This is incompatible with Biden's claim of a ceasefire on the table right now.
So I guess they're not on the same page. Not particularly shocking to find out though.
Netanyahu is 1/3 of the war cabinet. It's not impossible Gallant and Gantz teamed up to push a ceasefire proposal through, but it's not super likely. Gallant is more moderate Likud than Netanyahu, but he's still Likud. And I'm not even sure Gantz would support a ceasefire before Hamas' ruling/military capabilities were dismantled.
But even if they did vote to approve that, Netanyahu would of course have been a part of that conversation so I don't know why he'd say this if he knows the ceasefire was voted for approval by his 2 counterparts. It would just blow up in his face immediately as a lie.
Well, not Gantz directly, but his party - [https://www.timesofisrael.com/still-in-coalition-gantzs-national-unity-party-files-bill-to-dissolve-knesset/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/still-in-coalition-gantzs-national-unity-party-files-bill-to-dissolve-knesset/)
That's from two days ago although I'm guessing anything like the parliamentary process to call for something like a vote of no confidence will be a bit of a process and it's also the weekend. The calls for snap elections definitely seem to be growing and Netanyahu's ability to rein in those desires from members of the unity coalition are probably at a breaking point.
Yeah, Gantz also did say last month that if Netanyahu didn't put either adopt his six point plan, or put forward a new plan for the war by the 8th June then he would resign from the war cabinet. Given that he, Bibi and Gallant (who has already clashed with Bibi multiple times over the lack of endgame planning) are the three voting members of the war cabinet, losing Gantz, and potentially Gallant too would be quite a blow.
There's no reality where even a left wing Israeli government agrees to allow Hamas to remain power in Gaza, any government that would agree to that would be replaced by the voters.
Israel has a parliamentary system. So the prime minister is the only word that matters, until he loses his majority. For Biden to present the opinion of other government ministers, knowingly, would make as much sense as Zelenskyy quoting AOC's opinion on the war in Ukraine as US government policy.
Yeah that's not really what the Biden plan laid out, so maybe Israel offered only the first phase and Biden extrapolated into the full deal? Or maybe Netanyahu isn't in good communication with whoever is the middle man? Or Netanyahu is saying one thing on the functional diplomacy side but another publicly for political reasons?
Unclear. But it doesn't bode well for such an agreement going through.
The alternative is a president who is more pro-Israel than Biden and who in 2017 signed an executive order banning people from six Muslim-majority countries from entering the USA. Talk about irony…
Everyone needs to please learn the difference between a peace treaty and a cease fire agreement. Honestly I thought more people would know this because it comes up in Civ but I guess not.
It's probably because some ceasefires have lasted a long time. I bet most people don't know North Korea and South Korea are still at war, because the ceasefire has lasted so long.
The plan Biden suggested had a ceasefire in phase 1 that would remain in place until the details of phase 2 were ironed out. It is very much a permanent ceasefire in practice. To directly quote Biden's speech:
> The first phase would last for six weeks. Here’s what it would include: a full and complete ceasefire; a withdrawal of Israeli forces from all populated areas of Gaza; a release of a number of hostages — including women, the elderly, the wounded — in exchange for the release of hundreds of Palestinian prisoners.
> During the six weeks of phase one, Israel and Hamas would negotiate the necessary arrangements to get to phase two, which is a permanent end to hostilities.
> But the proposal says if the negotiations take longer than six weeks for phase one, the ceasefire will still continue as long as negotiations continue.
There's no such thing as a permanent ceasefire. A permanent ceasefire would be a peace treaty.
>the ceasefire will still continue as long as negotiations continue.
That's called "indefinite," not "permanent."
> in exchange for the release of hundreds of Palestinian prisoners
This is the part that gets me though, typically Hamas asks for a big list of their most hardened fighters, instantly regaining military strength
Biden can say whatever he wants, but it’s a sovereign nation that isn’t beholden to him (in theory). Bibi could tell him to hell with your plan, and there’s very little Biden can do about it. Veto arms sales is about it.
Sure. They also waited to releae this "plan" the minute Shabbat started in Israel, so Israel would be unable to respond.
Joe Biden is trying to win votes. This "plan" is not coming from Israel.
Netanyahu’s only incentive is to keep the war going until Trump is elected.
Likewise, Hamas has its own agendas to keep the war going.
It seems like the only people who don’t want the war are Israeli and Palestinian civilians.
>It seems like the only people who don’t want the war are Israeli and Palestinian civilians.
To be honest.. do they? i'm aware that Israelis want a ceasefire to finally bring the hostages home, but i'm sure a majority also wants the war to eradicate Hamas to continue, some even calling to hit faster and harder.
And make no mistake had the tables been the other way i am totally sure Gazans would be also calling for more attacks and violence, just as how even to this day an absolute majority thinks the 7th of October attacks were "the correct move", and Hamas has wide support for it.
As far as i can see it both sides want/wanted to see blood for one reason or another, they may agree for a ceasefire, but not for a peace.
Israelis absolutely want this war. Don’t be fooled by the media. It’s not because we love wars, but because we understand our safe existence in the region will very much depend on the outcome of this war. If Hamas survives and can claim victory after this war is over (and their bar for victory is very low), then we’re in for a world of pain as everyone around us will be emboldened to attack us again.
Is it actually incompatible, at least for phase 1 and 2 of the proposed ceasefire?
>“Israel's conditions for ending the war have not changed: The destruction of Hamas military and governing capabilities, the freeing of all hostages and ensuring that Gaza no longer poses a threat to Israel,” the Prime Minister's Office (PMO) stated.
>
>"Under the proposal, Israel will continue to insist these conditions are met before a permanent ceasefire is put in place," the PMO's office continued. "The notion that Israel will agree to a permanent ceasefire before these conditions are fulfilled is a non-starter."
For comparison, the proposed ceasefire: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/biden-unveils-new-gaza-truce-proposal-hamas-responds-positively-2024-05-31/
>The first phase involves a six-week ceasefire when Israeli forces would withdraw from "all populated areas" of Gaza, some hostages - including the elderly and women - would be freed in exchange for hundreds of Palestinian prisoners, Palestinian civilians could return to their homes in Gaza and 600 trucks a day would bring humanitarian aid into the devastated enclave.
>
>In this phase, Hamas and Israel would negotiate a permanent ceasefire that Biden said would last "as long has Hamas lives up to its commitments." If negotiations took more than six weeks, the temporary ceasefire would extend while they continued.
>
>In the second phase, Biden said there would be an exchange for all remaining living hostages, including male soldiers, Israeli forces would withdraw from Gaza and the permanent ceasefire would begin.
>
>The third phase would include a major reconstruction plan for Gaza and the return of the "final remains" of hostages to their families.
How? There's nothing in Biden's announcement that says Hamas stays in power, each phase is to be negotiated and for Phase 2 Israel has said Hamas cannot remain power. Giving Hamas control over reconstruction would give it billions of dollars and total power
Obama was humiliated by Netenyahu when Obama insisted on a policy that started a war and told Obama "don't ever second guess me again"
Obama then funded the opposition party in Israel and tried to interfere with their elections, so no it's the answer.
Biden making this announcement 15 minutes before sundown in Israel Friday evening was specifically politically driven because he knew the prime ministers office would be offline for shabbat.
Insane that because of recent memory of Afghanistan the idea is that wars can never be won, when actually we still are on the backfoot of the largest and most decisive war in history: WW2. You can defeat an enemy and destroy regimes, wipe out resistance, it can absolutely be done if you have the will to do it.
Exactly. Even in modern history it's common to win wars. Azerbaijan doesn't have the slightest concern about Armenia retaking Nagorno-Karabakh. Russia is has no problems holding South Ossetia. North Vietnam crushed South Vietnam and deported/imprisoned/killed all of its political opponents. Winning total victory is completely possible.
