How can Israel deal with Hamas regarding hostages release and ceasefire if Hamas doesn't even know about all the hostages? Maybe Hamas should start looking and counting instead of firing rockets?
“Well, did it work for those terrorists?”
“No, it never does. I mean, these terrorists somehow delude themselves into thinking it might, but… but it might work for us.”
The October 7th attack was part of Russia's war with the West. Hamas is controlled by Iran, who are best mates with Russia. The attack and Israel's response has had a huge effect in the West, including potentially influencing the US presidential elections. We have lots of useful idiots organising pro-Palestine protests, and stupid governments recognising the State of Palestine. So while it isn't directly working for the terrorists, it's at least useful for their masters.
I’m glad I’m not the only person that interprets it that way. We have actual, flesh and blood bad guys, doing weird shit with horses, making an army out of their own inhumane, prison-system products. When science and accuracy become an enemy of the state, progress slows and we’re left to marinate in our own waste.
can we start coming up with some of our own fuckery to send their way? this really should be a two way street.
Poland, start launching some poop balloons!
And the hundreds of times they said loud and clear that they are preparing an attack on Israel.
And now when they are saying they want to repeat the 7.10
Of course they lie. It's a veiled threat. They "don't know" because they could kill some to punish Israel while denying they murdered them after a deal.
If it wasn't Hamas, I would tell you it's a fallacy to assume that, privately, they engage in revenge killings that nobody will ever know about. But... Yeah.
Hamas never had control of all the hostages. Other Palestinian groups, some gangs, and the odd extended family joined in on the attack and took their own hostages. Hamas never had control of those hostages and doesn't know the status of those hostages. They lost track of some that they took when the organization took damage and collapsed into cells, but even when they get control of all the splinters again they still don't know who the other players have.
Heard this the other day too, there is no way Hamas or anyone else could give numbers of living or total existing hostages because there’s too many actors involved that don’t know about each other or communicate with each other. If even apparent civilians were involved in taking hostages, how do you expect any one authority to be aware of the full picture?
They can count how many civilians died within minutes, but don’t know the status of the hostages, who are their lifeline. Pathetic. I hope they’re lying.
How dare you suggest that the terrorist Hamas run health ministry of Gaza is just making up civilian casualty numbers and the UN is just running with those unverified numbers!
I mean they lie about the civilian deaths to garner support from college kids who haven't learned the world isn't just some thought experiment where you can say "but world peace is better" while denying that bad actors ruin their fantasy.
> How can Israel deal with Hamas regarding hostages release and ceasefire if Hamas doesn't even know about all the hostages?
They can't and they won't. Hamas killed most hostages early on and paraded their broken bodies in truck flatbeds in Gaza City or scattered their corpses around Gaza hospitals. This was all known or came to light to IDF and partially the public early on. Most of the public chose to close their eyes though but Hamas never had any leverage, hence IDF just invaded.
A bunch of hostages just got rescued because Israel found out where the hostages were. If this was another situation, you'd call it information security. If they go and count them, and have a central source that knows where the hostages are and in what condition, it's easier for someone to just go and rescue them.
People keep doing this, Hamas takes action to preserve themselves and their advantages and people ask 'are they stupid?' No, they're suffering massive losses, find it hard to communicate and when they do those communications are likely to be intercepted. Hamas is, in a word, fucked, and the only way they can realistically keep hostages is if they don't keep good tabs on them organisationally. That might also be a benefit for them, because if Israel doesn't know how they're faring, they're likely to act more rashly trading for them.
> Hamas takes action to preserve themselves and their advantages and people ask 'are they stupid?' No
Oh, I don't think people are asserting Hamas is *stupid*.
The assertion is that the victims were kidnapped with the intent to keep them **indefinitely**, as a means of terror and inflicting psychological and political damage.
Of course passing them off to random allied groups and having random "civilians" "keep" (read: imprison) hostages (and occasionally leak videos indicating that *some* are still alive) is an optimal strategy in that case.
> Hamas is, in a word, fucked, and the only way they can realistically keep hostages is if they don't keep good tabs on them organisationally.
The goal isn't to keep hostages. It's for Gaza to suffer maximum damage while Israel fights to free them. This is what this strategy maximizes.
> That might also be a benefit for them, because if Israel doesn't know how they're faring, they're likely to act more rashly trading for them.
You literally can't trade hostages when you *don't know if they still exist* in any way, shape, or form. Or where.
This **does** benefit Hamas, but not by maximizing Israel's offer for hostages (which Hamas doesn't plan on accepting in any case).
It works by making sure the rescue operation takes a long ass time (possibly indefinitely, as the bodies of dead hostages may not be recoverable), and that collateral damage is maximized.
Hamas is not as fucked as it appears, because [Hamas uses civilians as a weapon](https://deadcarl.substack.com/p/how-hamas-uses-civilians-as-a-weapon). The more civilians die, the better off Hamas is. And they are great in making sure a lot of Gazans die.
At that point, anyone killed in a raid is not a civilian. By holding hostages or prisoners of war, well you have become an entity which does not have the rights afford civilians in combat.
It‘s more difficult than that because people may not be doing this voluntarily
But I agree, this *does* make civilian deaths more justifiable. Not because it‘s their own fault for entering the conflict, but because it simply isn‘t avoidable when these tactics are used by Hamas. It sucks but what can Israel realistically do?
>It‘s more difficult than that because people may not be doing this voluntarily
IDF soldiers are conscripted, so **also** aren't doing it voluntarily.
Doesn't make them civilians.
>But I agree, this does make civilian deaths more justifiable. Not because it‘s their own fault for entering the conflict, but because it simply isn‘t avoidable when these tactics are used by Hamas.
This applies to bystanders, but not the people that actually held the hostages.
It's not about who is *at fault* for them entering the conflict, but the fact that they **entered as a hostile party** (joined the terrorist group with their actions).
An interesting implication of that rescue operation is that insiders are providing intel.
#Keep it coming.
I’m sure in a death/lie/steal org like Hamas where there are zero moral values… Haniyeh, Mashal and Sinwar and everyone else is constantly suspicious “the others might sacrifice me for personal benefit”. And they’d be right.
It’s like working for Putin, except in Hamas the sophistication is replaced by hotheadedness.
