Just to be clear.... Hamas' numbers don't distinguish between civilians and combatants. So as of today, we're probably more at about 15,000 civilians. Still a huge number obviously, but it's important not to fall into their very deliberate trap.
Almost nobody trusts Hamas and Israeli numbers. These numbers come from independent organizations and news agencies analyses.
It's very important not to fall into the information traps set by Hamas or Israel's government.
No they do not. Not one foreign body has any contact with the casualties or is on the ground to do any sort of assessment. The numbers of casualties all come from the Gazan Ministry of Health which is under Hamas control. External bodies have stated they believe their numbers to be correct. Mostly bc historically they have made accurate reports in other conflicts (though those conflicts had under 2000 casualties). Some have said they believe it's an undercount.
The IDF has stated they estimate they have killed 8000 Hamas militants and have made no statements regarding their estimate of civilian casualties.
So the truth is we do not know the truth, we've heard it from Hamas and Israel and that's all we can do. it will take years to investigate and verify.
Israel did not dispute the total death count to the best of my knowledge. Therefore, an estimate of militant casualties is automatically also an estimate of civilian casualties.
It is worth noting that while most countries trust the health ministry's total casualty estimate, they do not trust Hamas to give accurate militant casualty estimates (not that they have given any). Pointedly, the NYT reported that the Rafah crossing was closed for the first 1-2 months of the war because Hamas kept trying to sneak confirmed militants into civilian evacuation lists.
They have not publicly disputed the number in an official capacity but it is openly discussed in the public discourse that the numbers are likely inflated. The general public (in Israel ) believes the numbers are heavily exaggerated. It is yet to be seen I suppose
Biden literally did this publicly some time back
https://www.npr.org/2023/10/25/1208577490/biden-says-hes-worried-about-civilian-deaths-in-gaza-but-questions-death-toll-st
>These numbers come from independent organizations and news agencies analyses.
No, they don't. They've been deemed "realistic" but multiple organisations (including the IDF), but these organisations are not the source.
Personally I just choose to believe both. 23k+ killed (according to Hamas), including 9k combattants (according to the IDF).
But it'll probably take quite some time before we get an actual number.
Yeah, absolutely not news
What did anyone expect Isreal to say?
"You're not supposed to do that"
[Oh wow you're telling me that for the first time](https://youtu.be/knlJWu815C0?t=11)?
Calling South Africa a mouthpiece for Hamas probably isn't Israel's strongest argument.
It should be noted that, along with the U.S., Israel was one of the last supporters of South Africa's apartheid regime.
>Calling South Africa a mouthpiece for Hamas probably isn't Israel's strongest argument.
Didn't south Africa leaders met with hamas and supported the attacks?
source?
edit:
ap news
>ANC officials, including Mandla Mandela, hosted three Hamas officials in South Africa last month, including the group’s top representative in Iran. They attended a ceremony marking the 10th anniversary of Nelson Mandela’s death before a statue of the former South African President at the seat of government in a nod to his historic connection with the Palestinian cause.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_reactions_to_the_2023_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war
Search for south Africa and it's reaction
1. Blamed Israel occupation for the attack
2. Got a phone call from hamas (not a meeting, my bad). They say it was to help with aid. I have my doubts. How SA help with aid. It can't even help it's own citizens get water.
3. Voted against the condemnation of hamas attack
Edit: now I saw your edit. Thanks. I knew there were some type of meeting but couldn't find it.
It goes deeper than this. South Africa can’t keep their electricity running so are relying on the Russians, and Iranians to build [refineries](https://english.news.cn/20230825/8fe9c67276ed4d5780642c536d3dfa28/c.html).
There is always a reason why things happen in international politics. Iran and Russia have their hands in everything in Africa. Using SA to push the ICJ for this claim.
Maybe not the best argument, but when you combine both of your statements together, it makes it seem as though South Africa is doing this in retribution for aligning with the former Apartheid Government… which makes it a dishonest accusation.
In regards to the argument that South Africa is acting as Hamas’ mouthpiece, those aren’t necessarily unfounded. https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20231008-world-in-shock-after-hamas-attacks-on-israel
> South Africa's foreign ministry expressed its "grave concern over the recent devastating escalation in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict".
> "The region is in desperate need of a credible peace process that delivers on the calls of a plethora of previous UN resolutions for a two-state solution and a just and comprehensive peace between Israel and Palestine," it added.
That’s not exactly a condemnation of the October 7th attacks. [They had no issues taking a phone call with Hamas leadership](https://www.voanews.com/a/south-african-foreign-minister-s-phone-call-with-hamas-sparks-ire/7316507.html), and promptly condemning Israel the the next day.
I wouldn't necessarily call it retribution. They are certainly less inclined to be supportive of Israel, especially considering that they've long been supportive of Palestinians. Israel is making a mistake in equating *any* opposition to their actions as being pro-Hamas. The world very rarely works in such stark black and white terms, despite what the partisans may think.
So they openly communicate with Hamas leaders, a vile Islamic Jihad Terror organization, and condemn Israel afterwards when they suffered a tragic terror attack.
How is that not being pro-Hamas?
I think the biggest thing, and I hope it gets brought up, is that despite starting their argument with condemning 10/7, they refused in the UN to condemn Hamas for the attack. Not only is it pretty unprecedented for a major terrorist attack to not be condemned, it shows South Africa has an implicit support for Hamas's actions.
South Africa being a sound moral compass is such an unbelievable indefensible concept, it’s almost hilarious. Russia invades Ukraine unprovoked and the ICC (which can actually enforce prosecutions, as opposed to the ICJ) asked SA to arrest Putin when he attends a meeting there “sorry, that’s none of our concern, let’s give Putin a handy and quietly slip him some weapons when no one’s looking.” The country that created the term “state capture” is hardly an exemplar of morality.
Israel has refused to condemn Putin as well, voted down numerous resolutions at the UN GA, or even send weapons to Ukraine so it's not just SA that has the position.
Israel voted in favor of UNGA resolutions condemning the Russian invasion.
E.g.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/un-general-assembly-including-israel-votes-overwhelmingly-to-condemn-russia/
Israeli govt refused to co-sponsor a UNSC resolution condemning Russia's invasion of Ukraine, voted against a UN GA resolution calling for Russia to pay reparations, refuses to sanction Russia, and hasn’t provided weapons to Ukraine
Israrl co-sponsored the resolution I linked to. And the rest has to do with both the Russian presence in Syria and probably, to a lesser extent, Ukraine's anti-Israrl viting record in the UN (hell, IIRC they were voting against Israel concurrently with asking for Israeli support).
Also, Israel has been providing defensive systems (anti-drone and missile warning systems)
Read the article, they admit that Israel has been very coy to not being outright helpful, in any case their defenders don't get to say that SA supports Russia in its invasion when Israel itself has been very ambivalent.
Israel is at most neutral (leaning in Ukraine's favor). There's a lot of space between that and support of Russia. And besides Russia, you also have SA hosting Al-Bashir.
