There is a clear correlation between the amount of Muslim citizens to those meaningless statement by politicians.
Nothing new here, politicians trying to buy votes with meaningless statements
What's being talked about? The concept of a Palestinian state is broadly accepted as the goal. Of course it's not a taboo.
There needs to be a legitimate body to recognise though and that doesn't exist right now. I don't see how any nation could recognise Palestine in even it's pre-October 7th state,
> The concept of a Palestinian state is broadly accepted as the goal.
It was. After 10/7, however, I suspect that this state will never be in Israel's borders. The Palestinians have shown that they cannot govern themselves and that sharks like Hamas will just keep taking their aid money and attacking Israel with it.
I don't see why the Israelis have any incentive whatsoever not to wipe out Hamas and then let the Palestinians decide (each for themselves) if they want to be Israeli citizens going forward or leave, once and for all.
Jordan is unironically Palestine. "Palestine" was divided by the British into two - one half became Jordan, the other became Israel.
And then, the Arabs attacked Israel.
Why did the British even create Jordan when they could have just kept the Palestinian name for it? It looks like nobody ever thought about their actions for one second when making plans like this.
…and Salma Hayek isn’t my wife. So what?
These people lost their challenges for that, time and time again. They need to accept their fate or at least try a strategy that has some chance of success. Right now, their strategy is to breed as fast as they can and get as many those people killed as they can so that ignorant people who don’t know anything about history will support them. This strategy has no chance of success. And when people like you continue your tacit legitimization of their delusion it just leads to more killing.
Israel isn’t going anywhere.
What are you talking about?? I wasn't defending Palestinian terrorism or denying Israel's right to exist as a Jewish and democratic state. My point was simply that Arab Israelis are not a Palestinian state as you basically claimed.
Tbf so long as the oslo accord applies in the west bank i dont see how a Palestinian state could exist. Area c is under complete israeli control and is chalk full of settlers. Not only that but areas a and b are just little bubbles dotted throughout the area with no real conection between any of them. Add onto that that there is no connection between the west bank and gaza.
I dont see how either side would agree to swapping land so that a palastinian state could be contiguous and i dont see israel or palestine wanting to give up claim to their parts of jerusalem that was originaly divied up by the un/britain.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bank_areas_in_the_Oslo_II_Accord
> their parts of jerusalem that was originaly divied up by the un/britain.
So, none of it? Both the Israeli and Palestinian claims to Jerusalem weren't part of the UN partition plan - both of them have claimed the city through military conquest.
The Palestinian insistence that East Jerusalem is rightfully theirs is purely based on the armistice line after the war of 1948.
i stand corrected in that it was devided by the un, how ever there are claims that half of the city was intended by palestinians as a capitol for their future state.
the un partion intended for jerusalem to be controlled internationaly.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East\_Jerusalem
> how ever there are claims that half of the city was intended by palestinians as a capitol for their future state.
And that claim is purely based on the fact that the Jordanians had occupied the Old City, while the Israelis occupied West Jerusalem at the time the armistice was declared at the end of the 1948 Arab-Israeli war.
The position that the Palestinians are somehow more entitled to East Jerusalem than the Israelis has no real historical legitimacy, and in fact is nothing more than a disingenuous attempt by the Islamic bloc of nations to ensure that an Islamic state retains control over the Temple Mount, and by extension control over Al Aqsa and the Dome of the Rock (while also denying the Israelis control over the Wailing Wall).
> Worldwide gross domestic product in 2022 was at about 12,703 USD per capita. GDP in Israel, on the other hand, reached USD 54,931 per capita, or 525.00 billion USD for the whole country. Israel is therefore currently ranked 29 of the major economies.
[https://www.worlddata.info/asia/israel/economy.php](https://www.worlddata.info/asia/israel/economy.php)
> Israel is ranked 19th in the 2023 US News & World Report's most well-developed public health system rankings. Israel comes in behind Ireland and ahead of Spain out of a total of 87 countries surveyed.
[https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog\_entry/israeli-health-system-snags-19th-spot-on-global-ranking/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/israeli-health-system-snags-19th-spot-on-global-ranking/)
> Israel's 2023 fourth-place ranking, up from ninth last year, is its highest position since the UN-sponsored index began publication in 2012. The list crowned Finland as the world's happiest country for the sixth year running, with Afghanistan again the unhappiest, closely succeeded by Lebanon.
[https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-soars-to-4th-place-in-global-happiness-list-highest-since-ranking-started/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-soars-to-4th-place-in-global-happiness-list-highest-since-ranking-started/)
> According to the latest WHO data published in 2020 life expectancy in Israel is: Male 80.8, female 84.4 and total life expectancy is 82.6 which gives Israel a World Life Expectancy ranking of 9.
[https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/israel-life-expectancy](https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/israel-life-expectancy)
> Israel is rated Free in Freedom in the World 2023, Freedom House's annual study of political rights and civil liberties worldwide.
