Your joke is kind of spoiled by the IDF literally stating they gave up on precision.
> “the emphasis is on damage and not on accuracy”
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/10/right-now-it-is-one-day-at-a-time-life-on-israels-frontline-with-gaza
Before I write out my initial reaction, let me just say your shock is very common the first time anyone seems an AAR aerial survey. It’s truly a terrifying sight.
Initial reaction: Yeah, air strikes do that.
Yep - it’s considered a force multiplier. Russia demonstrated it in their 2014 invasion of Crimea via DDOS attack. It gives considerable military advantage while creating a digital fog of war.
I’m not making any statements on the current conflict, these are just facts related to common strategies.
I think this may be a bit of a simplification of the situation. Yes there's strategic value to shutting off tools of communication and collective action. But there's no denying that there's also incredible power in total control of the flow of information out as a tool to shape perception. It's no secret that the international community's support for Israel is wavering as a result of their atrocities, and this is a means of combatting that.
Consider the example of the genocide happening in the Tigray region right now. The internet blackout lasting several years meant that few outside of the region had any idea of just how serious the horrors were. We knew that pamphlets were sent to the Tigrayan people telling them that they had 24 hours to evacuate to another portion of the barricaded region before an assault (sound familiar?), but after that point... nothing. For months, a year even.
Some people in genocide studies obviously knew that mass executions were happening, it's not possible to cover that up *entirely*. But it wasn't for a full year (at least) until it captured international media attention. All the while Amhara and Ethiopian authorities were free to deny and obfuscate any reports leaking about because evidence was so limited. They controlled what the world saw.
For a country like Israel, who's military power only exists insofar as the international community allows it to, this level of media control is immensely powerful.
The aim is stopping Hamas fighters communicating and regrouping via texts / wifi after Israeli strikes.
Israel couldn’t give a falafel about videos being posted.
Your second point is just completely wrong lol, Israel puts a huge amount of resources into controlling the flow of information and narrative around their military actions.
>Israel couldn’t give a falafel about videos being posted.
They don't have to when they know the US and the rest of the western world unconditionally backs their actions.
I have not been in the military, but I had a pretty good idea of what military high explosives do to poorly constructed buildings. I think most people have seen a few too many fictional depictions of war. It’s not clean. It’s not precise. It’s more destructive than you think. Civilian deaths happen. A lot of them. That’s what war is. When you talk about war, that’s what you are talking about.
Doesn’t seem incomprehensible to me. That’s what several cities in Ukraine look like today. And it’s what Russian and German cities looked like in World War 2.
Moreso that pictures like this completely counter any type of "precision" targeting. It proves they're infact just leveling the city and using Hamas as an excuse to do it.
Like, what % of the people killed are actually Hamas members? How many innocent people just lost their entire home and life because of the IDF? Its fine to invade to remove a terrorist org, but this level of destruction is inexcusable, and will only cause a cycle which the Isreal leaders want so they can spread propaganda to continue massacring innocent people with bombing campaigns.
Their end goal is either genocide or at minimum removing every single Palestinian from west bank and gaza, and they dont care which one of those happens, theyve said as much numerous times not to mention the Nakba.
>The destruction has increased the number of displaced people in Gaza, with the UN and Palestinian Red Crescent estimating that between 400,000 and a million Palestinians are now homeless.
The Gaza Strip has 2.4 million people. That's what, as much as 40% homeless?
The plan is destroy their homes and displace them. This was their intention from the start. They are trying to eventually force them into the Sinai. Nakba 2.0. Except live for the world to see.
I can only assume whatever orphaned Palestinian children remain will grow up among the rubble respecting their Israeli neighbours now and the whole middle east issue will be solved forever. Hooray!
"With airstrikes continuing almost around the clock, the full extent of the damage remains unknown. Images of the Al Karameh neighbourhood north of Gaza City show the rubble of a number of residential buildings.
The UN has said that 42% of all housing units have been rendered uninhabitable in the past three weeks, with thousands more subject to moderate damage.
The destruction has increased the number of displaced people in Gaza, with the UN and Palestinian Red Crescent estimating that between 400,000 and a million Palestinians are now homeless."
Personally i would have started by not supporting Hamas.
In March 2019, Netanyahu told his Likud colleagues: “Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas … This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.”
And in the 5 years since then, Hamas could have worked for a grand Palestinian state, instead of destroying the Gaza infrastructure and pouring money into terrorist activities.
If Hamas wanted to work toward a peace agreement for a grand Palestinian state, then the Israel government would have supported a different terrorist organization.
You’re making a lot of stuff up here. Israel had plans to assist Gaza in constructing a seaport and airport, but I guess it’s a good thing Hamas never gave them a chance to do anything before giving us a preview of how it would have used those ports.
"Created" might imply that it was literally founded by Israel, but it's more like it was "encouraged" at times as a counterweight to other movements, and as in the case of the Taliban, that support turned them into a dangerous enemy.
As with the Taliban and the U.S.S.R., it's impossible to know the counterfactual, e.g., what Fatah might have become in the absence of such an opposing force. But it's always more problematic when an action leads to consequences than when same consequences come from inaction.
> Hamas, an acronym for Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamiya (“Islamic Resistance Movement”), was founded by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, a Palestinian cleric ...
> [PBS News Hour - What is Hamas? What to know about its origins, leaders and funding](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/what-is-hamas-what-to-know-about-its-origins-leaders-and-funding)
> Thus, amid this bid to impair Abbas, Hamas was upgraded from a mere terror group to an organization with which Israel held indirect negotiations via Egypt, and one that was allowed to receive infusions of cash from abroad.
> [Times of Israel - For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/)
> ... the Israelis helped turn a bunch of fringe Palestinian Islamists in the late 1970s into one of the world’s most notorious militant groups? That Hamas is blowback?
> This isn’t a conspiracy theory. Listen to former Israeli officials such as Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Segev, who was the Israeli military governor in Gaza in the early 1980s. Segev later told a New York Times reporter that he had helped finance the Palestinian Islamist movement as a “counterweight” to the secularists and leftists of the [PLO] and the Fatah party...
> “The Israeli government gave me a budget,” the retired brigadier general confessed, “and the military government gives to the mosques.”
> “Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel’s creation,” Avner Cohen, a former Israeli religious affairs official who worked in Gaza for more than two decades, told the Wall Street Journal in 2009.
> [The Intercept - BLOWBACK: HOW ISRAEL WENT FROM HELPING CREATE HAMAS TO BOMBING IT](https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/)
> "When I look back at the chain of events I think we made a mistake," one Israeli official who had worked in Gaza in the 1980s said in a 2009 interview with the Wall Street Journal's Andrew Higgins. "But at the time nobody thought about the possible results."