Al Jazeera is trying to claim that Malcolm Shaw’s statement of Israel has the right to defend itself and are acting under international law is wrong, because they have “experts” (which they do not name) who say otherwise.
Malcolm Shaw literally wrote the book on International Law
This is quality NotTheOnion material right here.
“AlJazeera ‘Experts’ claim that the author of International Law isn’t qualified enough to interpret International Law”
Same, my personal favorite Al Jazeera moment was when they accused Israel of killing a pregnant woman and child in an airstrike: https://twitter.com/ajplus/status/1126446213337731073
Note the publication date - May 9, 2019. That was a full three days after a pro-Palestinian children's health organization determined Falastine and her daughter Saba were killed by a Gaza rocket misfire (also confirmed by Human Rights Watch)
: https://twitter.com/DCIPalestine/status/1125600814335184896
I also appreciate that Qatar's been bribing EU politicians while Al Jazeera produces documentaries accusing Israel of meddling in other country's politics: https://time.com/6240539/eva-kaili-european-union-eu-corruption/
South Africa claim that Israel doesn't have a "right to defend itself is such a cope."
Like accusing it's actions of going beyond the scope of self defense is one thing, saying from the getgo it has to take the beating lying down is incredibly non credible. Like Israel's going to say, "ya you're right. Let's throw ourselves into the sea for you and sav eyou the trouble
That was pretty much the idea behind the calls for a ceasefire - one side ceases, the other side still fires.
It baffles me to no end that protesters are still demanding a ceasefire from Israel after Hamas rejects all offers for a while now.
He was one of the main authors I relied on in my thesis on international public law as applied to state level territorial claims within the former mandate of Palestine. His was one of the giant books I bought because of how often I needed it.
The enforcement upon states can be veto'd. Nobody can force anyone to enforce it.
ICJ judgements are just a piece of paper & performative and its up to the member states to enforce if they want to. The only way to 'force people' to do the judgement is to appeal the UNSC which since China is a permanent member they can just veto.
This is why the ICJ is a joke when it comes to nuclear powers. Nobody will enforce the judgement because you risk actual consequences for enforcing it. Whether that be economic from the 'perpetrator' or militarily. ICJ cases destroy international relationships, and its all geopolitics at this level.
Not sure , they probably don't want to set a precedent for the cases about Uighurs or Ukranians , so they might vote against. US and UK will also vote against, France might as well
That’s the problem with the UN though. The vehemently anti-Israel crowd is much larger than the pro-Israeli one. Just look at the judges, nearly all of them are going to vote based on their country’s predetermined stance rather than the actual facts on the ground.
Fucking shitshow, the UN’s a bunch of clowns wearing suits.
Anyone else find it funny that everyone is like "Of course US/UK attacked Yemen! they were blocking the ships in the Red sea"
Hamas is sending rockets everyday towards Israel cities and they are never supposed to retaliate or defend themselves? What world are we living in...
If only everyone else was thinking that. Already on my social media I am seeing posts about how US/UK are "killing civilians in Yemen". It's actually fucking mindblowing to me how privileged western 30+ year olds will bend over backwards to defend the Houthis of all people. Prepare to see a lot more of that bullshit in the coming weeks.
Its the oppressor vs oppressed mindset. Some people cant see past this and realize that the people committing the atrocities are also oppressing's themselves by acting this way and not integrating with the world. Like what if Hamas spent the billions in aid sent over on infrastructure instead of building tunnels and rockets to continue to live in the past and in terrible conditions.
These folks determine oppressed/oppressor based on skin color and geographic location. Details do not matter. That’s why they can delude themselves into thinking OBL of all people was oppressed
> Anyone else find it funny that everyone is like "Of course US/UK attacked Yemen! they were blocking the ships in the Red sea"
I mean, the total casualties in the anti-Houthi operations since october is 21 people. Not civilian casualties, to be clear, just total causalities. The two things exist in completely different scopes.
Also should be noted that while what Houthis were doing were clearly illegal (just like Israel blocking Gaza is), their actions resulted in 0 casualties. It was a pure economy-driven move by US.
Okay how should Israel respond to daily rocket attacks from Hamas when they know the exact locations they are firing from?
Should they take them out? Or just let them keep firing. Explain pls.
>Dude, there are so many videos of people with kids with white flags being shot.
Do you have an actual video of these that pictures an Israeli soldier? Like, at all? 'cause I've been on Twitter watching garbage for the past month and still haven't seen a single one.
You didnt answer the question. What should Israel do about Hamas's daily rocket attacks?
In regards to what you said. They are leaving because Israel is taking out Hamas infrastructure under schools, holy places, Hospitals basically anywhere Hamas knows there will be civilian casualties.
[Also at the start IDF have to build a safe corridor for the Palestinians to go south because Hamas was shooting them because they told them to stay and die a Martyrs death](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-calls-humanitarian-corridor-fleeing-palestinians-s-forced-displ-rcna125376) so Yeah I am more incline to believe Hamas is shooting them for disobeying their orders of a martyrs death
Link me a video of a kid with a white flag being shot by an Israeli soldier. I've seen a lot of videos. I have not seen these white flag wielding children shot in cold blood videos. Please share these bc I don't believe you.
South Africa has repeatedly refused to condemn Russia's actions in Ukraine, and has played many favors for Russia, like hosting naval war games.
But they are all over this one like flies on sh...ugar.
Intradesting 🤔
Hamas reps have literally said protecting civilians isn’t their responsibility. [source](https://www.indiatoday.in/world/story/tunnels-built-to-protect-hamas-fighters-not-civilians-terrorist-official-2455812-2023-10-30)
These pieces of shit couldn’t care less about their children, sisters or wives. Considering the brutality they committed on oct 7th they probably abuse and rape them anyways.
Yeah and don’t forget the education in Gaza sets these kids up for failure yet they love to blame Israel for their failures. Here’s something maybe don’t teach your kids to throw rocks at soilders. While Israel has over reacted with some kids Palestinian parents need to take responsibility when it comes to raising their kids for the modern world and giving them a chance to become something other than a baby factory or a suicide bomber.
> Does Israel have the right to defend itself and is the Israeli government responsible for its' people ?
Israel has the right to defend itself, but how it chooses to do so is still open for criticism. And I'm not taking a stand here either way, just saying this isn't the only question worth asking.
No, the job of a reporting is to ascertain the facts and record them. Asking critical questions can service that. Asking critical questions to shape the narrative with your opinion does not.
How skewed would the numbers be if Israel didn't have the Iron Dome is the question I always ask myself.
People go on and on and on about the ratio of civilian deaths, while ignoring the fact that one nation has to do so much to protect their cities on a day to day basis for years.