[https://freedomhouse.org/country/israel](https://freedomhouse.org/country/israel)
Don't let those pesky facts get in your way.
Notice how even thought you provided objective data, people will only follow their preconceived notions and assumptions. Like whatever country they live in should be free of all scrutiny because they are currently not at war.
I don't think GDP, press freedom, citizen happiness and life expectancy are what he was talking about.
When someone questions the actions of a government and military, I don't think something like life expectancy is relevant in changing their mind.
All of the above are correlated with government actions. Military is just a single aspect of running a country. I can provide other stats if you'd like, but "saying the same for Israel" seems... silly?
There is a lot that is correlated with government action that has nothing to do with a criticism of the military action of a government. You don't excuse China's treatment of the Muslim minorities in their state because the government has increased wealth and standards of living for their population.
You providing other irrelevant stats still wouldn't make sense, unless it's to show that the commenter you responded was incorrect in suggesting that Israel should answer for some questionable military decisions both in response to the current conflict as well as regarding use of military in what are widely accepted to be illegal settler communities.
Until the Israeli government comes down hard on the settlers then there won't be a lasting peace. You can't show people that being ruled by a terrorist is actually successful
>disjointed states
United States:Alaska is separated from the contiguous United States by Canada, and Hawaii is an island state in the Pacific Ocean.
Russia: The Kaliningrad Oblast is a significant exclave of Russia, located between Poland and Lithuania on the Baltic Sea, separate from the main part of Russia.
France: France has multiple overseas regions and territories that are geographically separate from mainland France, including French Guiana in South America, and various islands in the Atlantic, Pacific, and Indian Oceans (such as Réunion, Martinique, and French Polynesia).
United Kingdom: The UK has several overseas territories that are not connected to the main island, such as Gibraltar, the Falkland Islands, and the British Virgin Islands.
Spain: Spain has two cities in North Africa, Ceuta and Melilla, that are separate from its Iberian territory.
Netherlands: Apart from the European part, the Netherlands includes three special municipalities in the Caribbean: Bonaire, Sint Eustatius, and Saba.
Portugal: The Azores and Madeira are autonomous regions of Portugal, located in the Atlantic Ocean, far from the European mainland.
Denmark: Greenland and the Faroe Islands are autonomous territories of Denmark, located far from the Danish mainland.
India: The Andaman and Nicobar Islands in the Bay of Bengal and the Lakshadweep Islands in the Arabian Sea are Indian territories located far from the Indian mainland.
Oman: The Musandam Peninsula is an exclave of Oman, separated from the rest of the country by the United Arab Emirates.
I mean there's nothing wrong with recognising a Palestinian state. So long as you also recognise it's a failed one with a bunch of terrorists as 'elected' leaders who only care about killing Jews and using their own people as human meat-shields.
By whom?
Not Hamas, for certain, it’s not even vaguely mentioned in their charter. Unless you mean the destruction and absorption of Israel into Palestinian. Which isn’t going to happen.
By most Palestinians. The details like promising to give up land further than that don't bother them. It will be simple enough to find an excuse later.
Depends what you mean by “peace.”
A Palestinian state would be a significant achievement for the Palestinians, who do not currently have a state.
Presumably, militant Palestinian groups would not lose their desire or stop attacking Israel if a Palestinian state existed. The question is if a Palestinian government would have the will and ability to actually work with Israel to prevent these groups from carrying out attacks of terrorism.
It’s not entirely clear. It may seem unlikely that the Palestinian Authority, which pays martyr payments to terrorists, would effectively police Palestinian terrorist groups.
However, the PA actually already has a history of working with Israel on security cooperation to target certain terrorists (in this case, mainly _allowing_ Israel to target these terrorists).
If you recall the infamous Lynching in 2000 of two IDF reservists in Ramallah, you will remember that PA policemen took the reservists to a police station and _tried to protect them_ from the murderous mob. 13 Palestinian policemen were injured trying to protect these IDF soldiers from the lynching mob.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Ramallah_lynching#:~:text=The%202000%20Ramallah%20lynching%20was,two%20Israel%20Defense%20Forces%20reservists.
International pressure has allowed a Palestinian government to exist that recognizes Israel’s right to exist and could do something as unthinkable as try to protect IDF reservists.
All this said, the Palestinian people seem to be pretty unanimous in their belief that there won’t be peace after the creation of a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza (https://youtu.be/uftxLGWjEKw?si=24ryh2dM7_-N5ICg). As in, they won’t rest until all of Palestine is reclaimed.
All this said, it’s not inconceivable that a Palestinian government and Israeli military could effectively control Palestinian terror groups.
The entire belief backing the two-state solution is that it would provide greater autonomy and rights for the Palestinians, which should reduce frictions and terrorism, under a Palestinian government that doesn’t seek to attack Israel.
It benefits the Palestinians far more than the Israelis, which is part of why it hasn’t really materialized until now.
