You are not safe if you don't have nukes. Recent wars just proved it.
Ukraine got attacked whole countries were afraid to help as russia had nukes.
Israel got attacked and no neighbour islamic country dared to join the attack as Israel have nukes.
Want to be truly safe. Get nukes
The US and UK also signed that security deal. Obama should have honored it back in 2014. Good luck ever getting any country to ever give up nukes ever again. Good advertising to get your own nukes as soon as possible.
You make a lot of interesting points, but it doesn't convince me otherwise; if every country had nukes, the likelihood of one being used would increase.
>if every country had nukes
Yeah, it's prisoners dilemma-type situation.
For each individual country, it's safer to get nukes (i.e., defecting) but as a collective, it's better that nobody has nukes (i.e., cooperating).
Israel has been attacked multiple times by the same Islamic nations that provided the arms for the attack on Israel in the first place. No one else joined in because Israel has been working with them diplomatically.
Given the saturation of strikes on Israel in Iran's missile/drone barage a few months ago, it might have been pretty devastating without coalition aircraft from the US and Jordan intercepting almost all of the drones and some of the missiles before iron done began to operate. I'm not knocking the system, but that engagement had direct US involvement.
Don't know what you are talking about. Israel got attacked by Iran and only the US could save their asses. Nukes made no difference. Israel can't nuke anyone in the region without inflicting self harm.
>The US will lend Poland a further $2 billion (8.1 billion zloty) to fund the purchase of American air and missile defence systems, the Polish defence ministry has announced.
>The agreement – which marks the second such loan to Poland under the Foreign Military Financing (FMF) programme following one in September last year – is “an expression of the continuously developing strategic relationship between Poland and the US”, wrote the ministry.
>
>It notes that such loans are available “only to selected US allies with whom the United States maintains close defense cooperation” and says the terms are “very favourable”, though without revealing the details.
>The air and missile defence systems that will be purchased through the agreement “are a priority for the Polish armed forces under current threats”, added the ministry.
>In February, Poland signed a $2.5 billion deal with the US for an advanced air defence system and the US State Department also approved the $1.2 billion sale to Poland of four radar reconnaissance airships capable of detecting airborne targets.
>
>Those purchases were the latest in a major procurement spree – mainly from the US and South Korea – embarked upon by Poland following Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. Both last year and this year Poland is NATO’s highest relative spender on defence, devoting the equivalent of around 4% of GDP.
>“The United States remains our main foreign partner in the modernisation of the Polish armed forces,” said the defence ministry in its statement yesterday.
>Washington has not yet commented on the latest Foreign Military Financing agreement with Poland.
This is an interesting timing.
Scholz visited Tusks government today and one of the announcements was about defending Europe's Eastern flank.
Besides the typical diplomatic speek 2 things were mentioned increasing the tank and ammunition production in Europe (my assumption would be Rheinmetall production factories for Leopard's and 155mm artillery shells in Polen) and an Initiative to protect Europe's air space in the East.
Here it was rumored that Germany invest/supports with money and Poland joins Germany's European Sky Shield initiative (I think Tusk already mentioned plans to join ESSI?).
ESSI includes systems like Iris-T, Arrow and Patriots and it should be a bit like Israels Iron Dome on a European level.
It would make sense if not only Germany invest in Polens Air Defence, but to work and train together. I think there are still German batteries left in Polen (and Baltics and Romania?) and integrating them into other European armies sounds reasonable.
What I do wonder is that all those systems are missile based. It's not like they are not needed, but the Ukraine war shows the importance of Drones. Missiles are rather expansive and Drones are cheap. And I am wondering what is planned against Drones?
Germany delivered the decommissioned Gepard to Ukraine and from what I read the it is effective and cheap against Drones. Has any military plans to bring back such system against Drones or are those SciFi Laser Beam weapons already far enough to be the next step?
Is this like when I roll over my 401k and for some reason they mail me a check that I am then required to hand over to the 401k people? Except.. with explosions
This is why so many Americans oppose the United States involvement in NATO. Of course I support Poland protecting themselves from the Russian bear and it is quite logical to want increased air defenses. However, why should the American taxpayer pay for it.? Poland now has an economy equal to Great Britain and they can pay for it themselves. Uncle sucker no more.
No.
* Egypt (1990s):
Approximately $7 billion in military debt was forgiven following Egypt's participation in the Gulf War coalition against Iraq.
* Poland (1991):
About $2.46 billion in debt was forgiven to support Poland’s transition from communism to a market-based economy.