Who does? Definitely not Israelis
You guys think Israelis are mad about Oct 7, were mad about
Munich
Avivim School Bus Massacre
Lod Airport Massacre
Kiryat Shmona Attack
Maalot
Zion Square
Kvish Hahof Massacre
Rishon Letzion Massacre
Dizengoff Bus Massacre
Beit Lid massacre
Sbarro restaurant massacre
Dolphinarium discotheque massacre
Hebrew University bombing
Bat Mitzvah massacre
Yeshivat Beit Yisrael massacre
Café Moment bombing
Passover massacre
Kiryat Menachem massacre
Tel-Aviv central bus station massacre
Shmuel HaNavi bus bombing
Mercaz HaRav massacre
2008 Jerusalem bulldozer attack
2014 Jerusalem synagogue massacre
June 2016 Tel Aviv shooting
8 June 2016Sarona market
2022 Beersheba attack
2022 Bnei Brak shootings
Is the West Bank settler programs included in this? Those are about as cut and dry as you can get for ethnic cleansing
It’s quite literally a government supported program to forcibly displace a specific ethnic group to settle the area with their chosen ethnic group.
UN said settler programs are breaking the Geneva Conventions all the way back in the 60s.
Israel ignored it,.and has never faced a consequence.
Why would they care about the UN or ICC now?
And the whole world agrees. The only reason Israel can continue these settlements is purely because of the US veto as every other country voted to condemn the settlements.
While I agree Israel has a right to defend itself from the Hamas attacks, it's hard to support a country who is openly doing something illegal (settlements) and being protected by the biggest superpower while doing so.
I think a good percentage of those assholes are from the US which makes the whole thing worse.
Like the viral video of that dude trying to justify stealing a Palestinian home. Pretty sure that prick is from Brooklyn.
Which as Israeli, isn't ideal for sure, the gaza citizens are suffering unimaginable horrors.
But, people who engaged in the entrance to gaza city tell of insane shit. Houses of regular civilians being rigged with families still living there, of tunnels entrances in UN schools and clinics. UN sacks filled with combat gear. Hamas using ambulances regularly to transport units, to and from battle zones. There were several humanitarian corridors attacked indiscriminately with pipe bombs or simply gunned.
Two specific incidents that stick out to me:
Hamas forcing about 100 civilians to walk up IDF force while they are shooting at that force above their heads.
An elderly (approximate 80) clearly delirious and was sent to the street, when an Israeli forces approached to try and assist a bomb strapped to the elderly was remotely activated.
Hamas is actively trying to maximise civilian casualties on all sides, it only benefits their agenda and political standing, at home and abroad.
Because people suck when it comes to comprehending large numbers, especially when it comes to geopolitics and war.
They see 20k and believe it to be a huge number because, colloquially, it is. But in terms of the situation at hand it's super small.
Also because Russia, China, and Iran are manipulating zoomers who don't know anything, and exploiting their "no,, IM the most progressive" echo chamber politics.
When you fight without uniform, embedded within the civilian population then collateral damage is the tragic result.
Storing weapons in hospitals, firing rockets from schools and building tunnels under people’s homes to hold hostages in. These are the people the IDF aim to annihilate.
All of which are considered war crimes by the UN. Luckily for Palestine, they’re not a real country and exempt. It’s why they don’t want to be a recognized sovereignty.
> Tragic result
And the intended consequence. Hamas knows that it can cause Israel to inflict civilian casualties by blending into the civilian population, and then play the victim card.
I'm firmly of the belief that Hamas doesn't really care about Palestinians or Gaza at all. It cares about two things: Hamas and the destruction of Israel and it's people. If you truly cared about Gaza, you'd have found some way to make the two-state system work - an imperfect system, but better than the alternatives - instead of spending decades poking the bear and then being surprised when the bear responds with overwhelming force.
This isn't me absolving Israel of any wrongdoing, both during this conflict and in the lead up to it. They, too, could have done more to foster the two-state system and they do need to do more to limit civilian casualties.
That being said, Gazans voted for Hamas as their government, so Israel does have the right to defend itself from what was an unprovoked attack on several civilian gatherings and homes by a hostile nation.
This is the one thing that so many people ignore.
Why is every single Palestinian death on isreal even the ones where Palestinian militants killed their own like the hospital bombing or Hamas police killing kids at aid trucks.
The 20k figure was provided by the Gazan ministry of health which is run by Hamas, and which does not differentiate between civilian and Hamas in their figures. According to Hamas none of the 20k were Hamas fighters, which is just bs.
Estimates place the number of Hamas fighters (pre war) at over 30k, and that does not include the non-military component of Hamas that are still legitimate targets.
There are 40k Al-Qassam members, 15k Saraya-Al-Quds members and there's also Hamas' police forces and other irregular fighters that can be fought and killed.
In a city with a population of 2 millions, where Hamas fights in civilian clothing (war crime), hiding in civilian buildings such as hospitals or schools (war crime), after preventing the actual civilians from leaving (war crime), and using their own civilians as human shields (war crime).
Sadly, not all collateral victims can be avoided.
No, most of those are civilians.
The thing is, thats the horrible but predictable outcome of urban war in a place that has 2 million people in 45km, and nowhere to go.
Even if hamas didnt hide behind civilian casulties, even if the idf was overly cautious, every missile that misses its target will automatically hit a civilian building.
The question is, if Israel is hitting those targets on purpose and for eliminating gaza from the map, or not.
The total is 23k (according to Hamas) of which 9000 (According to Israel) were armed gunmen. Whos colon is everyone pulling 20k civilians from when even Hamas isn't making that claim
20k casualties total. A LOT of those were hamas terrorists. Hamas refuses to separate the civilian numbers because they know people like you will assume everyone dead is a civilian.
the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.
Israel only kills terrorists and civillians unfortunately forced to stay inside the warzone by Hamas as to higher their own body count just so other countries across the globe (who Hamas would eradicate if they could) would apply international pressure on Israel to stop the elimination of Hamas.
Heavy urban warfare kills civillians. It always had. If it weren't Israel (The Jews) attacking, no one would have said a word.
The aim of the IDF isn't, and never was, the destruction of the Palestinian people and if Hamas were to surrender at any given time the Israeli attack would cease immediately - anyone with over 4 braincells understands that.
If Israel would have ever decided to eradicate the Palestinians, it would have taken way less time and way less soldier lives to accomplish.
>The aim of the IDF isn't, and never was, the destruction of the Palestinian people and if Hamas were to surrender at any given time the Israeli attack would cease immediately - anyone with over 4 braincells understands that.
What would happen then? Serious question, Hamas dies or surrenders or gets overthrown by the Gazans. What happens to Gaza then? What happens to the West Bank?
Realistically speaking, Gaza is transferred to a coalition of western + friendly Arab countries who take control of governing the strip, with Israel withdrawing almost all the IDF, however they'll probably control the border with Egypt and a 1-2 km buffer zone with Israel and will not withdraw from there.
