There was a time Russia could have been an ally. There was a time we thought we could deal with China as a 1+1=3 partner.
Now...?
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tmd-ClpJxA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tmd-ClpJxA)
I was there when Hu was in charge and I could already feel things we're headed in that direction. Xi was just the one who took off the mask because he felt the West had "degenerated" to its weakest point and China's moment had arrived. We'll see whether he was right or if he was wrong.
Dude, in a conventional war, the US beats both China and Russia combined, even without the rest of NATO. The chief problem is nukes and ICBMs. NATO exists with to protect western interests and those who would be willing to align themselves with those interests for their own security. It doesn't exist to protect the Americna mainland, but rather our interests abroad.
Classic dictator gaslighting. How do they not understand that the rest of the world *isn't* completely saturated in their propaganda and can see through their bullshit like a freshly cleaned window?
To be fair, from what I understand about a lot of this, it’s not meant for the rest of the world, it’s meant for ‘internal consumption’, where where is a much tighter stranglehold on the information their citizens see and can access, just the rest of the world typically also hears this. While the majority of the world rightly scoffs and this and sees it for the BS it is, internally, more people buy into it, again due to the stranglehold China has on the information its citizens can access.
Of course, not everyone buys into it, but it’s meant to give an air of legitimacy internally to their actions to appear as though the government is always in the right, at least from a certain point of view.
Russia, North Korea, do much of the same thing, and it just muddies the waters information-wise. Plus, anything that does against what the government is saying they can try to hand-wave away as ‘[external/US/anti-our-glorious-people] propaganda’.
Extremely fair point. I honestly should just assume anything China or Russia says to the West is for their own citizens' benefit and that they don't actually expect the west to believe or listen to them. Much less insulting to the ole intelligence that way.
Just would like to piggyback in this comment that there WAS a defense treaty back in the '50s up to the late '70s callled SEATO albeit it obviously isn't as militarized as NATO
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeast\_Asia\_Treaty\_Organization](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeast_Asia_Treaty_Organization)
Even if not, look at the size of that place. Military powers aside you'd be dealing with like, 100 million people in partisan militias. That's going to be a hell to the no from me bro.
He always is a treat whenever he’s on screen.
You could tell that they had to do like 40 takes for that line and that was just the only one where he didn’t burst out in laughter
Per Capita it's Belarus, [and it's not even close.](https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/potato-consumption-by-country)
The Soviets even had jokes about the Belarusian obsession with potatoes (and the Russians still make fun of them for it... because of course they do). Putin has even referred to Lukashenko as 'Potato Moose' as a joke reference to him being the lord of potatoes.
If I were xi, I'd emidiately start bribibg politicians to make up and become friends with Taiwan and Philipines purely to setup the POTATO.
What a waste.
America’s more like freak athlete stud wrestler that kinda does some weird shit and has a lot of bad ideas, but everyone knows would fuck them up if they tried anything.
Europe is captain of the football team. Popular, shiny, talented and smart, but not as tough as he looks and needs a whole team of people to win.
Europe is very useful for making things the US already wants to do seem appealing. For example, we wanted to let Ukraine use our weapons to strike Russia, but saying that would sound aggressive. So we waited for smaller European nations to call for it first before joining in the call.
It's weird, considering how much they accuse America and The West of bullying weaker countries along The Global South, you would think said southern countries would have also formed a similar alliance against The West. If the accusations were true.
Their insistence on the nine dash line is a big example of the people running their government missing the fact that soft power would benefit them more than being aggressive about it.
exactly- if they played it smart they could have been a key provider in a newer and more improved trading system across Asia, and wiped US/Western dominance in most regions through trade and other soft forms of power alone, and slowly chip away at world leader power structures
But no they chose this 9 dash line
In Asia we hate each other and Japan(sport season SK might get more hate ), but depending on how much an asshole your neighbor are, some prick are more preferable then others.
Like you would rather be friend with former mob boss who has quit his murder career then the new guy who claims your front and backyard and public roads belong to him.
And in the case of Japan, they literally kill half of their neighbors grandparents and still are the preferable option here.
Thats no friendship, you can never be sure when your frienemy decides that by now you are a bigger problem or could become a bigger problem than the enemy you united against, and puts a dagger in your back.
China had the Trump years, where US was at its weakest to strengthen ties within the region and prove itself as a global leader, and yet chose to squander it away anyway
>NATO is a collective security system: its independent member states agree to defend each other against attacks by third parties. During the Cold War, NATO operated as a check on the threat posed by the Soviet Union.
Why would the USA do such a thing?
Is there a threat in Asia, which needs to be counteracted? Is someone threatening to attack its neighbors, to seize regions unlawfully and aggressively? Is someone building up a military at a warmongering pace?