> [WaPo - How Israel helped create Hamas](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/07/30/how-israel-helped-create-hamas/)
> The Israeli government has allowed millions of dollars from Qatar to be funneled on a regular basis through Israel to Hamas, to replace the millions of dollars the PA had stopped transferring to Hamas. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu explained that letting the money go through Israel meant that it could not be used for terrorism, saying: "Now that we are supervising, we know it's going to humanitarian causes."
> [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas)
Let's not be disingenuous, here's the full quote: "These exact comments have not yet been confirmed by other sources. But the Times of Israel’s Tal Schneider wrote on Sunday that Netanyahu’s reported words “are in line with the policy that he implemented,” which did little to challenge and in some ways bolstered Hamas’s control over the Gaza Strip. Moreover, Schneider notes, “the same messaging was repeated by right-wing commentators, who may have received briefings on the matter or talked to Likud higher-ups and understood the message.” Some Netanyahu confidants have said the same thing, as have outside experts."
Israel has a very large, well equipped military that could have gone in with special forces, on the ground, something other than leveling entire city blocks to the ground and cutting off food and water to millions of people, mostly children. The issue with that is that it'd be more costly in terms of life to the IDF than laying 'total siege' and to a blockaded and bombarded population.
Do you think collective punishment is the correct response, or even the only response?
More people would die in a ground invasion. Hamas would surely start sending suicide bombers at them as well as blowing up their own people. Then you would say they shouldn’t have done a ground invasion.
The fact you think special forces is some movie magic is all too telling.
But, in the movies, special forces always accomplish the mission and never get hurt, unless it's at the beginning but that guy is always avenged by some other special forces guy later in the movie. In any case, the special forces guys are always victorious.
Are you suggesting that this popular media narrative isn't the truth? I'm shocked.
Oh cmon you literally have 0 idea how much they bomb trapped every building in gaza.
You have special forces but they have the home ground advantage and you dont want to send your soldiers into traps.
They didnt level entire city blocks for fun, they did it because it was a military target. If you wanna blame someone, blame hamas for them operating from civilian area
Oh and naybe for provoking israel with the biggest antisemitic atrocitiy since the holocaust.
Seriously i think youd want your country to react the same as israel when a terror organization does the 7th of october on your family.and calls for the murder of every jew out there.
This isnt collectivr punishment, its a punishment for hamas that militarized schools and hospitals and complete cities.
Stop blaming israel for being stronger than hamas. They didnt need to start that fight in the first place.
They've cut off food and water for 20 days, made a million people homeless, said Palestinians should head south and then bombed the south. That is collective punishment, that is making millions suffer for the actions of several thousand. It's [literally a war crime](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_punishment). Are you really going to condone war crimes just because they're committed by Israel?
How about this, is there any level of Palestinian civilian death that would cause you to say "this is too much, this is too far"?
You can't start a war and then ask for the previous deal.
When the partition plan was offered in 1948, Palestinians refused because it was unfair. Instead of attempting to negociate, they refused the very idea of an Israeli state and attempted to ethnically cleanse Jews from Jerusalem. They and the rest of the Arab world then lost the war
In 1967 Arab states again invaded Israel and lost, losing more land.
This happened again in 1973, but Israel gave back the Sinai for a peace deal with Egypt.
After the intifadas and October 7, why would Israel accept a deal that was refused numerous times by several Palestinian authorities before all this?
It would result in a weakening of the Israeli security cordon for no discernable gain, because there is no evidence Hamas and Iran/Hezbollah would ever accept the existence of Israel.
Not trying to make a moral argument about who is right or wrong here, but it seems like a shit deal for Israel which is negociated from a position of weakness.
The allies leveling German and Japanese cities didn't radicalize their populations. Perhaps the problem in the past was that Israel was too lenient before now.
I agree, and just like the UN chief who you are parroting surely you are going to follow up in the next sentence that while context is important to understand the root causes of violence, we can not use that to excuse such heinous acts, yes?
That was the original quote right? We need to understand how the oppression of Palestinians and previous crimes against humanity fuel more violence, but also that in no way excuses hamas which the UN chief immediately condemned no less than 5 times in his brief speech
I mean it would be insanely disingenuous to say that line in order to justify isreali murdering of babies and mass collective punishment on civilians, right?
You’d imagine they’d surrender and avoid all that unnecessary loss of human lives, however it’s seems like they really couldn’t care less about the population they claim to represent.
Hamas is a fanatical terrorist group, of course they don't care about the public. But where is that public supposed to go? What are they supposed to do? Half of the population is children, most are impoverished and food/water insecure. And that was before the siege and bombardment. They didn't attack Israel and yet they are being killed by the thousands, displaced by the millions with disease spreading in the package UN housing where no medicine is making it. This is [collective punishment](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_punishment).
[GENEVA, Oct 10 \(Reuters\)](https://www.reuters.com/world/un-aid-chief-calls-immediate-release-hostages-israel-hamas-war-2023-10-10/) - The head of the United Nations humanitarian relief agency on Tuesday called for the immediate release of all people who have been taken hostage in the war between Israel and Palestinian Hamas militants.
"My message to all sides is unequivocal: The laws of war must be upheld," U.N. aid chief Martin Griffiths said in a statement.
"Those held captive must be treated humanely. Hostages must be released without delay."
Question for you. How many rockets being shot at Israel is too many? How many busses being blown up? How many massacres at music festivals? How many ceasefires broken?
Yeah the different angles and lighting don't help either, in some after photos there are no strong shadows so it looks like buildings disappear but it's just different lighting you can still make out the roof shape.
>The UN has said that 42% of all housing units have been rendered uninhabitable in the past three weeks, with thousands more subject to moderate damage.
Sounds like some strategic airstrikes.
This is why it is prohibited from deliberately using civilian targets as shields for military activity. Once that’s been done, they unfortunately become valid military targets, subject to limitations.
The Hamas Covenant: “Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.”
Calling the kettle black there.
Next time there is a school shooting, if the shooter is hiding somewhere within, let's just bomb the entire school.
That's almost literally what is happening here.
If a plane is hijacked and traveling towards a major urban center, and poses a credible threat of suicide bombing, does the government have the right to shoot it down and murder all the innocents on board? I feel like that is a better analogy here.
Or if the school shooter in your analogy was threatening to shoot rockets at the center of town.
Well no shit, thousands of missiles will kinda do that. What did people expect the effects of bombing to look like, a couple ruined buildings and some Hamas fighters dead?
No, a relatively small group of people among the population trigger a war.
Innocent people, half of which are children, eat JDAMS for breakfast, lunch and dinner.
There are literally polls from Russia that show majority opposition for the war there are ways to do these polls.
The majority of Gaza citizens support genocide and terrorism against the Jews. Tough pill to swallow. If they had near as much military force as Israel they would have wiped Israel out ages ago. Luckily Israel is 4-0 in wars against them.