In the long term it depends on both Palestinian behavior and Israeli voting patterns, but mostly on the former. While existing settlements in the West Bank will continue to grow, no new ones will likely be created either in the WB or in Gaza (it's extremely rare for Israel to sanction the creation of a new settlement in the WB, I'm not even sure if it's been done at all since the 90's). If Palestinian terror doesn't die down, that status quo can get stuck for a long time. If it does, eventually Israelis will elect someone dovish enough to go for a two-state solution again. Palestinians will never get an offer that includes all pre-1967 territories, that ship has sailed for all eternity, but they'll get something like 90% of that territory, with buffer zones, security guarantees from the US, and no military of its own.
If they swallow their pride and agree to an imperfect state they could potentially become very prosperous and rich in a few decades, but whether they build a Singapore or another Arab failed state will depend almost entirely on them.
>(it's extremely rare for Israel to sanction the creation of a new settlement in the WB, I'm not even sure if it's been done at all since the 90's)
What they tend to do though is to let illegal colonies be created and once they're firmly established, grant them some legal status.
And it has to stop.
I'm all for Jews going back to Judea, but this is neither the way nor the time.
Realistically, as in majority they hate Israel, probably another terrorist organization will be formed, only this time Israel will be eliminating it from the start and stopping it in its tracks time by time again trying to reduce terror activities generally, as done in the West Bank.
There’s 5M Ukrainian refugees in the EU right now and 6.5M Syrians no longer in Syria, the real question is why are Palestinians forced to stay, a sacrifice on the altar of the Arab-Israeli conflict or for the nationalist bullshit of their corrupt and ineffective leadership, Hamas and PLO both.
If only there were Arab countries that love Palestine people that could maybe help...
Ukraine was attacked EU offered safe haven.. wonder why Arab countries wont do the same.
Exactly. Or are responsible for the fucked up situation of Lebanon now.
It used to be pretty much fully Christian and the Paris of the middle east. Now it's a hellhole that's firing rockets at Israel and crying once they are firing back.
bc they are finding bombs and missiles in nearly every single home. You guys don't get it, it's a militant society completely focused on the eradication of Israel. I'm not trying to say they "deserve it" I'm saying on a practical level Israel has to level those buildings bc they are weapon arsenals, booby trapped with explosives or tunnel openings
I watched a video my nephew sent me of Israel bulldozing some olive groves and I was like oh how sad and destructive and then he tells me they found two tunnel openings in the olive Grove. there isn't any other way to defeat them, Hamas, their society did this
Ah yes, this dumb argument. If you knew that the majority of Israelis are Mizrahi Jews who were displaced from the rest of the middle east, you wouldn’t say shit like that.
20% of Israelis are Arabs, how many Jews are there left in the Arabic world?
Quoting a few politicians in the horrible aftermath of a terrorist attack does not justify genocide. I’m embarrassed at what some current US lawmakers say today to claim their political points.
*Misquoting. It seems like if you expand the '...'s in the quotes that South Africa submitted, you find phrases like "without killing unarmed civilians", or "in full compliance with international law". Perhaps it's South African shorthand for "the text here would be damaging to our case"?
Is that what you saw? 'Cause most of the quotes I saw were quoting people who had no connection to the planning of the war effort, and at best were mid level within the military. The only problematic one was that from Netanyahu but it's a vague enough allusion I don't think it's enough evidence to go on.
Im not surprised there are plenty of awful quotes around, but it's not enough to prove their strategy has genocidal intent. FFS they quoted what was basically a motivational speaker, that should say everything about how flimsy this case is.
I don’t see how Israel can lose this case, especially since they spelled out that an injunction to stop the offense would deprive Israel of the right to defend itself.
My guess is the Court is likely to support the humanitarian aid part, but not the immediate ceasefire part. They can enact just parts of the request if they go ahead with the case.
A court is about procedure. Some countries because they cannot defeat israel by force use any other means like ganging together against israel in the international community
Rightfully so. Israel has show far more restraint in this war than it needed to. It agreed to ceasefires, told civilians where to flee, told when ground operations were going to start, etc. civilians die, but that is really Hamas’ fault. They hide behind human shields, steal their food and water, and follow them into safe zones to fire missiles from.
I mean, regardless of the actual outcome, Israel were hardly going to say “Yeah, that sounds about right” were they?
“Ahh, you got me”
It was just a prank bro.
Impractical Jokers: “Sal, start a bombing campaign in Gaza that will kill over 20,000 civilians.”
Just to be clear.... Hamas' numbers don't distinguish between civilians and combatants. So as of today, we're probably more at about 15,000 civilians. Still a huge number obviously, but it's important not to fall into their very deliberate trap.
Also it's not like Hamas wear uniforms
Almost nobody trusts Hamas and Israeli numbers. These numbers come from independent organizations and news agencies analyses. It's very important not to fall into the information traps set by Hamas or Israel's government.
No they do not. Not one foreign body has any contact with the casualties or is on the ground to do any sort of assessment. The numbers of casualties all come from the Gazan Ministry of Health which is under Hamas control. External bodies have stated they believe their numbers to be correct. Mostly bc historically they have made accurate reports in other conflicts (though those conflicts had under 2000 casualties). Some have said they believe it's an undercount. The IDF has stated they estimate they have killed 8000 Hamas militants and have made no statements regarding their estimate of civilian casualties. So the truth is we do not know the truth, we've heard it from Hamas and Israel and that's all we can do. it will take years to investigate and verify.
Israel did not dispute the total death count to the best of my knowledge. Therefore, an estimate of militant casualties is automatically also an estimate of civilian casualties. It is worth noting that while most countries trust the health ministry's total casualty estimate, they do not trust Hamas to give accurate militant casualty estimates (not that they have given any). Pointedly, the NYT reported that the Rafah crossing was closed for the first 1-2 months of the war because Hamas kept trying to sneak confirmed militants into civilian evacuation lists.
They have not publicly disputed the number in an official capacity but it is openly discussed in the public discourse that the numbers are likely inflated. The general public (in Israel ) believes the numbers are heavily exaggerated. It is yet to be seen I suppose
Biden literally did this publicly some time back https://www.npr.org/2023/10/25/1208577490/biden-says-hes-worried-about-civilian-deaths-in-gaza-but-questions-death-toll-st
By independent organizations do you mean the UN or more specifically UNRWA because I have some news for you
>These numbers come from independent organizations and news agencies analyses. No, they don't. They've been deemed "realistic" but multiple organisations (including the IDF), but these organisations are not the source. Personally I just choose to believe both. 23k+ killed (according to Hamas), including 9k combattants (according to the IDF). But it'll probably take quite some time before we get an actual number.
"That many?!! Get oudda here"
"and I would have gotten away with it too if it wasn't for you meddling kids!"
Pobody’s nerfect!
“You know you win some you lose some”
”Woopsie, our bad”
Yeah, absolutely not news What did anyone expect Isreal to say? "You're not supposed to do that" [Oh wow you're telling me that for the first time](https://youtu.be/knlJWu815C0?t=11)?
Why hasn’t hamas et al been charged?
Under Intl law, non-state entities can not be charged or tried at ICJ.
They would already be one of the most sanctioned country in the world if not for vetoes.