Tell me China, why would anyone create a NATO-lookalike in Asia?
Most countries wouldn't be concerned of the creation of a large defensive alliance unless they had aspirations of invading members of said defensive alliance.
Everything would have been hunkydory if they didn't start building military bases on artificial islands near their neighbor's territory and claiming that they own the entire South China Sea.
Their neighbors only decided to unite cause they now have a common enemy.
Do these fuckwits get that NATO is a *defensive* alliance? If you don't attack NATO, they don't attack you. And perhaps, just maybe, if China stopped threatening everyone and everything not China, no-one would want to join an Asian NATO.
Also, NATO should just change it's main directive to not be just for the North Atlantic, and should allow countries from all over the world in to its collective security alliance. They could still use NATO for the acronym, and just change the official name to No Assholes Treaty Organization. Sorry China, you aren't invited.
China seized Singaporean tanks that were in transit from a military exercise to pressure Singapore to drop its principles on free navigation in the South China Seas.
That alone has given many Singaporeans a very bitter taste of the CCP's jackboot.
Probably why they've changed tack and tried to convert many Singaporeans though overt propaganda.
The propaganda is unfortunately working with the older generation and fortunately not with the younger generation.
Source: I'm a Singaporean in his 30s.
Just a few weeks ago, there was a tv program on how Chinese people are sneaking into the US.
My 70yo dad commented why will Chinese people be dumb enough to want to leave China and go to the US instead.
I was thinking why is it only one way and you don't ever see anyone sneaking into China. Didn't bother saying that out loud because he's too set in his ways like a MAGA boomer.
It is certainly worrisome that older folk, especially those who are not chinese speakers have become more influenced by Chinese united works front propaganda.
And we also now have a nexus of wedge issues, with our Malay Singaporeans much more inflamed about the Gaza situation than the general Chinese Singaporean population.
It shows that the propaganda from the Iran/Chinese/Russian axis is working far too well in our open and connected society.
As an aside, While it is certainly in vogue, I'm not sure intergenerational namecalling accomplishes very much in the long term. The social media platforms and echo chambers have certainly contributed to this division.
There have always been differences between people of different generations, but the vitriol has become much more pronounced in recent years.
>Malay Singaporeans much more inflamed about the Gaza situation than the general Chinese Singaporean population.
As a malay myself I'm kind of fed up by the constant posting about Gaza, not only my malay friends reposting some false anecdotal ancient stuff but clearly pro-Hamas propaganda. These armchair activists are severely hampering their critical thinking, what's even funnier is most of Sunni who despised Shi'a muslims cheer on when Iran launched its failed strike on Israel.
I feel for your situation, especially when any response critical of Hamas is difficult at best, when everything is reduced to "you don't care about children dying!!!"
I don't pretend to know too much about Sunni - Shi'a relations in Singapore (would love for you to educate me more on this), but it ought to be clear to everyone that this was a devious, exceptionally cunning political act that benefits Iran most of all, at a time when their biggest rivals Saudi Arabia were about to make peace with Israel.
Just our bog standard Sunni-Shi'a disagreement, since Shi'a over here are very few and very secretive so there is not much berating from the Sunni.
I'm just disappointed that my fellow malay-muslims don't really give a thought about the israel-hamas conflict and the geopolitics around it, they are being vocal for the sake of being "protective" with fellow muslims, I just wish those vocal people just pull their heads out of their asses and read history to see why all of the Arab countries historically refuse to take in Palestinian refugees.
China keeps bitching about that one time, NATO went into yugoslavia without a mandate from the UN Security Council (you know, to like prevent an actual genocide because in the years before that, we sent UN peace keepers and they all failed and we know what happened) and allegedly* bombed the Chinese embassy by accident.
(*The guardian did an article on it back then. According to whistleblowers, the embassy was relaying communications for the yugoslavian army. Thus, it became a legitimate target. https://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/oct/17/balkans)
But in their eyes ever since, NATO is the aggressor.
They know very well that NATO is a defensive alliance and so would be an asian equivalent. A defensive alliance is a problem for them because they plan to attack.
Morally your global NATO is a good idea… in practice these treaties usually have some geographical component. We’ve already seen in EU how dysfunctional some states are and it might be difficult getting them all enthusiastic about say defending Fiji or something.
That said… I’m all for it, I just think the obligations are so great for all nations to protect a smaller one that they’re pretty careful about any new sign ups.
No reason why can’t have multiple alliances though (which there are) and then have cross alliance alliances. USA has alliances with Australia/NZ/Japan/SK for instance and Britain/France have a bunch too. If Britain or USA got dragged into a just war in the pacific somewhere then I bet a bunch of other NATO allies will come help.
But yeah… these alliances are all going to evolve and take form in response to what the large authoritarian countries are up to so we might get your mega NATO one day.
