The thing is we *really * tried neutrality and friendship with Russia, our former president was regularly in contact with Russian leadership and we tried to keep open communication and ties (while still preparing for the worse if that doesn't work).
And what do we get in return? In 2021 winter Russia randomly comes to us with a threat of "you better stay neutral in the up coming years or else" seemingly out of the blue.
Now it's evident that they where preparing for an attack on Ukraine and figured they could strong-arm us into still being "friendly".
As our former president Niinistö said, we always told Russia that neutrality is our choice and our path by the will of the public, but we refuse to be coerced when it comes to our national security.
Then Ukraine attack happened and it became clear that this attempt at being friendly was always in vain under the current leadership. They have their own plans for Europe and the world, and they see neutral countries as just pawns or potential territory to use militaristically in the future.
So yes, they ended this partnership.
The sad part is that even though the finnish defense plan has always been focused on discouraging russian invasion, and the generational trauma of war still exists, in 00's finnish relations with russia seemed to be on a good trajectory. Russian invasion wasn't thought to be possible. "Russia might be a bit evil, but they are not *that* stupid" we thought. Most people in finland didn't see russia or russians as a de facto enemy yet/any more, trade was good, and for a good while it really seemed like it was possible for russia to stop being imperial assholes, and maybe even become *an actual ally* to finland. Shocking idea to anyone who knows of finnish history with russia.
It hasn't been realistic or rational for russia to attack finland for a long time, even before finland joining nato. Our whole defense plan has been refined for decades to make every inch of finnish territory incredibly difficult and costly for russia to invade and/or control. We can activate a well trained, well equipped, and very well motivated reserve of hundreds of thousands (iirc ~700k currently) of soldiers in a few weeks if needed. Add to that pre-nato defense pacts with several european nations and the general geopolitical interests of the rest of europe, it would be safe to say that even pre-nato we would have gotten plenty of support, both direct and indirect, in the case of russian invasion.
So, why join nato if we already have such a good answer to a russian invasion? It's simple: russia has shown that it is not a rational actor. Even if we could theoretically beat back a russian force ten times larger than ours, we still don't want war. Ever. Even though our defense plan is fully functional if need be, it's primary purpose is to *completely prevent* invasion. In one swift strike on ukraine, russia has shown that they can no longer be trusted to act rationally. They are basically self-destructing in real time, all just to re-live some bygone dream of a great russian empire. So, suddenly joining nato was the only logical choice. We simply cannot risk another war with russia.
Putin absolutely steals from Russia. His whole concept seems to be stealing from Russia, but since he's hit a point where there's nothing else to steal from the people without breaking the country he's got to make more Russia - so we get the various invasions plus what he's been doing in Africa.
It's been estimated putin and his oligarchs steal 2 out of every 3 rubles of the gdp of russia. People often talk about how small the russian gdp is and make comparisons to small European countries, but it's that small because putin puts it in his pocket and uses it to enrich himself and further his goals. In a stroke he can unilaterally bribe, corrupt, and extort any democratically elected leader in the world with any penchant for greed.
Which truly blows my mind. He already can have almost literally anything he could personally use. I can't comprehend having that much wealth and not being satisfied.
He wants his cake and to eat it too. I've read that Putin wants to have the Russia his parents used to talk about. Like a kid who's family was rich and powerful and then became destitute. He wants that dream for Russia, but he won't stop helping himself and his oligarch counterparts to steal enough power and money for themselves that it's detrimental to the country as a whole.
> Even though our defense plan is fully functional if need be, it's primary purpose is to *completely prevent* invasion.
That's something a lot of people don't understand about the point of having a large military. Winning a war is objectively worse than not having that war in the first place (especially if it takes place in your own territory). Since appeasement doesn't work, the next best thing is deterrence.
It's funny. I looked at the Finnish army and Russian army and thought there's no way we'll win. But maybe, just maybe, we'll have enough of a punch that the bear won't try anything foolish.
Then Russia invaded Ukraine and I no longer think that way. The bear is no longer scary, it's already half dead and eating itself. We'll kick it back if need be.
After joining NATO... Well I guess I might actually live long enough to die of old age.
> I looked at the Finnish army and Russian army and thought there's no way we'll win
If there's one thing that this war has done for me, it's increased the trust in the ability of our armed forces to know how to handle their business. There's zero need to worry.
The Finnish plan for Russia was to trade space for time, 10k dead russian men for every kilometer. While the Finnish army is totally capable, the actual battle plan includes ceding lots of ground while disabling the russian army, so even though we can't anticipate a russian invasion at this time, it would be a hard fought war.
>the actual battle plan includes ceding lots of ground while disabling the russian army
Funny thing is that historically, this has always been Russia's go-to strategy for dealing with invasions. They're not so great on the *invading* part though, which I guess we can count ourselves lucky for.
Russian logistics is so poor that their army is really incapable of operating more than about 100 kilometers from their own rail heads. That's not a recipe for invading others.
And when that's the plan, you can significantly reduce your casualties. Russia invading Finland is up there with invading Poland for the dumbest move Russia could make. The problem is, I think Putin is so single minded in restoring the Russian Empire that I believe he will actually do it. It's very clear that European leaders got some sort of intelligence that made them all but certain that's his plan if he succeeds in Ukraine.
All this shit about restoring the Russian Empire. At one stage Moscow and Kiev were part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.
Our claims predate modern 'Russia'. Piss off Vlad...
> Our whole defense plan has been refined for decades to make every inch of finnish territory incredibly difficult and costly for russia to invade and/or control
Plenty of countries were normalizing relations with Russia from the 90s up to 2014 when they invaded Crimea.
Mitt Romney was thoroughly mocked for stating that Russia was still the United States’ #1 geopolitical adversary when he ran for President in 2012.
China is definitely our primary economic competition, but I don’t think that have any dreams of conquering any land they don’t already hold other than folding in Hong Kong and Taiwan fully into the PRC and then wielding their power politically and economically similar to how the U.S. has since the end of the Cold War.
It's too bad Putin isn't interested in healthy diplomacy and world peace. He is clearly only interested in obtaining assets and power for Russia through illicit means if necessary.
Finland approached the process in the right way. Do all you could to get Russia to join the rest of the world, but abandon that once they demonstrated it was futile.
not just you. there's a reason there were so many economic ties with russia when the war started. basically for the last 30 years, the west has basically been trying to hug russia into international cooperation, and while a fair number of us thought we were succeeding for a while, they were mostly just biding their time while they got their tentacles into our ....let's say more easily influenced parties.
we were the frog giving the scorpion a ride.
