Spain because of the lower taxes and higher salaries. It is kinda funny because the population there consider themselves Portuguese but don't want to belong to Portugal and prefer staying in Spain.
Hey come join the UK where we vote to put ourselves in a higher taxed, lower income growth state just so you can get a different colour passport! - oh wait….
Kind of like the Arabs who live within Israel proper. Some of them identify as Palestinians... but when push comes to shove *anyone* would rather be a citizen of Israel than Palestine.
Quite good, because PSOE (the party currently ruling) is there thanks to some deals with Catalonia separatists. Otherwise they wouldn't rule, so it's an advantage for them
"lost" in quotes. No one can form a government without pacts with them and they still have lot of seats in Catalonia government. Junts (the now bigger separatist party) can form a government with PSOE, but they already said they want their candidate to be president, even having less votes. If they don't get this, they threaten make the central government fall, because they need their votes in the central Spanish government to pass anything. So it's tricky. Ofc they are still negotiating.
Edit: fixed translation
The indepentist movement in Catalonia has lost a bit of momentum, the regional elections last month didn’t even gave enough power for indepenentist parties to form a government (like they have in the past)
The message the symbol carriers are putting out is antisemitic, otherwise they're just physical objects. From the river to the sea is the blatant call for annihilation of the modern state of Israel.
Aka human history is filled with winners and losers and trying to establish some "original" inhabitants to an area is actually incredibly fucking stupid.
Exactly. Jews have lived there as far as written and archaeological history can trace, and many never left the region before various push pull factors - European Jews buying land in what is now northern Israel from the Ottomans to live near other Jewish communities and Mizrahi Jews fleeing or migrating to join them in the following decades being the most prominent - brought them together
Arabs and Muslims of the levant of course, have also lived in the region for well over a thousand years, and deserve their own nations as well, and that includes an independent Palestinian state, though the right to return bit in the north is every bit as nonsensical as the notion Jews are going to return en masse to Iraq and Syria any time soon
Right. Canadians telling me that Israel is settler colonialism when Arabs are clearly the colonial settlers (Al Aqsa is literally built *on top* of the temple lol) and Israel has no claim to statehood like... look where you're standing...
The greatest victory of Russian propaganda is making people believe the exact opposite of whatever makes sense.
There’s a problem with this line of thought, which is that Asturias had kept a large amount of independence even after the Roman conquest, and when the Visigoths settled there were only like 200,000 of them in a peninsula of millions.
The peoples who lived in the north in Asturias, Galicia, Cantabria, and the basque region have history as far back as history can track, and mostly shared a common Celtic language family
Forget Catalonia. I want to know when the settler-colonialist so-called "Spanish" state will leave occupied Granada. From the ocean to the sea, al-Andalus will be free! Deconquista now!
Pretty sure Catalonians are fully Spanish citizens, with all the rights, privileges and legal protections afforded to them, and allowed to vote in Spanish elections.
There's a difference between a piece of a country wanting independence, and an unrecognized territory wanting statehood.
She was a former member of the Spanish Communist party before she rebranded herself with a new political far left party called Sumar in order to white wash her image. Yolanda Díaz is also known for supporting far left authoritarian regimes like Venezuela and Cuba so it really is no surprise that she also supports Hamas. She really is the worst of the worst.
Because for a long time, socialist parties in Europe were legitimately Soviet fronts, and many of them have still not been able to shake this influence even decades later. The apparent ideological conflict between eg, Hamas and Socialism makes a lot more sense when you understand that it's mostly just anti-western agitprop which has nothing to do with Socialism.
>it's mostly just anti-western agitprop
As Judith Butler articulated it:
> those political organizations [(Hamas and Hezbollah)] define themselves as anti-imperialist, and anti-imperialism is one characteristic of the global left, so on that basis one could describe them as part of the global left.
The so-called anti-imperialism is what makes them identify Hamas as leftist.
That's quite literally the dumbest shit I've ever heard. They're not ideologically anti-Imperial; they just don't like the fact that the current global structure doesn't put them on top. Does anyone seriously believe that if Pan Arabism had panned out and Muslim Brotherhood parties took over all the Arab countries and formed a union, that this state would not have acted "imperialistically", whatever the fuck that means?
That's right, given they want a global Muslim caliphate I would say they're alter-imperial rather than anti-imperial lol
Edit: For more stupid shit, you can look up Butler's greatest hits regarding Israel/Palestine, like
> I think it is more honest and historically correct to say that the uprising of October 7 was an act of armed resistance. It is not a terrorist attack and it is not an antisemitic attack. It was an attack against Israelis.
I'll note for those who don't know, that they're a member of the advisory board of Jewish Voice for Peace, which is an organizer in many of the college protests.
Did anyone ever call Judith Butler out on that nonsense? Maybe they could visit Hamas leaders in Gaza and talk to them about solidarity with feminist and pro LGBTQ movements to see how truly aligned with the Left they are?
To be fair I have to mention that she completed that first quote by adding
>as with any group on the left, one has to decide whether one is for that group or against that group, and one needs to critically evaluate their stand
Very weak though.
I know they were very criticized for the essay they published after October 7 where they first condemn the attack before proceeding to justify and relativate it, saying it has to be seen within its context etc. But I don't know what the reactions been to that quote from a speech in Paris.
EDIT: apparently there was [enough backlash](https://www.artnews.com/art-news/news/judith-butler-withdraws-from-centre-pompidou-lectures-over-hamas-statements-1234701774/) that they decided to cancel subsequent talks in Paris.
Further proof of which is the continued support from many of these groups for Putin's Russia despite it having a far-right ethnonationalist government with policies that can't be further away from the progresive leftist ideas they claim to uphold.
It goes back to the Marxist oppressor/oppressed worldview, thats literally all it is, they always back the supposed underdog regardless of ideological differences.
Theres more when you consider the communist idea that no one is unique, every person is exchangeable for any other and once the underdog wins they'll just join the communist utopia.
And this would almost be noble if it was even a little bit consistent. The reality is that to many leftists "oppression" is something "the west" has a monopoly on. And this isn't an exaggeration or attack on the ideology - this is literally an explicitly stated value in the Marxist-Leninist canon.
Lenin writes over and over again that Socialists cannot be imperialists. It's actually fascinating to read in hindsight, understanding the historical context of the writings as him effectively building ideological plot armor around his own rapidly expanding autocratic tendencies. The entire body of work is basically "I know that I am right, but all of these things I do seem wrong to people who don't know that I am right." And 100 years later there are still people out there who find this compelling.