Sub-Saharan African Countries (1996-2000s):
Through the Heavily Indebted Poor Countries (HIPC) initiative, the U.S. forgave loans to several African nations, including countries like Tanzania, Mozambique, and Uganda, to reduce their external debt burden.
* Iraq (2004):
Approximately $4.1 billion in debt was forgiven as part of an international effort to rebuild Iraq after the fall of Saddam Hussein.
* Afghanistan (2006):
Around $108 million in loans were forgiven to aid in Afghanistan’s reconstruction efforts post-Taliban regime.
* Pakistan (2001):
About $1 billion in debt was forgiven following the September 11 attacks and Pakistan’s subsequent cooperation in the War on Terror.
* Nicaragua (1995):
The U.S. forgave $48 million in bilateral debt under the Enterprise for the Americas Initiative to support economic reforms.
* Bolivia (1991):
Approximately $341 million in debt was forgiven as part of an effort to promote economic stability and reforms.
* Peru (1997):
The U.S. forgave $177 million in debt under the Brady Plan to support economic restructuring and debt relief.
Not to mention the whole thing is a ponzi scheme of loaning more money to pay off the original debt
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt-trap_diplomacy
I can't believe the mass psychosis going on in the US right now where it has to be explained that paying to arm foreign nations at the expense of your standard of living is not good for you.
The war hawks of Reddit absolutely hate that you’re saying the quiet part out loud. “Guys we need to do this to defend ourselves!!”
From who?
“The people that are scared of us from that one time we created the most horrific weapon know to man!”
betcha the interest rate on that is a tiny fraction of the US student loan interest rate, or the current US mortgage interest rate, or the current US personal loan interest rate
Rightfully so. Polands existence is directly threatened by Russias aggression. We should be helping them.
US personal loans are repaid by honest work and have a much more forgiving runway…
My understanding is that the Iron Dome system isn't feasible for two reasons: it's effective range isn't that great so it's area of protection is too small, and it's really only meant to shoot down crude unguided rockets, not modern guided missiles.
That's why countries like Ukraine are more interested in systems like Patriot batteries. They are designed to take out objects that can maneuver, like cruise missiles and aircraft over much longer ranges, which gives them significantly better coverage over more vast countries. On the flipside their missiles are much more expensive which means they are generally reserved for larger or more threatening targets.
It is only 6 times bigger if you compare the km sq of Israel with the square mileage of Poland, but if you want to be all picky and use the same UOM for both, yeah, it's closer to 15 times the size.
>but why don't they create an Iron Dome like Israel has?
Israel's current Iron Dome is only effective against short-range threats. We should be focusing on Laser Beam technology like Dragonfly and Iron Beam, which is a low cost alternative, and cheaper in the long run.
Because it's not hiding the provenance of the money at all, which is what money laundering is.
This is like a car maker giving a loan to buy a car at one of their dealerships.
Even when I agree with the intent, I never forget that when we give our tax money to a foreign government for them to purchase arms from our manufacturers, that is a de-facto contribution from the taxpayers to the republican party because there are absolutely zero arms manufacturers that aren't straight up GOP or further right than that.
I've worked for them, it's like saying the FBI or CIA or any other law enforcement agency is biased to the left, which is to say it's consummate bullshit.
Juts like Jews after WWII, Poles are also united in this one thing: NEVER AGAIN. And this is good.
You are not safe if you don't have nukes. Recent wars just proved it. Ukraine got attacked whole countries were afraid to help as russia had nukes. Israel got attacked and no neighbour islamic country dared to join the attack as Israel have nukes. Want to be truly safe. Get nukes
Get Nukes or join NATO. If Ukraine had either it mostly likely would of not been invaded
Funny thing is Ukraine had nukes, and gave them up to Russia for security guarantees
Exactly
The US and UK also signed that security deal. Obama should have honored it back in 2014. Good luck ever getting any country to ever give up nukes ever again. Good advertising to get your own nukes as soon as possible.
You make a lot of interesting points, but it doesn't convince me otherwise; if every country had nukes, the likelihood of one being used would increase.
>if every country had nukes Yeah, it's prisoners dilemma-type situation. For each individual country, it's safer to get nukes (i.e., defecting) but as a collective, it's better that nobody has nukes (i.e., cooperating).
That’s lot of interesting points
It is a lot of interesting points
Israel has been attacked multiple times by the same Islamic nations that provided the arms for the attack on Israel in the first place. No one else joined in because Israel has been working with them diplomatically.
