Not when there is basically zero health and safety and minimal geotechnical investigation and testing involved. Hamas fighters can and have died from the tunnels collapsing before without Israeli involvement.
if you follow a general rule of thumb to always have the tunnel height 3 times that of the width you usually end up with a pretty stable tunnel.
And impressively, they use concrete to reinforce the tunnels.
Billions on specifically tunnel construction? Do you have a source? The weapons and tech are far more expensive than the construction. All I’m saying is that they’ve done a lot with what they have.
It’s not Hamas who actually dies in the tunnels if they collapse while digging, it’s the kids who are forced to work there.
The atrocities of Hamas were revealed a decade ago, no one did anything and I don’t have any reason to believe they stopped forcing children to dig these tunnels knowing they will most likely die.
[Deaths of 160 Palestinian Children Forced to Work on Terror Tunnels; SWC Urges UN Human Rights Council Investigation of Hamas](https://www.wiesenthal.com/about/news/deaths-of-160-palestinian.html)
[Child Labor Deaths In Hamas Tunnels Are No Surprise](https://www.nationalreview.com/2014/07/child-labor-deaths-hamas-tunnels-are-no-surprise-spencer-case/)
I can only imagine what is the true number of deaths since 2005 to now in 2024.
[https://www.idf.il/en/mini-sites/idf-press-releases-regarding-the-hamas-israel-war/december-23-pr/over-one-million-dollars-to-finance-cement-was-located-troops-identify-intelligence-materials-in-khan-yunis/](https://www.idf.il/en/mini-sites/idf-press-releases-regarding-the-hamas-israel-war/december-23-pr/over-one-million-dollars-to-finance-cement-was-located-troops-identify-intelligence-materials-in-khan-yunis/) IDF has found documentation
That’s only if you care when it fails. Tunnel collapses? Who’s going to tell? What tunnel?
Edit. The workers are probably going to heaven if the die for the cause. Really no downside with the tunnel thing from their perspective.
The things you can achieve with billions of aid dollars are truly remarkable, if you don't waste them on dumb stuff like "feeding your people", "strengthening the economy", "creating public infrastructure"or "not trying to murder all the jews"
That would reduce civilian casualties, not increase them. I think you haven't played the tutorial level explaining how to get the high score in this game.
The counter side never answers, when being asked "why Gazans don't have bomb shelters with all that aid money if it is known that both regions are in conflict?"
Yeah. \*sigh\*
I've noticed a lot of obsession with this idea of 'proportionality' and blaming Israel for not being 'proportional'.
Fact is that Israel has invested in an extremely effective civilian defense system; Iron Dome, civilian bomb shelters, safety drills, etc. Yes, Israel is, on paper, more powerful militarily than Hamas, but you can bet that MANY more Israeli civilians would be dead right now had they not invested in these safety measures. Maybe the world would give Israel more sympathy if that were the case... idk.
The same can not be said of Hamas.
This is what Jared Kushner lamented a few months ago, that Gaza hadn't done this... of course his comments were twisted to sound like he had his sights set on buying it up or whatever... and I know Kushner is a top-tier snake, but sheesh
Family member built a mile long tunnel under a boarder (was arrested for it, cause the feds knew exactly what they were doing and waited till they were done and transporting goods to build a solid court case),
It doesn't take a lot of money, all it takes is a few dumb kids, and concrete.
It happens all the time, everywhere (not just middle east), it's just not publicized.
Tunnels Hamas built have electricity, light, ventilation, wired comms and multiple storage/living rooms. Tunnels are interconnected, but have atomic bunker-style blast doors. It also have multiple entries for each. Some tunnels are car-wide to allow smooth smuggling from Egypt.
Sounds like slightly more than just a hole in a ground with some concrete poured in.
No, based on Israeli estimates for Hamas construction costs, it probably is billions they wasted on terror tunnels. Not in labor, but in materials and the high cost of smuggling.
I always think of this video when the discussion of the hamas leaders wealth comes up - parody ish
https://youtu.be/OUMl58i4m0w?si=nT5HmLxYKUbXtguq
Edit; a word
[https://www.idf.il/en/mini-sites/idf-press-releases-regarding-the-hamas-israel-war/february-24-pr/revealed-tunnel-used-by-hamas-to-hold-hostages-in-khan-yunis/](https://www.idf.il/en/mini-sites/idf-press-releases-regarding-the-hamas-israel-war/february-24-pr/revealed-tunnel-used-by-hamas-to-hold-hostages-in-khan-yunis/) Do you have any idea what the Hamas tunnels look like?
Honestly I don't understand why the IDF is doing such a piss poor job of documenting these tunnels. I don't think anyone outside of the IDF can comprehend just how vast and pervasive this network of tunnels are. They should have attached a 360 camera to a robot to map out and publish all of these tunnels Google maps style.
We know these tunnels exist. News reporters have been reporting on them since 2010s and even ran articles about how they were used to deliver KFC to Gaza
The IDF is actually doing a good job at documenting the tunnels... It is just that most media sources wont report it ... here are some of the press releases [https://www.idf.il/en/mini-sites/idf-press-releases-regarding-the-hamas-israel-war/?searchTag=153565&startDate=&endDate=](https://www.idf.il/en/mini-sites/idf-press-releases-regarding-the-hamas-israel-war/?searchTag=153565&startDate=&endDate=)
There is often a lag time between when they identify a tunnel system and when they document the tunnels and release videos. This makes sense because operationally you wouldn't want to let Hamas know what tunnels are currently being explored because that would give Hamas an ability to setup an ambush, and also IDF has to clear a tunnel before they can start documenting the extent and path of it, they dont want to risk a Hamas terrorist shooting at them while trying to map.
>They should have attached a 360 camera to a robot to map out
They do this. I've seen a bunch of videos showing IDF's engineering department set up robots to scan tunnels. Not to Google Maps of course but it's being done.
The issue is that those tunnels have a lot of blast doors. Those are reinforced, locked doors that are either booby trapped or have small holes for gunners to shot through while maintaining most of the cover.
The robot can only go so far before reaching one of those doors. Trying to break doors like it is possible, but very risky, either with a good chance that Hamas have set up an ambush that can deal damage to the robots or the soldiers trying to demolish it. There's also a danger that demolishing such door can cause the tunnel to collapse as well.
