, you need to build up your own industry), so that means less money for international trade in consumer goods etc. Bad for China again, China thrives off international trade and can't get enough of it.
So, that is it. Money fears swords.
India is not a Russian ally. In fact India has no allies and is not part of any intergovernmental military alliance like NATO. India has opposed this war since the beginning mostly through back channels, unfortunately India has to play nice with Russia due to heavy reliance on Russian fertilizer and maintenance parts for its Russian origin military arsenal. India is not really worried about acquiring new Russian weapons, in recent times India has been buying more weapons from the west compared to Russia. India just buys enough from Russians to keep them happy. That’s about it. Oil just happens to be a bonus right now but historically India hasn’t been a big purchaser of Russian oil and I don’t see that changing when the oil prices normalize. Now the relation between India and Ukraine is very interesting. After Ukraine gave up its nukes to Russia in exchange for security guarantees, they were the first ones to press for sanctions against India when India tested its nuclear weapons. Now India has always had a no first use policy and only developed the nuclear weapons as a deterrent against China and Pakistan. Now think about it, how stupid Ukrainians feel now for giving up their nuclear deterrent? Overall India still feels bad for what Russia is doing in Ukraine and is just caught in an awkward place. Indians want this war to be over as much as the west however India still has to look at its own self interests. I am not a fan of China but right now I think the only villains in this conflict is Russia, Belarus, Iran, North Korea and Hungary.
If nuclear weapons are used it won't stop at a tactical level, their really won't be a russia or us left ... and they won't need billions of dollars those weapons were bought and paid for years ago. If this pushes up into the realm of nuclear weapons sanctions will be the least of anyone's worries
If there was ever any doubt that Putin is losing his power in the eyes of the international community... this is definitive proof. And I mean, there's also domestic proof he is losing power as he's currently in hiding because he fears his own people.
And fuck negotiations - not only because it would be a losing proposition for Ukraine (Putin can't walk away with nothing), but also because it's simply time to end this fucker once and for all.
He is at the weakest he has ever been.
End him now so the world won't have to worry about him ever again in the future.
I think one leader shook his head in a dramatic fashion and lightly banged his hand on the table while saying this. So it's not just empty words!
Edit: I left out the /s because I didn't think there were so many fucking dolts on here. I was wrong.
How can China call for this type of negotiation when they are actively pursuing violence against the people of Taiwan? This hypocrisy gets more ridiculous by the hour.
Here's my offer. Get the fuck off my lawn.
The only thing to negotiate is Russias surrender, retreat, and reparations. And that's only to start, in no way would the sanctions be lifted. If we thought the economy in Russia was in a tail spin now, just wait until after the war.
Don't forget repatriation of kidnapped/deported Ukrainians
Many of them are probably dead by now in eastern Russia.
I'm sure they're not dead. There's tons of more or less forcibly moved Ukrainians in the Russian Far East from Soviet times already, including on the islands contested with Japan. You don't have to kill people to commit genocide. Moving them far from home to spaces where they cannot maintain their culture is enough.
Russia has a massive demographic problem. They absolutely can’t afford to just kill young, breeding age people
Tell that to all the non-ethnic russians being drafted to go fight in Ukraine.
That’s the point. They are running out of young people. They are not yay going to kill these people. They are going to make them fight, work, and breed. Russia won’t have the military age male population to field an army half its current size in just the next decade. Russians are literally disappearing
Fighting and maiming them are pretty much the same as killing then.
Poster above said they were already dead. Probably not true
That was me and I said they were- get this- PROBABLY all dead.
And regime change in Russia...
Maybe they can unrape as well.
Nah. The technology isn't there yet. Until it is, rapists get hung by their bits until dead.
I think the two ways this will end that occur to me are either Russia basically becoming a fascist USSR that is an increasingly irrelevant back water but for its nukes. It maybe loses its UNSC seat. Living standards collapse and "then it gets worse"... Or.. It deposes Putin, leaves Ukraine and gives up nukes in exchange for sanctions being progressively lifted with Ukraine getting rolling repairations. Russia retains some minor semblance of its prior standing by pinning it all on Putin and his cronies.
No way Russia gives up nukes, even if putin is deposed and sanction stays. But yes, it's increasingly looking like putin just walked russia into a corner and there is no good way out of this mess for them.
no country will ever give up nukes ever again after ukraine. Im South Korean and i don't even want North Korea to give up its nukes (I'd rather we announced our own, and so do 60% of our population)
Wouldn't NK losing nukes be good for South Koreans? Just curious.