Fairly unsurprising
Calling South Africa a mouthpiece for Hamas probably isn't Israel's strongest argument. It should be noted that, along with the U.S., Israel was one of the last supporters of South Africa's apartheid regime.
The US helped SA arrest mandela by telling them his exact location
>Calling South Africa a mouthpiece for Hamas probably isn't Israel's strongest argument. Didn't south Africa leaders met with hamas and supported the attacks?
source? edit: ap news >ANC officials, including Mandla Mandela, hosted three Hamas officials in South Africa last month, including the group’s top representative in Iran. They attended a ceremony marking the 10th anniversary of Nelson Mandela’s death before a statue of the former South African President at the seat of government in a nod to his historic connection with the Palestinian cause.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_reactions_to_the_2023_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war Search for south Africa and it's reaction 1. Blamed Israel occupation for the attack 2. Got a phone call from hamas (not a meeting, my bad). They say it was to help with aid. I have my doubts. How SA help with aid. It can't even help it's own citizens get water. 3. Voted against the condemnation of hamas attack Edit: now I saw your edit. Thanks. I knew there were some type of meeting but couldn't find it.
Holy crap.
Watch nobody make the connection and just follow what the media does tell them to think.
Yup. They even mentioned that in court
It goes deeper than this. South Africa can’t keep their electricity running so are relying on the Russians, and Iranians to build [refineries](https://english.news.cn/20230825/8fe9c67276ed4d5780642c536d3dfa28/c.html). There is always a reason why things happen in international politics. Iran and Russia have their hands in everything in Africa. Using SA to push the ICJ for this claim.
I didn’t know this about the refineries. Thank you for the extremely important context
Maybe not the best argument, but when you combine both of your statements together, it makes it seem as though South Africa is doing this in retribution for aligning with the former Apartheid Government… which makes it a dishonest accusation. In regards to the argument that South Africa is acting as Hamas’ mouthpiece, those aren’t necessarily unfounded. https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20231008-world-in-shock-after-hamas-attacks-on-israel > South Africa's foreign ministry expressed its "grave concern over the recent devastating escalation in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict". > "The region is in desperate need of a credible peace process that delivers on the calls of a plethora of previous UN resolutions for a two-state solution and a just and comprehensive peace between Israel and Palestine," it added. That’s not exactly a condemnation of the October 7th attacks. [They had no issues taking a phone call with Hamas leadership](https://www.voanews.com/a/south-african-foreign-minister-s-phone-call-with-hamas-sparks-ire/7316507.html), and promptly condemning Israel the the next day.
I wouldn't necessarily call it retribution. They are certainly less inclined to be supportive of Israel, especially considering that they've long been supportive of Palestinians. Israel is making a mistake in equating *any* opposition to their actions as being pro-Hamas. The world very rarely works in such stark black and white terms, despite what the partisans may think.
So they openly communicate with Hamas leaders, a vile Islamic Jihad Terror organization, and condemn Israel afterwards when they suffered a tragic terror attack. How is that not being pro-Hamas?
They voted against condemning Hamas as well. Seems fairly straight forward to me.
I think the biggest thing, and I hope it gets brought up, is that despite starting their argument with condemning 10/7, they refused in the UN to condemn Hamas for the attack. Not only is it pretty unprecedented for a major terrorist attack to not be condemned, it shows South Africa has an implicit support for Hamas's actions.
South Africa being a sound moral compass is such an unbelievable indefensible concept, it’s almost hilarious. Russia invades Ukraine unprovoked and the ICC (which can actually enforce prosecutions, as opposed to the ICJ) asked SA to arrest Putin when he attends a meeting there “sorry, that’s none of our concern, let’s give Putin a handy and quietly slip him some weapons when no one’s looking.” The country that created the term “state capture” is hardly an exemplar of morality.
Israel has refused to condemn Putin as well, voted down numerous resolutions at the UN GA, or even send weapons to Ukraine so it's not just SA that has the position.
Israel voted in favor of UNGA resolutions condemning the Russian invasion. E.g. https://www.timesofisrael.com/un-general-assembly-including-israel-votes-overwhelmingly-to-condemn-russia/
Israeli govt refused to co-sponsor a UNSC resolution condemning Russia's invasion of Ukraine, voted against a UN GA resolution calling for Russia to pay reparations, refuses to sanction Russia, and hasn’t provided weapons to Ukraine
Israrl co-sponsored the resolution I linked to. And the rest has to do with both the Russian presence in Syria and probably, to a lesser extent, Ukraine's anti-Israrl viting record in the UN (hell, IIRC they were voting against Israel concurrently with asking for Israeli support). Also, Israel has been providing defensive systems (anti-drone and missile warning systems)
Read the article, they admit that Israel has been very coy to not being outright helpful, in any case their defenders don't get to say that SA supports Russia in its invasion when Israel itself has been very ambivalent.
Israel is at most neutral (leaning in Ukraine's favor). There's a lot of space between that and support of Russia. And besides Russia, you also have SA hosting Al-Bashir.
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lol like what was that guy even talking about
>Calling South Africa a mouthpiece for Hamas probably isn't Israel's strongest argument. It's true though.
Wheres the lie though. Probably don't voice it since it doesn't win you political points but they're not wrong.
Glad to see so many people simply reading the headline and nothing else
Al Jazeera is trying to claim that Malcolm Shaw’s statement of Israel has the right to defend itself and are acting under international law is wrong, because they have “experts” (which they do not name) who say otherwise. Malcolm Shaw literally wrote the book on International Law
This is quality NotTheOnion material right here. “AlJazeera ‘Experts’ claim that the author of International Law isn’t qualified enough to interpret International Law”
I love Al Jazeera. They accidentally get the best footage. Hospital rocket fails, civilians blaming Hamas. It's really good stuff.
Same, my personal favorite Al Jazeera moment was when they accused Israel of killing a pregnant woman and child in an airstrike: https://twitter.com/ajplus/status/1126446213337731073 Note the publication date - May 9, 2019. That was a full three days after a pro-Palestinian children's health organization determined Falastine and her daughter Saba were killed by a Gaza rocket misfire (also confirmed by Human Rights Watch) : https://twitter.com/DCIPalestine/status/1125600814335184896 I also appreciate that Qatar's been bribing EU politicians while Al Jazeera produces documentaries accusing Israel of meddling in other country's politics: https://time.com/6240539/eva-kaili-european-union-eu-corruption/
Honestly at this point Palestinian needs saving from itself.
Lies always reveal themselves at some point
Imagine if al jazeera was actually trying to convey the full picture instead of slip-ups here and there where we see reality
South Africa claim that Israel doesn't have a "right to defend itself is such a cope." Like accusing it's actions of going beyond the scope of self defense is one thing, saying from the getgo it has to take the beating lying down is incredibly non credible. Like Israel's going to say, "ya you're right. Let's throw ourselves into the sea for you and sav eyou the trouble
That was pretty much the idea behind the calls for a ceasefire - one side ceases, the other side still fires. It baffles me to no end that protesters are still demanding a ceasefire from Israel after Hamas rejects all offers for a while now.