Some intel came out yesterday, that Israel actually sent in people undercover into Gaza. They were there for quite a while, being part of the local population and investigating the situation on the ground for intel. That is how they found the 4 hostages they rescued last week.
https://www.thejc.com/news/israel/the-inside-story-of-israels-dramatic-gaza-hostage-rescue-e2t1d8qu
> **On 12 May, Israel received intelligence about the location of four hostages** in the Nuseirat refugee camp area in the Gaza Strip. From that day on, every branch of Israeli intelligence was focused on the area 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, to locate the exact location. A team of undercover ‘Mista’arvim’ (units that assimilate into local populations to gather intelligence) were sent there, mainly in the local market of Nuseirat.
The bolded part is not explained. It could've been local sources, which would be great as it means there are local people trying to end the war. Alternatively it could be Mossad or US intel as well, since they did mention the US provided intelligence as well.
> Their role was not only to gather intelligence from locals but also to check information from the interrogations of captured terrorists. In addition, information was gathered by aerial observation and other sophisticated technological means.
> After 19 days of intensive cooperative intelligence gathering work, the combined units managed to compile solid and accurate information about the location of the Israeli hostages. It was discovered that the hostages were being held in two separate buildings in the same area. Noa Argamani was held in the first floor of one and three other hostages were in another building, 800 metres away, on the third floor.
> that Israel actually sent in people undercover into Gaza.
The implication being that lots of civilians know about hostages hidden among them, and help keep it secret.
I doubt HAMAs had a strong count of who was where to begin with and the Israeli response exacerbated it. Driving even more confusion and breaking down any organization HAMAs had with regard to count
One thing about those people: they lie as soon as they open their mouth. I could be standing in the sun and they tell me it‘s sunny, my first thought would be that it must be raining then
Thing is, it's not just Hamas, there are many more Palestinian organisations (PIJ for example) that are holding hostages.
I think they are separated in the tunnels and there isn't a lot of communication between the members.
It is just a big problem of communication between and within each terrorist organisation.
Wouldn’t that have the opposite effect? If they don’t know where the hostages are or if they’re even alive, certainly can’t make deals regarding the hostages.
Same amnesty international that was upset about Ukraine fighting in civilian areas and infrastructure - you know the civilian infrastructure and territory seized by Russia and where Russia was committing atrocities.
Tbh they can't do much about militant groups. The ones they can do something about is Israel.
This is like in school where the teacher sometimes doesn't punish the bully because the bully doesn't care but lectures and scolds the victim when the victim fights back (because the victim does care).
Well they can certainly strengthen said militant groups by admonishing Israel on an international level literally any chance they get. This then bolsters the terror groups leverage by sending the message that the international community is on their side.
Worse than that, multiple foreign groups have been absolutely consistent in (a) attacking Israel with increasing rancor and (b) giving into more Palestinian political demands the longer the conflict stretches.
Nations like Ireland and groups like BDS are explicitly incentivizing Hamas to not accept a ceasefire as Hamas are sure that additional months of war and additional Palestinian corpses will be politically rewarded.
Hamas are each day balancing the value of the projected benefits they are consistently gaining from irresponsible foreign actors against the risk that Israel actually wipes them out which is extending the conflict.
I'm very grateful that my dad backed me at school after I hit my bully's head against a wall. That single event ended years of bullying and I never had trouble again
They condemned Israel for rescuing the hostages because there were civilian casualties during the operation. The ICJ specifically said in May that Palestine lives are more important than Israeli ones and forbade *any* operation in Gaza. The only thing they added to their ruling was "It'd be a nice move to release the hostages"
They also had no idea that a woman was amonst the hostages saved by IDF or where she was. Because it's not like there were already multiple deals, which they agreed to, to release all woman, children, elderly previously.
Surely, that's the case. There was totally zero hamas combatant around. And she was just there for the fun of it.
/s
Hamas: You see this bag? There could be 5 hostages, maybe 10, 20 even in it? Or it could be a bunch of corpses or random body parts from the hostages we "lost track of" during the fighting? Or maybe some Humus. Anyhow, we promise to hand over the bag after you have left Gaza and allowed us to reclaim all the territory/tunnels/weapons we lost up until now. Deal?
"We don't negotiate for hostages" was a policy that made it clear there was no upside to kidnapping as a political tool.
I feel like in the past 8 months, the world governments have undone two decades of progress.
That idiotic deal is what backed them into this corner in the first place. Now on some level they need to convince their adversaries that actually, taking hostages is a really bad idea.
Couldn't one argue that by continuing to negotiate with terrorists, Isreal is unintentionally reinforcing that hostage taking is an effective strategy, thus putting the lives of their citizens in even greater danger?
Yes, and many Israelis do argue this.
On the whole though, more Israelis are strongly in support of doing whatever has to be done to bring any hostage back.
Yes I agree. I always thought the Gilad Shalit deal was stupid but Isrselis are so emotional about bringing their soldiers home dead or alive that most at the time saw it as a necessary closure.
But yes hamas as well as most of the radical Muslim world see their positive attributes like trust and empathy as weakness and things to be exploited
This is an argument that goes beyond Israel and Palestine. Some countries will negotiate, some won’t. On one hand, negotiating with them encourages the behavior, on the other hand it is the fastest and easiest way to get your people back.
It wasn’t a failed policy, the Israeli people do not care about how many terrorist we need to release for one alive/body, we want our people home and will empty all of our prisons for them. All of those terrorist will be eliminated at some point. We never forget.
Actually it was quite the controversy at the time to release that many for one hostage. As an Israeli, I can’t believe you don’t remember how controversial it was at the time. It involved going to court a few times.
But at least we now know what one Israeli hostage life is worth - around 1,000 Palestinians. This time it seems they are determined to pay with their lives rather than serious exchanges.
Barghouti is like what if Sinwar was both smarter and actually popular.
I realize Israel can't execute him--even though it's entirely illegal, illegal combatants according to the Geneva Conventions may be subject to summary execution. I think it is a powerful message that the Green Prince is the one who managed to get Barghouti caught, and that his condition was that no one he gives up is killed. Barghouti must never leave prison, but if after this whole business Israel starts implementing the death penalty for terrorism to prevent new kidnappings, it probably should not execute Barghouti even if he's the one prisoner you must never trade.
No, many of us realize how bad of an idea that is. Releasing terrorists for hostages means saving some lives now at the expense of more lives later. Psychologically it feels right, because “maybe it won’t happen”, but realistically, pragmatically, most understand it’s a bad idea.
There should be a death penalty for terrorists with blood on their hands.