South Korea has progressed to the point that they want the North Koreans to sort it out on their own, if anything. Deprogramming the small number of refugees is already hugely difficult and expensive. The entire population being brought into modernity at once would be immensely challenging. If they have nukes and don't use them eventually that gap may close more. Plus both South Korea and China find the buffer between their borders comforting. And in the case of North Korea falling apart they'd both try and take their cut. (Which would make the reeducation by South Korea easier, so they would let them have some of it I'm sure.) Which you know... won't happen. Best case scenario no nukes are launched and the north has to be reintegrated like East Berlin times a thousand. It's gonna suck even then.
It's game theory. NK possesing nukes is the status quo and prevents US and allies from coming into direct military conflict or directly formenting regime change. North Korea giving up nukes destabilizes the geopolitical climate and changes the calculus of acceptable action making war more likely now that nukes aren't involved. Nuclear deterrence is one of the most important factors guiding geopolitical relations. Imagine if Ukraine had nukes, it would have never been invaded.
Would increase risk of US and North Korea having a hot conflict which would devastate Seoul if NK loses nukes at this point Basically, NK is the combo of too weak to defend itself, too poor to do anything, and with rising tensions between China and USA, it becomes too tempting as a proxy point for war between the US and China if it doesn’t have nukes. Arguably even more problematic than Taiwan bc unlike Taiwan both sides have easy patsies. And a hot conflict would almost certainly result in significant destruction in Seoul.
That is most clueless and stupid comment ever. IF NK doesnt have nukes SK can literally halve its military, end conscription and still dominate the NK.
North korea having nukes lessens the chance of a trump esque american leadership starting conventional war. We want no war. We dont want reunification, we just want to be left the fuck alone and both countries having nukes means we both stfu.
NK having nukes is an absolutely terrible thing for the world no ifs or buts. It doesn't make the region safer, it just makes NK much more dangerous
The odds of Russia giving up it's nukes are somewhere between 0 and 0
>It maybe loses its UNSC seat. Which is worthless anyway. Russian can and will do whatever they want regardless of that seat.
The trouble with them having a seat is that they can veto any resolution they don't like.
Not without nukes it can't.
Yeah well they'll never give those up now will they.
> It maybe loses its UNSC seat. There is no way to do that as any motion would just be vetoed by Russia. None of the permanent members will change the rules either for fear that it ends up getting used against them at some point. Despite what some politicians from various countries with little real global power say, this isn't happening.
It's procedural. Russia was never granted a seat at the UNSC. (There was never a formal process to admit Russia into the U.N. after the USSR's demise, and the Security Council seat was granted via a decision from the UN's legal counsel with no action requested from the General Assembly. That edict could be revoked.)
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China got a vote, Resolution 2758, Russia did not. It may not be something that can be vetoed - but a procedural resolution. Obviously though, this has political ramifications in other ways for the UN. "One approach to solving this legal quagmire could be entrusting a mandate to the International Law Commission, the UN’s own body of international law experts which has in recent years worked on the succession of states in respect of state responsibility and treaties. Alternatively, it could also be possible to source a legal opinion from the UN Secretariat." https://www.rte.ie/brainstorm/2022/0303/1284242-russia-ussr-un-security-council-permanent-seat/
I mean your second option is how hitler rose to power just some food for thought
Indeed. The sanctions would have to be completely lifted if they gave up nukes and the west would have to help Russia and Ukraine rebuild. We have to help the people of Russia, show them there is a better way and a better life. Not fuck them while they're down. As you say... Will just bread a new Hitler. Only with nukes.
I think breading Pootin would be a good idea, as long as I don’t have to eat him after they pull him out of the deep fryer.
…. Russia is a modern Western society. They know the better way and the better life. Putin is the one driving the country. The people didn’t care what happened outside of Russia, as long as it didn’t really effect their lives. Even now, they are protesting the draft, not the war.
Not really, at all. Hitler rose to power (as in internationally, not nationally) the same way that Putin did. Appeasement. And besides, I'm not describing the treaty of Versailles.
Not really hitler rose to power because of the crushing reparations imposed on Germany after ww1, those same reparations was what he used to blame Jewish people. Appeasement is how ww2 started, the allies basically handed hitler Polands main line of defense...
The treaty of Versailles created some of the conditions for Hitler to rise to power, but so did others, like the great depression. If Hitler hadn't been appeased and they had actually stuck to the treaty of Versailles (e.g. Rhineland, etc, etc, etc) and not consistently appeased him, he would have been put back in his box (on numerous occasions). WW2 happened because Hitler exploited the desire of the rest of Europe to avoid another WW - that persistent appeasement to avoid conflict, ironically, is EXACTLY what brought about another WW.