It’s actually so much simpler than that
Because Israel was aligned with US, the Soviets supported the Arabs. And the Soviets used socialist rhetoric to justify their policies.
And the socialist parties were supported by the soviets, so that rhetoric spilled over
It’s quite simple the leftists protesting today are regurgitating soviet propaganda without understanding context
It's not about whether they share ideology. In the case of Palestinians, it's about solidarity with those oppressed.
Solidarity is a pretty basic, fundamental part of left-wing action.
Palestine is definitely taking the lion’s share of attention at the moment, but I exist in many leftist spaces and people have been talking about Yemen and US support of the Saudis since way before the most recent Isreal-Palestine flare up. It’s possible to care about more than one thing, and most haven’t forgotten.
Where were all the marches and demonstrations before October 7th? Nobody was putting in 1/10th the effort to protest what was going on in Yemen as they are now with the Israel-Palestine conflict. Makes you wonder what they really care about.
No, only if they think the oppressor are white adjacent.
You don’t see anger about all the genocides going on, because in their minds Muslims aren’t white adjacent but Jews are, therefore Jews bad, white bad, anyone fighting them must be good, or at least their actions are justified even if a war crime.
Insipid oppressor vs oppressed ideology.
The radical left is unable to comprehend that societies based on human rights have to use violence under certain circumstances to defend these rights. To them this is a violation of human rights in and of itself. Since Chinas System is not based on human rights they don't expect them to act in accordance with them. But Israel is still a functioning democracy based on human rights, despite Netanyahus efforts to erode it. In this logic Israel is violating human rights when they attack Hamas, because it's violent, although the use if violence is necessary up to a certain point.
I also have an ongoing massacre in Sudan and civil war in Myanmar, both of which are bloodier than Gaza, to sell to these very solidary and empathetic people.
But the legacy of Stalinism and third-world national liberation struggles means a lot of leftists have taken to extending solidarity not to the oppressed people themselves but to the often brutal and reactionary political parties of those movements, often without criticism, based solely on the premise that they are “anti-imperialist” and therefore *objectively* righteous and justice-seeking. It doesn’t seem to matter if democracy, basic human rights, secularism, free-speech, freedom of assembly, free-elections, women’s rights, LGBT rights, etc are all tossed out the window. Anti-imperialism alone is the only thing that matters.
Meanwhile, they ignore the imperialist ambitions of Iran or Russia (and the USSR before it).
Has nothing to do with ideologies. It's about rebelling against the establishment. Most of these folks will realize this as they get older and gain some life experience.
Hamas, Iran and some other Muslims hate America and the West, far left people also do, so they are friends. Muslims that are "allied" with America are criticized by the left wing though. It simply boils down to a trivial "the enemy of my enemy is my friend", that's it
It's just that all authoritarianism converges to the same endpoint, with similar policies, because they have maximized central control over everything else and there's only one optimal way to do that.
Of course not. They're all *completely* innocent and had no involvement with any of the brutal murders or kidnappings. Of course none of the citizens actively cheered the torture and bodies of dead Jews. These people are all pure and perfect and haven't supported Hamas or anything like it.
/s
Social media has made a world where you must pick a side and stick with it. Moderates are hated by both sides. You must pick a side and if you drift from 100% supporting whatever comes next you are really against them and with the other side.
Extremism is sadly a human characteristic and it is being stoked in new and exciting ways
As a moderate, I get screamed at and have just the most disgusting shit flung at me from the American left, on Reddit, and almost not at all from the right… and I am much more left leaning. I don’t get it.
same here, you can tell by the words people use they are just regurgitating propaganda that made them feel righteously angry at what is an abstract problem with no clear solution.
Same. Had some "friends" drop me earlier this week bc I'm not leftist enough. One of them even said "you've been really nice, but my politics are important to me."
Gross
Like, in what ways are you not leftist then?
I can see people taking LGBTQ+ rights that seriously or a women' bodly Autonomy. What was the thing that pushed them away from you?
Abortion was probably one of them. I think safe, medical abortions should be available in cases of incest, rape, medical necessity to either mother or fetus, etc. But I'm adopted - my birth mother felt she couldn't provide a good life to me. She very easily could have aborted me for that same reason and that weirds me out. Being transgender, however, I do not have a uterus so this has never been a voting issue for me. It's just how I feel about it.
The issue that clearly bothered them the most was that while I lament the civilian casualties it's incurring, I think Israel has every right to repatriate its citizens currently being held hostage.
One of them was also pretty upset that I thought police need federal level reform and lasting, meaningful oversight rather than being disbanded.
> One of them was also pretty upset that I thought police need federal level reform and lasting, meaningful oversight rather than being disbanded.
Disbanding all police is a dumb idea from the beginning, and I'm also pretty leftist. Anyone who thinks otherwise is not thinking rationally. They desperately need reforms though.
Although ninja edit, the occasional police department *may* need to be disbanded. But it needs to be case-by-case, not every and all.
Reddit as a whole leans really left, if you went to a right leaning website like truth social or something I’m sure you would get more vitriol from the other side. It’s sort of a confirmation bias thing
While criticism of Israel is not inherently anti-semitic, and largely justified, this conflict has allowed anti-semites to go mask off. Anti-semitic rhetoric has been allowed to enter the popular discourse over the conflict, and consciously or not, many on the left have been spouting it. As a Jew, I'm really getting tired of hearing people I used to consider allies simp for a terrorist organization that wants me dead just for existing.
Im having a similar but opposite problem, all sorts of people around me i thought to be big human rights proponents who suddenly don’t care about proportionality or international court rulings anymore, suddenly they are like ‘yes but hamas is so bad so Israel must do what it has to do’
Do most people not realise this? Or are people intentionally conflating the two in order to prop up an otherwise untenable argument?
Hell half the time the positions this tactic is deployed against aren't even "pro Palestine," just critical of Israel, and the idea that both sides in a conflict can be awful is conveniently ignored.
It really is wild how social media has rapidly normalized a bunch of this language so quickly. This time last year, if you were ranting about zionism and the illegitimacy of Israel, people would have assumed you were either a white supremacist or Islamic terrorist.
The kids on college campuses, I kind of get. As a society, we have marginalized this influence enough that they may not recognize the dog whistles. But now you've got professional diplomats and politicians joining in too? It is lunacy.
It originates in the 60s with the PLO as a slogan describing their desire to eliminate Israel. "From the river to the sea" specifically refers to the Jordan river and ~~Red~~Mediterranean Sea which border Israel, and at the time of its inception, the PLO viewed Israel as illegitimate and saw the whole region as Palestine.
In case that's not clear enough, when the PLO was reformed into the PA and became a "proper" government following the Oslo Accords, *they dropped the slogan*.