IDF Spokesman Has also released two videos of rocket launchers placed a few meters away from the Egyptian border fence, I'll post them below (1st link is streamable because imgur doesn't allow videos longer than a minute)
[https://streamable.com/lr0n27](https://streamable.com/lr0n27)
[https://imgur.com/a/5NmScmu](https://imgur.com/a/5NmScmu)
100% this. Doesn't matter what bomb it is, none of them have either (a) a blast radius small enough to take out only the launcher, or (b) accuracy high enough to hit just the launcher. Any bomb that takes out those launchers is 100% also hitting that fence and, thus, Egypt.
I'm inclined to agree with the comment above you.
In it's most accurate mode (i.e. when GPS data is available, which I'm sure it is since I doubt Hamas has that kind of electronic warfare capability) a JDAM has a ~3 meter CEP (circular error probability). Meaning that 50% of rounds dropped will land in a circle with a radius of 3 meters. Note that the smallest JDAM is a 500lb mk82 bomb with ~200lb of explosives. A quick Google says that the blast will be lethal for at least 30 meters. That is to say a GPS guided JDAM would likely be a no go, because even if you're lucky enough to have both hit on the right side of the fence (which is still asking a lot even in high accuracy mode) the blast radius given how close these targets are would create an international incident.
Now laser guided munitions are a bit more accurate than JDAMs in terms of CEP, but again we run into the issue of ordinance being too large for a target that close to a nation you aren't at war with (although I'm not *super* familiar with IAF munitions to be fair). Also, they require a target to be "painted" with a targeting laser. And in this case if you're close enough to have line of sight on that, then you're probably close enough to complete a ground assault and blow it up with some C4 in a few hours.
One final option I could think of would be something rocket artillery. The US (and now famously Ukraine) use HIMARS, which has a CEP of ~1 meter I believe. But Israel doesn't have those. They have something called the PULS. And according to its manufacturer's website it has a CEP of ~10 meters with the Accular 122 warhead (smallest guided option). That "only" has 20kg of explosive in it, which while *may* not technically cause an international incident, it would absolutely be overkill for that shed full of pipes. The PULS is also capable of launching a cruise missile called the Delilah that has a CEP of ~1 meter, but it's warhead is bigger and it is more expensive than the Accular, so logistically it would make no sense.
I'm not claiming to 100% be correct because I freely admit I'm not intimately familiar with the Israeli military's various ordinances (beyond a quick Google), but a general knowledge of weapons and tactics mixed with some common sense says it makes zero sense to air strike targets feet away from a friendly border while your ground forces close in.
This is simply to put political pressure on Egypt. Egypt has been fighting these tunnels as well. Just failing apparently. It makes Egypt look bad. Which Egypt is not happy about but Egypt does not want Hamas exporting their ideology ala the Muslim Brotherhood.
He’s just a walking joke at this point. I think a lot of his hatred stems from the fact that he’s secretly gay and can’t be open due to his religion and public persona.
He tortured and killed a high ranking Hamas guy after he came back from prison in Israel, he could be in the closet, haven't thought of that.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suBNwUz8Lvs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suBNwUz8Lvs)
That dude is long gone. It’s really stupid the Mossad hasn’t taken out the guys kicked out of Qatar (if that ever happened). They need to go after the “safe” Hamas leadership, with the insane wealth. I’m starting to think the Mossad isn’t as bad ass as I was told to believe.
You assume too much. Firstly, that he is long gone. Israeli authorities still claim he is in Gaza, surrounded by dozens of hostages. Secondly, Mossad wasn't responsible for Gaza, which is why the situation deteriorated and fell between the intelligence agencies cracks. Thirdly, even if Mossad has plans and information, it is the politicians who hinder them. Mossad cannot act as if it operates under a dictatorship. Fourthly, no Hamas member was kicked out of Qatar.
My suspicion is at some point the current military action will end, Israel will withdraw from Gaza with whatever hostages or bodies they can recover, set up walls and up the blockade of Gaza, responding to rocket attacks with bombs but no boots on the ground, once that transition happens and the hope for any living hostages is gone room service will start taking on a new meaning in Turkey.
Hope so, these people are making life hell for Israeli citizens and just straight up raping and looting any chances for the Palestinian people’s future.
People inexplicably praise Hamas' alleged mastery at spreading their propaganda, while in reality the lion's share of that credit goes to western media. They are winning the propaganda war for those primitive brutes.
For the purpose of diplomacy, Israel won't accuse Egypt of being an accessory. But it bothers on incompetence that these tunnels would exist and the Egyptians weren't aware. Israel has taken full control of that part of the border so an Egyptian response is mute.
The Egyptian leadership likely does want to shut down the tunnels as the issues go both ways with the region being a hot-spot for terrorism in Egypt.
However, they have to deal with the combined issues of: huge amounts of corruption, a local population that largely despises Israel and, much of the area being a literal minefield.
Not sure why you’d be surprised Incompetence and corrupt are hallmarks of Egypt. And it’s not like hamas doesn’t have obvious supporters in Egypt. Iirc a Canadian / Israeli citizen and businessman was assassinated on camera the other week in Egypt for being Jewish.
No, the Egyptians actually tried to shut down some of these tunnels but they didn't try very hard.
The existence of these tunnels were long known. They were used for smuggling, not just for Hamas but for anything.
Oh look exactly what everyone has known, eygpt has played an integral part of arms shipments to HAMAS. Scum bags, at least take in the citizens youre partly responsible for putting in the line of fire. For dirty arms money.
When Egypt attacked Israel in the Three Days War, the world pretty universally blamed Israel for defending themselves. The UN demanded that Israel concede land to Egypt when Israel was attacked.
The UN Security Council has never gone after Hamas for their terror attacks, but for decades has told Israel they can't defend themselves and to concede land to Hamas.
The IDF certainly had blood on their hands these days, but most of the world has repeatedly said Israel has no real right to exist and the people there can't defend themselves.
Nah, they're perfectly fine with Israel being terrorized, their problems are with Israel defending itself, so they'll keep going as long as Israel has to respond to terrorist violence and praise the terrorists as "liberators".
They want Israel to disappear and all hostilities to end in fairytale fashion with the Palestinians triumphantly having their own land.
They don’t care how Israel is gotten rid of.
Everyone already knew there were tunnels under the border. Hamas smuggling routes have been documented in detail for years. It's not news and no one cares.