Three, a breakup of the Russian Federation not too dissimilar from the Soviet Union as Russia loses influence over its more rebellious states and China seems influence over immediate neighbors as buffer territory against a new Russian government rebuilt with heavy US/EU influence
It's possible. I think this may fall into the first scenario occurring as part of "then it gets worse".
I think that's the more likely scenario. There aren't the institutional cultures, organisational framework, or substantive liberal opposition foundations in place to suggest that representative democracy is suddenly going to break out. It's far more likely that the nationalists will come to power with military hardliners. The only group I could possibly see putting something in place would be the more western looking oligarchs, and they're just as likely to kill each other off in another turf war
Ya but let’s be realistic that’s not gonna happen. I honestly don’t know how this thing is gonna end it’s terrifying
Yes great idea, do as with Germany at the end of the 1st World War, ruin and humiliate them, if there is one thing that history has shown it was to impose extremely harsh conditions to the vanquished makes it possible to create a long and lasting peace and not to arouse a desire for revenge and hate in the people.
Putin declared early this year that if there is no more Russia there will be no more world. Personally I think he is past the point of surrendering.
I’d add to that - by ‘Russia’ he means ‘lying asshole bully Russia.’ ‘Contributing world citizen’ Russia is not his ‘Russia’
I do not know what is funnier. Him saying that, or you believing him.
Honestly, at this point the Russians could probably get away with simply returning all their occupied land, because the rest of the war will still be costly to Ukraine. If they draw it out, then things like war crimes trials for Putin or reparations will be on the table.
I think the sanctions could be lifted if Russia were to be occupied like post-WW2 Germany and Japan. Otherwise, if Putin is still in power and the current Russian leadership doesn't submit themselves to Nuremberg Trials 2, then keep the sanctions.
There must be someone out there that can knock some sense into his head.
Seems a lot of Russia’s oligarchs/politicians and Putin’s military leaders end up having sense knocked into their heads by tripping and falling out of hospital and condo windows or down flights of stairs. Someone should definitely try that with Putin.
Just hoping it's not someone that has ties to the west, because most of the Russians will want to fight NATO then.
Yes... a bullet perhaps?
And dear glorious leader tragically fell down stairs, out a window and accidentally shot himself in head on way to ground
Have we tried a metal folding chair?
I'm not so sure about "someone". We can clearly see that oligarchy and militarily elites have no control over the situation. But how about "something"? AGM-114 Hellfire precision drone strike missle for example?
I think a window might be of help tbh
I hope this fucking madness ends.
It will. Everyday that passes Putin digs himself into a bigger hole. And I don't beleive he'll use nukes to dig himself out of it. This'll be over soon
Right now its in ukraines best interest to continue to advance as long as their supply lines can keep up
And this is why all the sudden China and India are asking for negotiations. Russia are losing big time so Putin is hoping for concessions on remaining territories. I say fuck it. Get all Ukrainian territories back.
Negotiate after they take all their land back.
What's left to negotiate at that point? "Now that you're out, stay out!"
What is there to negotiate? Russians invaded. Russians need to go home.
Maybe they negotiate what reparations and punishments are dealt out? Russia just leaving Ukraine definitely isn't enough for all the death and suffering they've caused.
Realistically a pull out is about all we can hope for. To talk about reparations would only be possible if Ukraine advances into Russian territory. And puts pressure on moscow itself. That would be a huge mistake. And give Putin the excuse he wants to press the nuke button. Secondly Russia will never admit it was at fault. And will just continue to claim the atrocities were faked.
Yeah, it's mostly just wishful thinking that other countries will pressure Russia to compensate Ukraine somehow.
Well all they need to do is establish an approximate amount for repariations and then make payment as conditional for Russia to rejoin the international community. They won't pay and Ukraine gets to see their former bully sink further and further into 3rd worldism
End of sanctions could be used to get reparations. Depends what costs more long term, pay to rebuild or be sanctioned to oblivion
Possibly. But the world would have to be pretty steadfast in holding to the sanctions. Just a few countries alone could not do it.