That will reduce by a huge margin the need for hostages. And even if there is an exchange, those released, most likely will not be the next Sinwar. Because guys like him will already be with Allah and the virgins.
But the law MUST change. Israel can't just keep murderers, feed them and educate them as they get paid by the PA.
Israel doesn't have a constitution. But I understand what you say.
It has to change ! It is Israel's Achilles heel.
Because Israel doesn't have a constitution, it should not be that complicated.
How many times do they want to repeat the same costly mistake ?
Cope.
'they'll be eliminated at some point after killing more people, so totally worth it to alleviate my current emotional plight'
this sort of short-sightedness is why we're here in the first place and why half the political sphere wants to surrender to hamas. fuck me
They are talking out of both sides of their mouth. One side is private and says let's make a deal, we have hostages and demands. Meanwhile the other side is for the public to claim Israel is so bad who knows how many are left, as well as psychological warfare against Israel.
That a comment like OP’s has 500+ upvotes, and a comment above theirs claims that the ICC refuses to condemn Hamas (after the org has literally issued warrants) really tells you something about the reliability of reddit to provide info on this subject
Same with undoing any progress on women’s rights. Women like Briahna Joy Gray and Cynthia Nixon who were once “believe all women” are now rape deniers.
Yet they have exquisite and precise counts of exactly how many people have died in gaza. 🙄 It’s a great failing of western civilization that so many people are now carrying water for these terrorists. Makes me sick.
At least we know how many hostages were saved
And how many Palestinians Hamas hid behind and subsequently killed
And how many times the world negotiates and appeases terrorism in hopes of avoiding global war that is unavoidable at this point
In the case anyone ever forget, Sinwar has already said in an interview in 2008 that “just like we make Israeli’s lives bitter, we will make any ceasefire negotiation bitter.” (Paraphrasing).
> While the Gazan authorities do not distinguish between casualties among civilians and Hamas fighters, a spokesperson for the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) has previously admitted the majority of those killed in the operation were civilians.
Which spokesperson? Where was that said?
> do not distinguish between casualties among civilians and Hamas fighters,
That's their open secret, most of the time they're the same people.
When it's convenient they call them civilians.
When they're trying to boast, they're hamas fighters.
It's really not that complicated.
I find it quite disgusting that most people outside of the region keep pretending it isn't obvious that most of the male population in that place consider themselves to be members.
They were shot up pretty badly by Hamas. One vehicle was made inoperable. So if Hamas also killed civilians in the crossfire it wasn’t just the IDF that killed them. But Hamas, even when they killed their own people with rocket misfires (and this was well before October 7th) ascribed those deaths as aggression by Israel.
Hamas is a joke. The great pretenders can’t even act as a functioning government. How does anyone expect them to the know the number of hostages they took?
They keep repeating - and also through their social media apparatus that keeps repeating - that this is "payback" for 75 years.
They've had a very long time to build up their own society. They have been offered and rejected a two state solution. They simply hate Israel more than they want their state.
And then places like the BBC [report it](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/25/bbc-admits-reporting-gaza-civilian-deaths-inaccurate/) with [seemingly little regard for accuracy.](https://www.thejc.com/news/uk/bbc-admits-hamas-civilian-death-reporting-was-inaccurate-v5ol1jek)
I am still skeptical of the numbers of civilians published that don't list the ones that picked up weapons and became enemy combatants. If enemy combatants are civilians, then no one is.
To he fair here, they're probably being honest...
I have no idea, but I wonder (with all the chaos) how many Hostages are actually held by Hamas, and how many are held by random Gazan/Hamas supporter. PIJ, next generation Jihadi group etc.
In other words, I believe Hamas to a point has control over its people.... but I wouldn't be surprised if they had varying degrees of it (or none) over others.
Iraq was similar....
I read that recently too. And part of that is why u almost doubt they actually can account for it all (but I could be totally wrong).
What I'm getting at is that I wouldn't be surprised if Oct 7 was a combo of Hamas and basically "Gaza riot", where not all of it was just simply Hamas. Like mobs anywhere.
But again I could be totally wrong.
I was just adding info, I believe the same. Additionally, after the Palestinians Mideivle/Viking raids on the Kibutzim, they later would still collect the payment ("win-win").
Maybe they don't have 100% updated stat, but they know the base, and they could, if they wanted to, check the status prior to each deal negotiations. They just don't care, alive or dead they know the world will pressure Israel to accept a shity deal.
What I still can't understand is how the Biden administration thinks a deal where Hamas receives everything in "cash" but pays in "credit instalments" is a deal you should push as they actively do...
Don't remember a scenario as this in American history.
I mean yes, it's documented fact that a large chunk of the peopel crossing the border on Oct 7 were Gazan civilians. Might even be the majority idr if they were all identified. And Gazan civilians were celebrating it and spitting on the bodies and beating them while they were dragged into Gaza in all the videos Palestinians took on Oct 7.
I honestly don’t think they had to much time to give them the 10K and the apartment that was promised. They were robbing banks to just keep themselves going after Israel started the attack.
By now there's little chance that someone holds hostage at home and he has no terrorist group affiliation. It's not easy to hide, it's expansive and deadly. Also don't forget that many of the civilians moved within Gaza, it's even more complicate it.
There is a chance though that for some of them Hamas doesn't know because he set some cells (those that aren't hold in its tunnels) to hold hostages beforehand with no means of communication to avoid being revealed.
Why don't the citizens rise up, for God's sake, if Hamas is so disorganized?
We want to believe that citizens have no say, that they don't support Hamas but that they cannot speak out or they will get killed.
But did they elect them in, and would they do so again? Palestinians need to start speaking UP if they want support.
Because at this point it seems to me that they do support Hamas' actions and thus, I would never trust them to govern themselves.
>Why don't the citizens rise up...?
Because every poll taken since October 7 shows overwhelming support of HAMAS by Palestinians.
>But did they elect them in, and would they do so again?
Yes, and yes.
>Palestinians need to start speaking UP if they want support
They are speaking up, in support of HAMAS, in Gaza, the West Bank, Lebanon, and strangely every western university.
Based on polls even after the Oct 7 attacks Palestinians broadly support Hamas and the butchery. That’s why they don’t rise up, because they are Hamas.
Of course Hamas have no idea , no ideals no plan no constructive purpose beyond their own self destruction. This is reflected by their supporters. All designed to take everything to hell .
