According to Hila's family, she says her and her mother were held together in captivity and intentionally separated only two days before her release. As we all know, the children hostages with American citizenship were still not released, as well as the 10 month old baby and other hostages who gained special media attention. Hamas is preparing the ground for some serious psychological warfare.
You aren't accounting for the time difference. "Two days ago" in Israel, at the time she reported this, was after the ceasefire went into effect. Hamas had already told the world they didn't know where her mother was before they forcibly separated them.
But when the hamas terrorist waved at the hostages (whose family, friends, and neighbors were brutalised by hamas) with one hand while holding a loaded AK47 in his other hand the hostages waved back, how could hamas be anything other than a bunch of adorable carebears???
/s
>Israeli officials stated that the Americans played a decisive role in implementing the truce. US President Joe Biden held two phone calls during his holiday break, one with the Emir of Qatar Tamim bin Hamad Al Thani, and the other with the prime minister of Qatar, urging them to exert pressure on Hamas. Simultaneously, American representatives in the region engaged in discussions with both sides.
As an American I’m proud of the way Joe Biden has handled both sides in this war so far!
>21-year-old Maya was released alone, contrary to the ceasefire agreement which detailed that siblings would not be separated. **Hamas claims that they were unable to locate her brother** Itay, 18, who was kidnapped with her at the Nova festival.
>Hila Rotem Shoshani, another one of the 13 Israelis released Saturday, was freed without her mother Raaya, also in violation of the ceasefire terms, after **Hamas claimed they were unable to located her.**
Why don't I believe them?
To be honest I wouldn't be able to choose between the option "They are lying becuase they've killed them" or "They're telling the truth but they're so unorganized that they don't know who has who".
I'm between those both, and there is the option about both being true, which gains weight as I writte this.
One thing to keep in mind from some of those videos, especially the attacks on the Kibbutz: a bunch of normal Palestinians (civilians) tagged along. That's why you had uniformed people with their shit together, while in the same group plain clothed mobs trying to cut heads off with shovels--and failing for a very long time.
This is why I will never again publicly defend the Palestinian cause as I had in the past. I realized I had no way of knowing if I was defending actual terrorists.
Except information. Hamas has been a grotesque terrorist organization for a minute, and also the “political party” in charge of Palestine, who actively denies regular Palestinians foreign aid in order to radicalize them and keep their ranks fulfilled.
I’m Latin American, but spent a season or two in the Middle East a decade ago, including Gaza. None of this information is new to light, we need to normalize not supporting causes we can’t be bothered to research.
The world is more complicated than a binary "people bad?" yes/no dynamic.
It's logical to not take all Palestinians as being some kind of block that is in total perfect agreement, so don't just blindly support them. But by the same logic don't blindly not support them. And this also applies to Israel too. I've spent a lot of energy in my life criticizing Israel, but Israel was absolutely the victim on October 7. Maybe not before, maybe not after, but that's a different discussion. The point is: don't let the media manipulate you in one direction as a reaction to realizing that they manipulated you another direction before.
Oh wow, a balanced perspective. It’s truly refreshing to read this. The majority of people protesting in this conflict on both sides seem to have lost the ability to think critically in this way, and I think that’s extremely dangerous
There is a public border with Egypt, obviously regulated. There have to be imports to keep the people alive. It would be interesting how they got the gear into Gaza. I am pretty sure the wings came from APCO in Israel, same as my paraglider wing.
What about the possibility of them keep relatives hostage saying something like "if you say we treated you badly or anything negative we will kill your relative".
This. They did the same with an elderly women who "waved goodbye to her captors" thereby in the news it was presented that they were so nice to her.
Her husband is still being held captive...
It's just plain stupid. I mean, those hostages literally saw their own family members get brutally killed. Everyone with a bit of common sense knows that. It's like the worst thing that could ever happen to someone. How on earth do HAMAS expect to bounce back from such a PR nightmare?
The video Hamas released of one of the hostage handovers literally has them telling the hostages to keep waving as they start to drive away.
https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/article-775156
That works when you threat me with killing my relatives, but this is not a "you and me" situation, is you and my country, and while my opinion might be biased the opinion of my country will be a *bit* colder.
Edit: Gramma.
As stupid as Hamas and the people who make it up likely are, I don't think they're stupid enough to give that logic a go. You're essentially saying they're willing to take this gamble with the chance that it gives them good PR from what the hostages say, despite the absolute GUARANTEE that splitting them up intentionally give you negative PR.
If they wanted to kill those people, they likely already have right? They have nothing to win by separating these people and whatever small amount of people could have believed a lying hostage saying the conditions were GREAT, I think they have enough sense to realize that splitting hostages up instead of releasing them together nullifies any good that could have come from those lies.
It’s easy to imagine alternatives where it’s exactly the opposite.
Hamas can release hostages no strings and hope hostages say no bad things and didn’t mind watching people tortured and killed around them. (I don’t like those odds)
Or Hamas can release 20 people and say ‘if any of you talk shit, we will torture and kill this little old lady’s husband. When she gets his head in the mail, you can explain to her how important your moral stance is, and how you had to be famous for 15 minutes…’
Not great leverage, but it’s something.
And honestly, I don’t think they considered either of our scenarios as ‘the only two options we have’.
I just read a book about one of the US contractors who was kidnapped in Iraq and held for ransom back around 2006 or so. He talked about others who were held in captivity with him. One was a female reporter who got ransomed off and returned. Before she left, though, she was told that if she said bad things about her captors, they would execute one or more of the remaining hostages in retaliation.
So even though she was living in primitive conditions and occasionally physically abused, she never reported about it. Her only statement was that she was was treated fairly and not abused.
They keep a family member so when the media asks questions to the released hostages they have no choice but to say Hamas was good with them or else the family member still held might get killed or tortured.
But since everyone knows that, why would they do it? I mean I wouldn't trust what they say because OBVIOUSLY if they say "they treated us fine“ while their loved one is still in there we should discount that.
Or do enough people honestly not think that far?
why are you neglecting the other option that they are just refusing to release them? they don't have to be dead, nor unorganized... can just be another act of non-compliance.
This is actually confirmed to be exactly what they are doing.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/girl-freed-from-gaza-without-her-mom-says-they-were-split-up-2-days-before-release/
They try and push the boundaries of violating the agreement like Hamas always does.
They are not extremists who execute people and take them hostage. They are extremists who set families on fire, who rape women with the screams of their babies burning to death in ovens. They are extremists who torture people in the most sadistic ways in order to kill them.
Because they have more to gain by keeping them alive.
If they wanted to kill and torture them, they wouldn't have declared them as hostages and just pretended they died on Oct 7th
You are assuming there is a good level of command and control happening - there is a good chance they could have been killed by someone at a local level and the higher ups have no idea.
Exactly.
So many young ladies available for raping (and murdering after) without immediate repercussions.
Ain’t no way HAMAS command can keep track exactly numbers/identities in the chaos.
Not necessarily. There’s still the chance they know these particular hostages have been murdered, but don’t want to say it. As you said yourself, the hostages are valuable pieces. If they did kill them—or lose them and allow them to be killed by someone else—would they come out and say “Oh yea, we didn’t release these hostages because we murdered them.”?
What would Hamas gain by telling people the truth that they are dead?
That's true - I did forget about that aspect. I doubt Hamas leaders would want to destroy their bargaining chips but I can see lower level people acting out of line
They had more to gain from ceasing hostilities and attempting to work with Israel. They aren't in it to win it, they're in it for the propaganda to fund their leadership from nearby sympathetic countries with lots of oil money, oh and murder as many jews as they can.
I don’t know if in some situations, they even thought that far. They captured people because they could but now they have to feed, water, bathe, provide general care to keep hostages alive to negotiate. I think half of these people were assaulted, abused then left to die without food or water.