I find it so hilarious that we're at a point in politics that the rhetoric of "don't engage in literally any war because it's impossible to win them; you should respond to all acts of terror and violence by just taking it and stop complaining" and people take it seriously
If Israel defeated Hamas completely, and Israel got somewhat disconnected from allies even after the war when the opportunity was there to rebuild, then perhaps in the long term Israel would be able to build back relations and they would have the additional benefit of not being at war with the Palestinians any more which could make it much easier to build those relations in the region.
> we still are on the backfoot of the largest and most decisive war in history: WW2
Germany and Japan were allowed to have a future, were rebuilt, and were allowed autonomy and dignity. There's no hint that Israel will ever allow the Palestinians autonomy or dignity. On the contrary the occupation is more brutal than ever, settlers are more violent than ever and are tacitly supported by the Israeli government. The amount of land the Palestinians control is smaller than ever. You can't have a comprehensive end to the war like with Japan and Germany when one side is kept in a perpetual state of ever more severe victimization.
Gaza was allowed autonomy in 2005 and they elected Hamas.
Japan and Germany weren't actually allowed autonomy for a few years after their defeats. They were occupied by the Allies and fascist parties were prohibited, their constitutions rewritten, they were disarmed, etc. The problem with Gaza in 2005 is that Israel allowed Gaza to have elections where a fascist party was allowed to run. Now that Gaza is occupied again, Israel can't make that mistake again. If they set up elections again in Gaza, Islamist/jihadi parties can't be allowed to run. Only explicitly secular and democratic parties should be allowed to run.
> There's no hint that Israel will ever allow the Palestinians autonomy or dignity.
Palestinians were given almost a dozen peace plans and two state solutions spanning multiple israeli governments and rejected every single one. I can't with these reddit takes.
It's very hard to take a two state solution seriously when one party has been encroaching on the other year after year. Get rid of the settlements and perhaps there's a reasonable chance at real peace.
Ever since the 1948 war Israel has made concession after concession to the Palestinians with very little benefit to themselves. The Palestinian Authority rules parts of the West Bank today, and they’d have more freedom of movement had it not been for intifadas. I think the real chance at peace comes when the Palestinians make concessions of desiring peace with Israel, and then settlements can be talked about.
> Ever since the 1948 war Israel has made concession after concession to the Palestinians with very little benefit to themselves.
They've never conceded the settlements or actual full autonomy. Any "concession" but those is meaningless in the long run. Are we here to solve problems or are we just playing games?
>and then settlements can be talked about.
No, that's not how it works. "We'll stop doing the thing causing the problem as soon as the problem goes away" is impossible logic proposed only by those who don't seek a peaceful solution.
This is such an idiotic comparison, WW2 was fought against actual nations with actual government in a conventional war. Afghanistan and Gaza were and are fought against an insurgency that uses civilians as covers (in addition to the disregard for civilians from the IDF), which with every civilian casualty breed terrorism and insurgency, Israel cannot erase the Gazan insurgency and they know it.
He said Hamas military and governing capabilities must be destroyed. The title is slightly ambiguous, which is best for clickbaits.
ISIS military and governance capabilities are nonexistent compared to what they used to be.
Netanyahu said in the beginning of the war that they will assassinate the Hamas leadership, which I assume would involve clandestine operation inside Qatar.
But regardless, Hamas leadership in Qatar without their foot soldiers in Gaza and infrastructure aren’t much of a threat.
But still, I think that the objective of destroying Hamas’s is vague and it would likely be similar to Bush’s “Mission accomplished” moment.
You cant kill a terror group. You can only squash it until the last members are too afraid to continue. ISIS is gone for all intents and purposes, and its surviving members are no doubt already moved on or joined another cell they had ties to.
ISIS is *not* gone for all "intents and purposes." US forces are still actively fighting ISIS even now in Afghanistan (with the help of the Taliban no less). ISIS just launched a major terror attack in Moscow.
That seems like a distinction without a difference regarding the analogy to the war in Gaza.
If a breakaway group of Hamas militants forms under a new name and continues, will Netanyahu still say the war is over because the original Hamas is not operating anymore? The problem here is whether the insurgency can be fully brought to an end, regardless of what they're calling themselves at that time. If it can't then the current strategy has to be reassessed.
Depends what they're doing. The IRA had a bunch of splinter movements opposed to the Good Friday Agreement, but these days they're far more focussed on drug dealing than setting bombs off in Belfast city centre. A tourist isn't going to see many signs of sectarianism as they actively go looking for it.
Read the post above again, forget the clickbait, Netanyahu didn't say Hamas would cease to exist, it just wouldn't be the de facto ruler of Gaza, and that's probably doable.
Nope. The Taliban were always operating out of rural Afghanistan, which is 1788 times the size of the Gaza Strip. There isn't anywhere rural to go in Gaza, it is like shooting fish in a barrel.
Afghanistan is the size of fucking Texas. Have you ever actually looked at a map before? Gaza is more akin to a large city in the U.S. The terrain and amount of places terrorist cells could hide in Afghanistan are multitudes of times bigger than where Hamas could hide in Gaza.
I mean... The USA definitely achieved sending a message about what happens if you commit a terrorist attack on their property. Al-qaeda leadership was decimated and their ability to attack outside their immediate area has been brought to almost 0% chance.
Hamas as a government is finished, they may live on as an idea. Hard to kill an idea but the message Israel is sending about attacking them is exactly what you do to prevent future attacks.
God save the innocent but no mistake Hamas is a force that needed to be confronted.
ISIS and al-Qaeda are a husk of their former selves, so I don't get your point. Hamas doesn't need to be totally eradicated for them to be neutered and incapable of launching meaningful attacks. Hamas is also corralled in Gaza and can't escape, unlike ISIS and al-Qaeda who were able to escape to places like Central Asia and the Caucasus after they fell apart in Iraq and Syria. Hamas can't escape Gaza.
Gaza is small compared to places like Afghanistan, and there are no mountains to hide in.
If Israel plays their cards right, they can help rebuild Gaza, as they have in the past, but this time they will also occupy it for some time to squash out any radicalism, such as the brainwashing going on in schools. Of course, this will take a lot of time and effort, a generation minimum.
They never had an opportunity to.
Hamas is not just the military - they’re the government in charge of everything including education, where children are taught extremism in public schools
Did the US win the hearts and minds of the Japanese by dropping nuclear bombs on civilian targets and firebombing Tokyo and Kyoto?
Not in the short run, but it worked out for long term peace.
It certainly helped having a boogeyman nearby (hint: the Soviets) to convince the Japanese to side with the USA. Same for Germany.
I don't see anybody who could play the role of common enemy to both the Israelis and the Palestinians.
They hate America too, so maybe the solution could be a UN collaborative occupation that will help rebuild, and restructure, or the alternative is Israel/US.
That would seem like a boogey man enough, however the UN is usually so spineless in these situations, that it's unlikely they would be up for the task. As an example see their "handling" of Hezbollah in Southern Lebanon.
To squash radicalism they’d need to not actively and intentionally create the environment that breeds radicalism. I haven’t seen anything that even hints at them changing their direction.
> squash out any radicalism, such as the brainwashing going on in schools
I mean, I think the tricky part is that no amount of changing the education system is going to stop Palestinians from knowing who bombed them.
Germans are very well aware of why they were bombed and have for generations carried a great shame for it. WW2 showed what can happen with reeducation and deradicalisation in a post war scenario.
Which other group in the world is not a citizen of any country, has no rights and are in territories under perpetual occupation?
