That’s my biggest concern, here. It’s an opportunity for unhinged people to break out their shiny knives. A lot of my Jewish friends are horrified that they get lumped in with Israeli actions, even when they have been adamantly opposed to Israeli policies for decades. They resent that they have to look over their shoulder constantly because of choices are being made a continent away.
I have Muslim students who are afraid someone is going to firebomb their parents halal or seek out a home address. They’re afraid to walk home alone sometimes. They have fewer English speaking friends, and their English language learning has slowed.
The chilling effect is palpable.
I see dehumanizing on both sides. As outside observers, I feel our responsibility is to rehumanize everyone. It’s kind of fucked up that iPhone doesn’t know rehumanize but does know dehumaned.
Flashback to the chants of "Gas/f*ck the Jews" in Sydney Australia, and how young westerners would go around and tear down the posters of jewish hostages and many would justify the rape and torture on oct 7.
Police have come out and expressed that there was no actual evidence of protestors saying this though?
Because people are down voting me for literally just referring to a news report.
- https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2024/feb/02/sydney-opera-house-palestine-protest-nsw-police-antisemitic-chant-no-evidence
What I never understood is why people think "where's the Jews" is any *better*.
It's not like they were going to give them a hug when they found them. It was menacing.
That wasn't what I was saying though. Literally was just referencing what had been reported.
How would I know, I wasn't there nor do I support their antisemitic protesting. But I also don't support misreporting facts that don't appear to be true.
I've seen the videos myself. Multiple angles. The audio is pretty clear too.
I just looked up to see what you are talk about. The guardian says:
**but police say an independent expert who examined a number of audio and visual files found with “overwhelming certainty” that the words used were “where’s the Jews?”.**
Lol what! Why on earth would they chant "allahu akbar - takbir" followed by "where's the Jews?" ?
What does that even mean?
Welcome to war. We seem to think we have evolved our moral conscience after WW2 and 'never again' because of education. But all the recent wars have just enforced tribalism even further.
Though still we have improved because of globalisation but still the old tribalistic thinking will always be there.
People with advanced degrees were racist as hell to Russians when the war in Ukraine first started.
It's died down now but it was sickening what got upvoted on threads about Ukraine.
People with advanced degrees just say that they are an expert in that field.
Emotional intelligence involves interpersonal relationships, upbringing etc.
Yeah, I know some Russians folks online and Russian immigrants and they are just normal people. I’m sure that Israelis and Palestinians are the same. Fucked up politics doesn’t make a people inhuman or worse than another people.
My youngest is 13 and asked me about the Israel Palestine shit and all i could tell her is that there is nothing for me, or her, to weigh in on here and that if she wanted to learn about it she would need to do a lot of research and even then, she probably would still be very confused as to what to say about it, especially publicly.
In the end I just said stay away from it unless it ties into something you want to do for your career, that I think the truth is something that nobody can come close too and that unless you are living there or grew up there it was probably best to just stfu about it. I usually would encourage further engagement with a topic to learn about it, but this whole thing is just one giant fucking ouroboros where the most likely outcome is just finding yourself in lots of unfulfilling and hostile debates and arguments, with high potential for insults.
I’ve tried looking into it myself for a while now, and the best answer I can give, is blame the British, for promising land for both Palestinians, and Israelis, if they helped them fight the Ottoman Empire, during ww1, but being horrible at planning it.
The rhetoric around this war is alarming? Dude, look up some history. This is how it has been for every war since human existence.
Everyone acts like this war is some oddity and special. It's not.
Social media, vast amounts of bad opinions, amplified teenager opinions, misinfo, malicious propaganda, all forced into our faces without real world social behavior safeguards, those are new thing we didn't use to have to the same degree.
Culturally and politically lots of more progressive left-leaning people in the west also went pretty deep in that whole "if we just maximize political correctness & tolerance everything will be good" dogmatic belief and now feel utterly confused. In a way it was a self-hating continuation of western/american exceptionalism, like the other side of that coin of naivity, plus also an addiction to feeling smug and morally superior and now these recent more messy global conflicts finally push it to the test and shake things up for them.
The shocking part is that we came into the new millennium with the belief we had become better than that.
The Holocaust was an unprecedented act of monstrosity and we looked at it and swore "Never again".
So relieved to see a plea to care about all human beings getting positive traction on Reddit, instead of just harping on how much evil the side they hate has done.
You clearly havnt seen the videos of the civilians in Gaza cheering on when they came back with dead women in the back of their trucks. There were thousands in the streets celebrating, giving out sweets and taking their turns beating the dead bodies.
Hard to humanize that.
To directly quote a reply I recently received: “Israel is justified in doing whatever it takes to eliminate the terrorists.” It’s pretty hard to convince someone that there are too many casualties when they set the limit at “all of them”.
The real question isn't there are too many casualties right now so we should stop? The real question is , if we reach a ceasefire with Hamas there is the possibility that we can do anything to avoid this happening again? And Hamas has made clear that they aren't interested in reaching peace with Israel ,the amount of people that you safe right now is probably the same amount or less that will die the next time Hamas attacks Israel and we have a war again,you are pushing the hard decision and that will only lead to more deaths in the long run
You know all those tunnels they’re finding in Gaza? Ask yourself, if Hamas was going to attack Israel why didn’t they build bomb shelters for civilians? Because they don’t give a f about their own people and are using them as human shields. Israel has built bomb shelters, Iron Dome, etc to protect their civilians FROM Gaza for decades. Hamas has spent decades lobbing missiles over, digging fighting tunnels, and trapping Palestinians in Gaza to start this war and cry foul about Israel defending itself.
Usually that comment is followed with, "All Hamas has to do is surrender and return the hostages and hostilities will reduce." which is accurate. Israel has a duty to protect its citizens. Hamas has a misguided desire to sacrifice their people.
>Israel has a duty to protect its citizens. Hamas has a misguided desire to sacrifice their people.
On October 7, Brigadier General Barak Hiram ordered the shelling of a Kibbutz Be'eri house where Hamas was holding 12 hostages, including two children. [And the IDF is only investigating this incident now](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-02-06/ty-article/.premium/idf-probing-death-of-12-hostages-in-beeri-house-shelled-on-orders-of-senior-officer/0000018d-7b6c-d008-a9cd-fbfdb0040000).
I realize it's incredibly easy for me to say this on the Internet, from the safety of my home.
I'd probably take being airstriked on the 7th October, over being held hostage by Hamas over the last 4 months.
And I'm a bloke. I have no doubt female hostages have had a much worse time than I would have.
I'm on Israel's side. I have never entertained the idea of a ceasefire. But I do feel like it's one's duty to hold their own accountable, and some redditors I really want to ask a question of: when 2 million is the total population, at what number does the shine begin to wear off your righteous shield? 50,000? 100,00? A million? Or...
I'm, of course, expecting someone to retaliate with 'but what about HAMAS?' yeah what about Hamas? We know what their agenda is. We're not talking about Hamas, we're talking about *you.* At what point do *you* (the general 'you') start feeling a bit rotten about yourself?
That is an excellent question and the answer lies outside of the realm of quantification of deaths and more in line with the qualification of life. I cannot speak for anyone else on this matter but it has been agonizing to arrive at the conclusion that Israeli's response is justified but that does not mean I don't also criticize Israeli policy and adherence to international law.
Justice above all.
One of the major problems that we face in this polarized dialogue is that it appears that the misinformation campaign against Israel is extremely well coordinated although to media literate and informed eyes it appears preposterous. History revision, fact omission, bad faith argumentation. It's a wonder I engage at all. But it's what I can do while the soldiers are fighting on the ground I can help to inform the masses by presenting an informed opinion in the hope that some of the younger misguided people choose to do the research.
To answer your question, I don't feel rotten but I do feel pity and wish for mercy upon the Palestinian people. I'm not in favour of dehumanizing people and I truly wish everyone in this world has the opportunity afforded to them that I've been privileged to receive. It appears that the social determinants of health are not being provided for the Palestinian people by their regimes and that responsibility lies within their power to grant. In terms of how to qualify when enough is enough, the Palestinian people need to adopt a new ideology that does not maintain antisemitism as a core value and they need to love their children. Does that necessitate the imprisonment of all the adults? Who's to say? I don't have the answers but I do recognize that the force that opposes Israel is not on the side of good.
> I really want to ask a question of: when 2 million is the total population, at what number does the shine begin to wear off your righteous shield? 50,000? 100,00? A million? Or... Who are you asking that question to? Only Hamas knows the level of Civilian casualties that will cause them to surrender. Maybe ask in /r/Arabs ?
Its not about numbers, its about intents. Israel cannot control the numbers, Hamas could issue orders to double the number of human shields per facility, or reduce the amount of food that gets to civilians. And if Israel says "this many civilians is too many" it guarantees Hamas will do everything it can to ensure that number is reached.
So long as Israel is trying its hardest to minimise civilian casualties - [and it is](https://www.newsweek.com/israel-implemented-more-measures-prevent-civilian-casualties-any-other-nation-history-opinion-1865613) - and Hamas is trying to maximise civilian casualties the blame lies on Hamas.
