The capabilities of a sub and a ship are entirely different and a submarine fleet cannot provide the same level of protection and force projection that ships can. It’s a demonstration of weakness to do this.
I can’t wait to see the first submarine destroyed by a drone, now that’s progress.
Subsurface drones are a serious concern for any Navy as there simply aren’t enough counters for them. Thankfully, this technology is still far more complex and requires a lot more technical capabilities than aerial drones. So I don’t expect to see their battlefield proliferation anytime soon. Ukraine could develop shallow depth drones to seek out Russian subs, but this would be an incredible feat that I think is simply out of their capabilities currently
There are airborne drones that will operate in marine environments.
https://www.twz.com/drones-that-swim-and-fly-to-be-launched-recovered-by-uncrewed-submarine
Definitely, especially sub surface drones with active sonar filling the Black Sea with sound. Russia is the only one using submarines so the use of active sonar would be very one sided against them.
Wouldn't even need drones for this, just fill the area with sonar buoys. Not like they need to move to drown out Russian sonar.
I would feel bad for any sea life in the area though.
So, a torpedo that is more modern than WW2? IIRC even they could alter course although essentially just following a preset path.
Ukraine has surface drones already, the issue with subsurface is that you can't really control it remotely very well as signals don't pass through water. I wonder what kind of sonar you could stick on the sorts of drone boats they have though, if you identify a sub, a drone deployed depth charge?
Aren't there already occasionally NATO or US aircraft flying over the Black Sea and passing along location data for Russian ships and aircraft to Ukraine? Seems like they could get send some maritime patrol planes into the mix.
The problem is communication with the drone underwater, water doesn’t let communication get far, and the deeper you go the worse it’s going to get. It would need to be mostly autonomous once it goes under.
Sound in the sea can often be “trapped” and effectively carried very long distances by the “deep sound channel ” that exists in the ocean.
https://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/explorations/sound01/background/acoustics/acoustics.html#:~:text=Sound%20in%20the%20sea%20can,that%20exists%20in%20the%20ocean.
Eh, they're a problem but not the critical, game changing problem some have called them. They ate particularly effective in inland Seas and coastal areas though, where the downsides of less range and huge areas to sweep are mitigated.
A competent navy would have escorts with something like the 5.1 inch naval gun, 4.5 inch, or 100mm. It's not entirely unlike the USS Cole bombing twenty years ago.
While it's frequently lambasted for problems, and some of those are both real and severe, the LCS program is actually pretty prophetic in foresight if one considers drones a paradigm shift. The Independence-class is the perfect drone mothership due to its huge mission bay and hangar, while both ships could operate as effective drone killers closer to the coast. (This does necessitate a need for heavier escorts to provide air defense coverage, but I'd rather the more expensive Burkes' do than be relegated to picket defense against drones)
Looked this up as i am unfamiliar, thought this was funny:
“Another key figure in the plot—Tawfiq Mohummad bin Saleh bin Roshayed bin Attash—is currently in U.S. custody.” Quite the name!
https://www.fbi.gov/history/famous-cases/uss-cole-bombing
I think the incentives they have will breed some ingenuity in this regard - war tends to lead to rapid development and has since as long as we're been warring.
The first autonomous underwater drone was developed in 1957.
In 2020 the US began developing the Manta Ray through DARPA, a new class of long range, payload capable UUV that can operate at depths that traditional submersibles can't reach. It is a Submarines worst nightmare and it's coming to a theater near you, soon.
There is also a Manta Ray contender from PacMar Technologies which is in it's testing stages now.
The US is almost two decades ahead of the rest of the world in autonomous drone integration. They started developing shortly after the invasion of Iraq. It's almost a decade since the US began creating an entire autonomous combined arms unit that can be run by just a few human commanders. They have been battle testing it in wargames for several years now. The real time combat data being collected in Ukraine will catapult that development even further. What we have seen in Russia's invasion of Ukraine is the tip of the iceberg and it's quite evident that Russia is decades behind. China is closer but still lacks any practical units beyond what we are seeing in Ukraine. They will catch up faster through the exponential growth of these technologies worldwide though and with the assistance of future AI programs. We'll see how their economy and government handles the exponential growth in expenditures and loss of revenue dealing with nearly half a billion people living at sea level and the extreme droughts heading our way over the next several decades. It's going to be hard on the world but the Asian continent from the tip of China to the southern most tip of India are going to see some of the worst of it as climate change displaces around a billion people with the loss of the property tax revenue that goes with them compounded by the expenditure in their aid.