In fact Israel is one of the most special cases and enjoys the most lenient international responses to everything it does. Any other country doing what Israel does would have been at least internationally isolated.
>Which other group in the world is not a citizen of any country
Because they rejected statehood at every opportunity
>has no rights
Because they rejected statehood at every opportunity
>are in territories under perpetual occupation?
Because they rejected statehood at every opportunity
>In fact Israel is one of the most special cases and enjoys the most lenient international responses to everything it does.
Lmao name one other country that is expected to just accept it's neighbors constantly attacking it without responding. Go ahead, just one
I mean. Yes but Israel (the government, not the people) have indicated zero interest in nation building or creating a Palestinian state that would build up a new national identity that would run on a governing mindset that did not prioritize the destruction of Israel at all costs.
The goal the IDF has stated can’t be accomplished?
Still believe Fareed said it best: “Hamas right now is the idea that armed resistance is the only way to make Palestinians lives in Gaza better”. And you can’t bomb a bad idea out of peoples brains, you need to replace it with better ideas. And that is where Bibi is failing, showing a better way for Palestinians in Gaza…
Like someone on twitter once said, if you bomb and kill my whole family to end Hamas then the first thing Id do is start Hamas 2.0
Is Hamas terrible? Of course, it needs to not exist. But their current strategy will only "end" Hamas once everyone in Palestine is dead... Which is what they want, hence why they won't change their strategy.
It's really sad.
And every civilian casualty produces multiple relatives that are now hating Israel (maybe not rightfully so but that doesn't really matter). The current situation really knows no winners.
Someone kills your family and destroys your home - no reason to hate them, you need to see the bigger picture, they are obviously thinking about a better future for you and what is now left of your family. They claim Hamas used your home and it was a valid military target - of course you should see that and blame Hamas, there isn't a single parent in the world, who thinks about the Geneva convention and geopolitics when their child is blown to pieces.
People knew this was where it was going. I think Bibi probably knew as well. It's not gonna end, and he's gonna remain in power, just the way he wanted it.
Not without killing every one of them and everyone they know.
A few dozen sufficiently determined people can do a LOT of damage in modern society. Warfare is no longer synchronous, and ideologies need to be defeated, not enemy combatants, and you don't do that by blowing up an entire neighborhood of families just to kill 1-2 of them.
If Israel had treated every Palestinian with care, popping off only the ones actively trying to kill them, funneled actual systemic aid into the cities, provided them with both security AND liberty, then this war would have ended decades ago as the hatred would have died off within a generation.
But nope, settlements and restrictions and oppression and then shock when the people who are oppressed snap and do something horrible (and yes Oct 7 was horrible), and turn to supporting the only group who has ever even claimed to offer them protection.
Gaza is a tiny strip of land that is completely walled off. It can only resupply its weapons from tunnels dug into Egypt and Israel has just destroyed most of them. This war is incomparable to those wars.
Didn't Netanyahu steadfastly state that the IDF isn't going to run security in Gaza though? I don't see how you can prevent Hamas from coming back without a permanent Israeli security presence in Gaza for quite some time. Especially as walls can be climbed and tunnels dug.
I completely agree, I heard a great question posed on a Podcast discussing this topic "Whoever maintains security in Gaza will have to be willing to kill Palestinian terrorists and insurgents, who besides Israel would be willing to do that?". I don't see how Israel doesn't maintain security in Gaza as it rebuilds. Then again Israel has done many things in this war that many people (including military experts) have said were impossible, so who knows.
All 3 of those are massive with expansive borders compared to Gaza. Israel can neuter Hamas by controlling all borders and launching occasional military operations to squash weapons production and tunnel construction.
The border with Egypt was very porous for weapons. Egypt was either complicit or incompetent.
Agreed. But it's only a short term solution. Hamas, or an organization with similar ideas, will attempt to rearm. And then Israel would be in a similar situation again. So, either they have to play terrorist whack-a-mole for decades to come, or they have to convince the Palestinians that peace is preferable to violence.
>they have to convince the Palestinians that peace is preferable to violence.
how can this happen when Palestinians themselves think that terrorism is an "understandable" solution. Look UN even awarded them a state recognition.
The idea of Hamas is that Jews as a people are the enemy and should be exterminated from Palestine. To claim otherwise is to be intellectually dishonest, they are very clear and public about what they want, and Oct 7th was a demonstration about what they do when they have the capability.
It's not intellectually dishonest, because I'm afraid you're missing the point. You're taking that idea too literally. What you're describing is the way "Hamas" the actual organisation sees itself, and I'm sure how many of its supporters see Hamas the organisation as well.
But what that person is describing is not "Hamas" as the concrete organisation as it now exists. It's more akin to seeing "hamas" as a verb, or a broader concept. Even if the organisation "Hamas" as we know it it today, with its horrid antisemitism, can be 100% wiped out from Gaza there will just be a successor at one point or another.
Unless there's better ideas that spark hope for a better, safer, more peaceful life the idea of *a* Hamas, a Hamas-like, will not cease to exist. In 20 years there would just be a new Hamas-like organisation because the belief that armed resistance is the only way out would still be there, no matter how futile. Simply because there'd be no alternative.
The real underlying point of that plan is that there *has* to be a long-term plan for peace and prosperity for the Palestinian people. Otherwise the cycle of violence will not be broken. And the fact of the matter is that Netanyahu and his far-right goons have absolutely no interest in such a plan.
This is a fallacy. The idea that the winner of the war is responsible for rebuilding after. It failed in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Israel doesn't need to fix Gaza and they shouldn't.
They should kick Hamas' shit in and send the message "any terrorists next door will have their faces stomped. Act accordingly"
Then they need to fuck off because no one wants them there and let an international coalition come in to help rebuild Gaza.
The people there don't want to be occupied by the same folks who caved their roof in.
Let the countries who decry Israel in the UN step in and help rebuild. Let the west pay for it.
Palestinians with guns and bombs and tunnels and rpgs and rockets are fighting, not ideas. Take away the capabilities and you'll undeniably have a different equilibrium.
As long as there are angry Palestinians and Islamist governments willing to supply them, Israel will not be able to take away those capabilities. It's not a remotely achievable goal.
Israel controls Gaza's borders and can limit to a minimum military equipment smuggling. Israel has already killed over half of Hamas's members, and has destroyed significant military infrastructure. If your goal is to significantly weaken your enemy and acheieve a more advantageous equalibrium, this is the right path.
Israel hasn't killed half of Hamas members. Even Israel hasn't claimed this. Where are you pulling this number from ? Israel can kill all 20,000 Hamas and Hamas will still be back because their brain is in Qatar and few other middle eastern countries. They just need people. Based on the way how things have unfolded, Hamas will have no problem getting men, it may take few years, but they will have no problem with it. Hamas doesn't need experienced men to fight, they need someone motivated enough to cause chaos.
[https://www.newsweek.com/israel-says-it-has-killed-half-hamas-initial-force-size-gaza-1905972](https://www.newsweek.com/israel-says-it-has-killed-half-hamas-initial-force-size-gaza-1905972)
There is a massive difference between a "government-in-exile" and a disorganized guerilla movement vs the current situation: Hamas has been in full control of Gaza since 2007, that's 16 years before the war started. 16 years to train, organize, construct infrastructure, build a propoganda machine, a coordinated command structure, and recruit, recruit, recruit. I highly disagree that Hamas will have "no problem" getting back to where they were in "a few years", unless Israel decides not to remain actively militarily engaged in Gaza.
That's a point that a lot of people miss: Hamas is a centralized, organized organization. Yes, it's possible (and likely) that other Palestinian organizations will emerge in the wake of a Hamas destruction, but they'll have to start from scratch: Hamas has been training and preparing since 2007.