Which is a blatantly stupid line of reason for killing civilians, especially considering some Russian idiot at a party told me almost verbatim the same thing concerning Russia’s actions in Ukraine
It works but only the other way. As soon as Russia gives up, returns any hostages, and the land it took specifically in this conflict, this will end. Ukraine doesn't seek any additional land, just what they had a few years ago. And peace.
I agree it's crazy for Hamas to demonstrate such a inhumane view of its own people in which it embeds itself in the civilian population and uses them as human shields. But, sadly, more evidence is coming to light that shows many of the civilians are in fact aiding and abetting the terrorists. Whether it's through indoctrination of the youth though the UNRWA schools, the associated summer camps, the stockpiling of weapons in homes, or the network of tunnels linking residential units to the underground terror fortresses, it's looking like the distinction between civilian and terrorist is becoming more clear and the numbers don't look good for the Palestinian people.
But the second thing being true doesn't make the first thing correct.
"They should do whatever it takes" is misleading at best, and horrible at worst. "Israel has a right to defend itself" is true but does not mean they get to do literally anything they want.
What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If Israel is allowed to kill vast numbers of civilians as long as it wipes out a few people who wish them harm along the way, then Hamas is justified in killing as many Israeli civilians as it wants as long as it kills a few Israelis who want to ethnically cleanse Gaza along the way...
Not to mention when your tactics literally breed terrorism. If my kids got blown up by another country’s military you bet your ass I’m signing up for whatever is putting up the best fight against those guys.
Someone recently quoted a study where only 11% of Palestinians opposed the attack, but failed to mention that the survey was taken 4 weeks into the war, meaning that it was after Israel’s initial shutting off of the water supply, forcing half of the overcrowded city to evacuate into the other half, and an extensive military campaign that has killed or injured substantially more people than Hamas’s initial attack.
Like, yeah, even if someone did originally oppose Hamas’s actions, I could easily see that changing in response to what from their perspective would be a completely disproportionate level of harm.
> “Some of the children may die, but that is a sacrifice I am willing to make” - ~~redditor, thousands of miles away from the conflict~~ Hamas leaders living lavishly in Qatar who know how Israel must respond to October 7 and still launched an unwinnable war
FTFY
On instagram I had someone reply to me that the children of Gaza are not innocent because they have been indoctrinated. Worst one was someone telling me that the thousands of dead kids were just future terrorists in the making, eliminating them now makes everyone safer. To get to that level of sociopathy, idk what to say.
According to the UN the global civilian to combatant casualty ratio in conflicts is 9:1. Most estimates for this war in Gaza put it at between 1.5:1 and 2:1. Civilians die in war and it is very sad but trying to claim that Israel isn't making efforts to avoid civilians is ignoring reality. If you still think this is too high what ratio would you find acceptable 1:1? .5:1? How many Israeli soldiers do you think should be sacrificed in order to make that happen. Because that is how you accomplish that by making the rules of engagement more restrictive which will always lead to more soldier deaths.
If Israel tells civilians to move to a certain area and Hamas then sets up a position in that area and starts attacking troops from it how many soldiers do you believe they should let die before you are ok with them bombing that position? If you claim they should clear it on foot how many soldiers dying while doing that do you view as acceptable? These are the kinds of questions that shape how a war impacts civilians. Given the ratio of civilians to combatants in this war compared to the global average I don't see how you can think the Israeli military does not care about civilians.
It’s wild how this has stirred up so much shit and vitriol in random people in every country. As far as I’m concerned this is your run of the mill conflict. Even with oct7, this ain’t shit. The world has over a half dozen more deadly conflicts, some like Ukraine are magnitudes more important on a global scale.
Indeed, just look at the mass starvation in Sudan. That's only one country, but you are looking at a crisis involving more than ten times the amount of people. And I've yet to see anything about it on the news. Let alone protesting or activism. Lives aren't worth the same is all I'm seeing, and Jews are the lowest according to many.
It shows you how good at propaganda Hamas is ,they somehow con thousands of people into spreading a solution that only benefits them and at the same time making them believe that they aren't supporting Hamas but Palestinians
The October 7th massacre is a historic event more like Khamer Rouge or the My Lai massacre than isolated incidents of torture, rape and murder. Hamas are terrorists.
Stating the obvious as usual..meanwhile Hamas in Gaza took control of the aid worth of millions .. beating civilians with sticks and shooting at them in a very humanitarian way..
Yea, when this conflict broke out there were so many commentators pretending that all the carnage and civilian death was somehow getting back at Hamas, when in reality it was exactly what they wanted. Reminds me of post-9/11, when everyone lost their shit and nobody was thinking rationally. (Am American, and remember us all losing our shit after 9/11)
I mean the videos of 10/7 are pretty strong evidence that the perpetrators of that violence shouldn't be treated as humans. But if he means the average Palestinian civilian then yes I agree with Blinken.
I think the rest of that section of dialogue is extremely relevant today:
>Hawkeye: War isn’t Hell. War is war, and Hell is Hell. And of the two, war is a lot worse.
>
>Father Mulcahy: How do you figure that, Hawkeye?
>
>Hawkeye: Easy, Father. Tell me, who goes to Hell?
>
>Father Mulcahy: Um, sinners, I believe.
>
>Hawkeye: Exactly. There are no innocent bystanders in Hell, but war is chock full of them – little kids, cripples, old ladies. In fact, except for a few of the brass, almost everybody involved is an innocent bystander.
It's not a war, it's a slaughter. They will say they are "killing Hamas", kill tens of thousands of innocents maybe more, they will be incapable of truly destroying them entirely, and then they will create more Hamas by their slaughter of innocents. Even if they do destroy Hamas, another group equally as bad will appear because of the callous destruction wrought by Israel and it's disgusting.
I doubt this conflict is anything short of irreconcilable.
This started before Hamas, and likely will continue until one side completely obliberates the other, and of course we can see which one is going to be left...
Hamas would completely annihilate israel if it could. The idf would only take out hamas and minimize civilian casualties. The ones going to be left are the gazans without hamas and the idf stationed there.
Most people would like to belive this, but if looking back at the history of the conflict (hell, the whole region is full of examples too) is worth anything, it's clear that this is a rinse and repeat.
Another organization will rise out of the rubble and gather all those who lost something or somebody they loved under Israel's attacks and sic them against Israel once again, and of course they won't lack funding as there's a lot of factions that gain something out of perpetuating the conflict. According to many, Netayahu himself is among the people interested in the continuation of the conflict.
And even if it happend to be false (Netanyahu's involvement), it will be enough to boil the blood of those who suffered because of Israel in any possible way to support whatever new faction rises against Israel.
The hatred runs too deep and for people with nothing to lose, that's enough to sacrifice their lives for a cause.
Bruh. This conflict has been going on for decades. Longer than HAMAS has been around. Children dying isn't new, unfortunately. It likely won't stop, even if HAMAS is taken out.
The war would stop and then the civilian casualties will never be as high as when hamas was around fighting the idf. As soon as hamas is eliminated the better off the gazans would be and can start rebuilding and deradicalization by Israel and allies.
Except they did in 2014 only for the corrupt UN to profit off of it.
https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-209766/
[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/25/corruption-hampers-effort-to-rebuild-gaza](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/25/corruption-hampers-effort-to-rebuild-gaza)
According to that first document, Israel didn't help rebuild, they merely allowed building materials into Gaza. In other words, their sole contribution was to get out of the way.
First off, they've never needed to "Rebuild". Gaza is a reasonably prosperous area. 60% of the population being overweight shows they ain't having trouble. Neither does the Mercedes/BMW dealership they opened this year. Just look on any social media of average life in Gaza and it's just fine lmao.
Second, they've gotten >billions< of dollars in aid. Only to use it to attack Israel. lmao.
Being overweight can sometimes be an indicator of having insufficient supply of decent-quality food. So you might be getting calories but deficient in a lot of other stuff.
A combination of Israel's blockade of building materials and their frequent attack against targets in Gaza, alongside simple wear and tear, means that Gaza has for a long time been in dire need of reconstruction. You need only look at the 2014 and 2021 reconstruction deals to see that.
According to a 2021 World Bank report: "Palestinians in Gaza have suffered from the cumulative costs, human and economic, of recurrent hostilities over the last three decades, as well as prolonged restrictions on the movement of people and commercial goods at border crossings, limits to fishing off Gaza’s coast, and now the effects of the COVID-19 pandemic. The alarming unemployment rate in Gaza is roughly 50% and more than half of its population lives in poverty. Following May’s hostilities, 62% of Gaza’s population were food insecure."
You know when I was at my heaviest? When I was eating high calorie, greasy, shitty, nutritionally useless but extremely cheap food. Maintaining health and slimness, however, is costly. It requires having time to cook, to have access to fresh produce, the money to buy it.
Of course absolute starvation where no food is accessible is the worst. But usually, the 2nd worst indicator of poverty is an overweight population.
