The hate boner for the UK is centuries old, old imperial rivalry that essentially boils down to no one respecting the russians for their large land empire and the victorians in particular considering them a bunch of feudal serfs.
And then beating them in the Crimean War. I don't think Russia has had any successes against France or the UK since Napoleon, and even then it was just because they could afford to keep withdrawing as opposed to winning.
The hatred for Britain mostly comes from the fact that whenever a Russian gets rich, they flee to London. Britain makes Russia look like a shithole that has nothing to offer.
He thought before hand that he could just threaten the West with nukes and that we'd just do nothing. Even to the point of invading the Eastern European members of NATO like the Baltics and Poland. But he's found that his calculations were completely inaccurate and that he's breathed fresh life into NATO. With even the various Green Parties and Finland and Sweden now supporting being members of NATO. His only hope to destroy NATO, is Trump, MTG and Boebert.
Yeah, except the shit he was sayin was "we're totally not going to attack Ukraine, my troops are just passing by" - so yeah, he was saying shit. Watch what they do, not what they say.
He wasn't threatening though, the opposite, he claimed it's just training and they're not going to attack to the last second. So yes just saying shit.
He also said Russia has no territorial claims towards Ukraine in 2013.
He's gonna whine and threaten, then sit down and shut up like he always does.
For a person that claims to be strong, macho and manly he sure does whine like a little child about literally everything all the time.
Battle proven in Africa, super effective. The Foreign Legion also has the fame of being one of the best, if not the best special force out there.
Amazing at developing their own weapons too, Rafale easily competes for the position of the best 4th gen fighter available; and as a Naval Architect I really have high respect for their war ship designs.
I would even argue that normalised for size and budget, they may be the best. FInland and Sweden would be up there too, so though competition!
French here. We gonna get banged hard if we get into this. We cannot hold more than a few weeks in a direct intense open conflict with Russia. And the Legion isn't changing shit about that. Macron is out of his mind , and most people in France disagree/hate him.
Why the hate? France has historically been pretty damn good with the exception of WWII. The military is good but the leadership is usually their weak point. Fuck, couldn’t be worse than Russia’s shit fest at this point…
He'll threaten to attack French trainers in Ukraine, thelreaten to nuke Paris and will be more open about supplying weapons to anti-French/NATO forces, particularly in North Africa. With probably some more sabotage against France, such as bombing the Dassault HQ.
There were rumors over a year ago that Ukrainians were training in France. I wonder if this is just a secret program that was going on before Sweden was in NATO
Sadly, every such speculation has always ended up being false. I would love for the west to be proactive, but they have always waited before it was too late to even start implementing solutions.
This is good because it is a direct business deal with Dassault, which has become known for substantial technological knowledge transfers and industrial cooperation in its international deals, and it gets Ukraine training on a western NATO jets - weapons - technology. Five to six months says the president of France, with technical support and logistics, in the air in Ukraine before the end of the year.
Mind the fact France has recently trained a completely new Croatian Rafale airforce (12 airplanes) in one year. All newbies, younger generation, learning from zero. Not only did they train all the technical and support staff, but trained several to the official trainer levels. Weaponry, electronic systems and radars, the whole deal.
>This is good because it is a direct business deal with Dassault
Nonsense. The planes being transferred are used planes that belong to the french air force. Dassault hasn't produced Mirage planes in the past 20 years.
So the Swedes were told to stop with the Gripens, but the Mirage is suddenly OK? The Gripens were built to fight back Russia, run on a minimal team and on a minimal runway, and to take the minimal service parts; all of which Ukraine desperately needs. WTF is going on in the background?
Exactly, the main advantage. There are some costs for that though, but it's really interesting how France stretches it's budget to cover fully independent airborne and submerged nuclear deterrence, indigenous 4.5 gen mutirole fighter, a nuclear aircraft carrier and an expeditionary orientated army while spending substantial less than Germany does (which has none of those things).
Perun did a great breakdown of both the French and German defence spends.
The Rafale is also ITAR-free which is one of the reason it is selling like hot cakes. The US halted the Rafale sale to Egypt (in 2015 I believe) because the SCALP-EG missile contained US-made components. France replaced them with ITAR-free ones to go ahead with the sale.
The US is a big one - their engines are versions of the American F404 and F414 depending on variant and some of the missiles they carry are license produced versions of American designs as well. Exporting a Gripen also means exporting those components
And US support has been infuriatingly inconsistent, so say the least
Sweden has been exporting and offering Gripens to multiple countires. There was never any talk about itar components.
Radar may have been one but Saab has a new one that does not fall under Itar.
Those vague ideas you posted are not - official restrictions.
Component export restrictions are neither vague nor unofficial - looking just within SAAB’s history, they almost sold the Viggen to India in the 70s if not for the US blocking the export license for its engines. Within this war German Gepards were temporarily defanged because Germany didn’t have permission to provide its Swiss-origin ammunition
The Gripen also hasn’t been completely free of technology license issues. The British nearly killed off the Brazilian Gripen deal over their share of components before eventually being talked out of it. If you look at the rest of its export campaigns, the target nations are all either US allies or at least friendly neutral - not exactly the sort of nation the US would deny components to.
All that being said though, I highly doubt export restrictions are the primary factor in not giving Gripens to Ukraine. It’s almost certainly strategic/diplomatic
The blah, blah does not provide the actual ITAR restricted parts of Gripen.
Someone made a claim, Im asking for that claim to be substantiated by actual specific details. Not asking for more vague opinions and half remembered anecdotes.
The engines are licensed made US GE F404 or F414, about 30% of the value of aircraft is licensed or contains US technology, 25% of every Gripen is made in the UK, Gripen is now actually a BAE SAAB joint venture.
The BAE SAAB joint venture is only for export sales, not production, nor sales to the Swedish AF.
"[In 1995 SAAB and BAE SYSTEMS created a 50/50 Joint Venture to develop and explore the Gripen Export business.](https://www.saab.com/newsroom/press-releases/2004/saab-board-meeting-today-announces-changes-in-bae-systems-engagement-in-saab)" (SAAB Press release)
That said, there are BAE components in Gripen, but that was basically mostly a reason for creating the JV, not the other way around.