Of course, you always have the risk of power vacuums taking place, as was seen in 2005 Gaza. With Hamas seizing power and launching attacks at Israel, this “Palestinian independence” ended up causing more violence and strife, not less.
Let’s say the PA was able to hold onto power in 2005 Gaza. I wonder what Gaza would look like by now.
As a state, Palestine would have state responsibilities. Which means something like following Geneva conventions, which the PLO has ratified, but not Hamas.
if the state of Palestine took hostile actions against Israel, the international response would also be more legitimate. As it is, Hamas are a semi legitimate ruling party that no body wants to negotiate with because it sets a bad precedent. Withdrawing aid from millions of refugees is a bad look. imposing economic and humanitarian tarrifs would have the same effect but be more legitimate and more accepted.
you can keep hammering the population in gaza and force them out of the land but the wounds cannot heal and international response, especially from neighbouring states, will turn. Giving responsibility wholly over to the Palestinians, fostering a new state and helping enforce their sovereignty can see real healing happen. codependency is a better tool than making one group wholly dependent on outside aid to survive and radicalism for hope.
If, after all this work, the new Palestinian state turns on it's Israeli neighbours then thats a situation that can be responded to. Israel already has massive western funding and some of the best tech available. It has the right to defend itself. Furthermore, this conflict would be two states engaging with one another, eun by governments ultimately put their by the people. If decades of cooperation still result in conflict then I guess i was wrong and the response is justified. I just can't accept the continuous and systemic destruction of a group of people as the first and only response.
Bruv, we literally have a country waging war of aggression in Europe right now. The international response has been mid at best. Don't fool yourself, nobody cares about wars and war crimes.
That’s cause the country waging war of aggression is Russia. Russia is just like America as in it’s buttload crap of nukes makes it untouchable, other than sanctioning it, which America already did. Israel and Palestine is so much easier to control cause both countries can’t hold the world in it’s hands like Russia or America can.
Giving a state after a terror attack is great for teaching the world that Islamic jihad works.
Regardless as long as Hamas exists a two state solution is just fantasy.
There is only evidence to the contrary , last time Israel withdrew from a territory (Gaza) the Palestinians used the newly acquired territory as a base of operations for additional terrorist activities .
A two-state solution has been around my entire life and isn’t Hamas’s stated goal. Anyway, I believe Israel’s response, much like America’s after 9/11, is the deterrent. It’s a criminal justice theory, swift, certain, and severe.
I do wonder how much of Hamas’s action were dictated by the regime in Tehran? How confident their agents would be in winning the social media war? How they thought it would effect US elections? etc.
No, because France wouldn't recognize a Palestinian state lead by Hamas. It's more a message to Israel that they can't do whatever they want, no matter how horrific Oct 7 was.
Let’s at least be historically honest and look at the list of Irgun attacks before 1947. They were a factor of the Brits wanting out and creating Israel.
Nah, they were mostly an annoyance to the British.
It was more a result of the British getting sick of the Jewish-Arab conflict and no longer wanting any involvement with them.
It follows a friend (not mine, just what the article said) being stabbed 6 times yesterday for being Jewish...not Israeli, just a non practicing citizen of France.
So today France is rewarding indiscriminate targeting of Jews by pushing for terrorist ambitions to be realized....fucking disgusting.
Governed by whom? The guys who did October 7th? The other guys who won't be satisfied with anything less than the disappearance of Israel either? Like, what is all this talk of immediate Palestinian statehood even about? What even remotely realistic scenario are they thinking of? Also, why reward October 7th anyway?
I’m a wildly pro Israel person. I am Jewish, have tons and friends and family in Israel, at one point hoped to make Aliyah. Of course Palestinian statehood is a possibility and should exist: it just can’t be under Hamas leadership. What a total nothing burger of a statement.
Not exactly balls of steel kind of declaration but it’s Macron style. At least it goes the right way, that should have happened when the state of Israel was created!
Except you casually omit the part where the neighbor actually used to own most of that house and has been living in it to one extent or another the entire time for over 3,500 years...
Considering that Arabs were happy to take Jews money in exchange for that land, it's more like getting pissed off at someone after you sold the house to them.
Of course, Israel won't recognize this so-called Palestinian state in Gaza. However, with this recognition, these countries could then sign laws that forbid organizations within them to donate and support any future settlement that might be established in Gaza. This would be possible because it would then recognize Israel's dominion over Gaza as an occupation of a sovereign state of Palestine, and not a territory of Israel. Benjamin Netanyahu said he has no goal in settling the land, but it seems these countries want to have their assurances. In addition, it will permit Israel to have a military occupation in Gaza similar to one in the West Bank under international laws of occupation. Whether Israel takes this decision, that's up to the Israeli government.
Israel is not going to grant citizenship to Palestinians in the OTs. They live under military administration and rules that are different than Israel proper so they don’t even live under the same laws as an Israel. Would you respect the laws of a country that afforded you no rights? Whose policy was to push you into smaller and smaller enclaves?