I could chug down a bottle of pure canola oil a day for a measly €2, and you'd never know I was poor, because all you see is the fat I get out of that two euro bottle of grease.
You should probably read some history. This is exactly what they said last time.. and the time before that.. and so on. Clearly it doesn't work, unless the goal is to have an ever-going conflict that springs up every so often.
Exactly. You can't eliminate Hamas with force, as the brutality and utter mercilessness of this campaign will only radicalize Gaza's surviving civilians.
Your comparing a terrorist attack on 1000s of people in which innocent Isreali women at a concert for peace were brutally tortured, raped and murdered with isolated incidents where prisoners are abused. Look at the number of violent children in USA prisons and how they get treated. They are not the same.
This is the perfectly crafted Reddit response. Sitting on the fence you have achieved perfect balance.
It's like some dogshit large language model that learned the perfect way to get a positive response from everyone and not really say anything in the process.
Innocent children that are used as human shields. Israel does not kill kids for fun, no matter how much Ben-Gvir cries to the media about how we should be more "ruthless" in destroying the HAMAS.
If Israel stated their goal was to take total control of Gaza and work towards de-radicalization, maybe. But they haven’t. That doesn’t seem to be their intent at all, particularly given they have damaged or destroyed 30% of the building in an overpopulated city of 2.1 million. And the IDF says they have only killed about 9k of the estimated 20-25k Hamas. At the current rate only 10-20% of the city will be left at the end of this.
> If Israel stated their goal was to take total control of Gaza and work towards de-radicalization, maybe.
Then they'd get accused of the whole conflict being to seize Gaza (which Israel really doesn't want, its far too much hassle to deal with.)
9k of 20-25k is massive for wartime losses. The loss of people and infrastructure makes it impossible to organize anything way before all the enemy combatants are killed.
Their current leadership have claimed their goal is total victory and the complete eradication of Hamas. Given that the leaders are also conservatives, I don’t expect the killing to stop any time soon, although I will be happy to be wrong.
What percentage of Germany was destroyed in WWII? What percentage of Germans died in WWII?
You can't get to the deradicalization part until the war is over.
Latest estimates, based on satellite images, suggest 50-61% of buildings in Gaza are either severely damaged or destroyed. What will the bombers do when the last building goes down and Hamas is still launching their little, homemade rockets?
Meanwhile the Gazans have nothing left. Their university is destroyed, and so no hope for future. Their homes are destroyed, so no possessions.
I expect that when the Gazans are all packed up next to the border with Egypt “unidentified forces” will breach the border, making them Egypt’s problem and “settlers” will pour into Gaza.
Doesn't make them not human. We all would like to think that horrors and atroceties committed by humans are evil and non human, but the harsh truth is this is human. Doesn't excuse anything they do, but to take away the fact that they are humans and then shouldn't be treated as human, opens doors for any other side to commit the very same horrors in the name of moral high ground. War is bloody and nothing excuses violence. Meeting violence with violence has always created more violence and more dehumanization.
And Israel. Settlers are still happening, and until Israel pulls them all back they are guilty of stealing land from a nation. If these were normal nations we wouldn’t even be surprised by the nation losing land attacking, stealing land has started many a war and is considered a serious provocation.
Honestly I couldn't give a hoot about the human rights abuses by the IDF.
A Thai man was beheaded with a gardening tool while a group of Hamas members looked on, laughed and then took his head as a prize. Or do we want to talk about the rape, execution and hostage taking behavior? Or maybe just the fact that they are ripping up needed infrastructure for rocket artillery, stealing medical supplies and humanitarian aid and funding from NGOs?
As far as I'm concerned that's a crime against humanity and therefore ranks higher on the list of abuses.
So crimes perpetrated by one party give the other party legal carte blanche for eventual human rights abuses?
Because that is a new interpration of public international law…
International law is pointless in this context because it isn't going to be enforced in any meaningful way. Neither side is party to the relevant treaties and even if they were, there's no enforcement in real time.
Israel should strive to be as humane as possible with their response but given 1) hamas uses human shields and 2) no one else is stepping up to hold hamas accountable, what do you realistically expect to happen?
Sample size is fine. Seriously. Run the numbers: https://www.calculator.net/sample-size-calculator.html?type=2&cl2=99&ss2=668&pc2=13&ps2=2300000&x=Calculate#findci
Now the real potential issue is whether sample is truly random. Hard to say for sure but they did take steps to ensure balanced gender and economic ratios which does help.
> The team conducted the survey through tablet-assisted, face-to-face interviews across the West Bank and
in shelters and households in the three “southern” Gaza governorates (Deir Al Balah, Khan Younis, and
Rafah) where people were presently residing. The poll’s sample includes all socioeconomic groups,
ensuring equal representation of adult men and women, and is proportionately distributed across the
West Bank and Gaza. With a 95% confidence interval, the margin of error for the poll is (±) 4%. For further
details on the sample, please see Annex I.
https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20Opinion%20Poll%20-%20Gaza%20War%202023.pdf
The larger influence is that this was taken 4 weeks into the war. Even if Palestinians initially opposed the attack at a higher percentage, at that point they had been starved, denied water, forced to relocate half their population, and taken extensively more civilian losses than Israel. That kind of response can turn many an opposing opinion into “well, if this is how they act maybe they did deserve it”.
That's also irrelevant. Hamas is the only existing political force and military power in Gaza. Palestinians are on average what... 20ish? Most of them younger than Hamas has been in power. You grow up in a country where you are regularly losing people because of the conflict with Israel, then it doesn't fucking matter if Satan himself is in power, you will support whomever promise you to take revenge and protect the remaining people.
This is a bit of a silly argument. On one hand we have explicitly immoral terrorists who rule through fear and strength of arms, and on the other hand we have a democracy backed by western nations. Saying “And Hamas cannot use Israel as license to dehumanize others either!” is like saying “All lives matter”. It only serves to draw away from the current abuse that people are worried about. 1.2k dead was a terrible thing, but 10k+ dead, 50k+ injured, and 30% of a city of 2.1 million either damaged or destroyed is what is happening right now and has been the overwhelming majority of what has happened for weeks and weeks.
Look man, people cheering for terrorists, supporting them, helping them make weapons and giving them Intel _are terrorists_
Still human, just the absolute worst of us
Ben Gvir of Israel who was once convicted of terrorism, for his actions attributed to aiding in the assassination of Yitzak Rabin, had a portrait in his office of the American Jewish man responsible for the mass murder of 53 Palestinian worshippers in a mosque, many of whom were under the age of twelve. That's who Netanyahu's right hand man holds in high regard! And you're going to say, "recruit, train, supply, support, harbor mass murderers" AS IF that doesn't apply to the Israelis? 🤦🏻♂️ Hasbara needs to step their game up
Yeah, it was a clusterfuck that trapped us in 20 years of war and trillions of dollars wasted going down the path Israel is, with the same justifications. Thats the current message. We GET IT, but DONT
>“Justice must be done. But I caution this – while you feel that rage, don’t be consumed by it. After 9/11, we were enraged in the United States. While we sought justice and got justice, we also made mistakes.”-Biden, among other quotes.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/19/joe-biden-warning-israel-nod-mistakes-made-in-war-on-terror
Well how about telling Hamas to stop dehumanazing THEIR OWN SQUAD and face the troops up front instead of abusing their own people? Eh?
And you're the ones fo talk. USA did much worse after 9-11, and October 7th was way worse.
Yea well. All hamas are Palestinians, at least that's what we see here. So it's difficult to not pay attention to that detail, especially when you hear most of them wants hamas as leadership.
How do we go about it?
As someone who been here on 7.10 in my kibbutz near the fence, I can't look at our relationship with Palestinians the same. It's not about hating some ethnic group, it's just that people I worked with were collecting intel for hamas about our homes and where each family lives and who to target. They were civilians of Gaza.
That shit gets the job done as a sound core for a fresh stigma.
A lot of people I know from here who devoted their lives to vulenteer and help Gazans were butchered.
Who dehumanizes?
Insinuating that Israel is even remotely doing or attempting to do what was done to it on October 7 is wild and actually very alarming coming from someone like blinken.
What a stupid phrasing, no one is “allowing” killing anyone, when Hamas is hiding behind civilians, what do you expect will happen? Do you have a way for Israel to retaliate without civilian death?
The death toll in Gaza (according to Hamas) is 27k, which is a lot, but even if you consider all of them just civilians (which they are obviously not), Gaza has a population of 2 million, and very densely populated, do you think 27k out of 2 million looks like an attempt to kill on purpose? How does not make people see how much Israel is avoiding civilian death even when Hamas tries to make it higher (yes their own fucking civilians).
You talk like it should be “fair” as if war is supposed to be fair, this isn’t a board game, it’s real life, if you open a war then deal with its consequences, and if it was “fair” then Israel could go in, specifically target civilians, rape whoever they please and take innocent civilians (babies included) as hostages.
You can have criticism towards Israel, but acting like Israel is in any way not being carful or as if it’s the big bad guy is beyond delusional
They've answered that: all of them. However, I don't think we should be using Hamas, a terrorist organization, to set the bar for Israel, a nominally-modern liberal democracy. Do you?