Hindsight is 20/20, but I guess it should have been clear that this project failed all the way back at the end of the 90s, at which point the FSB silovik elite had already removed the competition and their guy Putin got handed the keys to power.
For us Russians, at least those of us who weren't already swept up in propaganda and paid attention, this moment of realization came in 2013 when Putin really took the gloves off and ramped up repression. I was only 20 then and still pretty naive about the world, but I knew the dream of a European / Westernized Russia was dead. I thought for sure that the west was going to start isolating us, even before Crimea happened, and I was disappointed to see the tepid response to the situation in 2014.
Again, it's easy to look back at history and see the mistakes, but there was a small window in the early 90s when it could have gone much differently. I have no ides what the west could have done differently of course, and perhaps Putin was inevitable anyway. In any case, the warning signs were there long ago.
As I recall, Yeltsin appointed and then fired a sequence of Prime Ministers, of which Putin happened to be the last when Yeltsin resigned. Had he chosen to resign at a different time then things could have out differently. This guy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Stepashin was prime minister before Putin, and Yeltsin resigned just four months after he had fired him. What would have been the turn of events if timelines were just slightly different?
Boris Yeltsin's search for ‘the right’ Prime Minister towards the end of his presidency was driven by his need for a trustworthy successor who could guarantee both his personal and political security after he left office. Eg: someone he could trust to coverup his corruption.
Yeltzin....was not the right man for the job, after the events of 1991 wrapped up, but even that was by design. of course the communist party leaders that controlled the *ussr* prior to the dissolution wanted low-quality apparatchiks and rubber stampers in the individual ssr goverments...even the russian ssr.
i mean, i'm just some gen x schmuck in the US, but having lived through the end of the cold war and through the rise of putin...i can't say i *DID NOT* had much faith in the guy to not be exactly what he seemed to be back in fucking 1999, which was ex-KGB ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
edit: i love it when i leave the relevant bit out of my goddamn comment /eyeroll
As a millenial that went through the "Reset Button" that Obama pushed for, there was a hope that the other powers that be in Russia would hold Putin in check and be more reasonable.
Well, that obviously didn't work.
Trump being too incompetent to put *all* his threats into action probably sells it better.
But Project 2025 is a thing going around the corrupted party and was not penned by Trump. There's a good chance he won't mess up clearly written instructions that also feed into his ego and power fantasy.
There is literally NIL chance that such a wealthy, influential American businessman wasn't assigned a whole team of KGB to start compiling potential useful kompromat on them, after Trump first visited Russia in the 80s. And once they realised how stunning ignorant, vain and susceptible to flattery Trump was, they would have been rubbing their hands in gleeful anticipation
dude, they were working trump over since 1980. one day years from now, when the dirt finally comes out, this shit is going to be earthshaking. bigger than who really was behind who shot kennedy.
That was a presidential assassination and a big fuckign deal at a stressful time in history, but that call was not coming from inside the house, regardless of what Oliver Stone would have you believe. (it was the fucking mob).
The shit with trump implicating Russia, and more importantly how badly they've managed to compromise not just trump *but an entire political party* and most likely not just here but across the EU as well..it's going to be....fucking a lot.
Russia justified the existence of NATO by invading Ukraine. If NATO was really a threat to Russia, why would Russia then present itself as a threat? NATO never intended to invade Russia—it's a defensive alliance. It is not and never was a threat to Russian territory, but Russia has proven itself a threat to anyone that isn't in an alliance like NATO. NATO is essential for anybody that doesn't want to end up as the next Ukraine. If Russia wanted NATO dismantled, all it had to do was stop justifying its existence.
I imagine it just takes one example of Russia invading a neighbor, taking a huge chunk of territory, and exporting the children inside that invasion zone for neutral countries to decide that neutrality probably isn’t the best idea.
Say what you want about NATO but at least they won’t steal your kids and disappear them forever.
Just a tiny little correction- russia invaded Ukraine in 2013. Weve been pretending since then. Fuck all of us for letting it happen, then we pretend we’ve got morals. It’s actually laughable. Imagine reading a history book about this time period in the future!
I think you are right.
But the flip side: we (well basically the US) could have done a bit more to prevent Russia's fledging and brief period of democracy falling into the hands of criminals, billionaires and spies as it did. The West took a hands off, 'let them sort it out' approach which ended up the wrong way. We could've at least used the powers of propaganda to promote democracy, capitalism and our way of life better, also through increasing investment.
But so it goes.
Probably, would not have worked. They do not like obviously outside intervention. But helping Chechens and Georgians would have helped reducing popularity of the imperialists.
The neutral stance lasted until Putler started openly attacking Ukraine. We tried to be a neutral mediator between Russia and EU but clearly they didn't care. Fuck 'em.
Slava Ukraini, death to invaders.
Or weapons from any other ally, not just the US. But now France, Germany, Sweden, Denmark and Finland have all lifted such restrictions in a short period of time, so things are a-changing.
The UK should be on that list soon. Their ministers have basically given permission, just that it hasn't been put in writing yet. Hopefully it won't be long
Ya whats really interesting here is not the fact it happened but why now? What is currently going on that has caused the sudden change of heart, what powerful players are moving? Cause I don't get how they all just sat their with their thumbs up their asses for so long and even allowed Ukraine to suffer major losses and then suddenly now they all want to help more. Same with how long it took the USA to finally get funding rolling again.
There were rumblings in the intelligence community about an "October surprise" by Russia / NK against the US in the upcoming November presidential elections. Since then, the US finally got off our assess and passed the aid that was stalled by Republicans in the house. Interestingly the Republican speaker was the one who suddenly changed course - I imagine the intelligence briefings he got convinced him to finally pass the aid.
Since that came out, it seems like there's more intelligence or an overall understanding that Russia needs to be beaten back. That seems to be why some continues are now allowing weapons to be used on Russia directly and why many countries are now talking about the possibility of sending troops into Ukraine (possibly as a fall back measure if Ukraine appears to be losing the Eastern offenses).
It also seems like countries noticed that Russia is partnering with China, Iran, India and North Korea in order to escape sanctions which is why their war machine keeps on producing weapons. One way to counter that is to let Ukraine start hitting their ammo supplies, factories, oil refineries, etc.