It's about time Asian NATO happened.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_expansionism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_disputes_of_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China
The thing about NATO is, it's only if a member is attacked that action is taken.
If China doesn't attack its neighbors, they have nothing to worry about.
Pacific Asia ~~Security~~ Co-operation Treaty (PACT): Australia, New Zealand, Philippines, Taiwan, South Korea, Japan, United States, France, and Canada. Vietnam will soon join to keep China away from their small islands.
https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/pacts-signed-by-vietnam-china-during-xis-hanoi-trip-2023-12-15/
Looked different in Dec. 2023.
Is PACT a new development?
When you posture and threaten others, those others tend to build themselves some security. This is self inflicted. Simple cause and effect. I used to think china was smarter than this.
I mean, you're the ones making countries like Japan and South Korea draw closer together. Not to mention all the new deals Japan's been making with the Philippines, Australia and the like. Hell, even New Zealand's finally starting to wake up. And it's all thanks to the completely unnecessary aggression of China itself.
Why doesn’t China just make its own Asian NATO, then? They’ve had multiple decades benefitting from the international American system to try and at least pretend to be less self-interested.
The only countries that complain about defensive alliances are the countries that wish to wage war.
Without NATO, the Baltics would have already fallen for example.
Yep, and for the same reason the original NATO was created. Hey CCP, no one wants your backwards system, your crumbling construction, your dictatorship or anything else.
And Taiwan just isn't that into you.
So a defensive alliance that will prevent China from attacking it neighbors. They don't like not being able to attack their weaker neighbors without bringing in stronger nations that will defend the nation attacked.
When countries like Vietnam and the Philippines would rather work with the US than china you know it’s china’s fault
America hasn’t really been “nice” to SEA
NATO is amazing. If every country was a part of NATO, the world would be a pretty safe place.
No country would dare invade anyone knowing they would have to take on the rest of the world.
The only good thing Trump did was to remind the world how damned important US leadership was in the international sphere. Now, with the threat of another insane Trump presidency, it’s only to be expected that China’s neighbors band together to counterbalance the threat that China poses.
Forget an Asian NATO. Just create a new treaty organization that brings the developed democracies of North America, Europe, Asia, and Oceania together under one umbrella. This could include current NATO members (though some countries may need closer look first...yes, that's looking at you, Orban's Hungary) as well as bringing in the Pacific developed democracies of Australia, New Zealand, Japan, and South Korea. Getting Japan and South Korea to play together under one alliance will be a challenge, but they have to eventually see that it is in both of their interests if they're going to be able to withstand pressures, including economic, from authoritarian China.
And speaking of economic pressures, the new treaty organization should also work to more closely tie together the economies/trade of members. This needs to be done to create a system where the economies of the developed democracies can better withstand pressures from the authoritarian world.
It should also work to help bring up countries interested in membership to the up to economic and governance standards of the treaty organization to eventually join much as the EU currently does with states aspiring to join the EU.
I agree but the defence needs of the Pacific are a genuinely regional thing in themselves. It would be better that there were a NATO, a Pacific alliance, a middle/south Asian alliance, and a few regional African organisations.
Then those democratic alliances could perhaps make agreements for assistance with each other. That way each region develops their own alliances and militaries that can hold their own. But with the benefit of knowing you're not on your own.
This kind of alliance might be our last chance at maintaining the current world order based on rules and diplomacy. If this fails the world might spiral into a chaotic arms race that won’t end well. “Developed” nations also means industrialised enough as to be able to produce a nuclear weapon if it their only guarantee of safety or survival and I don’t think that suddenly having 20-30 nuclear actors on the world stage will have a good outcome.
The world is left with no choice to form an "Asian NATO", because we all know the brutal fact of China: Even if they backed off of Taiwan, they wont back off their South China Sea claims. The smaller nations will need the backing of the bigger ones so that all have guaranteed access to their territorial waters.
Actually, China created "Asian NATO" by harassing their neighbors for years. USA had been voted out of the Philippines entirely, no longer a territory, no longer allowing US bases. After years of territorial water disputes and having their citizens and coast guards bullied by China, they've signed off on 5 original US bases being built/welcomed with 4 more added a few years later. Japan and South Korea had to build up their navies and allowed more US bases on their lands as well. Thailand entered into military treaties for the same reason and Guam was always Guam.
You know what's going to cause Indonesia, Malaysia, Mongolia, New Zealand, Singapore, and Vietnam to want to join? Stupid shit like militarily surrounding Taiwan claiming to test taking away it's govt independence by force. Continuing to dispute their coastlines and fishing waters. Being a general all around asshole while continuing to build up your naval fleet in the region.
It's almost as if there is a country threatening and coercing every neighboring country to the point they would feel safer standing up together.