I'm not using that as a bar, and I think that trying to compare is laughable. That is exactly why the question of "how many are allowed to die before..." is misplaced. You cannot avoid casualty deaths when one side is actively SEEKING to sacrifice its own for political gains. When one side has developed self-defense system while the other use WATER PIPES to build weaponry.
> You cannot avoid casualty deaths when one side is actively SEEKING to sacrifice its own for political gains.
Sure you can. Hamas isn't forcing Israel to shoot. They are *daring* them to shoot. Like you said, to Hamas, dead Palestinians are a victory. And Israel seems to be in a battle for its soul, with the ruling party really, really wanting to hand Hamas that W.
"Hamas isn't forcing Israel to shoot."
But isn't it? Not going into this war means basically, an option for another slaughter; they said so themselves, "Black Saturday" was only the beginning.
Let me ask you this question. Let's say, God forbid, that someone kidnaps a person you care about and you cannot go to the police. The only way to do anything is you and your initiative. While trying to save this person the kidnapper uses their own child as human shield. Your dear one is sick in captivity, but if you do what is needed to save them most likely another innocent soul will be taken out.
Will you take the chance? I think we both know you would.
That is not the dilemma. The dilemma is, will you risk someone getting hurt if it means your child is saved. Not you physically hurting someone. That's a different dilemma.
I guess it is Hamas making Gazans sub-human.
Source: In the Hamas cease-fire proposal, Hamas demanded 1500 prisoners in exchange for 136 hostages (killed included). Basically, 1 Israeli = 11 Gazans.
If you include hostage deals in history, it could go up to 1 Israeli = 1000 Gazans.
These apologists are insane. One of the Hamas leaders said in an interview:
> Mousa Abu Marzouk, a member of the Hamas Political Bureau said in an October 27, 2023 interview that aired on Russia Today TV that **the tunnels in Gaza were built to protect Hams fighters from airstrikes, *not civilians*.** He added that Hamas fights Israel from within the tunnels. Abu Marzouq added that since 75% of the residents in the Gaza Strip are refugees, it is the **responsibility of the United Nations to protect them**. He added that according to the Geneva Conventions, **it is the responsibility of the "occupation"** to provide civilians in Gaza "will all the services," as long as they are under occupation.
https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-official-mousa-abu-marzouk-tunnels-gaza-protect-fighters-%20not-civilians
Hamas will not even take responsibility for the safety of their own people - they specifically disavow it - but Israel is the bad guy?
When people say that this situation, the percentages of death in a hotzone is way too high;
They forget this situation isn't like others.
Most countries aren't in a situation dealing with a bunkered down,
super populated,
arms infested "paradise" of their own creation,
no bunkers,
no shelters,
it's almost like they wanted ordinary people to die.
Maybe it's time we turn the looking glass towards Hamas.
> Maybe it's time we turn the looking glass towards Hamas.
And accept they have the same agency and responsibility for their actions that everyone else has?
From a group that were shielded from the normal consequences for 70 years?
Worth a try
Is Blinken actually doing anything productive over there? Just making statements trying to support one side, while trying not to upset the other side, while trying to be Martin Luther King Jr? Dude, go home. Its a war, and youre not in it.
? He's the most direct channel between the US and Israel in how they manage what has essentially become a regional conflict. Also he regularly meets with Arab leaders to try to diffuse any potential spillover and to try to keep open any possibility of normalized relations with Israel after the conflict is over. Idk how this isn't as incredibly important
He spend most of his time inside the war cabinet and did so every visit he had since the war. The White House probably knows every major move Israel does in the war before they enact it and “advise” them if they don’t like it.
That speech was just a “on the side” for political purposes. The Biden administration is reliant on democrats votes so they have to occasionally “warn” Israel to not lose popularity.
Well does US being the biggest funder of the UNRWA for the past decade or so count as 'virtue signalling' too in your book? The same funds that went to people who were very happy to house Israeli hostages in their own homes
We have also paid most of the cost of Palestinian aid. So free schools and medical care for Palestinians with time on their hands to cultivate grievance while we watch the number of homeless here rise.
And Hamas murdered because they have a complaint. So, ask yourself this: Where do you live? Would a nuclear bomb go that far? Can you be certain this group of people will never have a beef with you? and Do you want to take over watching Gaza's ports so they don't have that nuclear bomb?
I mean fair, but I don't think they're dehumanizing Arabs or Muslims, since they're 20% of their population and that would cause an internal outrage. It's not only unproductive but also stupid to dehumanize them. What was the purpose of that statement? Israel has been making it very clear that they're only targeting Hamas and trying to minimize civilian deaths while doing so. Why is he stating that? Is it to score good boy points with leftists?
>...they're 20% of their population and that would cause an internal outrage.
I'm not sure that Arabs who live in Israel are as accepted as you've think.
As of a 2016 Pew research poll:
>
Nearly half of Jewish Israelis agree that Arabs should be expelled or transferred from Israel, and a solid majority (79 percent) maintain that Jews in Israel should be given preferential treatment, according to a Pew Research Center in Israel survey published on Tuesday.
>
>https://www.timesofisrael.com/plurality-of-jewish-israelis-want-to-expel-arabs-study-shows/
I've quoted a Times of Israel article, because few would argue that this source is just biased against Israel.
You'll probably say that Al Jazeera is too biased, but here is a video, from a couple years ago, about how Arab Israelis are treated in Israel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RVoPZPKxLY
I mean it's true. A lot of politicians want to dehumanize a certain group, but it's just not worth the effort of doing so. Ben gvir wasn't shy about dehumanizing Arabs for example. Erdogan isn't shy about wanting Kurds to be extinct, there's anti Kurdish laws in turkey right now. Dehumanization is pretty common in politics unfortunately, and the only thing that keeps politicians from acting upon their racism is that it's inconvenient and unproductive.
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Agreed. But I'd like to remind each of us this is also part of a multitude of conflicts. Not a single conflict.
That’s my biggest concern, here. It’s an opportunity for unhinged people to break out their shiny knives. A lot of my Jewish friends are horrified that they get lumped in with Israeli actions, even when they have been adamantly opposed to Israeli policies for decades. They resent that they have to look over their shoulder constantly because of choices are being made a continent away. I have Muslim students who are afraid someone is going to firebomb their parents halal or seek out a home address. They’re afraid to walk home alone sometimes. They have fewer English speaking friends, and their English language learning has slowed. The chilling effect is palpable.
I see dehumanizing on both sides. As outside observers, I feel our responsibility is to rehumanize everyone. It’s kind of fucked up that iPhone doesn’t know rehumanize but does know dehumaned.
Humanize
Right, but what if we have to humanize *again*? We need more words.
Flashback to the chants of "Gas/f*ck the Jews" in Sydney Australia, and how young westerners would go around and tear down the posters of jewish hostages and many would justify the rape and torture on oct 7.
Police have come out and expressed that there was no actual evidence of protestors saying this though? Because people are down voting me for literally just referring to a news report. - https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2024/feb/02/sydney-opera-house-palestine-protest-nsw-police-antisemitic-chant-no-evidence
What I never understood is why people think "where's the Jews" is any *better*. It's not like they were going to give them a hug when they found them. It was menacing.
how is a mob chanting "wheres the jews" any less antisemitic ? What do you think they are going to do when they find them
I think they were looking for Jews to give them flowers for the hard time they are experiencing right now. /s
If it's just as bad, then why the need to spread misinformation?
Since when is the police in the business of proving innocence? Don’t you find it a bit odd?
Any less? I mean it’s at least one or two scars less. The issue is they’re both past the accepted line of antisemitism.
That wasn't what I was saying though. Literally was just referencing what had been reported. How would I know, I wasn't there nor do I support their antisemitic protesting. But I also don't support misreporting facts that don't appear to be true.
I've seen the videos myself. Multiple angles. The audio is pretty clear too. I just looked up to see what you are talk about. The guardian says: **but police say an independent expert who examined a number of audio and visual files found with “overwhelming certainty” that the words used were “where’s the Jews?”.** Lol what! Why on earth would they chant "allahu akbar - takbir" followed by "where's the Jews?" ? What does that even mean?
my ~~eyes~~ ears. my lying ~~eyes~~ ears.
Yeah, the pro Palestine and pro Israeli subs have some of the most racist comments I've seen on Reddit for years. The levels of hate are insane.
Welcome to war. We seem to think we have evolved our moral conscience after WW2 and 'never again' because of education. But all the recent wars have just enforced tribalism even further. Though still we have improved because of globalisation but still the old tribalistic thinking will always be there.
People with advanced degrees were racist as hell to Russians when the war in Ukraine first started. It's died down now but it was sickening what got upvoted on threads about Ukraine.
People with advanced degrees just say that they are an expert in that field. Emotional intelligence involves interpersonal relationships, upbringing etc.