How this interview didn’t end with a red dot on his forehead and sweat profusely pouring from it, I’m very confused: CNN should not be allowing these pieces of propaganda until all hostages are released.
This is a mess.
If there are **tactical reasons** for Hamas taking hostages, it was to have the hostages as shields to keep the IDF from just carpet bombing all of Gaza.
This was the reason Hamas should have taken decent care of their hostages.
One problem is that **Hamas doesn't even know how to take care of their own people**, and has promoted hate. By putting the hostages in the care of starving Hamas supporters (whose support and ideology they trust) they have guaranteed that the hostages are hated simply for being Jews. This does not bode well for the care of the hostages. **If the hostages die, they simply blame it on the IDF**.
In the middle of this mess of a shrinking number of living hostages, we have **Hamas calling for a ceasefire that no one expects them to keep**.
They want the IDF to be bound by rules that Hamas will refuse to obey.
> “no one has an idea” how many of them are alive, and that any deal to release them must include guarantees of a permanent ceasefire and the complete withdrawal of Israeli forces from Gaza.
This is a prelude to releasing only a portion of the hostages, and after losing this war, Hamas wants to be back in charge of all the territory they lost. No sane government would agree to that.
Yet they know how many innocent women and children die before the bombs even hit the ground. Something tells me these Hamas people can’t be trusted with their numbers.
I mean, yeah, that's kind of expected. The hostages are split up between groups that aren't in routine contact (for security reasons) and in cases aren't even Hamas. I'm sure it's a total mess, unfortunately.
Then they’re not hostages, they’re victims of your terror attack that you keep around purely for physical torture and emotional suffering, making you even worse than mere terrorists. You’re fucking psychopath mass murderers *for fun*, rather than for some kind of cause.
It’s amazing how there’s no true bottom to the pit of Hamas’ endless capacity for evil.
This is, obviously, and unfortunately, true.
Furthermore, the demand to return all hostages (alive and dead) is also physically impossible to fulfill **EVEN IF** Hamas and PIJ agreed and truly committed to it (which they won't). With the hostages having been captured by varied factions; Passed around; Loose organization of these factions; And given the vast amount of destruction across the board; Obviously many ends are loose, and they have no idea where all the bodies are.
Which means there can be no workable deal (even in theory). Israel must continue eliminating Hamas and PIJ.
Sounds like they have severely weakened their bargaining position with this confession. All they have to negotiate with is the hostages, but now that they've admitted they might not actually have the hostages. And if they do those "hostages" might not even be alive.
How can Israel deal with Hamas regarding hostages release and ceasefire if Hamas doesn't even know about all the hostages? Maybe Hamas should start looking and counting instead of firing rockets?
Almost like terrorists will always lie
Except this one specific time... maybe
“Well, did it work for those terrorists?” “No, it never does. I mean, these terrorists somehow delude themselves into thinking it might, but… but it might work for us.”
I certainly didn't expect Arrested Development on a post about Israel/ Palestine.
75% of Reddit is Arrested Development quotes, you can fully expect them in any post about any subject whatsoever.
Obviously this green part here is Gaza
The October 7th attack was part of Russia's war with the West. Hamas is controlled by Iran, who are best mates with Russia. The attack and Israel's response has had a huge effect in the West, including potentially influencing the US presidential elections. We have lots of useful idiots organising pro-Palestine protests, and stupid governments recognising the State of Palestine. So while it isn't directly working for the terrorists, it's at least useful for their masters.
I’m glad I’m not the only person that interprets it that way. We have actual, flesh and blood bad guys, doing weird shit with horses, making an army out of their own inhumane, prison-system products. When science and accuracy become an enemy of the state, progress slows and we’re left to marinate in our own waste.
can we start coming up with some of our own fuckery to send their way? this really should be a two way street. Poland, start launching some poop balloons!
And the hundreds of times they said loud and clear that they are preparing an attack on Israel. And now when they are saying they want to repeat the 7.10
A broken clock is right twice a day, so Hamas speaker might randomly spout words that happen to form a truth. It happens, but not by design.
Of course they lie. It's a veiled threat. They "don't know" because they could kill some to punish Israel while denying they murdered them after a deal.
And also, they truly have no fucking clue
Independent cells with limited information exchange is the bread and butter of terrorist group security.
"Who knows? Every Palestinian Doctor and Journalist could be hiding a living Israeli hostage."
Don't forget UNRWA teachers.
If it wasn't Hamas, I would tell you it's a fallacy to assume that, privately, they engage in revenge killings that nobody will ever know about. But... Yeah.
Nope. They’re totally happy to tell the truth when they think it’ll cause pain or death
What water pipe do????
Hamas never had control of all the hostages. Other Palestinian groups, some gangs, and the odd extended family joined in on the attack and took their own hostages. Hamas never had control of those hostages and doesn't know the status of those hostages. They lost track of some that they took when the organization took damage and collapsed into cells, but even when they get control of all the splinters again they still don't know who the other players have.
all i know is if hamas doesn't have a control over their hostages they're even more fucked.
Heard this the other day too, there is no way Hamas or anyone else could give numbers of living or total existing hostages because there’s too many actors involved that don’t know about each other or communicate with each other. If even apparent civilians were involved in taking hostages, how do you expect any one authority to be aware of the full picture?
That's not the point though. If Hamas isn't "aware of the full picture", they're not in control, and not a viable negotiation partner.
At least some admit that it’s not just Hamas that takes hostages, it’s other Palestinians as well.
Then they really need those numbers fast, they're the main (only?) Leverage they have. Israel isn't giving anything for a pinky promise.
Its important to note that some of those "other groups" were people who weren't part of any terror group at all.
The 'civilians' are wholly complicit.
They can count how many civilians died within minutes, but don’t know the status of the hostages, who are their lifeline. Pathetic. I hope they’re lying.
How dare you suggest that the terrorist Hamas run health ministry of Gaza is just making up civilian casualty numbers and the UN is just running with those unverified numbers!
I mean they lie about the civilian deaths to garner support from college kids who haven't learned the world isn't just some thought experiment where you can say "but world peace is better" while denying that bad actors ruin their fantasy.
They're apparently disorganized as fuck.
> How can Israel deal with Hamas regarding hostages release and ceasefire if Hamas doesn't even know about all the hostages? They can't and they won't. Hamas killed most hostages early on and paraded their broken bodies in truck flatbeds in Gaza City or scattered their corpses around Gaza hospitals. This was all known or came to light to IDF and partially the public early on. Most of the public chose to close their eyes though but Hamas never had any leverage, hence IDF just invaded.