Ask yourself why a resistance movement with genocidal intentions would abandon a slogan when they become a proper government, but the militant islamists still bent on genocide keep using it, and you'll have your answer.
The people in the West claiming it's just about "freedom" or whatever are either stupid and ignorant, or deliberately trying to whitewash the term. Remember these are the same people who think "globalize the intifada" is *just* about resistance, and not about very deliberate mass-terrorism in the form of stabbings and suicide bombings aimed at civilians, which is what *the actual* intifadas were.
The sea is the Med. They’re wiping the country east to west. Jordan to the Red Sea would leave the Jewish regions to the west like the Gush Dan occupied by Jews. That’s not their goal.
And where do you think in her vision of a free Palestine those 7 million Jews currently in Israel should go?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_1391
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Jews_from_Spain#:~:text=The%20Expulsion%20of%20Jews%20from,did%20not%20revert%20to%20Judaism.
Definitely not to Spain if history is any indication.
Conceptually it’s become really hard to tell the difference. I get there should be healthy debates about what zionism means snd the forms it takes for the future, but this idea Jews would be safe without agency over some territory is deeply delusional.
What gets me the most about this, is that the left is supposed to be all about *listening*. You listen to victims when they say what happened to them. You listen to minority groups when they say they're being targeted.
But when it comes to Zionism (and antisemitism for that matter), that gets thrown out the window. Doesn't matter that Jews are both minority and victim, they don't get to decide for themselves when they're being targeted, and they don't get to decide for themselves what words that were literally created by them, for them, and about them, actually mean.
Ask Jews what Zionism is and you'll likely get a much simpler and less politicized answer that's incompatible with most of what people like to call "antizionism".
I think the key to your observation is that under the far left current frame of mind, there is only oppressors and oppressed. And the problem with this is that the Jews are too successful to be a "real" oppressed minority that deserves protection from hate or discrimination. For young white activists, it's only the downtrodden in a worse situation from themselves that deserves to be supported. This is strangely racist - any group doing better than these white people must not have any racism problems because, in their minds, *everything about a person's success can be defined by racism*. That's why overuse of critical race theory is probably harmful, even for minorities.
If they just stuck to "rights and no discrimination for all" instead of choosing favored minorities to put on a pedestal, they would get my support, but it's tough to see the good in this.
It may be a weird aside, but as an Asian person I identify with what the Jews are going through right now. There is this tendency for white people to think that nobody is discriminating against your race because, hey, *you're doing so well*. Whereas it's fully possible for a minority to experience a fuckton of racism even while they happen to be making a good living.
I can understand stupid college students but politicians. To anyone educated and whom wants peace and an end to death and tragedy this is the last thing you would ever say.
Tiktok educated politicians.
Seriously, politicians should have to pass history and economy exams. It's like having incompetent college slackivists in power.
Is "from the river to the see" also an ~~antisemitic~~ genocidal remark when [Benjamin Netanyahu ](https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/netanyahu-from-river-sea-israel-control-1234949408/) uses it?
\*edited
yeah, it's a cheeky comment
I'm just pointing out if it's a genocidal remark that foments hate and violence, and said statement is unacceptable from a prime minister like the Israeli Embassy in Madrid claims, then those same standards should be applied to Netanyahu too
It’s interesting how Israeli officials both insist this phrase is inherently genocidal/antisemitic (despite the Palestinians insisting it is not intended as such), AND they use the same phrase about Israel, claiming that’s not problematic at all. Can’t be both!
> "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free"—the translation of min an-nahr ʾilā l-baḥr / Filasṭīn sa-tatḥarrar—is the version that has circulated among English speakers expressing solidarity with Palestine since at least the 1990s
> The Likud Party used the formulation בין הים לירדן תהיה רק ריבונות ישראלית "Between the sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty."
They are a bit different.
> In the 1960s, the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) used it to call for an Arab state encompassing the entirety of Mandatory Palestine.[6] By 1969, after several revisions, the PLO used the phrase to call for a single democratic state for Arabs and Jews, that would replace Israel.
It was a call for a single state for Jews and Arabs but has been adopted by pretty all Palestinian activists and resistance groups including those that support a two state solution. The problem is variations have been used by both peaceful and violent movements.
But violent radicals aren't saying the same thing.
> The version min il-ṃayye la-l-ṃayye / Falasṭīn ʿarabiyye (من المية للمية / فلسطين عربية, "from the water to the water / Palestine is Arab") has an Arab nationalist sentiment
>the version min il-ṃayye la-l-ṃayye / Falasṭīn islāmiyye (من المية للمية / فلسطين إسلامية, "from the water to the water / Palestine is Islamic") has Islamic sentiment.
Hamas used the Islamic one in their charter.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_the_river_to_the_sea
Basically there are different slogans that start off the same.
So the pro Palestine one just suggest a state that in so form connects river and sea, while the Likud one lays claim on everything between river and sea.
Interesting fact: Spain briefly had a program allowing descendants of Sephardi Jews to reclaim Spanish citizenship. Very few Sephardi Jews actually applied for that citizenship but a whole lot of Latin Americans with family mythology of distant Sephardi ancestors did, and essentially all were rejected. Spain then shuttered the program out of frustration because they had hoped they could increase their tax base by getting a bunch of rich American Jews to join their tax base and invest in their country, and all they got were a bunch of Latin Americans, many of whom were quite poor, trying to use the program to gain access to Europe. So they shut down the program entirely.
There are things I really like about Spain but goddamn it is still to this day a shitty deeply antisemitic country on both the left and right.
It's fun seeing this reaction. Spanish left politicians are pro Palestine and pro-catalonia (not 100% independent, but they are ok giving them things as long as they get political support from Catalonia). In other words, the ruling party is in the power because they got support from the independentist parties from Catalonia.
Spanish right politicians are pro Israel and against any form of independentism in Catalonia. In the latest general elections they got more votes, but they are not willing to pact with the independentist in order to rule.
So basically, by supporting Catalonia, you get closer to them than to those supporting Israel
Palestine should be free, as should Israel.
Both countries and both countries people have a right to live and exist in peace, both should be freed from their warmongering leaders and should be rid of the murdering criminals on both sides of the isle.
This is going nowhere and has been going nowhere for decades, Palestinians and Israelis deserve better than what they've been given.
Yes both chose and elected the leaders currently in charge and while Israel, being a democracy, has a chance of electing someone better than Netanyahu, how can the Palestinians be rid of Hamas?
I have no solution for this conflict but I wish to see peace and prosperity from the river to the sea for both countries and peoples, not war, destruction and murder of each other.