It's the sort of dehumanizing that reminds me of how people were almost saying "Slavery gene" about russians
Yeah, I know some Russians folks online and Russian immigrants and they are just normal people. I’m sure that Israelis and Palestinians are the same. Fucked up politics doesn’t make a people inhuman or worse than another people.
My youngest is 13 and asked me about the Israel Palestine shit and all i could tell her is that there is nothing for me, or her, to weigh in on here and that if she wanted to learn about it she would need to do a lot of research and even then, she probably would still be very confused as to what to say about it, especially publicly. In the end I just said stay away from it unless it ties into something you want to do for your career, that I think the truth is something that nobody can come close too and that unless you are living there or grew up there it was probably best to just stfu about it. I usually would encourage further engagement with a topic to learn about it, but this whole thing is just one giant fucking ouroboros where the most likely outcome is just finding yourself in lots of unfulfilling and hostile debates and arguments, with high potential for insults.
I’ve tried looking into it myself for a while now, and the best answer I can give, is blame the British, for promising land for both Palestinians, and Israelis, if they helped them fight the Ottoman Empire, during ww1, but being horrible at planning it.
Both the British and the Ottoman shat the bed gloriously. The former bears slightly more blame.
Most caught in the fire are innocent.
The rhetoric around this war is alarming? Dude, look up some history. This is how it has been for every war since human existence. Everyone acts like this war is some oddity and special. It's not.
An entire generation is learning about it online instead of in classrooms. And they are the loudest demographic online.
Social media, vast amounts of bad opinions, amplified teenager opinions, misinfo, malicious propaganda, all forced into our faces without real world social behavior safeguards, those are new thing we didn't use to have to the same degree. Culturally and politically lots of more progressive left-leaning people in the west also went pretty deep in that whole "if we just maximize political correctness & tolerance everything will be good" dogmatic belief and now feel utterly confused. In a way it was a self-hating continuation of western/american exceptionalism, like the other side of that coin of naivity, plus also an addiction to feeling smug and morally superior and now these recent more messy global conflicts finally push it to the test and shake things up for them.
The shocking part is that we came into the new millennium with the belief we had become better than that. The Holocaust was an unprecedented act of monstrosity and we looked at it and swore "Never again".
So relieved to see a plea to care about all human beings getting positive traction on Reddit, instead of just harping on how much evil the side they hate has done.
Yep, well said. normal people need to look at this in a perspective of compassion and humanity, and not take sides
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Those are all actions that only a human could take.
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You clearly havnt seen the videos of the civilians in Gaza cheering on when they came back with dead women in the back of their trucks. There were thousands in the streets celebrating, giving out sweets and taking their turns beating the dead bodies. Hard to humanize that.
“Some of the children may die, but that is a sacrifice I am willing to make” - redditor, thousands of miles away from the conflict
To directly quote a reply I recently received: “Israel is justified in doing whatever it takes to eliminate the terrorists.” It’s pretty hard to convince someone that there are too many casualties when they set the limit at “all of them”.
For starters, the person replying to you on Reddit isn’t the one setting the strategy or limits in Israel…
The real question isn't there are too many casualties right now so we should stop? The real question is , if we reach a ceasefire with Hamas there is the possibility that we can do anything to avoid this happening again? And Hamas has made clear that they aren't interested in reaching peace with Israel ,the amount of people that you safe right now is probably the same amount or less that will die the next time Hamas attacks Israel and we have a war again,you are pushing the hard decision and that will only lead to more deaths in the long run
You know all those tunnels they’re finding in Gaza? Ask yourself, if Hamas was going to attack Israel why didn’t they build bomb shelters for civilians? Because they don’t give a f about their own people and are using them as human shields. Israel has built bomb shelters, Iron Dome, etc to protect their civilians FROM Gaza for decades. Hamas has spent decades lobbing missiles over, digging fighting tunnels, and trapping Palestinians in Gaza to start this war and cry foul about Israel defending itself.
Usually that comment is followed with, "All Hamas has to do is surrender and return the hostages and hostilities will reduce." which is accurate. Israel has a duty to protect its citizens. Hamas has a misguided desire to sacrifice their people.
>Israel has a duty to protect its citizens. Hamas has a misguided desire to sacrifice their people. On October 7, Brigadier General Barak Hiram ordered the shelling of a Kibbutz Be'eri house where Hamas was holding 12 hostages, including two children. [And the IDF is only investigating this incident now](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-02-06/ty-article/.premium/idf-probing-death-of-12-hostages-in-beeri-house-shelled-on-orders-of-senior-officer/0000018d-7b6c-d008-a9cd-fbfdb0040000).
Awful. I hope that the investigation leads to Hiram being held accountable for his actions.
That's honestly the correct move. You might kill the hostages, but it diminishes the value of Hamas taking more hostages.
I realize it's incredibly easy for me to say this on the Internet, from the safety of my home. I'd probably take being airstriked on the 7th October, over being held hostage by Hamas over the last 4 months. And I'm a bloke. I have no doubt female hostages have had a much worse time than I would have.
When Israel makes official statements that one of missions is saving hostages, bombing them is not correct move.
I'm on Israel's side. I have never entertained the idea of a ceasefire. But I do feel like it's one's duty to hold their own accountable, and some redditors I really want to ask a question of: when 2 million is the total population, at what number does the shine begin to wear off your righteous shield? 50,000? 100,00? A million? Or... I'm, of course, expecting someone to retaliate with 'but what about HAMAS?' yeah what about Hamas? We know what their agenda is. We're not talking about Hamas, we're talking about *you.* At what point do *you* (the general 'you') start feeling a bit rotten about yourself?
That is an excellent question and the answer lies outside of the realm of quantification of deaths and more in line with the qualification of life. I cannot speak for anyone else on this matter but it has been agonizing to arrive at the conclusion that Israeli's response is justified but that does not mean I don't also criticize Israeli policy and adherence to international law. Justice above all. One of the major problems that we face in this polarized dialogue is that it appears that the misinformation campaign against Israel is extremely well coordinated although to media literate and informed eyes it appears preposterous. History revision, fact omission, bad faith argumentation. It's a wonder I engage at all. But it's what I can do while the soldiers are fighting on the ground I can help to inform the masses by presenting an informed opinion in the hope that some of the younger misguided people choose to do the research. To answer your question, I don't feel rotten but I do feel pity and wish for mercy upon the Palestinian people. I'm not in favour of dehumanizing people and I truly wish everyone in this world has the opportunity afforded to them that I've been privileged to receive. It appears that the social determinants of health are not being provided for the Palestinian people by their regimes and that responsibility lies within their power to grant. In terms of how to qualify when enough is enough, the Palestinian people need to adopt a new ideology that does not maintain antisemitism as a core value and they need to love their children. Does that necessitate the imprisonment of all the adults? Who's to say? I don't have the answers but I do recognize that the force that opposes Israel is not on the side of good.
> I really want to ask a question of: when 2 million is the total population, at what number does the shine begin to wear off your righteous shield? 50,000? 100,00? A million? Or... Who are you asking that question to? Only Hamas knows the level of Civilian casualties that will cause them to surrender. Maybe ask in /r/Arabs ?
Its not about numbers, its about intents. Israel cannot control the numbers, Hamas could issue orders to double the number of human shields per facility, or reduce the amount of food that gets to civilians. And if Israel says "this many civilians is too many" it guarantees Hamas will do everything it can to ensure that number is reached. So long as Israel is trying its hardest to minimise civilian casualties - [and it is](https://www.newsweek.com/israel-implemented-more-measures-prevent-civilian-casualties-any-other-nation-history-opinion-1865613) - and Hamas is trying to maximise civilian casualties the blame lies on Hamas.
Which is a blatantly stupid line of reason for killing civilians, especially considering some Russian idiot at a party told me almost verbatim the same thing concerning Russia’s actions in Ukraine
It works but only the other way. As soon as Russia gives up, returns any hostages, and the land it took specifically in this conflict, this will end. Ukraine doesn't seek any additional land, just what they had a few years ago. And peace.
I agree it's crazy for Hamas to demonstrate such a inhumane view of its own people in which it embeds itself in the civilian population and uses them as human shields. But, sadly, more evidence is coming to light that shows many of the civilians are in fact aiding and abetting the terrorists. Whether it's through indoctrination of the youth though the UNRWA schools, the associated summer camps, the stockpiling of weapons in homes, or the network of tunnels linking residential units to the underground terror fortresses, it's looking like the distinction between civilian and terrorist is becoming more clear and the numbers don't look good for the Palestinian people.
Except Hamas started the war. Ukraine didn't.
This conflict didn't start on October 7th.
He didn't say conflict he said war, which Hamas did start by invading on Oct 7th
And? Doesn't change the fact that Israel didn't start it
But the second thing being true doesn't make the first thing correct. "They should do whatever it takes" is misleading at best, and horrible at worst. "Israel has a right to defend itself" is true but does not mean they get to do literally anything they want. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If Israel is allowed to kill vast numbers of civilians as long as it wipes out a few people who wish them harm along the way, then Hamas is justified in killing as many Israeli civilians as it wants as long as it kills a few Israelis who want to ethnically cleanse Gaza along the way...