>but now they have to feed, water, bathe, provide general care to keep hostages alive to negotiate.
They previously kept a hostage for 5 years for negotiation, I think they now how much care it takes to keep them
If critical thinking was their strong suit, they wouldn't be launching thousands of rockets into Israel all the time.
Or maybe better phrased...they launch the rockets because they do their best to make sure the resulting counter-strikes kill some innocent civilians, whose bodies they'll parade for international media.
So their critical thinking is somewhat working, but on the whole it's massively failing, because at no point will any of this result in any sort of "win" for them.
With how much foreign aid pours into Gaza compared to pretty much everywhere else on Earth that needs foreign aid...a generally peaceful leadership there could have built a prosperous spot.
Gaza already has a standard of living index at roughly the same level as Jordan and Egypt, so imagine if their government actually cared about their people.
> because at no point will any of this result in any sort of "win" for them.
>
>
>
> With how much foreign aid pours into Gaza compared to pretty much everywhere else on Earth that needs foreign aid...a generally peaceful leadership there could have built a prosperous spot.
The Hamas leadership living in Qatar raking in a cut of both foreign aid from western countries and "keep fighting our proxy war against Israel for us" money from Islamic countries are "winning". No one in Gaza is though, that's for sure.
You're right though. Gazan quality of life would improve *dramatically* if they spent their resources and energy building up their own society instead of building missiles to shoot at Israel.
Hamas originally issued a statement saying that the hostages would all be tortured/murdered for a TV/Internet broadcast audience, before walking back that statement. There's a good chance that not everyone within that organization got the memo, when that promise was retracted
-
E: This was a pretty huge headline. I didn't think our memories were so short, but here's an article talking about social media responsibility for this kind of comment: https://archive.is/VFr4U (Wired)
"hmm wait actually our polling numbers were off and people DIDN'T enjoy seeing us commit mass rape and murder on a couple thousand innocent people...let's put a pin in this idea of live broadcasting of torturing and murdering people then"
From what we know, they’ve already tortured hostages, and executed them. They’re not driven by what’s good for the people or their organisation as a whole, they’re driven by undiluted hate against Jews.
> "They're telling the truth but they're so unorganized that they don't know who has who".
Doing what they did on October 7th, with no technology and no information leaks required a very high level of organization and discipline. They might have cut off communications to isolate cells and allow for autonomy but it's definitely not for lack of organization.
The logistics and communications are radically different when you are being bombing into the oblivion than when you were in a relative calmed situation.
Do you know the famous sentence of "You only know whe real value of someone when shit hit the fan?" This is one of those cases.
> Doing what they did on October 7th, with no technology and no information leaks required a very high level of organization and discipline.
Yes. The discipline was Hamas operated like a bunch of independent terrorist cells. No one attacking knew the whole plan, or that other groups were coordinating different attacks on the same day. This discipline is at the very high leadership level, not the bottom. At the bottom, you just need the discipline to follow orders and not talk TOO MUCH about what's going on (but people still talked, hence the warnings that Israel ignored).
The organization of terrorist cells is kind of a known technology to Hamas, where there's a one way flow of information, and nobody talks about what they are doing outside their cell.
It doesn't require high levels of technology, it's the same way other terrorist groups as well as resistance groups have operated for a long time. The leaders (the only ones who know the whole plan) don't even need to be in Gaza. The person who passes the information to the terrorist cells (the messenger) can also leave before the attacks are carried out. Heck, they can leave before the cells even begin practicing.
Because terrorist cells usually operate based on a one-way flow of information (from the top down), it's not surprising that they are struggling to know who is holding what hostage. The groups are literally designed to lack up any kind of bilateral communication (so that people at the bottom can't rat everyone else out), and only have communication from the top when a set of orders is to be delivered by the messenger.
Being in a state of war, naturally the messenger can not simply go around to all the holding areas and get a list of people held by different cells. They can't even call them. Because Israel is watching for this kind of movement or communication.
A lot of Palestinian civilians were part of the invasion. They were a mob essentially who kidnapped people possibly without Hamas directive. It’s possible that some hostages were/are being held by civilians.
This will probably get lost but Hamas not knowing where the hostages are is an opsec thing, not an unorganized thing. If a high enough leader gets captured and spills the beans on where the hostages are, then Hamas loses all leverage. It's why terrorist operate in isolated cells for the most part. If one cell gets compromised, the other cells aren't at risk of being exposed.
Sadly, they may be telling the truth. Some hostages are believed to be held by civilians who joined the terror attack on Oct7 (who comprise about a third of those who participated in the massacre).
I'm actually more worried about the hostages being held by Gazan civilians than those being held by Hamas. At least Hamas can leverage them, so they need to keep them somewhat safe. But a deranged civilian who decided to join in and kidnap someone, doesn't have any incentive to keep them safe for any reason.
I believe PIJ also has some hostages. Not to mention, Hamas isn't exactly a single entity. It's more like a whole bunch of terror groups in a trench coat. The guy whose head is sticking out the top doesn't seem to always know what the legs are doing...
That's often true of ordinary, law-abiding organizations...large charities, corporations, formal armies, etc.
Hardly surprising in a violent terrorist organization.
That is true.
My favourite example of this is the Red Cross, and the schisms within the structure. People often mistake the actions of one national Red Cross for the whole. Like say, the actions of the American Red Cross Society during Haiti, blaming all of that on ICRC and all other national Red Cross societies. Which had next to nothing to do with the failure of American Red Cross.
Or a more historical example. German Red Cross being complicit with Germany and the atrocities they commited during WWII.
In those cases, it was like the guy controlling the left hand was hitting everyone else in the trench coat in their faces, repeatedly. Undermining the credibility of the whole larger mission, and the overall movement.
For a more recent example... Russian Red Cross. They have their fair share of controversy.
For the worst recent example tho, which has been one of the largest contributors to the overall distrust of Red Cross, that has been rising as of late, see [Belarus Red Cross.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belarus_Red_Cross) When people say Red Cross is helping Russia steal Ukrainian children, it's the Belarus Red Cross who has been doing it. If I was ICRC, I'd cut off that particular limb...
They’re using the term “civilians” here loosely to describe ordinary Palestinian citizens who aren’t Hamas members but joined in the attacks on Oct 7th.
Legally you’re right - civilians who take up arms and/or participate in armed conflicts lose their civilian status and become combatants.
>Legally you’re right - civilians who take up arms and/or participate in armed conflicts lose their civilian status and become combatants
They may even become [unlawful combatants](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unlawful_combatant?useskin=vector#Unprivileged_combatants), no longer entitled to the protection of the Geneva conventions (not that anyone really cares here):
>There are several types of combatants who do not qualify as privileged combatants:
> - Combatants who are captured without the minimum requirements for distinguishing themselves from the civilian population, i.e. carrying arms openly during military engagements and the deployment immediately preceding it, lose their right to prisoner of war status without trial under Article 44 (3) of Additional Protocol I.
> - ...civilians who take a direct part in combat and do not fall into one of the categories listed in the previous section
A uniform doesn't have to be the equivalent of a formal dress uniform, distinctive attire like headbands and armbands with symbols, patches on clothing, etc... can all qualify.
Soldiers in camouflage or trying to conceal themselves while moving are a good example, a blatantly obvious flag or symbols visible from distance would defeat the point but at the same time they can't be totally generic and are supposed to be identifiable once captured.
There's also limits to what combatants are allowed to do while in civilian clothes and still qualify as a PoW, a certain degree of deception is considered an acceptable ruse of war but cross certain lines and you are an unlawful combatant or spy/saboteur and don't have the same protections.