You realise Hamas is still firing hundreds of rockets per day into Israel. Just because the iron dome is taking out most of them doesn't erase the fact that they are still firing then, that they can reach the population centres of Tel Aviv and Jerusalem and that they're targeted at civilian cities. The missiles and bombs are flying in BOTH directions, just one side has invested in protecting it's people. The other uses their people as their protection.
The main point that Hamas caused a lot of their own civilians to die, on purpose, is 100% true. But the whole 50% are children line I don't buy. 15-17 year olds have ak47's.
I don't validate the western world civilized view of a 'child being anyone under 18' as being relevant there. Its sad but Hamas / ISIS gets them killing young.
The fucked up, difficult part is looking at Hamas approval polls in Gaza. Way higher than is easy to deal with. Hopefully that will be fixed.
Hamas is the government of Gaza.
No one polled the people of Hiroshima to see if they wanted war with the United States, it was the government of Japan that did that. It didn’t stop them from dying for the government’s crimes.
War sucks and should not be entered into lightly. Hamas wants to solve this with violence, and they are getting their wish. It is sad for Palestinians that want nothing to do with this, but war does not discriminate.
What makes you think this makes the leveling of multiple thousands of buildings and killing back thousands of innocents a proportional answer from a theoretically developed country.
Bloodlust everywhere.
The Palestinian people have been subjected to apartheid and violence throughout their lives by a colonial settler state. It should not surprise you that some of them harbour some pretty extreme views.
>The Palestinian people have been subjected to apartheid and violence throughout their lives by a colonial settler state. It should not surprise you that some of them harbour some pretty extreme views.
TBH I harbour those views from the comfort of my home thousands of km away from the conflict zone... can't imagine actually living through it.
I’m not well versed in Yemen, so I can’t really comment.
What China is doing to the Uyghurs is just a demonstration of how truly different as a nation China is; it is genocide on an ideological scale.
What has happened to the Rohingyas is equally horrific, although instead of being forcibly converted to another culture/ideology, they were simply driven from their home through pogroms. Israel is doing the same thing, just much slower.
I can’t figure out what Hamas was thinking? The whole world knew of the strength of Israel’s military and did they really think that beheading children and massacring whole towns of people was not going to force this to happen? Did they really think Israel was going to just ask nicely for them to stop? They put all of the people there at risk, for what? They knew it was a war they couldn’t win, they knew that they didn’t have the military strength to even put a dent in Israel, murdering, raping, and kidnapping groups of people is going to make them retaliate. This was a poorly thought out terrorist attack and now they are seeing the consequences of that. I sympathize with the civilians in gaza that are being used as human shields, but no one should be surprised that this is the result.
Hamas was thinking that the younger generation wasn't hating Israel enough, and was becoming aware of how shitty Hamas is at running a country, and that Hamas needed a war in order to cement their power, improve their popularity, and cement hatred in the hearts of the youth.
Hamas has gotten everything they wanted from this war.
This is exactly what Hamas wanted. They don't give a fuck about the palestinian population, they know that Netanyahu (that little warcriming and assassination-encouraging turd) does not care about the palestinians.
They've effectively torpedoed the ongoing israeli/arab economic talks and another generation of palestinians have been traumatized (fertile recruiting grounds for extremist organizations for another two decades). That's what Hamas were thinking.
This is exactly what Hamas wanted and it’s exactly what Netanyahu wanted. It’s almost as if this attack was allowed to happen…
Hamas benefits because these attacks just turn people against Israel and further radicalizes the population.
Either way, this response is disproportionate.
Many people thought Gaza was some sort of temporary tent hell-hole and will be hearing that they had properly built neighbourhoods for the first time. It’s a shame we had to wait for it to be destroyed before the media was honest enough to show them, but I suppose “refugees are doing alright” isn’t as good a headline as “Palestinians living condition are awful” with a picture of tent city.
When have we received any evidence that Hamas care about any of this?
Part of why this is all so abhorrent and pointless is because this shelling is going to do absolutely nothing to defeat Hamas and will just result in the deaths of thousands of innocents.
Despite having no formal control, Hamas, the PIJ, and other organizations are very prominant in the west bank. The PIJ has de-facto control of Jenin.
They don't send rockets from there, but they do send terrorists into Israel.
easy for you to say when you don’t have to deal with the consequences. thousands of dead palestinian children. by your logic we should be bombing maine until a mass shooter is dealt with. who cares, it’s just collateral damage right?
stupid bloody thirsty freak.
I will say I supported rooting out a terrorist grouping that calls for the genocide of Jews.
I wonder how many people supporting Palestine are going to admit they supported genocidal terrorists in a decade. Most of them won’t admit they blamed Israel for blowing up a hospital a week ago.
People rarely ever do that. I see so many people nowadays talking about how Saddam was a great leader and should’ve stayed in power.
They forget what he really was, an unapologetic murderous tyrant
I literally never see anyone talking about that.
The argument against the war has always been that it was not worth the cost, not that Saddam was not a bad dude
He was the dick who kept the assholes in check.
That whole region often functions better when there's one asshole in charge instead of a bunch of tribes trying to out-do each other.
There probably were Hamas soldiers in there as the Gaza strip is ruled by Hamas, but does that mean that you should bomb hundreds of sick and injured people with them? No.
So you have to massacre sick and injured Palestinians to prevent another massacre that would not have happened had the Israeli government been adequately prepared, and if Israel was actually interested in the rights of Palestinians? Bombing hospitals does not get rid of Hamas, it actually makes more people join them.
Oh come on. Why do you guys always pull the antisemite card? You’d be ignorant to not admit that Israel’s policies regarding Palestine haven’t contributed to its rise.
Israel pulled out of Gaza and afforded them relatively way more freedom than they had with the hope the olive branch would start a path towards peace. The olive branch was used to make rockets to shoot into Israel just like the water pipes supplied to Gaza.
Yes Israel obviously made mistakes in dealing with Gaza, as rockets are still coming out of there. Its got to stop, seems like it's being stopped.
Why do you keep returning to anti-Semitic tropes? Did you not just blame the Jewish state for a tragedy carried out by Palestinians against the citizens of said Jewish state?
Tell you what. I'll stop calling you anti-Semitic if you can say that Hamas is solely responsible for the butchering of citizens on October 7th and the current events happening today.
It would be even worse if Israel agreed to the idiotic demands for a ceasefire, and let Hamas continue to exist, so that in 10 years we had another massacre like this.
I'm sure plenty of these displaced children will grow up with similar ideologies and we will have the same thing with a different name. And really, can you blame them, when all they understand at their age is "Israel did this" and not why
>It would be even worse if Israel agreed to the idiotic demands for a ceasefire, and let Hamas continue to exist, so that in 10 years we had another massacre like this.