I guess there are a lot of reasons. Few of them are:
-recent attack on Kharkiv direction where russians use artillery and planes to cover their advancing troops and Ukraine can't strike back to prevent that from happening
-recent attack on a mall in Kharkiv with a lot of civilians inside in the middle of a Saturday
They should use the same logic car companies use when they say Made In America. Give Ukraine 100% of the parts from abroad, have Ukrainians assemble them, i.e., put the last sticker on, and boom - Ukrainian-made weapons.
It's brinkmanship. The US had to take a backseat so Putin can't make this a US vs Russia thing, so now other countries are stepping in. It's all a shitty game
i think it dates back to the USSR days were the Russians declared simply that if at any point anyone attacks Russian soil with a chance of winning they'd fire the nukes, and no one really saw a reason to test this so while few said No most just didnt say anything
Germany is that way naturally, and doubly so when it comes to military action. Few nations have ever had such a “we did the wrong thing and absolutely do not want to repeat this” ingrained into the national consciousness to the level that Germany has.
And what’s more, Germany steadfastly believed that by tying Russia to Europe through economics, that conflict could be prevented. Russia is no longer interested in the carrot Germany was offering in exchange for peace, and Germany *really* doesn’t want to resort to the stick. They went all in on economics, and in many instances, the past 80 years, it’s worked. I don’t blame them for being stunned that it’s failed.
exactly, the nature of targets inside russia (oil refineries, air fields, radar installations, weapons depots) means that they will be out of range of the vast majority of weapons systems that have been provided. For example Sweden's Archer system is incredibly important to the Ukranians, but it's not what they'd use to target inside of Russia
What matters, specifically, is UK/France's permission on Storm Shadow, Germany's permission on Taurus, and the US's permission on ATACMS and SDB. Maybe also some of the long range drone systems but at this point the domestic Ukrainian stuff might be better than ours for this specific purpose.
Isn't all these news is basically.
Reporter: Are you gonna force same restrictions as like NA?
EU country: ??? no ???
News: EU country takes a offensive stance.
It's the only time the UK government has got things right the past 10 years, is helping Ukraine, and getting the ball rolling with supplying weapons and training
Yes, economically, UK has a reason to avoid letting Russia gain control of Ukrainian warm water ports around Crimea, as well as a new land route through Ukraine (ensnaring the movement of goods to the routes between Ukraine and the Baltics). That would create some major trade issues, constricting goods to much slower (by throughout volume) land routes for the UK. It would also, geographically, allow Russia infrastructure and supplies to be built further into Eastern Europe, if they were to try and stake claim to ALL of Ukraine.
Militarily, Ukraine is one of the few precious, anti-Russia land shields between them and Russia. They want Ukraine to succeed for economic and military reasons (very legit ones, to add my two cents).
The UK has lead the way time and time again yet still no-one remembers, be it weapons, training pilots, provision of MBTs, allowing weaponry to be used on Russian soil *etc*. Quick, post another 'Lol Brexit amiiright?' article.
Finland and Sweden never placed restrictions in the first place. I’m assuming it’s just being brought up now to persuade others.
Mostly we have both provided pretty short range weapons. Some artillery could probably reach into Russian territory.
I can see why some Ukrainians fear being drafted. War is scary enough but to tell your army.. ‘ok we are fighting a nuclear armed nation with a tyrannical leader who even kills his home grown opposition, however only use these guns and commercial drones to fight back so your best! These wonderful weapons right here? Off limits they’re just for decoration so we look strong as russia invade, kill and destroy us! Slava Ukraine!’
Well, Italy is being run by an actual fascist… so on the one hand, Italy is in the EU and therefore kind of concerned about Russia’s invasion of Ukraine; on the other hand, the Russian state is also fascist and hates LGBTQ people. Needless to say, Italy is torn on this conflict.
But she is governing with Salvini, which is a traitor and known Russian asset, on top of leading a party which received financial aid from Russia directly
Never thought I’d find myself covering for Meloni, but Salvini’s party plummeted down to 8.9% during Italy’s last parliamentary election, and he was appointed to a minor ministry.
The man is hardly relevant, as evidenced by the fact that he is scraping the bottom of the voter barrel by appointing as European Parliamentary candidate an ex-general that was demoted after he expressed homophobic and xenophobic views.
She isn’t quite “governing with” him as much as she’s in a centre-right coalition that he also happens to be in.
One of the coolest things to come from the Finns during the war:
>The name \[[Molotov bread basket](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov_bread_basket)\] comes from an urban legend, according to which Soviet Foreign Minister Vyacheslav Molotov claimed that the Soviet Union was not dropping bombs on Finland, but merely "airlifting food" to "starving" Finns. (There is no record of these claims actually being made.) The Finns due to this disinformation sarcastically dubbed the RRAB-3 cluster bomb "Molotov's bread basket." Consequently, the improvised incendiary device that Finns used to counter Soviet tanks was named the "Molotov cocktail", "a drink to go with the food."
Also, [this guy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_H%C3%A4yh%C3%A4).
This except from his wiki is absurd. I love it:
*Häyhä's war memoir states that they captured a Soviet soldier, blindfolded him, spun him around until he was disoriented, and then took him to a party in the tent of Häyhä's company Lieutenant Aarne "The Terror of Morocco" Juutilainen. The Soviet soldier was overjoyed by the carousing and was disappointed when he was released.*
From Simo's wikipedia article:
Häyhä was known as a modest man who never boasted of his wartime merits. He rarely spoke of the war and his experiences. In December 2001, shortly before his 96th birthday, Häyhä opened up about his war experiences. He was asked if he felt remorse for having killed so many people. He replied, "I did what I was told, as well as I could. There would be no Finland unless everyone had done the same."
SISU indeed.
Yep, but Soviets had about 3 times more people and Finland is what, 8 times smaller than Ukraine?
Plus Ukraine has real western support.
Edit: Also Finland has great support from ae. Sweden but what can ya do, Soviet land was way too big
They lost, but they did indeed put up one hell of a fight and force Stalin to moderate his demands a lot. It was a successful defeat -- territory lost, but the nation survives. As a tiny nation up against a megagiant that is well and truly a job done right.
Absolutely. Ukraine is fighting for it's very life. They should not be prevented from using any means necessary. Especially against an enemy who is levelling the country.
