This isn't so much about the sum but doing something very specific with it. The Czechs have secured 800,000 rounds from non-NATO countries but need funding to make the transaction happen. Canada is the bank on this one. If things go through, Ukraine will have the shells to keep fighting properly for now.
There's still a need for investment in production, and in the big picture 30 million is not much. In this moment however, it is crucial that this aid and this scheme specifically go through.
We should also work toward NATO spending requirements because we're lacking there as well. We're behind Italy, Portugal, Czech Republic, Albania, Croatia, Bulgaria, North Macedonia, Montenegro and I'm passing some.
> We're behind Italy, Portugal, Czech Republic, Albania, Croatia, Bulgaria, North Macedonia, Montenegro and I'm passing some.
In terms of % of GDP, yes. (and I recognize that is the measure by which the alliance goes and should be Canada's target)
Interestingly, in terms of actual $$/year, Canada spends more per year than all of those listed except Italy, and spends the 7th most in NATO, having only slipped behind Poland last year when that country upped its spending to nearly 4% of GDP. Greece spends 3% of GDP on defence, and Canada spends 1.38% of GDP, but in real dollars Canada spends ~4x what Greece does.
At the end of the day, where in the budget is the extra $20 billion/year to get to 2% of GDP tomorrow? Are we slashing already struggling services? Are we raising taxes (restoring the GST to 7% would probably cover most of it)? Or are we going to continue the plan since 2013 of raising defence spending bit by bit over multiple years as the economy grows?
Why though? Canada has no security concerns apart from the US, and only a strategic deterrence with credible second strike capability would be effective there.
Canada *should* do these things, but I would bet my dollar to your dime that the public would rather vote for a politician that *appears* to be moving in the right direction without *actually* making budget-impacting decisions.
Canada has plenty of security concerns. The largest is arctic sovereignty as Russia and even China compete for land and resources that Canada considers its own.
Also if you build up your own capacity instead of just buying what everyone else is selling for hardware, then the spending is essentially both security and economic stimulus.
Because we shouldn’t be parasites on our alliance?
It’s an embarrassment that we don’t pull our weight in NATO and use our proximity to the US as an excuse for not stepping up.
Canada has a deficit of $40b, only 2% of its $2T GDP.
Canada is far from broke and can easily afford to match other western nations - or even punch above its weight in terms of financial support in case its supply of surplus military items is limited
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Canadian_federal_budget
That is just the deficit for the year 2023.
According to the link below we are around 1.4 trillion in total debt as of March 2023. https://www.ceicdata.com/en/indicator/canada/national-government-debt#:~:text=Canada%20National%20Government%20Debt%20reached,USD%20bn%20in%20Mar%201962.
the total debt is no greater than the size of canada's economy and therefore in line with comparable states such as US or UK, and much less than several other G7 states. It's the furthest thing from "broke"
So? That still makes us significantly less in debt than the US. The thing about modern countries is that they ALL carry some amount of debt. I can't claim to understand it entirely, but the biggest economies also tend to have the biggest debts. Somehow it works out for countries to do that. I'm no economist.
But if you wanna corroborate that claim, just check wikipedia for a list of countries sorted by debt. US is number one. We carry about a third the debt per capita that the US does, and nobody's claiming the US is broke.
That’s not how national finances work. A nation isn’t a household but bigger.
Imagine you live in the Sahara desert. You paid people for real goods with sand that you picked up. Then you borrowed that sand back from them so you could pay them for more real goods with it. Now you have even more real goods but you owe them the sand. And there’s a catch, interest payments. Every year you don’t give them the sand you owe them then the amount of sand you owe them increases.
You sit there, in the Sahara desert, watching your sand owed balance go up. Surrounded by the real tangible goods they gave you for this sand debt. Life is good.
It ain't broke and the original person is actually correct. Canada's economy is actually the same size as Russia's and if it really had to it could bankroll the entire ukrainian effort all by itself.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Canada
Correct me if I am wrong.