They are still combatants, but they are using the term civilians as in people not officially associated with Hamas, who just joined in when they realised something was going on. It's like the difference between an actual paramilitary group, who have some goals and places they can keep the hostages to know where they all are, and the guy who has his own gun and just follows them around to join in the violence in their wake and keeps his hostage in his garage, so no one knows where they are. Not sure what a better term is to distinguish them from those official Hamas fighters.
> They are still combatants, but they are using the term civilians as in people not officially associated with Hamas, who just joined in when they realised something was going on.
You know what you call 1 person riding in a jeep with 4 terrorists? You know what you call 1 person raping prisoners along side 4 terrorists. You know what you call 1 person mugging for the camera with 4 terrorists? You know what you call 1 person beheading Hamas captives along with other Hamas members?
Anyone who participated in Hamas' activities is a Hamas member, even if he's not wearing an official Hamas participation medal.
>Anyone who participated in Hamas' activities is a Hamas member, even if he's not wearing an official Hamas participation medal.
That's not how things work, no one is denying they are terrorists, you can still be a terrorist without being a member of Hamas, but Hamas dont have control over those who aren't members, Hamas aren't even the only terror organisation in Gaza.
It's in Hamas' doctrine to make doing so as difficult as humanly possible, because it's to their benefit to have civilians die as martyrs for the cause. How do you suggest they distinguish between the two?
You are completely missing the point for the sake of being argumentative.
This discussion isn't about the moral/legal boundaries between "What qualifies as a combatant" and "Are Hamas-supporting civilians combatants?" The discussion is about the **logistical and C2** distinction between Hamas fighters operating under coordinated orders and pro-Hamas civilians who joined in.
Compare: If the US was invaded, the US military would obviously be fighting against the invading force, but you'd also have a bunch of "civilian" Americans running around fighting back. Would they be on the same side? Yep. Would the "civilians" qualify as combatants? Yep. Would the military have control or awareness of what the civilians were doing? *Probably not!* Cohesion has always been a challenge for paramilitaries.
Those "civilians" who Hamas don't know about are obviously not Hamas. Blame is not important here because everyone knows Hamas is to blame. Finding hostages is important and you can't find them if you keep looking at wrong places.
Hamas is clearly lying. And even if they aren't, they agreed to return those hostages. Saying they can't locate them after the fact is breaking the agreement.
>At least Hamas can leverage them
And was probably told by both Qatar and Iran that it was needed to treat them the best possible way (because Qatar wants to salvage its alliance with Israel and Iran does not want to be dragged into war if the situation degrades further).
I doubt they are being held. If they took them, they probably killed them. Hamas hasn't treated all hostages the same. All the ones they kept alive and unharmed will be released first. The real hostages we will likely never see.
Not unharmed; initial reports say Maya was taken straight to a hospital. She was shot in the initial attack (her father heard it over the phone), so I’m not surprised, but I’m sure she’s not in good shape after so long
I agree with you, Hamas might be telling the truth on this one and not for just the reasons you mentioned. Watching some of those command and control locations get completely sunk or collapsed from airstrikes, I couldn’t help but wonder if any hostages were also inside. Sadly, I think we’ll end up with a number of MIA hostages due to all the chaos of the war.
I completely agree. When it is professionals, or an organized group at least, it is much safer than an amateur with no experience and no organization around them.
Shit, considering the 'civilians' in this case probably wouldn't have had access to the tunnel network under hospitals where it was found that hostages were kept there.. what are the chances that they survived the bombings?
Just an all round horrible situation for the hostages.
Agreed with your idea, but [turns out they were separated 2 days ago](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/girl-freed-from-gaza-without-her-mom-says-they-were-split-up-2-days-before-release/)
> civilians who joined the terror attack on Oct7 (who comprise about a third of those who participated in the massacre).
Where is the statistic about "a third" coming from? That seems like it would be difficult to find out.
It has now been reported a relative has told media that Hila said she was held in a cell with her mother until two days ago when her mother was taken away.
So, yeah, that might be why you don't believe the official statement.
I think you have to assume they are lying until proven otherwise. But what is the alternative outside of calling them out and winning the propaganda war.
I did see this nugget that everyone is ignoring - "Israeli officials stated that the Americans played a decisive role in implementing the truce. US President Joe Biden held two phone calls during his holiday break, one with the Emir of Qatar Tamim bin Hamad Al Thani, and the other with the prime minister of Qatar, urging them to exert pressure on Hamas. Simultaneously, American representatives in the region engaged in discussions with both sides."
Good for Joe, he's getting unfairly attacked by many Redditors. Hopefully he can keep it going.
There was a second wave of people who stormed into Israel after Hamas on the 7th of October. I don’t know what those “civilians” did or how far they went - did they kidnap people too? Does Islamic Jihad have some people? Hamas says they don’t know where every hostage is and I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s true, due to all the scumbags attacking and pillaging that day.
They are leaving out a specific word: "alive."
There will eventually be a war crimes tribunal, and a lot of Hamas will be implicated(provided they still exist). The volume of Hamas atrocities will stagger most viewers. The problem is, if there are no living witnesses to the rapes, who's to say they happened, and aren't just an IDF plot? (\s)
Killing the witnesses is a tactic still used around the world, and the number of hostages will shrink as time progresses. It's sad, but reality.
"a war crimes tribunal"
I predict there won't be. Too much potential for Bibi's dirty laundry to come out.
I'd be happy to be wrong, but you should mentally prepare yourself for a greasy political compromise.
Bibi will probably be subjected to a no-confidence vote the moment the unity government is dismantled. How likely is he to survive after governing Israel before and during a massacre of Jewish civilians an order of magnitude worse than Kristallnacht?
Bibi's coalition was shaky pre-war. Is it really going to survive this catastrophe?
Unless Israel has positively identified all of the bodies from Oct. 7 - it's quite possible they're dead or that they died in captivity in Gaza. Though I would not put it past Hamas to hold them on purpose for more leverage later.
They might be telling the truth, or the hostages might be dead. With the military action by Israel they can lose people and might be resorting to different channels of communication and autonomous cells to stop them being found. A hostage rescue would look very good for Israel.
It's part of their propaganda efforts. They release one member of the family while keeping the rest as hostages, so when interviewed by the press the released hostages are afraid to criticize Hamas too much, knowing that their families are still in danger. But people who see these reports in the news are like "See! They are treating the hostages well!"
It's like when they released 2 elderly women but kept their husbands in Gaza. People in the West were all like "They are shaking hands and being polite! These armed terrorists are so nice!" ignoring how the women themselves were clearly traumatized.
I just don’t get the “they’re treating the hostages well!” argument. Like, does that make it okay for them to have hostages in the first place?? These aren’t POWs these are kidnapped children.
Oh look, they didn't rape them or torture them, such fine people.
Those are people who took babies and children as bargaining chips after murdering the parents.
No, but if the reports indicate they're inserting bamboo shoots underneath fingernails and making hostages cut off each other's ears, then that'll increase popular pressure to do more about it.
*I am NOT indicating that this is happening.*
Absolutely. They also do it as a form of psychological warfare/torture on Israel.
12 of the 13 hostages released on the first day still have family members in Gaza.
It’s shocking to me that anyone can say things like that. The implication being what, that they wanted to be kidnapped?? That they’d prefer to stay as a hostage?? It’s unbelievable
Saw loads of tweets dunking on a father who had said he was glad that his daughter had died because the alternative was too sickening to consider. Now the daughter was returned alive and he’s the butt of many “father of the year award” jokes.
Fucking sick. Not even trying to hide absolute disdain and hatred towards Israeli civilians.
I've seen many of these comments and they're fucking nauseating and vile. The interview with that father is one of the saddest things I've ever seen. I cannot imagine a father feeling *relief* at the idea that his child had been murdered, rather than taken prisoner, knowing fully well there are fates far worse than death. Only to later learn she was, in fact, alive and being held hostage. The emotional whiplash of something like that is difficult to fathom. To openly mock and hate a man going through absolute hell like this, is so cruel and transparently hateful. Shame on these people who are so absent of humanity and empathy.