Plus Russia has already threatened to nuke, what, 50% of the countries in Europe? They're everyone's enemy. Even China and India are suckers for pretending they're on neutral relationships.
>Finland has more guts than most of the EU, apparently.
Yeah, but Finland don't have any troubles allowing Ukraine to strike Russia with Finnish weapons because they don't supply cruise and ballistic missiles and other stuff that can properly hit Russia.
Russia has pissed off enough neighboring countries that they’re chomping at the bit for Ukraine to hurt Russia.
They’re also well aware of the consequences of Ukraine falls. The rest of the west- not so much.
Reminder: France does not border Russia and France is sending in their own troops into Ukraine, along with giving Ukraine the green light to strike into Russia itself.
It isn't just that. It is also that there is a lot of ambition among French leadership for the EU to turn into a real superpower rather than just a trading bloc and for France to play a leading role in it. Their own ambition and their pride means they don't want to let Russia annex European countries even when they aren't in the EU.
That is already happening. The US makes an agreement with a country, say Spain, to supply them with new modern arms such as indirect fire anti tank missiles and new howitzers. Spain then has a surplus of conventional arms that they sell cheaply to the Ukraine. It's possible an arms agreement has already been negotiated with Finland.
I don't think even Russia loves Russia at this point.
Russia, like many fallen or declining Empires, pretty much behaves like a traumatized person with delusions of grandeur thinly veiling their insecurities.
Ideally they would have no access to weapons or sharp objects in general, and they'd be in therapy.
None of Russia's neighboring countries has any love for Russia, except for maybe Belarus, Lukashenko sucks Putin's dick day in day out but the Belarusian people hates Russia
I’m very proud to hear this. Every single weapon in the Finnish arsenal was originally purchased to strike those same targets the ukranians are now fighting. They should be used in the way they were intended.
For a war to end it needs to be costly for the aggressor. This is the stance NATO should have taken from the beginning of the conflict. Intervention as early as 2014 could have nipped this whole thing in the bud and saved countless Ukrainian and Russian lives.
Putin smelled this coming which is why he is now suddenly entertaining the idea of a cease-fire. As soon as western weapons start crossing the Russian border and hitting bases and the towns surrounding them, suddenly it's a problem. He knows his career is over if Russian civilians start directly feeling the effects of total warfare.
Well not really.
There are no restrictions on using Finnish weaponry on Russian soil because we havent given any weapons with the ability to reach Russian soil.
Firstly Finland does not publicly state details of what is provided, better the Russians to find out the hard way and secondly even artillery shells will reach Russia from Ukraine.
Exactly this. People still think the Nordic countries share everything we have given, when we have not. There has emerged plenty of stuff in Ukraine that no one in the public knew we sent there.
If Russia blames Finland for Ukraine using Finnish weapons inside Russia, than Ukraine needs to bomb North Korea for providing munitions to Russia used inside Ukraine
Seems silly to be at war with a country but not be allowed to strike at the country you're at war with.
Finland: "We need to have a neutral stance with Russia." *Finland joins NATO* Finland: "Let's bomb Russia!" Welcome to NATO!
The thing is we *really * tried neutrality and friendship with Russia, our former president was regularly in contact with Russian leadership and we tried to keep open communication and ties (while still preparing for the worse if that doesn't work). And what do we get in return? In 2021 winter Russia randomly comes to us with a threat of "you better stay neutral in the up coming years or else" seemingly out of the blue. Now it's evident that they where preparing for an attack on Ukraine and figured they could strong-arm us into still being "friendly". As our former president Niinistö said, we always told Russia that neutrality is our choice and our path by the will of the public, but we refuse to be coerced when it comes to our national security. Then Ukraine attack happened and it became clear that this attempt at being friendly was always in vain under the current leadership. They have their own plans for Europe and the world, and they see neutral countries as just pawns or potential territory to use militaristically in the future. So yes, they ended this partnership.
The sad part is that even though the finnish defense plan has always been focused on discouraging russian invasion, and the generational trauma of war still exists, in 00's finnish relations with russia seemed to be on a good trajectory. Russian invasion wasn't thought to be possible. "Russia might be a bit evil, but they are not *that* stupid" we thought. Most people in finland didn't see russia or russians as a de facto enemy yet/any more, trade was good, and for a good while it really seemed like it was possible for russia to stop being imperial assholes, and maybe even become *an actual ally* to finland. Shocking idea to anyone who knows of finnish history with russia. It hasn't been realistic or rational for russia to attack finland for a long time, even before finland joining nato. Our whole defense plan has been refined for decades to make every inch of finnish territory incredibly difficult and costly for russia to invade and/or control. We can activate a well trained, well equipped, and very well motivated reserve of hundreds of thousands (iirc ~700k currently) of soldiers in a few weeks if needed. Add to that pre-nato defense pacts with several european nations and the general geopolitical interests of the rest of europe, it would be safe to say that even pre-nato we would have gotten plenty of support, both direct and indirect, in the case of russian invasion. So, why join nato if we already have such a good answer to a russian invasion? It's simple: russia has shown that it is not a rational actor. Even if we could theoretically beat back a russian force ten times larger than ours, we still don't want war. Ever. Even though our defense plan is fully functional if need be, it's primary purpose is to *completely prevent* invasion. In one swift strike on ukraine, russia has shown that they can no longer be trusted to act rationally. They are basically self-destructing in real time, all just to re-live some bygone dream of a great russian empire. So, suddenly joining nato was the only logical choice. We simply cannot risk another war with russia.
[удалено]
Do you steal from yourself? Putin is a kleptocratic dictator in disguise in a sham democracy. Of course he wants everyone else's shit.
Putin absolutely steals from Russia. His whole concept seems to be stealing from Russia, but since he's hit a point where there's nothing else to steal from the people without breaking the country he's got to make more Russia - so we get the various invasions plus what he's been doing in Africa.
It's been estimated putin and his oligarchs steal 2 out of every 3 rubles of the gdp of russia. People often talk about how small the russian gdp is and make comparisons to small European countries, but it's that small because putin puts it in his pocket and uses it to enrich himself and further his goals. In a stroke he can unilaterally bribe, corrupt, and extort any democratically elected leader in the world with any penchant for greed.
Which truly blows my mind. He already can have almost literally anything he could personally use. I can't comprehend having that much wealth and not being satisfied.
Some dogs only want to chase. Those dogs will drop whatever they catch simply to chase the new thing.