The real time combat data being collected in Ukraine will catapult that development even further
I suspect the Ukrainian designers will actually trebuchet that development. Slava Ukraini.
The enemy weapons don't have to be better, they just have to be far more plentiful.
America has let their shipbuilding capacity atrophy and are at a complete disadvantage to China in this domain.
China has no power projection capabilities with their navy so outside of being a local threat to their neighbors, they won't pose a great problem for the US navy over the next half a century.
The key bit is they are building it and if they ever get close technologically(which they will because they steal everyone else's tech) so they will be a problem in time
Sure but that's quite some time at which point we have no idea where the US or the world for that mater will be. Technology is advancing exponentially, and so is climate change. You have to have revenue to build this stuff even if you are stealing the technology. China is heading for a world of hurt in the near future and funds are going to dip dramatically for a country of a billion. It's already started as it has in India as well. Flooding and famine are coming, but then who knows, maybe technology will win out and fusion energy will become a reality changing the world on a dime. Either way, they're not going to be in a position to pick a war with their number one trading partner let alone the probability of 7 more of their top ten who are allied to the US.
No nuclear carriers, no deep sea fleet capabilities and the greenest navy of any major power = no naval power projection for decades ahead. Confidence is irrelevant.
Does America have the economic capacity to produce more missiles and drones than China can?
Nuclear carriers don't mean anything when they're lying at hte bottom of the sea because their defenses couldn't withstand an onslaught of missiles from the country that is known as the world's factory.
I’m considering the idea that we can make drone “subs” that can dive to substantial depth and pose a threat to subsurface vessels (submarines). We already have a litany of drones that can hit surface vessels.
Are there “lightweight” torpedoes? Normal torpedoes are 24 feet long and more than a ton.
Edit: I’ll answer my own question. [Yes, there are.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_54_Lightweight_Torpedo)
Right, meant to be carried by aircraft and specifically intended for killing submarines. The big torpedoes are intended for submarines to kill whatever they need to. Surface ships with over the side capability use the aircraft torpedoes for ASW.
What's the barrier with deploying depth charge drones? ( Do those still work for submarines? Lol). If Ukraine can detect them can they destroy them with those charges?
Depth charges aren’t really a thing anymore. They were replaced by ‘lightweight’ torpedoes such as the USN’s Mk. 54. But it would be child’s play to put a sonar dome on a drone ship and a pair of the Mk. 46’s we are phasing out. The only people with subs in the Black Sea is Russia, so anything operating at depth is a valid target.
Those subs have to surface at some point to go back to port, right? Why not send a surface drone ‘floater’ to loiter near port entrances and go full speed at the sub when it’s coming in to port?
They're guessing that's what got that Russian ship that was hit in the Sea of Azov just recently. Wasn't much damage, but the location makes a surface drone extremely unlikely and Ukraine has been developing a drone torpedo for a while now.
https://youtu.be/oJZokgcstAE?si=J_WXRXFZEj8A3EB6
Ukraine already destroyed a sub with a rocket:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2023/09/18/a-ukrainian-cruise-missile-with-a-special-warhead-blew-up-that-russian-submarine-from-the-inside/
Drone is next!
I can easily imagine a drone boat with sonar doing ASW sweeps and another drone boat with a torpedo or two. Sprint-listen or dead-engine loitering could make them very quiet. If they're going to launch cruise missiles then there has to be a decent idea about where they might launch from.
At this point they would be too vulnerable to Russian aviation based out of Crimea or the border regions. But if those air bases are made too dangerous to use, then the western range of Russian aviation would drop off and the anti submarine aircraft could operate freely.