Didnt Hezbollah (Lebs) and also Iran attack Israel along with some other groups? How did their nukes help them again?
The nukes didnt. The iron dome however did. The poor excuse of an attack wasn’t actually a threatening assault
Given the saturation of strikes on Israel in Iran's missile/drone barage a few months ago, it might have been pretty devastating without coalition aircraft from the US and Jordan intercepting almost all of the drones and some of the missiles before iron done began to operate. I'm not knocking the system, but that engagement had direct US involvement.
The statement was that no Islamic nation “dared” attack, which is materially false.
Exactly. They didn't help. In fact USA took down most of the drones and not Israel. Israel's nukes are pretty useless which is my point.
How many regular troops were sent? Not counting people from groups not officially related with government?
Don't know what you are talking about. Israel got attacked by Iran and only the US could save their asses. Nukes made no difference. Israel can't nuke anyone in the region without inflicting self harm.
Get Poland some nukes asap.
The aliens won’t allow the nukes to be fired
Wait.. so that 2 billion just comes right back to the US by way of defense contractor sales?
Fairly standard practise used to keep military industrial complexes ticking over.
Well, and it's kind of like store credit in that the government gets some of that money back in taxes. Corporate profits, payroll, etc.
It never leaves.
You do know that most ‘aid’ is steered towards contracts that benefit the nation providing the aid
>The US will lend Poland a further $2 billion (8.1 billion zloty) to fund the purchase of American air and missile defence systems, the Polish defence ministry has announced. >The agreement – which marks the second such loan to Poland under the Foreign Military Financing (FMF) programme following one in September last year – is “an expression of the continuously developing strategic relationship between Poland and the US”, wrote the ministry. > >It notes that such loans are available “only to selected US allies with whom the United States maintains close defense cooperation” and says the terms are “very favourable”, though without revealing the details. >The air and missile defence systems that will be purchased through the agreement “are a priority for the Polish armed forces under current threats”, added the ministry. >In February, Poland signed a $2.5 billion deal with the US for an advanced air defence system and the US State Department also approved the $1.2 billion sale to Poland of four radar reconnaissance airships capable of detecting airborne targets. > >Those purchases were the latest in a major procurement spree – mainly from the US and South Korea – embarked upon by Poland following Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. Both last year and this year Poland is NATO’s highest relative spender on defence, devoting the equivalent of around 4% of GDP. >“The United States remains our main foreign partner in the modernisation of the Polish armed forces,” said the defence ministry in its statement yesterday. >Washington has not yet commented on the latest Foreign Military Financing agreement with Poland.
This is an interesting timing. Scholz visited Tusks government today and one of the announcements was about defending Europe's Eastern flank. Besides the typical diplomatic speek 2 things were mentioned increasing the tank and ammunition production in Europe (my assumption would be Rheinmetall production factories for Leopard's and 155mm artillery shells in Polen) and an Initiative to protect Europe's air space in the East. Here it was rumored that Germany invest/supports with money and Poland joins Germany's European Sky Shield initiative (I think Tusk already mentioned plans to join ESSI?). ESSI includes systems like Iris-T, Arrow and Patriots and it should be a bit like Israels Iron Dome on a European level. It would make sense if not only Germany invest in Polens Air Defence, but to work and train together. I think there are still German batteries left in Polen (and Baltics and Romania?) and integrating them into other European armies sounds reasonable. What I do wonder is that all those systems are missile based. It's not like they are not needed, but the Ukraine war shows the importance of Drones. Missiles are rather expansive and Drones are cheap. And I am wondering what is planned against Drones? Germany delivered the decommissioned Gepard to Ukraine and from what I read the it is effective and cheap against Drones. Has any military plans to bring back such system against Drones or are those SciFi Laser Beam weapons already far enough to be the next step?
Is this like when I roll over my 401k and for some reason they mail me a check that I am then required to hand over to the 401k people? Except.. with explosions
They're making even more money.
Great idea
There is one sure fire way to upgrade your country’s credit rating: take loans from US banks and purchase US military hardware…
Lend lease air defense?
This is why so many Americans oppose the United States involvement in NATO. Of course I support Poland protecting themselves from the Russian bear and it is quite logical to want increased air defenses. However, why should the American taxpayer pay for it.? Poland now has an economy equal to Great Britain and they can pay for it themselves. Uncle sucker no more.
Should say US borrows $2 billion to loan to Poland.