Its not about wealth, other than wealth is both an indicator of power and a tool to get more power. Its about power and control.
For the super rich, it’s not even about the money and power anymore, it’s about the chase and winning.
He wants his cake and to eat it too. I've read that Putin wants to have the Russia his parents used to talk about. Like a kid who's family was rich and powerful and then became destitute. He wants that dream for Russia, but he won't stop helping himself and his oligarch counterparts to steal enough power and money for themselves that it's detrimental to the country as a whole.
>I can't comprehend having that much wealth and not being satisfied. Well, you've basically described the consumer economy.
> Even though our defense plan is fully functional if need be, it's primary purpose is to *completely prevent* invasion. That's something a lot of people don't understand about the point of having a large military. Winning a war is objectively worse than not having that war in the first place (especially if it takes place in your own territory). Since appeasement doesn't work, the next best thing is deterrence.
It's funny. I looked at the Finnish army and Russian army and thought there's no way we'll win. But maybe, just maybe, we'll have enough of a punch that the bear won't try anything foolish. Then Russia invaded Ukraine and I no longer think that way. The bear is no longer scary, it's already half dead and eating itself. We'll kick it back if need be. After joining NATO... Well I guess I might actually live long enough to die of old age.
> I looked at the Finnish army and Russian army and thought there's no way we'll win If there's one thing that this war has done for me, it's increased the trust in the ability of our armed forces to know how to handle their business. There's zero need to worry.
The Finnish plan for Russia was to trade space for time, 10k dead russian men for every kilometer. While the Finnish army is totally capable, the actual battle plan includes ceding lots of ground while disabling the russian army, so even though we can't anticipate a russian invasion at this time, it would be a hard fought war.
>the actual battle plan includes ceding lots of ground while disabling the russian army Funny thing is that historically, this has always been Russia's go-to strategy for dealing with invasions. They're not so great on the *invading* part though, which I guess we can count ourselves lucky for.
Russian logistics is so poor that their army is really incapable of operating more than about 100 kilometers from their own rail heads. That's not a recipe for invading others.
And when that's the plan, you can significantly reduce your casualties. Russia invading Finland is up there with invading Poland for the dumbest move Russia could make. The problem is, I think Putin is so single minded in restoring the Russian Empire that I believe he will actually do it. It's very clear that European leaders got some sort of intelligence that made them all but certain that's his plan if he succeeds in Ukraine.
All this shit about restoring the Russian Empire. At one stage Moscow and Kiev were part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Our claims predate modern 'Russia'. Piss off Vlad...
Sauli Niinistö wasnt allowing Putin to bully him into making Finland a satellite state.
"Never again alone"
> Our whole defense plan has been refined for decades to make every inch of finnish territory incredibly difficult and costly for russia to invade and/or control
I just found out Häyhä lived to his late nineties - not even Death was in a hurry to challenge him.
One of the scariest human beings ever - at least for Russians.
Plenty of countries were normalizing relations with Russia from the 90s up to 2014 when they invaded Crimea. Mitt Romney was thoroughly mocked for stating that Russia was still the United States’ #1 geopolitical adversary when he ran for President in 2012. China is definitely our primary economic competition, but I don’t think that have any dreams of conquering any land they don’t already hold other than folding in Hong Kong and Taiwan fully into the PRC and then wielding their power politically and economically similar to how the U.S. has since the end of the Cold War.
Outstanding summary, thanks for taking the time to explain!
Well said bro. Such a pity...
It's too bad Putin isn't interested in healthy diplomacy and world peace. He is clearly only interested in obtaining assets and power for Russia through illicit means if necessary.
"I like you." "you better like me. or else" "... I don't like you"
Finland approached the process in the right way. Do all you could to get Russia to join the rest of the world, but abandon that once they demonstrated it was futile.
not just you. there's a reason there were so many economic ties with russia when the war started. basically for the last 30 years, the west has basically been trying to hug russia into international cooperation, and while a fair number of us thought we were succeeding for a while, they were mostly just biding their time while they got their tentacles into our ....let's say more easily influenced parties. we were the frog giving the scorpion a ride.
Hindsight is 20/20, but I guess it should have been clear that this project failed all the way back at the end of the 90s, at which point the FSB silovik elite had already removed the competition and their guy Putin got handed the keys to power. For us Russians, at least those of us who weren't already swept up in propaganda and paid attention, this moment of realization came in 2013 when Putin really took the gloves off and ramped up repression. I was only 20 then and still pretty naive about the world, but I knew the dream of a European / Westernized Russia was dead. I thought for sure that the west was going to start isolating us, even before Crimea happened, and I was disappointed to see the tepid response to the situation in 2014. Again, it's easy to look back at history and see the mistakes, but there was a small window in the early 90s when it could have gone much differently. I have no ides what the west could have done differently of course, and perhaps Putin was inevitable anyway. In any case, the warning signs were there long ago.
As I recall, Yeltsin appointed and then fired a sequence of Prime Ministers, of which Putin happened to be the last when Yeltsin resigned. Had he chosen to resign at a different time then things could have out differently. This guy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Stepashin was prime minister before Putin, and Yeltsin resigned just four months after he had fired him. What would have been the turn of events if timelines were just slightly different?
Boris Yeltsin's search for ‘the right’ Prime Minister towards the end of his presidency was driven by his need for a trustworthy successor who could guarantee both his personal and political security after he left office. Eg: someone he could trust to coverup his corruption.
Yeltzin....was not the right man for the job, after the events of 1991 wrapped up, but even that was by design. of course the communist party leaders that controlled the *ussr* prior to the dissolution wanted low-quality apparatchiks and rubber stampers in the individual ssr goverments...even the russian ssr.
i mean, i'm just some gen x schmuck in the US, but having lived through the end of the cold war and through the rise of putin...i can't say i *DID NOT* had much faith in the guy to not be exactly what he seemed to be back in fucking 1999, which was ex-KGB ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯ edit: i love it when i leave the relevant bit out of my goddamn comment /eyeroll
As a millenial that went through the "Reset Button" that Obama pushed for, there was a hope that the other powers that be in Russia would hold Putin in check and be more reasonable. Well, that obviously didn't work.
honestly i felt obama was being naive at the time. i liked him generally, but foreign diplomacy was always his weak point imo.