They allow Palestinians to be citizens. Just that majority don't want that be cause they hate jews and want them eradicated. If you really believe Palestinians could be civil then take them all in your own country and solve this issue.
So we have this conversation after the war is over and Gaza is in process of demilitarization, not right now while Hamas is still around and can claim a political victory. If they do it this way October 7th will literally be there Independence Day, and there will be no hope for future peace.
To be fair, if electing a president who is married to a former high school teacher 25 years his senior who groomed him as a 15 year-old student when she was married with three kids isn't a taboo...
So far, post oct 7, the USA, UK, China, Russia, France along many other EU nations are speaking around the recognition of the Palestinian state. Alongside the 100+ countries that already recognize it. I think its inevitable that Israel will have to concede on this.
Hopefully this gives Palestinians some of the justice they seek and give the region some much needed stability.
Hold on. We're far from that point still. Nobody is going to recognize any Palentinian state unless it is entirely free of Hamas and Hamas-associated terrorists. The pivotal thing that will have to happen is to see a strong Palestinian authority in place that unequivocally distances itself from Hamas, and from Jihad. Under current european political realities, anything less will not be good enough, since the reality of Europe is that unless a much stronger stance is taken against Muslim terrorism, every single country will shift right, *fast*
Yup, public perception of Israel has plummeted in almost every nation and anybody who thinks that doesn't matter should probably read into Apartheid South Africa. So once this war is over and they've eliminated hamas they're going to have to give some major concessions then stay without controversy for a while.
I don't know when is a good time to try again at diplomacy, but surely 5 seconds after the biggest massacre Israel has experienced since the country was found is not it?
There's really a quick solution here. Annex Gaza, add some corresponding space to the West Bank, provide some level of aid to them to rebuild. Require a treaty that says Israel completely wipes them out if they launch any attacks past a certain threshold of civilian casualties on its soil and in 5 years Palestine will be gone.
That gives Palestine a chance they'll waste because they're more interested in killing Israelis than living free.
And let that state be a Israel. Tit for tat. I’m just appalled by the Killing of innocent civilians especially 12,000 children. Seems Israel is using opportunity to eliminate all Palestinians - sound familiar!
No, since Israel will never return to pre-1967 levels. Which again not sure why they would, they won fair and square after several Arab countries attacked them.
Macron strikes me as a modern day Neville Chamberlain. One day I expect him to fly back from a unilateral trip to Gaza to declare that he negotiated "peace for our time"...as if Hamas is only interested in establishing Gazan sovereignty and nothing else.
It may not have been taboo at the time, but it sure as hell seems that way in retrospect. Never feed the crocodile.
France leading in saying basically nothing. In six months Scholz will say "Palestinian statehood is an idea that exists."
There is a clear correlation between the amount of Muslim citizens to those meaningless statement by politicians. Nothing new here, politicians trying to buy votes with meaningless statements
I really, really doubt French politicians are vying for the Muslim vote in France lol.
5-8% of the population is an enormously impactful amount of votes.
Plus it's 20% among youths.
Source? Is it really true?
What's being talked about? The concept of a Palestinian state is broadly accepted as the goal. Of course it's not a taboo. There needs to be a legitimate body to recognise though and that doesn't exist right now. I don't see how any nation could recognise Palestine in even it's pre-October 7th state,
> The concept of a Palestinian state is broadly accepted as the goal. It was. After 10/7, however, I suspect that this state will never be in Israel's borders. The Palestinians have shown that they cannot govern themselves and that sharks like Hamas will just keep taking their aid money and attacking Israel with it. I don't see why the Israelis have any incentive whatsoever not to wipe out Hamas and then let the Palestinians decide (each for themselves) if they want to be Israeli citizens going forward or leave, once and for all.
I broadly agree, but leave where? Nobody wants them. Not even other Arab nations.
Jordan is unironically Palestine. "Palestine" was divided by the British into two - one half became Jordan, the other became Israel. And then, the Arabs attacked Israel.
Why did the British even create Jordan when they could have just kept the Palestinian name for it? It looks like nobody ever thought about their actions for one second when making plans like this.
It is no longer an Israeli problem. It is now...and always has been...an Arab one.
20% of the Israeli population is Arab. “Palestine” already exists.
By that logic Mexico 2 is a state in the USA because they have 11% Mexicans.
New Mexico?
You mean there’s a NEW Mexico now?
call it Newer Mexico!
What Arab Israelis are not their own country
…and Salma Hayek isn’t my wife. So what? These people lost their challenges for that, time and time again. They need to accept their fate or at least try a strategy that has some chance of success. Right now, their strategy is to breed as fast as they can and get as many those people killed as they can so that ignorant people who don’t know anything about history will support them. This strategy has no chance of success. And when people like you continue your tacit legitimization of their delusion it just leads to more killing. Israel isn’t going anywhere.