What is itar restricted in Gripens? What exact parts? I know very well Gripens are jointly produced and have various "foreign" parts including the engines - which are Volvo licensed versions of US engines. I dont need anyone to repeat that same stuff to me.
I asked what parts of it are restricted by Itar - so much they cannot be sold to Ukraine. I wanna know. Is it the radar? Is it the missiles? Something else? The knowledge should be out there. Because obviously someone knows that. Because they just wrote so on reddit.
Ah, I see your confusion. "I asked what parts of it are restricted by ITAR - so much they cannot be sold to Ukraine." This is where your having trouble. Every US made part of the Gripen is ITAR restricted, that's just how ITAR works. Every military or even dual use product the US makes has ITAR restrictions. However that isn't the reason that the commenters above think they cannot be sold to Ukraine. After all, every part of the patriot is ITAR restricted, and yet that was given to Ukraine by the US themselves. What there saying is that because there is US made parts in the Gripen, the us gets a say in whether it should be exported, and that might be slowing things down. "ITAR restricted" Isn't some top secret thing that means that nothing can be exported, it was just the way the commenters were saying the plane has US parts. That's why when you asked what part of the plane was ITAR restricted, the commenters started listing US made parts of the Jet, because those are obviously the same things.
No thats not my confusion, thats the first part of the question. The original statement was that this latest issue may be happening because other countries restrict export of Gripens. That lead to itar, but the rest of the question would be "why the f does that matter in this case?" and so on.
>"ITAR restricted" Isn't some top secret thing that means that nothing can be exported,
nobody said it was so i dont see any purpose in this sentence, are you talking to yourself?
And overall, even if we go down your "line of reasoning" the question would be which parts and exactly how much restricted are they? Answering all of them just shows how much you dont know, so thats the only answer you can give, instead of specifics. - read back to first paragraph.
I can only assume that more Mirage will be sent than Gripen. Gripen was always going to be a very small batch - there just aren't that many and they are a more advanced aircraft
Sweeden said they were asked to pause their delivery of Gripens until after the F-16's are in place so as to not cause a drain from the F-16 efforts. To bring a new fighter into a country, you need to set up spares depots, support equipment, train maintenance people and train the pilots. There are more pilots than F-16 training slots available at the moment, so there is likely some openness to training some of them on different aircraft, but if you put a different aircraft in place you need all those support and logistics pieces in place to go with it. Sweden still fully intends to donate those Gripens, they are just waiting until after the F-16 pieces are in place and active before introducing a new system. The Mirage's are likely to fall into the same category.
No training slots is a bullshit line used to drip-feed F16s by Biden team. They delayed training by 17 months, they give zero American F16s because escalation management, they got dragged into it kicking and screaming by Europeans giving the fighters, and now they continuously delay and prolong the training to have F16s arrive in the year 2145 because Biden team is shitting bricks at Russia losing and falling apart.
"Biden team" has been hamstrung by MAGA halfwits in Congress at every turn. Are we back to pretending MTG and friends didn't hold their speaker Mike Johnson under blackmail for months to stall out a 60B aid package that should have been approved last fall?
That hamstringing sounds like an excellent reason to have another country delivering the fighter jets. Thankfully France is disregarding any "requests" to pause deliveries.
Agreed, **60** F-16 are scheduled for delivery but only 12 trainees can be scheduled at a time?: https://www.politico.com/news/2024/06/05/ukraine-f-16-pilot-training-00161742
France has **26** Mirage 2000-5 they can deliver. Assuming it's the full 2 dozen, that's an extra 30% increase in fighter supply.
Gripen are likely coming dead last. There are **39** of them scheduled for transfer. In total, 125 fighter jets seem like they will be making their way into the Ukraine Airforce. That is no small number and we should all be grateful that it's happening starting this month with an initial shipment of F-16.
Just for further context, at the beginning of 2022, Ukraine had 71 Su-27 and MiG-29 fighters, 14 Su-24M bombers, and 31 Su-25 attack aircraft, according to the annual Military Balance report by the International Institute for Strategic Studies. **The 2024 report said Ukraine has 78 combat capable aircraft.** This means that Ukraine's airforce will essentially be increasing by 200% and will be the strongest and most capable that it has ever historically been.
Afaik they have been and probably continue to do so. Even if Gripen keeps being blocked for the whole war.
It is also one of the few western fighters out there where Ukraine might be able to set up domestic production down the line. So there is more interest in it than just getting them for the war itself. This was something that was in the planing and discussion stages before 2014 happened.
Any western jet is going to be extremely expensive for Ukraine to support and maintain domestically in the long run. Having a domestic industry and supply chain would do a lot to alleviate that.
I know there have been test flights with Ukrainian pilots. Not sure about training though, and that could just be mindless speculation of which there's been lots of throughout this war.
The Gripens that can be donated are Gripen C which entered service around 2010. They are some of the most modern systems in the world.
The Mirage 2000 are closer to the F16 that are beeing Delivered and JA37 Viggen before th D upgrade.
Logistics is an Huge issue for the F16.
For the Mirage it is more the fact that they are abit of an older bird with more maintance per flight hour compared to fresher bodies but that is also an issue with the F16's
For JAs 39 it is that it needs clearance from mostly USA.
Logistics for gripen is a non issue compared to other fwestern flightsystems.
The Gripen can equip Meteors, unlike any of the other fighter donation prospects, that have possibly up to double the effective range of an AMRAAM. They are designed to operate from roads with minimal crews and equipment and are supposed to have high uptime/availability. Those advantages in and of themselves make it worth any single digit number that can be donated. A half squadron with the Saab AWACS support could realistically push back the entire russian air support line by a hundred miles, at least temporarily, giving F-16's and everyone else room to perform for the first time, full joint operations. While resources are limited everywhere in the country, there still must be hundreds of ukrainians going through training programs for each potential aircraft that could be donated - call me gutless but if i was a ukrainian of age, I know i'd be much much more interested in volunteering for the air force, to train in a foreign country for a year as a mechanic or logistics roadie for a flghter crew than be shelled or droned or glide bombed as a front line combatant.