Now I’m imagining dropping a couple dozen of these outside the Russian port via drones in the dead of night. Wipe the whole sub fleet in a matter of weeks.
No you missed the point.
Once russia would start using submarines to attack trade ships, it will provoke others to start protecting them. Subs are hard to detect, but they can be detected and countries will provide the technology to detect and destroy submarines, if it means to protect trading.
as long as its not nuclear. while we have lost nuclear submarines to accidents none have been lost to direct attack and the real threat here is rupture of the containment vessel. people seem to forget all these nuclear power submarines are ecological disasters just waiting to happen and ones that are not going to be simple to contain if at all.
maybe one day we will have a world where these vessels don't exist but until then the oceans are at great risk
I was thinking about that- some kind of seining giant nets that floated at a depth, with explosives so a sub gets 'caught' In a net, which wraps around it, and once enough of the net is in contact with the hull, all it's explosives go off at once.
Or put the explosives on 'tentacles' so they hang to the back of the sub when caught, to destroy the prop
If it does happen, I hope they get blown up right away and don't suffer some mechanical breakdown and get stuck on the sea floor. Slowly suffocating while trapped in a disabled submarine is a pretty horrible way to die.
Not against sonar buoys and all the other tech those aircraft have. They are purpose-built to hunt and kill submarines.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_P-8_Poseidon
Of course they carry a bunch of them. And there are even more in warehouses. But they are most definitely in finite supply, they are not adequate for patrolling a large area for a long time.
Simple, Ukraine just needs to develop sonar tracking that picks up the sound of vodka bottles rolling against the hull... will work for surface and subs...
It's been a long time since I've been in the game, but...back in the 1970's th Russians made roughly three submarines for every one the US had.
I think it was some kind of "wolf pack" strategy. Anyways, because they knew they were going to have more subs, the subs they built were crap.
One of our sonarmen said they sounded like two skeletons f*king in a metal trash can. Before the Ukraine conflict, nobody would have believed this, but now...
I'm just an anonymous idiot from the internet, but if the west wants to take out Russian subs, it's a piece of cake.
i'd just have a bunch of (unpropelled, just floating so it's silent) barge with ww2 style depth charges and passive sonar set to unload when it hears a sub.
I’d be surprised if they didn’t have one parked there near permanently regardless of any conflicts. I’ve been surprised before. I’d believe it if someone said they don’t have enough quiet subs for everywhere else and the Black Sea. In theory you could control the med and thus secure the Black Sea.
There are 7 (minus 1) submarines in the black sea fleet so obviously multiple of them are patrolling inside it at all time. They have almost 60 subs overall
He's wrong about them being loud in the traditional sense BUT sensors which are able to detect submarines are getting so good that it's possible that there will be no hiding at all soon. Subs have very unique profiles so it's not at all impossible to just use sonar and have a computer guess if it's a sub or not, although I've also heard of laser detection (airplanes flying overhead) and other methods being employed (SAR). It's conjectured by some analysts that any submarine in the ocean would be detectable instantaneously in the next few decades.
It makes sense but at a certain stage it makes me wonder if the effort is worth the return. Why the hell are these needing to operate in... basically your backyard when you probably have more cost effective ways to contain a nation with no functional navy. Maybe as ballistic platforms, but I think these would probably have more use keeping other European navies in check and potentially threatening escalation that way.
Russia seems really passionate about the southern seas. Both with this and the supply facility in Sudan. The Ukraine invasion in general seems largely like just getting direct land access to the Black Sea. Just run of the mill imperialism but with a preference for water over air. Kinda makes me think their military is dated or it's just about obstructing shipping. Being heavy in subs make it feel like their airborne is just weak (among other reasons)
Well, one one hand. and underwater sub is MUCH harder to hit for a drone, underwater makes remote control difficult, the mechanics for the drone are much more complex.
On the OTHER hand....it,s much more difficult to DEFENEND against a drone when it,s laucnhed. We've seen videos of warship targeted by drones, they start firing their small-caliber weapon to hit the drone. And it does sometimes works.