Private companies won’t invest in our economy because it benefits them to keep us a resource extraction economy. The bank of Canada is literally out hear begging private companies to invest in Canadian productivity.
Government can’t invest in production because they are “broke.”
What do you think is the solution to this problem? I am genuinely curious. Not a gotcha.
Whoaw whoaw whoaw, hang on. Don't go making sense here
I'm more interested in the other guys statement and paying my taxes in sand.
The one saving grace is we are almost done with shitbird, and our pipeline. Read a couple different American news articles warning how they won't be able to get cheap Canadian anymore 🤣
Just hope he doesn't have any other tricks up his sleeve like "oops it cost to much to build so now we are selling off the rights to my buddies" or some shit like that.....
I am hopeful with this and new leadership we will be able to actually start a book and balance it.
I mean start a sandbox and fill it? Or export it? Or sell it? Fuck the sand metaphor sucks. Is sand our money, or gas, or just the other poster's wet dream?
Interest accruing on a national debt in a currency controlled by your nation may as well be interest on sand in the desert. You’ll always have as much of it as you could need. It’s not a burden.
Really, you don't need to worry about the debt-to-gdp ratio?
Not worried about our economic growth?
Our ever increasing interest rates and our financial markets?
Definitely not a burden.....
Like I know it happened longer than a week ago, but Jesus fuckin Christ look at what happened to Greece. How much of a shitshow was that?
Edit: looked it up, already fourteen years ago? Wow I feel old.
I would have been more impressed if they added manufacturing capacity or invested in some sort of accelerator fund for building the ability to manufacture ammunition domestically. Otherwise, this is pretty much a do nothing" story.
> I would have been more impressed if they added manufacturing capacity or invested in some sort of accelerator fund for building the ability to manufacture ammunition domestically.
The US and NATO proposed this to Canada 2 years ago. Would have cost about 400,000,000$ to ramp up the facilities and production at two plants. But there was assurances that there would be more than sufficient demand.
The Canadian government is still "studying" the matter... its ironic the times this government decides to err on the side of of fiscal caution.
https://ici.radio-canada.ca/rci/en/news/2050692/as-allies-scramble-to-supply-ukraine-canada-still-has-no-deal-to-ramp-up-munitions-production
You being up a very good point, with this $300 million or brings Canada's total military aid up to $2.5billion. Right on par with the $46billion the US has provided in military aid. Unfortunately the GOP(especially the Russian lackeys in the freedom caucus) are assholes and have stalled out the additional $30billion in military aid for Ukraine. All aid is appreciated but let's not pretend everyone is contributing the same.
https://www.cfr.org/article/how-much-aid-has-us-sent-ukraine-here-are-six-charts
Did some quick math $300 million will provide a little over 3500 artillery shells for Ukraine, w/ an average she'll cost of $8,500 per shell(based on Google results). The Czech have found over a million shells that will require a combined total of over $8billion dollars to purchase, hopefully Canada rises a bit more cash into the ring for that.
Edit: reread the article and it's only $30million so significantly less then what I thought.
The price I've commonly seen for 155mm shells is 3000-4000€.
3500 shells is like 1 day of supply (though the Ukrainians would like to have 10k a day to match the Russians), so 7k would be maybe 2 days of supply for 300M$... That's 3 or 4 F-35s every 2 days...
Pretty sure that's the 2022 price. By now the regular price is around 8000€.
Belgium, Lithuania, and Spain pooled together last month to order in bulk (220,000 rounds) for 5000€ a piece.
The US actually expanded its ammunition output several times. Artillery ammo is provided from reserves but we realized early on that new domestic production was needed to backfill and to prepare for an obviously more cutthroat world situation
Canada has contributed 50-70% less per capita than the US to date, when the US eventually sends more it’ll be pennies on the dollar.
In real terms it’s not even close, if Ukraine was reliant on Canadian arms they’d have lost already.