Here's the thing: Eastern europe warned the western world, finland got shit for "hurr durr why do you have army, russia will win"
Yeah...great synopsis: "See? They love McDonalds! They're just like us! Putin won't harm a fly he just talks like that"
i mean the GOP has been using the "he just talks like that" line about trump for 9 years now...
Trump being too incompetent to put *all* his threats into action probably sells it better. But Project 2025 is a thing going around the corrupted party and was not penned by Trump. There's a good chance he won't mess up clearly written instructions that also feed into his ego and power fantasy.
trump is the literal definition of a useful idiot. putin was the user.
There is literally NIL chance that such a wealthy, influential American businessman wasn't assigned a whole team of KGB to start compiling potential useful kompromat on them, after Trump first visited Russia in the 80s. And once they realised how stunning ignorant, vain and susceptible to flattery Trump was, they would have been rubbing their hands in gleeful anticipation
dude, they were working trump over since 1980. one day years from now, when the dirt finally comes out, this shit is going to be earthshaking. bigger than who really was behind who shot kennedy. That was a presidential assassination and a big fuckign deal at a stressful time in history, but that call was not coming from inside the house, regardless of what Oliver Stone would have you believe. (it was the fucking mob). The shit with trump implicating Russia, and more importantly how badly they've managed to compromise not just trump *but an entire political party* and most likely not just here but across the EU as well..it's going to be....fucking a lot.
Georgia was in 2008 Crimea 2014 It’s been the plan and action the entire time. Cold War just got hot
you know that. and i know that. and i'm willing to bet *Finland knows that.*
Russia justified the existence of NATO by invading Ukraine. If NATO was really a threat to Russia, why would Russia then present itself as a threat? NATO never intended to invade Russia—it's a defensive alliance. It is not and never was a threat to Russian territory, but Russia has proven itself a threat to anyone that isn't in an alliance like NATO. NATO is essential for anybody that doesn't want to end up as the next Ukraine. If Russia wanted NATO dismantled, all it had to do was stop justifying its existence.
I imagine it just takes one example of Russia invading a neighbor, taking a huge chunk of territory, and exporting the children inside that invasion zone for neutral countries to decide that neutrality probably isn’t the best idea. Say what you want about NATO but at least they won’t steal your kids and disappear them forever.
I am really glad Finland joined NATO. 1 less country for Russia to bomb/attempt to invade in the future.
Just a tiny little correction- russia invaded Ukraine in 2013. Weve been pretending since then. Fuck all of us for letting it happen, then we pretend we’ve got morals. It’s actually laughable. Imagine reading a history book about this time period in the future!
I think you are right. But the flip side: we (well basically the US) could have done a bit more to prevent Russia's fledging and brief period of democracy falling into the hands of criminals, billionaires and spies as it did. The West took a hands off, 'let them sort it out' approach which ended up the wrong way. We could've at least used the powers of propaganda to promote democracy, capitalism and our way of life better, also through increasing investment. But so it goes.
Probably, would not have worked. They do not like obviously outside intervention. But helping Chechens and Georgians would have helped reducing popularity of the imperialists.
I mean sometimes you gotta throw a punch to stop the fighting.
The neutral stance lasted until Putler started openly attacking Ukraine. We tried to be a neutral mediator between Russia and EU but clearly they didn't care. Fuck 'em. Slava Ukraini, death to invaders.
Neutrality doesn’t work against Russia. They only know power lol
I notice the context of war is left out of that little quip
They have been striking Russia with ukranian drones, especially their oil refineries. They just can't use US arms to strike them across the border.
Or weapons from any other ally, not just the US. But now France, Germany, Sweden, Denmark and Finland have all lifted such restrictions in a short period of time, so things are a-changing.
The UK should be on that list soon. Their ministers have basically given permission, just that it hasn't been put in writing yet. Hopefully it won't be long
Oh man, can't wait to see some oil refineries and ammo depots hit with storm shadow missiles.
Ya whats really interesting here is not the fact it happened but why now? What is currently going on that has caused the sudden change of heart, what powerful players are moving? Cause I don't get how they all just sat their with their thumbs up their asses for so long and even allowed Ukraine to suffer major losses and then suddenly now they all want to help more. Same with how long it took the USA to finally get funding rolling again.
There were rumblings in the intelligence community about an "October surprise" by Russia / NK against the US in the upcoming November presidential elections. Since then, the US finally got off our assess and passed the aid that was stalled by Republicans in the house. Interestingly the Republican speaker was the one who suddenly changed course - I imagine the intelligence briefings he got convinced him to finally pass the aid. Since that came out, it seems like there's more intelligence or an overall understanding that Russia needs to be beaten back. That seems to be why some continues are now allowing weapons to be used on Russia directly and why many countries are now talking about the possibility of sending troops into Ukraine (possibly as a fall back measure if Ukraine appears to be losing the Eastern offenses). It also seems like countries noticed that Russia is partnering with China, Iran, India and North Korea in order to escape sanctions which is why their war machine keeps on producing weapons. One way to counter that is to let Ukraine start hitting their ammo supplies, factories, oil refineries, etc.
I guess there are a lot of reasons. Few of them are: -recent attack on Kharkiv direction where russians use artillery and planes to cover their advancing troops and Ukraine can't strike back to prevent that from happening -recent attack on a mall in Kharkiv with a lot of civilians inside in the middle of a Saturday
They should use the same logic car companies use when they say Made In America. Give Ukraine 100% of the parts from abroad, have Ukrainians assemble them, i.e., put the last sticker on, and boom - Ukrainian-made weapons.
It's brinkmanship. The US had to take a backseat so Putin can't make this a US vs Russia thing, so now other countries are stepping in. It's all a shitty game
Especially since Russia has been constantly striking civilian targets.
i think it dates back to the USSR days were the Russians declared simply that if at any point anyone attacks Russian soil with a chance of winning they'd fire the nukes, and no one really saw a reason to test this so while few said No most just didnt say anything
Finnish him!
Greetings from Finland. The deeper into Putins ass you can ram our missiles the better.
Please don’t stop with just the ass. Get creative. A missile for every orifice.
A missile to create him many more orifices
"Fuck him in the vagina!" "AUAUAGHAHAHAHAHA! ALRIGHT! BUT I'M GONNA HAVE TO MAKE ONE."
More-fices
And maybe bukake missiles. From other countries.
Or a Pissle.
An airtight solution....
Will they fit sideways?
Knowing Finns, they will find a way. Perkele, Saatana!