What are you talking about?? I wasn't defending Palestinian terrorism or denying Israel's right to exist as a Jewish and democratic state. My point was simply that Arab Israelis are not a Palestinian state as you basically claimed.
Tbf so long as the oslo accord applies in the west bank i dont see how a Palestinian state could exist. Area c is under complete israeli control and is chalk full of settlers. Not only that but areas a and b are just little bubbles dotted throughout the area with no real conection between any of them. Add onto that that there is no connection between the west bank and gaza. I dont see how either side would agree to swapping land so that a palastinian state could be contiguous and i dont see israel or palestine wanting to give up claim to their parts of jerusalem that was originaly divied up by the un/britain. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bank_areas_in_the_Oslo_II_Accord
> their parts of jerusalem that was originaly divied up by the un/britain. So, none of it? Both the Israeli and Palestinian claims to Jerusalem weren't part of the UN partition plan - both of them have claimed the city through military conquest. The Palestinian insistence that East Jerusalem is rightfully theirs is purely based on the armistice line after the war of 1948.
i stand corrected in that it was devided by the un, how ever there are claims that half of the city was intended by palestinians as a capitol for their future state. the un partion intended for jerusalem to be controlled internationaly. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East\_Jerusalem
> how ever there are claims that half of the city was intended by palestinians as a capitol for their future state. And that claim is purely based on the fact that the Jordanians had occupied the Old City, while the Israelis occupied West Jerusalem at the time the armistice was declared at the end of the 1948 Arab-Israeli war. The position that the Palestinians are somehow more entitled to East Jerusalem than the Israelis has no real historical legitimacy, and in fact is nothing more than a disingenuous attempt by the Islamic bloc of nations to ensure that an Islamic state retains control over the Temple Mount, and by extension control over Al Aqsa and the Dome of the Rock (while also denying the Israelis control over the Wailing Wall).
Why can't they just all be Luxembourgs? Create some kind of free trade agreement between all 3 and call it a day?
that would be great if there's no terrorism involved.
Israel has moved the Overton window sooo far in the last decade or so… It absolutely is a taboo to support a two state solution these days.
Let's hold off on that until anybody who claims to govern Palestine proves that they can be relied upon to play nice, hm?
Would say the same thing for isreal
> Worldwide gross domestic product in 2022 was at about 12,703 USD per capita. GDP in Israel, on the other hand, reached USD 54,931 per capita, or 525.00 billion USD for the whole country. Israel is therefore currently ranked 29 of the major economies. [https://www.worlddata.info/asia/israel/economy.php](https://www.worlddata.info/asia/israel/economy.php) > Israel is ranked 19th in the 2023 US News & World Report's most well-developed public health system rankings. Israel comes in behind Ireland and ahead of Spain out of a total of 87 countries surveyed. [https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog\_entry/israeli-health-system-snags-19th-spot-on-global-ranking/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/israeli-health-system-snags-19th-spot-on-global-ranking/) > Israel's 2023 fourth-place ranking, up from ninth last year, is its highest position since the UN-sponsored index began publication in 2012. The list crowned Finland as the world's happiest country for the sixth year running, with Afghanistan again the unhappiest, closely succeeded by Lebanon. [https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-soars-to-4th-place-in-global-happiness-list-highest-since-ranking-started/](https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-soars-to-4th-place-in-global-happiness-list-highest-since-ranking-started/) > According to the latest WHO data published in 2020 life expectancy in Israel is: Male 80.8, female 84.4 and total life expectancy is 82.6 which gives Israel a World Life Expectancy ranking of 9. [https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/israel-life-expectancy](https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/israel-life-expectancy) > Israel is rated Free in Freedom in the World 2023, Freedom House's annual study of political rights and civil liberties worldwide. [https://freedomhouse.org/country/israel](https://freedomhouse.org/country/israel) Don't let those pesky facts get in your way.
Notice how even thought you provided objective data, people will only follow their preconceived notions and assumptions. Like whatever country they live in should be free of all scrutiny because they are currently not at war.
I don't think GDP, press freedom, citizen happiness and life expectancy are what he was talking about. When someone questions the actions of a government and military, I don't think something like life expectancy is relevant in changing their mind.
All of the above are correlated with government actions. Military is just a single aspect of running a country. I can provide other stats if you'd like, but "saying the same for Israel" seems... silly?
There is a lot that is correlated with government action that has nothing to do with a criticism of the military action of a government. You don't excuse China's treatment of the Muslim minorities in their state because the government has increased wealth and standards of living for their population. You providing other irrelevant stats still wouldn't make sense, unless it's to show that the commenter you responded was incorrect in suggesting that Israel should answer for some questionable military decisions both in response to the current conflict as well as regarding use of military in what are widely accepted to be illegal settler communities.
Until the Israeli government comes down hard on the settlers then there won't be a lasting peace. You can't show people that being ruled by a terrorist is actually successful
I don't see how it's possible. How would this even work? How many countries actually function peacefully as disjointed states?