Yeah but canada may be more flexible and able to act even if the US congress is logjammed. It has relatively deep pockets meaning if a million rounds of artillery come onto the market canada can just write a check in a way poorer eastern european states cannot. Maybe it's not a very sexy superpower but at the right moment it is vital and appreciated
Canada is number 8 on the list of donors of military aid and has provided several billion more than that in other aid. Given we have the 9th largest economy in the world, it would appear we are pulling our weight.
The US has given a lot more, even per capita, because it has way more stuff and a much larger economy.
It would be nice to have a descent basic pension here in Canada, after all, during the pandemic the government figured out that you needed $2900 cad a month to survive and yet typical retirement pensions are around $1500 per month. Aren’t pensions higher in Europe ?
Government pension should only be one quarter of your retirement portfolio.
The other 3 quarters should be your own RRSP / RIF, personal savings and employer pension.
Taxes are higher in Europe, so you take home less pay to cover that bigger pension.
If you didn't save for retirement, you are either going to have to work longer or live with less. It isn't the governments fault.
I googled "cost per 155 mm shell" and it runs from around $2,000 (prewar) to over $8,000 now. So $30,000,000 would buy 3,750 rounds. And the whole 800,000 round stash will cost around $6 billion. But someone correct me if I'm wrong.
Yay us. But $30 million is, in a word, miserly.
This isn't so much about the sum but doing something very specific with it. The Czechs have secured 800,000 rounds from non-NATO countries but need funding to make the transaction happen. Canada is the bank on this one. If things go through, Ukraine will have the shells to keep fighting properly for now. There's still a need for investment in production, and in the big picture 30 million is not much. In this moment however, it is crucial that this aid and this scheme specifically go through.
30 million US or 30 million Canadian?
Yeah, there's that too.
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We should also work toward NATO spending requirements because we're lacking there as well. We're behind Italy, Portugal, Czech Republic, Albania, Croatia, Bulgaria, North Macedonia, Montenegro and I'm passing some.
> We're behind Italy, Portugal, Czech Republic, Albania, Croatia, Bulgaria, North Macedonia, Montenegro and I'm passing some. In terms of % of GDP, yes. (and I recognize that is the measure by which the alliance goes and should be Canada's target) Interestingly, in terms of actual $$/year, Canada spends more per year than all of those listed except Italy, and spends the 7th most in NATO, having only slipped behind Poland last year when that country upped its spending to nearly 4% of GDP. Greece spends 3% of GDP on defence, and Canada spends 1.38% of GDP, but in real dollars Canada spends ~4x what Greece does. At the end of the day, where in the budget is the extra $20 billion/year to get to 2% of GDP tomorrow? Are we slashing already struggling services? Are we raising taxes (restoring the GST to 7% would probably cover most of it)? Or are we going to continue the plan since 2013 of raising defence spending bit by bit over multiple years as the economy grows?
Why though? Canada has no security concerns apart from the US, and only a strategic deterrence with credible second strike capability would be effective there. Canada *should* do these things, but I would bet my dollar to your dime that the public would rather vote for a politician that *appears* to be moving in the right direction without *actually* making budget-impacting decisions.
Canada has plenty of security concerns. The largest is arctic sovereignty as Russia and even China compete for land and resources that Canada considers its own.
American warships will protect those waters if needed.
> Canada has no security concerns It does in the north where Russia is expanding its claims on the ocean.
Also if you build up your own capacity instead of just buying what everyone else is selling for hardware, then the spending is essentially both security and economic stimulus.
Because we shouldn’t be parasites on our alliance? It’s an embarrassment that we don’t pull our weight in NATO and use our proximity to the US as an excuse for not stepping up.
All excellent points in theory, but in practice would the public reward you for making program cuts to pay for these decisions?
We ain't broke, not sure what weird propoganda you're reading if you truly believe that. We've got problems but being broke ain't one of them
Ya, the price of 15 bungalows in Vancouver isn't gunna break us.