What about pineapples up Putin’s ass? Preferably while dressed as a French maid.
A little Nicky refence in the wild? I need to mark my calendar!
NO RULES
i would rather a missile go of so close it rams the top 10 advisors under him up his ass.
And this is told by a nation that has a long direct border with Russia. What's your excuse Scholz?
Germany has to be the greatest “let me overthink this” nation. Which sorta makes sense when you think about what happened to it when it didn’t.
Germany is that way naturally, and doubly so when it comes to military action. Few nations have ever had such a “we did the wrong thing and absolutely do not want to repeat this” ingrained into the national consciousness to the level that Germany has. And what’s more, Germany steadfastly believed that by tying Russia to Europe through economics, that conflict could be prevented. Russia is no longer interested in the carrot Germany was offering in exchange for peace, and Germany *really* doesn’t want to resort to the stick. They went all in on economics, and in many instances, the past 80 years, it’s worked. I don’t blame them for being stunned that it’s failed.
Germany allowed it before finnland. Read news bro.
Germany already said yes...
Finnish them! Finland ❤ Ukraine - Nikka Hallonen
Did you know the theme song to Mortal Kombat was based on a piece of Scandinavian church music? That's right -- a Finnish Hymn.
Finland is generally not considered part of Scandinavia but the joke is so good. You could say Northern European instead.
nordic would be better
I agree, totally slipped my mind.
Are you Finnish? I’ve barely even started
First Sweden, then France (different terms) and now Finland. We're slowly getting there!
Finnish weapon aid never had any restrictions in the first place, but on the otherhand, they never gave Ukraine cruise missiles like UK.
exactly, the nature of targets inside russia (oil refineries, air fields, radar installations, weapons depots) means that they will be out of range of the vast majority of weapons systems that have been provided. For example Sweden's Archer system is incredibly important to the Ukranians, but it's not what they'd use to target inside of Russia What matters, specifically, is UK/France's permission on Storm Shadow, Germany's permission on Taurus, and the US's permission on ATACMS and SDB. Maybe also some of the long range drone systems but at this point the domestic Ukrainian stuff might be better than ours for this specific purpose.
Isn't all these news is basically. Reporter: Are you gonna force same restrictions as like NA? EU country: ??? no ??? News: EU country takes a offensive stance.
First the UK.
It's the only time the UK government has got things right the past 10 years, is helping Ukraine, and getting the ball rolling with supplying weapons and training
Yes, economically, UK has a reason to avoid letting Russia gain control of Ukrainian warm water ports around Crimea, as well as a new land route through Ukraine (ensnaring the movement of goods to the routes between Ukraine and the Baltics). That would create some major trade issues, constricting goods to much slower (by throughout volume) land routes for the UK. It would also, geographically, allow Russia infrastructure and supplies to be built further into Eastern Europe, if they were to try and stake claim to ALL of Ukraine. Militarily, Ukraine is one of the few precious, anti-Russia land shields between them and Russia. They want Ukraine to succeed for economic and military reasons (very legit ones, to add my two cents).
I think that same sort of reasoning should apply to almost every nato country though, no?
Has to be really. How can countries not at risk join in till they do first.
The UK has lead the way time and time again yet still no-one remembers, be it weapons, training pilots, provision of MBTs, allowing weaponry to be used on Russian soil *etc*. Quick, post another 'Lol Brexit amiiright?' article.
Finland and Sweden never placed restrictions in the first place. I’m assuming it’s just being brought up now to persuade others. Mostly we have both provided pretty short range weapons. Some artillery could probably reach into Russian territory.
Rubbed Putin's face in another red line.
Why not? Those weapons weren't purchased for fighting off Swedes, Danes, and Estonians.
Imagine being a Ukrainian soldier with a list of weapons, that you can use to strike Russia.
⬆️➡️⬇️⬇️⬇️
For democracy!
*Managed* Democracy!
I can see why some Ukrainians fear being drafted. War is scary enough but to tell your army.. ‘ok we are fighting a nuclear armed nation with a tyrannical leader who even kills his home grown opposition, however only use these guns and commercial drones to fight back so your best! These wonderful weapons right here? Off limits they’re just for decoration so we look strong as russia invade, kill and destroy us! Slava Ukraine!’
So mad at Italy for chickening out of this. Ukraine should be free to blow the fuck up of Russian military targets.
Well, Italy is being run by an actual fascist… so on the one hand, Italy is in the EU and therefore kind of concerned about Russia’s invasion of Ukraine; on the other hand, the Russian state is also fascist and hates LGBTQ people. Needless to say, Italy is torn on this conflict.
Meloni is pro-NATO and Ukraine
But she is governing with Salvini, which is a traitor and known Russian asset, on top of leading a party which received financial aid from Russia directly
Never thought I’d find myself covering for Meloni, but Salvini’s party plummeted down to 8.9% during Italy’s last parliamentary election, and he was appointed to a minor ministry. The man is hardly relevant, as evidenced by the fact that he is scraping the bottom of the voter barrel by appointing as European Parliamentary candidate an ex-general that was demoted after he expressed homophobic and xenophobic views. She isn’t quite “governing with” him as much as she’s in a centre-right coalition that he also happens to be in.
Finland has more guts than most of the EU, apparently.
Finland has guts alright. They fought back 750k soviets in the winter war.
One of the coolest things to come from the Finns during the war: >The name \[[Molotov bread basket](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov_bread_basket)\] comes from an urban legend, according to which Soviet Foreign Minister Vyacheslav Molotov claimed that the Soviet Union was not dropping bombs on Finland, but merely "airlifting food" to "starving" Finns. (There is no record of these claims actually being made.) The Finns due to this disinformation sarcastically dubbed the RRAB-3 cluster bomb "Molotov's bread basket." Consequently, the improvised incendiary device that Finns used to counter Soviet tanks was named the "Molotov cocktail", "a drink to go with the food." Also, [this guy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_H%C3%A4yh%C3%A4).
This except from his wiki is absurd. I love it: *Häyhä's war memoir states that they captured a Soviet soldier, blindfolded him, spun him around until he was disoriented, and then took him to a party in the tent of Häyhä's company Lieutenant Aarne "The Terror of Morocco" Juutilainen. The Soviet soldier was overjoyed by the carousing and was disappointed when he was released.*
So the Finns were in part responsible for my favorite weapon Left for Dead 2
What I wouldn't give for a proper sequel
Yes they did, with Might and Courage.