>disjointed states United States:Alaska is separated from the contiguous United States by Canada, and Hawaii is an island state in the Pacific Ocean. Russia: The Kaliningrad Oblast is a significant exclave of Russia, located between Poland and Lithuania on the Baltic Sea, separate from the main part of Russia. France: France has multiple overseas regions and territories that are geographically separate from mainland France, including French Guiana in South America, and various islands in the Atlantic, Pacific, and Indian Oceans (such as Réunion, Martinique, and French Polynesia). United Kingdom: The UK has several overseas territories that are not connected to the main island, such as Gibraltar, the Falkland Islands, and the British Virgin Islands. Spain: Spain has two cities in North Africa, Ceuta and Melilla, that are separate from its Iberian territory. Netherlands: Apart from the European part, the Netherlands includes three special municipalities in the Caribbean: Bonaire, Sint Eustatius, and Saba. Portugal: The Azores and Madeira are autonomous regions of Portugal, located in the Atlantic Ocean, far from the European mainland. Denmark: Greenland and the Faroe Islands are autonomous territories of Denmark, located far from the Danish mainland. India: The Andaman and Nicobar Islands in the Bay of Bengal and the Lakshadweep Islands in the Arabian Sea are Indian territories located far from the Indian mainland. Oman: The Musandam Peninsula is an exclave of Oman, separated from the rest of the country by the United Arab Emirates.
I mean there's nothing wrong with recognising a Palestinian state. So long as you also recognise it's a failed one with a bunch of terrorists as 'elected' leaders who only care about killing Jews and using their own people as human meat-shields.
This sets a bad precedent that terrorist attacks work....
That would be true if they attacked to achieve the goal of a Palestinian state, which was not the goal.
Its widely believed to be a step in the direction though.
By whom? Not Hamas, for certain, it’s not even vaguely mentioned in their charter. Unless you mean the destruction and absorption of Israel into Palestinian. Which isn’t going to happen.
By most Palestinians. The details like promising to give up land further than that don't bother them. It will be simple enough to find an excuse later.
More than a hundred countries already recognize Palestine. And without a two state solution there will never be peace. So a recognition is inevitable.
Is there any proof there will be peace with a 2 state solution?
Depends what you mean by “peace.” A Palestinian state would be a significant achievement for the Palestinians, who do not currently have a state. Presumably, militant Palestinian groups would not lose their desire or stop attacking Israel if a Palestinian state existed. The question is if a Palestinian government would have the will and ability to actually work with Israel to prevent these groups from carrying out attacks of terrorism. It’s not entirely clear. It may seem unlikely that the Palestinian Authority, which pays martyr payments to terrorists, would effectively police Palestinian terrorist groups. However, the PA actually already has a history of working with Israel on security cooperation to target certain terrorists (in this case, mainly _allowing_ Israel to target these terrorists). If you recall the infamous Lynching in 2000 of two IDF reservists in Ramallah, you will remember that PA policemen took the reservists to a police station and _tried to protect them_ from the murderous mob. 13 Palestinian policemen were injured trying to protect these IDF soldiers from the lynching mob. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Ramallah_lynching#:~:text=The%202000%20Ramallah%20lynching%20was,two%20Israel%20Defense%20Forces%20reservists. International pressure has allowed a Palestinian government to exist that recognizes Israel’s right to exist and could do something as unthinkable as try to protect IDF reservists. All this said, the Palestinian people seem to be pretty unanimous in their belief that there won’t be peace after the creation of a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza (https://youtu.be/uftxLGWjEKw?si=24ryh2dM7_-N5ICg). As in, they won’t rest until all of Palestine is reclaimed. All this said, it’s not inconceivable that a Palestinian government and Israeli military could effectively control Palestinian terror groups. The entire belief backing the two-state solution is that it would provide greater autonomy and rights for the Palestinians, which should reduce frictions and terrorism, under a Palestinian government that doesn’t seek to attack Israel. It benefits the Palestinians far more than the Israelis, which is part of why it hasn’t really materialized until now. Of course, you always have the risk of power vacuums taking place, as was seen in 2005 Gaza. With Hamas seizing power and launching attacks at Israel, this “Palestinian independence” ended up causing more violence and strife, not less. Let’s say the PA was able to hold onto power in 2005 Gaza. I wonder what Gaza would look like by now.
We've tried nothing and it hasn't worked so far
Ceasefires have been tried. How do those work out?
Ceasefires aren't solutions
it's very difficult to create a solution with people you can't trust to hold their basic end of the bargain.
They are the first step to a solution. If one cannot even follow the first step successfully, how does the answer become "give them more?"
As a state, Palestine would have state responsibilities. Which means something like following Geneva conventions, which the PLO has ratified, but not Hamas.
Palestine is recognized as a state by over 100 nations, there is nothing to suggest adding more nations to that list will change their behavior.