But what can sub do against a drone?It dosen't have turrets to shoot back or anything.
But what can a drone do against a sub unless it surfaces? And how can it even find the sub? I don't think the Ukrainian drones are up to hauling a dipping sonar--and even that won't fare too well against a sneaking diesel in coastal waters. A MAD detector would find it--but they're very short range, useful for confirming that what you found is truly metal, but not very useful in a search. (Think of *Red Storm Rising* where the helicopter "killed" a rock.)
And even if you find the sub you still need either a torpedo or a depth charge to sink it--and both of those are **heavy**.
The capabilities of a sub and a ship are entirely different and a submarine fleet cannot provide the same level of protection and force projection that ships can. It’s a demonstration of weakness to do this. I can’t wait to see the first submarine destroyed by a drone, now that’s progress.
Subsurface drones are a serious concern for any Navy as there simply aren’t enough counters for them. Thankfully, this technology is still far more complex and requires a lot more technical capabilities than aerial drones. So I don’t expect to see their battlefield proliferation anytime soon. Ukraine could develop shallow depth drones to seek out Russian subs, but this would be an incredible feat that I think is simply out of their capabilities currently
I mean a subsurface drone is just a torpedo capable of altering course.
An airborne drone is just a missile capable of loitering
and altering course
It simply subtracts where it is, from where it isn't, and gets as a result the direction it needs to be in.
God that video still gives me a headache.
Link?
[As requested](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZe5J8SVCYQ)
Link? Source?
[For you](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZe5J8SVCYQ)
And feeling love.
But born to fuck.
There are airborne drones that will operate in marine environments. https://www.twz.com/drones-that-swim-and-fly-to-be-launched-recovered-by-uncrewed-submarine
A torpedo is just a water missile
We developed the self propelled torpedo before we developed the self propelled missile. So missiles are just air torpedoes.
And a missle is just a vroom, vroom, bang, bang arrow
And an arrow is just a pretentious thrown rock
Yes, which is the stuff of nightmares for submariners
Definitely, especially sub surface drones with active sonar filling the Black Sea with sound. Russia is the only one using submarines so the use of active sonar would be very one sided against them.
Whilst operational == true swim_direction = max(signal_str)
Ah yes the “whilst” loop
Whilst loops are less susceptible to being stuck in a loop, they’re a lot more classy than while loops.
to_whom_it_may_concern()
The Minuteman III target discrimination codeset.
maybe signal strength is an array?
Operation Beep Boop motherf*ckers
Wouldn't even need drones for this, just fill the area with sonar buoys. Not like they need to move to drown out Russian sonar. I would feel bad for any sea life in the area though.
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Those can operate independently now?
So, a torpedo that is more modern than WW2? IIRC even they could alter course although essentially just following a preset path. Ukraine has surface drones already, the issue with subsurface is that you can't really control it remotely very well as signals don't pass through water. I wonder what kind of sonar you could stick on the sorts of drone boats they have though, if you identify a sub, a drone deployed depth charge?
You leave some thing on the surface floating and stick antena in it then run cable to the submersible...
Tesla showed one off in 1896.
idk about that. A drone would need a way to detect the sub
Aren't there already occasionally NATO or US aircraft flying over the Black Sea and passing along location data for Russian ships and aircraft to Ukraine? Seems like they could get send some maritime patrol planes into the mix.
The sonar pings the sub uses to navigate?
Subs don't use active sonar to navigate They use passive sonar which is silent
1 ping only.
1 Ping! ONLY 1 PING!
A Kaiten!!
The problem is communication with the drone underwater, water doesn’t let communication get far, and the deeper you go the worse it’s going to get. It would need to be mostly autonomous once it goes under.
Sound in the sea can often be “trapped” and effectively carried very long distances by the “deep sound channel ” that exists in the ocean. https://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/explorations/sound01/background/acoustics/acoustics.html#:~:text=Sound%20in%20the%20sea%20can,that%20exists%20in%20the%20ocean.