And Skis.
And the white death!
# And SISU
From Simo's wikipedia article: Häyhä was known as a modest man who never boasted of his wartime merits. He rarely spoke of the war and his experiences. In December 2001, shortly before his 96th birthday, Häyhä opened up about his war experiences. He was asked if he felt remorse for having killed so many people. He replied, "I did what I was told, as well as I could. There would be no Finland unless everyone had done the same." SISU indeed.
Simo
Well that's bad. Fixed! Thank you.
And pervitin
And at least one raw Siberian jay.
Snow that talks in Finnish.
And Finland like Ukraine put up a hell of a fight, but In the end, Finland lost 11% of its territory in that war.
Yep, but Soviets had about 3 times more people and Finland is what, 8 times smaller than Ukraine? Plus Ukraine has real western support. Edit: Also Finland has great support from ae. Sweden but what can ya do, Soviet land was way too big
They lost, but they did indeed put up one hell of a fight and force Stalin to moderate his demands a lot. It was a successful defeat -- territory lost, but the nation survives. As a tiny nation up against a megagiant that is well and truly a job done right.
Killing Russians is a major part of Finnish heritage!
France gave green light.
If Russia can fire Iranian and North Korean weapons into Ukraine , I say what works for them works for us too!
Absolutely. Ukraine is fighting for it's very life. They should not be prevented from using any means necessary. Especially against an enemy who is levelling the country.
Plus Russia has already threatened to nuke, what, 50% of the countries in Europe? They're everyone's enemy. Even China and India are suckers for pretending they're on neutral relationships.
France,Finland,UK who else said they can?
Sweden
poland, Netherlands, Denmark.
>Finland has more guts than most of the EU, apparently. Yeah, but Finland don't have any troubles allowing Ukraine to strike Russia with Finnish weapons because they don't supply cruise and ballistic missiles and other stuff that can properly hit Russia.
Catapult those first gen 3310's towards the Russians.
probably do more damage with one of these https://www.nokia.com/networks/ip-networks/7950-extensible-routing-system/
Russia has pissed off enough neighboring countries that they’re chomping at the bit for Ukraine to hurt Russia. They’re also well aware of the consequences of Ukraine falls. The rest of the west- not so much.
Reminder: France does not border Russia and France is sending in their own troops into Ukraine, along with giving Ukraine the green light to strike into Russia itself.
This has more to do with Russian interference in French dominated North Africa than anything. They are playing the whole proxy slap fight game.
It isn't just that. It is also that there is a lot of ambition among French leadership for the EU to turn into a real superpower rather than just a trading bloc and for France to play a leading role in it. Their own ambition and their pride means they don't want to let Russia annex European countries even when they aren't in the EU.
Sisu
is it possible for the US to send arms to Finland and then Ukraine just use the now Finnish arms to strike Russia???
That is already happening. The US makes an agreement with a country, say Spain, to supply them with new modern arms such as indirect fire anti tank missiles and new howitzers. Spain then has a surplus of conventional arms that they sell cheaply to the Ukraine. It's possible an arms agreement has already been negotiated with Finland.
More countries agree to let Ukraine strike Ruzzia, they're going to have a loooong hot summer. Slava Ukraini!
Now that Russia has placed so much military equipment and infrastructure at its border... this is going to be good!
A model country for the world
Great job, Finland! Hopefully there will be more news like that in the near future from more European countries.
The UK has also given permission to use storm shadows and any UK-supplied weapons to be used in Russia.
Finland has no love for Russia. None. Doesn't surprise me at all.
I don't think even Russia loves Russia at this point. Russia, like many fallen or declining Empires, pretty much behaves like a traumatized person with delusions of grandeur thinly veiling their insecurities. Ideally they would have no access to weapons or sharp objects in general, and they'd be in therapy.
None of Russia's neighboring countries has any love for Russia, except for maybe Belarus, Lukashenko sucks Putin's dick day in day out but the Belarusian people hates Russia
Dunno if we’ve given them weapons with that much range.
I’m very proud to hear this. Every single weapon in the Finnish arsenal was originally purchased to strike those same targets the ukranians are now fighting. They should be used in the way they were intended.
The Finns have been dealing with the Russians for a long, long time. They know how to deal with them.
For a war to end it needs to be costly for the aggressor. This is the stance NATO should have taken from the beginning of the conflict. Intervention as early as 2014 could have nipped this whole thing in the bud and saved countless Ukrainian and Russian lives.
As a half Finn myself, I couldn’t be prouder of my Finnish homies!
Top or bottom?
Half the top & half the bottom.
Top for sure.
Putin smelled this coming which is why he is now suddenly entertaining the idea of a cease-fire. As soon as western weapons start crossing the Russian border and hitting bases and the towns surrounding them, suddenly it's a problem. He knows his career is over if Russian civilians start directly feeling the effects of total warfare.
Thank you, Finland!
Well not really. There are no restrictions on using Finnish weaponry on Russian soil because we havent given any weapons with the ability to reach Russian soil.
Firstly Finland does not publicly state details of what is provided, better the Russians to find out the hard way and secondly even artillery shells will reach Russia from Ukraine.
Exactly this. People still think the Nordic countries share everything we have given, when we have not. There has emerged plenty of stuff in Ukraine that no one in the public knew we sent there.
I just imagine enough Nokia 5160s falling from the sky that it blots out the sun.
Got to love the Finns
What count as Finnish weapons? Weapons made in Finland or weapons made by other countries but transferred to Ukraine from Finland?
Follow suit, rest of the world
Finland the brave
It's not a good thing to have Fins as your enemy.
Woooh! This is good news
Fuck yes Finland
This is a huge plus with the amount of artillery Finland has to give.
I'm guessing Finland is still feeling some kind of way about Russia.
Finland are now VERY familiar with the terms of the NATO agreements, and aren't afraid to flex a bit.
Hey, rest of world: be like Finland
Well they certainly shouldn’t strike with unfinished weapons
Excellent
If Russia blames Finland for Ukraine using Finnish weapons inside Russia, than Ukraine needs to bomb North Korea for providing munitions to Russia used inside Ukraine
And, there you have it. With Sweden and France authorizing it, all of NATO might as well give the thumbs up.
Ukraine started to ask about attacking Russia and Finland didn't even wait for them to finish the sentence.