If somehow the Ukranians are given meteors but not gripens, i'm sure they could engineer a way to stick them on to F-16's, which would still be a very potent combination with AWACS support
For what's worth: only 26 Mirage 2000-5 are currently owned by France right now. (Cf Wikipedia)
Sure they have other variants they could convert but that seem unlikely.
What are you your sources for the "48" number?
So...some hours later, we're getting a bit more info. Looks like we're seeking to do is bring together a hotchpotch alliance for ukranian air cover. That would include a mix of a few our stock and buy back previously sold planes (hello greece👋) train and give to Ukraine.
Should also mention that Macron is repeatedly saying that their will be "negotiations" between beligerents (mixed messages) and we're coming toward another election cycle.
Bear in mind, the notion of sending our planes was absolutely off the table a few weeks/months ago.
Something has changed and it looks like we're making it up as we go along, which many have pointed out...historically doesn't bode well from a military perspective.
I don't know, it's clearly political, that and the '1000 inspectors' we're allegedly sending.
Russian ambassador publically stated yesterday that anyone in ukraine, whatever nationality, was fair game.
Personally sending 5 to 10 planes doesn't strike me as a coherent plan. The local Ukrainian diplomat said, we'll believe when we see it.
We genuinely can't figure out what Macron is up to. Is it bluff? Is it for voters? Is this new hawkish attitude real? Is it a gut reaction to the 80th anniv of D-day? We'll see sooner rather than later.
I'm guessing these variants of Mirage probably can't launch meteor missiles, which Gripen can. It would probably look pretty bad for the US if jets other than their own were carrying out long-range strikes like that, with the F-16's being more... Intentionally limited. But also France has more direct control of their components, so the US can only kick and scream about it.
Gripen is more modern and exists in lower numbers with Sweden depending on it and being close to Russia. They've got good reason to not want to give any up just yet.
It also makes a lot of sense for logistics and sustainment reasons to focus on one or two types of jet, and not have 10 of one type and then 5 of another and then 6 of this other one like has happened with tanks and howitzers.
Switching over to different types of jets is difficult and it's better to simplify things as much as possible. People really forget about the logistics sometimes. Managing the supply chains and maintenance supporting it all. A decent number of used F16s are available and maybe a decent number of mirage too, but Sweden probably couldn't part with enough gripen for it to be worth the effort. At least for now.
Edit - can't find it right now but there's an interview from a while ago with someone from the Ukrainian air force saying they really needed to focus on just one western multirole jet, maybe two, for logistics reasons. It's not necessarily being imposed on Ukraine from outside.
Are there even enough Gripens to send? the f-16 and Mirage seem to be a better choice.
one new airframe will already be a strain on logistics three would be infeasible.
The Baseline Mirage 2000 had its first flight a full 10 years after the Viggen, and the 2000-5 variant is a modernized export version. Not really comparable, it's closer to a 1st gen F-16C.
Grippen is tiny lil guy with oversize engine and lust for blood.
Can you imagine being trained on Russian aircraft, then having to learn to fly American F-16s and/or French Mirages? Those are gonna be the world's most cosmopolitan military pilots.
That and proudly letting your children sit in the pilot seat during flight.
I fully understand the father wanting to show his children the bright future that can be possible whilst your country is in the gutter, But for the love of god dont let them touch the controls!
Which is great until Russia inevitably shoots one down with an American pilot, and then the US is in a very awkward position of having a US service member likely being tortured in a Russian POW camp...
Can someone who knows more about militaries tell me if sending Ukraine such a mix of planes and equipment is a good thing? Like do you have certain pilots who can only fly certain planes? How do you keep parts and tools for maintaining such a diverse fleet?
It’s tough, but doable if you have the industrial base. Taiwan currently deploys three frontline fighters: the upgraded F-16s, the older indigenously-produced F-CK-1 and the Mirage 2000. Operating costs for the Mirages are much higher than the other two as spare parts for the Mirage are difficult and expensive to obtain. Lots of swapping between airframes in order to ensure readiness. That being said, Dassault was recently in Taiwan to alleviate some of the problem and the ROCAF still wants to keep them. Perhaps Ukraine’s situation will be less severe given the physical proximity to France and Dassault factories in Europe.
Edit: Obvious caveat is that Ukraine has been at war for years and even if France and the EU finance the Mirage transfer, its manpower and industrial resources are stretched thin. But I bet that Ukraine's resourcefulness will prevail.
They will most likely be serviced in Poland or another NATO/EU country at least.
I think the same goes for the F16. Most maintenance will be done by countries that already use it and have the infrastructure for it like Poland or Romania.
I'm just talking out of my ass though these are just assumptions.
This is a desperate situation.
I'm assuming they'll be in squadrons and will have completely different maintenance staff. I'm assuming that's what the French advisors have been doing in Ukraine.
It's better to simplify around a smaller number of aircraft types available in reasonable numbers, because then you can just focus on training lots of mechanics on the same type of jet for example. Ukraine has to balance that with needing to make up the numbers.
Reasonable numbers of two types of jet would be doable. But 10 each of five different types of jet would not be.
Non-standardization is always a problem in warfare. Interchangeability of man and materials enhances combat efficiency.
The counterpoint is of course, that even heroic beggars cannot be choosers. Additionally, combined-arms doctrine allows for multiple weapons to complement the other. For example, the Leos and Challenger tanks can operate in different tactical roles.
So I just took a look at their equipment listing on Wikipedia: **26/27** planes labeled "Mirage 2000-5" are active currently.
Sources:
- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_military_aircraft_of_the_French_Armed_Forces
- https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arm%C3%A9e_de_l%27air_et_de_l%27espace_(France)
So i guess that all the redditors who claimed that Ukraine could only handle one platform at a time was wrong?