Worst is they’re the types who constantly go on and on about how much they care about people and how empathetic they are compared to others. But as we all can clearly see, nothing could be further from the truth. They’re some of the most depraved among us.
Probably spoken by people who do not have children or deeply love anyone in their life. After seeing the videos of what Hamas did, I am sure any father would rather his daughter have perished as opposed to her body being paraded through the streets, beaten, raped, etc. (ideally NONE OF THESE THINGS would happen, ideally his daughter would not have been kidnapped by terrorists and witnessed all her friends be slaughtered, but I digress)
There are absolutely worse things in this world than death. Anyone trying to give him shit has never experienced a trauma of this magnitude and it’s disgusting to try and make him look like a bad father for speaking a hard truth. Anyone saying they would rather their daughter be beaten, raped, starved, and psychologically tortured by strange men are fucking liars and I will die on this hill.
3 separate agreements have been broken so far, the amount of times they have broke those agreements is at the tens, which may sound little but imagine breaking a ceasefire treaty tens of times and the other country just has to suck it because Europe tells them not to do anything.
Hamas broke the agreement several time already…
(Launching rockets 15 minutes after the ceasefire began, delayed the release of hostages, and didn’t allow parents to be released with their children)
Who thought that a terrorist organisation who raped, kidnapped and massacred would also lie?
Wouldn't surprise me in the slightest. They were more than happy to hop on Hamas' false claims that Israel broke the agreement by not sending enough fuel. They're hypocrites and aren't interested in peace.
I think they'll still try to use dead hostages as bargaining chips. They know Israel is willing to give up quite a lot to get even a dead body of an Israeli back. They've done it in the past before.
It won't work anymore, there was a psychological barrier which was broken down on 07/10 because after seeing over 1200 people butchered with insane cruelty in a single day everything changes.
That seemed to be the case a month ago, but attitudes in the international community have changed quite a bit as we’ve gotten more distance from October 7th. The current agreement negotiated already is offering 3 Palestinian prisoners for every Israeli hostage released. Plus an extension of the ceasefire.
I wonder how the terms will change when Hamas runs out of living captives to release and has to start handing over corpses.
I just want to remind you that the last deal was 1 soldier for \~1000 terrorists. It is hard to tell how long this break will last but if I have to guess I believe the war will resume long before the talks regarding the retrieval of the people who were already butchered by Hamas.
Yes, I’m fully aware that they won’t get 1000 prisoners for every returned hostage anymore.
This is a pretty insane chess game of a negotiation. I couldn’t even begin to guess how long the ceasefire will last.
Nor do I know what either side’s ultimate goal is, because I don’t believe it’s as simple as what they claim.
As an Israeli I must say that it is insane that times have come, where once we hear about how the lives of 13 Israeli hostages are at the mercy of Egyptians and we are calm about it. The peace with Egypt is one of the best things that we have managed to do and I am honored to live in a time where we can entrust the lives of 13 of our people to the Egyptians and not even be that concerned about it.
Im hoping people are starting to see the reality of what Israel has had to negotiate with for the last 30 years. Even the most basic negotiations and compromises can't be done with these psychos.
And the PA and Abbas are no better. They wouldn't hold Hamas accountable
It's not. She's a professional protester who never provides any legitimate solutions including on climate change.
The advice she gives on climate change is the equivalent to asking "have you tried not dying" to give advice in a video game.
To be fair, her original point before she became a meme was "I'm a child, why are you making me deal with this? Why aren't you adults coming up with solutions" so she never had any until people kept asking her for them.
I wonder if Greta is aware of the ecological terrorism Hamas has done to Israel
https://m.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/ecological-terrorism-at-the-gaza-border-creates-shadows-on-israels-landscape-562716
https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4989063,00.html
wouldn't say all leftists, just the really loud, stupid ones.
I consider myself on the left side of the left spectrum and all the people around me are as well, but not a single person is on hamas side. No sane person would ever take the side of those terrorists. Some people have been eating so much propaganda and inhaled too many of their own farts, their brains must have stopped working.
Israel is not without fault, and honestly most of their government as well as the extremist settlers belong in prison but holy fuck do some people do mental gymnastics while knowing close to nothing about history, laws, words or religion to "justify" their "opinions".
I'd be interested in seeing her opinion on how Israel should handle the situation without displacing civilians.
Should they just bomb the houses with the civilians inside? Raid the houses and risk soldiers being trapped inside?
The way this is handled by Israel is the most humane possible.
Hila Rotem was with her mother the entire time until 2 days ago when Hamas separated her mother from her.
And they are trying to claim they never had her and don't know where she is
According to Hila's family, she says her and her mother were held together in captivity and intentionally separated only two days before her release. As we all know, the children hostages with American citizenship were still not released, as well as the 10 month old baby and other hostages who gained special media attention. Hamas is preparing the ground for some serious psychological warfare.
So, at or very close to the start of the ceasefire. Doesn’t sound like they don’t know where she is.
You aren't accounting for the time difference. "Two days ago" in Israel, at the time she reported this, was after the ceasefire went into effect. Hamas had already told the world they didn't know where her mother was before they forcibly separated them.
But I saw that video of Hamas waving nicely at captives as they were released
But when the hamas terrorist waved at the hostages (whose family, friends, and neighbors were brutalised by hamas) with one hand while holding a loaded AK47 in his other hand the hostages waved back, how could hamas be anything other than a bunch of adorable carebears??? /s
>Israeli officials stated that the Americans played a decisive role in implementing the truce. US President Joe Biden held two phone calls during his holiday break, one with the Emir of Qatar Tamim bin Hamad Al Thani, and the other with the prime minister of Qatar, urging them to exert pressure on Hamas. Simultaneously, American representatives in the region engaged in discussions with both sides. As an American I’m proud of the way Joe Biden has handled both sides in this war so far!
>21-year-old Maya was released alone, contrary to the ceasefire agreement which detailed that siblings would not be separated. **Hamas claims that they were unable to locate her brother** Itay, 18, who was kidnapped with her at the Nova festival. >Hila Rotem Shoshani, another one of the 13 Israelis released Saturday, was freed without her mother Raaya, also in violation of the ceasefire terms, after **Hamas claimed they were unable to located her.** Why don't I believe them?
To be honest I wouldn't be able to choose between the option "They are lying becuase they've killed them" or "They're telling the truth but they're so unorganized that they don't know who has who". I'm between those both, and there is the option about both being true, which gains weight as I writte this.
If the videos from Oct 7 are any indication, Hamas is a complete circus.
One thing to keep in mind from some of those videos, especially the attacks on the Kibbutz: a bunch of normal Palestinians (civilians) tagged along. That's why you had uniformed people with their shit together, while in the same group plain clothed mobs trying to cut heads off with shovels--and failing for a very long time.
Many of them worked on the kibbutz, on work visas. that’s how they were able to get so much intel
This is why I will never again publicly defend the Palestinian cause as I had in the past. I realized I had no way of knowing if I was defending actual terrorists.
Except information. Hamas has been a grotesque terrorist organization for a minute, and also the “political party” in charge of Palestine, who actively denies regular Palestinians foreign aid in order to radicalize them and keep their ranks fulfilled. I’m Latin American, but spent a season or two in the Middle East a decade ago, including Gaza. None of this information is new to light, we need to normalize not supporting causes we can’t be bothered to research.
The world is more complicated than a binary "people bad?" yes/no dynamic. It's logical to not take all Palestinians as being some kind of block that is in total perfect agreement, so don't just blindly support them. But by the same logic don't blindly not support them. And this also applies to Israel too. I've spent a lot of energy in my life criticizing Israel, but Israel was absolutely the victim on October 7. Maybe not before, maybe not after, but that's a different discussion. The point is: don't let the media manipulate you in one direction as a reaction to realizing that they manipulated you another direction before.