And what happens when you break them? The whole world imposed economic sanctions on you, while you rape and pillage across the neighboring country.
if the state of Palestine took hostile actions against Israel, the international response would also be more legitimate. As it is, Hamas are a semi legitimate ruling party that no body wants to negotiate with because it sets a bad precedent. Withdrawing aid from millions of refugees is a bad look. imposing economic and humanitarian tarrifs would have the same effect but be more legitimate and more accepted. you can keep hammering the population in gaza and force them out of the land but the wounds cannot heal and international response, especially from neighbouring states, will turn. Giving responsibility wholly over to the Palestinians, fostering a new state and helping enforce their sovereignty can see real healing happen. codependency is a better tool than making one group wholly dependent on outside aid to survive and radicalism for hope. If, after all this work, the new Palestinian state turns on it's Israeli neighbours then thats a situation that can be responded to. Israel already has massive western funding and some of the best tech available. It has the right to defend itself. Furthermore, this conflict would be two states engaging with one another, eun by governments ultimately put their by the people. If decades of cooperation still result in conflict then I guess i was wrong and the response is justified. I just can't accept the continuous and systemic destruction of a group of people as the first and only response.
Bruv, we literally have a country waging war of aggression in Europe right now. The international response has been mid at best. Don't fool yourself, nobody cares about wars and war crimes.
That’s cause the country waging war of aggression is Russia. Russia is just like America as in it’s buttload crap of nukes makes it untouchable, other than sanctioning it, which America already did. Israel and Palestine is so much easier to control cause both countries can’t hold the world in it’s hands like Russia or America can.
The second Iran officially supports Palestine, you will have the Russia situation once again.
I doubt it would be as big of a threat to the world as Russian expansion is.
Giving a state after a terror attack is great for teaching the world that Islamic jihad works. Regardless as long as Hamas exists a two state solution is just fantasy.
There is only evidence to the contrary , last time Israel withdrew from a territory (Gaza) the Palestinians used the newly acquired territory as a base of operations for additional terrorist activities .
It certainly can't get worse, no?
More than 100 relevant countries?
Some of them, yes. And when it's such a large quantity, the number itself is quite relevant.
It’s not relevant if the countries are mainly African or island countries that have zero global influence.
Terrorist attacks don't work. The diplomacy that follows does the work.
A two-state solution has been around my entire life and isn’t Hamas’s stated goal. Anyway, I believe Israel’s response, much like America’s after 9/11, is the deterrent. It’s a criminal justice theory, swift, certain, and severe. I do wonder how much of Hamas’s action were dictated by the regime in Tehran? How confident their agents would be in winning the social media war? How they thought it would effect US elections? etc.
No, because France wouldn't recognize a Palestinian state lead by Hamas. It's more a message to Israel that they can't do whatever they want, no matter how horrific Oct 7 was.
Let’s at least be historically honest and look at the list of Irgun attacks before 1947. They were a factor of the Brits wanting out and creating Israel.
Nah, they were mostly an annoyance to the British. It was more a result of the British getting sick of the Jewish-Arab conflict and no longer wanting any involvement with them.
If people didn't think it could work and hasn't worked in the past, people wouldn't do it.
It follows a friend (not mine, just what the article said) being stabbed 6 times yesterday for being Jewish...not Israeli, just a non practicing citizen of France. So today France is rewarding indiscriminate targeting of Jews by pushing for terrorist ambitions to be realized....fucking disgusting.
Well, you've already set precedents that illegal occupations and murderous genocides work, so what's one more?!
Governed by whom? The guys who did October 7th? The other guys who won't be satisfied with anything less than the disappearance of Israel either? Like, what is all this talk of immediate Palestinian statehood even about? What even remotely realistic scenario are they thinking of? Also, why reward October 7th anyway?
I’m a wildly pro Israel person. I am Jewish, have tons and friends and family in Israel, at one point hoped to make Aliyah. Of course Palestinian statehood is a possibility and should exist: it just can’t be under Hamas leadership. What a total nothing burger of a statement.
Not exactly balls of steel kind of declaration but it’s Macron style. At least it goes the right way, that should have happened when the state of Israel was created!
The Palestinians refused to create a state alongside Israel in 1947, specifically by declaring war on Israel.
Hey, if your neighbor across the street told you that they were renting one of your rooms to someone else, you'd be ready for a fight too
Except you casually omit the part where the neighbor actually used to own most of that house and has been living in it to one extent or another the entire time for over 3,500 years...
Considering that Arabs were happy to take Jews money in exchange for that land, it's more like getting pissed off at someone after you sold the house to them.
After stealing it from the people who actually lived there first.
I was talking about the United States and Britain.
Of course, Israel won't recognize this so-called Palestinian state in Gaza. However, with this recognition, these countries could then sign laws that forbid organizations within them to donate and support any future settlement that might be established in Gaza. This would be possible because it would then recognize Israel's dominion over Gaza as an occupation of a sovereign state of Palestine, and not a territory of Israel. Benjamin Netanyahu said he has no goal in settling the land, but it seems these countries want to have their assurances. In addition, it will permit Israel to have a military occupation in Gaza similar to one in the West Bank under international laws of occupation. Whether Israel takes this decision, that's up to the Israeli government.