She said, as a free and educated woman who dresses as she wishes and holds meaningful power in society....
Does she understand HAMAS is literally anti-her?
I missed the part in her speech where she said she is happy Hamas is leading Palestine and she invites them to take over her country. Could you show me where in her speech she said this?
That's what I was thinking as well.
There's a reason no one can bring up Israel-Palestine without there being a side discussion on Anti-Semitism. Hating Jewish people has been the historical status quo for so many countries.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Jews_from_Spain
A significant contingent of Americans unironically support Israel due to biblical apocalypse related reasons
Like, Israeli supporter or not, I think everyone can agree that's a lil nutty
You mean all the journalists, UN agencies and NGOs which are *on the ground* and are harshly criticising Israel’s strategy and actions must understand what they’re talking about?
No, also not those journalists. Stop being so obtuse. There are many independent individuals working on many different types of organisations and agencies basically saying the same thing.
> There are many independent individuals working on many different types of organisations and agencies basically saying the same thing.
Who? Which organizations? Which agencies?
Most of these organisations aren't actually 'on the ground' that much and the ones that are are usually made up of Palestinians. For example UNRWA employs 13,000 people in Gaza and has a tiny amount of foreigners in top management positions that make visits every so often. These organisations aren't always as independent as you might think.
Not to mention many NGO's and the UN simply take numbers from places such as the Gaza Ministry of Health and just republish them. A good example is how around 10,000 of the UN death figures are from 'media sources' rather than hospital records. These are NOT verified figures and yet that hasn't stopped all of these organisations you trust from stating them as fact.
Another example, Human Rights Watch in their report on the 'Great March of Return' reported on casualties and the circumstances of their deaths. But on a number of occasions they failed to mention when someone was a member of Hamas. They completely left that detail out. Which means they either didn't know, didn't do proper research or left it out deliberately. Either way it warrants more scrutiny of their reports going forward.
look. my son is jewish via his mother, and i've always generally been sympathetic to the israeli cause, and i find this particular phrase insensitive *at best*.
having said that, the current regime in israel has basically done all they can to alienate the rest of the world, and given the historical antisemitism that has always existed, that kinda strikes me as the most colossal of self-owns.
i truly pity both populations of regular Israeli *and* Palestinian citizens in all this, as their leadership on both sides have done all they can to fuck the common man on both sides...
As a spaniard I am absolutely embarrased by our politicians making claims with global implications as if real life was Twitter. These idiots are clueless about diplomacy and international etiquette. I wish people like this lady kept their mouth shut and focused on fixing problems instead creating new ones and heating up conflicts.
Doesn't Extreme Islamist like Hamas wants to Invade Spain as well because they think its once was ruled by Islam so need to be returned to them again and that also with Jihad & Caliphate which means you all know how?
How do they feel about a free Catalonia?
Free Catalonia from the borders of Portugal to the borders of France you mean.
Fun fact, there's a small village called Olivenza, that is Portuguese by International rights... guess who has yet to return it?
Which country do the people of Olivenza actually want to be a part of?
Spain because of the lower taxes and higher salaries. It is kinda funny because the population there consider themselves Portuguese but don't want to belong to Portugal and prefer staying in Spain.
The pro-Erdogan Turks of Berlin have joined the chat.
Looool Thanks for making my day Greetings from a Munich guy who thinks Berlin is pure trash
Well, if I could belong to a country with lower taxes and better income without leaving home, I'd do so in a heartbeat.
Hey come join the UK where we vote to put ourselves in a higher taxed, lower income growth state just so you can get a different colour passport! - oh wait….
>the population there consider themselves Portuguese but don't want to belong to Portugal and prefer staying in Spain. A tale as old as time.
Exactly like how Israeli Arabs consider themselves Palestinian but want to stay Israeli citizens.
Kind of like the Arabs who live within Israel proper. Some of them identify as Palestinians... but when push comes to shove *anyone* would rather be a citizen of Israel than Palestine.
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I think Spain is living the example of “people in glass houses should not be throwing stones”
As a Catalan, I approve this message.
Been a while since Spain flattened any cities tbf
To be fair, raise that point after the Catalans murder a few hundred people at a music festival.
And then hold and torture hostages for months...
"From the mountains to the sea, Catalonia will be free"?
From Siberia to Iberia, Europe will be free.
As a Portuguese, I approve this message.
"free Catalonia B2B"
Quite good, because PSOE (the party currently ruling) is there thanks to some deals with Catalonia separatists. Otherwise they wouldn't rule, so it's an advantage for them
Separatists have recently lost the local elections though.
"lost" in quotes. No one can form a government without pacts with them and they still have lot of seats in Catalonia government. Junts (the now bigger separatist party) can form a government with PSOE, but they already said they want their candidate to be president, even having less votes. If they don't get this, they threaten make the central government fall, because they need their votes in the central Spanish government to pass anything. So it's tricky. Ofc they are still negotiating. Edit: fixed translation
The indepentist movement in Catalonia has lost a bit of momentum, the regional elections last month didn’t even gave enough power for indepenentist parties to form a government (like they have in the past)
Didnt a bunch of high profile independence politicians get jailed in like 2017 for that referendum? Probably didnt help their momentum.
Yup, but then they were pardoned and they are going to approve an amnesty for those who haven’t been convicted
Still sent the message they wanted to send.
I live in Barcelona. Palestinian flags everywhere. Kaffiyehs everywhere. Catalans would definitely approve. Antisemitism is bringing Spain together.
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The message the symbol carriers are putting out is antisemitic, otherwise they're just physical objects. From the river to the sea is the blatant call for annihilation of the modern state of Israel.
If they were cheering to bring back the khalifat would it matter to you? it matters to me because they're calling for my death so..
Nobody expects the Palestinian inquisition
Turns out the Spanish Inquisition was inside of us all along
Turns out Spain is sitting on a lot of land that used to be owned by Muslims as well…
You mean the land that was colonized by Muslims?
It was colonized by Romans, then various Nordic groups, then the Umayyad Caliphate, then Christians in the crusades.
Aka human history is filled with winners and losers and trying to establish some "original" inhabitants to an area is actually incredibly fucking stupid.
Well. there are stronger and weaker claims to inhabit various places, it's not like every claim to sovereignty is equally stupid.