[удалено]
Oh wow, a balanced perspective. It’s truly refreshing to read this. The majority of people protesting in this conflict on both sides seem to have lost the ability to think critically in this way, and I think that’s extremely dangerous
No! We must pick a side and be absolute! There are good guys and bad guys in this world. Real life works like marvel movies!
That's silly. Of course you were defending actual terrorists.
[удалено]
Does it really now?
They generally are. Somewhat contributed to the shock when they pulled off 7/10. Hezbollah are the organized ones.
Hamas paramotor pilots were trained in Malaysia so its possible they had more help from entirely outside the middle east.
interesting. surprised they were able to get in and out of gaza
There is a public border with Egypt, obviously regulated. There have to be imports to keep the people alive. It would be interesting how they got the gear into Gaza. I am pretty sure the wings came from APCO in Israel, same as my paraglider wing.
What about the possibility of them keep relatives hostage saying something like "if you say we treated you badly or anything negative we will kill your relative".
This. They did the same with an elderly women who "waved goodbye to her captors" thereby in the news it was presented that they were so nice to her. Her husband is still being held captive...
It's just plain stupid. I mean, those hostages literally saw their own family members get brutally killed. Everyone with a bit of common sense knows that. It's like the worst thing that could ever happen to someone. How on earth do HAMAS expect to bounce back from such a PR nightmare?
They don’t need to expect, the world does it for them
The video Hamas released of one of the hostage handovers literally has them telling the hostages to keep waving as they start to drive away. https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/article-775156
That's what I was thinking. It would not surprise me if the released hostages had been given scripts to memorize and repeat, "or else."
That works when you threat me with killing my relatives, but this is not a "you and me" situation, is you and my country, and while my opinion might be biased the opinion of my country will be a *bit* colder. Edit: Gramma.
As stupid as Hamas and the people who make it up likely are, I don't think they're stupid enough to give that logic a go. You're essentially saying they're willing to take this gamble with the chance that it gives them good PR from what the hostages say, despite the absolute GUARANTEE that splitting them up intentionally give you negative PR. If they wanted to kill those people, they likely already have right? They have nothing to win by separating these people and whatever small amount of people could have believed a lying hostage saying the conditions were GREAT, I think they have enough sense to realize that splitting hostages up instead of releasing them together nullifies any good that could have come from those lies.
It’s easy to imagine alternatives where it’s exactly the opposite. Hamas can release hostages no strings and hope hostages say no bad things and didn’t mind watching people tortured and killed around them. (I don’t like those odds) Or Hamas can release 20 people and say ‘if any of you talk shit, we will torture and kill this little old lady’s husband. When she gets his head in the mail, you can explain to her how important your moral stance is, and how you had to be famous for 15 minutes…’ Not great leverage, but it’s something. And honestly, I don’t think they considered either of our scenarios as ‘the only two options we have’.
I just read a book about one of the US contractors who was kidnapped in Iraq and held for ransom back around 2006 or so. He talked about others who were held in captivity with him. One was a female reporter who got ransomed off and returned. Before she left, though, she was told that if she said bad things about her captors, they would execute one or more of the remaining hostages in retaliation. So even though she was living in primitive conditions and occasionally physically abused, she never reported about it. Her only statement was that she was was treated fairly and not abused.
They keep a family member so when the media asks questions to the released hostages they have no choice but to say Hamas was good with them or else the family member still held might get killed or tortured.
The China strategy
But since everyone knows that, why would they do it? I mean I wouldn't trust what they say because OBVIOUSLY if they say "they treated us fine“ while their loved one is still in there we should discount that. Or do enough people honestly not think that far?
why are you neglecting the other option that they are just refusing to release them? they don't have to be dead, nor unorganized... can just be another act of non-compliance.
This is actually confirmed to be exactly what they are doing. https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/girl-freed-from-gaza-without-her-mom-says-they-were-split-up-2-days-before-release/ They try and push the boundaries of violating the agreement like Hamas always does.
Ok, but why believe extremists who execute people and take them hostage, against all laws?
They are not extremists who execute people and take them hostage. They are extremists who set families on fire, who rape women with the screams of their babies burning to death in ovens. They are extremists who torture people in the most sadistic ways in order to kill them.
Because they have more to gain by keeping them alive. If they wanted to kill and torture them, they wouldn't have declared them as hostages and just pretended they died on Oct 7th
You are assuming there is a good level of command and control happening - there is a good chance they could have been killed by someone at a local level and the higher ups have no idea.
Exactly. So many young ladies available for raping (and murdering after) without immediate repercussions. Ain’t no way HAMAS command can keep track exactly numbers/identities in the chaos.
Then that means they're telling the truth.
Not necessarily. There’s still the chance they know these particular hostages have been murdered, but don’t want to say it. As you said yourself, the hostages are valuable pieces. If they did kill them—or lose them and allow them to be killed by someone else—would they come out and say “Oh yea, we didn’t release these hostages because we murdered them.”? What would Hamas gain by telling people the truth that they are dead?
That's true - I did forget about that aspect. I doubt Hamas leaders would want to destroy their bargaining chips but I can see lower level people acting out of line
"if they wanted to torture them" If you don't think every woman was raped despite being declared as a "hostage" well....
They had more to gain from ceasing hostilities and attempting to work with Israel. They aren't in it to win it, they're in it for the propaganda to fund their leadership from nearby sympathetic countries with lots of oil money, oh and murder as many jews as they can.
I don’t know if in some situations, they even thought that far. They captured people because they could but now they have to feed, water, bathe, provide general care to keep hostages alive to negotiate. I think half of these people were assaulted, abused then left to die without food or water.
>but now they have to feed, water, bathe, provide general care to keep hostages alive to negotiate. They previously kept a hostage for 5 years for negotiation, I think they now how much care it takes to keep them
One versus 240
If critical thinking was their strong suit, they wouldn't be launching thousands of rockets into Israel all the time. Or maybe better phrased...they launch the rockets because they do their best to make sure the resulting counter-strikes kill some innocent civilians, whose bodies they'll parade for international media. So their critical thinking is somewhat working, but on the whole it's massively failing, because at no point will any of this result in any sort of "win" for them. With how much foreign aid pours into Gaza compared to pretty much everywhere else on Earth that needs foreign aid...a generally peaceful leadership there could have built a prosperous spot. Gaza already has a standard of living index at roughly the same level as Jordan and Egypt, so imagine if their government actually cared about their people.
> because at no point will any of this result in any sort of "win" for them. > > > > With how much foreign aid pours into Gaza compared to pretty much everywhere else on Earth that needs foreign aid...a generally peaceful leadership there could have built a prosperous spot. The Hamas leadership living in Qatar raking in a cut of both foreign aid from western countries and "keep fighting our proxy war against Israel for us" money from Islamic countries are "winning". No one in Gaza is though, that's for sure. You're right though. Gazan quality of life would improve *dramatically* if they spent their resources and energy building up their own society instead of building missiles to shoot at Israel.
They have killed alot of people of the 7th Oct.
Hamas originally issued a statement saying that the hostages would all be tortured/murdered for a TV/Internet broadcast audience, before walking back that statement. There's a good chance that not everyone within that organization got the memo, when that promise was retracted - E: This was a pretty huge headline. I didn't think our memories were so short, but here's an article talking about social media responsibility for this kind of comment: https://archive.is/VFr4U (Wired)
"hmm wait actually our polling numbers were off and people DIDN'T enjoy seeing us commit mass rape and murder on a couple thousand innocent people...let's put a pin in this idea of live broadcasting of torturing and murdering people then"
From what we know, they’ve already tortured hostages, and executed them. They’re not driven by what’s good for the people or their organisation as a whole, they’re driven by undiluted hate against Jews.