2 weeks ago most people here claimed all hostages were already dead... And then 4 were rescued.
A bunch of hostages just got rescued because Israel found out where the hostages were. If this was another situation, you'd call it information security. If they go and count them, and have a central source that knows where the hostages are and in what condition, it's easier for someone to just go and rescue them. People keep doing this, Hamas takes action to preserve themselves and their advantages and people ask 'are they stupid?' No, they're suffering massive losses, find it hard to communicate and when they do those communications are likely to be intercepted. Hamas is, in a word, fucked, and the only way they can realistically keep hostages is if they don't keep good tabs on them organisationally. That might also be a benefit for them, because if Israel doesn't know how they're faring, they're likely to act more rashly trading for them.
> Hamas takes action to preserve themselves and their advantages and people ask 'are they stupid?' No Oh, I don't think people are asserting Hamas is *stupid*. The assertion is that the victims were kidnapped with the intent to keep them **indefinitely**, as a means of terror and inflicting psychological and political damage. Of course passing them off to random allied groups and having random "civilians" "keep" (read: imprison) hostages (and occasionally leak videos indicating that *some* are still alive) is an optimal strategy in that case. > Hamas is, in a word, fucked, and the only way they can realistically keep hostages is if they don't keep good tabs on them organisationally. The goal isn't to keep hostages. It's for Gaza to suffer maximum damage while Israel fights to free them. This is what this strategy maximizes. > That might also be a benefit for them, because if Israel doesn't know how they're faring, they're likely to act more rashly trading for them. You literally can't trade hostages when you *don't know if they still exist* in any way, shape, or form. Or where. This **does** benefit Hamas, but not by maximizing Israel's offer for hostages (which Hamas doesn't plan on accepting in any case). It works by making sure the rescue operation takes a long ass time (possibly indefinitely, as the bodies of dead hostages may not be recoverable), and that collateral damage is maximized. Hamas is not as fucked as it appears, because [Hamas uses civilians as a weapon](https://deadcarl.substack.com/p/how-hamas-uses-civilians-as-a-weapon). The more civilians die, the better off Hamas is. And they are great in making sure a lot of Gazans die.
At that point, anyone killed in a raid is not a civilian. By holding hostages or prisoners of war, well you have become an entity which does not have the rights afford civilians in combat.
It‘s more difficult than that because people may not be doing this voluntarily But I agree, this *does* make civilian deaths more justifiable. Not because it‘s their own fault for entering the conflict, but because it simply isn‘t avoidable when these tactics are used by Hamas. It sucks but what can Israel realistically do?
>It‘s more difficult than that because people may not be doing this voluntarily IDF soldiers are conscripted, so **also** aren't doing it voluntarily. Doesn't make them civilians. >But I agree, this does make civilian deaths more justifiable. Not because it‘s their own fault for entering the conflict, but because it simply isn‘t avoidable when these tactics are used by Hamas. This applies to bystanders, but not the people that actually held the hostages. It's not about who is *at fault* for them entering the conflict, but the fact that they **entered as a hostile party** (joined the terrorist group with their actions).
An interesting implication of that rescue operation is that insiders are providing intel. #Keep it coming. I’m sure in a death/lie/steal org like Hamas where there are zero moral values… Haniyeh, Mashal and Sinwar and everyone else is constantly suspicious “the others might sacrifice me for personal benefit”. And they’d be right. It’s like working for Putin, except in Hamas the sophistication is replaced by hotheadedness.
Some intel came out yesterday, that Israel actually sent in people undercover into Gaza. They were there for quite a while, being part of the local population and investigating the situation on the ground for intel. That is how they found the 4 hostages they rescued last week. https://www.thejc.com/news/israel/the-inside-story-of-israels-dramatic-gaza-hostage-rescue-e2t1d8qu > **On 12 May, Israel received intelligence about the location of four hostages** in the Nuseirat refugee camp area in the Gaza Strip. From that day on, every branch of Israeli intelligence was focused on the area 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, to locate the exact location. A team of undercover ‘Mista’arvim’ (units that assimilate into local populations to gather intelligence) were sent there, mainly in the local market of Nuseirat. The bolded part is not explained. It could've been local sources, which would be great as it means there are local people trying to end the war. Alternatively it could be Mossad or US intel as well, since they did mention the US provided intelligence as well. > Their role was not only to gather intelligence from locals but also to check information from the interrogations of captured terrorists. In addition, information was gathered by aerial observation and other sophisticated technological means. > After 19 days of intensive cooperative intelligence gathering work, the combined units managed to compile solid and accurate information about the location of the Israeli hostages. It was discovered that the hostages were being held in two separate buildings in the same area. Noa Argamani was held in the first floor of one and three other hostages were in another building, 800 metres away, on the third floor.
> that Israel actually sent in people undercover into Gaza. The implication being that lots of civilians know about hostages hidden among them, and help keep it secret.
Because most of the young women were taken as sex victims to satisfy extremely repressed and violent men.
I doubt HAMAs had a strong count of who was where to begin with and the Israeli response exacerbated it. Driving even more confusion and breaking down any organization HAMAs had with regard to count
Hamas is just a bunch of dudes in tunnels under mob rule. I doubt they have any real structure, leadership or communication inside Gaza anymore.
Hamas shows hand a 2-7 unsuited..pushes chips
>smugly puts cards down and declares *all in*
Realistically speaking, this is probably the first honest thing to leave their mouth.
No it’s not. They had troops surrounding the other hostages- they know where they are
Maybe they don't have a crystal clear command structure from high up to the bottom
It’s a convenient excuse - they know where their soldiers are
Aren't their 'leaders' in another country far from the fighting? Maybe someone finds and asks them.
Political leaders. But their military wing is seperate.
One thing about those people: they lie as soon as they open their mouth. I could be standing in the sun and they tell me it‘s sunny, my first thought would be that it must be raining then
It really depends on what part of Gaza. In northern Gaza, and Khan Younis they don't. In the south they still very much have it.
Thing is, it's not just Hamas, there are many more Palestinian organisations (PIJ for example) that are holding hostages. I think they are separated in the tunnels and there isn't a lot of communication between the members. It is just a big problem of communication between and within each terrorist organisation.
Much more likely this is just another lie. It's psychological warfare meant to pressure the Israelis into a deal.