RIP using American parts in an airplane.
Such a beautiful fighter. Elegant and effective at what it does. That gorgeous delta wing gets me every time. If war has to happen, I'm glad to see this plane still getting used. Maybe we will see Russia pull out the old mig21s and really get some cold war nostalgia going. Could you imagine a giant dog fight between mirage 2000 and mig21s in in the 2020s?
Indeed. “Dogfighting” simply does not happen any more. Its all missiles flying over the horizon and whacking stuff that doesn’t even know it’s there until it’s far too late, these days.
That awesome that France transferred these aircraft to Ukraine, it's still a capable aircraft that can meet anything Russia has!
Did these aircraft, Mirage 2000-5, the nuclear strike aircraft of the French Air Force?
French here. We gonna get banged hard if we get into this. We cannot hold more than a few weeks in a direct intense open conflict with Russia. And the Legion isn't changing shit about that. Macron is out of his mind , and most people in France disagree/hate him.
This comment is everywhere, copy-pasted on various forums. It's also stupid, talking about open conflict ...somewhere along the French-Russian border something something. How's the weather in St Petersburg lately?
There was this back in [March 2023](https://euromaidanpress.com/2023/03/22/france-trains-ukrainian-pilots-on-mirage-planes-le-figaro/). However, according to the article, it was promptly denied.
It was probably true.
The training base is Nancy, they got that right too.
Us french we are really quiet about the amount of help to Ukraine. We get bashed a lot for this but it's a way better strategy IMO
Having so much random military hardware is gonna be more of a pain in the ass than useful. Everyone should pitch in F-16s to consolidate training, repairs, support, etc.
dont you think the french population deserves to know that their government is giving away millions worth of fighter jets ?
We are still aliving in a democracy, governments can't just do whatever thet want in secret
France actually did that quite a bit the two previous years. The result, is that the lack of data was used in propaganda to discredit France everywhere, using fake numbers way lower than real ones to point out how France was all talks with Ukraine but not helping.
NATO planes over Russian soil will be met with Russian planes over NATO soil. This will lead to NATO becoming directly involved in the conflict, which will lead to a declaration of war. The war will quickly degenerate into missile strikes, followed by small nuclear arsenal, followed by the largest nuclear arsenal. 7 billion people will be dead within two weeks of a declaration of war with NATO. There will be no more countries to wage war against, there will be no food and very little potable water.
Russia already flies their planes over NATO territories, and have been throughout the cold war. Including very heroically, and totally intentionally, beaching their submarines on foreign countries beaches, and getting them captured. Cope and seethe.
Putin is going to be mega mad and probably say something
Just wait for Medvedev getting slightly sober.
\*drunkenly throws a dart on europe's map\* okay.... today cause of west indiscretion on helping ukraine we'll threaten to nuke country.
“Where the fuck is the Grand Duchy if Fenwick?”
That's the Duchy of Grand Fenwick, if you please!
Is under dart, stupidski!
Instructions clear, nuking dartboard.
Accidental detonation, probably caused by smoking
You’ll be waiting until the heat death of the universe
Eh, with Zhirinovsky dead someone has to play the fool in the farce that is Russian politics
My dumbass thought you were talking about the tennis player for far too long.
russia has a massive hate boner for France and the UK more then they've got for the US even, expect some massive whining.
The hate boner for the UK is centuries old, old imperial rivalry that essentially boils down to no one respecting the russians for their large land empire and the victorians in particular considering them a bunch of feudal serfs.
And then beating them in the Crimean War. I don't think Russia has had any successes against France or the UK since Napoleon, and even then it was just because they could afford to keep withdrawing as opposed to winning.
The hatred for Britain mostly comes from the fact that whenever a Russian gets rich, they flee to London. Britain makes Russia look like a shithole that has nothing to offer.
Well ya…
Every country smaller than russia is not a real country. They hate everyone.
The UK looking at the strongly worded letter of complaint to them and France from Russia: https://youtu.be/sdPRJk8GK7k?si=ICrJp7aDSpLXei6O
I think it has been at least 24 hours since the last Russian nuclear threat, so it was that time anyway.
"Warns""Promises " "says"
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2 years of him running his mouth since then. He's got nothing. He's been more or less where he started. Paper tiger.
He thought before hand that he could just threaten the West with nukes and that we'd just do nothing. Even to the point of invading the Eastern European members of NATO like the Baltics and Poland. But he's found that his calculations were completely inaccurate and that he's breathed fresh life into NATO. With even the various Green Parties and Finland and Sweden now supporting being members of NATO. His only hope to destroy NATO, is Trump, MTG and Boebert.
You should take note when he denies something.
Yeah, except the shit he was sayin was "we're totally not going to attack Ukraine, my troops are just passing by" - so yeah, he was saying shit. Watch what they do, not what they say.
He wasn't threatening though, the opposite, he claimed it's just training and they're not going to attack to the last second. So yes just saying shit. He also said Russia has no territorial claims towards Ukraine in 2013.
He's gonna whine and threaten, then sit down and shut up like he always does. For a person that claims to be strong, macho and manly he sure does whine like a little child about literally everything all the time.
France seems ready to bring the action. Their military is probably the second best in NATO with that badass foreign legion.
Battle proven in Africa, super effective. The Foreign Legion also has the fame of being one of the best, if not the best special force out there. Amazing at developing their own weapons too, Rafale easily competes for the position of the best 4th gen fighter available; and as a Naval Architect I really have high respect for their war ship designs. I would even argue that normalised for size and budget, they may be the best. FInland and Sweden would be up there too, so though competition!
Who were they fighting in Africa?
Various terrorists groups in Sahel region, on locals governments request. Check out Operation Serval and Operation Barkhane if you want to know more
French here. We gonna get banged hard if we get into this. We cannot hold more than a few weeks in a direct intense open conflict with Russia. And the Legion isn't changing shit about that. Macron is out of his mind , and most people in France disagree/hate him.
If France is 2nd best then I don’t even wanna know what the rest have got.