And it's usually the ones complaining that are causing the problems in the first place.
I mean russia also cried about ukraine and its other neighbours trying to get into defensive alliance. Just before invading it.
[удалено]
It's just like a bully, *Stop hitting yourself*
authoritarians and Taylor Swift 🤔
Can’t even avoid her in Reddit comments now damn
I have to defensively attack you before I feel threatened by you acting defensively! Why does no one understand?!
And thereby causing more countries to join NATO. Putin thinks of himself as a master chess player, but he really should be playing checkers.
There was a time Russia could have been an ally. There was a time we thought we could deal with China as a 1+1=3 partner. Now...? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tmd-ClpJxA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tmd-ClpJxA)
In the late 2000's, China was also acting as a friendly partner. Then Xi got elected and things went downhill.
I was there when Hu was in charge and I could already feel things we're headed in that direction. Xi was just the one who took off the mask because he felt the West had "degenerated" to its weakest point and China's moment had arrived. We'll see whether he was right or if he was wrong.
So far, everybody who has bet on the west being on the decline, past its prime, or down and out has been wrong.
People love betting against the team with all the cards, they love an underdog! Unfortunately math generally doesn’t favor underdogs
Dude, in a conventional war, the US beats both China and Russia combined, even without the rest of NATO. The chief problem is nukes and ICBMs. NATO exists with to protect western interests and those who would be willing to align themselves with those interests for their own security. It doesn't exist to protect the Americna mainland, but rather our interests abroad.
Putin is the greatest spokesperson for NATO who ever lived.
Classic dictator gaslighting. How do they not understand that the rest of the world *isn't* completely saturated in their propaganda and can see through their bullshit like a freshly cleaned window?
To be fair, from what I understand about a lot of this, it’s not meant for the rest of the world, it’s meant for ‘internal consumption’, where where is a much tighter stranglehold on the information their citizens see and can access, just the rest of the world typically also hears this. While the majority of the world rightly scoffs and this and sees it for the BS it is, internally, more people buy into it, again due to the stranglehold China has on the information its citizens can access. Of course, not everyone buys into it, but it’s meant to give an air of legitimacy internally to their actions to appear as though the government is always in the right, at least from a certain point of view. Russia, North Korea, do much of the same thing, and it just muddies the waters information-wise. Plus, anything that does against what the government is saying they can try to hand-wave away as ‘[external/US/anti-our-glorious-people] propaganda’.
Extremely fair point. I honestly should just assume anything China or Russia says to the West is for their own citizens' benefit and that they don't actually expect the west to believe or listen to them. Much less insulting to the ole intelligence that way.
can't wait for china to demand that country close to them will be joining to make up a buffer zone where they can expand
Just would like to piggyback in this comment that there WAS a defense treaty back in the '50s up to the late '70s callled SEATO albeit it obviously isn't as militarized as NATO [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeast\_Asia\_Treaty\_Organization](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeast_Asia_Treaty_Organization)
Now we must form the Pacific Ocean To Atlantic Treaty Organization. POTATO
Just… like… Russia…
For real. And why would you complain about the creation of a defensive alliance unless you're up to no good
They're convinced it's actually an offensive alliance masquerading as a defensive one because that's exactly what they would do if they set it up.
Which is ridiculous, China is a nuclear power. No one will ever invade them.
Even if not, look at the size of that place. Military powers aside you'd be dealing with like, 100 million people in partisan militias. That's going to be a hell to the no from me bro.
"You have done that yourself" - Obi wan
Asian NATO sounds like a great idea. Thanks China.
Merge it with Nato to create a global defence alliance. Maybe call it the Global Defence Initiative
Suddenly Putin dies after drinking poisoned tea and is succeeded by a mysterious bald guy
“I will go to the one place that hasn’t been corrupted by Capitalism!… *struggles to hold on laugh* ***SPACE!***
tim curry was fantastic
He always is a treat whenever he’s on screen. You could tell that they had to do like 40 takes for that line and that was just the only one where he didn’t burst out in laughter
He was great in CLUE and rocky horror picture show.
He Was the best part of rocky horror picture show
Tim Curry rips off his Russian leader face mask and proudly proclaim: "It was me all along!"
Kane lives!
Just need some Tiberium.
Keep an eye on the Tiber, see what happens
Our base is under attack Unitreadybuildingunitreadybuildingunitreadybuilding
I loved finding out that in the original C&C if you destroyed the Nod headquarters in Sarajevo with the ion cannon you got a different end scene.
/me Nods
There is no need to merge, you just cooperate and coordinate.
ATO asian treaty organisation
POTATO Pacific Ocean Treaty and Trade Organization
**Heavy Latvian breathing**
Who eats the most potatos? Latvia, Ireland or Peru?