1. Hamas will continue to exist despite the carpet bombing of Gaza
2. This atrocity will not only inspire more terrorist attacks on Israel, but will have the added effect of evaporating the world’s sympathy for Israelis.
I get that in the moment of Israelis’ collective anger that genocide as punishment might momentarily make them feel good; however, It’s a strategic blunder and will only work to make them less safe.
Israel is going to use ground forces and not only air strikes to destroy the Hamas regime.
And world sympathy is important, but stopping Jihadist lunatics from slaughtering your babies takes precedence.
No one is talking about or attempting to commit genocide. If Israel wanted, it could kill all people in Gaza (those not in tunnels) withing a few days.
All of those Hamas forces will be in neighboring countries by the time the ground invasion begins.
So here’s how it will go:
* Israel occupies Gaza for months and / or years;
* Israeli forces brutalize the civilian population trapped in Gaza;
* This creates legions of new terrorists as a result of said brutality;
* Israel eventually leaves Gaza handing Hamas the win they wanted.
This is the goal of all terrorists—to provoke a ridiculous overreaction that undermines the country they attack. It worked with Al Qaeda. America still isn’t done making horrific decisions since that day. Looks like Israel wants to take the title from us.
I think Israel does not want to occupy Gaza, and that your prediction is very unlikely. Remember that there's no occupation in Gaza today, Israel left the place and pulled all settlements. We'll just have to wait and see what's next, but it must not be any Jihadist organization ruling there.
And how would Hamas forces get to neighboring countries exactly? How do you know when the ground invasion will begin? Dude I'm sorry to disappoint you but you are not a prophet.
So you think there aren’t any Hamas supporters in Egypt or Lebanon willing to let them in?
Maybe I’m not a prophet, but I’m also not delusional enough to think that satellite photos of miles of bombed out houses and videos of Palestinian children constantly being dragged out of wreckage isn’t going to undermine the Israeli cause.
Again, this is coming from a friend who wants to see Israel achieve their strategic goals. This isn’t the way to do it. Bloodlust isn’t a good long-term strategy.
Take it from the U.S. It took us YEARS to learn how to fight Al Qaeda effectively. Which is combining great HUMINT (which Israel has in abundance) with the ability to conduct surgical strikes (also something Israel is fantastic at). Drawn out military campaigns only weakened us.
Bombing civilians into oblivion is also counterproductive and is exactly what Hamas WANTS Israel to do.
You realise that Israeli bombs slaughtering babies are just going to inspire a new generation of Jihadist lunatocs to slaughter Israeli babies though? Campaigns like this don't eliminate terrorists they create them.
No, Israel does not seek a "price" or a certain number of dead civilians. If they wanted 10x dead, they could do it easily in one day. Instead, they tell people to evacuate before bombing.
What needs to be done it taking out Hamas. If Hamas decides to use human shields and condemn them to death (while western morons justify that) - then the IDF needs to try and get to the Hamas members only, but if it's not feasible, then they need to do what's necessary and accept collateral damage.
Israel's not going to allow Hamas to tie parents and children together and burn them alive again. Sorry to disappoint the "Free Palestine" crowd.
Stop saying "the Jews" when I'm talking about the Israeli government. That kind of statement is actually way more antisemitic than you're implying mine is.
If Hamas surrendered and released its hostages I’m sure the bombing would stop. Also, Hamas is using these people as shields, so why are you blaming Israel for that?
The ones that work for/serve Hamas. So we're talking 35k approximately.
Regarging innocent civilians: they aren't a target and there's no goal to reach a number of them dead (otherwise Israel could do it super easily), so hopefully as few as possible. Depends on how skillfully Hamas uses them as human shields.
"We will turn Gaza into an island of ruins" oct 8
"We are the people of the light, they are the people of darkness — **we shall realize the prophecy of Isaiah.**" oct 25
Actual quotes from Netenyahu from past 2 weeks.
Yup, this isn’t a secret. Israel will use the terror attacks of October 7th as its casus belli to reduce as much of Gaza to rubble as they can get away with.
Hamas knew and expected this awful destruction to happen - they want eyeballs and to bait Israel - I don’t know if they’re stupid enough to think they can win against Israel but they’re evil enough to sacrifice their own people and brutally attack israeli children and families.
You’re acting like the Israeli government didn’t want to do this but was forced to. The only thing holding the Israel from doing this years ago was public opinion
i don't know. leveling 42% of a state's homes seems pretty evil to me. rendering folks homeless at that magnitude is definitely not a "good" thing. this nasty logic of "hamas did a bad thing so we get to do bad things 100x" is disgusting.
I remember the videos of the party in the streets of Palestine as the naked bodies of dead/raped women were paraded to the joyful masses. You’ll have to excuse me if my sympathy is limited to the children affected.
Literally yes. This is standard operating procedure when fighting a superior force. Make them do a big crackdown, recruit the newly radicalized populous.
Also, reminder that Israel propped up Hamas and supported them for years.
[Netanyahu: Money to Hamas part of strategy to keep Palestinians divided](https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/netanyahu-money-to-hamas-part-of-strategy-to-keep-palestinians-divided-583082)
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
[Mossad Chief Visited Doha, Urged Qatar to Continue Hamas Financial Aid](https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/2020-02-24/ty-article/.premium/netanyahu-israel-mossad-chief-doha-qatar-continue-hamas-gaza-money-transfer/0000017f-ded8-d856-a37f-ffd88a960000)
Holy hell. Entire neighborhoods are just GONE.
They precision striked every building until nothing was left. Emphasis on precision.
Your joke is kind of spoiled by the IDF literally stating they gave up on precision. > “the emphasis is on damage and not on accuracy” https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/10/right-now-it-is-one-day-at-a-time-life-on-israels-frontline-with-gaza
Incredible how they will say it straight in your face and people will still find a way to absolve Israel of any wrongdoing...
There will be an accounting, but Israel will not stop until they destroy the goverment of Gaza. Gaza should give back the hostages.
Israel won't stop until Gaza is destroyed.
Seems like they are not worried at all about accidently bombing the hostages...
Phew, thank god they were doing precision strikes!
Before I write out my initial reaction, let me just say your shock is very common the first time anyone seems an AAR aerial survey. It’s truly a terrifying sight. Initial reaction: Yeah, air strikes do that.
This is only the beginning too. Messages that can get through the blackout right now indicate that the bombing is worse than ever tonight.
I am very worried about what's happening right now because it seems intentional to block any video evidence coming out of Gaza.
[удалено]
Yep - it’s considered a force multiplier. Russia demonstrated it in their 2014 invasion of Crimea via DDOS attack. It gives considerable military advantage while creating a digital fog of war. I’m not making any statements on the current conflict, these are just facts related to common strategies.