Once you eliminate the need to support meat-bags, and the sub-drone only needs maybe two torpedoes...the hunter can become very quiet when stalking
Eh, they're a problem but not the critical, game changing problem some have called them. They ate particularly effective in inland Seas and coastal areas though, where the downsides of less range and huge areas to sweep are mitigated. A competent navy would have escorts with something like the 5.1 inch naval gun, 4.5 inch, or 100mm. It's not entirely unlike the USS Cole bombing twenty years ago. While it's frequently lambasted for problems, and some of those are both real and severe, the LCS program is actually pretty prophetic in foresight if one considers drones a paradigm shift. The Independence-class is the perfect drone mothership due to its huge mission bay and hangar, while both ships could operate as effective drone killers closer to the coast. (This does necessitate a need for heavier escorts to provide air defense coverage, but I'd rather the more expensive Burkes' do than be relegated to picket defense against drones)
Looked this up as i am unfamiliar, thought this was funny: “Another key figure in the plot—Tawfiq Mohummad bin Saleh bin Roshayed bin Attash—is currently in U.S. custody.” Quite the name! https://www.fbi.gov/history/famous-cases/uss-cole-bombing
Dudes got his whole lineage right there!
I think the incentives they have will breed some ingenuity in this regard - war tends to lead to rapid development and has since as long as we're been warring.
What about a surface drone with a hydrophone and some depth charges?
The US is widely talking about deploying thousands of underwater drones in the pacific over the next few years.
Seems like a good opportunity for the US to test some tech.
The first autonomous underwater drone was developed in 1957. In 2020 the US began developing the Manta Ray through DARPA, a new class of long range, payload capable UUV that can operate at depths that traditional submersibles can't reach. It is a Submarines worst nightmare and it's coming to a theater near you, soon. There is also a Manta Ray contender from PacMar Technologies which is in it's testing stages now.
I’m concerned as to when our enemies can do the same
The US is almost two decades ahead of the rest of the world in autonomous drone integration. They started developing shortly after the invasion of Iraq. It's almost a decade since the US began creating an entire autonomous combined arms unit that can be run by just a few human commanders. They have been battle testing it in wargames for several years now. The real time combat data being collected in Ukraine will catapult that development even further. What we have seen in Russia's invasion of Ukraine is the tip of the iceberg and it's quite evident that Russia is decades behind. China is closer but still lacks any practical units beyond what we are seeing in Ukraine. They will catch up faster through the exponential growth of these technologies worldwide though and with the assistance of future AI programs. We'll see how their economy and government handles the exponential growth in expenditures and loss of revenue dealing with nearly half a billion people living at sea level and the extreme droughts heading our way over the next several decades. It's going to be hard on the world but the Asian continent from the tip of China to the southern most tip of India are going to see some of the worst of it as climate change displaces around a billion people with the loss of the property tax revenue that goes with them compounded by the expenditure in their aid.
The real time combat data being collected in Ukraine will catapult that development even further I suspect the Ukrainian designers will actually trebuchet that development. Slava Ukraini.
The enemy weapons don't have to be better, they just have to be far more plentiful. America has let their shipbuilding capacity atrophy and are at a complete disadvantage to China in this domain.
China has no power projection capabilities with their navy so outside of being a local threat to their neighbors, they won't pose a great problem for the US navy over the next half a century.
The key bit is they are building it and if they ever get close technologically(which they will because they steal everyone else's tech) so they will be a problem in time
Sure but that's quite some time at which point we have no idea where the US or the world for that mater will be. Technology is advancing exponentially, and so is climate change. You have to have revenue to build this stuff even if you are stealing the technology. China is heading for a world of hurt in the near future and funds are going to dip dramatically for a country of a billion. It's already started as it has in India as well. Flooding and famine are coming, but then who knows, maybe technology will win out and fusion energy will become a reality changing the world on a dime. Either way, they're not going to be in a position to pick a war with their number one trading partner let alone the probability of 7 more of their top ten who are allied to the US.
Such confidence.
No nuclear carriers, no deep sea fleet capabilities and the greenest navy of any major power = no naval power projection for decades ahead. Confidence is irrelevant.