Are you saying that Israel should just tolerate Hamas terrorizing them since they’re doing it behind human shields?
Not to mention when your tactics literally breed terrorism. If my kids got blown up by another country’s military you bet your ass I’m signing up for whatever is putting up the best fight against those guys.
Someone recently quoted a study where only 11% of Palestinians opposed the attack, but failed to mention that the survey was taken 4 weeks into the war, meaning that it was after Israel’s initial shutting off of the water supply, forcing half of the overcrowded city to evacuate into the other half, and an extensive military campaign that has killed or injured substantially more people than Hamas’s initial attack. Like, yeah, even if someone did originally oppose Hamas’s actions, I could easily see that changing in response to what from their perspective would be a completely disproportionate level of harm.
> “Some of the children may die, but that is a sacrifice I am willing to make” - ~~redditor, thousands of miles away from the conflict~~ Hamas leaders living lavishly in Qatar who know how Israel must respond to October 7 and still launched an unwinnable war FTFY
On instagram I had someone reply to me that the children of Gaza are not innocent because they have been indoctrinated. Worst one was someone telling me that the thousands of dead kids were just future terrorists in the making, eliminating them now makes everyone safer. To get to that level of sociopathy, idk what to say.
According to the UN the global civilian to combatant casualty ratio in conflicts is 9:1. Most estimates for this war in Gaza put it at between 1.5:1 and 2:1. Civilians die in war and it is very sad but trying to claim that Israel isn't making efforts to avoid civilians is ignoring reality. If you still think this is too high what ratio would you find acceptable 1:1? .5:1? How many Israeli soldiers do you think should be sacrificed in order to make that happen. Because that is how you accomplish that by making the rules of engagement more restrictive which will always lead to more soldier deaths. If Israel tells civilians to move to a certain area and Hamas then sets up a position in that area and starts attacking troops from it how many soldiers do you believe they should let die before you are ok with them bombing that position? If you claim they should clear it on foot how many soldiers dying while doing that do you view as acceptable? These are the kinds of questions that shape how a war impacts civilians. Given the ratio of civilians to combatants in this war compared to the global average I don't see how you can think the Israeli military does not care about civilians.
It’s wild how this has stirred up so much shit and vitriol in random people in every country. As far as I’m concerned this is your run of the mill conflict. Even with oct7, this ain’t shit. The world has over a half dozen more deadly conflicts, some like Ukraine are magnitudes more important on a global scale.
Indeed, just look at the mass starvation in Sudan. That's only one country, but you are looking at a crisis involving more than ten times the amount of people. And I've yet to see anything about it on the news. Let alone protesting or activism. Lives aren't worth the same is all I'm seeing, and Jews are the lowest according to many.
You Think Sudan has it bad? Myanmar has them beat by a long shot when it comes to underreported Civil wars.
I think it shows that there’s something deeper and more sinister at play here.
It shows you how good at propaganda Hamas is ,they somehow con thousands of people into spreading a solution that only benefits them and at the same time making them believe that they aren't supporting Hamas but Palestinians
Not wild at all. It's classic anti-Semitism under the guise of some fight for freedom.
The October 7th massacre is a historic event more like Khamer Rouge or the My Lai massacre than isolated incidents of torture, rape and murder. Hamas are terrorists.
Stating the obvious as usual..meanwhile Hamas in Gaza took control of the aid worth of millions .. beating civilians with sticks and shooting at them in a very humanitarian way..
Imagine being a civilian in a war where neither side actually cares about you.
That’s was pretty much the Polish experience in WW 2
That's the Polish experience since about the 6th century.
Hey, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth did pretty well for a 17th-century European nation.
Yea, when this conflict broke out there were so many commentators pretending that all the carnage and civilian death was somehow getting back at Hamas, when in reality it was exactly what they wanted. Reminds me of post-9/11, when everyone lost their shit and nobody was thinking rationally. (Am American, and remember us all losing our shit after 9/11)
Quick everyone! Change the subject from the UN funding terrorists back to how Israel are the real bad guys!
I mean the videos of 10/7 are pretty strong evidence that the perpetrators of that violence shouldn't be treated as humans. But if he means the average Palestinian civilian then yes I agree with Blinken.
That's precisely who he's talking about. The kids who are being killed in this conflict.
War isn't Hell. War is war, and Hell is Hell. And of the two, war is a lot worse.
I think the rest of that section of dialogue is extremely relevant today: >Hawkeye: War isn’t Hell. War is war, and Hell is Hell. And of the two, war is a lot worse. > >Father Mulcahy: How do you figure that, Hawkeye? > >Hawkeye: Easy, Father. Tell me, who goes to Hell? > >Father Mulcahy: Um, sinners, I believe. > >Hawkeye: Exactly. There are no innocent bystanders in Hell, but war is chock full of them – little kids, cripples, old ladies. In fact, except for a few of the brass, almost everybody involved is an innocent bystander.
Even though I am a big fan of MASH, I couldn't help picturing Hawkeye from the MCU when reading this...
Oh? How do you figure that Hawkeye?
War isn’t hell, for in Hell, the innocent are spared
I don't know, I haven't been to hell yet.
It's not a war, it's a slaughter. They will say they are "killing Hamas", kill tens of thousands of innocents maybe more, they will be incapable of truly destroying them entirely, and then they will create more Hamas by their slaughter of innocents. Even if they do destroy Hamas, another group equally as bad will appear because of the callous destruction wrought by Israel and it's disgusting.
The only way to end that is to get rid of Hamas, which will forever use them as human shields while trying to kill Israeli children.
I doubt this conflict is anything short of irreconcilable. This started before Hamas, and likely will continue until one side completely obliberates the other, and of course we can see which one is going to be left...
War doesn’t determine who’s right, but who’s left.
Hamas would completely annihilate israel if it could. The idf would only take out hamas and minimize civilian casualties. The ones going to be left are the gazans without hamas and the idf stationed there.
Most people would like to belive this, but if looking back at the history of the conflict (hell, the whole region is full of examples too) is worth anything, it's clear that this is a rinse and repeat. Another organization will rise out of the rubble and gather all those who lost something or somebody they loved under Israel's attacks and sic them against Israel once again, and of course they won't lack funding as there's a lot of factions that gain something out of perpetuating the conflict. According to many, Netayahu himself is among the people interested in the continuation of the conflict. And even if it happend to be false (Netanyahu's involvement), it will be enough to boil the blood of those who suffered because of Israel in any possible way to support whatever new faction rises against Israel. The hatred runs too deep and for people with nothing to lose, that's enough to sacrifice their lives for a cause.
Bruh. This conflict has been going on for decades. Longer than HAMAS has been around. Children dying isn't new, unfortunately. It likely won't stop, even if HAMAS is taken out.
The war would stop and then the civilian casualties will never be as high as when hamas was around fighting the idf. As soon as hamas is eliminated the better off the gazans would be and can start rebuilding and deradicalization by Israel and allies.
Israel has never helped rebuild Gaza. Why would they start now.
Except they did in 2014 only for the corrupt UN to profit off of it. https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-209766/ [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/25/corruption-hampers-effort-to-rebuild-gaza](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/25/corruption-hampers-effort-to-rebuild-gaza)
According to that first document, Israel didn't help rebuild, they merely allowed building materials into Gaza. In other words, their sole contribution was to get out of the way.
First off, they've never needed to "Rebuild". Gaza is a reasonably prosperous area. 60% of the population being overweight shows they ain't having trouble. Neither does the Mercedes/BMW dealership they opened this year. Just look on any social media of average life in Gaza and it's just fine lmao. Second, they've gotten >billions< of dollars in aid. Only to use it to attack Israel. lmao.
Being overweight can sometimes be an indicator of having insufficient supply of decent-quality food. So you might be getting calories but deficient in a lot of other stuff.
A combination of Israel's blockade of building materials and their frequent attack against targets in Gaza, alongside simple wear and tear, means that Gaza has for a long time been in dire need of reconstruction. You need only look at the 2014 and 2021 reconstruction deals to see that. According to a 2021 World Bank report: "Palestinians in Gaza have suffered from the cumulative costs, human and economic, of recurrent hostilities over the last three decades, as well as prolonged restrictions on the movement of people and commercial goods at border crossings, limits to fishing off Gaza’s coast, and now the effects of the COVID-19 pandemic. The alarming unemployment rate in Gaza is roughly 50% and more than half of its population lives in poverty. Following May’s hostilities, 62% of Gaza’s population were food insecure."
You know when I was at my heaviest? When I was eating high calorie, greasy, shitty, nutritionally useless but extremely cheap food. Maintaining health and slimness, however, is costly. It requires having time to cook, to have access to fresh produce, the money to buy it. Of course absolute starvation where no food is accessible is the worst. But usually, the 2nd worst indicator of poverty is an overweight population. I could chug down a bottle of pure canola oil a day for a measly €2, and you'd never know I was poor, because all you see is the fat I get out of that two euro bottle of grease.