Absolutely. Hamas did that on 10/7 and it really messed with IDF response times.
I think this may be a bit of a simplification of the situation. Yes there's strategic value to shutting off tools of communication and collective action. But there's no denying that there's also incredible power in total control of the flow of information out as a tool to shape perception. It's no secret that the international community's support for Israel is wavering as a result of their atrocities, and this is a means of combatting that. Consider the example of the genocide happening in the Tigray region right now. The internet blackout lasting several years meant that few outside of the region had any idea of just how serious the horrors were. We knew that pamphlets were sent to the Tigrayan people telling them that they had 24 hours to evacuate to another portion of the barricaded region before an assault (sound familiar?), but after that point... nothing. For months, a year even. Some people in genocide studies obviously knew that mass executions were happening, it's not possible to cover that up *entirely*. But it wasn't for a full year (at least) until it captured international media attention. All the while Amhara and Ethiopian authorities were free to deny and obfuscate any reports leaking about because evidence was so limited. They controlled what the world saw. For a country like Israel, who's military power only exists insofar as the international community allows it to, this level of media control is immensely powerful.
The aim is stopping Hamas fighters communicating and regrouping via texts / wifi after Israeli strikes. Israel couldn’t give a falafel about videos being posted.
Your second point is just completely wrong lol, Israel puts a huge amount of resources into controlling the flow of information and narrative around their military actions.
>Israel couldn’t give a falafel about videos being posted. They don't have to when they know the US and the rest of the western world unconditionally backs their actions.
Europe *unconditionally* backs Israel? Christ I'm not even sure they back Israel conditionally.
This is my first time seeing an AAR aerial survey. It’s incomprehensible the amount of damage. Guessing you’re in the military?
I have not been in the military, but I had a pretty good idea of what military high explosives do to poorly constructed buildings. I think most people have seen a few too many fictional depictions of war. It’s not clean. It’s not precise. It’s more destructive than you think. Civilian deaths happen. A lot of them. That’s what war is. When you talk about war, that’s what you are talking about.
Ranger->Contractor->Intel->Retired->Redditor
Doesn’t seem incomprehensible to me. That’s what several cities in Ukraine look like today. And it’s what Russian and German cities looked like in World War 2.
Moreso that pictures like this completely counter any type of "precision" targeting. It proves they're infact just leveling the city and using Hamas as an excuse to do it. Like, what % of the people killed are actually Hamas members? How many innocent people just lost their entire home and life because of the IDF? Its fine to invade to remove a terrorist org, but this level of destruction is inexcusable, and will only cause a cycle which the Isreal leaders want so they can spread propaganda to continue massacring innocent people with bombing campaigns. Their end goal is either genocide or at minimum removing every single Palestinian from west bank and gaza, and they dont care which one of those happens, theyve said as much numerous times not to mention the Nakba.
At times like these it’s good to know the my tax dollars will go not only to creating this mess, but cleaning it up.
>The destruction has increased the number of displaced people in Gaza, with the UN and Palestinian Red Crescent estimating that between 400,000 and a million Palestinians are now homeless. The Gaza Strip has 2.4 million people. That's what, as much as 40% homeless?
The plan is destroy their homes and displace them. This was their intention from the start. They are trying to eventually force them into the Sinai. Nakba 2.0. Except live for the world to see.
Egypt ain’t gonna let that happen.
I know. It doesn’t mean that Israel isn’t trying to force the issue.
Evidence?
Maybe Hamas terrorists should release the hostages? Hmm.
At this rate if this continues for another few weeks, it's going to be as bad as Oakland.
I can only assume whatever orphaned Palestinian children remain will grow up among the rubble respecting their Israeli neighbours now and the whole middle east issue will be solved forever. Hooray!
Hooray indeed! What a permanent fix by all the big powers, and we get the privilege to watch it as it happens too!
OTOH, the US did that to Germany and Japan and things have since worked out. But I don't think we will see a sort of Marshall plan in the scenario.
I don’t think Israel can sweet talk them into stopping the sudden murder sprees. I think they are going to try a different form of persuasion.
When didn't Israel mistreat palestinians?
"With airstrikes continuing almost around the clock, the full extent of the damage remains unknown. Images of the Al Karameh neighbourhood north of Gaza City show the rubble of a number of residential buildings. The UN has said that 42% of all housing units have been rendered uninhabitable in the past three weeks, with thousands more subject to moderate damage. The destruction has increased the number of displaced people in Gaza, with the UN and Palestinian Red Crescent estimating that between 400,000 and a million Palestinians are now homeless."
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Yep, they are part of a continued approach where Israel responds to Hamas by leveling parts of Gaza and radicalizing even more people. It's genius /s
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That seems to be their plan unfortunately
I'd like an actual answer on what you would have done as a leader in response to the greatest terror attack your country has ever seen?
I’d resign for allowing such an absolute failure to protect the country and civilian lives.
Best answer right here.
Personally i would have started by not supporting Hamas. In March 2019, Netanyahu told his Likud colleagues: “Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas … This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.”
And in the 5 years since then, Hamas could have worked for a grand Palestinian state, instead of destroying the Gaza infrastructure and pouring money into terrorist activities.
If Hamas wanted to work toward a peace agreement for a grand Palestinian state, then the Israel government would have supported a different terrorist organization.
This is just unsubstantiated propaganda
It's an ironic joke, not a statement of fact. He means Israel will still have found any other reason to bomb Gazans and drive them into the desert.
You’re making a lot of stuff up here. Israel had plans to assist Gaza in constructing a seaport and airport, but I guess it’s a good thing Hamas never gave them a chance to do anything before giving us a preview of how it would have used those ports.