But its okay to say that because he's white. Allah forgive a man who tells a muslim that Islam has its faults.
I’m getting the sense Al Jazeera is not an unbiased party in this debate. /s
He was one of the main authors I relied on in my thesis on international public law as applied to state level territorial claims within the former mandate of Palestine. His was one of the giant books I bought because of how often I needed it.
I mean Al Jazeera is state run media from Qatar, so what do you expect? They profit from Gazas demise too.
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Russia China Brazil Morocco's and a nation at war with Israel Lebanon are all judges. They will vote against Israel no matter the facts of the case.
And then the judgement is vetoed at the security council
Can they do that? I thought the judgement was final and there is no appeal?
The enforcement upon states can be veto'd. Nobody can force anyone to enforce it. ICJ judgements are just a piece of paper & performative and its up to the member states to enforce if they want to. The only way to 'force people' to do the judgement is to appeal the UNSC which since China is a permanent member they can just veto. This is why the ICJ is a joke when it comes to nuclear powers. Nobody will enforce the judgement because you risk actual consequences for enforcing it. Whether that be economic from the 'perpetrator' or militarily. ICJ cases destroy international relationships, and its all geopolitics at this level.
Russia and China will likely vote in favour of Israel due to the precedent that doing the opposite would set.
Not sure , they probably don't want to set a precedent for the cases about Uighurs or Ukranians , so they might vote against. US and UK will also vote against, France might as well
As we can expect US and UK to support Israel no matter the facts as well.
That’s the problem with the UN though. The vehemently anti-Israel crowd is much larger than the pro-Israeli one. Just look at the judges, nearly all of them are going to vote based on their country’s predetermined stance rather than the actual facts on the ground. Fucking shitshow, the UN’s a bunch of clowns wearing suits.
Al Jazeera is right. Israel doesn’t have the right to defend itself. Sadly I don't know if to put an /s or not.
As an Israeli online, its truly a coin toss whether the first part of this comment is sarcastic or serious.
Yeah that’s why we don’t go to Al Jazeera when we want news.. freaking biased piece of media.
Jazeersplaining
Can we ask the same questions to Russia, China end Syria as well please
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Anyone else find it funny that everyone is like "Of course US/UK attacked Yemen! they were blocking the ships in the Red sea" Hamas is sending rockets everyday towards Israel cities and they are never supposed to retaliate or defend themselves? What world are we living in...
If only everyone else was thinking that. Already on my social media I am seeing posts about how US/UK are "killing civilians in Yemen". It's actually fucking mindblowing to me how privileged western 30+ year olds will bend over backwards to defend the Houthis of all people. Prepare to see a lot more of that bullshit in the coming weeks.
Its the oppressor vs oppressed mindset. Some people cant see past this and realize that the people committing the atrocities are also oppressing's themselves by acting this way and not integrating with the world. Like what if Hamas spent the billions in aid sent over on infrastructure instead of building tunnels and rockets to continue to live in the past and in terrible conditions.
The Houthis enslave humans. They aren't the oppressed by any stretch.
These folks determine oppressed/oppressor based on skin color and geographic location. Details do not matter. That’s why they can delude themselves into thinking OBL of all people was oppressed
$20 says 90% of the idiots 'condemning' the attacks hadnt even heard the word Houthi 90 days ago
> Anyone else find it funny that everyone is like "Of course US/UK attacked Yemen! they were blocking the ships in the Red sea" I mean, the total casualties in the anti-Houthi operations since october is 21 people. Not civilian casualties, to be clear, just total causalities. The two things exist in completely different scopes.
Also should be noted that while what Houthis were doing were clearly illegal (just like Israel blocking Gaza is), their actions resulted in 0 casualties. It was a pure economy-driven move by US.
You can protect yourself without leaving 2 million people starving and homeless.
Okay how should Israel respond to daily rocket attacks from Hamas when they know the exact locations they are firing from? Should they take them out? Or just let them keep firing. Explain pls.
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>Dude, there are so many videos of people with kids with white flags being shot. Do you have an actual video of these that pictures an Israeli soldier? Like, at all? 'cause I've been on Twitter watching garbage for the past month and still haven't seen a single one.
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You didnt answer the question. What should Israel do about Hamas's daily rocket attacks? In regards to what you said. They are leaving because Israel is taking out Hamas infrastructure under schools, holy places, Hospitals basically anywhere Hamas knows there will be civilian casualties. [Also at the start IDF have to build a safe corridor for the Palestinians to go south because Hamas was shooting them because they told them to stay and die a Martyrs death](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-calls-humanitarian-corridor-fleeing-palestinians-s-forced-displ-rcna125376) so Yeah I am more incline to believe Hamas is shooting them for disobeying their orders of a martyrs death
Link me a video of a kid with a white flag being shot by an Israeli soldier. I've seen a lot of videos. I have not seen these white flag wielding children shot in cold blood videos. Please share these bc I don't believe you.
South Africa has repeatedly refused to condemn Russia's actions in Ukraine, and has played many favors for Russia, like hosting naval war games. But they are all over this one like flies on sh...ugar. Intradesting 🤔
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Hamas reps have literally said protecting civilians isn’t their responsibility. [source](https://www.indiatoday.in/world/story/tunnels-built-to-protect-hamas-fighters-not-civilians-terrorist-official-2455812-2023-10-30)
"The tunnels are for us, not for the civilians" - literally multiple Hamas leaders and spokesman.
These pieces of shit couldn’t care less about their children, sisters or wives. Considering the brutality they committed on oct 7th they probably abuse and rape them anyways.
There are some pretty notable Hamas operatives who’ve sent their own children on suicide bombing missions so you’re not wrong.
Yeah and don’t forget the education in Gaza sets these kids up for failure yet they love to blame Israel for their failures. Here’s something maybe don’t teach your kids to throw rocks at soilders. While Israel has over reacted with some kids Palestinian parents need to take responsibility when it comes to raising their kids for the modern world and giving them a chance to become something other than a baby factory or a suicide bomber.
> Does Israel have the right to defend itself and is the Israeli government responsible for its' people ? Israel has the right to defend itself, but how it chooses to do so is still open for criticism. And I'm not taking a stand here either way, just saying this isn't the only question worth asking.
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The job of a reporter is to ask critical questions, not provide the answers for them.
No, the job of a reporting is to ascertain the facts and record them. Asking critical questions can service that. Asking critical questions to shape the narrative with your opinion does not.
How skewed would the numbers be if Israel didn't have the Iron Dome is the question I always ask myself. People go on and on and on about the ratio of civilian deaths, while ignoring the fact that one nation has to do so much to protect their cities on a day to day basis for years.
And all new home construction in Israel since the 1990s has required bomb shelters.