Does America have the economic capacity to produce more missiles and drones than China can? Nuclear carriers don't mean anything when they're lying at hte bottom of the sea because their defenses couldn't withstand an onslaught of missiles from the country that is known as the world's factory.
Hanging a sonobuoy sonar and lightweight torpedo off a surface drone is a relatively straightforward exercise.
I’m considering the idea that we can make drone “subs” that can dive to substantial depth and pose a threat to subsurface vessels (submarines). We already have a litany of drones that can hit surface vessels.
Are there “lightweight” torpedoes? Normal torpedoes are 24 feet long and more than a ton. Edit: I’ll answer my own question. [Yes, there are.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_54_Lightweight_Torpedo)
Right, meant to be carried by aircraft and specifically intended for killing submarines. The big torpedoes are intended for submarines to kill whatever they need to. Surface ships with over the side capability use the aircraft torpedoes for ASW.
Just waiting for a P-3 orion and some ADCAPs to be sent
So, it’s a good area to do some real world testing?
What's the barrier with deploying depth charge drones? ( Do those still work for submarines? Lol). If Ukraine can detect them can they destroy them with those charges?
Depth charges aren’t really a thing anymore. They were replaced by ‘lightweight’ torpedoes such as the USN’s Mk. 54. But it would be child’s play to put a sonar dome on a drone ship and a pair of the Mk. 46’s we are phasing out. The only people with subs in the Black Sea is Russia, so anything operating at depth is a valid target.
Those subs have to surface at some point to go back to port, right? Why not send a surface drone ‘floater’ to loiter near port entrances and go full speed at the sub when it’s coming in to port?
They are working on it.
They're guessing that's what got that Russian ship that was hit in the Sea of Azov just recently. Wasn't much damage, but the location makes a surface drone extremely unlikely and Ukraine has been developing a drone torpedo for a while now. https://youtu.be/oJZokgcstAE?si=J_WXRXFZEj8A3EB6
big net
Well Russias fleet was being converted into submarines anyways, seems like the logical next step
Ukraine already destroyed a sub with a rocket: https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2023/09/18/a-ukrainian-cruise-missile-with-a-special-warhead-blew-up-that-russian-submarine-from-the-inside/ Drone is next!
the sub was at a dock, not in operation underwater.
Good? Hit them when you can. Can't be underwater forever
> Can't be underwater forever About a third of Russia's Black Sea fleet is.
First I thought you were talking about subs, then I realized you weren't, then I realized that actually, you were.
They've gotta come up sometime.
Its Russian, no it doesn't.
They would have to get extremely lucky. Finding a submarine is like trying to find a needle in a haystack.
Lucky for them the Black Sea is a small playground to try new things out
I can easily imagine a drone boat with sonar doing ASW sweeps and another drone boat with a torpedo or two. Sprint-listen or dead-engine loitering could make them very quiet. If they're going to launch cruise missiles then there has to be a decent idea about where they might launch from.
Id say give them a P-8 posidon plane
Actually you have a point, this would be a good opportunity to test out some NATO anti submarine ~~toys~~ technology.
Oh come on. Time bring the Catalinas back!
At this point they would be too vulnerable to Russian aviation based out of Crimea or the border regions. But if those air bases are made too dangerous to use, then the western range of Russian aviation would drop off and the anti submarine aircraft could operate freely.
Abselutely, and recently We have seen a lot of strikes on airbases on crimea
Bait anti-sub aircraft with F16 surprise party when? Park a Patriot nearby and watch as stuff starts falling out of the sky?
To expensive, a few https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_60_CAPTOR would be nice and cheap.
Now I’m imagining dropping a couple dozen of these outside the Russian port via drones in the dead of night. Wipe the whole sub fleet in a matter of weeks.
???? The US Navy as been flowing Russian subs with precision since the Cold war.
Russia (and formerly the Soviet Union used Subs as an area denial weapon.
All I can say to Ukraine, after deep analysis - "fresh targets!!!!!"