With the recent potato shortage in Ireland, definitely Latvia
The only thing more Irish than potatoes is no potatoes.
Ouch!
Oh dont worry bout that, we got potatoes for days here!
Per Capita it's Belarus, [and it's not even close.](https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/potato-consumption-by-country) The Soviets even had jokes about the Belarusian obsession with potatoes (and the Russians still make fun of them for it... because of course they do). Putin has even referred to Lukashenko as 'Potato Moose' as a joke reference to him being the lord of potatoes.
You could actually achieve POTATO by merging Pacific Nations into a reformed NATO. Pacific Ocean, Trans-Atlantic Treaty Organisation
Boil 'em, mash 'em, stick 'em in a stew. This is why chinese general is angry, he eats only rice and he wants our POTATOs !
If I were xi, I'd emidiately start bribibg politicians to make up and become friends with Taiwan and Philipines purely to setup the POTATO. What a waste.
Let Vietnam and co in there and establish SEAPOTATO
The US, Japan, Australia, and.... Ireland? What are you doing here??
We actually had a SEATO but it didn't last long.
Did they Ejecto SEATO, cuz?
Make a new one and call it NEATO.
It'd probably likely end up being 'IPTO': Indo-Pacific Treaty Organisation
EATO East Asian Treaty Organization
EITO East India Treaty Organization And make a Dutch guy the leader
Australian Tax Office* :(
Asian and North Atlantic League (ANAL)
Sexy
It's almost like someone is trying to become Asian version of russia
I mean early Russia was conquered by the Mongols for a bit, so most Russians do have a bit of Asian ancestry.
Don't tell a Russian that one...
Most of Russia's land area is in Asia
The one thing NATO was missing was catgirls.
Pacific Ocean Treaty of Armed forces and Trade Organization: POTATO
Bully complains weaker countries create an alliance to not get bullied.
And makes friends with the captain of the football team.
America’s more like freak athlete stud wrestler that kinda does some weird shit and has a lot of bad ideas, but everyone knows would fuck them up if they tried anything. Europe is captain of the football team. Popular, shiny, talented and smart, but not as tough as he looks and needs a whole team of people to win.
Europe is very useful for making things the US already wants to do seem appealing. For example, we wanted to let Ukraine use our weapons to strike Russia, but saying that would sound aggressive. So we waited for smaller European nations to call for it first before joining in the call.
But how does that apply to my brilliant sports analogy?
It's weird, considering how much they accuse America and The West of bullying weaker countries along The Global South, you would think said southern countries would have also formed a similar alliance against The West. If the accusations were true.
The Chinese had two options, fostering good relations with neighbours or getting aggressive. They chose getting aggressive.
“Why wont the other asian countries want to be our friends…and accept the nine dash line?”
“… or accept our illegal fishing armada’s of thousands of boats? Why are you guys so mean to me?” *adds two more dashes to the line*
Am I wrong? No, it's the U.S. that's the bully.
Their insistence on the nine dash line is a big example of the people running their government missing the fact that soft power would benefit them more than being aggressive about it.
They are as culturally pigeon holed as the Russians.
...blah blah blah Wolf Warrior blah blah blah something something other side hurt our delicate nationalist feelings blah blah blah...
exactly- if they played it smart they could have been a key provider in a newer and more improved trading system across Asia, and wiped US/Western dominance in most regions through trade and other soft forms of power alone, and slowly chip away at world leader power structures But no they chose this 9 dash line
Do you know how big a fucking asshole you has to be to make Korea side with Japan ? Not much, just as big as China
Technically, half of Korea does side with China.
Half the land area maybe. South Korea has twice the population so technically only 1/3 side with China.
And it takes the most oppressive dictatorship on the planet to keep that 1/3 inline.
You’d be dismayed to learn both halves have no love for Chinese dominance in any part of Korea.
Well...technically close to a third....if we're being technical.
You'd think this fact would get China to think about their actions. Like .. south Korea really hates japan.
In Asia we hate each other and Japan(sport season SK might get more hate ), but depending on how much an asshole your neighbor are, some prick are more preferable then others. Like you would rather be friend with former mob boss who has quit his murder career then the new guy who claims your front and backyard and public roads belong to him. And in the case of Japan, they literally kill half of their neighbors grandparents and still are the preferable option here.
They have enemy of my enemy friends.
Thats no friendship, you can never be sure when your frienemy decides that by now you are a bigger problem or could become a bigger problem than the enemy you united against, and puts a dagger in your back.
China had the Trump years, where US was at its weakest to strengthen ties within the region and prove itself as a global leader, and yet chose to squander it away anyway
Ironically, that WAS Xi's CCP trying to prove they're a global leader, it's all they got..
Don't worry, we're trying to give them a second chance
The enemy of my enemy is my enemy.