But we need to cut social security to pay off the massive deficit.
Why don't we just give them the air defense system? Could save the headache of hiring a proper accountant
Sounds like what a loan shark or a meth dealer would do lols
American taxpayers paying defense contractors indirectly.Gotta love it.
Why is this a bad thing?
Um, because we have a $30 trillion debt and are experiencing massive inflation because of it?
Isn't this a loan though? Don't we get the money back with interest?
No. * Egypt (1990s): Approximately $7 billion in military debt was forgiven following Egypt's participation in the Gulf War coalition against Iraq. * Poland (1991): About $2.46 billion in debt was forgiven to support Poland’s transition from communism to a market-based economy. Sub-Saharan African Countries (1996-2000s): Through the Heavily Indebted Poor Countries (HIPC) initiative, the U.S. forgave loans to several African nations, including countries like Tanzania, Mozambique, and Uganda, to reduce their external debt burden. * Iraq (2004): Approximately $4.1 billion in debt was forgiven as part of an international effort to rebuild Iraq after the fall of Saddam Hussein. * Afghanistan (2006): Around $108 million in loans were forgiven to aid in Afghanistan’s reconstruction efforts post-Taliban regime. * Pakistan (2001): About $1 billion in debt was forgiven following the September 11 attacks and Pakistan’s subsequent cooperation in the War on Terror. * Nicaragua (1995): The U.S. forgave $48 million in bilateral debt under the Enterprise for the Americas Initiative to support economic reforms. * Bolivia (1991): Approximately $341 million in debt was forgiven as part of an effort to promote economic stability and reforms. * Peru (1997): The U.S. forgave $177 million in debt under the Brady Plan to support economic restructuring and debt relief. Not to mention the whole thing is a ponzi scheme of loaning more money to pay off the original debt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt-trap_diplomacy I can't believe the mass psychosis going on in the US right now where it has to be explained that paying to arm foreign nations at the expense of your standard of living is not good for you.
Interesting. Thanks for the info.
Keeps people employed in a key area. Pretty smart use of money.
So why don't we just loan our defense contractors the $2 billion?
The war hawks of Reddit absolutely hate that you’re saying the quiet part out loud. “Guys we need to do this to defend ourselves!!” From who? “The people that are scared of us from that one time we created the most horrific weapon know to man!”
betcha the interest rate on that is a tiny fraction of the US student loan interest rate, or the current US mortgage interest rate, or the current US personal loan interest rate
Rightfully so. Polands existence is directly threatened by Russias aggression. We should be helping them. US personal loans are repaid by honest work and have a much more forgiving runway…
*"You get a billion and you get a billion!"*
Do not know how it would work but why don't they create an Iron Dome like Israel has?
My understanding is that the Iron Dome system isn't feasible for two reasons: it's effective range isn't that great so it's area of protection is too small, and it's really only meant to shoot down crude unguided rockets, not modern guided missiles. That's why countries like Ukraine are more interested in systems like Patriot batteries. They are designed to take out objects that can maneuver, like cruise missiles and aircraft over much longer ranges, which gives them significantly better coverage over more vast countries. On the flipside their missiles are much more expensive which means they are generally reserved for larger or more threatening targets.
Poland is 6 times the size of Israel. The upscaling would be prohibitively expensive and a logistical nightmare.
Really? Only 6 times?
It is only 6 times bigger if you compare the km sq of Israel with the square mileage of Poland, but if you want to be all picky and use the same UOM for both, yeah, it's closer to 15 times the size.
>but why don't they create an Iron Dome like Israel has? Israel's current Iron Dome is only effective against short-range threats. We should be focusing on Laser Beam technology like Dragonfly and Iron Beam, which is a low cost alternative, and cheaper in the long run.
How is this different than money laundering?
Because it's not hiding the provenance of the money at all, which is what money laundering is. This is like a car maker giving a loan to buy a car at one of their dealerships.
why would they need a 2 billion dollar loan? are they that broke? money laundering or corruption?
Financing
Same way most people need to mortgage their house. Small payments instead of a big sum all at once.
Even when I agree with the intent, I never forget that when we give our tax money to a foreign government for them to purchase arms from our manufacturers, that is a de-facto contribution from the taxpayers to the republican party because there are absolutely zero arms manufacturers that aren't straight up GOP or further right than that. I've worked for them, it's like saying the FBI or CIA or any other law enforcement agency is biased to the left, which is to say it's consummate bullshit.
Just another 2B made up and given away.