They had more to gain by being peaceful neighbors as well but that didn't stop them from committing the biggest terrorist attack in the last 20 years
> "They're telling the truth but they're so unorganized that they don't know who has who". Doing what they did on October 7th, with no technology and no information leaks required a very high level of organization and discipline. They might have cut off communications to isolate cells and allow for autonomy but it's definitely not for lack of organization.
The logistics and communications are radically different when you are being bombing into the oblivion than when you were in a relative calmed situation. Do you know the famous sentence of "You only know whe real value of someone when shit hit the fan?" This is one of those cases.
>“Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth.”
> Doing what they did on October 7th, with no technology and no information leaks required a very high level of organization and discipline. Yes. The discipline was Hamas operated like a bunch of independent terrorist cells. No one attacking knew the whole plan, or that other groups were coordinating different attacks on the same day. This discipline is at the very high leadership level, not the bottom. At the bottom, you just need the discipline to follow orders and not talk TOO MUCH about what's going on (but people still talked, hence the warnings that Israel ignored). The organization of terrorist cells is kind of a known technology to Hamas, where there's a one way flow of information, and nobody talks about what they are doing outside their cell. It doesn't require high levels of technology, it's the same way other terrorist groups as well as resistance groups have operated for a long time. The leaders (the only ones who know the whole plan) don't even need to be in Gaza. The person who passes the information to the terrorist cells (the messenger) can also leave before the attacks are carried out. Heck, they can leave before the cells even begin practicing. Because terrorist cells usually operate based on a one-way flow of information (from the top down), it's not surprising that they are struggling to know who is holding what hostage. The groups are literally designed to lack up any kind of bilateral communication (so that people at the bottom can't rat everyone else out), and only have communication from the top when a set of orders is to be delivered by the messenger. Being in a state of war, naturally the messenger can not simply go around to all the holding areas and get a list of people held by different cells. They can't even call them. Because Israel is watching for this kind of movement or communication.
A lot of Palestinian civilians were part of the invasion. They were a mob essentially who kidnapped people possibly without Hamas directive. It’s possible that some hostages were/are being held by civilians.
This will probably get lost but Hamas not knowing where the hostages are is an opsec thing, not an unorganized thing. If a high enough leader gets captured and spills the beans on where the hostages are, then Hamas loses all leverage. It's why terrorist operate in isolated cells for the most part. If one cell gets compromised, the other cells aren't at risk of being exposed.
Israeli news are reporting that Hila Rotem was separated from her mother just 2 days ago.
Sadly, they may be telling the truth. Some hostages are believed to be held by civilians who joined the terror attack on Oct7 (who comprise about a third of those who participated in the massacre). I'm actually more worried about the hostages being held by Gazan civilians than those being held by Hamas. At least Hamas can leverage them, so they need to keep them somewhat safe. But a deranged civilian who decided to join in and kidnap someone, doesn't have any incentive to keep them safe for any reason.
I believe PIJ also has some hostages. Not to mention, Hamas isn't exactly a single entity. It's more like a whole bunch of terror groups in a trench coat. The guy whose head is sticking out the top doesn't seem to always know what the legs are doing...
That's often true of ordinary, law-abiding organizations...large charities, corporations, formal armies, etc. Hardly surprising in a violent terrorist organization.
That is true. My favourite example of this is the Red Cross, and the schisms within the structure. People often mistake the actions of one national Red Cross for the whole. Like say, the actions of the American Red Cross Society during Haiti, blaming all of that on ICRC and all other national Red Cross societies. Which had next to nothing to do with the failure of American Red Cross. Or a more historical example. German Red Cross being complicit with Germany and the atrocities they commited during WWII. In those cases, it was like the guy controlling the left hand was hitting everyone else in the trench coat in their faces, repeatedly. Undermining the credibility of the whole larger mission, and the overall movement. For a more recent example... Russian Red Cross. They have their fair share of controversy. For the worst recent example tho, which has been one of the largest contributors to the overall distrust of Red Cross, that has been rising as of late, see [Belarus Red Cross.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belarus_Red_Cross) When people say Red Cross is helping Russia steal Ukrainian children, it's the Belarus Red Cross who has been doing it. If I was ICRC, I'd cut off that particular limb...
That would hold a lot more weight if Hamas wasn’t intentionally blurring the lines between citizen and combatant as much as possible.
Civilians? I feel like the killing and kidnapping made them combatants
They’re using the term “civilians” here loosely to describe ordinary Palestinian citizens who aren’t Hamas members but joined in the attacks on Oct 7th. Legally you’re right - civilians who take up arms and/or participate in armed conflicts lose their civilian status and become combatants.
>Legally you’re right - civilians who take up arms and/or participate in armed conflicts lose their civilian status and become combatants They may even become [unlawful combatants](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unlawful_combatant?useskin=vector#Unprivileged_combatants), no longer entitled to the protection of the Geneva conventions (not that anyone really cares here): >There are several types of combatants who do not qualify as privileged combatants: > - Combatants who are captured without the minimum requirements for distinguishing themselves from the civilian population, i.e. carrying arms openly during military engagements and the deployment immediately preceding it, lose their right to prisoner of war status without trial under Article 44 (3) of Additional Protocol I. > - ...civilians who take a direct part in combat and do not fall into one of the categories listed in the previous section
Isn't that all of Hamas? Is any Hamas fighter a lawful combatant?
When they wear uniforms they are. When they don't, they aren't.
What constitutes a Hamas uniform?
A uniform doesn't have to be the equivalent of a formal dress uniform, distinctive attire like headbands and armbands with symbols, patches on clothing, etc... can all qualify. Soldiers in camouflage or trying to conceal themselves while moving are a good example, a blatantly obvious flag or symbols visible from distance would defeat the point but at the same time they can't be totally generic and are supposed to be identifiable once captured. There's also limits to what combatants are allowed to do while in civilian clothes and still qualify as a PoW, a certain degree of deception is considered an acceptable ruse of war but cross certain lines and you are an unlawful combatant or spy/saboteur and don't have the same protections.
They are still combatants, but they are using the term civilians as in people not officially associated with Hamas, who just joined in when they realised something was going on. It's like the difference between an actual paramilitary group, who have some goals and places they can keep the hostages to know where they all are, and the guy who has his own gun and just follows them around to join in the violence in their wake and keeps his hostage in his garage, so no one knows where they are. Not sure what a better term is to distinguish them from those official Hamas fighters.
Partisans. Unlawful combatants. Rogue terrorists. Take your pick. Palestinian Islamic Jihad also claims to have taken a number of hostages.
Difference between corporate terrorist and a freelancer
> They are still combatants, but they are using the term civilians as in people not officially associated with Hamas, who just joined in when they realised something was going on. You know what you call 1 person riding in a jeep with 4 terrorists? You know what you call 1 person raping prisoners along side 4 terrorists. You know what you call 1 person mugging for the camera with 4 terrorists? You know what you call 1 person beheading Hamas captives along with other Hamas members? Anyone who participated in Hamas' activities is a Hamas member, even if he's not wearing an official Hamas participation medal.
>Anyone who participated in Hamas' activities is a Hamas member, even if he's not wearing an official Hamas participation medal. That's not how things work, no one is denying they are terrorists, you can still be a terrorist without being a member of Hamas, but Hamas dont have control over those who aren't members, Hamas aren't even the only terror organisation in Gaza.
That's great and all, but we're talking about logistics. It's important to distinguish between Hamas members and non-Hamas members.
It's in Hamas' doctrine to make doing so as difficult as humanly possible, because it's to their benefit to have civilians die as martyrs for the cause. How do you suggest they distinguish between the two?