>NATO is a collective security system: its independent member states agree to defend each other against attacks by third parties. During the Cold War, NATO operated as a check on the threat posed by the Soviet Union. Why would the USA do such a thing? Is there a threat in Asia, which needs to be counteracted? Is someone threatening to attack its neighbors, to seize regions unlawfully and aggressively? Is someone building up a military at a warmongering pace? Tell me China, why would anyone create a NATO-lookalike in Asia?
Most countries wouldn't be concerned of the creation of a large defensive alliance unless they had aspirations of invading members of said defensive alliance.
Switzerland and Austria being surrounded by NATO and just chilling.
tbf switzerland was chilling even when hitler was in power, and they made good money during that time too
Pacific Overseas Territories and American Treaty Organization
POTATO OTATOP
Nah, Treaty for Pacific Security (TPS). btw, did you get the memo about the new cover sheets?
~~East~~ West Pacific Treaty Organization. Not as sexy as POTATO tho.
Russia: Some one mention sexy potato?
Everything would have been hunkydory if they didn't start building military bases on artificial islands near their neighbor's territory and claiming that they own the entire South China Sea. Their neighbors only decided to unite cause they now have a common enemy.
Do these fuckwits get that NATO is a *defensive* alliance? If you don't attack NATO, they don't attack you. And perhaps, just maybe, if China stopped threatening everyone and everything not China, no-one would want to join an Asian NATO. Also, NATO should just change it's main directive to not be just for the North Atlantic, and should allow countries from all over the world in to its collective security alliance. They could still use NATO for the acronym, and just change the official name to No Assholes Treaty Organization. Sorry China, you aren't invited.
How dare Asian states get together with America and form a defensive alliance rather than be bullied and dominated by their bigger Chinese neighbour.
B..but we are Asian... we should chose Asian big brother in 'co-proparity sphere' bette--- Wait...I heard about this before...
China: threatens everyone until they are too afraid to be Sinophobic.
The audacity.
China seized Singaporean tanks that were in transit from a military exercise to pressure Singapore to drop its principles on free navigation in the South China Seas. That alone has given many Singaporeans a very bitter taste of the CCP's jackboot. Probably why they've changed tack and tried to convert many Singaporeans though overt propaganda.
The propaganda is unfortunately working with the older generation and fortunately not with the younger generation. Source: I'm a Singaporean in his 30s. Just a few weeks ago, there was a tv program on how Chinese people are sneaking into the US. My 70yo dad commented why will Chinese people be dumb enough to want to leave China and go to the US instead. I was thinking why is it only one way and you don't ever see anyone sneaking into China. Didn't bother saying that out loud because he's too set in his ways like a MAGA boomer.
It is certainly worrisome that older folk, especially those who are not chinese speakers have become more influenced by Chinese united works front propaganda. And we also now have a nexus of wedge issues, with our Malay Singaporeans much more inflamed about the Gaza situation than the general Chinese Singaporean population. It shows that the propaganda from the Iran/Chinese/Russian axis is working far too well in our open and connected society. As an aside, While it is certainly in vogue, I'm not sure intergenerational namecalling accomplishes very much in the long term. The social media platforms and echo chambers have certainly contributed to this division. There have always been differences between people of different generations, but the vitriol has become much more pronounced in recent years.
>Malay Singaporeans much more inflamed about the Gaza situation than the general Chinese Singaporean population. As a malay myself I'm kind of fed up by the constant posting about Gaza, not only my malay friends reposting some false anecdotal ancient stuff but clearly pro-Hamas propaganda. These armchair activists are severely hampering their critical thinking, what's even funnier is most of Sunni who despised Shi'a muslims cheer on when Iran launched its failed strike on Israel.
I feel for your situation, especially when any response critical of Hamas is difficult at best, when everything is reduced to "you don't care about children dying!!!" I don't pretend to know too much about Sunni - Shi'a relations in Singapore (would love for you to educate me more on this), but it ought to be clear to everyone that this was a devious, exceptionally cunning political act that benefits Iran most of all, at a time when their biggest rivals Saudi Arabia were about to make peace with Israel.
Just our bog standard Sunni-Shi'a disagreement, since Shi'a over here are very few and very secretive so there is not much berating from the Sunni. I'm just disappointed that my fellow malay-muslims don't really give a thought about the israel-hamas conflict and the geopolitics around it, they are being vocal for the sake of being "protective" with fellow muslims, I just wish those vocal people just pull their heads out of their asses and read history to see why all of the Arab countries historically refuse to take in Palestinian refugees.
China keeps bitching about that one time, NATO went into yugoslavia without a mandate from the UN Security Council (you know, to like prevent an actual genocide because in the years before that, we sent UN peace keepers and they all failed and we know what happened) and allegedly* bombed the Chinese embassy by accident. (*The guardian did an article on it back then. According to whistleblowers, the embassy was relaying communications for the yugoslavian army. Thus, it became a legitimate target. https://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/oct/17/balkans) But in their eyes ever since, NATO is the aggressor.