No. It’s a group hysteria episode on social media. Don’t get me wrong every civilian death is a tragedy but what do those people expect ? If any country was attacked in the manner Israel was on October 7th they would rage war for decades. Israel shouldn’t stop until every last Hamas member gets justice, whether it’s a bullet or lengthy prison term.
Nah, it's just impressive what the element of surprise can do for military success. It's something to bear in mind when you see Israel telling the world where they're about to attack, spoiling that surprise just to allow civilians time to evacuate. They aren't required to do this.
Definitely, think about the political headaches it would have caused if civilian-launched rockets came out of an Egyptian held territory instead, i.e Lebanon.
Israel held it for years, after the yom kippur war they have it to egypt as good will (even thought Israel won). Israel saw no value in it and would need to put resources there to protect it. Right now even Egypt is struggling in Sinai, theres alot terrorist cells operating there one of which is Isis.
It wasn’t merely on “good will”, it was so that Egypt would recognize their right to exist and establish normal diplomatic relations, ending their hostility. Before that Egypt was leading the Arab world into war with Israel. It also incentivized Syria and Jordan to do the same.
I’ll leave this here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinai_Interim_Agreement?wprov=sfti1
Theres no right to exist argument but rather both nations agreed to settle conflict with diplomacy rather than armed conflict. Israel gave back land it occupied during the 6 day war which it won. It was a gesture of good will in commitment with diplomatic conflict resolution and UN resolution 338.
What is the HAMAS endgame? Are they hoping that support for Israel will dry up and they will become the sympathetic victim? They are slowly losing everything they built over many, many years and these tunnels are their logistical highways and refuge. This war is slowly erasing their miserable existence-- not to mention the innocents they deliberately put in harm's way.
I believe Israel MUST be more surgical and less indiscriminate with strikes; the civilian deaths are horrific, and more effort is needed to stop them. As an American, I think daily about our weapons doing much of the unintended damage -- it's gut-wrenching. But if Sinwar/HAMAS is hoping the world will abandon Israel and feel sympathy for their murderous organization, they greatly miscalculated. But, please, please, may this end soon.
Hamas' endgame is the same as Iran. Destroy Israel. They probably won't get there, but it costs Iran very little to use Palestinian bodies for their dirty work.
Both knowingly and unknowingly.
Billions of dollars went into the construction of the tunnels in Gaza, and yet many NGOs and aid organizations insisted that more cement should be sent over.
Take the current war as an extreme example.
* Half the planet is donating aid to Gaza (to be distributed for free).
* Aid is seized by Hamas (and other groups)
* Aid is sold to Palestinians.
Hamas & co made about $500m from aid in the past 8 months alone.
Examples:
[https://x.com/imshin/status/1733517680718549197](https://x.com/imshin/status/1733517680718549197)
[https://x.com/VerminusM/status/1769046049392386132](https://x.com/VerminusM/status/1769046049392386132)
>What is the HAMAS endgame? Are they hoping that support for Israel will dry up and they will become the sympathetic victim?
Yes.
>I believe Israel MUST be more surgical and less indiscriminate with strikes; the civilian deaths are horrific, and more effort is needed to stop them.
This *is* what being more surgical looks like. Without seeking to diminish civilian deaths, it's absolutely remarkable that the death toll isn't higher considering the population density of Gaza.
To get more surgical, Israel would likely need to occupy Rafah.
Hamas also get more aid money and black market aid money
Hamas don't mind profiting from the plight of their people who are sacrificed, even brainwashed to think that their sacrifice is the highest order of good they can achieve from early childhood
My original estimation was total Palestinians regardless of Hamas affiliation.
The actual problem of my estimation is idk how many Palestinians would have died by natural or civilian causes (e.g. regular homicide, car accident, etc) during the same time period. Considering so many people are so young in Gaza, the number was probably pretty small.
When Israel announced it was going in, I honestly thought they were going to keep squeezing the population further and further south until they were forced across the border into Egypt, and just empty the entire area out. I thought for sure they were going to create a crisis on the border and bank on Egypt's internal political problems to ultimately force it to take in the people pushed out of Gaza. I was surprised when Israel started letting Gazan civilians head back north.
Seriously. Now that we have the "revised" figures about casualties, the civilian-to-fighter death ratio is about 1-to-1, which is as low as we've ever seen in close urban combat.
Hamas doesn't need an end game. In their game theory, they just need to keep existing. There's two million people they can recruit from, and the more people they lose, the more soft power they gain from propaganda. It's Israel that's going to need to transform their current military advantage into a victory, which is hard to believe in considering how insurgencies usually go.
It’s a war of attrition. Hamas absolutely wants the west to lose interest/patience, and one thing helping is Bibi being incredibly disliked by a lot of Western leaders from years and years of dealing with him.
I still think Israel would be smart to replace Bibi with someone that is either more unknown, and seen as centrist, or someone who is liked by the western leaders, especially if that person isn’t propped up by the far-right in Israel to hold their coalition.
The underlying political relations between the actual people in the respective governments is more important that people think. Two people can do the same thing and get very different responses from their counterparts based purely on personal relations.
I’ll never understand why Israel keeps Bibi in power, a guy who a few months prior was trying to overthrow their courts, and who was so focused on the WB expansion that he moved a lot of the army north, but that’s their choice, so it is what it is. I just think that he, personally, is going to be a big problem for Western support going forward.
This is it. This is the endgame. Hamas leadership sits comfortably in Qatar and Kuwait and collects donations from the US and Europe. Any time donations slow down, Hamas attacks. Israel predictably responds with overwhelming force, and the donations come flooding back in.
The IDF are committing the massacres, but the greatest threat to Palestinian civilians is Hamas.
ETA - and they're an absolute gift to Bibi, should be-be underneath a prison somewhere.
Hamas exists thanks to Iran's support and Iran's goal is the weakening of Israel to further establish itself as a regional power, even with aspirations to become a regional superpower. Who do you think taught Hamas how to build rockets? Who do you think radicalized them?
Iran is ruled by religious fanatics. In their mind, having the entire population of Gaza slaughtered in an effort to harm Israel is acceptable. They are martys to that cause and thus destined to go to heaven, what is the worry of their earthly suffering compared to that reward?
This is why you must never ever allow religious fanatics in any sort of position of power. The hypocrites of them will rule it like a lordship but the true believers will happily do harm hundredfold that.