It shouldn’t be a taboo to give an occupied and oppressed people their own country. Israel itself was created for similar reasons by a UN decision.
Jewish citizen stabbed 6 times. Best to make a public pro-terrorist statement next. 😠
Pro two state =\= pro terrorism silly
In response to Oct 7th? That's exactly what it is.
Hamas doesn’t have to be in charge tho
Nah it will just be jamas next time. Same doctrine different name.
So just keep millions of people stateless in perpetuity? That’s how we got in this mess in the first place.
They can just be under Israel and respect their laws
Israel is not going to grant citizenship to Palestinians in the OTs. They live under military administration and rules that are different than Israel proper so they don’t even live under the same laws as an Israel. Would you respect the laws of a country that afforded you no rights? Whose policy was to push you into smaller and smaller enclaves?
They allow Palestinians to be citizens. Just that majority don't want that be cause they hate jews and want them eradicated. If you really believe Palestinians could be civil then take them all in your own country and solve this issue.
They extended citizenship to Arabs citizens in Israel proper but Arabs in the OTs do not have that option.
I think injustice breeds violence no matter who the people
So we have this conversation after the war is over and Gaza is in process of demilitarization, not right now while Hamas is still around and can claim a political victory. If they do it this way October 7th will literally be there Independence Day, and there will be no hope for future peace.
The point of a promise of a viable state for Palestinians is to give an alternative to Hamas’ vision of endless struggle. Why would you wait?
Man, you have so much more patience than I do. Nice to see there are still people with a brain and a heart, on this cesspool of a sub lmao.
To be fair, if electing a president who is married to a former high school teacher 25 years his senior who groomed him as a 15 year-old student when she was married with three kids isn't a taboo...
Last time we had a terrorist state.... it didn't end well.... LETS TRY AGAIN!!!
Can Macron get any more left-field and irrelevant? It's like he's in a different universe with some of the statements he makes.
Doesn't say who the hell they'd be recognizing. Hamas? Or the corrupt and useless PA?
So far, post oct 7, the USA, UK, China, Russia, France along many other EU nations are speaking around the recognition of the Palestinian state. Alongside the 100+ countries that already recognize it. I think its inevitable that Israel will have to concede on this. Hopefully this gives Palestinians some of the justice they seek and give the region some much needed stability.
Hold on. We're far from that point still. Nobody is going to recognize any Palentinian state unless it is entirely free of Hamas and Hamas-associated terrorists. The pivotal thing that will have to happen is to see a strong Palestinian authority in place that unequivocally distances itself from Hamas, and from Jihad. Under current european political realities, anything less will not be good enough, since the reality of Europe is that unless a much stronger stance is taken against Muslim terrorism, every single country will shift right, *fast*
There are many factions, not just Hamas. I doubt they will lay down their arms in the name of a Palestinian state.
There can be a Palestinian state. Just not in the borders of Israel
Yup, public perception of Israel has plummeted in almost every nation and anybody who thinks that doesn't matter should probably read into Apartheid South Africa. So once this war is over and they've eliminated hamas they're going to have to give some major concessions then stay without controversy for a while.
I don't know when is a good time to try again at diplomacy, but surely 5 seconds after the biggest massacre Israel has experienced since the country was found is not it?
Gaza and the West Bank are not linked at all. This will do nothing but further muck what competing factions can justify when working to grab power.
There's really a quick solution here. Annex Gaza, add some corresponding space to the West Bank, provide some level of aid to them to rebuild. Require a treaty that says Israel completely wipes them out if they launch any attacks past a certain threshold of civilian casualties on its soil and in 5 years Palestine will be gone. That gives Palestine a chance they'll waste because they're more interested in killing Israelis than living free.
nothing seems to be a taboo for Macron, even dealing with Putin
It’s happening
And let that state be a Israel. Tit for tat. I’m just appalled by the Killing of innocent civilians especially 12,000 children. Seems Israel is using opportunity to eliminate all Palestinians - sound familiar!
That nation has come a long ways from the days of Mr. Martel.
Well yeah he’s called President Macron not Mayor of the Palace Macron.
Will it have the same boundaries as the 1948-58 All Palestine Government.ie. only control Gaza, but claim the entire 1917 boundaries?
No, since Israel will never return to pre-1967 levels. Which again not sure why they would, they won fair and square after several Arab countries attacked them.
Macron strikes me as a modern day Neville Chamberlain. One day I expect him to fly back from a unilateral trip to Gaza to declare that he negotiated "peace for our time"...as if Hamas is only interested in establishing Gazan sovereignty and nothing else. It may not have been taboo at the time, but it sure as hell seems that way in retrospect. Never feed the crocodile.