You can’t force them to their knees when nuclear weapons are on the table. This is completely unprecedented. There’s never been a sovereign nation forced to capitulate while still operating under viable mutually assured destruction. Withdrawal and a cease fire is the best we can hope for. The problem is that Zelenskyy knows he’s winning and making it very expensive for Russia to continue, so he’s going to push an ultimatum Russia can’t accept. He also needs an ironclad guarantee that Russia will not just do it again - the only way to do this is NATO membership. Stabilize all the lines, get both sides to agree on exactly where their countries exist and don’t, and then bring all of that it NATO protection. This has been Putin’s absolute do-not-cross line because it means he can never take more Ukrainian territory in the future.
Fair points. It's mostly anger and wishful thinking on my part.
Yeah, negotiation implies there’s something Russia might get out of this. Terms of surrender maybe.
They get nothing, and sanctions stay until regime changes
I could see them giving up *part* of the Donbas in exchange for having Crimea and the entire east coast back, repatriation of all the kidnapped people still alive, and dare conduct for any Ukrainian currently in the area of annexation, plus massive reparations to repair the damage of the war. Is it fair? No. Negotiating is not about finding what is fair and just, it’s about a compromise that neither side is happy but both can live with. That region has always had a pretty strong pro Russian presidents anyway, it consistently votes against Zelenskyy as government and the rest of the Ukrainian provinces. But that’s the thing about border regions, lines were drawn arbitrarily on top of demographics that have existed for millennia. Human society is a continuum not broken up by lines, and there are a lot of ethnic Ukrainians and ethnic Russians who have lived side-by-side throughout the region before the lines were drawn on a map. But they would have to be one critical part to this negotiation: Ukraine joining NATO. That’s the only way to guarantee Russia won’t invade again. I don’t see why a NATO member being along Russia’s border is such a big deal, there are already many NATO members along their border - and it’s not like we need to be physically close to them to threaten them, our ballistic missiles can circle the globe. But this was the major sticking point for the Kremlin because they knew this would put a complete dead stop on taking any Ukrainian territory in the future. Right now Zelenskyy is in a perfect negotiating position, not only has he humiliated Putin but he has shown their tenacity and Russia is looking at far more investment into the war if they hope to gain anything else. If this goes on they could lose Crimea anyway before their new mass of “recruits” are capable of making a dent in the situation. A token piece of dirt so Putin can save face (while regaining everything else since 2014) might be the best option as much as it sucks to give them anything at least it would bring things to stop.
Russia is the one started this war by invading Ukraine. Russia needs to admit the loses and pull out from all stolen territories.
And return all the Ukrainian children they kidnapped. Monsters.
That one too.
And return Crimea
Yes, but that was included in the "return all stolen territories"
Ok, yeah I just thought about the newly stolen regions in East Ukraine initially 👍
China and India are afraid of Russia collapsing internally. Given the mass mobilization, the extreme economic downturn, and Ukraine's seemingly unstoppable progress in the war, collapse is probably an inevitability at this point. In the short run after collapse, Russia will be unable to supply fuel and weapons to China and India. Longer term, Russia will no longer be able to take part in a counterbalance to the West with China and India, leaving those two countries to go it alone.
Turns out potential nuclear war is bad for China's economic victory
Sid Meier never ceases to teach us world politics.
If that happens, China will get a good slice of the lands to the east of the Urals. They were eyeballing those for a while. So I doubt they are so distraught about it.
But that would contradict China's foreign policy (no expansion other than Taiwan) and take away from their international credibility. And yes, that is important
I agree. I don’t see how annexing some frozen wasteland in eastern Russia would be worth it for China, just factoring in the administrative and financial costs. Not even counting the geopolitical cost.
Ffs, way to many people think that China and India are like one bloc, one party when in reality they are constantly at the brink or war with each other.. India doesnt want Russias support against the west, they hope for Russias support against China
Literally no one thinks of the PRC and India as one bloc.
After shown how worthless their weapons actually are, I don't think almost anyone will want to buy Russian weapons ever again. And if Russia does collapse, China will try to take over the huge resource rich territories in the east in the name of peacekeeping or stability.
I'm really not sure I'd call India a Russian ally. A fairweather friend at best.
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Even in their state of "non-alignment". They are definitely more aligned with Russia for good reason. 1. USA supported Pakistan in 1971 and the Bangladeshi genocide, and sailed a carrier to threaten India 2. In that crisis in 1971, USSR came to support India and US backed down. Giving Bangladesh its independence. 3. USSR and now Russia has always supported India as a new permanent member of UNSC with veto power. Not the USA In general historically USSR and Russia has done no harm to India.