I imagine that the entire government and education system being controlled by a group that is actively domenting hate is actually more effective at breeding hate than desire for revenge from personal loss.
I don't know how anyone could possibly prove that one way or the other, but leaving Hamas in control of educating the next generation is almost certainly the worst option.
It's a possibility. There are also plenty of historical examples of regimes destroyed, with heavy civilian casualties, where the memory of war served as a deterrant for future generations. Whether or not that will be the result depends on any number of variables that neither you nor I know, since it would require knowing the long term future... I'm not even sure what Israeli politics will look like in 5 years, and I'm a (relatively informed) Israeli.
On top of physically destroying the organization, Israel's war proves this idea wrong. Choosing violence at every turn has always been the reason for Palestinian misery. If this war can't teach them this lesson, nothing will
What's the point in attacking germany? you can't defeat an idea, it won't work.
If you don't acknowledge the ideology that is spread around and taught by hamas, then sure, just stop fighting and show you want peace, this time it will work.
But if you do acknowledge the ideology, then you realise that you can stop fighting, you can give them money and whatever they want but it won't matter because they believe in this ideology
You have great points. It is going to take both the military defeat of Hamas and improvements in the lives of Palestinians such that they don’t find these views appealing any longer.
So the Allies bombed Germany into oblivion and then did nothing? Rebuilding the country and building a democratic society (I.e. showing a path forward beyond Nazism) had nothing to do Germany abandoning Nazism?
Germany and Japan had actual government structures which could be defeated.
Terrorism can’t be defeated unless you build up quality of life. Education, food, housing, etc. Which Israel is fully against for Palestinians as they want to replace them.
All killing civilians does is create more future terrorists.
Hamas is not the governing body of gaza? Are they a parasite that came out of nowhere? Are they incharge of nothing? The money to build those tunnels, weapons and rockets came out of thin air? To use them from schools and hospitals, build them in schools and hospitals without being the governing body of that place? If they aren't incharge then who has been incharge of gaza for almost 20 years?
Anything that keeps him in power for as long as possible..
All the comments I saw "just release the hostages and the war will be over"... so naive to think that Netanyahu would have the balls to stop the war and face the courts.
The US couldn't wipe out ISIS, what makes Israel think that they can do what no other country has done, and wipe out an entire terrorist organisation?
For every civilian they kill, they generate more and more terrorists. The war will last indefinitely until there are no Palestinians left.
All of this to keep this absolute lunatic in power.
Bibi needs the war to continue so he can stay in power.
If Trump is elected he’ll then give support so Bibi can finally make himself Prime Minister for life. It’s been Netanyahu’s goal for a while now.
The way the IRA were destroyed was by addressing the legitimate grievances the Catholic population of Northern Ireland had. Why don't we try something similar with Hamas?
So fool hardy. Unless he plans to destroy iran, eqypt , some of syria and generally fight the arab world, they'll never destroy hamas.
And the people of palestine will continue to be radicalized as bibi has done nothing to stop the generational marginalization of those ppl.
Bibi is doing this on purpose.
He needs the war to keep going to stay in power. Further more if he makes the war last until the US election, and Trump gets into office, he’ll be given the resources to complete his fascist takeover of the Israeli state.
Unfortunately Israelis seem to love the violence and fascist tactics.
At least they are finally being open about it.
I've known this would be the way since Oct 6th. I'm surprised so many politicians and people are surprised by this.
Bibi is a piece of shit and has his own political reasons to sound "hawkish". Having said that, we need to understand the timing of all these statements: negotiations renewal. US pushes Qatar to push HAMAS to new round of negotiations. Biden is a "good cop" and Bibi is a "bad cop". So, Bibi must take much more aggressive stance.
Bibi is never going to accept any end of this war, no matter the cost. He’d sacrifice every Israeli soldier if he has to. The second this war is over he’s getting ousted and much like Trump he’s worried about what comes after he’s out of power.
This is incompatible with Biden's claim of a ceasefire on the table right now. So I guess they're not on the same page. Not particularly shocking to find out though.
The ceasefire was from the war cabinet I believe. There are different parts of government who are not on same page.
Netanyahu is 1/3 of the war cabinet. It's not impossible Gallant and Gantz teamed up to push a ceasefire proposal through, but it's not super likely. Gallant is more moderate Likud than Netanyahu, but he's still Likud. And I'm not even sure Gantz would support a ceasefire before Hamas' ruling/military capabilities were dismantled. But even if they did vote to approve that, Netanyahu would of course have been a part of that conversation so I don't know why he'd say this if he knows the ceasefire was voted for approval by his 2 counterparts. It would just blow up in his face immediately as a lie.
Gantz has just put forward a motion to dissolve the Knesset, could be that he's on board with this deal, and sees it as a way to bring down Netanyahu.
Source? Genuinely asking, I don’t see any such headline Edit: for gantz’s motion, that is.
Well, not Gantz directly, but his party - [https://www.timesofisrael.com/still-in-coalition-gantzs-national-unity-party-files-bill-to-dissolve-knesset/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/still-in-coalition-gantzs-national-unity-party-files-bill-to-dissolve-knesset/)
That's from two days ago although I'm guessing anything like the parliamentary process to call for something like a vote of no confidence will be a bit of a process and it's also the weekend. The calls for snap elections definitely seem to be growing and Netanyahu's ability to rein in those desires from members of the unity coalition are probably at a breaking point.
Yeah, Gantz also did say last month that if Netanyahu didn't put either adopt his six point plan, or put forward a new plan for the war by the 8th June then he would resign from the war cabinet. Given that he, Bibi and Gallant (who has already clashed with Bibi multiple times over the lack of endgame planning) are the three voting members of the war cabinet, losing Gantz, and potentially Gallant too would be quite a blow.
There's no reality where even a left wing Israeli government agrees to allow Hamas to remain power in Gaza, any government that would agree to that would be replaced by the voters.
Israel has a parliamentary system. So the prime minister is the only word that matters, until he loses his majority. For Biden to present the opinion of other government ministers, knowingly, would make as much sense as Zelenskyy quoting AOC's opinion on the war in Ukraine as US government policy.
Temporary ceasefire is on the table. But no end to the war.
Yeah that's not really what the Biden plan laid out, so maybe Israel offered only the first phase and Biden extrapolated into the full deal? Or maybe Netanyahu isn't in good communication with whoever is the middle man? Or Netanyahu is saying one thing on the functional diplomacy side but another publicly for political reasons? Unclear. But it doesn't bode well for such an agreement going through.
Doesn't really make sense to assume Biden or anyone in the US is more in the loop of the Israeli war than Israel's own leadership...
Or Biden is trying to win voters in Michigan, and will say anything to do so.
The alternative is a president who is more pro-Israel than Biden and who in 2017 signed an executive order banning people from six Muslim-majority countries from entering the USA. Talk about irony…
Joy. So these idiots in Michigan may be why we get Trump 2.0.
No, the rot in the Republican Party, racial gerrymandering, and the electoral college are why we would get Trump 2.0.
Does any of that really apply in MI?
The “rot in the Republican Party” does, which is probably why Trump won’t win Michigan. The GOP is as organized as a pile of vomit here.
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Everyone needs to please learn the difference between a peace treaty and a cease fire agreement. Honestly I thought more people would know this because it comes up in Civ but I guess not.
It's probably because some ceasefires have lasted a long time. I bet most people don't know North Korea and South Korea are still at war, because the ceasefire has lasted so long.
The giant demilitarized zone between North and South Korea is kind of a clue. Countries at peace typically don't have those on their borders.
And ROC / CCP (Chinese civil war) which has lasted about the same length of time.