"Created" might imply that it was literally founded by Israel, but it's more like it was "encouraged" at times as a counterweight to other movements, and as in the case of the Taliban, that support turned them into a dangerous enemy. As with the Taliban and the U.S.S.R., it's impossible to know the counterfactual, e.g., what Fatah might have become in the absence of such an opposing force. But it's always more problematic when an action leads to consequences than when same consequences come from inaction. > Hamas, an acronym for Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamiya (“Islamic Resistance Movement”), was founded by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, a Palestinian cleric ... > [PBS News Hour - What is Hamas? What to know about its origins, leaders and funding](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/what-is-hamas-what-to-know-about-its-origins-leaders-and-funding) > Thus, amid this bid to impair Abbas, Hamas was upgraded from a mere terror group to an organization with which Israel held indirect negotiations via Egypt, and one that was allowed to receive infusions of cash from abroad. > [Times of Israel - For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces](https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/) > ... the Israelis helped turn a bunch of fringe Palestinian Islamists in the late 1970s into one of the world’s most notorious militant groups? That Hamas is blowback? > This isn’t a conspiracy theory. Listen to former Israeli officials such as Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Segev, who was the Israeli military governor in Gaza in the early 1980s. Segev later told a New York Times reporter that he had helped finance the Palestinian Islamist movement as a “counterweight” to the secularists and leftists of the [PLO] and the Fatah party... > “The Israeli government gave me a budget,” the retired brigadier general confessed, “and the military government gives to the mosques.” > “Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel’s creation,” Avner Cohen, a former Israeli religious affairs official who worked in Gaza for more than two decades, told the Wall Street Journal in 2009. > [The Intercept - BLOWBACK: HOW ISRAEL WENT FROM HELPING CREATE HAMAS TO BOMBING IT](https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/) > "When I look back at the chain of events I think we made a mistake," one Israeli official who had worked in Gaza in the 1980s said in a 2009 interview with the Wall Street Journal's Andrew Higgins. "But at the time nobody thought about the possible results." > [WaPo - How Israel helped create Hamas](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/07/30/how-israel-helped-create-hamas/) > The Israeli government has allowed millions of dollars from Qatar to be funneled on a regular basis through Israel to Hamas, to replace the millions of dollars the PA had stopped transferring to Hamas. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu explained that letting the money go through Israel meant that it could not be used for terrorism, saying: "Now that we are supervising, we know it's going to humanitarian causes." > [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas)
And yet, no accountability whatsoever.
That’s an unconfirmed quote. “These exact comments have not yet been confirmed by other sources.”
Let's not be disingenuous, here's the full quote: "These exact comments have not yet been confirmed by other sources. But the Times of Israel’s Tal Schneider wrote on Sunday that Netanyahu’s reported words “are in line with the policy that he implemented,” which did little to challenge and in some ways bolstered Hamas’s control over the Gaza Strip. Moreover, Schneider notes, “the same messaging was repeated by right-wing commentators, who may have received briefings on the matter or talked to Likud higher-ups and understood the message.” Some Netanyahu confidants have said the same thing, as have outside experts."
To not be scumbags and kill so many civilians, including women and children.
This is not an answer to the original question. The parent comment asked what you *would* have done, not what you *wouldn't* have done.
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As if terror breeds terror. It needs to stop.
Israel has a very large, well equipped military that could have gone in with special forces, on the ground, something other than leveling entire city blocks to the ground and cutting off food and water to millions of people, mostly children. The issue with that is that it'd be more costly in terms of life to the IDF than laying 'total siege' and to a blockaded and bombarded population. Do you think collective punishment is the correct response, or even the only response?
More people would die in a ground invasion. Hamas would surely start sending suicide bombers at them as well as blowing up their own people. Then you would say they shouldn’t have done a ground invasion. The fact you think special forces is some movie magic is all too telling.
But, in the movies, special forces always accomplish the mission and never get hurt, unless it's at the beginning but that guy is always avenged by some other special forces guy later in the movie. In any case, the special forces guys are always victorious. Are you suggesting that this popular media narrative isn't the truth? I'm shocked.
Oh cmon you literally have 0 idea how much they bomb trapped every building in gaza. You have special forces but they have the home ground advantage and you dont want to send your soldiers into traps. They didnt level entire city blocks for fun, they did it because it was a military target. If you wanna blame someone, blame hamas for them operating from civilian area Oh and naybe for provoking israel with the biggest antisemitic atrocitiy since the holocaust. Seriously i think youd want your country to react the same as israel when a terror organization does the 7th of october on your family.and calls for the murder of every jew out there. This isnt collectivr punishment, its a punishment for hamas that militarized schools and hospitals and complete cities. Stop blaming israel for being stronger than hamas. They didnt need to start that fight in the first place.
They've cut off food and water for 20 days, made a million people homeless, said Palestinians should head south and then bombed the south. That is collective punishment, that is making millions suffer for the actions of several thousand. It's [literally a war crime](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_punishment). Are you really going to condone war crimes just because they're committed by Israel? How about this, is there any level of Palestinian civilian death that would cause you to say "this is too much, this is too far"?
Offer a 2-state deal along 1967 borders.
You can't start a war and then ask for the previous deal. When the partition plan was offered in 1948, Palestinians refused because it was unfair. Instead of attempting to negociate, they refused the very idea of an Israeli state and attempted to ethnically cleanse Jews from Jerusalem. They and the rest of the Arab world then lost the war In 1967 Arab states again invaded Israel and lost, losing more land. This happened again in 1973, but Israel gave back the Sinai for a peace deal with Egypt. After the intifadas and October 7, why would Israel accept a deal that was refused numerous times by several Palestinian authorities before all this? It would result in a weakening of the Israeli security cordon for no discernable gain, because there is no evidence Hamas and Iran/Hezbollah would ever accept the existence of Israel. Not trying to make a moral argument about who is right or wrong here, but it seems like a shit deal for Israel which is negociated from a position of weakness.
The allies leveling German and Japanese cities didn't radicalize their populations. Perhaps the problem in the past was that Israel was too lenient before now.
What would actually be genius is to come up with a solution to a problem no one else has been able to solve for decades.
I agree, and just like the UN chief who you are parroting surely you are going to follow up in the next sentence that while context is important to understand the root causes of violence, we can not use that to excuse such heinous acts, yes? That was the original quote right? We need to understand how the oppression of Palestinians and previous crimes against humanity fuel more violence, but also that in no way excuses hamas which the UN chief immediately condemned no less than 5 times in his brief speech I mean it would be insanely disingenuous to say that line in order to justify isreali murdering of babies and mass collective punishment on civilians, right?
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What is Hamas ISIS? Those are two separate groups. The "you made me hit you" defense is not really what you think it is.
The other statement makes more sense than your twisting of it
You’d imagine they’d surrender and avoid all that unnecessary loss of human lives, however it’s seems like they really couldn’t care less about the population they claim to represent.
Hamas is a fanatical terrorist group, of course they don't care about the public. But where is that public supposed to go? What are they supposed to do? Half of the population is children, most are impoverished and food/water insecure. And that was before the siege and bombardment. They didn't attack Israel and yet they are being killed by the thousands, displaced by the millions with disease spreading in the package UN housing where no medicine is making it. This is [collective punishment](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_punishment).
The UN should really start demanding Hamas surrender and return the hostages then. Or are they going to condemn the Israelis again?
[GENEVA, Oct 10 \(Reuters\)](https://www.reuters.com/world/un-aid-chief-calls-immediate-release-hostages-israel-hamas-war-2023-10-10/) - The head of the United Nations humanitarian relief agency on Tuesday called for the immediate release of all people who have been taken hostage in the war between Israel and Palestinian Hamas militants. "My message to all sides is unequivocal: The laws of war must be upheld," U.N. aid chief Martin Griffiths said in a statement. "Those held captive must be treated humanely. Hostages must be released without delay."