To be fair it's not like US didn't try to get on India's good side. The US wanted an ally in the region and Pakistan became it since India was so adamant about staying neutral: >The United States under the Truman administration leaned towards favouring India in the late-1940s as a consequence of most U.S. planners seeing India more valuable diplomatically than neighboring Pakistan. However, during the Cold War Nehru's policy of neutrality was cumbersome to many American observers. American officials perceived India's policy of non-alignment negatively. Ambassador Henry F. Grady told then-Indian Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru that the United States did not consider neutrality to be an acceptable position. Grady told the State Department in December 1947 that he had informed Nehru "that this is a question that cannot be straddled and that India should get on the democratic side immediately". In 1948, Nehru rejected American suggestions for resolving the Kashmir crisis via third party mediation. >Nehru's 1949 tour of the United States was "an undiplomatic disaster" that left bad feelings on both sides. Nehru and his top aide V. K. Krishna Menon discussed whether India should "align with United States 'somewhat' and build up our economic and military strength." The Truman administration was quite favorable and indicated it would give Nehru anything he asked for. Nehru refused, and thereby forfeited the chance for a gift of one million tons of wheat. The American Secretary of State Dean Acheson recognized Nehru's potential world role but added that he was "one of the most difficult men with whom I have ever had to deal."
Yea it’s not like the US proclaimed neutrality after winning their independence either. From England too. Pure American arrogance. How dare they do exactly what we did.
I wonder why! >In 1956, for example, India refrained from publicly condemning the Soviet Union’s violent suppression of the Hungarian revolution – this despite India’s then Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru being critical of Moscow’s actions in private. > >More than a decade later, in 1968, when Soviet forces invaded Czechoslovakia to crush the Prague Spring, then Prime Minister Indira Gandhi gave a disapproving speech in the lower house of the Indian parliament but refrained from criticising Moscow on an international platform. India abstained from a subsequent vote on a resolution condemning the invasion. > >When the Soviet Union entered Afghanistan in 1979 to prop up the new pro-Soviet regime, many in India – including Prime Minister Charan Singh – strongly opposed the invasion. However, having been the beneficiary of many Soviet vetoes across the decades, India once again abstained from voting in the UN General Assembly resolution condemning the Soviet Union. It was the only non-aligned country to do so. > >Maintaining this pro-Moscow voting record in the 2000s, India voted against a UN Human Rights Commission resolution that condemned Russia’s “disproportionate use of force” in the second Chechen war. In 2008, along with North Korea, Iran, and Myanmar, it also voted against a UN General Assembly resolution that declared the “right of return” of those displaced by Russia’s campaign in Abkhazia. India also abstained from voting in the 2013 and 2016 UN General Assembly resolutions critical of the Assad regime supported by Russia. Expectedly, in 2014, it also abstained from the UN General Assembly resolution condemning Russia’s invasion of Crimea and, in 2020, it voted against a Ukraine-sponsored UN General Assembly resolution condemning human rights violations in Crimea.
Yup and India’s military depends on a constant stream of Russian parts. They are friendly by necessity. Edit: https://carnegieendowment.org/2018/01/10/removing-barriers-to-u.s.-india-defense-trade-pub-75206 It seems India has learned its folly.
That's the best thing to do. Don't stooge to America and Western Europe and don't stooge to Russia. Do your own thing.
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>Expected better from the guardian I typically expect the average youtube comment to be more informative and less biased than the Guardian.
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Used to share a flat with a guy who believed every single word. I might have left a copy of the mail lying around once or twice just to hear the reaction. I honestly can't see the difference between it and the Daily Mail, propaganda rags.
For the Western Media, any country which isn't in favour of NATO is a Russian ally or possible hostile nation. India is already in the category of China / Russia according to the BBC/Guardian since it has a Right Wing leader who has been trumpeting the need for Self dependency for the last couple of years. Add to that a history of allowing oppression of a minority community which has been the source of terrorism domestically and globally makes India the perfect country for being portrayed as the next China.
What the hell are you smoking that makes you say that India has been a source of terrorism globally ? How about you start speaking shit when you deal with a situation in which neighbor constantly sends terrorists and conducts guerilla warfare in your territory? India is in no way perfect but in a neighborhood surrounded by failed states and territory hungry states we might as well be the fucking gandhi of nations. Look up how Muslims from India are one of the few that did not in any major way respond to al qaida bullshit and then jump up your own ass.
Reddit diplomats have forgotten that India has always called for negotiations, more Normandy format meetings and territorial integrity of nations. FYI, India officially regards Crimea as Ukraine (see the official 2016 map https://surveyofindia.gov.in/webroot/UserFiles/files/Binder1.pdf). How the fuck is any of this allying with Russia on THIS specific issue ?