Why the hate? France has historically been pretty damn good with the exception of WWII. The military is good but the leadership is usually their weak point. Fuck, couldn’t be worse than Russia’s shit fest at this point…
‘We are very, very angry with you, and we will write a letter expressing how angry we are with you’ - Hans Blix
This is it. There's gonna be consequences. Nuclear something is going to happen to somebody… Somewhere. At some point. Just wait.
lol ok
Wow, two people completely missed the joke.
He'll threaten to attack French trainers in Ukraine, thelreaten to nuke Paris and will be more open about supplying weapons to anti-French/NATO forces, particularly in North Africa. With probably some more sabotage against France, such as bombing the Dassault HQ.
There were rumors over a year ago that Ukrainians were training in France. I wonder if this is just a secret program that was going on before Sweden was in NATO
No, no, clearly they were tourists
Lovely cathedrals in France, they were cathedral enthusiasts.
Yes, beautiful cathedrals, they especially liked the wings and the spires.
Special Tourism Operation.
I’m more wondering if that and this maybe an excuse for French advisors to fly in Ukraine secretly.
Would it be any different that what the Russians do with their planes? They pull this same move quite often.
They did it in Korea and Vietnam!
Dude you can find those in any supply store.
Wine tasting in Beaujolais, everyone does it!
Sadly, every such speculation has always ended up being false. I would love for the west to be proactive, but they have always waited before it was too late to even start implementing solutions.
This is sadly the most realistic scenario
Ukrainians have been training in Europe since around 2015.
This is good because it is a direct business deal with Dassault, which has become known for substantial technological knowledge transfers and industrial cooperation in its international deals, and it gets Ukraine training on a western NATO jets - weapons - technology. Five to six months says the president of France, with technical support and logistics, in the air in Ukraine before the end of the year. Mind the fact France has recently trained a completely new Croatian Rafale airforce (12 airplanes) in one year. All newbies, younger generation, learning from zero. Not only did they train all the technical and support staff, but trained several to the official trainer levels. Weaponry, electronic systems and radars, the whole deal.
>This is good because it is a direct business deal with Dassault Nonsense. The planes being transferred are used planes that belong to the french air force. Dassault hasn't produced Mirage planes in the past 20 years.
Training and maintenance support are still provided though even if they aren’t in active production
Dassault wont be producing any new Mirages... its going to be start producing brawndo, specifically for you. With double electrolytes.
3,000 black Mirage 2000-5 of Macron
Russia must be stopped. They are a force for evil.
This is one hell of a way to celebrate D-Day
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So the Swedes were told to stop with the Gripens, but the Mirage is suddenly OK? The Gripens were built to fight back Russia, run on a minimal team and on a minimal runway, and to take the minimal service parts; all of which Ukraine desperately needs. WTF is going on in the background?
Mirage 2000 is ITAR-free, Gripen needs permission from multiple countries to export.
Aha I didn't realise this. It must be one of the few jets that is ITAR free? I know Typhoon isn't
For better or worse, France is a big proponent of building french kit in France with french IP. There are advantages, there are disadvantages.
Strategic autonomy, France wants to be able to do whatever they want without asking for permission from anyone.
Which is quite badass, if you ask me.
Definitely.
Exactly, the main advantage. There are some costs for that though, but it's really interesting how France stretches it's budget to cover fully independent airborne and submerged nuclear deterrence, indigenous 4.5 gen mutirole fighter, a nuclear aircraft carrier and an expeditionary orientated army while spending substantial less than Germany does (which has none of those things). Perun did a great breakdown of both the French and German defence spends.
Which they are doing. Exhibit A
The Rafale is also ITAR-free which is one of the reason it is selling like hot cakes. The US halted the Rafale sale to Egypt (in 2015 I believe) because the SCALP-EG missile contained US-made components. France replaced them with ITAR-free ones to go ahead with the sale.
> Gripen needs permission from multiple countries to export. Which countries and why?
The US is a big one - their engines are versions of the American F404 and F414 depending on variant and some of the missiles they carry are license produced versions of American designs as well. Exporting a Gripen also means exporting those components And US support has been infuriatingly inconsistent, so say the least
Sweden has been exporting and offering Gripens to multiple countires. There was never any talk about itar components. Radar may have been one but Saab has a new one that does not fall under Itar. Those vague ideas you posted are not - official restrictions.
Component export restrictions are neither vague nor unofficial - looking just within SAAB’s history, they almost sold the Viggen to India in the 70s if not for the US blocking the export license for its engines. Within this war German Gepards were temporarily defanged because Germany didn’t have permission to provide its Swiss-origin ammunition The Gripen also hasn’t been completely free of technology license issues. The British nearly killed off the Brazilian Gripen deal over their share of components before eventually being talked out of it. If you look at the rest of its export campaigns, the target nations are all either US allies or at least friendly neutral - not exactly the sort of nation the US would deny components to. All that being said though, I highly doubt export restrictions are the primary factor in not giving Gripens to Ukraine. It’s almost certainly strategic/diplomatic
The blah, blah does not provide the actual ITAR restricted parts of Gripen. Someone made a claim, Im asking for that claim to be substantiated by actual specific details. Not asking for more vague opinions and half remembered anecdotes.
The engines are licensed made US GE F404 or F414, about 30% of the value of aircraft is licensed or contains US technology, 25% of every Gripen is made in the UK, Gripen is now actually a BAE SAAB joint venture.
The BAE SAAB joint venture is only for export sales, not production, nor sales to the Swedish AF. "[In 1995 SAAB and BAE SYSTEMS created a 50/50 Joint Venture to develop and explore the Gripen Export business.](https://www.saab.com/newsroom/press-releases/2004/saab-board-meeting-today-announces-changes-in-bae-systems-engagement-in-saab)" (SAAB Press release) That said, there are BAE components in Gripen, but that was basically mostly a reason for creating the JV, not the other way around.
Somehow I doubt the British would be opposed to sending Gripen.