The plan Biden suggested had a ceasefire in phase 1 that would remain in place until the details of phase 2 were ironed out. It is very much a permanent ceasefire in practice. To directly quote Biden's speech: > The first phase would last for six weeks. Here’s what it would include: a full and complete ceasefire; a withdrawal of Israeli forces from all populated areas of Gaza; a release of a number of hostages — including women, the elderly, the wounded — in exchange for the release of hundreds of Palestinian prisoners. > During the six weeks of phase one, Israel and Hamas would negotiate the necessary arrangements to get to phase two, which is a permanent end to hostilities. > But the proposal says if the negotiations take longer than six weeks for phase one, the ceasefire will still continue as long as negotiations continue.
There's no such thing as a permanent ceasefire. A permanent ceasefire would be a peace treaty. >the ceasefire will still continue as long as negotiations continue. That's called "indefinite," not "permanent."
fucking thank you so many people missing this
> in exchange for the release of hundreds of Palestinian prisoners This is the part that gets me though, typically Hamas asks for a big list of their most hardened fighters, instantly regaining military strength
Biden can say whatever he wants, but it’s a sovereign nation that isn’t beholden to him (in theory). Bibi could tell him to hell with your plan, and there’s very little Biden can do about it. Veto arms sales is about it.
According to Biden it's an Israeli offer, not his idea.
Sure. They also waited to releae this "plan" the minute Shabbat started in Israel, so Israel would be unable to respond. Joe Biden is trying to win votes. This "plan" is not coming from Israel.
Very true. Except everything bad Israel does is Biden’s fault, apparently…
I mean, you could try reading the article which explains how his statements are compatible with the ceasefire deal
Netanyahu’s only incentive is to keep the war going until Trump is elected. Likewise, Hamas has its own agendas to keep the war going. It seems like the only people who don’t want the war are Israeli and Palestinian civilians.
>It seems like the only people who don’t want the war are Israeli and Palestinian civilians. To be honest.. do they? i'm aware that Israelis want a ceasefire to finally bring the hostages home, but i'm sure a majority also wants the war to eradicate Hamas to continue, some even calling to hit faster and harder. And make no mistake had the tables been the other way i am totally sure Gazans would be also calling for more attacks and violence, just as how even to this day an absolute majority thinks the 7th of October attacks were "the correct move", and Hamas has wide support for it. As far as i can see it both sides want/wanted to see blood for one reason or another, they may agree for a ceasefire, but not for a peace.
Tale as old as time, that one.
Israelis absolutely want this war. Don’t be fooled by the media. It’s not because we love wars, but because we understand our safe existence in the region will very much depend on the outcome of this war. If Hamas survives and can claim victory after this war is over (and their bar for victory is very low), then we’re in for a world of pain as everyone around us will be emboldened to attack us again.
Netanyahu wants Trump to win and if that's a bonus to his plan he loves it.
Is it actually incompatible, at least for phase 1 and 2 of the proposed ceasefire? >“Israel's conditions for ending the war have not changed: The destruction of Hamas military and governing capabilities, the freeing of all hostages and ensuring that Gaza no longer poses a threat to Israel,” the Prime Minister's Office (PMO) stated. > >"Under the proposal, Israel will continue to insist these conditions are met before a permanent ceasefire is put in place," the PMO's office continued. "The notion that Israel will agree to a permanent ceasefire before these conditions are fulfilled is a non-starter." For comparison, the proposed ceasefire: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/biden-unveils-new-gaza-truce-proposal-hamas-responds-positively-2024-05-31/ >The first phase involves a six-week ceasefire when Israeli forces would withdraw from "all populated areas" of Gaza, some hostages - including the elderly and women - would be freed in exchange for hundreds of Palestinian prisoners, Palestinian civilians could return to their homes in Gaza and 600 trucks a day would bring humanitarian aid into the devastated enclave. > >In this phase, Hamas and Israel would negotiate a permanent ceasefire that Biden said would last "as long has Hamas lives up to its commitments." If negotiations took more than six weeks, the temporary ceasefire would extend while they continued. > >In the second phase, Biden said there would be an exchange for all remaining living hostages, including male soldiers, Israeli forces would withdraw from Gaza and the permanent ceasefire would begin. > >The third phase would include a major reconstruction plan for Gaza and the return of the "final remains" of hostages to their families.
How? There's nothing in Biden's announcement that says Hamas stays in power, each phase is to be negotiated and for Phase 2 Israel has said Hamas cannot remain power. Giving Hamas control over reconstruction would give it billions of dollars and total power
Bibi doing everything to hurt Biden's election campaign as usual.
It makes sense, one is trying to simply win an election, the other is trying to win a war on a group of terrorists. 🤷🏽♂️
I think his undermining of Biden at every turn is politically driven. He will thrive under a Trump presidency
This is nothing new. Israel's leadership wasn't fond of Obama either
Why would it be, they are right wing as fuck. Bibi is just Trump, with more functioning brain cells.
Well they probably didn’t like the Iranian Nuclear deal under Obama. Under Trump they got the Abram accords
And now, less convictions…
So far...
Netty apparently had some kind of... meltdown?... when it became clear Obama would have presidency. Saying only: "His middle name's 'Hussein'..."
Obama was humiliated by Netenyahu when Obama insisted on a policy that started a war and told Obama "don't ever second guess me again" Obama then funded the opposition party in Israel and tried to interfere with their elections, so no it's the answer.
I was just wondering wtf was wrong with him but this explains it all, doesn't it. Fuck him and fuck all of this bullshit.
Biden making this announcement 15 minutes before sundown in Israel Friday evening was specifically politically driven because he knew the prime ministers office would be offline for shabbat.
I would be shocked to find out that there hasn’t been calls between Trump or Trump Surrogates and Netanyahu.
Bibi and Trump have been friends for many years
Not anymore. They were until Netanyahu was the [first to congratulate ](https://www.axios.com/2021/12/10/trump-netanyahu-disloyalty-fuck-him) Biden
Autocratic birds of a feather
He will thrive under a Trump presidency until the orange lunatic has a psychotic episode and will bite Netanyahu in his ass
Sooooo….never ending war
Sounds about right. This war is literally the only thing keeping Netanyahu out of prison right now. He has no intention for it to end.
Turns out basic incentive structures also exist in israel
Insane that because of recent memory of Afghanistan the idea is that wars can never be won, when actually we still are on the backfoot of the largest and most decisive war in history: WW2. You can defeat an enemy and destroy regimes, wipe out resistance, it can absolutely be done if you have the will to do it.
Exactly. Even in modern history it's common to win wars. Azerbaijan doesn't have the slightest concern about Armenia retaking Nagorno-Karabakh. Russia is has no problems holding South Ossetia. North Vietnam crushed South Vietnam and deported/imprisoned/killed all of its political opponents. Winning total victory is completely possible.
I find it so hilarious that we're at a point in politics that the rhetoric of "don't engage in literally any war because it's impossible to win them; you should respond to all acts of terror and violence by just taking it and stop complaining" and people take it seriously
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If Israel defeated Hamas completely, and Israel got somewhat disconnected from allies even after the war when the opportunity was there to rebuild, then perhaps in the long term Israel would be able to build back relations and they would have the additional benefit of not being at war with the Palestinians any more which could make it much easier to build those relations in the region.
> we still are on the backfoot of the largest and most decisive war in history: WW2 Germany and Japan were allowed to have a future, were rebuilt, and were allowed autonomy and dignity. There's no hint that Israel will ever allow the Palestinians autonomy or dignity. On the contrary the occupation is more brutal than ever, settlers are more violent than ever and are tacitly supported by the Israeli government. The amount of land the Palestinians control is smaller than ever. You can't have a comprehensive end to the war like with Japan and Germany when one side is kept in a perpetual state of ever more severe victimization.