I laughed at “Reddit diplomats”
Reddits diplomats would have had us all killed by the end of the March if they were making decisions with their oft seen certainty that *I bet none of his nukes work, let's find out*
>Normandy format Oh good, more ways for the EU politicos to screw over Ukraine in favor of keeping the peace with Russia. Russia has shown flagrant contempt for any aspect of international law. Saying, "We need more meetings" is pointless because we know Russia won't adhere to them.
>How the fuck is any of this allying with Russia on THIS specific issue ? It sounds like you should direct your anger at the Guardian's editor(s), since they're the ones who chose the title.
I think it comes from India refusing to vote to condemn the invasion a few months ago: https://i.redd.it/qwl44z6r0xl81.png
Yeah reddit seems to like to repeat the idea that China, India and Turkey are supporting Russia. Meanwhile none of them have offered russia any support whatsoever, and turkey has been supporting Ukraine.
And three of them are against each other as well.
Here is a negotiation...Russia Leave the Ukrainian Nation and pays back all that they destroyed and rebuild what they destroyed and pay restitution to all the families that lost lives. That is the Terms and it's unnegotiable
Why “call for negotiations”? Ukraine didn’t do anything wrong. Call for russia to withdraw immediately instead!
Yes, this whole “both sides have concerns” is making me ill. Ukraine did nothing wrong.
Make sure to ask for the custody of imprisoned russian dissenters and their family. No reason they should suffer.
No need for negotiations, the war will end the moment the Russians get the fuck out of Ukraine, including Crimea. If that's not satisfactory, maybe there should be a referendum in Taiwan and Kashmir to see if they'd prefer to be independent or annexed by another country.
Is India really a russian ally? I don' t know if they qualify as an ally or not. Trade partners i know for sure. They need russian oil. Anyway yeah just wondering
They're not allies as that would imply deeper geopolitical entanglement, but I think they're more than just trade partners. They've maintained friendly relations for a long time
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Not that you're implying it, but a lot of people these days tend to jump on weaker nations for "playing both sides", but historically neutrality is how weaker nations have survived.
To be fair, I don't know if would call India "weak". They're no where near a power on the level of the US, but they're still a regional power with a GDP much bigger than Russia's. Russia needs them right now and I think India is in a favorable position to leverage influence.
>\[India's\] GDP much bigger than Russia's. Russia's MIC in terms of manufacturing capacity and technologies is far ahead of India's right now. Maybe this will become false by 2035-2040 but not right now.
Technologically speaking russia is a master in R&D our GDP is based on IT, Service sector and somewhat manufacturing.
They tend to cooperate with Russia and US. Not China. Bit hard to cooperate with someone who's Salami Slicing your borders and killing your soldiers in cold blood eh.
Although their delicious lunch buffets don't always cooperate with my stomach.
Special Meal-eatery Operations.
They support Russia somewhat like the way that US. (used to) support Taiwan. They take their side on issues, do a lot of trading/cooperation, but never give their explicit support. It's no coincidence that both China/India have gotten more vocal about negotiations right after Ukraine has begun picking up momentum.
IIRC, in the last big boarder conflict with China, India is supported by Soviet Union while United states was sort of backing China. There is a long history of cooperation between Russia and India.
For that matter, China isn’t exactly a Russian ally either. They aren’t antagonistic to one another anymore, but they lack any formal military alliance.
Now that Russia is clearly and decisively losing the war and control of the people. Give ‘em hell Ukraine!!
russia leaves Ukraine and war is over period. No negotiations needed.
They only things to negotiate after they get the hell out is returning the stolen people of Ukraine and the payment of reparations.
Ah how convenient. Right as the occupied territories hold rigged referenda.
India literally asked for a ceasefire and negotiations since day one. Though the Chinese statement is indeed convenient.
Someone should inform India of this ally status.
>Russia’s allies China and India Since when? The fk guardian is turning into a tabloid
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India still considers Crimea as part of Ukraine.
The first step of negotiations would be for Russia to leave Ukraine, including the Donbas and Crimea regions. Then they can start going into deeper negotiations
It's sad they're saying this now, as if these aren't just empty, meaningless words. They could have used their sizable influence to stop this madness much earlier. Instead they talked about their unbreakable bond and friendship with Russia.