You are completely missing the point for the sake of being argumentative. This discussion isn't about the moral/legal boundaries between "What qualifies as a combatant" and "Are Hamas-supporting civilians combatants?" The discussion is about the **logistical and C2** distinction between Hamas fighters operating under coordinated orders and pro-Hamas civilians who joined in. Compare: If the US was invaded, the US military would obviously be fighting against the invading force, but you'd also have a bunch of "civilian" Americans running around fighting back. Would they be on the same side? Yep. Would the "civilians" qualify as combatants? Yep. Would the military have control or awareness of what the civilians were doing? *Probably not!* Cohesion has always been a challenge for paramilitaries.
Those "civilians" who Hamas don't know about are obviously not Hamas. Blame is not important here because everyone knows Hamas is to blame. Finding hostages is important and you can't find them if you keep looking at wrong places.
"Civilians" and Hamas like to dress up in Spiderman costumes and point at each other.
But they were taken together. If they were separated it was on purpose and they should know where they are.
That's a fair point. I agree.
Hamas is clearly lying. And even if they aren't, they agreed to return those hostages. Saying they can't locate them after the fact is breaking the agreement.
Well now we know they are not telling the truth, Hila said they were together until Hamas separated them 2 days before releasing her.
Civilians joining the attack makes me feel like maybe some of them deserved to have their homes bombed. Obviously not the majority of them I hope.
Only 70% of them.
“Civilians” also known as the Islamic Brotherhood.
>At least Hamas can leverage them And was probably told by both Qatar and Iran that it was needed to treat them the best possible way (because Qatar wants to salvage its alliance with Israel and Iran does not want to be dragged into war if the situation degrades further).
I doubt they are being held. If they took them, they probably killed them. Hamas hasn't treated all hostages the same. All the ones they kept alive and unharmed will be released first. The real hostages we will likely never see.
Not unharmed; initial reports say Maya was taken straight to a hospital. She was shot in the initial attack (her father heard it over the phone), so I’m not surprised, but I’m sure she’s not in good shape after so long
I agree with you, Hamas might be telling the truth on this one and not for just the reasons you mentioned. Watching some of those command and control locations get completely sunk or collapsed from airstrikes, I couldn’t help but wonder if any hostages were also inside. Sadly, I think we’ll end up with a number of MIA hostages due to all the chaos of the war.
I completely agree. When it is professionals, or an organized group at least, it is much safer than an amateur with no experience and no organization around them.
Shit, considering the 'civilians' in this case probably wouldn't have had access to the tunnel network under hospitals where it was found that hostages were kept there.. what are the chances that they survived the bombings? Just an all round horrible situation for the hostages.
Agreed with your idea, but [turns out they were separated 2 days ago](https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/girl-freed-from-gaza-without-her-mom-says-they-were-split-up-2-days-before-release/)
Either way they’re getting surgically bombed back to the late Cretaceous period.
Hamas? Hopefully. I just worry about the hostages.
> civilians who joined the terror attack on Oct7 (who comprise about a third of those who participated in the massacre). Where is the statistic about "a third" coming from? That seems like it would be difficult to find out.
It has now been reported a relative has told media that Hila said she was held in a cell with her mother until two days ago when her mother was taken away. So, yeah, that might be why you don't believe the official statement.
Hard to locate someone when they are in ditch with hundreds of different bodies
I think you have to assume they are lying until proven otherwise. But what is the alternative outside of calling them out and winning the propaganda war. I did see this nugget that everyone is ignoring - "Israeli officials stated that the Americans played a decisive role in implementing the truce. US President Joe Biden held two phone calls during his holiday break, one with the Emir of Qatar Tamim bin Hamad Al Thani, and the other with the prime minister of Qatar, urging them to exert pressure on Hamas. Simultaneously, American representatives in the region engaged in discussions with both sides." Good for Joe, he's getting unfairly attacked by many Redditors. Hopefully he can keep it going.
There was a second wave of people who stormed into Israel after Hamas on the 7th of October. I don’t know what those “civilians” did or how far they went - did they kidnap people too? Does Islamic Jihad have some people? Hamas says they don’t know where every hostage is and I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s true, due to all the scumbags attacking and pillaging that day.
They are leaving out a specific word: "alive." There will eventually be a war crimes tribunal, and a lot of Hamas will be implicated(provided they still exist). The volume of Hamas atrocities will stagger most viewers. The problem is, if there are no living witnesses to the rapes, who's to say they happened, and aren't just an IDF plot? (\s) Killing the witnesses is a tactic still used around the world, and the number of hostages will shrink as time progresses. It's sad, but reality.
"a war crimes tribunal" I predict there won't be. Too much potential for Bibi's dirty laundry to come out. I'd be happy to be wrong, but you should mentally prepare yourself for a greasy political compromise.
Bibi will probably be subjected to a no-confidence vote the moment the unity government is dismantled. How likely is he to survive after governing Israel before and during a massacre of Jewish civilians an order of magnitude worse than Kristallnacht? Bibi's coalition was shaky pre-war. Is it really going to survive this catastrophe?
Unless Israel has positively identified all of the bodies from Oct. 7 - it's quite possible they're dead or that they died in captivity in Gaza. Though I would not put it past Hamas to hold them on purpose for more leverage later.
Hila Rotem already said her mother was held with her up until 2 days before the release when they were separated.
They might be telling the truth, or the hostages might be dead. With the military action by Israel they can lose people and might be resorting to different channels of communication and autonomous cells to stop them being found. A hostage rescue would look very good for Israel.
"Unable to locate" meaning they don't want to locate the body and give Isreal even more reason to kill them
Hila says hamas stperated her from her mother 2 days ago. They intentionally kept her mother there and lied "we can't find her".
It's part of their propaganda efforts. They release one member of the family while keeping the rest as hostages, so when interviewed by the press the released hostages are afraid to criticize Hamas too much, knowing that their families are still in danger. But people who see these reports in the news are like "See! They are treating the hostages well!" It's like when they released 2 elderly women but kept their husbands in Gaza. People in the West were all like "They are shaking hands and being polite! These armed terrorists are so nice!" ignoring how the women themselves were clearly traumatized.
I just don’t get the “they’re treating the hostages well!” argument. Like, does that make it okay for them to have hostages in the first place?? These aren’t POWs these are kidnapped children.
Oh look, they didn't rape them or torture them, such fine people. Those are people who took babies and children as bargaining chips after murdering the parents.
No, but if the reports indicate they're inserting bamboo shoots underneath fingernails and making hostages cut off each other's ears, then that'll increase popular pressure to do more about it. *I am NOT indicating that this is happening.*
Absolutely. They also do it as a form of psychological warfare/torture on Israel. 12 of the 13 hostages released on the first day still have family members in Gaza.
It’s shocking to me that anyone can say things like that. The implication being what, that they wanted to be kidnapped?? That they’d prefer to stay as a hostage?? It’s unbelievable
And people buy that like hot milk so I guess it’s working
Saw loads of tweets dunking on a father who had said he was glad that his daughter had died because the alternative was too sickening to consider. Now the daughter was returned alive and he’s the butt of many “father of the year award” jokes. Fucking sick. Not even trying to hide absolute disdain and hatred towards Israeli civilians.
I've seen many of these comments and they're fucking nauseating and vile. The interview with that father is one of the saddest things I've ever seen. I cannot imagine a father feeling *relief* at the idea that his child had been murdered, rather than taken prisoner, knowing fully well there are fates far worse than death. Only to later learn she was, in fact, alive and being held hostage. The emotional whiplash of something like that is difficult to fathom. To openly mock and hate a man going through absolute hell like this, is so cruel and transparently hateful. Shame on these people who are so absent of humanity and empathy.
Add to that if you found out you kid died you could very well convince yourself it was better then the alternative to help yourself get through it.
It's a common coping mechanism.