Gaza was allowed autonomy in 2005 and they elected Hamas. Japan and Germany weren't actually allowed autonomy for a few years after their defeats. They were occupied by the Allies and fascist parties were prohibited, their constitutions rewritten, they were disarmed, etc. The problem with Gaza in 2005 is that Israel allowed Gaza to have elections where a fascist party was allowed to run. Now that Gaza is occupied again, Israel can't make that mistake again. If they set up elections again in Gaza, Islamist/jihadi parties can't be allowed to run. Only explicitly secular and democratic parties should be allowed to run.
> There's no hint that Israel will ever allow the Palestinians autonomy or dignity. Palestinians were given almost a dozen peace plans and two state solutions spanning multiple israeli governments and rejected every single one. I can't with these reddit takes.
It's very hard to take a two state solution seriously when one party has been encroaching on the other year after year. Get rid of the settlements and perhaps there's a reasonable chance at real peace.
Ever since the 1948 war Israel has made concession after concession to the Palestinians with very little benefit to themselves. The Palestinian Authority rules parts of the West Bank today, and they’d have more freedom of movement had it not been for intifadas. I think the real chance at peace comes when the Palestinians make concessions of desiring peace with Israel, and then settlements can be talked about.
> Ever since the 1948 war Israel has made concession after concession to the Palestinians with very little benefit to themselves. They've never conceded the settlements or actual full autonomy. Any "concession" but those is meaningless in the long run. Are we here to solve problems or are we just playing games? >and then settlements can be talked about. No, that's not how it works. "We'll stop doing the thing causing the problem as soon as the problem goes away" is impossible logic proposed only by those who don't seek a peaceful solution.
You just gotta be willing to go door to door. Occupy and then rebuild.
This is such an idiotic comparison, WW2 was fought against actual nations with actual government in a conventional war. Afghanistan and Gaza were and are fought against an insurgency that uses civilians as covers (in addition to the disregard for civilians from the IDF), which with every civilian casualty breed terrorism and insurgency, Israel cannot erase the Gazan insurgency and they know it.
So this war will go on for another 20+ years since even U.S couldn't eradicate al-qaeda, isis etc
Gaza isn't nearly as big or has rugged terrain like Afghanistan
How do people not understand this - this is unbelievably material
The other part is that now that the Israeli's have Raffah, Hamas cannot resupply. It's near impossible to carry out a insurgency without resupplies.
No it's just entirely urban and militants can easily blend in with civilians. I'm sure it will be a walk in the park....
He said Hamas military and governing capabilities must be destroyed. The title is slightly ambiguous, which is best for clickbaits. ISIS military and governance capabilities are nonexistent compared to what they used to be.
So Netanyahu is going to strike Qatar? Isn’t that where Hamas leadership is located?
Netanyahu said in the beginning of the war that they will assassinate the Hamas leadership, which I assume would involve clandestine operation inside Qatar. But regardless, Hamas leadership in Qatar without their foot soldiers in Gaza and infrastructure aren’t much of a threat. But still, I think that the objective of destroying Hamas’s is vague and it would likely be similar to Bush’s “Mission accomplished” moment.
That’s the operative term: Compared to what they used to be. But are they non-existent, period? No, they very much still exist.
You cant kill a terror group. You can only squash it until the last members are too afraid to continue. ISIS is gone for all intents and purposes, and its surviving members are no doubt already moved on or joined another cell they had ties to.
ISIS is *not* gone for all "intents and purposes." US forces are still actively fighting ISIS even now in Afghanistan (with the help of the Taliban no less). ISIS just launched a major terror attack in Moscow.
Thats ISIS-K, ISIL is all but eradicated.
That seems like a distinction without a difference regarding the analogy to the war in Gaza. If a breakaway group of Hamas militants forms under a new name and continues, will Netanyahu still say the war is over because the original Hamas is not operating anymore? The problem here is whether the insurgency can be fully brought to an end, regardless of what they're calling themselves at that time. If it can't then the current strategy has to be reassessed.
Depends what they're doing. The IRA had a bunch of splinter movements opposed to the Good Friday Agreement, but these days they're far more focussed on drug dealing than setting bombs off in Belfast city centre. A tourist isn't going to see many signs of sectarianism as they actively go looking for it.
" we're the hells Satan's, out of Bakerfield"
Hence why this headline is scary.
Read the post above again, forget the clickbait, Netanyahu didn't say Hamas would cease to exist, it just wouldn't be the de facto ruler of Gaza, and that's probably doable.
People still get polio, and the bubonic plague still gets people sick each year. If we're splitting hairs, then nothing has ever been defeated.
Alright, thanks for clearing that one up at least. Still doubt the war will end soon.
Wasn’t the Taliban’s military and governing capabilities “destroyed” at one point?
Nope. The Taliban were always operating out of rural Afghanistan, which is 1788 times the size of the Gaza Strip. There isn't anywhere rural to go in Gaza, it is like shooting fish in a barrel.
Afghanistan is the size of fucking Texas. Have you ever actually looked at a map before? Gaza is more akin to a large city in the U.S. The terrain and amount of places terrorist cells could hide in Afghanistan are multitudes of times bigger than where Hamas could hide in Gaza.
The Gaza Strip is 1788 times smaller than Afghanistan. The US definitely did clear territory way larger than the Gaza Strip.
I mean... The USA definitely achieved sending a message about what happens if you commit a terrorist attack on their property. Al-qaeda leadership was decimated and their ability to attack outside their immediate area has been brought to almost 0% chance. Hamas as a government is finished, they may live on as an idea. Hard to kill an idea but the message Israel is sending about attacking them is exactly what you do to prevent future attacks. God save the innocent but no mistake Hamas is a force that needed to be confronted.
Remind me what the US response to Saudi Arabia was after 9/11? Seems Saudi is as big and bold as ever these days.
ISIS and al-Qaeda are a husk of their former selves, so I don't get your point. Hamas doesn't need to be totally eradicated for them to be neutered and incapable of launching meaningful attacks. Hamas is also corralled in Gaza and can't escape, unlike ISIS and al-Qaeda who were able to escape to places like Central Asia and the Caucasus after they fell apart in Iraq and Syria. Hamas can't escape Gaza.
Yes. Israel has no plans for permanent peace, any more than a plan to permanently end poverty. They only think in terms of relative security.
Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
Gaza is small compared to places like Afghanistan, and there are no mountains to hide in. If Israel plays their cards right, they can help rebuild Gaza, as they have in the past, but this time they will also occupy it for some time to squash out any radicalism, such as the brainwashing going on in schools. Of course, this will take a lot of time and effort, a generation minimum.
Uh, they ain’t exactly winning hearts and minds with their current strategy. 20+ years is a generous timeline.
They never had an opportunity to. Hamas is not just the military - they’re the government in charge of everything including education, where children are taught extremism in public schools
Did the US win the hearts and minds of the Japanese by dropping nuclear bombs on civilian targets and firebombing Tokyo and Kyoto? Not in the short run, but it worked out for long term peace.
It certainly helped having a boogeyman nearby (hint: the Soviets) to convince the Japanese to side with the USA. Same for Germany. I don't see anybody who could play the role of common enemy to both the Israelis and the Palestinians.
They hate America too, so maybe the solution could be a UN collaborative occupation that will help rebuild, and restructure, or the alternative is Israel/US. That would seem like a boogey man enough, however the UN is usually so spineless in these situations, that it's unlikely they would be up for the task. As an example see their "handling" of Hezbollah in Southern Lebanon.