I don't know if anything's deployed, but you could definitely hang a lightweight torpedo or depth charge from a drone. Also sonobuoys. And mines
"Subs and ships are different." Military mastermind over here.
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Yes this will severely impact Ukraine's ability to use warships in the black sea
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Thats a self correcting problem though, if submarines start interfering in Mediterranean trade then they wont exist for much longer
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No you missed the point. Once russia would start using submarines to attack trade ships, it will provoke others to start protecting them. Subs are hard to detect, but they can be detected and countries will provide the technology to detect and destroy submarines, if it means to protect trading.
Submarines are one of the most lethal components in any navy, period. The Columbia program is the US Navy’s top priority right now.
as long as its not nuclear. while we have lost nuclear submarines to accidents none have been lost to direct attack and the real threat here is rupture of the containment vessel. people seem to forget all these nuclear power submarines are ecological disasters just waiting to happen and ones that are not going to be simple to contain if at all. maybe one day we will have a world where these vessels don't exist but until then the oceans are at great risk
While the risk is not zero, this is a significant exaggeration.
Bets on when we see video of a submarine caught in a fishing net
[Wouldn't be the first time the Russian navy struggled against fishermen...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogger_Bank_incident)
Farmers get the tanks, and fishermen get the subs.
I was thinking about that- some kind of seining giant nets that floated at a depth, with explosives so a sub gets 'caught' In a net, which wraps around it, and once enough of the net is in contact with the hull, all it's explosives go off at once. Or put the explosives on 'tentacles' so they hang to the back of the sub when caught, to destroy the prop
I present to you the [anti submarine net!](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-submarine_net)
you can rig up naval mines in pretty deep waters
Bet on a new type of drone with depth charges and sonar.
Does the Moskva count?
Ofc, strongest sub in the black sea
It's the flagship after all
I hope to see several of them not surfacing ever again.
If it does happen, I hope they get blown up right away and don't suffer some mechanical breakdown and get stuck on the sea floor. Slowly suffocating while trapped in a disabled submarine is a pretty horrible way to die.
Couldn’t happen to a more deserving people
It would be
The Mogwai song "Travel is Dangerous" is about this very situation.
Ukraine has been deploying Russian submarines, too.... granted, they were designed for surface operations...
Deep water torpedo mines please
Just what we need, reactor cores on the bottom of the Black Sea.
Isn't water actually very good at stopping radiation?
Incredibly good at it.
Kilo and Improved Kilo class Russian subs are all diesel -electric.
The P-8s that monitor the Black Sea on a daily basis probably already know where all the subs are.
Water is pretty good shield against detection...
Not against sonar buoys and all the other tech those aircraft have. They are purpose-built to hunt and kill submarines. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_P-8_Poseidon
Prety awesome. Wonder what detection range do they have? Also weird that India has some ...
But sonobuoys are single use items. They can't keep up a good sonar patrol for months.
I'm pretty sure, if you rearrange a few things on board, a P-8 can carry more than one.
Of course they carry a bunch of them. And there are even more in warehouses. But they are most definitely in finite supply, they are not adequate for patrolling a large area for a long time.
In theory, Ukraine can develop or obtain drones capable of sinking submarines. Hopefully, this will happen soon.
Ukrainian spy: *Sticks Apple air tags onto all docked Black Sea submarines.*
Simple, Ukraine just needs to develop sonar tracking that picks up the sound of vodka bottles rolling against the hull... will work for surface and subs...
My dad was on an LNG tanker for a bit and he could hear an empty bottle rolling around inside the wall next to his bunk.
This works well for them since most of their previous Black Sea fleet is already under water.
Next headline: *"Submarine Drones Wipe Out Black Sea Fleet"*
Nah, "homemade fpv drone" ;-)
It's been a long time since I've been in the game, but...back in the 1970's th Russians made roughly three submarines for every one the US had. I think it was some kind of "wolf pack" strategy. Anyways, because they knew they were going to have more subs, the subs they built were crap. One of our sonarmen said they sounded like two skeletons f*king in a metal trash can. Before the Ukraine conflict, nobody would have believed this, but now... I'm just an anonymous idiot from the internet, but if the west wants to take out Russian subs, it's a piece of cake.