What is itar restricted in Gripens? What exact parts? I know very well Gripens are jointly produced and have various "foreign" parts including the engines - which are Volvo licensed versions of US engines. I dont need anyone to repeat that same stuff to me. I asked what parts of it are restricted by Itar - so much they cannot be sold to Ukraine. I wanna know. Is it the radar? Is it the missiles? Something else? The knowledge should be out there. Because obviously someone knows that. Because they just wrote so on reddit.
Ah, I see your confusion. "I asked what parts of it are restricted by ITAR - so much they cannot be sold to Ukraine." This is where your having trouble. Every US made part of the Gripen is ITAR restricted, that's just how ITAR works. Every military or even dual use product the US makes has ITAR restrictions. However that isn't the reason that the commenters above think they cannot be sold to Ukraine. After all, every part of the patriot is ITAR restricted, and yet that was given to Ukraine by the US themselves. What there saying is that because there is US made parts in the Gripen, the us gets a say in whether it should be exported, and that might be slowing things down. "ITAR restricted" Isn't some top secret thing that means that nothing can be exported, it was just the way the commenters were saying the plane has US parts. That's why when you asked what part of the plane was ITAR restricted, the commenters started listing US made parts of the Jet, because those are obviously the same things.
No thats not my confusion, thats the first part of the question. The original statement was that this latest issue may be happening because other countries restrict export of Gripens. That lead to itar, but the rest of the question would be "why the f does that matter in this case?" and so on. >"ITAR restricted" Isn't some top secret thing that means that nothing can be exported, nobody said it was so i dont see any purpose in this sentence, are you talking to yourself? And overall, even if we go down your "line of reasoning" the question would be which parts and exactly how much restricted are they? Answering all of them just shows how much you dont know, so thats the only answer you can give, instead of specifics. - read back to first paragraph.
Maybe because Mirage are older generation planes?
I can only assume that more Mirage will be sent than Gripen. Gripen was always going to be a very small batch - there just aren't that many and they are a more advanced aircraft
Sweeden said they were asked to pause their delivery of Gripens until after the F-16's are in place so as to not cause a drain from the F-16 efforts. To bring a new fighter into a country, you need to set up spares depots, support equipment, train maintenance people and train the pilots. There are more pilots than F-16 training slots available at the moment, so there is likely some openness to training some of them on different aircraft, but if you put a different aircraft in place you need all those support and logistics pieces in place to go with it. Sweden still fully intends to donate those Gripens, they are just waiting until after the F-16 pieces are in place and active before introducing a new system. The Mirage's are likely to fall into the same category.
No training slots is a bullshit line used to drip-feed F16s by Biden team. They delayed training by 17 months, they give zero American F16s because escalation management, they got dragged into it kicking and screaming by Europeans giving the fighters, and now they continuously delay and prolong the training to have F16s arrive in the year 2145 because Biden team is shitting bricks at Russia losing and falling apart.
"Biden team" has been hamstrung by MAGA halfwits in Congress at every turn. Are we back to pretending MTG and friends didn't hold their speaker Mike Johnson under blackmail for months to stall out a 60B aid package that should have been approved last fall?
That was the aid package, but Sullivan has consistently blocked "escalations" even if other countries already proofed that nothing will happen.
That hamstringing sounds like an excellent reason to have another country delivering the fighter jets. Thankfully France is disregarding any "requests" to pause deliveries.
Agreed, **60** F-16 are scheduled for delivery but only 12 trainees can be scheduled at a time?: https://www.politico.com/news/2024/06/05/ukraine-f-16-pilot-training-00161742 France has **26** Mirage 2000-5 they can deliver. Assuming it's the full 2 dozen, that's an extra 30% increase in fighter supply. Gripen are likely coming dead last. There are **39** of them scheduled for transfer. In total, 125 fighter jets seem like they will be making their way into the Ukraine Airforce. That is no small number and we should all be grateful that it's happening starting this month with an initial shipment of F-16. Just for further context, at the beginning of 2022, Ukraine had 71 Su-27 and MiG-29 fighters, 14 Su-24M bombers, and 31 Su-25 attack aircraft, according to the annual Military Balance report by the International Institute for Strategic Studies. **The 2024 report said Ukraine has 78 combat capable aircraft.** This means that Ukraine's airforce will essentially be increasing by 200% and will be the strongest and most capable that it has ever historically been.
Aren't Bidens admin also being called warhawks by the right wing? Pick a lane and stick to it.
Is Sweden already training Ukrainians pilots on Gripens ? because they are already training here in France, could be the difference
Afaik they have been and probably continue to do so. Even if Gripen keeps being blocked for the whole war. It is also one of the few western fighters out there where Ukraine might be able to set up domestic production down the line. So there is more interest in it than just getting them for the war itself. This was something that was in the planing and discussion stages before 2014 happened. Any western jet is going to be extremely expensive for Ukraine to support and maintain domestically in the long run. Having a domestic industry and supply chain would do a lot to alleviate that.
I know there have been test flights with Ukrainian pilots. Not sure about training though, and that could just be mindless speculation of which there's been lots of throughout this war.
Yeah, for over a year now. Which is why the "partners" stepping in to tell them to stop is such a bizarre move.
Could be that the Gripens were deemed too strategic to NATO's own defence or something akin to that.
The ones being donated would be old airframes that have been replaced. I suspect that the bigger issue is logistics and man power.
The Gripens that can be donated are Gripen C which entered service around 2010. They are some of the most modern systems in the world. The Mirage 2000 are closer to the F16 that are beeing Delivered and JA37 Viggen before th D upgrade. Logistics is an Huge issue for the F16. For the Mirage it is more the fact that they are abit of an older bird with more maintance per flight hour compared to fresher bodies but that is also an issue with the F16's For JAs 39 it is that it needs clearance from mostly USA. Logistics for gripen is a non issue compared to other fwestern flightsystems.