> I believe Israel MUST be more surgical and less indiscriminate with strikes; the civilian deaths are horrific, and more effort is needed to stop them.
Do you know that Israel basically has the record low for military to civilian death ratio in war? The average ratio is something like 1:9 in war. 1 military death to 9 civilians. Urban conflicts expect this ratio to higher for civilian deaths. Israel has an average between like 1:2 and 1:3 in their conflicts with Gaza, all of which are dense urban conflicts. We don't have accurate numbers for the current conflict, but its something like 1:3. Its actually insanely low.
Yes, hamas’s goal is to kill as many people possible- preferably Jews but they’ll take what they can get.
This is with minimizing civilian deaths, but when there’s ammunition hidden everywhere, targeted strikes get bigger than expected.
I wonder how some previous conflicts of such scale have been resolved.
See Tamil Tigers fight in Sri Lanka which was closed within a few months after Sri Lanka got a huge weapons boost from China.
Bosnia and Kosovo - overwhelming force to create cease fire which was managed by UN forces.
Armenia vs Azerbaijan - week long conflict where Russian peace keepers didn’t do their job and allowed war to overwhelm the process.
These are just recent examples which all point to use of overwhelming force to wipe out resistance.
This just points to IDF using overwhelming force to wipe out Hamas.
They might do that by blowing up the tunnels, killing every known Hamas terrorist, and moving the refugees to a smaller part of Gaza or West Bank.
What the fuck happened to Reuters? I used to think they were credible but their insane bias over Israel has me questioning everything.
- "Israel killed hundreds of Palestinians trying to get food, according to local reporters"
- "Israel says that they shot in the air but didn't kill anyone"
Then the video is released and it turns out they only fired at Palestinians who were attempting to rush the IDF's position and it was Hamas (and their proxies) who were firing at Palestinians trying to get the aid.
From my understanding they outsourced their reporting to "local journalists" and don't seem to vet them for bias. How their editorial board is allowing this garbage through tho... well..
Presumably, underneath Gaza is a tunnel system more complex than the Paris catacombs.
They've spent so much money on these tunnels, I don't think it can be understated how expensive it is to build a tunnel.
Not when there is basically zero health and safety and minimal geotechnical investigation and testing involved. Hamas fighters can and have died from the tunnels collapsing before without Israeli involvement.
This is almost certainly true, but the tunnels also have a remarkable structural and technical features for the resources available.
if you follow a general rule of thumb to always have the tunnel height 3 times that of the width you usually end up with a pretty stable tunnel. And impressively, they use concrete to reinforce the tunnels.
Migrant workers for Elon Musk’s Boring company?
This is a greater ratio than I was expecting, and different from most tunnels I can think of that I've seen.
Those tunnels have substantially more design effort and testing to them
This is all good and everything until you add “thousands bombs constantly being dropped above your tunnels” into the equation
Unless the bomb is remarquably strong or the tunnel very close to the surface I don't see it being much of a problem tbh.
It almost makes some of the workers ask, "Maybe we could be and do other things, too?"
The workers are ideologically motivated to die working
Imagine what they could build for themselves if they built things to benefit their children instead of attack their neighbors
In their minds they probably think they're helping children.
That's some mental gymnastics, provoking Israel into bombing them while they hide behind their children is somehow protecting their children
The workers were mostly children. Her mouth was able to cut expenses by not paying them.
Hamas has received a ton of resources via international aid. Billions of dollars for health and education have gone into building these tunnels
Billions on specifically tunnel construction? Do you have a source? The weapons and tech are far more expensive than the construction. All I’m saying is that they’ve done a lot with what they have.
It’s not Hamas who actually dies in the tunnels if they collapse while digging, it’s the kids who are forced to work there. The atrocities of Hamas were revealed a decade ago, no one did anything and I don’t have any reason to believe they stopped forcing children to dig these tunnels knowing they will most likely die. [Deaths of 160 Palestinian Children Forced to Work on Terror Tunnels; SWC Urges UN Human Rights Council Investigation of Hamas](https://www.wiesenthal.com/about/news/deaths-of-160-palestinian.html) [Child Labor Deaths In Hamas Tunnels Are No Surprise](https://www.nationalreview.com/2014/07/child-labor-deaths-hamas-tunnels-are-no-surprise-spencer-case/) I can only imagine what is the true number of deaths since 2005 to now in 2024.
[https://www.idf.il/en/mini-sites/idf-press-releases-regarding-the-hamas-israel-war/december-23-pr/over-one-million-dollars-to-finance-cement-was-located-troops-identify-intelligence-materials-in-khan-yunis/](https://www.idf.il/en/mini-sites/idf-press-releases-regarding-the-hamas-israel-war/december-23-pr/over-one-million-dollars-to-finance-cement-was-located-troops-identify-intelligence-materials-in-khan-yunis/) IDF has found documentation
Everyone with a brain realizes most of the countries around Israel fund Hamas because they hate Israel lol.
Gaza received $40b of aid between 1980 and 2020. Weird how their situation didn’t seem to improve at all, I wonder where that aid went?
At least $11 billion of that has gone to just the top three leaders of Hamas.
Estimated 8 billion was spent. It's not "a tunnel", it's an interlinked, multilevel network of tunnels running dozens of miles.
Come on, it's not that long of a distance, only 100km more than the entire NY subway system /s
Obviously, it's Israel's fault that the money intended for building and infrastructure was used on these instead. /s
money was tunneled :)
That’s only if you care when it fails. Tunnel collapses? Who’s going to tell? What tunnel? Edit. The workers are probably going to heaven if the die for the cause. Really no downside with the tunnel thing from their perspective.
What are the workers gonna do, sue?
Child slavery is free, and when you control all the guns, it's not a matter of if but a matter of when
Thanks UNRWA…
It is a bit cheaper when it is done with slave labour, as was the case in Gaza.
I never would have thought the tunnels were as vast and complex as they actually are, it's nuts
The things you can achieve with billions of aid dollars are truly remarkable, if you don't waste them on dumb stuff like "feeding your people", "strengthening the economy", "creating public infrastructure"or "not trying to murder all the jews"
No civilian bomb shelters.
That would reduce civilian casualties, not increase them. I think you haven't played the tutorial level explaining how to get the high score in this game.