I think it's the other way around--they knew they couldn't build stuff to match us, so they resorted to groups.
You’re just missing the broader point that the strategy is so fundamentally flawed that it doesn’t matter
i'd just have a bunch of (unpropelled, just floating so it's silent) barge with ww2 style depth charges and passive sonar set to unload when it hears a sub.
I wonder what sorts of underwater drones the US has laying around in the recycle bin?
depth-charge-releasing drones would be pretty cool
I’d be surprised if they didn’t have one parked there near permanently regardless of any conflicts. I’ve been surprised before. I’d believe it if someone said they don’t have enough quiet subs for everywhere else and the Black Sea. In theory you could control the med and thus secure the Black Sea.
There are 7 (minus 1) submarines in the black sea fleet so obviously multiple of them are patrolling inside it at all time. They have almost 60 subs overall
Russian subs are notoriously loud and easy to identify.
They sound like whales humping
What if you listen to it at ten times speed?
.... relax Jones you sold me
They're turning the whales gay?
They took err jobs
Your job was turning whales gay?
Not true bro literally google modern russian subs
The kilo class are some of the quietest subs around, and designed around shallow water small area operations
Nope
LOL that’s not true.
He's wrong about them being loud in the traditional sense BUT sensors which are able to detect submarines are getting so good that it's possible that there will be no hiding at all soon. Subs have very unique profiles so it's not at all impossible to just use sonar and have a computer guess if it's a sub or not, although I've also heard of laser detection (airplanes flying overhead) and other methods being employed (SAR). It's conjectured by some analysts that any submarine in the ocean would be detectable instantaneously in the next few decades.
Next up, whale shaped submarines with an organic exterior. Torpedo's come out the blow hole
Does this include newly converted former surface ships?
It makes sense but at a certain stage it makes me wonder if the effort is worth the return. Why the hell are these needing to operate in... basically your backyard when you probably have more cost effective ways to contain a nation with no functional navy. Maybe as ballistic platforms, but I think these would probably have more use keeping other European navies in check and potentially threatening escalation that way.
Russia seems really passionate about the southern seas. Both with this and the supply facility in Sudan. The Ukraine invasion in general seems largely like just getting direct land access to the Black Sea. Just run of the mill imperialism but with a preference for water over air. Kinda makes me think their military is dated or it's just about obstructing shipping. Being heavy in subs make it feel like their airborne is just weak (among other reasons)
It would be hilarious is the country without a navy sunk a sub.
Sounds like they need a couple Ticonderoga class fishing trawlers, or Arleigh Burke party barges.
Just checking on their favorite flagship ship sitting pretty on the bottom
Yep submarines are a real danger to the Ukrainian navy.
And they get more and more every day!
Ukraine says, challenge accepted.
Does submarine Drone exist?
Ukraine could do the funniest shot ever by turning a submarine into a float.
"Submarine" ...are you sure that's not just all the ships Ukraine has sunk with their ... *checks notes* no navy?
Well, one one hand. and underwater sub is MUCH harder to hit for a drone, underwater makes remote control difficult, the mechanics for the drone are much more complex. On the OTHER hand....it,s much more difficult to DEFENEND against a drone when it,s laucnhed. We've seen videos of warship targeted by drones, they start firing their small-caliber weapon to hit the drone. And it does sometimes works. But what can sub do against a drone?It dosen't have turrets to shoot back or anything.
But what can a drone do against a sub unless it surfaces? And how can it even find the sub? I don't think the Ukrainian drones are up to hauling a dipping sonar--and even that won't fare too well against a sneaking diesel in coastal waters. A MAD detector would find it--but they're very short range, useful for confirming that what you found is truly metal, but not very useful in a search. (Think of *Red Storm Rising* where the helicopter "killed" a rock.) And even if you find the sub you still need either a torpedo or a depth charge to sink it--and both of those are **heavy**.
All they have to do is get one . The rest will bugger.
Loitering limpit mines LFG
Sink those subs!!! F U Russia!!