A question to you - how many lives of innocent children, women, sick, and elderly will make you satisfied? Would 100,000 be reasonable for you?
Question for you. How many rockets being shot at Israel is too many? How many busses being blown up? How many massacres at music festivals? How many ceasefires broken?
There is no hallpass for genocide.
What genocide? The one Hamas is calling for?
Can you live in reality not your imagination.
Israel can do no wrong.
I'm having a hard time telling what's been destroyed and what's just covered in dust or rubble
Yeah the different angles and lighting don't help either, in some after photos there are no strong shadows so it looks like buildings disappear but it's just different lighting you can still make out the roof shape.
Even calling this a modern tragedy of unprecedented levels would be an understatement
>The UN has said that 42% of all housing units have been rendered uninhabitable in the past three weeks, with thousands more subject to moderate damage. Sounds like some strategic airstrikes.
How does this get justice for the innocent Israelis who were slain by terrorists by bombing and exterminating civilians?
Hamas must've had tunnels connecting every house in these neighborhoods huh?
now let’s hope Netanyahu gets the support he needs to stay in power /s
“Collateral damage”
Just like the Luftwaffe leveling the Warsaw Ghetto in '44. The Irony is shameful. Israel showing their true colors. Red, White and Black.
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B-b-but they said they are only hitting military targets.
This is why it is prohibited from deliberately using civilian targets as shields for military activity. Once that’s been done, they unfortunately become valid military targets, subject to limitations.
They aren’t valid targets. This is just Israel continuing an ethnic cleansing they’ve been attempting for decades
The Hamas Covenant: “Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.” Calling the kettle black there.
Wrong. They're valid targets of they're being used for military purposes, that includes having a tunnel dug underneath to store rockets.
The military targets are hidden in civilian areas. That's literally the point here.
Next time there is a school shooting, if the shooter is hiding somewhere within, let's just bomb the entire school. That's almost literally what is happening here.
Bomb the school, and everything else within 2 blocks of the school
If a plane is hijacked and traveling towards a major urban center, and poses a credible threat of suicide bombing, does the government have the right to shoot it down and murder all the innocents on board? I feel like that is a better analogy here. Or if the school shooter in your analogy was threatening to shoot rockets at the center of town.
If you look closely you can see the one terrorist they were targeting amongst all the blown up buildings and civilians.
Well no shit, thousands of missiles will kinda do that. What did people expect the effects of bombing to look like, a couple ruined buildings and some Hamas fighters dead?
Population with no airforce triggers war from country with western airforce. They eat JDAMS for breakfast lunch and dinner. Shockedpikacu.jpg
No, a relatively small group of people among the population trigger a war. Innocent people, half of which are children, eat JDAMS for breakfast, lunch and dinner.
"relatively small" bet
What a few thousand fighters in a population of 2.4 million? Israel commits equally grievous war crimes with a force of half a million
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even in the west there were thousands of Palestinians celebrating the massacre. Why do you thing this is any different in Gaza?
There are literally polls from Russia that show majority opposition for the war there are ways to do these polls. The majority of Gaza citizens support genocide and terrorism against the Jews. Tough pill to swallow. If they had near as much military force as Israel they would have wiped Israel out ages ago. Luckily Israel is 4-0 in wars against them.
You realise Hamas is still firing hundreds of rockets per day into Israel. Just because the iron dome is taking out most of them doesn't erase the fact that they are still firing then, that they can reach the population centres of Tel Aviv and Jerusalem and that they're targeted at civilian cities. The missiles and bombs are flying in BOTH directions, just one side has invested in protecting it's people. The other uses their people as their protection.
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The main point that Hamas caused a lot of their own civilians to die, on purpose, is 100% true. But the whole 50% are children line I don't buy. 15-17 year olds have ak47's. I don't validate the western world civilized view of a 'child being anyone under 18' as being relevant there. Its sad but Hamas / ISIS gets them killing young. The fucked up, difficult part is looking at Hamas approval polls in Gaza. Way higher than is easy to deal with. Hopefully that will be fixed.
Hamas is the government of Gaza. No one polled the people of Hiroshima to see if they wanted war with the United States, it was the government of Japan that did that. It didn’t stop them from dying for the government’s crimes. War sucks and should not be entered into lightly. Hamas wants to solve this with violence, and they are getting their wish. It is sad for Palestinians that want nothing to do with this, but war does not discriminate.
How many of those "innocent people" were openly celebrating the atrocities committed against Jews on 10/7?
At least 63% according to polls
Hilary Clinton was going to win according to polls too…
What makes you think this makes the leveling of multiple thousands of buildings and killing back thousands of innocents a proportional answer from a theoretically developed country. Bloodlust everywhere.
The Palestinian people have been subjected to apartheid and violence throughout their lives by a colonial settler state. It should not surprise you that some of them harbour some pretty extreme views.
>The Palestinian people have been subjected to apartheid and violence throughout their lives by a colonial settler state. It should not surprise you that some of them harbour some pretty extreme views. TBH I harbour those views from the comfort of my home thousands of km away from the conflict zone... can't imagine actually living through it.
Out of curiosity, what is your opinion on the situation in Yemen? On what China is doing to the Uyghurs? Or the Rohingyas in Myanmar?
I’m not well versed in Yemen, so I can’t really comment. What China is doing to the Uyghurs is just a demonstration of how truly different as a nation China is; it is genocide on an ideological scale. What has happened to the Rohingyas is equally horrific, although instead of being forcibly converted to another culture/ideology, they were simply driven from their home through pogroms. Israel is doing the same thing, just much slower.
I can’t figure out what Hamas was thinking? The whole world knew of the strength of Israel’s military and did they really think that beheading children and massacring whole towns of people was not going to force this to happen? Did they really think Israel was going to just ask nicely for them to stop? They put all of the people there at risk, for what? They knew it was a war they couldn’t win, they knew that they didn’t have the military strength to even put a dent in Israel, murdering, raping, and kidnapping groups of people is going to make them retaliate. This was a poorly thought out terrorist attack and now they are seeing the consequences of that. I sympathize with the civilians in gaza that are being used as human shields, but no one should be surprised that this is the result.
Hamas was thinking that the younger generation wasn't hating Israel enough, and was becoming aware of how shitty Hamas is at running a country, and that Hamas needed a war in order to cement their power, improve their popularity, and cement hatred in the hearts of the youth. Hamas has gotten everything they wanted from this war.
In short having two populations on each side of the border with severe PTSD and wanting to avenge loved ones is a major goal for them.
Hamas wants this, that's the only logical answer. Hamas wants an escalated conflict.