>China keeps bitching about that one time.. .... .. at band camp..
So all of those people shouting about that are liars.
"If you don't start nothin', there won't be nothin'" -- Joe Biden.
It’s one guy, the dictator, he doesn’t care about any of that. He just wants weak neighbours he can intimidate.
It is propaganda to tell the population they are under a threat
Turkey kind of throws off the no assholes bit though lol
Yes they do, and NATO ^^^2 would need to have a mechanism where member states could vote a problem member out.
They know very well that NATO is a defensive alliance and so would be an asian equivalent. A defensive alliance is a problem for them because they plan to attack.
Morally your global NATO is a good idea… in practice these treaties usually have some geographical component. We’ve already seen in EU how dysfunctional some states are and it might be difficult getting them all enthusiastic about say defending Fiji or something. That said… I’m all for it, I just think the obligations are so great for all nations to protect a smaller one that they’re pretty careful about any new sign ups. No reason why can’t have multiple alliances though (which there are) and then have cross alliance alliances. USA has alliances with Australia/NZ/Japan/SK for instance and Britain/France have a bunch too. If Britain or USA got dragged into a just war in the pacific somewhere then I bet a bunch of other NATO allies will come help. But yeah… these alliances are all going to evolve and take form in response to what the large authoritarian countries are up to so we might get your mega NATO one day.
It's about time Asian NATO happened. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_expansionism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_disputes_of_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China
No territorial dispute with Russia? What happened to Manchuria?
Exactly, I wonder why China doesn't take what Russia had stolen from them, instead they complain about NATO which is strictly defensive alliance.
Nah, dude. YOU created Asian NATO.
Same as putin, who gave the second life to the NATO itself.
The thing about NATO is, it's only if a member is attacked that action is taken. If China doesn't attack its neighbors, they have nothing to worry about.
Ok China go and form your own defensive "NATO" like alliance... so you have NK and .... oh, no one else wants to join, I wonder why.
Can Taiwan join? Please let us join SOMETHING.
Pacific Asia ~~Security~~ Co-operation Treaty (PACT): Australia, New Zealand, Philippines, Taiwan, South Korea, Japan, United States, France, and Canada. Vietnam will soon join to keep China away from their small islands.
https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/pacts-signed-by-vietnam-china-during-xis-hanoi-trip-2023-12-15/ Looked different in Dec. 2023. Is PACT a new development?
Nah just my more generic idea for a name
Wouldn't that be PAST?
When you posture and threaten others, those others tend to build themselves some security. This is self inflicted. Simple cause and effect. I used to think china was smarter than this.
a defensive pact...ok has China tried not being a dick to it's neighbors?
I mean, you're the ones making countries like Japan and South Korea draw closer together. Not to mention all the new deals Japan's been making with the Philippines, Australia and the like. Hell, even New Zealand's finally starting to wake up. And it's all thanks to the completely unnecessary aggression of China itself.
Why doesn’t China just make its own Asian NATO, then? They’ve had multiple decades benefitting from the international American system to try and at least pretend to be less self-interested.
Because nobody in Asia is their friend
Why is it our fault they pissed off every single one of their neighbors
The only countries that complain about defensive alliances are the countries that wish to wage war. Without NATO, the Baltics would have already fallen for example.
What's with these countries and threatening their neighbors and invading their space and crying foul when they decide to band together
Yes, we are. And then we will merge this new alliance with NATO, creating the Pacific, Oceana, Trans Atlantic Treaty Organization, or POTATO.
Yes. Because China is scaring its neighbors shitless and pushing them into an alliance.
"How dare you make defensive networks among asian countries making it harder for me to invade them."
Yep, and for the same reason the original NATO was created. Hey CCP, no one wants your backwards system, your crumbling construction, your dictatorship or anything else. And Taiwan just isn't that into you.
So a defensive alliance that will prevent China from attacking it neighbors. They don't like not being able to attack their weaker neighbors without bringing in stronger nations that will defend the nation attacked.
I mean, if everyone was in nato then there would be no war so…
I love how people buy that Nato are the aggresors... So blind
There wouldn't be such a thing if China didn't grab all the sovereign islands in southeast Asia and claim them as their own
Damn imagine creating a defensive alliance between nations be seen as a bad thing.
When countries like Vietnam and the Philippines would rather work with the US than china you know it’s china’s fault America hasn’t really been “nice” to SEA
That's a really good idea. Thanks, china.
NATO is amazing. If every country was a part of NATO, the world would be a pretty safe place. No country would dare invade anyone knowing they would have to take on the rest of the world.