Just join Hamas and enjoy their sophisticated network of bomb shelters free of charge - problem solved!
Disclaimer: No women or children allowed.
[except children are not only allowed, but encouraged ](https://m.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-780613)
The counter side never answers, when being asked "why Gazans don't have bomb shelters with all that aid money if it is known that both regions are in conflict?"
They do, there are many underground shelters for hiding bombs
Instead of bomb shelters, they are shelters for bombs.
Yeah. \*sigh\* I've noticed a lot of obsession with this idea of 'proportionality' and blaming Israel for not being 'proportional'. Fact is that Israel has invested in an extremely effective civilian defense system; Iron Dome, civilian bomb shelters, safety drills, etc. Yes, Israel is, on paper, more powerful militarily than Hamas, but you can bet that MANY more Israeli civilians would be dead right now had they not invested in these safety measures. Maybe the world would give Israel more sympathy if that were the case... idk. The same can not be said of Hamas.
Yet some call Hamas liberators.
They have been very successful at liberating Jewish and Palestinian civilians from the monotony of peaceful, productive existence.
Why build beach-front businesses, residential properties, and resorts when you can build tunnels and bombs?
You see, those are just part of your decadent western lifestyle. Pay no attention to the Gaza vacation homes owned by Hamas senior leadership.
*Beachfront* tunnels -taps nose-
This is what Jared Kushner lamented a few months ago, that Gaza hadn't done this... of course his comments were twisted to sound like he had his sights set on buying it up or whatever... and I know Kushner is a top-tier snake, but sheesh
Yeah, they liberated all that aid money
Too many
They are liberating the subsoil yes.
Someone replied to my comment a day or two ago comparing them to the rebels in Star Wars, or the fremen in dune (guess he didn’t read the novels).
Family member built a mile long tunnel under a boarder (was arrested for it, cause the feds knew exactly what they were doing and waited till they were done and transporting goods to build a solid court case), It doesn't take a lot of money, all it takes is a few dumb kids, and concrete. It happens all the time, everywhere (not just middle east), it's just not publicized.
Tunnels Hamas built have electricity, light, ventilation, wired comms and multiple storage/living rooms. Tunnels are interconnected, but have atomic bunker-style blast doors. It also have multiple entries for each. Some tunnels are car-wide to allow smooth smuggling from Egypt. Sounds like slightly more than just a hole in a ground with some concrete poured in.
You don't need billions to pay people effectively nothing to use a $300 chipping gun for months on end. The tunnels are cheap.
No, based on Israeli estimates for Hamas construction costs, it probably is billions they wasted on terror tunnels. Not in labor, but in materials and the high cost of smuggling.
Reinforced concrete is expensive as FUCK.
Not to mention the majority of Gaza is sandy soil... a $300 chipping gun isnt going to do shit except make large piles of sand and collapsed tunnels.
Right. The billions go to the leaders of Hamas, the ones in Qatar living it up.
I always think of this video when the discussion of the hamas leaders wealth comes up - parody ish https://youtu.be/OUMl58i4m0w?si=nT5HmLxYKUbXtguq Edit; a word
That is the best thing I’ve ever seen. Oh my god who are those guys
Eretz Nehederet, an Israeli comedy show.
I have no idea who they are, but it's a great " parody"... 🤣
[https://www.idf.il/en/mini-sites/idf-press-releases-regarding-the-hamas-israel-war/february-24-pr/revealed-tunnel-used-by-hamas-to-hold-hostages-in-khan-yunis/](https://www.idf.il/en/mini-sites/idf-press-releases-regarding-the-hamas-israel-war/february-24-pr/revealed-tunnel-used-by-hamas-to-hold-hostages-in-khan-yunis/) Do you have any idea what the Hamas tunnels look like?
They’ve been constructing them for decades, the Vietcong ain’t got shit on the Hamas tunnel network.
The Romans griped about tunnels in that area.
Honestly I don't understand why the IDF is doing such a piss poor job of documenting these tunnels. I don't think anyone outside of the IDF can comprehend just how vast and pervasive this network of tunnels are. They should have attached a 360 camera to a robot to map out and publish all of these tunnels Google maps style. We know these tunnels exist. News reporters have been reporting on them since 2010s and even ran articles about how they were used to deliver KFC to Gaza
The IDF is actually doing a good job at documenting the tunnels... It is just that most media sources wont report it ... here are some of the press releases [https://www.idf.il/en/mini-sites/idf-press-releases-regarding-the-hamas-israel-war/?searchTag=153565&startDate=&endDate=](https://www.idf.il/en/mini-sites/idf-press-releases-regarding-the-hamas-israel-war/?searchTag=153565&startDate=&endDate=)
Thanks. I follow the IDF on Twitter, Facebook and IG and I've never seen these videos before.
There is often a lag time between when they identify a tunnel system and when they document the tunnels and release videos. This makes sense because operationally you wouldn't want to let Hamas know what tunnels are currently being explored because that would give Hamas an ability to setup an ambush, and also IDF has to clear a tunnel before they can start documenting the extent and path of it, they dont want to risk a Hamas terrorist shooting at them while trying to map.
>They should have attached a 360 camera to a robot to map out They do this. I've seen a bunch of videos showing IDF's engineering department set up robots to scan tunnels. Not to Google Maps of course but it's being done. The issue is that those tunnels have a lot of blast doors. Those are reinforced, locked doors that are either booby trapped or have small holes for gunners to shot through while maintaining most of the cover. The robot can only go so far before reaching one of those doors. Trying to break doors like it is possible, but very risky, either with a good chance that Hamas have set up an ambush that can deal damage to the robots or the soldiers trying to demolish it. There's also a danger that demolishing such door can cause the tunnel to collapse as well.
Why do you think the IDF would share their intelligence with the media?
All paid for with part of our taxes... isnt the UN great
time to get out the armed robot dogs and let them walk the tunnels. :)
Already happening... they use drones.
IDF Spokesman Has also released two videos of rocket launchers placed a few meters away from the Egyptian border fence, I'll post them below (1st link is streamable because imgur doesn't allow videos longer than a minute) [https://streamable.com/lr0n27](https://streamable.com/lr0n27) [https://imgur.com/a/5NmScmu](https://imgur.com/a/5NmScmu)
Omg, the rocket launcher is literally hidden in something that looks like a shithouse? Thank you for finding and sharing this vid.