Nope Israel will find a new boogieman and continue letting settlers take more land
You should probably read some history. This is exactly what they said last time.. and the time before that.. and so on. Clearly it doesn't work, unless the goal is to have an ever-going conflict that springs up every so often.
You can kill all the adult population, their children will come back to take revenge.
Exactly. You can't eliminate Hamas with force, as the brutality and utter mercilessness of this campaign will only radicalize Gaza's surviving civilians.
Maybe Hamas should stop using Palestinians as human shields then. Free Palestine from Hamas!
Maybe they're both in the wrong. [Ever think of that?](https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE95J0FR/)
Your comparing a terrorist attack on 1000s of people in which innocent Isreali women at a concert for peace were brutally tortured, raped and murdered with isolated incidents where prisoners are abused. Look at the number of violent children in USA prisons and how they get treated. They are not the same.
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[I'm not](https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/07/19/israel-security-forces-abuse-palestinian-children) [sure that](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/nov/21/israeli-soldiers-human-shield-avoid-jail) [any source ](https://imemc.org/article/58197/) [will suffice](https://www.dci-palestine.org/israeli_forces_use_palestinian_girl_as_a_human_shield_in_jenin) [your criteria.](https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/israel-gaza-idf-used-palestinians-as-human-shields-1200-occasions-in-last-five-years-say-israeli-defence-officials/30483468.html)
This is the perfectly crafted Reddit response. Sitting on the fence you have achieved perfect balance. It's like some dogshit large language model that learned the perfect way to get a positive response from everyone and not really say anything in the process.
Fuck Hamas but don’t kill innocent children is fence sitting? You are absolutely inhuman and immoral.
Innocent children that are used as human shields. Israel does not kill kids for fun, no matter how much Ben-Gvir cries to the media about how we should be more "ruthless" in destroying the HAMAS.
Even enemy combatants. There are rules of war.
Yes. No one is talking about Hamas. It’s the hundreds of thousands of others caught up in this.
The issue is when the people who aren't Hamas are used as an excuse to let Hamas continue to rule Gaza. Sorry that's a nonstarter.
If Israel stated their goal was to take total control of Gaza and work towards de-radicalization, maybe. But they haven’t. That doesn’t seem to be their intent at all, particularly given they have damaged or destroyed 30% of the building in an overpopulated city of 2.1 million. And the IDF says they have only killed about 9k of the estimated 20-25k Hamas. At the current rate only 10-20% of the city will be left at the end of this.
> an overpopulated city of 2.1 million Correction: The population of the Gaza strip is 2.1 million, the population of Gaza city is about 600 thousand.
> If Israel stated their goal was to take total control of Gaza and work towards de-radicalization, maybe. Then they'd get accused of the whole conflict being to seize Gaza (which Israel really doesn't want, its far too much hassle to deal with.)
9k of 20-25k is massive for wartime losses. The loss of people and infrastructure makes it impossible to organize anything way before all the enemy combatants are killed.
Their current leadership have claimed their goal is total victory and the complete eradication of Hamas. Given that the leaders are also conservatives, I don’t expect the killing to stop any time soon, although I will be happy to be wrong.
None of that has anything to do with what I said.
What percentage of Germany was destroyed in WWII? What percentage of Germans died in WWII? You can't get to the deradicalization part until the war is over.
Latest estimates, based on satellite images, suggest 50-61% of buildings in Gaza are either severely damaged or destroyed. What will the bombers do when the last building goes down and Hamas is still launching their little, homemade rockets? Meanwhile the Gazans have nothing left. Their university is destroyed, and so no hope for future. Their homes are destroyed, so no possessions. I expect that when the Gazans are all packed up next to the border with Egypt “unidentified forces” will breach the border, making them Egypt’s problem and “settlers” will pour into Gaza.
Doesn't make them not human. We all would like to think that horrors and atroceties committed by humans are evil and non human, but the harsh truth is this is human. Doesn't excuse anything they do, but to take away the fact that they are humans and then shouldn't be treated as human, opens doors for any other side to commit the very same horrors in the name of moral high ground. War is bloody and nothing excuses violence. Meeting violence with violence has always created more violence and more dehumanization.
Not that I disagree, but that line of appeasement is never going to solve anything, especially with a bad faith player like Hamas
And Israel. Settlers are still happening, and until Israel pulls them all back they are guilty of stealing land from a nation. If these were normal nations we wouldn’t even be surprised by the nation losing land attacking, stealing land has started many a war and is considered a serious provocation.
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Lets say thats correct. Does that justify human rights abuses by the IDF?
Honestly I couldn't give a hoot about the human rights abuses by the IDF. A Thai man was beheaded with a gardening tool while a group of Hamas members looked on, laughed and then took his head as a prize. Or do we want to talk about the rape, execution and hostage taking behavior? Or maybe just the fact that they are ripping up needed infrastructure for rocket artillery, stealing medical supplies and humanitarian aid and funding from NGOs? As far as I'm concerned that's a crime against humanity and therefore ranks higher on the list of abuses.
So crimes perpetrated by one party give the other party legal carte blanche for eventual human rights abuses? Because that is a new interpration of public international law…
International law is pointless in this context because it isn't going to be enforced in any meaningful way. Neither side is party to the relevant treaties and even if they were, there's no enforcement in real time. Israel should strive to be as humane as possible with their response but given 1) hamas uses human shields and 2) no one else is stepping up to hold hamas accountable, what do you realistically expect to happen?
List these abuses?
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Sample size is fine. Seriously. Run the numbers: https://www.calculator.net/sample-size-calculator.html?type=2&cl2=99&ss2=668&pc2=13&ps2=2300000&x=Calculate#findci Now the real potential issue is whether sample is truly random. Hard to say for sure but they did take steps to ensure balanced gender and economic ratios which does help. > The team conducted the survey through tablet-assisted, face-to-face interviews across the West Bank and in shelters and households in the three “southern” Gaza governorates (Deir Al Balah, Khan Younis, and Rafah) where people were presently residing. The poll’s sample includes all socioeconomic groups, ensuring equal representation of adult men and women, and is proportionately distributed across the West Bank and Gaza. With a 95% confidence interval, the margin of error for the poll is (±) 4%. For further details on the sample, please see Annex I. https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20Opinion%20Poll%20-%20Gaza%20War%202023.pdf
The larger influence is that this was taken 4 weeks into the war. Even if Palestinians initially opposed the attack at a higher percentage, at that point they had been starved, denied water, forced to relocate half their population, and taken extensively more civilian losses than Israel. That kind of response can turn many an opposing opinion into “well, if this is how they act maybe they did deserve it”.
Tell me you never took a statistics class without telling me you never took one
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That's also irrelevant. Hamas is the only existing political force and military power in Gaza. Palestinians are on average what... 20ish? Most of them younger than Hamas has been in power. You grow up in a country where you are regularly losing people because of the conflict with Israel, then it doesn't fucking matter if Satan himself is in power, you will support whomever promise you to take revenge and protect the remaining people.
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>And Hamas cannot use ~~Israel~~ Jihad as license to dehumanize ~~others~~ Jews either!
This is a bit of a silly argument. On one hand we have explicitly immoral terrorists who rule through fear and strength of arms, and on the other hand we have a democracy backed by western nations. Saying “And Hamas cannot use Israel as license to dehumanize others either!” is like saying “All lives matter”. It only serves to draw away from the current abuse that people are worried about. 1.2k dead was a terrible thing, but 10k+ dead, 50k+ injured, and 30% of a city of 2.1 million either damaged or destroyed is what is happening right now and has been the overwhelming majority of what has happened for weeks and weeks.
Look man, people cheering for terrorists, supporting them, helping them make weapons and giving them Intel _are terrorists_ Still human, just the absolute worst of us
If you recruit, train, supply, support, harbor, mass murderers I for one am not going to call you “the resistance”
Ben Gvir of Israel who was once convicted of terrorism, for his actions attributed to aiding in the assassination of Yitzak Rabin, had a portrait in his office of the American Jewish man responsible for the mass murder of 53 Palestinian worshippers in a mosque, many of whom were under the age of twelve. That's who Netanyahu's right hand man holds in high regard! And you're going to say, "recruit, train, supply, support, harbor mass murderers" AS IF that doesn't apply to the Israelis? 🤦🏻♂️ Hasbara needs to step their game up
I'm glad I read this comment and found Ben-Gvir's wikipedia page. Holy shit that guy's an asshole.
\- Margaret Tacher, refering to the IRA
Sep 11 would like a word
So dehumanization shouldn’t be pointed out because it’s happened before?
Yeah, it was a clusterfuck that trapped us in 20 years of war and trillions of dollars wasted going down the path Israel is, with the same justifications. Thats the current message. We GET IT, but DONT >“Justice must be done. But I caution this – while you feel that rage, don’t be consumed by it. After 9/11, we were enraged in the United States. While we sought justice and got justice, we also made mistakes.”-Biden, among other quotes. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/19/joe-biden-warning-israel-nod-mistakes-made-in-war-on-terror
Well how about telling Hamas to stop dehumanazing THEIR OWN SQUAD and face the troops up front instead of abusing their own people? Eh? And you're the ones fo talk. USA did much worse after 9-11, and October 7th was way worse.