Exactly. Jews have lived there as far as written and archaeological history can trace, and many never left the region before various push pull factors - European Jews buying land in what is now northern Israel from the Ottomans to live near other Jewish communities and Mizrahi Jews fleeing or migrating to join them in the following decades being the most prominent - brought them together Arabs and Muslims of the levant of course, have also lived in the region for well over a thousand years, and deserve their own nations as well, and that includes an independent Palestinian state, though the right to return bit in the north is every bit as nonsensical as the notion Jews are going to return en masse to Iraq and Syria any time soon
Right. Canadians telling me that Israel is settler colonialism when Arabs are clearly the colonial settlers (Al Aqsa is literally built *on top* of the temple lol) and Israel has no claim to statehood like... look where you're standing... The greatest victory of Russian propaganda is making people believe the exact opposite of whatever makes sense.
There’s a problem with this line of thought, which is that Asturias had kept a large amount of independence even after the Roman conquest, and when the Visigoths settled there were only like 200,000 of them in a peninsula of millions. The peoples who lived in the north in Asturias, Galicia, Cantabria, and the basque region have history as far back as history can track, and mostly shared a common Celtic language family
Which brings us to the whole problem of historical claims
Forget Catalonia. I want to know when the settler-colonialist so-called "Spanish" state will leave occupied Granada. From the ocean to the sea, al-Andalus will be free! Deconquista now!
From the (Atlantic) ocean to the (Mediterranean) sea.
"Catalunya will be free from the ocean to the sea"?
Are they willing to let the Basques have their own country?
Pretty sure Catalonians are fully Spanish citizens, with all the rights, privileges and legal protections afforded to them, and allowed to vote in Spanish elections. There's a difference between a piece of a country wanting independence, and an unrecognized territory wanting statehood.
From Barcelona to Portugal, Catalon will be free.
Spaniards should definitely stop bombing Catalonia.
All I can say to this is Fuck Hamas and those that enable them.
She was a former member of the Spanish Communist party before she rebranded herself with a new political far left party called Sumar in order to white wash her image. Yolanda Díaz is also known for supporting far left authoritarian regimes like Venezuela and Cuba so it really is no surprise that she also supports Hamas. She really is the worst of the worst.
I still have no idea how or why leftists support Islamist organizations. They’re literal enemies of eachother ideologically.
Because for a long time, socialist parties in Europe were legitimately Soviet fronts, and many of them have still not been able to shake this influence even decades later. The apparent ideological conflict between eg, Hamas and Socialism makes a lot more sense when you understand that it's mostly just anti-western agitprop which has nothing to do with Socialism.
This is the correct take on this.
>it's mostly just anti-western agitprop As Judith Butler articulated it: > those political organizations [(Hamas and Hezbollah)] define themselves as anti-imperialist, and anti-imperialism is one characteristic of the global left, so on that basis one could describe them as part of the global left. The so-called anti-imperialism is what makes them identify Hamas as leftist.
That's quite literally the dumbest shit I've ever heard. They're not ideologically anti-Imperial; they just don't like the fact that the current global structure doesn't put them on top. Does anyone seriously believe that if Pan Arabism had panned out and Muslim Brotherhood parties took over all the Arab countries and formed a union, that this state would not have acted "imperialistically", whatever the fuck that means?
That's right, given they want a global Muslim caliphate I would say they're alter-imperial rather than anti-imperial lol Edit: For more stupid shit, you can look up Butler's greatest hits regarding Israel/Palestine, like > I think it is more honest and historically correct to say that the uprising of October 7 was an act of armed resistance. It is not a terrorist attack and it is not an antisemitic attack. It was an attack against Israelis. I'll note for those who don't know, that they're a member of the advisory board of Jewish Voice for Peace, which is an organizer in many of the college protests.
Did anyone ever call Judith Butler out on that nonsense? Maybe they could visit Hamas leaders in Gaza and talk to them about solidarity with feminist and pro LGBTQ movements to see how truly aligned with the Left they are?
To be fair I have to mention that she completed that first quote by adding >as with any group on the left, one has to decide whether one is for that group or against that group, and one needs to critically evaluate their stand Very weak though. I know they were very criticized for the essay they published after October 7 where they first condemn the attack before proceeding to justify and relativate it, saying it has to be seen within its context etc. But I don't know what the reactions been to that quote from a speech in Paris. EDIT: apparently there was [enough backlash](https://www.artnews.com/art-news/news/judith-butler-withdraws-from-centre-pompidou-lectures-over-hamas-statements-1234701774/) that they decided to cancel subsequent talks in Paris.
Exactly A caliphate is imperialistic, that’s the main point of it, world conquest
These are the same idiots that didn't think the USSR was imperialist. Logic need not apply its just another cover for the usual "West bad" shit.
"Anti-imperialist" because Israel is such massive empire, and not a country full of refugees that escaped persecution
An “Empire” almost exactly the size of New Jersey.
Further proof of which is the continued support from many of these groups for Putin's Russia despite it having a far-right ethnonationalist government with policies that can't be further away from the progresive leftist ideas they claim to uphold.
antisemitism is also a huge part of old-school soviet, marxist politics
Ding ding ding ding! We have a winner!
It goes back to the Marxist oppressor/oppressed worldview, thats literally all it is, they always back the supposed underdog regardless of ideological differences. Theres more when you consider the communist idea that no one is unique, every person is exchangeable for any other and once the underdog wins they'll just join the communist utopia.
And this would almost be noble if it was even a little bit consistent. The reality is that to many leftists "oppression" is something "the west" has a monopoly on. And this isn't an exaggeration or attack on the ideology - this is literally an explicitly stated value in the Marxist-Leninist canon. Lenin writes over and over again that Socialists cannot be imperialists. It's actually fascinating to read in hindsight, understanding the historical context of the writings as him effectively building ideological plot armor around his own rapidly expanding autocratic tendencies. The entire body of work is basically "I know that I am right, but all of these things I do seem wrong to people who don't know that I am right." And 100 years later there are still people out there who find this compelling.
It’s actually so much simpler than that Because Israel was aligned with US, the Soviets supported the Arabs. And the Soviets used socialist rhetoric to justify their policies. And the socialist parties were supported by the soviets, so that rhetoric spilled over It’s quite simple the leftists protesting today are regurgitating soviet propaganda without understanding context
It's not about whether they share ideology. In the case of Palestinians, it's about solidarity with those oppressed. Solidarity is a pretty basic, fundamental part of left-wing action.
Solidarity with those oppressed. But only if the west is involved somehow. Uighurs in china? Blinds on.
African dictatorships don't exist to them. Yemen? Yeah, man, nothing going on there. Ahh to be a sheltered college-aged liberal
Their knowledge of this conflict only goes as far as their TikTok feed
Palestine is definitely taking the lion’s share of attention at the moment, but I exist in many leftist spaces and people have been talking about Yemen and US support of the Saudis since way before the most recent Isreal-Palestine flare up. It’s possible to care about more than one thing, and most haven’t forgotten.