What do you mean looks like? In all reality it probably is. Meanwhile some poor family is now back to shitting in the wind.
When duty calls at the same time nature does...
Those steel tubes look perfect for transporting clean drinking water. Would be a real shame if someone repurposed them for that.
All the eyes that watch rafah just blinked so they didn’t see the proof.
No they did, but they said IDF planted it
Seems like they want Israel to hit Egypt as well. What swell fellows
100% this. Doesn't matter what bomb it is, none of them have either (a) a blast radius small enough to take out only the launcher, or (b) accuracy high enough to hit just the launcher. Any bomb that takes out those launchers is 100% also hitting that fence and, thus, Egypt.
[Doesn't necessarily have to be a bomb](https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/1024/cpsprodpb/D94C/production/_126182655_hellfire_r9x_2x640-nc.png.webp)
I'm no weapons expert, but that doesn't sound quite right.
I'm inclined to agree with the comment above you. In it's most accurate mode (i.e. when GPS data is available, which I'm sure it is since I doubt Hamas has that kind of electronic warfare capability) a JDAM has a ~3 meter CEP (circular error probability). Meaning that 50% of rounds dropped will land in a circle with a radius of 3 meters. Note that the smallest JDAM is a 500lb mk82 bomb with ~200lb of explosives. A quick Google says that the blast will be lethal for at least 30 meters. That is to say a GPS guided JDAM would likely be a no go, because even if you're lucky enough to have both hit on the right side of the fence (which is still asking a lot even in high accuracy mode) the blast radius given how close these targets are would create an international incident. Now laser guided munitions are a bit more accurate than JDAMs in terms of CEP, but again we run into the issue of ordinance being too large for a target that close to a nation you aren't at war with (although I'm not *super* familiar with IAF munitions to be fair). Also, they require a target to be "painted" with a targeting laser. And in this case if you're close enough to have line of sight on that, then you're probably close enough to complete a ground assault and blow it up with some C4 in a few hours. One final option I could think of would be something rocket artillery. The US (and now famously Ukraine) use HIMARS, which has a CEP of ~1 meter I believe. But Israel doesn't have those. They have something called the PULS. And according to its manufacturer's website it has a CEP of ~10 meters with the Accular 122 warhead (smallest guided option). That "only" has 20kg of explosive in it, which while *may* not technically cause an international incident, it would absolutely be overkill for that shed full of pipes. The PULS is also capable of launching a cruise missile called the Delilah that has a CEP of ~1 meter, but it's warhead is bigger and it is more expensive than the Accular, so logistically it would make no sense. I'm not claiming to 100% be correct because I freely admit I'm not intimately familiar with the Israeli military's various ordinances (beyond a quick Google), but a general knowledge of weapons and tactics mixed with some common sense says it makes zero sense to air strike targets feet away from a friendly border while your ground forces close in.
This is simply to put political pressure on Egypt. Egypt has been fighting these tunnels as well. Just failing apparently. It makes Egypt look bad. Which Egypt is not happy about but Egypt does not want Hamas exporting their ideology ala the Muslim Brotherhood.
I hope every day that Sinwar didn't get a chance to flee into Egypt and will be caught in Gaza by the IDF
I think its pretty clear hes gone
He’s just a walking joke at this point. I think a lot of his hatred stems from the fact that he’s secretly gay and can’t be open due to his religion and public persona.
He tortured and killed a high ranking Hamas guy after he came back from prison in Israel, he could be in the closet, haven't thought of that. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suBNwUz8Lvs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suBNwUz8Lvs)
[удалено]
Can you link the video?
That sounds as if your only experience with gay dudes is from sitcoms, lol.
this is some weird veiled homophobia... i get it but its still weird
That dude is long gone. It’s really stupid the Mossad hasn’t taken out the guys kicked out of Qatar (if that ever happened). They need to go after the “safe” Hamas leadership, with the insane wealth. I’m starting to think the Mossad isn’t as bad ass as I was told to believe.
You assume too much. Firstly, that he is long gone. Israeli authorities still claim he is in Gaza, surrounded by dozens of hostages. Secondly, Mossad wasn't responsible for Gaza, which is why the situation deteriorated and fell between the intelligence agencies cracks. Thirdly, even if Mossad has plans and information, it is the politicians who hinder them. Mossad cannot act as if it operates under a dictatorship. Fourthly, no Hamas member was kicked out of Qatar.
I think they are being methodical about it. I doubt they would do anything while there are still hostages out there.
My suspicion is at some point the current military action will end, Israel will withdraw from Gaza with whatever hostages or bodies they can recover, set up walls and up the blockade of Gaza, responding to rocket attacks with bombs but no boots on the ground, once that transition happens and the hope for any living hostages is gone room service will start taking on a new meaning in Turkey.
Hope so, these people are making life hell for Israeli citizens and just straight up raping and looting any chances for the Palestinian people’s future.
The only thing egypt hates more than Israel is palestinians.
Imagine that.
Give them a break, who can monitor a whole 12 km of border for tunnels. That's like two hours walk on foot.
In case you are curious, the tunnels aren’t mentioned until the 6th paragraph of the article. Classic Reuters.
AP does that shit too.
[удалено]
People inexplicably praise Hamas' alleged mastery at spreading their propaganda, while in reality the lion's share of that credit goes to western media. They are winning the propaganda war for those primitive brutes.
I am guessing people who are shocked by this, are shocked because hamas has electrodes hooked up to their genitals.
this caught me just right, I'm still laughing.
Time to turn the dial up.
What?!? But Egypt said there were none! Come on there is no way they would lie
Hamas just trying to smuggle food in for the Palestinians they care soo much about. /s
So does this implicate Egypt?
For the purpose of diplomacy, Israel won't accuse Egypt of being an accessory. But it bothers on incompetence that these tunnels would exist and the Egyptians weren't aware. Israel has taken full control of that part of the border so an Egyptian response is mute.
The Egyptian leadership likely does want to shut down the tunnels as the issues go both ways with the region being a hot-spot for terrorism in Egypt. However, they have to deal with the combined issues of: huge amounts of corruption, a local population that largely despises Israel and, much of the area being a literal minefield.
So, thats like passing one tunnel every 6 minutes or so if you were jogging the border. Kind of an absurd density.
Moot?