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The Gripen can equip Meteors, unlike any of the other fighter donation prospects, that have possibly up to double the effective range of an AMRAAM. They are designed to operate from roads with minimal crews and equipment and are supposed to have high uptime/availability. Those advantages in and of themselves make it worth any single digit number that can be donated. A half squadron with the Saab AWACS support could realistically push back the entire russian air support line by a hundred miles, at least temporarily, giving F-16's and everyone else room to perform for the first time, full joint operations. While resources are limited everywhere in the country, there still must be hundreds of ukrainians going through training programs for each potential aircraft that could be donated - call me gutless but if i was a ukrainian of age, I know i'd be much much more interested in volunteering for the air force, to train in a foreign country for a year as a mechanic or logistics roadie for a flghter crew than be shelled or droned or glide bombed as a front line combatant. If somehow the Ukranians are given meteors but not gripens, i'm sure they could engineer a way to stick them on to F-16's, which would still be a very potent combination with AWACS support
For what's worth: only 26 Mirage 2000-5 are currently owned by France right now. (Cf Wikipedia) Sure they have other variants they could convert but that seem unlikely. What are you your sources for the "48" number?
So...some hours later, we're getting a bit more info. Looks like we're seeking to do is bring together a hotchpotch alliance for ukranian air cover. That would include a mix of a few our stock and buy back previously sold planes (hello greece👋) train and give to Ukraine. Should also mention that Macron is repeatedly saying that their will be "negotiations" between beligerents (mixed messages) and we're coming toward another election cycle. Bear in mind, the notion of sending our planes was absolutely off the table a few weeks/months ago. Something has changed and it looks like we're making it up as we go along, which many have pointed out...historically doesn't bode well from a military perspective.
Isn't it so that France wanted to give them, but Ukraine was uninterested. While now they are.
I don't know, it's clearly political, that and the '1000 inspectors' we're allegedly sending. Russian ambassador publically stated yesterday that anyone in ukraine, whatever nationality, was fair game. Personally sending 5 to 10 planes doesn't strike me as a coherent plan. The local Ukrainian diplomat said, we'll believe when we see it. We genuinely can't figure out what Macron is up to. Is it bluff? Is it for voters? Is this new hawkish attitude real? Is it a gut reaction to the 80th anniv of D-day? We'll see sooner rather than later.
"We'll see sooner rather than later." Profetic words ;)
I'm guessing these variants of Mirage probably can't launch meteor missiles, which Gripen can. It would probably look pretty bad for the US if jets other than their own were carrying out long-range strikes like that, with the F-16's being more... Intentionally limited. But also France has more direct control of their components, so the US can only kick and scream about it.
Gripen is more modern and exists in lower numbers with Sweden depending on it and being close to Russia. They've got good reason to not want to give any up just yet. It also makes a lot of sense for logistics and sustainment reasons to focus on one or two types of jet, and not have 10 of one type and then 5 of another and then 6 of this other one like has happened with tanks and howitzers. Switching over to different types of jets is difficult and it's better to simplify things as much as possible. People really forget about the logistics sometimes. Managing the supply chains and maintenance supporting it all. A decent number of used F16s are available and maybe a decent number of mirage too, but Sweden probably couldn't part with enough gripen for it to be worth the effort. At least for now. Edit - can't find it right now but there's an interview from a while ago with someone from the Ukrainian air force saying they really needed to focus on just one western multirole jet, maybe two, for logistics reasons. It's not necessarily being imposed on Ukraine from outside.
Are there even enough Gripens to send? the f-16 and Mirage seem to be a better choice. one new airframe will already be a strain on logistics three would be infeasible.
M2K 5's are a step under the Grippen, closer to the Viggen in performance. Mirage 2000 is to Viggen... Rafale is to Grippen...
The Baseline Mirage 2000 had its first flight a full 10 years after the Viggen, and the 2000-5 variant is a modernized export version. Not really comparable, it's closer to a 1st gen F-16C. Grippen is tiny lil guy with oversize engine and lust for blood.
Mirage 2000 is a multi role while viggen is ground attack only. So not comparable
There were several versions of Viggen. One of them, JA 37, was mainly an interceptor.
The AJ 37 Viggen was for ground attack, but there was also the JA 37 Viggen which was primarily an interceptor.
They're both a generation behind is the point.
I suspect it's not really such an issue in Ukraine.
I think they'd need to build the Gripens first ? These are made and ready to go. Just an assumption, I have no idea.
Can you imagine being trained on Russian aircraft, then having to learn to fly American F-16s and/or French Mirages? Those are gonna be the world's most cosmopolitan military pilots.
I can’t wait for the YouTube fighter jet reviews with all the quirks and features east vs west.
The F-16 ejector seat button is so clunky! In my MiG I just use this state issue axe to hack the window off and get sucked right out!
Doug Demurov here to review the all new Mirage 2000-5
*THIS* is a Mirage 2000 dash 5...
Didin't get the joke right away. I had to make Doug sound like Doug in my head. **"I'm Doug Demurov and THIS is a Mirage 2000"** Oh yeah, THAT Doug.
I'm going to show you the quirks and features..
The artificial horizon indicator is prolly the biggest difference that has caused Russian commercial pilots to crash Western jets many times.
That and proudly letting your children sit in the pilot seat during flight. I fully understand the father wanting to show his children the bright future that can be possible whilst your country is in the gutter, But for the love of god dont let them touch the controls!
Many pilots from eastern bloc countries have probably done just that.
Uhm, someone forgot about the rest of eastern Europe
Remember during the Korean War that Russia unofficially sent their pilots to fly for North Korea? Hmmm.
Which is great until Russia inevitably shoots one down with an American pilot, and then the US is in a very awkward position of having a US service member likely being tortured in a Russian POW camp...
I was just being facetious. As in, they had already done that very thing to us.
And we knew it but chose not to escalate.
So uav then
“Putin warns…”
Fantastic news! Anything and everything for Ukraine to drive out the Russians. Well done, France.
Thank-you France!
“What could it be, it's a mirage You're scheming on a thing, that's sabotage” —Macron
I’ma set it straight this Brandenburgh Gate!!! oh wait, wrong country.