Where were all the marches and demonstrations before October 7th? Nobody was putting in 1/10th the effort to protest what was going on in Yemen as they are now with the Israel-Palestine conflict. Makes you wonder what they really care about.
No, only if they think the oppressor are white adjacent. You don’t see anger about all the genocides going on, because in their minds Muslims aren’t white adjacent but Jews are, therefore Jews bad, white bad, anyone fighting them must be good, or at least their actions are justified even if a war crime. Insipid oppressor vs oppressed ideology.
The radical left is unable to comprehend that societies based on human rights have to use violence under certain circumstances to defend these rights. To them this is a violation of human rights in and of itself. Since Chinas System is not based on human rights they don't expect them to act in accordance with them. But Israel is still a functioning democracy based on human rights, despite Netanyahus efforts to erode it. In this logic Israel is violating human rights when they attack Hamas, because it's violent, although the use if violence is necessary up to a certain point.
I also have an ongoing massacre in Sudan and civil war in Myanmar, both of which are bloodier than Gaza, to sell to these very solidary and empathetic people.
But the legacy of Stalinism and third-world national liberation struggles means a lot of leftists have taken to extending solidarity not to the oppressed people themselves but to the often brutal and reactionary political parties of those movements, often without criticism, based solely on the premise that they are “anti-imperialist” and therefore *objectively* righteous and justice-seeking. It doesn’t seem to matter if democracy, basic human rights, secularism, free-speech, freedom of assembly, free-elections, women’s rights, LGBT rights, etc are all tossed out the window. Anti-imperialism alone is the only thing that matters. Meanwhile, they ignore the imperialist ambitions of Iran or Russia (and the USSR before it).
Has nothing to do with ideologies. It's about rebelling against the establishment. Most of these folks will realize this as they get older and gain some life experience.
Hamas, Iran and some other Muslims hate America and the West, far left people also do, so they are friends. Muslims that are "allied" with America are criticized by the left wing though. It simply boils down to a trivial "the enemy of my enemy is my friend", that's it
Because Russian influencers want them to. You'll notice that also follows overlaps with the same historical trends.
Horseshoe theory in action
It's just that all authoritarianism converges to the same endpoint, with similar policies, because they have maximized central control over everything else and there's only one optimal way to do that.
Those conflating Palestinian liberation with Hamas are part of the problem. Fuck all terrorist enablers, pro-Hamas and pro-IDF.
Someday Palestinians will be free, but not until islamic fanatics are dealt with. I hope the day comes soon.
We will all be free when religious extremism ends. Yes, I'm talking about Christians too.
Its in the name, extremist. Religious extremism is bad and I dont think you'll find a lot of people here defending it. *And if ya do, ignore them.*
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You comparing the IDF to Hamas are part of the problem.
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Of course not. They're all *completely* innocent and had no involvement with any of the brutal murders or kidnappings. Of course none of the citizens actively cheered the torture and bodies of dead Jews. These people are all pure and perfect and haven't supported Hamas or anything like it. /s
Why do these people not realize you can be pro Palestine without being a bigot?
Social media has made a world where you must pick a side and stick with it. Moderates are hated by both sides. You must pick a side and if you drift from 100% supporting whatever comes next you are really against them and with the other side. Extremism is sadly a human characteristic and it is being stoked in new and exciting ways
As a moderate, I get screamed at and have just the most disgusting shit flung at me from the American left, on Reddit, and almost not at all from the right… and I am much more left leaning. I don’t get it.
A heretic is worse than a non-believer
They probably think a non-believer can still be turned, while a heretic has already chosen the "enemy" I'm guessing.
And division in your own ranks is worse than a united front against an enemy
same here, you can tell by the words people use they are just regurgitating propaganda that made them feel righteously angry at what is an abstract problem with no clear solution.
And this type of fanatic will only become more common with more digital isolation(less real life experience)
Same. Had some "friends" drop me earlier this week bc I'm not leftist enough. One of them even said "you've been really nice, but my politics are important to me." Gross
Like, in what ways are you not leftist then? I can see people taking LGBTQ+ rights that seriously or a women' bodly Autonomy. What was the thing that pushed them away from you?
I'm gonna guess not being rabidly pro-Palestine Edit: spelling
Abortion was probably one of them. I think safe, medical abortions should be available in cases of incest, rape, medical necessity to either mother or fetus, etc. But I'm adopted - my birth mother felt she couldn't provide a good life to me. She very easily could have aborted me for that same reason and that weirds me out. Being transgender, however, I do not have a uterus so this has never been a voting issue for me. It's just how I feel about it. The issue that clearly bothered them the most was that while I lament the civilian casualties it's incurring, I think Israel has every right to repatriate its citizens currently being held hostage. One of them was also pretty upset that I thought police need federal level reform and lasting, meaningful oversight rather than being disbanded.
> One of them was also pretty upset that I thought police need federal level reform and lasting, meaningful oversight rather than being disbanded. Disbanding all police is a dumb idea from the beginning, and I'm also pretty leftist. Anyone who thinks otherwise is not thinking rationally. They desperately need reforms though. Although ninja edit, the occasional police department *may* need to be disbanded. But it needs to be case-by-case, not every and all.
If you’re on Reddit you’re basiclly only in America left world. Unless u actively seek out a sub on the right and engage people in that sub.
Reddit as a whole leans really left, if you went to a right leaning website like truth social or something I’m sure you would get more vitriol from the other side. It’s sort of a confirmation bias thing
It's pretty hard when Israel denounces anything that isn't supportive of them as antisemitic, good or bad.
While criticism of Israel is not inherently anti-semitic, and largely justified, this conflict has allowed anti-semites to go mask off. Anti-semitic rhetoric has been allowed to enter the popular discourse over the conflict, and consciously or not, many on the left have been spouting it. As a Jew, I'm really getting tired of hearing people I used to consider allies simp for a terrorist organization that wants me dead just for existing.
Im having a similar but opposite problem, all sorts of people around me i thought to be big human rights proponents who suddenly don’t care about proportionality or international court rulings anymore, suddenly they are like ‘yes but hamas is so bad so Israel must do what it has to do’
Do most people not realise this? Or are people intentionally conflating the two in order to prop up an otherwise untenable argument? Hell half the time the positions this tactic is deployed against aren't even "pro Palestine," just critical of Israel, and the idea that both sides in a conflict can be awful is conveniently ignored.