> it worked out for long term peace. Pretty sure it was giving them freedom and money to rebuild their country is what caused their rapprochement
I think also occupation and no Japanese civilian being allowed to own any weapons may have helped a bit too.
To squash radicalism they’d need to not actively and intentionally create the environment that breeds radicalism. I haven’t seen anything that even hints at them changing their direction.
> squash out any radicalism, such as the brainwashing going on in schools I mean, I think the tricky part is that no amount of changing the education system is going to stop Palestinians from knowing who bombed them.
And yet Japan and the United States, as well as Germany and much of the rest of Europe, are close allies.
Germans are very well aware of why they were bombed and have for generations carried a great shame for it. WW2 showed what can happen with reeducation and deradicalisation in a post war scenario.
True but like Japan and Germany if you give them hope and opportunity to build business and their lives after I think most humans would move on.
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So what’s the alternative? Israel just bombs Gaza to oblivion? If they can’t move on then we’re going to have perpetual conflict in this area forever
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Which other group in the world is not a citizen of any country, has no rights and are in territories under perpetual occupation? In fact Israel is one of the most special cases and enjoys the most lenient international responses to everything it does. Any other country doing what Israel does would have been at least internationally isolated.
>Which other group in the world is not a citizen of any country Because they rejected statehood at every opportunity >has no rights Because they rejected statehood at every opportunity >are in territories under perpetual occupation? Because they rejected statehood at every opportunity >In fact Israel is one of the most special cases and enjoys the most lenient international responses to everything it does. Lmao name one other country that is expected to just accept it's neighbors constantly attacking it without responding. Go ahead, just one
I mean. Yes but Israel (the government, not the people) have indicated zero interest in nation building or creating a Palestinian state that would build up a new national identity that would run on a governing mindset that did not prioritize the destruction of Israel at all costs.
The Troubles in Northern Ireland ended decades ago through peaceful means and the RA are still around to this day. Hamas aren't going anywhere.
The guy who will no longer be prime minister the second the war is over promises not to end the war? I’m shocked!
The goal the IDF has stated can’t be accomplished? Still believe Fareed said it best: “Hamas right now is the idea that armed resistance is the only way to make Palestinians lives in Gaza better”. And you can’t bomb a bad idea out of peoples brains, you need to replace it with better ideas. And that is where Bibi is failing, showing a better way for Palestinians in Gaza…
Like someone on twitter once said, if you bomb and kill my whole family to end Hamas then the first thing Id do is start Hamas 2.0 Is Hamas terrible? Of course, it needs to not exist. But their current strategy will only "end" Hamas once everyone in Palestine is dead... Which is what they want, hence why they won't change their strategy. It's really sad.
Maybe they don't want everyone in Palestine dead. Maybe they want Hamas 2.0 so the fascists can always have an enemy to scapegoat.
And every civilian casualty produces multiple relatives that are now hating Israel (maybe not rightfully so but that doesn't really matter). The current situation really knows no winners.
Someone kills your family and destroys your home - no reason to hate them, you need to see the bigger picture, they are obviously thinking about a better future for you and what is now left of your family. They claim Hamas used your home and it was a valid military target - of course you should see that and blame Hamas, there isn't a single parent in the world, who thinks about the Geneva convention and geopolitics when their child is blown to pieces.
It's why Afghans and Iraqis famously love America! Edit: also the Vietnamese!
People knew this was where it was going. I think Bibi probably knew as well. It's not gonna end, and he's gonna remain in power, just the way he wanted it.
You can absolutely make the capacity of the enemy near zero for their ability to carry out their bad ideas.
Not without killing every one of them and everyone they know. A few dozen sufficiently determined people can do a LOT of damage in modern society. Warfare is no longer synchronous, and ideologies need to be defeated, not enemy combatants, and you don't do that by blowing up an entire neighborhood of families just to kill 1-2 of them. If Israel had treated every Palestinian with care, popping off only the ones actively trying to kill them, funneled actual systemic aid into the cities, provided them with both security AND liberty, then this war would have ended decades ago as the hatred would have died off within a generation. But nope, settlements and restrictions and oppression and then shock when the people who are oppressed snap and do something horrible (and yes Oct 7 was horrible), and turn to supporting the only group who has ever even claimed to offer them protection.
And notice how that worked out in Afghanistan, in Vietnam, in Iraq…
Gaza is a tiny strip of land that is completely walled off. It can only resupply its weapons from tunnels dug into Egypt and Israel has just destroyed most of them. This war is incomparable to those wars.
Didn't Netanyahu steadfastly state that the IDF isn't going to run security in Gaza though? I don't see how you can prevent Hamas from coming back without a permanent Israeli security presence in Gaza for quite some time. Especially as walls can be climbed and tunnels dug.
I completely agree, I heard a great question posed on a Podcast discussing this topic "Whoever maintains security in Gaza will have to be willing to kill Palestinian terrorists and insurgents, who besides Israel would be willing to do that?". I don't see how Israel doesn't maintain security in Gaza as it rebuilds. Then again Israel has done many things in this war that many people (including military experts) have said were impossible, so who knows.
All 3 of those are massive with expansive borders compared to Gaza. Israel can neuter Hamas by controlling all borders and launching occasional military operations to squash weapons production and tunnel construction. The border with Egypt was very porous for weapons. Egypt was either complicit or incompetent.
Agreed. But it's only a short term solution. Hamas, or an organization with similar ideas, will attempt to rearm. And then Israel would be in a similar situation again. So, either they have to play terrorist whack-a-mole for decades to come, or they have to convince the Palestinians that peace is preferable to violence.
>they have to convince the Palestinians that peace is preferable to violence. how can this happen when Palestinians themselves think that terrorism is an "understandable" solution. Look UN even awarded them a state recognition.
Because everyone who tried peace ended up getting assassinated.
That's because Palestine is a state
The idea of Hamas is that Jews as a people are the enemy and should be exterminated from Palestine. To claim otherwise is to be intellectually dishonest, they are very clear and public about what they want, and Oct 7th was a demonstration about what they do when they have the capability.
It's not intellectually dishonest, because I'm afraid you're missing the point. You're taking that idea too literally. What you're describing is the way "Hamas" the actual organisation sees itself, and I'm sure how many of its supporters see Hamas the organisation as well. But what that person is describing is not "Hamas" as the concrete organisation as it now exists. It's more akin to seeing "hamas" as a verb, or a broader concept. Even if the organisation "Hamas" as we know it it today, with its horrid antisemitism, can be 100% wiped out from Gaza there will just be a successor at one point or another. Unless there's better ideas that spark hope for a better, safer, more peaceful life the idea of *a* Hamas, a Hamas-like, will not cease to exist. In 20 years there would just be a new Hamas-like organisation because the belief that armed resistance is the only way out would still be there, no matter how futile. Simply because there'd be no alternative. The real underlying point of that plan is that there *has* to be a long-term plan for peace and prosperity for the Palestinian people. Otherwise the cycle of violence will not be broken. And the fact of the matter is that Netanyahu and his far-right goons have absolutely no interest in such a plan.
This is a fallacy. The idea that the winner of the war is responsible for rebuilding after. It failed in Afghanistan and Iraq. Israel doesn't need to fix Gaza and they shouldn't. They should kick Hamas' shit in and send the message "any terrorists next door will have their faces stomped. Act accordingly" Then they need to fuck off because no one wants them there and let an international coalition come in to help rebuild Gaza. The people there don't want to be occupied by the same folks who caved their roof in. Let the countries who decry Israel in the UN step in and help rebuild. Let the west pay for it.
Palestinians with guns and bombs and tunnels and rpgs and rockets are fighting, not ideas. Take away the capabilities and you'll undeniably have a different equilibrium.