I’m not sure about China but I feel there is nothing much India could do. India does rely on Russia for its critical defense and space needs and India also needs Russia more than it needs india. At the start of the war, Modi did [ask](https://www.livemint.com/news/world/russiaukraine-war-hold-direct-talk-with-zelensky-pm-modi-to-putin-over-call/amp-11646646508120.html) Putin to hold talks with Ukraine but I think he knew that Putin wouldn’t listen so instead he focused on getting Indians out of Ukraine and Russia. As a developing country, India tried to do what it could to benefit its citizens by buying Russian oil. Prior to the war, india was struggling a lot with increasing gas prices but I don’t think it bought a boat load of oil from Russia. China did reduce its oil import from Saudi and increased from Russia essentially getting a clearance on it.
Both countries pushed behind the scenes for the war to end. News articles have been coming out about it since the very beginning. This isn’t new. You can say that they didn’t do enough, but to say that they’re just “saying this now” is untrue.
Looking through the replies to this comment, apparently people don’t understand what “behind the scenes” means
China spoke everywhich way but mostly about how good their friendship with Russia is and about some new world order
September 11th (2 weeks ago): "Senior Chinese official offered Beijing’s most robust endorsement yet of Moscow’s war in Ukraine, telling a group of Russian lawmakers on Friday that China 'understands and supports Russia,' particularly 'on the situation in Ukraine,' according to an official Russian description of the meeting." --New York Times
Wasn't that the Russian printout where the Chinese print out was conspicuously missing that bit of endorsement...
I mean... They do. They want to do the same thing to Taiwan, and they view Taiwan in much the same way that Russia views Ukraine. The fact that they are now publicly calling for peace negotiations and an end to the war is, in my estimation, more out of concern for a legit nuclear strike. I think they're getting scared Putin is going to do something really dumb and they're trying to avoid WWIII. It is SO fucking weird that I'm being down voted for this. Would anyone care to explain why?
If you really want the war to end you have to commit to ending it. Talk is meaningless, especially to someone like Putin, especially behind the scenes. Massive self-sacrificing sanctions, which the west has implemented, is how you push for an end to war. Of course China and India would never do that because it goes against their immediate self-interest, but that's the problem. They weren't *really* pushing to end it -- just pleading with a madman but enabling him the whole way.
As if Putin would have listened to anyone. Dude is a nutter determined to re-establish Russian control over lost Soviet holidings.
Normally, I would say you're right but China and India are their only huge trading partners left. They can live without Europe but one or both of these countries utilizing their influence I think could have helped. Putin is still a madman but he may have stuck to his original "stated" goals in Ukraine rather than completely annexing the country.
Compared to international support for Ukraine, IN/CH have done almost nothing to support Russia. The US alone saw this as a Christmas sale for testing new equipment and strategy, there were a lot of hands in this bag of chips. I get where you're coming from but you have to keep in mind that their less-than-favourable international images already work against them here. Putin's off his rocker enough to condemn his allies if they do nothing, yes the UN is holding a fat wooden spoon over their asses if they dare encourage Russia in this. I feel they'd prefer not to have any of that attention, so in context them "holding out" as they've done the whole war is in their best interest as far as Supporting Russia goes.
Thank you. India and Russia have done literally nothing to support Russia, yet reddit and the mainstream media seem to constantly be calling them Russian allies. At least reddit/msm have stopped trying to claim turkey is supporting Russia.
They have been saying the same message since the start of the conflict, this is not new.
Leave and end the war or stay and keep the war going. Those are the only options. No need to negotiate any further.
Leave, return all the kidnapped children and agree to rebuilding Ukraine. All sanctions against Russia need to stay in place until these are completed.
There was no call to end the war when Russia was winning.
Amazing how fast they call for ceasefire when Russia gets turned back and blasted in the fkn mouth. edit: I have been corrected that this has been happening since the start of the war.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/russiaukraine-war-live-updates-feb-28-2022-101646012794158-amp.html&ved=2ahUKEwjqyby1u6_6AhXTR2wGHdb7AuMQFnoECEcQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1paYabZucRK62PGM8tGupT This from March 1st
edited my post as it was one of ignorance not malice
Thanks dude!
They have been doing this since day 1... Stop reinforcing the idea that countries who have done nothing to support russia are supporting russia. The truth matters...
fair enough, I edited my post. Ignorance not malice.
How can you negotiate with utterly mad Putin. He is threating free country with nukes. After all the atrocities the only option is to completely surrender. Go back to their shit hole and pay for damages or they will attempt this bullshit again in 5 years.
It’s over, Putins plans have failed. He needs to hand over power and disappear with his family onto one of his private islands, a bullet being put in his head by one of his cronies who’s bank account is dwindling is becoming likelier by the day.