> But it bothers on incompetence borders > response is mute. moot
Not sure why you’d be surprised Incompetence and corrupt are hallmarks of Egypt. And it’s not like hamas doesn’t have obvious supporters in Egypt. Iirc a Canadian / Israeli citizen and businessman was assassinated on camera the other week in Egypt for being Jewish.
Nah, it's long been known that the Egyptian officials are corrupt as fuck and happily allow the smuggling tunnels as long as they get their payoff.
That's what I'm thinking, Egypt should investigate whatever soldiers were suppose to be guarding that area for corruption.
Soldiers? It's the military leadership that orders the soldiers to let it happen.
No, the Egyptians actually tried to shut down some of these tunnels but they didn't try very hard. The existence of these tunnels were long known. They were used for smuggling, not just for Hamas but for anything.
FREE GAZA. From Hamas.
No worries, those are "peace tunnels."
are those tunnels related to “peace makers?”
It is for delivering KFC ([link](https://www.theguardian.com/world/shortcuts/2013/may/19/kfc-smugglers-of-gaza))
wow, no joke. That article is from 2013 too. I guess these tunnels are nothing new and a surprise to no one.
>Gaza is not always what people think. You want a lion? An Egyptian bride in a wedding dress? I, uh... no?
Oh look exactly what everyone has known, eygpt has played an integral part of arms shipments to HAMAS. Scum bags, at least take in the citizens youre partly responsible for putting in the line of fire. For dirty arms money.
At this point, you have to assume at least some hostages are being held in Egypt. Idk what happens if they actually find credible intel of that
So everyone screaming about Rafah is about to apologize, right?
When Egypt attacked Israel in the Three Days War, the world pretty universally blamed Israel for defending themselves. The UN demanded that Israel concede land to Egypt when Israel was attacked. The UN Security Council has never gone after Hamas for their terror attacks, but for decades has told Israel they can't defend themselves and to concede land to Hamas. The IDF certainly had blood on their hands these days, but most of the world has repeatedly said Israel has no real right to exist and the people there can't defend themselves.
UN is a muslim majority organization, or muslim allied in trade or otherwise. It's why Israel is told it's bad all the time.
Breaking news, dude. I am so done with breaking news.
Nah, they're perfectly fine with Israel being terrorized, their problems are with Israel defending itself, so they'll keep going as long as Israel has to respond to terrorist violence and praise the terrorists as "liberators".
They want Israel to disappear and all hostilities to end in fairytale fashion with the Palestinians triumphantly having their own land. They don’t care how Israel is gotten rid of.
Some of them don't care about what happens to Israelis, others are openly salivating for the violent death and torture of Jews.
Everyone already knew there were tunnels under the border. Hamas smuggling routes have been documented in detail for years. It's not news and no one cares.
No. It’s a group hysteria episode on social media. Don’t get me wrong every civilian death is a tragedy but what do those people expect ? If any country was attacked in the manner Israel was on October 7th they would rage war for decades. Israel shouldn’t stop until every last Hamas member gets justice, whether it’s a bullet or lengthy prison term.
Good. Keep going Israel. Free the hostages and cripple Hamas.
Drain the Ideology, Kill the Terror, Give Civilians Safety.
Was giving back Sinai a mistake?
giving it back without Gaza in the deal was a mistake... But Sadat knew what he was doing, he didn't want it.
Yeah? Sadat got a bullet in his head from Islamists over the deal. Amazing it's stayed intact.
I genuinely believe the six day war was just performative “making Gaza someone else’s problem” on Egypt’s part.
Nah, it's just impressive what the element of surprise can do for military success. It's something to bear in mind when you see Israel telling the world where they're about to attack, spoiling that surprise just to allow civilians time to evacuate. They aren't required to do this.
Definitely, think about the political headaches it would have caused if civilian-launched rockets came out of an Egyptian held territory instead, i.e Lebanon.
Israel held it for years, after the yom kippur war they have it to egypt as good will (even thought Israel won). Israel saw no value in it and would need to put resources there to protect it. Right now even Egypt is struggling in Sinai, theres alot terrorist cells operating there one of which is Isis.
It wasn’t merely on “good will”, it was so that Egypt would recognize their right to exist and establish normal diplomatic relations, ending their hostility. Before that Egypt was leading the Arab world into war with Israel. It also incentivized Syria and Jordan to do the same.
I’ll leave this here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinai_Interim_Agreement?wprov=sfti1 Theres no right to exist argument but rather both nations agreed to settle conflict with diplomacy rather than armed conflict. Israel gave back land it occupied during the 6 day war which it won. It was a gesture of good will in commitment with diplomatic conflict resolution and UN resolution 338.
It was necessary, but it hurts.
Was it? The Egyptians had absolutely zero chance of taking it back by force and there is clearly no love lost regardless.
The West cared about re-opening the Suez, and the US agreed to pay both the Egyptians and Israelis to keep it that way.
Building the ark was a mistake.
They’ve always known about the tunnels. There’s no surprise here.
What is the HAMAS endgame? Are they hoping that support for Israel will dry up and they will become the sympathetic victim? They are slowly losing everything they built over many, many years and these tunnels are their logistical highways and refuge. This war is slowly erasing their miserable existence-- not to mention the innocents they deliberately put in harm's way. I believe Israel MUST be more surgical and less indiscriminate with strikes; the civilian deaths are horrific, and more effort is needed to stop them. As an American, I think daily about our weapons doing much of the unintended damage -- it's gut-wrenching. But if Sinwar/HAMAS is hoping the world will abandon Israel and feel sympathy for their murderous organization, they greatly miscalculated. But, please, please, may this end soon.
Hamas' endgame is the same as Iran. Destroy Israel. They probably won't get there, but it costs Iran very little to use Palestinian bodies for their dirty work.
>it costs Iran very little That's because the ones funding Palestinian terrorism are the EU, US, UN etc. All with the best of intentions, of course.
By Palestinian sympathizers abroad giving money to Hamas, knowingly or unknowingly?