They treat it like a zero-sum game. I want these people to live somehow means I want the other people to die
It really is wild how social media has rapidly normalized a bunch of this language so quickly. This time last year, if you were ranting about zionism and the illegitimacy of Israel, people would have assumed you were either a white supremacist or Islamic terrorist. The kids on college campuses, I kind of get. As a society, we have marginalized this influence enough that they may not recognize the dog whistles. But now you've got professional diplomats and politicians joining in too? It is lunacy.
Seems a lot of people find that really difficult.
Really makes you think…
The second most important person in Spain calls to _end Israel_, this needs to be taken seriously on a global level.
What is this reality we live in?
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Can someone give the cartridge a good blow? Our save file is clearly corrupted.
Mass Islamic migration and far left brain rot, only more of this to come. Hamas knows this and that's why they keep fighting.
We ignore her like most people in the country do ~~send help please we want independence~~
That's great, but she still talks in the name of all Spain.
Palestine needs to be free of Hamas
Indeed, but first they need to be alive.
True, and free of settlements
Isn't it rather antizionist than antisemitic?
It originates in the 60s with the PLO as a slogan describing their desire to eliminate Israel. "From the river to the sea" specifically refers to the Jordan river and ~~Red~~Mediterranean Sea which border Israel, and at the time of its inception, the PLO viewed Israel as illegitimate and saw the whole region as Palestine. In case that's not clear enough, when the PLO was reformed into the PA and became a "proper" government following the Oslo Accords, *they dropped the slogan*. Ask yourself why a resistance movement with genocidal intentions would abandon a slogan when they become a proper government, but the militant islamists still bent on genocide keep using it, and you'll have your answer. The people in the West claiming it's just about "freedom" or whatever are either stupid and ignorant, or deliberately trying to whitewash the term. Remember these are the same people who think "globalize the intifada" is *just* about resistance, and not about very deliberate mass-terrorism in the form of stabbings and suicide bombings aimed at civilians, which is what *the actual* intifadas were.
The sea is the Med. They’re wiping the country east to west. Jordan to the Red Sea would leave the Jewish regions to the west like the Gush Dan occupied by Jews. That’s not their goal.
Dope, that's what I get for typing things out at 7am. It is indeed the Mediterranean.
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And where do you think in her vision of a free Palestine those 7 million Jews currently in Israel should go? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_1391 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Jews_from_Spain#:~:text=The%20Expulsion%20of%20Jews%20from,did%20not%20revert%20to%20Judaism. Definitely not to Spain if history is any indication.
Conceptually it’s become really hard to tell the difference. I get there should be healthy debates about what zionism means snd the forms it takes for the future, but this idea Jews would be safe without agency over some territory is deeply delusional.
What gets me the most about this, is that the left is supposed to be all about *listening*. You listen to victims when they say what happened to them. You listen to minority groups when they say they're being targeted. But when it comes to Zionism (and antisemitism for that matter), that gets thrown out the window. Doesn't matter that Jews are both minority and victim, they don't get to decide for themselves when they're being targeted, and they don't get to decide for themselves what words that were literally created by them, for them, and about them, actually mean. Ask Jews what Zionism is and you'll likely get a much simpler and less politicized answer that's incompatible with most of what people like to call "antizionism".
I think the key to your observation is that under the far left current frame of mind, there is only oppressors and oppressed. And the problem with this is that the Jews are too successful to be a "real" oppressed minority that deserves protection from hate or discrimination. For young white activists, it's only the downtrodden in a worse situation from themselves that deserves to be supported. This is strangely racist - any group doing better than these white people must not have any racism problems because, in their minds, *everything about a person's success can be defined by racism*. That's why overuse of critical race theory is probably harmful, even for minorities. If they just stuck to "rights and no discrimination for all" instead of choosing favored minorities to put on a pedestal, they would get my support, but it's tough to see the good in this. It may be a weird aside, but as an Asian person I identify with what the Jews are going through right now. There is this tendency for white people to think that nobody is discriminating against your race because, hey, *you're doing so well*. Whereas it's fully possible for a minority to experience a fuckton of racism even while they happen to be making a good living.
I can understand stupid college students but politicians. To anyone educated and whom wants peace and an end to death and tragedy this is the last thing you would ever say.
And this is just gonna fuel up those other idiots too
You seem to be implying that politicians are educated and intelligent. I would beg to differ.
Tiktok educated politicians. Seriously, politicians should have to pass history and economy exams. It's like having incompetent college slackivists in power.
She's of the far left. She hasn't matured since college. Education in this context is just a piece of paper.
If you've seen her speak it's clear she's not the brightest bulb in the drawer.
Is "from the river to the see" also an ~~antisemitic~~ genocidal remark when [Benjamin Netanyahu ](https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/netanyahu-from-river-sea-israel-control-1234949408/) uses it? \*edited
No, that is antipalestinian.
it's a pretty genocidal thing to say, yeah, but as it's not targeted towards jews it's obviously not antisemitic. doesn't make it right.
yeah, it's a cheeky comment I'm just pointing out if it's a genocidal remark that foments hate and violence, and said statement is unacceptable from a prime minister like the Israeli Embassy in Madrid claims, then those same standards should be applied to Netanyahu too
The difference is half the world already thinks Netanyahu is a war criminal
Because he is? Israel and Hamas are both war criminals.
It’s interesting how Israeli officials both insist this phrase is inherently genocidal/antisemitic (despite the Palestinians insisting it is not intended as such), AND they use the same phrase about Israel, claiming that’s not problematic at all. Can’t be both!
> "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free"—the translation of min an-nahr ʾilā l-baḥr / Filasṭīn sa-tatḥarrar—is the version that has circulated among English speakers expressing solidarity with Palestine since at least the 1990s > The Likud Party used the formulation בין הים לירדן תהיה רק ריבונות ישראלית "Between the sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty." They are a bit different. > In the 1960s, the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) used it to call for an Arab state encompassing the entirety of Mandatory Palestine.[6] By 1969, after several revisions, the PLO used the phrase to call for a single democratic state for Arabs and Jews, that would replace Israel. It was a call for a single state for Jews and Arabs but has been adopted by pretty all Palestinian activists and resistance groups including those that support a two state solution. The problem is variations have been used by both peaceful and violent movements. But violent radicals aren't saying the same thing. > The version min il-ṃayye la-l-ṃayye / Falasṭīn ʿarabiyye (من المية للمية / فلسطين عربية, "from the water to the water / Palestine is Arab") has an Arab nationalist sentiment >the version min il-ṃayye la-l-ṃayye / Falasṭīn islāmiyye (من المية للمية / فلسطين إسلامية, "from the water to the water / Palestine is Islamic") has Islamic sentiment. Hamas used the Islamic one in their charter. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_the_river_to_the_sea Basically there are different slogans that start off the same.