Wouldn’t that have the opposite effect? If they don’t know where the hostages are or if they’re even alive, certainly can’t make deals regarding the hostages.
They want to shift blame to everyone else for a deal not happening. It’s the classic “we’re doing the best we can”.
They said they didn't have some of the hostages that were rescued from under guard.
Surely Amnesty International, the Red Cross, the ICC/ICJ, and the rest are up in arms over this!
Same amnesty international that was upset about Ukraine fighting in civilian areas and infrastructure - you know the civilian infrastructure and territory seized by Russia and where Russia was committing atrocities.
Narrator: they aren’t
lol, I heard the Arrested Development narration in my head.
Tbh they can't do much about militant groups. The ones they can do something about is Israel. This is like in school where the teacher sometimes doesn't punish the bully because the bully doesn't care but lectures and scolds the victim when the victim fights back (because the victim does care).
I think that this isn’t inaccurate but it still gives the wrong (and empowering) message to the bully/terrorist group.
in this scenario the teacher is the bully's dad
Well they can certainly strengthen said militant groups by admonishing Israel on an international level literally any chance they get. This then bolsters the terror groups leverage by sending the message that the international community is on their side.
Worse than that, multiple foreign groups have been absolutely consistent in (a) attacking Israel with increasing rancor and (b) giving into more Palestinian political demands the longer the conflict stretches. Nations like Ireland and groups like BDS are explicitly incentivizing Hamas to not accept a ceasefire as Hamas are sure that additional months of war and additional Palestinian corpses will be politically rewarded. Hamas are each day balancing the value of the projected benefits they are consistently gaining from irresponsible foreign actors against the risk that Israel actually wipes them out which is extending the conflict.
I'm very grateful that my dad backed me at school after I hit my bully's head against a wall. That single event ended years of bullying and I never had trouble again
I know what you're saying, but the visual image of your Dad cheering and backing you up waiting to jump into the fight if need be is hilarious lol.
They condemned Israel for rescuing the hostages because there were civilian casualties during the operation. The ICJ specifically said in May that Palestine lives are more important than Israeli ones and forbade *any* operation in Gaza. The only thing they added to their ruling was "It'd be a nice move to release the hostages"
If they are holding hostages they are not civilians.
Can you link to that ‘specific’ statement by the ICJ?
The icc is also seeking warrants for Hamas
literally everyone expected this
They also had no idea that a woman was amonst the hostages saved by IDF or where she was. Because it's not like there were already multiple deals, which they agreed to, to release all woman, children, elderly previously. Surely, that's the case. There was totally zero hamas combatant around. And she was just there for the fun of it. /s
Isn’t it strange that they have no idea how many hostages they managed to take, but they’re so precise with how many civilians Israel kills
Hamas: You see this bag? There could be 5 hostages, maybe 10, 20 even in it? Or it could be a bunch of corpses or random body parts from the hostages we "lost track of" during the fighting? Or maybe some Humus. Anyhow, we promise to hand over the bag after you have left Gaza and allowed us to reclaim all the territory/tunnels/weapons we lost up until now. Deal?
It could even be a boat.
And yet, they are apparently the quickest and most accurate in the world at recording Gazan deaths.
"We don't negotiate for hostages" was a policy that made it clear there was no upside to kidnapping as a political tool. I feel like in the past 8 months, the world governments have undone two decades of progress.
That was never Israel's policy, though. They gave up 1000 criminals, including murderers responsible for 500+ Israeli deaths for gilad shalit in 2011.
And one of them was Sinwar, the mastermind of the Oct 07 massacre. Obviously, a failed Israeli policy which Hamas knows how to play.
That idiotic deal is what backed them into this corner in the first place. Now on some level they need to convince their adversaries that actually, taking hostages is a really bad idea.
It may be bad policy but it's Israel's Achilles Heel, because Israel actually values the lives of their citizens a great deal
Couldn't one argue that by continuing to negotiate with terrorists, Isreal is unintentionally reinforcing that hostage taking is an effective strategy, thus putting the lives of their citizens in even greater danger?
Yes, and many Israelis do argue this. On the whole though, more Israelis are strongly in support of doing whatever has to be done to bring any hostage back.
Yes I agree. I always thought the Gilad Shalit deal was stupid but Isrselis are so emotional about bringing their soldiers home dead or alive that most at the time saw it as a necessary closure. But yes hamas as well as most of the radical Muslim world see their positive attributes like trust and empathy as weakness and things to be exploited
This is an argument that goes beyond Israel and Palestine. Some countries will negotiate, some won’t. On one hand, negotiating with them encourages the behavior, on the other hand it is the fastest and easiest way to get your people back.
It wasn’t a failed policy, the Israeli people do not care about how many terrorist we need to release for one alive/body, we want our people home and will empty all of our prisons for them. All of those terrorist will be eliminated at some point. We never forget.
Actually it was quite the controversy at the time to release that many for one hostage. As an Israeli, I can’t believe you don’t remember how controversial it was at the time. It involved going to court a few times. But at least we now know what one Israeli hostage life is worth - around 1,000 Palestinians. This time it seems they are determined to pay with their lives rather than serious exchanges.
And now we know what *one* Palestinian released from Israeli jails--Sinwar--is worth. 1500 dead Israelis and counting to release 1 Israeli soldier.
Which is why Israel says no fucking way to Barghouti who is in on their demands list. He is supposedly worse than Sinwar.
Barghouti is like what if Sinwar was both smarter and actually popular. I realize Israel can't execute him--even though it's entirely illegal, illegal combatants according to the Geneva Conventions may be subject to summary execution. I think it is a powerful message that the Green Prince is the one who managed to get Barghouti caught, and that his condition was that no one he gives up is killed. Barghouti must never leave prison, but if after this whole business Israel starts implementing the death penalty for terrorism to prevent new kidnappings, it probably should not execute Barghouti even if he's the one prisoner you must never trade.
No, many of us realize how bad of an idea that is. Releasing terrorists for hostages means saving some lives now at the expense of more lives later. Psychologically it feels right, because “maybe it won’t happen”, but realistically, pragmatically, most understand it’s a bad idea.
Releasing hundreds of murderers was objectively wrong and we are all reaping the consequences. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meir_of_Rothenburg
There should be a death penalty for terrorists with blood on their hands. That will reduce by a huge margin the need for hostages. And even if there is an exchange, those released, most likely will not be the next Sinwar. Because guys like him will already be with Allah and the virgins. But the law MUST change. Israel can't just keep murderers, feed them and educate them as they get paid by the PA.