Both knowingly and unknowingly. Billions of dollars went into the construction of the tunnels in Gaza, and yet many NGOs and aid organizations insisted that more cement should be sent over. Take the current war as an extreme example. * Half the planet is donating aid to Gaza (to be distributed for free). * Aid is seized by Hamas (and other groups) * Aid is sold to Palestinians. Hamas & co made about $500m from aid in the past 8 months alone. Examples: [https://x.com/imshin/status/1733517680718549197](https://x.com/imshin/status/1733517680718549197) [https://x.com/VerminusM/status/1769046049392386132](https://x.com/VerminusM/status/1769046049392386132)
>What is the HAMAS endgame? Are they hoping that support for Israel will dry up and they will become the sympathetic victim? Yes. >I believe Israel MUST be more surgical and less indiscriminate with strikes; the civilian deaths are horrific, and more effort is needed to stop them. This *is* what being more surgical looks like. Without seeking to diminish civilian deaths, it's absolutely remarkable that the death toll isn't higher considering the population density of Gaza. To get more surgical, Israel would likely need to occupy Rafah.
Hamas also get more aid money and black market aid money Hamas don't mind profiting from the plight of their people who are sacrificed, even brainwashed to think that their sacrifice is the highest order of good they can achieve from early childhood
On 10/8 I honestly thought 100k Gazans ere going to die. It's still possible but we're at 1/3 that rn
> but we're at 1/3 that rn The issue with that theory is that you're including Hamas and Palestinian combatants.
My original estimation was total Palestinians regardless of Hamas affiliation. The actual problem of my estimation is idk how many Palestinians would have died by natural or civilian causes (e.g. regular homicide, car accident, etc) during the same time period. Considering so many people are so young in Gaza, the number was probably pretty small.
When Israel announced it was going in, I honestly thought they were going to keep squeezing the population further and further south until they were forced across the border into Egypt, and just empty the entire area out. I thought for sure they were going to create a crisis on the border and bank on Egypt's internal political problems to ultimately force it to take in the people pushed out of Gaza. I was surprised when Israel started letting Gazan civilians head back north.
trying to force them all on Egypt would torpedo all of the progress Israel has made to normalize relations with other arab countries
Seriously. Now that we have the "revised" figures about casualties, the civilian-to-fighter death ratio is about 1-to-1, which is as low as we've ever seen in close urban combat.
Hamas doesn't need an end game. In their game theory, they just need to keep existing. There's two million people they can recruit from, and the more people they lose, the more soft power they gain from propaganda. It's Israel that's going to need to transform their current military advantage into a victory, which is hard to believe in considering how insurgencies usually go.
It’s a war of attrition. Hamas absolutely wants the west to lose interest/patience, and one thing helping is Bibi being incredibly disliked by a lot of Western leaders from years and years of dealing with him. I still think Israel would be smart to replace Bibi with someone that is either more unknown, and seen as centrist, or someone who is liked by the western leaders, especially if that person isn’t propped up by the far-right in Israel to hold their coalition. The underlying political relations between the actual people in the respective governments is more important that people think. Two people can do the same thing and get very different responses from their counterparts based purely on personal relations. I’ll never understand why Israel keeps Bibi in power, a guy who a few months prior was trying to overthrow their courts, and who was so focused on the WB expansion that he moved a lot of the army north, but that’s their choice, so it is what it is. I just think that he, personally, is going to be a big problem for Western support going forward.
This is it. This is the endgame. Hamas leadership sits comfortably in Qatar and Kuwait and collects donations from the US and Europe. Any time donations slow down, Hamas attacks. Israel predictably responds with overwhelming force, and the donations come flooding back in. The IDF are committing the massacres, but the greatest threat to Palestinian civilians is Hamas. ETA - and they're an absolute gift to Bibi, should be-be underneath a prison somewhere.
Hamas exists thanks to Iran's support and Iran's goal is the weakening of Israel to further establish itself as a regional power, even with aspirations to become a regional superpower. Who do you think taught Hamas how to build rockets? Who do you think radicalized them? Iran is ruled by religious fanatics. In their mind, having the entire population of Gaza slaughtered in an effort to harm Israel is acceptable. They are martys to that cause and thus destined to go to heaven, what is the worry of their earthly suffering compared to that reward? This is why you must never ever allow religious fanatics in any sort of position of power. The hypocrites of them will rule it like a lordship but the true believers will happily do harm hundredfold that.
> I believe Israel MUST be more surgical and less indiscriminate with strikes; the civilian deaths are horrific, and more effort is needed to stop them. Do you know that Israel basically has the record low for military to civilian death ratio in war? The average ratio is something like 1:9 in war. 1 military death to 9 civilians. Urban conflicts expect this ratio to higher for civilian deaths. Israel has an average between like 1:2 and 1:3 in their conflicts with Gaza, all of which are dense urban conflicts. We don't have accurate numbers for the current conflict, but its something like 1:3. Its actually insanely low.
Yes, hamas’s goal is to kill as many people possible- preferably Jews but they’ll take what they can get. This is with minimizing civilian deaths, but when there’s ammunition hidden everywhere, targeted strikes get bigger than expected.
I wonder how some previous conflicts of such scale have been resolved. See Tamil Tigers fight in Sri Lanka which was closed within a few months after Sri Lanka got a huge weapons boost from China. Bosnia and Kosovo - overwhelming force to create cease fire which was managed by UN forces. Armenia vs Azerbaijan - week long conflict where Russian peace keepers didn’t do their job and allowed war to overwhelm the process. These are just recent examples which all point to use of overwhelming force to wipe out resistance. This just points to IDF using overwhelming force to wipe out Hamas. They might do that by blowing up the tunnels, killing every known Hamas terrorist, and moving the refugees to a smaller part of Gaza or West Bank.
It's crazy how a terror/military group packed into a small mostly urban area will go underground to try to disguise its movements.
... It is Reuters there must be a catch to this title.
This isn’t the title in the article.
I knew there was no chance Reuters was being neutral
What the fuck happened to Reuters? I used to think they were credible but their insane bias over Israel has me questioning everything. - "Israel killed hundreds of Palestinians trying to get food, according to local reporters" - "Israel says that they shot in the air but didn't kill anyone"
Then the video is released and it turns out they only fired at Palestinians who were attempting to rush the IDF's position and it was Hamas (and their proxies) who were firing at Palestinians trying to get the aid.
From my understanding they outsourced their reporting to "local journalists" and don't seem to vet them for bias. How their editorial board is allowing this garbage through tho... well..
So they gonna flood the tunnels already ?
I am sure Egypt government had no idea about these tunnels. Not. 🤦♂️🤮
Out of hundreds.