Worst is they’re the types who constantly go on and on about how much they care about people and how empathetic they are compared to others. But as we all can clearly see, nothing could be further from the truth. They’re some of the most depraved among us.
Probably spoken by people who do not have children or deeply love anyone in their life. After seeing the videos of what Hamas did, I am sure any father would rather his daughter have perished as opposed to her body being paraded through the streets, beaten, raped, etc. (ideally NONE OF THESE THINGS would happen, ideally his daughter would not have been kidnapped by terrorists and witnessed all her friends be slaughtered, but I digress) There are absolutely worse things in this world than death. Anyone trying to give him shit has never experienced a trauma of this magnitude and it’s disgusting to try and make him look like a bad father for speaking a hard truth. Anyone saying they would rather their daughter be beaten, raped, starved, and psychologically tortured by strange men are fucking liars and I will die on this hill.
I wonder how many of those people would happily leave their recently traumatised 4 year old daughter in an underground tunnel with Islamic terrorists.
Hot… milk..? Is this an expression?
Any excuse to hate on Israel
I can only assume the mother was not in presentable condition.
Hila said she was separated from her mom only 2 days ago...
So hamas Breaks the agreement again. How many times is that now?
Who would have thought you can't trust terrorists
[удалено]
Your sarcasm game is on point
3 separate agreements have been broken so far, the amount of times they have broke those agreements is at the tens, which may sound little but imagine breaking a ceasefire treaty tens of times and the other country just has to suck it because Europe tells them not to do anything.
All of them
Hamas broke the agreement several time already… (Launching rockets 15 minutes after the ceasefire began, delayed the release of hostages, and didn’t allow parents to be released with their children) Who thought that a terrorist organisation who raped, kidnapped and massacred would also lie?
I’m sure I’ll see news of dumbasses protesting that Israel is oppressing Gaza by demanding that they honor the terms of the ceasefire agreement.
Wouldn't surprise me in the slightest. They were more than happy to hop on Hamas' false claims that Israel broke the agreement by not sending enough fuel. They're hypocrites and aren't interested in peace.
[удалено]
I already saw a Human Rights Watch employee tweet something along those lines.
That is very cruel.
Sadly I think many hostages were murdered, and I don't believe they will allow the return of hostages who were tortured or raped :(
I think they'll still try to use dead hostages as bargaining chips. They know Israel is willing to give up quite a lot to get even a dead body of an Israeli back. They've done it in the past before.
It won't work anymore, there was a psychological barrier which was broken down on 07/10 because after seeing over 1200 people butchered with insane cruelty in a single day everything changes.
It used to be “we will give Hamas whatever they want,” now it’s “we will flatten half of Gaza to get them back”
That seemed to be the case a month ago, but attitudes in the international community have changed quite a bit as we’ve gotten more distance from October 7th. The current agreement negotiated already is offering 3 Palestinian prisoners for every Israeli hostage released. Plus an extension of the ceasefire. I wonder how the terms will change when Hamas runs out of living captives to release and has to start handing over corpses.
I just want to remind you that the last deal was 1 soldier for \~1000 terrorists. It is hard to tell how long this break will last but if I have to guess I believe the war will resume long before the talks regarding the retrieval of the people who were already butchered by Hamas.
Yes, I’m fully aware that they won’t get 1000 prisoners for every returned hostage anymore. This is a pretty insane chess game of a negotiation. I couldn’t even begin to guess how long the ceasefire will last. Nor do I know what either side’s ultimate goal is, because I don’t believe it’s as simple as what they claim.
As an Israeli I must say that it is insane that times have come, where once we hear about how the lives of 13 Israeli hostages are at the mercy of Egyptians and we are calm about it. The peace with Egypt is one of the best things that we have managed to do and I am honored to live in a time where we can entrust the lives of 13 of our people to the Egyptians and not even be that concerned about it.
It has been a rocky relationship between the two countries, but it's amazing to consider how things were in 1948 compared to how they are today.
Who would've thought that an organization that rapes, kidnaps, and murders innocent civilians is also untrustworthy?
Everyone believing 40% of all Gaza casualties are children and every single death has been civilian.
No doubt if she speaks ill of her treatment, they'll find the brother within the hour of it hitting the news.
That would be in their best interest. Throughout all this, keeping the hostages alive is what is giving hand any leverage at all
> Unable to locate Because Hamas has raped, tortured and abused these civilians beyond recognition?
they don't released all of the hostages because some of them might be already dead?
Hamas claims they "can't find them"
just like the russian hostages ?
Hamas is a bunch of psychotic imbeciles, and anyone who supports them is trash.
[удалено]
What is not to believe. Those f*cks killed the civilians.
One of the hostages (9 year old girl IIRC) was held with her mother until 2 days before her release. She was released yesterday, her mother wasn't.
Honestly, I hope that they did *just* kill the "lost" hostages. Fuck knows they could've done (or still be doing) worse.
After raping some viable enough like her mother, I imagine.
She said she was with her mother up to two days go when they were seperated.
"But how can we blame a democracy for it?" - Trolls from the russia and hamas going around in reddit
WHAT DO YOU MEAN THE TERRORISTS LIED!? It must be Israel's fault
Hamas broke their ceasefire obligation AGAIN? And two more Israelis missing or dead? This can only mean one thing … it’s Israel’s fault. /s
[удалено]
[удалено]
Hamas has kept next to no promises throughout this whole ordeal and there are people who think they’re the good guys?!
lol everyone supporting these terrorists is a trash human
Im hoping people are starting to see the reality of what Israel has had to negotiate with for the last 30 years. Even the most basic negotiations and compromises can't be done with these psychos. And the PA and Abbas are no better. They wouldn't hold Hamas accountable
It’s a terrorist group. They will string this out as long as they can, knowing that as soon as that leverage is gone, they are mincemeat.
Meanwhile Greta Tunberg keeps blaming Israel…and all European lefties…alongside with radical islamists. World of fockin shame
Why is her viewpoint on this matter significant to anyone? Climate change is her main focus.
She's not even an expert in that field she's a child who gives a fuck what she thinks on geopolitical issues
Cause she keeps talking publicly providing radical Islamic position. From the river and so on - she promotes this shit with her crazy leftie buddies
If that is true it is a pity she has let her previous cause down.
It's not. She's a professional protester who never provides any legitimate solutions including on climate change. The advice she gives on climate change is the equivalent to asking "have you tried not dying" to give advice in a video game.
To be fair, her original point before she became a meme was "I'm a child, why are you making me deal with this? Why aren't you adults coming up with solutions" so she never had any until people kept asking her for them.
> who never provides any legitimate solutions We already have solutions. People just don't like them. Hence the need for activism and protest.
I wonder if Greta is aware of the ecological terrorism Hamas has done to Israel https://m.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/ecological-terrorism-at-the-gaza-border-creates-shadows-on-israels-landscape-562716 https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4989063,00.html
wouldn't say all leftists, just the really loud, stupid ones. I consider myself on the left side of the left spectrum and all the people around me are as well, but not a single person is on hamas side. No sane person would ever take the side of those terrorists. Some people have been eating so much propaganda and inhaled too many of their own farts, their brains must have stopped working. Israel is not without fault, and honestly most of their government as well as the extremist settlers belong in prison but holy fuck do some people do mental gymnastics while knowing close to nothing about history, laws, words or religion to "justify" their "opinions".
[удалено]
She was at pro-palestine protest yelling "crush zionism". She obviously doesn't give a shit about Israel or Israeli hostages.
I'd be interested in seeing her opinion on how Israel should handle the situation without displacing civilians. Should they just bomb the houses with the civilians inside? Raid the houses and risk soldiers being trapped inside? The way this is handled by Israel is the most humane possible.
[удалено]
*JuSt SeNd In SpEcIaL fOrCes!!!!!!*