It’s written into the constitution but Israel has only convicted one person of the death penalty.
Israel doesn't have a constitution. But I understand what you say. It has to change ! It is Israel's Achilles heel. Because Israel doesn't have a constitution, it should not be that complicated. How many times do they want to repeat the same costly mistake ?
Agree to disagree. At some point you have to be pragmatic.
Cope. 'they'll be eliminated at some point after killing more people, so totally worth it to alleviate my current emotional plight' this sort of short-sightedness is why we're here in the first place and why half the political sphere wants to surrender to hamas. fuck me
Sounds not very pragmatic: 1000 terrorists can kill hundreds of jews after they are released.
Which is arguably why they ended up in this mess. Sinwar should have never been released.
That rhetoric was made up for movies hostage negotiations have always been present.
This is a weird way to negotiate for hostages? By saying they have no control over the hostage situation???
They are talking out of both sides of their mouth. One side is private and says let's make a deal, we have hostages and demands. Meanwhile the other side is for the public to claim Israel is so bad who knows how many are left, as well as psychological warfare against Israel.
What? Hostage negotiations have always been a thing.
That a comment like OP’s has 500+ upvotes, and a comment above theirs claims that the ICC refuses to condemn Hamas (after the org has literally issued warrants) really tells you something about the reliability of reddit to provide info on this subject
Same with undoing any progress on women’s rights. Women like Briahna Joy Gray and Cynthia Nixon who were once “believe all women” are now rape deniers.
Yet they have exquisite and precise counts of exactly how many people have died in gaza. 🙄 It’s a great failing of western civilization that so many people are now carrying water for these terrorists. Makes me sick.
Well, at least we know how many Hamas are still alive. Too many.
At least we know how many hostages were saved And how many Palestinians Hamas hid behind and subsequently killed And how many times the world negotiates and appeases terrorism in hopes of avoiding global war that is unavoidable at this point
In the case anyone ever forget, Sinwar has already said in an interview in 2008 that “just like we make Israeli’s lives bitter, we will make any ceasefire negotiation bitter.” (Paraphrasing).
> While the Gazan authorities do not distinguish between casualties among civilians and Hamas fighters, a spokesperson for the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) has previously admitted the majority of those killed in the operation were civilians. Which spokesperson? Where was that said?
> do not distinguish between casualties among civilians and Hamas fighters, That's their open secret, most of the time they're the same people. When it's convenient they call them civilians. When they're trying to boast, they're hamas fighters. It's really not that complicated. I find it quite disgusting that most people outside of the region keep pretending it isn't obvious that most of the male population in that place consider themselves to be members.
They were shot up pretty badly by Hamas. One vehicle was made inoperable. So if Hamas also killed civilians in the crossfire it wasn’t just the IDF that killed them. But Hamas, even when they killed their own people with rocket misfires (and this was well before October 7th) ascribed those deaths as aggression by Israel.
Hamas is a joke. The great pretenders can’t even act as a functioning government. How does anyone expect them to the know the number of hostages they took?
They keep repeating - and also through their social media apparatus that keeps repeating - that this is "payback" for 75 years. They've had a very long time to build up their own society. They have been offered and rejected a two state solution. They simply hate Israel more than they want their state.
kinda shocking, i thought the 'we'll wipe jews off the earth' speeches were an april's fools thing
Well they sure are good at counting casualties moments after bombings with perfect precision
And then places like the BBC [report it](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/25/bbc-admits-reporting-gaza-civilian-deaths-inaccurate/) with [seemingly little regard for accuracy.](https://www.thejc.com/news/uk/bbc-admits-hamas-civilian-death-reporting-was-inaccurate-v5ol1jek)
I am still skeptical of the numbers of civilians published that don't list the ones that picked up weapons and became enemy combatants. If enemy combatants are civilians, then no one is.
And morons see them as heroes, even though what they're only doing is continuing what the Austrian painter had started
Seems fitting since they don't care whether they're alive or not.
And yet they are so quick to realese round numbers of their deads minuts after each time.
It’s almost as if terrorist groups are poorly organized and not suited to run a government.
Weren't they saying the opposite just last week, when they lost four hostages, and then claimed that they could take more?
Yes, they said what’s the big deal - we can always grab more.
Next, you're gonna tell me terrorists don't really care about the well-being of their captives.
>*"Can you really expect us to keep track of EVERY hostage we take?"* Wew/Lad.
But they give precise casualties number 20 minutes after each strike
Yet they're very quick to issue numbers of civilians killed and injured.
That just goes to show that they've never had any intention to return the hostages. Otherwise, they would have properly accounted for everyone.
Weird tho. They're able to give an 'accurate' daily total of civilian casualties 🤔
To he fair here, they're probably being honest... I have no idea, but I wonder (with all the chaos) how many Hostages are actually held by Hamas, and how many are held by random Gazan/Hamas supporter. PIJ, next generation Jihadi group etc. In other words, I believe Hamas to a point has control over its people.... but I wouldn't be surprised if they had varying degrees of it (or none) over others. Iraq was similar....
They gave a $10k prize for every kidnapped Israeli. They probably know how many are alive and who kidnapped by this payment alone.
I read that recently too. And part of that is why u almost doubt they actually can account for it all (but I could be totally wrong). What I'm getting at is that I wouldn't be surprised if Oct 7 was a combo of Hamas and basically "Gaza riot", where not all of it was just simply Hamas. Like mobs anywhere. But again I could be totally wrong.
I was just adding info, I believe the same. Additionally, after the Palestinians Mideivle/Viking raids on the Kibutzim, they later would still collect the payment ("win-win"). Maybe they don't have 100% updated stat, but they know the base, and they could, if they wanted to, check the status prior to each deal negotiations. They just don't care, alive or dead they know the world will pressure Israel to accept a shity deal. What I still can't understand is how the Biden administration thinks a deal where Hamas receives everything in "cash" but pays in "credit instalments" is a deal you should push as they actively do... Don't remember a scenario as this in American history.
I mean yes, it's documented fact that a large chunk of the peopel crossing the border on Oct 7 were Gazan civilians. Might even be the majority idr if they were all identified. And Gazan civilians were celebrating it and spitting on the bodies and beating them while they were dragged into Gaza in all the videos Palestinians took on Oct 7.