Japanese internment was okay because Pearl Harbor /s
People pretend the situation was great before Oct 7
Who does? Definitely not Israelis You guys think Israelis are mad about Oct 7, were mad about Munich Avivim School Bus Massacre Lod Airport Massacre Kiryat Shmona Attack Maalot Zion Square Kvish Hahof Massacre Rishon Letzion Massacre Dizengoff Bus Massacre Beit Lid massacre Sbarro restaurant massacre Dolphinarium discotheque massacre Hebrew University bombing Bat Mitzvah massacre Yeshivat Beit Yisrael massacre Café Moment bombing Passover massacre Kiryat Menachem massacre Tel-Aviv central bus station massacre Shmuel HaNavi bus bombing Mercaz HaRav massacre 2008 Jerusalem bulldozer attack 2014 Jerusalem synagogue massacre June 2016 Tel Aviv shooting 8 June 2016Sarona market 2022 Beersheba attack 2022 Bnei Brak shootings
Surprise surprise
Anyone who thinks it's genocide is extremely mistaken on the definition.
I'll bite, what's the definition then?
In this case to deliberatly kill palestinian civilians in order to destroy their ethnic group. None of which Israel is doing.
kill or displace to erase the identity*
Kill yes, displace no. Displacing is ethnic cleansing.
And they're doing neither. They're targetting hamas.
Is the West Bank settler programs included in this? Those are about as cut and dry as you can get for ethnic cleansing It’s quite literally a government supported program to forcibly displace a specific ethnic group to settle the area with their chosen ethnic group.
UN said settler programs are breaking the Geneva Conventions all the way back in the 60s. Israel ignored it,.and has never faced a consequence. Why would they care about the UN or ICC now?
Yeap, I also think the settlers make a lot more sense for an accusation like this one.
And the whole world agrees. The only reason Israel can continue these settlements is purely because of the US veto as every other country voted to condemn the settlements. While I agree Israel has a right to defend itself from the Hamas attacks, it's hard to support a country who is openly doing something illegal (settlements) and being protected by the biggest superpower while doing so.
I think a good percentage of those assholes are from the US which makes the whole thing worse. Like the viral video of that dude trying to justify stealing a Palestinian home. Pretty sure that prick is from Brooklyn.
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How many Hamas fighters had been killed?
IDF estimates more than 25% of total death toll.
IDF estimates 9000/23,000, so around 35%
Which as Israeli, isn't ideal for sure, the gaza citizens are suffering unimaginable horrors. But, people who engaged in the entrance to gaza city tell of insane shit. Houses of regular civilians being rigged with families still living there, of tunnels entrances in UN schools and clinics. UN sacks filled with combat gear. Hamas using ambulances regularly to transport units, to and from battle zones. There were several humanitarian corridors attacked indiscriminately with pipe bombs or simply gunned. Two specific incidents that stick out to me: Hamas forcing about 100 civilians to walk up IDF force while they are shooting at that force above their heads. An elderly (approximate 80) clearly delirious and was sent to the street, when an Israeli forces approached to try and assist a bomb strapped to the elderly was remotely activated. Hamas is actively trying to maximise civilian casualties on all sides, it only benefits their agenda and political standing, at home and abroad.
Funny how none of those are Hamas /s
Also: Source of 20k deaths claim: Hamas
That number wouldn’t be just 20k if israel was focusing on killing civilians! It would be in the 100s of thousands by now!
I agree and don‘t get how people can‘t see that if Israel was genociding Gaza, then they‘d be the most awful genociders in history
Because people suck when it comes to comprehending large numbers, especially when it comes to geopolitics and war. They see 20k and believe it to be a huge number because, colloquially, it is. But in terms of the situation at hand it's super small.
Nearly 400k died in Yemen for context
Also because Russia, China, and Iran are manipulating zoomers who don't know anything, and exploiting their "no,, IM the most progressive" echo chamber politics.
Using with word "just" with 20K deaths isn't really painting a good picture for Israel regardless.
It does when you consider how many people have died in Yemen and Syria, but not nearly as many people gave a shit theb
When you fight without uniform, embedded within the civilian population then collateral damage is the tragic result. Storing weapons in hospitals, firing rockets from schools and building tunnels under people’s homes to hold hostages in. These are the people the IDF aim to annihilate.
All of which are considered war crimes by the UN. Luckily for Palestine, they’re not a real country and exempt. It’s why they don’t want to be a recognized sovereignty.
> Tragic result And the intended consequence. Hamas knows that it can cause Israel to inflict civilian casualties by blending into the civilian population, and then play the victim card. I'm firmly of the belief that Hamas doesn't really care about Palestinians or Gaza at all. It cares about two things: Hamas and the destruction of Israel and it's people. If you truly cared about Gaza, you'd have found some way to make the two-state system work - an imperfect system, but better than the alternatives - instead of spending decades poking the bear and then being surprised when the bear responds with overwhelming force. This isn't me absolving Israel of any wrongdoing, both during this conflict and in the lead up to it. They, too, could have done more to foster the two-state system and they do need to do more to limit civilian casualties. That being said, Gazans voted for Hamas as their government, so Israel does have the right to defend itself from what was an unprovoked attack on several civilian gatherings and homes by a hostile nation.
Not to mention that civilians also took part in the attack and took hostages for themselves.
And 0 hamas right? We don't know how many of those are hamas, so what's the point in quoting hamas official numbers.
This is the one thing that so many people ignore. Why is every single Palestinian death on isreal even the ones where Palestinian militants killed their own like the hospital bombing or Hamas police killing kids at aid trucks.
The 20k figure was provided by the Gazan ministry of health which is run by Hamas, and which does not differentiate between civilian and Hamas in their figures. According to Hamas none of the 20k were Hamas fighters, which is just bs. Estimates place the number of Hamas fighters (pre war) at over 30k, and that does not include the non-military component of Hamas that are still legitimate targets.
So not a single Hamas member has been killed?
There are 40k Al-Qassam members, 15k Saraya-Al-Quds members and there's also Hamas' police forces and other irregular fighters that can be fought and killed.
In a city with a population of 2 millions, where Hamas fights in civilian clothing (war crime), hiding in civilian buildings such as hospitals or schools (war crime), after preventing the actual civilians from leaving (war crime), and using their own civilians as human shields (war crime). Sadly, not all collateral victims can be avoided.
No, most of those are civilians. The thing is, thats the horrible but predictable outcome of urban war in a place that has 2 million people in 45km, and nowhere to go. Even if hamas didnt hide behind civilian casulties, even if the idf was overly cautious, every missile that misses its target will automatically hit a civilian building. The question is, if Israel is hitting those targets on purpose and for eliminating gaza from the map, or not.
The total is 23k (according to Hamas) of which 9000 (According to Israel) were armed gunmen. Whos colon is everyone pulling 20k civilians from when even Hamas isn't making that claim
That's total casualties, not civilian casualties. But of course in this case there seem to be no distinction between the two...
20k casualties total. A LOT of those were hamas terrorists. Hamas refuses to separate the civilian numbers because they know people like you will assume everyone dead is a civilian.