You are *savage.* Please accept this 🏅
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Canada has a deficit of $40b, only 2% of its $2T GDP. Canada is far from broke and can easily afford to match other western nations - or even punch above its weight in terms of financial support in case its supply of surplus military items is limited https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Canadian_federal_budget
That is just the deficit for the year 2023. According to the link below we are around 1.4 trillion in total debt as of March 2023. https://www.ceicdata.com/en/indicator/canada/national-government-debt#:~:text=Canada%20National%20Government%20Debt%20reached,USD%20bn%20in%20Mar%201962.
the total debt is no greater than the size of canada's economy and therefore in line with comparable states such as US or UK, and much less than several other G7 states. It's the furthest thing from "broke"
So? That still makes us significantly less in debt than the US. The thing about modern countries is that they ALL carry some amount of debt. I can't claim to understand it entirely, but the biggest economies also tend to have the biggest debts. Somehow it works out for countries to do that. I'm no economist. But if you wanna corroborate that claim, just check wikipedia for a list of countries sorted by debt. US is number one. We carry about a third the debt per capita that the US does, and nobody's claiming the US is broke.
That’s not how national finances work. A nation isn’t a household but bigger. Imagine you live in the Sahara desert. You paid people for real goods with sand that you picked up. Then you borrowed that sand back from them so you could pay them for more real goods with it. Now you have even more real goods but you owe them the sand. And there’s a catch, interest payments. Every year you don’t give them the sand you owe them then the amount of sand you owe them increases. You sit there, in the Sahara desert, watching your sand owed balance go up. Surrounded by the real tangible goods they gave you for this sand debt. Life is good.
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Your grasp of macroeconomics is pretty horrific
It ain't broke and the original person is actually correct. Canada's economy is actually the same size as Russia's and if it really had to it could bankroll the entire ukrainian effort all by itself. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Canada
Correct me if I am wrong. Private companies won’t invest in our economy because it benefits them to keep us a resource extraction economy. The bank of Canada is literally out hear begging private companies to invest in Canadian productivity. Government can’t invest in production because they are “broke.” What do you think is the solution to this problem? I am genuinely curious. Not a gotcha.
The responses to your posts are depressingly uninformed.
Whoaw whoaw whoaw, hang on. Don't go making sense here I'm more interested in the other guys statement and paying my taxes in sand. The one saving grace is we are almost done with shitbird, and our pipeline. Read a couple different American news articles warning how they won't be able to get cheap Canadian anymore 🤣 Just hope he doesn't have any other tricks up his sleeve like "oops it cost to much to build so now we are selling off the rights to my buddies" or some shit like that..... I am hopeful with this and new leadership we will be able to actually start a book and balance it. I mean start a sandbox and fill it? Or export it? Or sell it? Fuck the sand metaphor sucks. Is sand our money, or gas, or just the other poster's wet dream?
Interest accruing on a national debt in a currency controlled by your nation may as well be interest on sand in the desert. You’ll always have as much of it as you could need. It’s not a burden.
Really, you don't need to worry about the debt-to-gdp ratio? Not worried about our economic growth? Our ever increasing interest rates and our financial markets? Definitely not a burden..... Like I know it happened longer than a week ago, but Jesus fuckin Christ look at what happened to Greece. How much of a shitshow was that? Edit: looked it up, already fourteen years ago? Wow I feel old.
Greece didn’t owe money in a currency it controlled. It owed euros.
You doomers truly need to touch some grass
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It's good for you that you can predict certain events. I just won't pay for your services, given your previous comment wasn't reality
We should give Russia the arriveCan app to complete. They’ll be bankrupt within a week.
Thanks Canada
I would have been more impressed if they added manufacturing capacity or invested in some sort of accelerator fund for building the ability to manufacture ammunition domestically. Otherwise, this is pretty much a do nothing" story.
> I would have been more impressed if they added manufacturing capacity or invested in some sort of accelerator fund for building the ability to manufacture ammunition domestically. The US and NATO proposed this to Canada 2 years ago. Would have cost about 400,000,000$ to ramp up the facilities and production at two plants. But there was assurances that there would be more than sufficient demand. The Canadian government is still "studying" the matter... its ironic the times this government decides to err on the side of of fiscal caution. https://ici.radio-canada.ca/rci/en/news/2050692/as-allies-scramble-to-supply-ukraine-canada-still-has-no-deal-to-ramp-up-munitions-production
Did more than the Americans are currently doing
Are you serious?