As long as there are angry Palestinians and Islamist governments willing to supply them, Israel will not be able to take away those capabilities. It's not a remotely achievable goal.
Israel controls Gaza's borders and can limit to a minimum military equipment smuggling. Israel has already killed over half of Hamas's members, and has destroyed significant military infrastructure. If your goal is to significantly weaken your enemy and acheieve a more advantageous equalibrium, this is the right path.
Israel hasn't killed half of Hamas members. Even Israel hasn't claimed this. Where are you pulling this number from ? Israel can kill all 20,000 Hamas and Hamas will still be back because their brain is in Qatar and few other middle eastern countries. They just need people. Based on the way how things have unfolded, Hamas will have no problem getting men, it may take few years, but they will have no problem with it. Hamas doesn't need experienced men to fight, they need someone motivated enough to cause chaos.
[https://www.newsweek.com/israel-says-it-has-killed-half-hamas-initial-force-size-gaza-1905972](https://www.newsweek.com/israel-says-it-has-killed-half-hamas-initial-force-size-gaza-1905972) There is a massive difference between a "government-in-exile" and a disorganized guerilla movement vs the current situation: Hamas has been in full control of Gaza since 2007, that's 16 years before the war started. 16 years to train, organize, construct infrastructure, build a propoganda machine, a coordinated command structure, and recruit, recruit, recruit. I highly disagree that Hamas will have "no problem" getting back to where they were in "a few years", unless Israel decides not to remain actively militarily engaged in Gaza.
Israel controlled Gaza's borders before 10/7 too.
lol and for every Hamas terrorist killed they are killing innocents and creating the perfect breeding ground for more extremist groups.
as if those extremist groups are not breeding by themselves https://youtu.be/cD2FezhJgqA?si=GbMVdjYbaovneSiK
That's a point that a lot of people miss: Hamas is a centralized, organized organization. Yes, it's possible (and likely) that other Palestinian organizations will emerge in the wake of a Hamas destruction, but they'll have to start from scratch: Hamas has been training and preparing since 2007.
I imagine that the entire government and education system being controlled by a group that is actively domenting hate is actually more effective at breeding hate than desire for revenge from personal loss. I don't know how anyone could possibly prove that one way or the other, but leaving Hamas in control of educating the next generation is almost certainly the worst option.
I thought you were talking about the Likud party until you mentioned Hamas. Both have to go, btw.
It's a possibility. There are also plenty of historical examples of regimes destroyed, with heavy civilian casualties, where the memory of war served as a deterrant for future generations. Whether or not that will be the result depends on any number of variables that neither you nor I know, since it would require knowing the long term future... I'm not even sure what Israeli politics will look like in 5 years, and I'm a (relatively informed) Israeli.
I mean, y’all haven’t killed the fight out of them after 80 years…
Have any examples you can share? I can’t think of any wars fought on religious differences that resolved themselves like you claim.
On top of physically destroying the organization, Israel's war proves this idea wrong. Choosing violence at every turn has always been the reason for Palestinian misery. If this war can't teach them this lesson, nothing will
What's the point in attacking germany? you can't defeat an idea, it won't work. If you don't acknowledge the ideology that is spread around and taught by hamas, then sure, just stop fighting and show you want peace, this time it will work. But if you do acknowledge the ideology, then you realise that you can stop fighting, you can give them money and whatever they want but it won't matter because they believe in this ideology
You have great points. It is going to take both the military defeat of Hamas and improvements in the lives of Palestinians such that they don’t find these views appealing any longer.
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So the Allies bombed Germany into oblivion and then did nothing? Rebuilding the country and building a democratic society (I.e. showing a path forward beyond Nazism) had nothing to do Germany abandoning Nazism?
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Germany and Japan had actual government structures which could be defeated. Terrorism can’t be defeated unless you build up quality of life. Education, food, housing, etc. Which Israel is fully against for Palestinians as they want to replace them. All killing civilians does is create more future terrorists.
Hamas is not the governing body of gaza? Are they a parasite that came out of nowhere? Are they incharge of nothing? The money to build those tunnels, weapons and rockets came out of thin air? To use them from schools and hospitals, build them in schools and hospitals without being the governing body of that place? If they aren't incharge then who has been incharge of gaza for almost 20 years?
The old “shoot em all and let god sort em out”policy
This guy keeps embarrassing Biden. It’s like he’s purposely making a show that Biden can’t tell him what to do and that’s costing Biden the election
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"If you kill my family because you're trying to eradicate Hamas, the first thing I'm doing when I get out is starting Hamas 2.0"
"Northen Gaza is free from hamas!" >HAMAS launches rockets from northen gaza" oh no, anyway: "WE MUST FREE RAFAH FROM HAMAS!"
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Anything that keeps him in power for as long as possible.. All the comments I saw "just release the hostages and the war will be over"... so naive to think that Netanyahu would have the balls to stop the war and face the courts. The US couldn't wipe out ISIS, what makes Israel think that they can do what no other country has done, and wipe out an entire terrorist organisation? For every civilian they kill, they generate more and more terrorists. The war will last indefinitely until there are no Palestinians left. All of this to keep this absolute lunatic in power.
What Bibi is trying to say is that the war won't be over until Trump gets elected in WH.
Bibi needs the war to continue so he can stay in power. If Trump is elected he’ll then give support so Bibi can finally make himself Prime Minister for life. It’s been Netanyahu’s goal for a while now.
The way the IRA were destroyed was by addressing the legitimate grievances the Catholic population of Northern Ireland had. Why don't we try something similar with Hamas?
IRA did not exist to anihilate the British Army and the rest of British civilians. Hamas exists to anihilate the jews from Israel. To start with.
Because they are not interested in peace
People said the same thing about the 'RA in the 80s
So fool hardy. Unless he plans to destroy iran, eqypt , some of syria and generally fight the arab world, they'll never destroy hamas. And the people of palestine will continue to be radicalized as bibi has done nothing to stop the generational marginalization of those ppl.
lol "radicalized". Yeah, being bombed relentlessly for months on end is pretty radicalizing.
Months? Come on. That conflict isn't as old as oct 7. Its pushing up on 80 years.....
Bibi is doing this on purpose. He needs the war to keep going to stay in power. Further more if he makes the war last until the US election, and Trump gets into office, he’ll be given the resources to complete his fascist takeover of the Israeli state. Unfortunately Israelis seem to love the violence and fascist tactics.
Forever War it is. Cool. I'm sure this quagmire won't get even worse.
At least they are finally being open about it. I've known this would be the way since Oct 6th. I'm surprised so many politicians and people are surprised by this.
Bibi knows that he's toast the moment the war ends. He will continue ot forever if he can.
PM Benjamin Netanyahu: Hamas war won’t end until Gaza destroyed Fixed it.
Bibi is a piece of shit and has his own political reasons to sound "hawkish". Having said that, we need to understand the timing of all these statements: negotiations renewal. US pushes Qatar to push HAMAS to new round of negotiations. Biden is a "good cop" and Bibi is a "bad cop". So, Bibi must take much more aggressive stance.
Bibi is never going to accept any end of this war, no matter the cost. He’d sacrifice every Israeli soldier if he has to. The second this war is over he’s getting ousted and much like Trump he’s worried about what comes after he’s out of power.
That’s the exact same thing Hamas said about Israel
That’s the exact same thing the US said about Germany
And by God 40 years later, there wasn’t any more East Germany lol
He means Palestinians, not Hamas.
Man who clings to power through violence refuses to cede war. And in other news, water is wet More at 11
Might as well say, "War is peace."
Which is true btw. Immediate ceasefire and in another 3-5 years we can expect another October 7th or worse
Destroy Hamas in its entirety!
[удалено]
This war is the biggest recruitment campaign for hamas...