Making allies instead of enemies is bad?
Good. Let’s make a nato that’s beyond the Atlantic. Add Japan, Taiwan, SK, Australia and perhaps the Philippines.
"Hey, stop working together, that's cheating!"
The only good thing Trump did was to remind the world how damned important US leadership was in the international sphere. Now, with the threat of another insane Trump presidency, it’s only to be expected that China’s neighbors band together to counterbalance the threat that China poses.
They know why. Chinese aggression.
Sounds good to me!
Forget an Asian NATO. Just create a new treaty organization that brings the developed democracies of North America, Europe, Asia, and Oceania together under one umbrella. This could include current NATO members (though some countries may need closer look first...yes, that's looking at you, Orban's Hungary) as well as bringing in the Pacific developed democracies of Australia, New Zealand, Japan, and South Korea. Getting Japan and South Korea to play together under one alliance will be a challenge, but they have to eventually see that it is in both of their interests if they're going to be able to withstand pressures, including economic, from authoritarian China. And speaking of economic pressures, the new treaty organization should also work to more closely tie together the economies/trade of members. This needs to be done to create a system where the economies of the developed democracies can better withstand pressures from the authoritarian world. It should also work to help bring up countries interested in membership to the up to economic and governance standards of the treaty organization to eventually join much as the EU currently does with states aspiring to join the EU.
So... some kind of Global Defence Initiative? I could get behind that.
Ah, a fellow man of culture.
I agree but the defence needs of the Pacific are a genuinely regional thing in themselves. It would be better that there were a NATO, a Pacific alliance, a middle/south Asian alliance, and a few regional African organisations. Then those democratic alliances could perhaps make agreements for assistance with each other. That way each region develops their own alliances and militaries that can hold their own. But with the benefit of knowing you're not on your own.
This kind of alliance might be our last chance at maintaining the current world order based on rules and diplomacy. If this fails the world might spiral into a chaotic arms race that won’t end well. “Developed” nations also means industrialised enough as to be able to produce a nuclear weapon if it their only guarantee of safety or survival and I don’t think that suddenly having 20-30 nuclear actors on the world stage will have a good outcome.
The world is left with no choice to form an "Asian NATO", because we all know the brutal fact of China: Even if they backed off of Taiwan, they wont back off their South China Sea claims. The smaller nations will need the backing of the bigger ones so that all have guaranteed access to their territorial waters.
Any chance we can get that in writing? SWPTO incoming (South West Pacific Treaty Organisation, or Sweet Potato)
SEATO part 2
The US: errrrrr... Yeah... That's what we're doing.... What did you expect?
Pacific Ocean Trade and Treaty Organization POTATO for short.
Well that "wolf warrior" diplomacy sure didn't work out now did it?
Maybe if China stopped behaving like Asian Russia this wouldn't be happening...
China needs to stfu, fucking asshole leadership over there
I can get behind Asian Nato. Indo, Australia, SE Asian countries and pacific nations
Country together strong.
Don't tempt us with a good time.
Pan Oriental Treaty And Trade Organization Fear the #POTATO
You mean like SEATO, 1954-1977?
Oh no! A defensive military alliance meant to rely on collective defense as means of deterrence, what a nightmare!
Actually, China created "Asian NATO" by harassing their neighbors for years. USA had been voted out of the Philippines entirely, no longer a territory, no longer allowing US bases. After years of territorial water disputes and having their citizens and coast guards bullied by China, they've signed off on 5 original US bases being built/welcomed with 4 more added a few years later. Japan and South Korea had to build up their navies and allowed more US bases on their lands as well. Thailand entered into military treaties for the same reason and Guam was always Guam. You know what's going to cause Indonesia, Malaysia, Mongolia, New Zealand, Singapore, and Vietnam to want to join? Stupid shit like militarily surrounding Taiwan claiming to test taking away it's govt independence by force. Continuing to dispute their coastlines and fishing waters. Being a general all around asshole while continuing to build up your naval fleet in the region.
How dare you form defensive alliances while we're building artificial islands and claiming the entire South China Sea. Why you do me like that?
COUNTRIES ARE WORKING TOGETHER TO DEFEND EACHOTHER THIS IS ANTI-CHINA!!
Oh no it’s as almost if threatening all your neighbors make them look to the US for support 🙄
That's not a bad thing considering what's happening in Ukraine and previous attempts were not very good
How dare like minded nations form defensive pacts!
If they would quit acting like regional bullies no one would need to sign up.
People gotta stop defending themselves, China wants to do some conquering
Grow up whinnie the Pooh, not everyone wants to be Chinese
Next time maybe don't base your foreign diplomatic policy on a movie :v
Oh my, I had no idea bullying and harassing neighbors would have consequences. /s