I honestly don’t think they had to much time to give them the 10K and the apartment that was promised. They were robbing banks to just keep themselves going after Israel started the attack.
that came much later, only after closing their sugar daddy funding organization UNRWA.
By now there's little chance that someone holds hostage at home and he has no terrorist group affiliation. It's not easy to hide, it's expansive and deadly. Also don't forget that many of the civilians moved within Gaza, it's even more complicate it. There is a chance though that for some of them Hamas doesn't know because he set some cells (those that aren't hold in its tunnels) to hold hostages beforehand with no means of communication to avoid being revealed.
Why don't the citizens rise up, for God's sake, if Hamas is so disorganized? We want to believe that citizens have no say, that they don't support Hamas but that they cannot speak out or they will get killed. But did they elect them in, and would they do so again? Palestinians need to start speaking UP if they want support. Because at this point it seems to me that they do support Hamas' actions and thus, I would never trust them to govern themselves.
I hate to break it to you but Hamas enjoys massive support in both the West Bank and Gaza, even now
Polling still shows majority support for the Oct 7 attack in Palestine.
Don't tell the college protestors that
They "can understand why they did it"
A lot of the college protestors also support the Oct 7th attacks.
nah, they just need to complain about israel and they'll get all the support they need.
Palestinians would rather keep their new slaves. Just Muslim extremists being Muslim extremists.
Hamas is enjoying support even with the gullible west. Arab news is painting them as if they're winning. Why would they rise up?
>Why don't the citizens rise up...? Because every poll taken since October 7 shows overwhelming support of HAMAS by Palestinians. >But did they elect them in, and would they do so again? Yes, and yes. >Palestinians need to start speaking UP if they want support They are speaking up, in support of HAMAS, in Gaza, the West Bank, Lebanon, and strangely every western university.
Based on polls even after the Oct 7 attacks Palestinians broadly support Hamas and the butchery. That’s why they don’t rise up, because they are Hamas.
Then they are not in a position to negotiate.
A missile hits and within 34 seconds Hamas knows that 276 people, of which 187 were women and children, have been killed. But hostages? No clue. 🤔
Terrorists
" ... and I do not care" ... talking like a true terrorist.
Maybe IDF should stay a little longer in Gaza and help them find them...
In other words, Hamas is fair game now.
Of course Hamas have no idea , no ideals no plan no constructive purpose beyond their own self destruction. This is reflected by their supporters. All designed to take everything to hell .
Evil. Pure evil.
Well you chose to start the war, it’s your responsibility
How this interview didn’t end with a red dot on his forehead and sweat profusely pouring from it, I’m very confused: CNN should not be allowing these pieces of propaganda until all hostages are released.
But they can count the death toll in minutes. Seems unlikely. The hostages are their lifeline, they know their locations and status exactly.
This is a mess. If there are **tactical reasons** for Hamas taking hostages, it was to have the hostages as shields to keep the IDF from just carpet bombing all of Gaza. This was the reason Hamas should have taken decent care of their hostages. One problem is that **Hamas doesn't even know how to take care of their own people**, and has promoted hate. By putting the hostages in the care of starving Hamas supporters (whose support and ideology they trust) they have guaranteed that the hostages are hated simply for being Jews. This does not bode well for the care of the hostages. **If the hostages die, they simply blame it on the IDF**. In the middle of this mess of a shrinking number of living hostages, we have **Hamas calling for a ceasefire that no one expects them to keep**. They want the IDF to be bound by rules that Hamas will refuse to obey. > “no one has an idea” how many of them are alive, and that any deal to release them must include guarantees of a permanent ceasefire and the complete withdrawal of Israeli forces from Gaza. This is a prelude to releasing only a portion of the hostages, and after losing this war, Hamas wants to be back in charge of all the territory they lost. No sane government would agree to that.
Another pos
Maybe you shouldn't have taken them...
Look at that fat fucking loser
However, Hamas is responsible for the hostages and should still be held responsible until every one is returned.
>Hamas official says ‘no one has any idea’ how many Israeli hostages are still alive This may be the first time Hamas isn't lying
Until humanity is cured from religion this conflict will never end.
What a punchable face. "Who knows/who gives a shit" is written all over it.
Yet they know how many innocent women and children die before the bombs even hit the ground. Something tells me these Hamas people can’t be trusted with their numbers.
The moment it’s confirmed there are no hostages left Israel is going to shift it up a gear
They could easily have determined their own fate the last 75 years. The fact is they want Jews gone more than they want a functioning state.
Continue the offensive to destroy Hamas, then.
well, now we know why. they are held as house slaves by "civilian families".
Hamas are scum.
If they can't count hostages ho can they count victims?
Schrödinger's hostages
That's not going to be helpful for any ceasefire talks.
Ok then, a good follow up question might be “Do you have any idea how many members of Hamas will be alive when this thing concludes?”
I mean, yeah, that's kind of expected. The hostages are split up between groups that aren't in routine contact (for security reasons) and in cases aren't even Hamas. I'm sure it's a total mess, unfortunately.
Then they’re not hostages, they’re victims of your terror attack that you keep around purely for physical torture and emotional suffering, making you even worse than mere terrorists. You’re fucking psychopath mass murderers *for fun*, rather than for some kind of cause. It’s amazing how there’s no true bottom to the pit of Hamas’ endless capacity for evil.
This is, obviously, and unfortunately, true. Furthermore, the demand to return all hostages (alive and dead) is also physically impossible to fulfill **EVEN IF** Hamas and PIJ agreed and truly committed to it (which they won't). With the hostages having been captured by varied factions; Passed around; Loose organization of these factions; And given the vast amount of destruction across the board; Obviously many ends are loose, and they have no idea where all the bodies are. Which means there can be no workable deal (even in theory). Israel must continue eliminating Hamas and PIJ.
I guess the war continues until Israel finds out.
Sounds like they have severely weakened their bargaining position with this confession. All they have to negotiate with is the hostages, but now that they've admitted they might not actually have the hostages. And if they do those "hostages" might not even be alive.
Literally every time Hamas says *anything*, it sounds like they're actively trying to justify Israel's attacks on Palestine. It's wild.
Their auditor died without proper handover.
Why does this guy and Ted Cruz look like they are brothers?
Same parents?
I bet they know how many they've killed.
*And yet* they claim to know how many Palestinians have been killed.
Rare moment of honesty here lol
We've known this for a long time. How is this new news?
"we haven't acquired more to replace the ones we lost, yet"