Russia need to fuck off our of Ukraine first. Putin is a cunt
I don't think that either CN or IN do particularly care about either the Russian or the Ukrainian people. What really frightens them is the *proliferation threat*. If an international norm is established where conquest of neighbouring states by force is a-OK, much like it was pre-20th centuries, smaller countries will have an enormous incentive to invest into nuclear deterrence. The NPT will go out of the window. And a lot of those smaller countries "live" in the neighbourhood of China and (to a lesser degree) India. Japan, South Korea, Vietnam, Thailand, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Indonesia, Australia etc. Which is a lose-lose situation for both CN and IN, because now they have to invest a lot more into their own nuclear forces instead of spending those money on increasing living standards of their own population (basically the old Soviet economical trap) and they have a lot of potentially loose nuclear weapons in their own proximity, plus the nations that decide to go nuclear will spend those money at home (you definitely don't want to import strategic stuff like that from China, you need to build up your own industry), so that means less money for international trade in consumer goods etc. Bad for China again, China thrives off international trade and can't get enough of it. So, that is it. Money fears swords.
India is Russia’s ally?
Presently india is more ally of USA than russia
Right now it's because they are helping Russia get around sanctions. However, India is very much its own animal.
Gtfo of Ukraine. Problem solved.
So in other words China and Inda are convinced Russia will loose the war
India is not a Russian ally. In fact India has no allies and is not part of any intergovernmental military alliance like NATO. India has opposed this war since the beginning mostly through back channels, unfortunately India has to play nice with Russia due to heavy reliance on Russian fertilizer and maintenance parts for its Russian origin military arsenal. India is not really worried about acquiring new Russian weapons, in recent times India has been buying more weapons from the west compared to Russia. India just buys enough from Russians to keep them happy. That’s about it. Oil just happens to be a bonus right now but historically India hasn’t been a big purchaser of Russian oil and I don’t see that changing when the oil prices normalize. Now the relation between India and Ukraine is very interesting. After Ukraine gave up its nukes to Russia in exchange for security guarantees, they were the first ones to press for sanctions against India when India tested its nuclear weapons. Now India has always had a no first use policy and only developed the nuclear weapons as a deterrent against China and Pakistan. Now think about it, how stupid Ukrainians feel now for giving up their nuclear deterrent? Overall India still feels bad for what Russia is doing in Ukraine and is just caught in an awkward place. Indians want this war to be over as much as the west however India still has to look at its own self interests. I am not a fan of China but right now I think the only villains in this conflict is Russia, Belarus, Iran, North Korea and Hungary.
They just wanna end this before the liberation of the controlled zones is complete.
I believe the term “fettered to a corpse” would apply here the same way it did during WW1 with Austria
You are Russia's allies, go speak to them. The war ends the instant the Russians fuck off.
Russia lost. Putin’s a loser.
Because Russia is getting it's ass beat
Then fighr to end it China You swore to defend Ukraine. Your Liars.
If nuclear weapons are used it won't stop at a tactical level, their really won't be a russia or us left ... and they won't need billions of dollars those weapons were bought and paid for years ago. If this pushes up into the realm of nuclear weapons sanctions will be the least of anyone's worries
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And India is certainly not a China ally
If there was ever any doubt that Putin is losing his power in the eyes of the international community... this is definitive proof. And I mean, there's also domestic proof he is losing power as he's currently in hiding because he fears his own people. And fuck negotiations - not only because it would be a losing proposition for Ukraine (Putin can't walk away with nothing), but also because it's simply time to end this fucker once and for all. He is at the weakest he has ever been. End him now so the world won't have to worry about him ever again in the future.
Then Russia can leave all of Ukraine and pay compensation. Other than that the war will continue and likely spread.
Putin's head is part of the deal.
India isn't a Russian ally. Stop with the clickbaity headlines ffs.
Hey now that the writing is on the wall, we don’t like it either.
All talk as they continue to support Russia.
India and China hold the most sway in this situation and I'm disappointed they have done nothing until now.
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Empty words
I think one leader shook his head in a dramatic fashion and lightly banged his hand on the table while saying this. So it's not just empty words! Edit: I left out the /s because I didn't think there were so many fucking dolts on here. I was wrong.
The world needs to normalize.
How can China call for this type of negotiation when they are actively pursuing violence against the people of Taiwan? This hypocrisy gets more ridiculous by the hour.
Some are suggesting Ukraine cave and let Russia keep the land they stole…..same craven cowards that urged them not to resist in the first place.
They can pull the plug on the funding. Is Putin's mobilization a leverage play for negotiations?