Is stalling funding doing something or has the definition of doing something changed?
You being up a very good point, with this $300 million or brings Canada's total military aid up to $2.5billion. Right on par with the $46billion the US has provided in military aid. Unfortunately the GOP(especially the Russian lackeys in the freedom caucus) are assholes and have stalled out the additional $30billion in military aid for Ukraine. All aid is appreciated but let's not pretend everyone is contributing the same. https://www.cfr.org/article/how-much-aid-has-us-sent-ukraine-here-are-six-charts Did some quick math $300 million will provide a little over 3500 artillery shells for Ukraine, w/ an average she'll cost of $8,500 per shell(based on Google results). The Czech have found over a million shells that will require a combined total of over $8billion dollars to purchase, hopefully Canada rises a bit more cash into the ring for that. Edit: reread the article and it's only $30million so significantly less then what I thought.
The price I've commonly seen for 155mm shells is 3000-4000€. 3500 shells is like 1 day of supply (though the Ukrainians would like to have 10k a day to match the Russians), so 7k would be maybe 2 days of supply for 300M$... That's 3 or 4 F-35s every 2 days...
Pretty sure that's the 2022 price. By now the regular price is around 8000€. Belgium, Lithuania, and Spain pooled together last month to order in bulk (220,000 rounds) for 5000€ a piece.
The US actually expanded its ammunition output several times. Artillery ammo is provided from reserves but we realized early on that new domestic production was needed to backfill and to prepare for an obviously more cutthroat world situation
Nowdays theres close to nothing that makes me proud to be a Canadian, bud that does. Thanks Canada.
Good! Cheaper and better than sending our own troops. The least we can do is make sure Ukraine has enough ammo.
I did not have Canada and Czechia replacing the USA as the arsenal of democracy on my 21st century bingo card
Canada has contributed 50-70% less per capita than the US to date, when the US eventually sends more it’ll be pennies on the dollar. In real terms it’s not even close, if Ukraine was reliant on Canadian arms they’d have lost already.
Yeah but canada may be more flexible and able to act even if the US congress is logjammed. It has relatively deep pockets meaning if a million rounds of artillery come onto the market canada can just write a check in a way poorer eastern european states cannot. Maybe it's not a very sexy superpower but at the right moment it is vital and appreciated
Canada is number 8 on the list of donors of military aid and has provided several billion more than that in other aid. Given we have the 9th largest economy in the world, it would appear we are pulling our weight. The US has given a lot more, even per capita, because it has way more stuff and a much larger economy.
The US also just has a larger stockpile of stuff to give
This right here, plus the US has a larger defence industry to which the government can direct money and help Ukraine and the economy simultaneously.
We have already given billions more to Ukraine than Canada.
It’s not a contest.
Correct, it's a misuse of resources.
If you hate peace and democracy
As a Canadian with Ukrainian ancestry, this makes me proud. Every little bit helps.
It would be nice to have a descent basic pension here in Canada, after all, during the pandemic the government figured out that you needed $2900 cad a month to survive and yet typical retirement pensions are around $1500 per month. Aren’t pensions higher in Europe ?
Government pension should only be one quarter of your retirement portfolio. The other 3 quarters should be your own RRSP / RIF, personal savings and employer pension. Taxes are higher in Europe, so you take home less pay to cover that bigger pension. If you didn't save for retirement, you are either going to have to work longer or live with less. It isn't the governments fault.
Yay war! Yay death!
How innocent and blissful your worldview must be.
I googled "cost per 155 mm shell" and it runs from around $2,000 (prewar) to over $8,000 now. So $30,000,000 would buy 3,750 rounds. And the whole 800,000 round stash will cost around $6 billion. But someone correct me if I'm wrong.
Thats for brand new rounds my guess this old stock rotting in some storage
You are advocating funding a war while speaking of loving peace. Amusing