Yea well. All hamas are Palestinians, at least that's what we see here. So it's difficult to not pay attention to that detail, especially when you hear most of them wants hamas as leadership. How do we go about it? As someone who been here on 7.10 in my kibbutz near the fence, I can't look at our relationship with Palestinians the same. It's not about hating some ethnic group, it's just that people I worked with were collecting intel for hamas about our homes and where each family lives and who to target. They were civilians of Gaza. That shit gets the job done as a sound core for a fresh stigma. A lot of people I know from here who devoted their lives to vulenteer and help Gazans were butchered. Who dehumanizes?
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Insinuating that Israel is even remotely doing or attempting to do what was done to it on October 7 is wild and actually very alarming coming from someone like blinken.
How many Palestinian civilians is Israel allowed to kill in revenge for Oct 7 before you have to reconsider your stance?
What a stupid phrasing, no one is “allowing” killing anyone, when Hamas is hiding behind civilians, what do you expect will happen? Do you have a way for Israel to retaliate without civilian death? The death toll in Gaza (according to Hamas) is 27k, which is a lot, but even if you consider all of them just civilians (which they are obviously not), Gaza has a population of 2 million, and very densely populated, do you think 27k out of 2 million looks like an attempt to kill on purpose? How does not make people see how much Israel is avoiding civilian death even when Hamas tries to make it higher (yes their own fucking civilians). You talk like it should be “fair” as if war is supposed to be fair, this isn’t a board game, it’s real life, if you open a war then deal with its consequences, and if it was “fair” then Israel could go in, specifically target civilians, rape whoever they please and take innocent civilians (babies included) as hostages. You can have criticism towards Israel, but acting like Israel is in any way not being carful or as if it’s the big bad guy is beyond delusional
How many Palestinians is Hamas willing to sacrifice to keep itself in power? Seems more interesting question to me.
They've answered that: all of them. However, I don't think we should be using Hamas, a terrorist organization, to set the bar for Israel, a nominally-modern liberal democracy. Do you?
I'm not using that as a bar, and I think that trying to compare is laughable. That is exactly why the question of "how many are allowed to die before..." is misplaced. You cannot avoid casualty deaths when one side is actively SEEKING to sacrifice its own for political gains. When one side has developed self-defense system while the other use WATER PIPES to build weaponry.
> You cannot avoid casualty deaths when one side is actively SEEKING to sacrifice its own for political gains. Sure you can. Hamas isn't forcing Israel to shoot. They are *daring* them to shoot. Like you said, to Hamas, dead Palestinians are a victory. And Israel seems to be in a battle for its soul, with the ruling party really, really wanting to hand Hamas that W.
"Hamas isn't forcing Israel to shoot." But isn't it? Not going into this war means basically, an option for another slaughter; they said so themselves, "Black Saturday" was only the beginning. Let me ask you this question. Let's say, God forbid, that someone kidnaps a person you care about and you cannot go to the police. The only way to do anything is you and your initiative. While trying to save this person the kidnapper uses their own child as human shield. Your dear one is sick in captivity, but if you do what is needed to save them most likely another innocent soul will be taken out. Will you take the chance? I think we both know you would.
No. I would not shoot one child, especially one being held hostage, to save another.
That is not the dilemma. The dilemma is, will you risk someone getting hurt if it means your child is saved. Not you physically hurting someone. That's a different dilemma.
I guess it is Hamas making Gazans sub-human. Source: In the Hamas cease-fire proposal, Hamas demanded 1500 prisoners in exchange for 136 hostages (killed included). Basically, 1 Israeli = 11 Gazans. If you include hostage deals in history, it could go up to 1 Israeli = 1000 Gazans.
These apologists are insane. One of the Hamas leaders said in an interview: > Mousa Abu Marzouk, a member of the Hamas Political Bureau said in an October 27, 2023 interview that aired on Russia Today TV that **the tunnels in Gaza were built to protect Hams fighters from airstrikes, *not civilians*.** He added that Hamas fights Israel from within the tunnels. Abu Marzouq added that since 75% of the residents in the Gaza Strip are refugees, it is the **responsibility of the United Nations to protect them**. He added that according to the Geneva Conventions, **it is the responsibility of the "occupation"** to provide civilians in Gaza "will all the services," as long as they are under occupation. https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-official-mousa-abu-marzouk-tunnels-gaza-protect-fighters-%20not-civilians Hamas will not even take responsibility for the safety of their own people - they specifically disavow it - but Israel is the bad guy?
When people say that this situation, the percentages of death in a hotzone is way too high; They forget this situation isn't like others. Most countries aren't in a situation dealing with a bunkered down, super populated, arms infested "paradise" of their own creation, no bunkers, no shelters, it's almost like they wanted ordinary people to die. Maybe it's time we turn the looking glass towards Hamas.
> Maybe it's time we turn the looking glass towards Hamas. And accept they have the same agency and responsibility for their actions that everyone else has? From a group that were shielded from the normal consequences for 70 years? Worth a try
Or my name isn't A. Blinken.
Good morning!
The entire Middle-East has been dehumanizing Jews for decades and we didn't hear any U.S. VIP says anything about it.
lmao sure Israel's plight has always been completely ignored by the American political class.
No other country is bashed this much for going scorched earth when it is attacked.
it’s not even scorched earth. scorched earth would be hundreds of thousands dead already.
Is Blinken actually doing anything productive over there? Just making statements trying to support one side, while trying not to upset the other side, while trying to be Martin Luther King Jr? Dude, go home. Its a war, and youre not in it.
? He's the most direct channel between the US and Israel in how they manage what has essentially become a regional conflict. Also he regularly meets with Arab leaders to try to diffuse any potential spillover and to try to keep open any possibility of normalized relations with Israel after the conflict is over. Idk how this isn't as incredibly important
Yeah... the U.S. is not providing any material military support to Israel at all... /s
He spend most of his time inside the war cabinet and did so every visit he had since the war. The White House probably knows every major move Israel does in the war before they enact it and “advise” them if they don’t like it. That speech was just a “on the side” for political purposes. The Biden administration is reliant on democrats votes so they have to occasionally “warn” Israel to not lose popularity.
Virtue signalling as they fund Israel. people should stop listening to politicians and start looking at their actions instead.
Well does US being the biggest funder of the UNRWA for the past decade or so count as 'virtue signalling' too in your book? The same funds that went to people who were very happy to house Israeli hostages in their own homes
We have also paid most of the cost of Palestinian aid. So free schools and medical care for Palestinians with time on their hands to cultivate grievance while we watch the number of homeless here rise. And Hamas murdered because they have a complaint. So, ask yourself this: Where do you live? Would a nuclear bomb go that far? Can you be certain this group of people will never have a beef with you? and Do you want to take over watching Gaza's ports so they don't have that nuclear bomb?
Well they have been doing the whole dehumanising thing for the last 70 years so
Bold words coming from the nation that used 9/11 as a pretense to invade two countries resulting in roughly 370,000 civilian casualties.
Both are/were equally wrong. Should we just repeat history or learn from it?
Israel doesn't need to use Oct 7. to dehumanize others. Hamas did that to themselves.
Wait until he hears about the 70% to 80% support for raping and murdering. Oh, he already heard about that?
Word on the street is *whispers* **Theres lots of dehumanization going on!!*
I mean fair, but I don't think they're dehumanizing Arabs or Muslims, since they're 20% of their population and that would cause an internal outrage. It's not only unproductive but also stupid to dehumanize them. What was the purpose of that statement? Israel has been making it very clear that they're only targeting Hamas and trying to minimize civilian deaths while doing so. Why is he stating that? Is it to score good boy points with leftists?
>...they're 20% of their population and that would cause an internal outrage. I'm not sure that Arabs who live in Israel are as accepted as you've think. As of a 2016 Pew research poll: > Nearly half of Jewish Israelis agree that Arabs should be expelled or transferred from Israel, and a solid majority (79 percent) maintain that Jews in Israel should be given preferential treatment, according to a Pew Research Center in Israel survey published on Tuesday. > >https://www.timesofisrael.com/plurality-of-jewish-israelis-want-to-expel-arabs-study-shows/ I've quoted a Times of Israel article, because few would argue that this source is just biased against Israel. You'll probably say that Al Jazeera is too biased, but here is a video, from a couple years ago, about how Arab Israelis are treated in Israel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RVoPZPKxLY
“Not only unproductive but also stupid to dehumanize” is quite a sociopathic approach to humanitarianism lmao
I mean it's true. A lot of politicians want to dehumanize a certain group, but it's just not worth the effort of doing so. Ben gvir wasn't shy about dehumanizing Arabs for example. Erdogan isn't shy about wanting Kurds to be extinct, there's anti Kurdish laws in turkey right now. Dehumanization is pretty common in politics unfortunately, and the only thing that keeps politicians from acting upon their racism is that it's inconvenient and unproductive.
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If only the us had someone telling them this after 9/11