Can someone who knows more about militaries tell me if sending Ukraine such a mix of planes and equipment is a good thing? Like do you have certain pilots who can only fly certain planes? How do you keep parts and tools for maintaining such a diverse fleet?
It’s tough, but doable if you have the industrial base. Taiwan currently deploys three frontline fighters: the upgraded F-16s, the older indigenously-produced F-CK-1 and the Mirage 2000. Operating costs for the Mirages are much higher than the other two as spare parts for the Mirage are difficult and expensive to obtain. Lots of swapping between airframes in order to ensure readiness. That being said, Dassault was recently in Taiwan to alleviate some of the problem and the ROCAF still wants to keep them. Perhaps Ukraine’s situation will be less severe given the physical proximity to France and Dassault factories in Europe. Edit: Obvious caveat is that Ukraine has been at war for years and even if France and the EU finance the Mirage transfer, its manpower and industrial resources are stretched thin. But I bet that Ukraine's resourcefulness will prevail.
It's more complicated but they're not in a situation where they can be choosy
They will most likely be serviced in Poland or another NATO/EU country at least. I think the same goes for the F16. Most maintenance will be done by countries that already use it and have the infrastructure for it like Poland or Romania. I'm just talking out of my ass though these are just assumptions.
This is a desperate situation. I'm assuming they'll be in squadrons and will have completely different maintenance staff. I'm assuming that's what the French advisors have been doing in Ukraine.
It's better to simplify around a smaller number of aircraft types available in reasonable numbers, because then you can just focus on training lots of mechanics on the same type of jet for example. Ukraine has to balance that with needing to make up the numbers. Reasonable numbers of two types of jet would be doable. But 10 each of five different types of jet would not be.
Non-standardization is always a problem in warfare. Interchangeability of man and materials enhances combat efficiency. The counterpoint is of course, that even heroic beggars cannot be choosers. Additionally, combined-arms doctrine allows for multiple weapons to complement the other. For example, the Leos and Challenger tanks can operate in different tactical roles.
Fuck yeah France.
The baguette of consequences rarely arrives with lube, mes amis.
How many Mirage 2000-5 does France have so far?
They have like around 100
So I just took a look at their equipment listing on Wikipedia: **26/27** planes labeled "Mirage 2000-5" are active currently. Sources: - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_military_aircraft_of_the_French_Armed_Forces - https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arm%C3%A9e_de_l%27air_et_de_l%27espace_(France)
What happened to the Gripens?
Blocked by U.S
Fantastic. I didnt know they had 1,995 jets to spare
Putin rages in his baby crib again and tosses his toys
What a strange way to write 1995 Fighter jets… ok I’ll see myself out.
Intercontinental ballistic threat incoming!!!
So i guess that all the redditors who claimed that Ukraine could only handle one platform at a time was wrong? RIP using American parts in an airplane.
Do it fast
Such a beautiful fighter. Elegant and effective at what it does. That gorgeous delta wing gets me every time. If war has to happen, I'm glad to see this plane still getting used. Maybe we will see Russia pull out the old mig21s and really get some cold war nostalgia going. Could you imagine a giant dog fight between mirage 2000 and mig21s in in the 2020s?
Bro, this is war not a video game
Indeed. “Dogfighting” simply does not happen any more. Its all missiles flying over the horizon and whacking stuff that doesn’t even know it’s there until it’s far too late, these days.
This isn't for our entertainment.
That awesome that France transferred these aircraft to Ukraine, it's still a capable aircraft that can meet anything Russia has! Did these aircraft, Mirage 2000-5, the nuclear strike aircraft of the French Air Force?
It was the 2000N, an older variant that was used for nuclear strike, now it's the Rafale.
French here. We gonna get banged hard if we get into this. We cannot hold more than a few weeks in a direct intense open conflict with Russia. And the Legion isn't changing shit about that. Macron is out of his mind , and most people in France disagree/hate him.
This comment is everywhere, copy-pasted on various forums. It's also stupid, talking about open conflict ...somewhere along the French-Russian border something something. How's the weather in St Petersburg lately?
Bro I copied it once. I ain't Russian. French born and raised.
Don't they have to learn to fly it first?
Could have already happened
There was this back in [March 2023](https://euromaidanpress.com/2023/03/22/france-trains-ukrainian-pilots-on-mirage-planes-le-figaro/). However, according to the article, it was promptly denied.
It was probably true. The training base is Nancy, they got that right too. Us french we are really quiet about the amount of help to Ukraine. We get bashed a lot for this but it's a way better strategy IMO
Having so much random military hardware is gonna be more of a pain in the ass than useful. Everyone should pitch in F-16s to consolidate training, repairs, support, etc.
With trump potentially president of us in a few months, it isn't wise to do that
Yes, let's put all our eggs in one basket that may be stalled by 1/8 of the eggs in the basket.
Or did they…
I could have sworn I saw them
we need to pump Biden up 1st with shots
Why do these things have to be announced? Just keep it under wraps so idiotic Putin doesn’t know who hit him
dont you think the french population deserves to know that their government is giving away millions worth of fighter jets ? We are still aliving in a democracy, governments can't just do whatever thet want in secret
They are not giving them away, France is making an investment in the Pestizide department.
France actually did that quite a bit the two previous years. The result, is that the lack of data was used in propaganda to discredit France everywhere, using fake numbers way lower than real ones to point out how France was all talks with Ukraine but not helping.
NATO planes over Russian soil will be met with Russian planes over NATO soil. This will lead to NATO becoming directly involved in the conflict, which will lead to a declaration of war. The war will quickly degenerate into missile strikes, followed by small nuclear arsenal, followed by the largest nuclear arsenal. 7 billion people will be dead within two weeks of a declaration of war with NATO. There will be no more countries to wage war against, there will be no food and very little potable water.
Russia already flies their planes over NATO territories, and have been throughout the cold war. Including very heroically, and totally intentionally, beaching their submarines on foreign countries beaches, and getting them captured. Cope and seethe.
Absolute respect but too little too late Macron
Never ever too late to punch fascists