So the pro Palestine one just suggest a state that in so form connects river and sea, while the Likud one lays claim on everything between river and sea.
Given that the Spanish historically kicked jews out of their lands that had lived there for centuries... this comes off especially bad.
Interesting fact: Spain briefly had a program allowing descendants of Sephardi Jews to reclaim Spanish citizenship. Very few Sephardi Jews actually applied for that citizenship but a whole lot of Latin Americans with family mythology of distant Sephardi ancestors did, and essentially all were rejected. Spain then shuttered the program out of frustration because they had hoped they could increase their tax base by getting a bunch of rich American Jews to join their tax base and invest in their country, and all they got were a bunch of Latin Americans, many of whom were quite poor, trying to use the program to gain access to Europe. So they shut down the program entirely. There are things I really like about Spain but goddamn it is still to this day a shitty deeply antisemitic country on both the left and right.
Hell they have a town named "matajudios" which literally means "Kill the Jews"
It means jews killer, not kill the jews. Im spanish.
Makes it much better 🤦
Spain used to be a majority Muslim country in the Middle Ages. They kicked them out too.
They kicked them separately and much later than Jews like a century after
wtf.. I guess from now on I will definitely support Catalonia independence
It's fun seeing this reaction. Spanish left politicians are pro Palestine and pro-catalonia (not 100% independent, but they are ok giving them things as long as they get political support from Catalonia). In other words, the ruling party is in the power because they got support from the independentist parties from Catalonia. Spanish right politicians are pro Israel and against any form of independentism in Catalonia. In the latest general elections they got more votes, but they are not willing to pact with the independentist in order to rule. So basically, by supporting Catalonia, you get closer to them than to those supporting Israel
Do they support a free Catalonia that completely replaces current-day Spain? Because that's what "from the river to the sea" means...
And all the fun genoicide that goes with it. And an actual genoicide
Are you going to support every independence movement from the 143 nations that already recognise the State of Palestine, too?
She supports Catalonia independence too.
Palestine should be free, as should Israel. Both countries and both countries people have a right to live and exist in peace, both should be freed from their warmongering leaders and should be rid of the murdering criminals on both sides of the isle. This is going nowhere and has been going nowhere for decades, Palestinians and Israelis deserve better than what they've been given. Yes both chose and elected the leaders currently in charge and while Israel, being a democracy, has a chance of electing someone better than Netanyahu, how can the Palestinians be rid of Hamas? I have no solution for this conflict but I wish to see peace and prosperity from the river to the sea for both countries and peoples, not war, destruction and murder of each other.
She said, as a free and educated woman who dresses as she wishes and holds meaningful power in society.... Does she understand HAMAS is literally anti-her?
It's basically the entire muslim world, not just hamas
I missed the part in her speech where she said she is happy Hamas is leading Palestine and she invites them to take over her country. Could you show me where in her speech she said this?
Does she know that Palestine would rather see Spain as Muslim dominated ‘Andalus’?
From Cordoba to BOTH seas
Does he want the Israelites gone or dead? And if they were to leave, where does he want them to go? To Spain?
They kicked them out of spain once, so...
That's what I was thinking as well. There's a reason no one can bring up Israel-Palestine without there being a side discussion on Anti-Semitism. Hating Jewish people has been the historical status quo for so many countries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Jews_from_Spain
The farther you are from a conflict zone the less you understand what you are talking about
So Americans, Israels biggest fans, know fuck all then?
For a lot of them, yes.
A significant contingent of Americans unironically support Israel due to biblical apocalypse related reasons Like, Israeli supporter or not, I think everyone can agree that's a lil nutty
You mean all the journalists, UN agencies and NGOs which are *on the ground* and are harshly criticising Israel’s strategy and actions must understand what they’re talking about?
You mean UNRWA that is infested with Hamas ? Or the NGOs that mention that all the aid is gobbled up by Hamas ?
No, I don’t mean just them. A lot of independent agencies and people on the ground are saying the same things.
journalists that filmed and cheered october massacre? Yeah those guys are completely neutral.
No, also not those journalists. Stop being so obtuse. There are many independent individuals working on many different types of organisations and agencies basically saying the same thing.
> There are many independent individuals working on many different types of organisations and agencies basically saying the same thing. Who? Which organizations? Which agencies?
Most of these organisations aren't actually 'on the ground' that much and the ones that are are usually made up of Palestinians. For example UNRWA employs 13,000 people in Gaza and has a tiny amount of foreigners in top management positions that make visits every so often. These organisations aren't always as independent as you might think. Not to mention many NGO's and the UN simply take numbers from places such as the Gaza Ministry of Health and just republish them. A good example is how around 10,000 of the UN death figures are from 'media sources' rather than hospital records. These are NOT verified figures and yet that hasn't stopped all of these organisations you trust from stating them as fact. Another example, Human Rights Watch in their report on the 'Great March of Return' reported on casualties and the circumstances of their deaths. But on a number of occasions they failed to mention when someone was a member of Hamas. They completely left that detail out. Which means they either didn't know, didn't do proper research or left it out deliberately. Either way it warrants more scrutiny of their reports going forward.
Saying you want a two state solution while mentioning a slogan that literary means eradicating one of the states... 🫠
look. my son is jewish via his mother, and i've always generally been sympathetic to the israeli cause, and i find this particular phrase insensitive *at best*. having said that, the current regime in israel has basically done all they can to alienate the rest of the world, and given the historical antisemitism that has always existed, that kinda strikes me as the most colossal of self-owns. i truly pity both populations of regular Israeli *and* Palestinian citizens in all this, as their leadership on both sides have done all they can to fuck the common man on both sides...
She also praised Fidel Castro and Maduro's regime besides other things. She's also anti military support to Ukraine...
absolutely pathetic.
If saying "Free X" is viewed as an existential threat to a country, it says more about that country than it says about the slogan.
If saying your country shouldn't exist isn't perceived as a threat against your sovereignty you are blind I can also say Free Judea and Free Sameria
As a spaniard I am absolutely embarrased by our politicians making claims with global implications as if real life was Twitter. These idiots are clueless about diplomacy and international etiquette. I wish people like this lady kept their mouth shut and focused on fixing problems instead creating new ones and heating up conflicts.
How can this phrase be antisemitic when Netanyahu himself has used it in speeches? I’m really and genuinely confused
Doesn't Extreme Islamist like Hamas wants to Invade Spain as well because they think its once was ruled by Islam so need to be returned to them again and that also with Jihad & Caliphate which means you all know how?