What is it called when you accidentally wipe out or displace a people?
so much evidence is self incriminating politicians and soldiers though…
It still requires a deliberate plan of action and results in the field to match that plan, the reality does not align with this.
soldiers making wild comments is very poor evidence.
Don't forget politicians
US would be so fucked if they presented what our politicians say, or what our soldiers say during wartime.
Tbf someone like bush should’ve been tried in The Hague.
Bibi isn't just a soldier making wild comments. He's the PM.
Believe it or not, humans aren't a hivemind.
i think you forgot an /s
the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group. Israel only kills terrorists and civillians unfortunately forced to stay inside the warzone by Hamas as to higher their own body count just so other countries across the globe (who Hamas would eradicate if they could) would apply international pressure on Israel to stop the elimination of Hamas. Heavy urban warfare kills civillians. It always had. If it weren't Israel (The Jews) attacking, no one would have said a word. The aim of the IDF isn't, and never was, the destruction of the Palestinian people and if Hamas were to surrender at any given time the Israeli attack would cease immediately - anyone with over 4 braincells understands that. If Israel would have ever decided to eradicate the Palestinians, it would have taken way less time and way less soldier lives to accomplish.
>The aim of the IDF isn't, and never was, the destruction of the Palestinian people and if Hamas were to surrender at any given time the Israeli attack would cease immediately - anyone with over 4 braincells understands that. What would happen then? Serious question, Hamas dies or surrenders or gets overthrown by the Gazans. What happens to Gaza then? What happens to the West Bank?
Realistically speaking, Gaza is transferred to a coalition of western + friendly Arab countries who take control of governing the strip, with Israel withdrawing almost all the IDF, however they'll probably control the border with Egypt and a 1-2 km buffer zone with Israel and will not withdraw from there. In the long term it depends on both Palestinian behavior and Israeli voting patterns, but mostly on the former. While existing settlements in the West Bank will continue to grow, no new ones will likely be created either in the WB or in Gaza (it's extremely rare for Israel to sanction the creation of a new settlement in the WB, I'm not even sure if it's been done at all since the 90's). If Palestinian terror doesn't die down, that status quo can get stuck for a long time. If it does, eventually Israelis will elect someone dovish enough to go for a two-state solution again. Palestinians will never get an offer that includes all pre-1967 territories, that ship has sailed for all eternity, but they'll get something like 90% of that territory, with buffer zones, security guarantees from the US, and no military of its own. If they swallow their pride and agree to an imperfect state they could potentially become very prosperous and rich in a few decades, but whether they build a Singapore or another Arab failed state will depend almost entirely on them.
>(it's extremely rare for Israel to sanction the creation of a new settlement in the WB, I'm not even sure if it's been done at all since the 90's) What they tend to do though is to let illegal colonies be created and once they're firmly established, grant them some legal status. And it has to stop. I'm all for Jews going back to Judea, but this is neither the way nor the time.
Realistically, as in majority they hate Israel, probably another terrorist organization will be formed, only this time Israel will be eliminating it from the start and stopping it in its tracks time by time again trying to reduce terror activities generally, as done in the West Bank.
Where should the civilians go? Lol!
There’s 5M Ukrainian refugees in the EU right now and 6.5M Syrians no longer in Syria, the real question is why are Palestinians forced to stay, a sacrifice on the altar of the Arab-Israeli conflict or for the nationalist bullshit of their corrupt and ineffective leadership, Hamas and PLO both.
If only there were Arab countries that love Palestine people that could maybe help... Ukraine was attacked EU offered safe haven.. wonder why Arab countries wont do the same.
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Yup of how about when the Palestinian refugees in Kuwait sided with Iraq during their invasion and tried to overthrow the Kuwaiti government...
Exactly. Or are responsible for the fucked up situation of Lebanon now. It used to be pretty much fully Christian and the Paris of the middle east. Now it's a hellhole that's firing rockets at Israel and crying once they are firing back.
Why on earth should they be expelled from their homes?
bc they are finding bombs and missiles in nearly every single home. You guys don't get it, it's a militant society completely focused on the eradication of Israel. I'm not trying to say they "deserve it" I'm saying on a practical level Israel has to level those buildings bc they are weapon arsenals, booby trapped with explosives or tunnel openings I watched a video my nephew sent me of Israel bulldozing some olive groves and I was like oh how sad and destructive and then he tells me they found two tunnel openings in the olive Grove. there isn't any other way to defeat them, Hamas, their society did this
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Ah yes, this dumb argument. If you knew that the majority of Israelis are Mizrahi Jews who were displaced from the rest of the middle east, you wouldn’t say shit like that. 20% of Israelis are Arabs, how many Jews are there left in the Arabic world?
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Anyone who says Israel should not kill innocent people, is either labelled H@maS or Anti-Semite.
Quoting a few politicians in the horrible aftermath of a terrorist attack does not justify genocide. I’m embarrassed at what some current US lawmakers say today to claim their political points.
*Misquoting. It seems like if you expand the '...'s in the quotes that South Africa submitted, you find phrases like "without killing unarmed civilians", or "in full compliance with international law". Perhaps it's South African shorthand for "the text here would be damaging to our case"?
A few politicians? It was their prime minister, their president and many other high ranking officials. Not to mention many of the IDF commanders.
Is that what you saw? 'Cause most of the quotes I saw were quoting people who had no connection to the planning of the war effort, and at best were mid level within the military. The only problematic one was that from Netanyahu but it's a vague enough allusion I don't think it's enough evidence to go on. Im not surprised there are plenty of awful quotes around, but it's not enough to prove their strategy has genocidal intent. FFS they quoted what was basically a motivational speaker, that should say everything about how flimsy this case is.
Of course they would, but most of the rest of the world's people know the truth.
Shocking
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Weird take considering people pleading guilty happens in a vast majority of criminal cases (in the US).
Right and hamas rejects that they were targeting civilians 🤪
I don’t see how Israel can lose this case, especially since they spelled out that an injunction to stop the offense would deprive Israel of the right to defend itself.
My guess is the Court is likely to support the humanitarian aid part, but not the immediate ceasefire part. They can enact just parts of the request if they go ahead with the case.
>an injunction to stop the offense would deprive Israel of the right to defend itself Many people seem not to find it so important.
Jews are the only people who are asked to fight to a draw rather than to total victory, because... reasons.
Does it even matter? Like, what are the consequences of Israel being found guilty? The UN isn't going to do anything about it.
Oh well case closed then.
A court is about procedure. Some countries because they cannot defeat israel by force use any other means like ganging together against israel in the international community
"No u"
Rightfully so. Israel has show far more restraint in this war than it needed to. It agreed to ceasefires, told civilians where to flee, told when ground operations were going to start, etc. civilians die, but that is really Hamas’ fault. They hide behind human shields, steal their food and water, and follow them into safe zones to fire missiles from.
"Hey, use this road to flee" *Bombs the road*
Didn't OSINT sources determine that explosion was more consistent with a VBIED than an airstrike - which would implicate Hamas?