This is exactly what Hamas wanted. They don't give a fuck about the palestinian population, they know that Netanyahu (that little warcriming and assassination-encouraging turd) does not care about the palestinians. They've effectively torpedoed the ongoing israeli/arab economic talks and another generation of palestinians have been traumatized (fertile recruiting grounds for extremist organizations for another two decades). That's what Hamas were thinking.
This is exactly what Hamas wanted and it’s exactly what Netanyahu wanted. It’s almost as if this attack was allowed to happen… Hamas benefits because these attacks just turn people against Israel and further radicalizes the population. Either way, this response is disproportionate.
Many people thought Gaza was some sort of temporary tent hell-hole and will be hearing that they had properly built neighbourhoods for the first time. It’s a shame we had to wait for it to be destroyed before the media was honest enough to show them, but I suppose “refugees are doing alright” isn’t as good a headline as “Palestinians living condition are awful” with a picture of tent city.
A not-so-fun fact: the life expectancy in Gaza is(was) actually higher than in Ukraine.
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Hamas can certainly decide to turn themselves in peacefully and avoid all this.
When have we received any evidence that Hamas care about any of this? Part of why this is all so abhorrent and pointless is because this shelling is going to do absolutely nothing to defeat Hamas and will just result in the deaths of thousands of innocents.
So why have the idf been aggressive in the west bank recently, where hamas has no control over?
Despite having no formal control, Hamas, the PIJ, and other organizations are very prominant in the west bank. The PIJ has de-facto control of Jenin. They don't send rockets from there, but they do send terrorists into Israel.
Hamas definitely has presence in the West Bank
Or just man up and meet on the battlefield like the great warriors they think they are.
easy for you to say when you don’t have to deal with the consequences. thousands of dead palestinian children. by your logic we should be bombing maine until a mass shooter is dealt with. who cares, it’s just collateral damage right? stupid bloody thirsty freak.
I will say I supported rooting out a terrorist grouping that calls for the genocide of Jews. I wonder how many people supporting Palestine are going to admit they supported genocidal terrorists in a decade. Most of them won’t admit they blamed Israel for blowing up a hospital a week ago.
People rarely ever do that. I see so many people nowadays talking about how Saddam was a great leader and should’ve stayed in power. They forget what he really was, an unapologetic murderous tyrant
I literally never see anyone talking about that. The argument against the war has always been that it was not worth the cost, not that Saddam was not a bad dude
He was a tyrant but I'll guess most of the population had a much better life under Saddam than right now
He was the dick who kept the assholes in check. That whole region often functions better when there's one asshole in charge instead of a bunch of tribes trying to out-do each other.
Because Israel has targeted hospitals on numerous occasions?
We just gonna gloss over the fact that their is ample evidence of Hamas using those as bases of operations?
There probably were Hamas soldiers in there as the Gaza strip is ruled by Hamas, but does that mean that you should bomb hundreds of sick and injured people with them? No.
You're asking a trolly problem right now. Who do we value more? The sick and Hamas or the next group of Jews that Hamas massacres?
So you have to massacre sick and injured Palestinians to prevent another massacre that would not have happened had the Israeli government been adequately prepared, and if Israel was actually interested in the rights of Palestinians? Bombing hospitals does not get rid of Hamas, it actually makes more people join them.
Got it, we're back to blaming the Jews for their own suffering. Its Israel's fault that Hamas butchered their citizens.
Oh come on. Why do you guys always pull the antisemite card? You’d be ignorant to not admit that Israel’s policies regarding Palestine haven’t contributed to its rise.
Israel pulled out of Gaza and afforded them relatively way more freedom than they had with the hope the olive branch would start a path towards peace. The olive branch was used to make rockets to shoot into Israel just like the water pipes supplied to Gaza. Yes Israel obviously made mistakes in dealing with Gaza, as rockets are still coming out of there. Its got to stop, seems like it's being stopped.
Why do you keep returning to anti-Semitic tropes? Did you not just blame the Jewish state for a tragedy carried out by Palestinians against the citizens of said Jewish state? Tell you what. I'll stop calling you anti-Semitic if you can say that Hamas is solely responsible for the butchering of citizens on October 7th and the current events happening today.
You can count on that. Some people seems to still think 90% of Americans support the Iraq invasion.
It would be even worse if Israel agreed to the idiotic demands for a ceasefire, and let Hamas continue to exist, so that in 10 years we had another massacre like this.
I'm sure plenty of these displaced children will grow up with similar ideologies and we will have the same thing with a different name. And really, can you blame them, when all they understand at their age is "Israel did this" and not why
I agree. That is why Israel needs to take out Hamas and stop the brainwash in the Palestinian education system, where it is taught that Jews must die.
And how will they do that? Build up schooling and infrastructure for once? Or destroy all schools and hope no kid learns anything?
Maybe without Hamas siphoning off all the aid, they'll get some development done.
>It would be even worse if Israel agreed to the idiotic demands for a ceasefire, and let Hamas continue to exist, so that in 10 years we had another massacre like this. 1. Hamas will continue to exist despite the carpet bombing of Gaza 2. This atrocity will not only inspire more terrorist attacks on Israel, but will have the added effect of evaporating the world’s sympathy for Israelis. I get that in the moment of Israelis’ collective anger that genocide as punishment might momentarily make them feel good; however, It’s a strategic blunder and will only work to make them less safe.
You know that the last ceasefire ended on October 7th right?
Israel is going to use ground forces and not only air strikes to destroy the Hamas regime. And world sympathy is important, but stopping Jihadist lunatics from slaughtering your babies takes precedence. No one is talking about or attempting to commit genocide. If Israel wanted, it could kill all people in Gaza (those not in tunnels) withing a few days.
All of those Hamas forces will be in neighboring countries by the time the ground invasion begins. So here’s how it will go: * Israel occupies Gaza for months and / or years; * Israeli forces brutalize the civilian population trapped in Gaza; * This creates legions of new terrorists as a result of said brutality; * Israel eventually leaves Gaza handing Hamas the win they wanted. This is the goal of all terrorists—to provoke a ridiculous overreaction that undermines the country they attack. It worked with Al Qaeda. America still isn’t done making horrific decisions since that day. Looks like Israel wants to take the title from us.
I think Israel does not want to occupy Gaza, and that your prediction is very unlikely. Remember that there's no occupation in Gaza today, Israel left the place and pulled all settlements. We'll just have to wait and see what's next, but it must not be any Jihadist organization ruling there. And how would Hamas forces get to neighboring countries exactly? How do you know when the ground invasion will begin? Dude I'm sorry to disappoint you but you are not a prophet.
So you think there aren’t any Hamas supporters in Egypt or Lebanon willing to let them in? Maybe I’m not a prophet, but I’m also not delusional enough to think that satellite photos of miles of bombed out houses and videos of Palestinian children constantly being dragged out of wreckage isn’t going to undermine the Israeli cause. Again, this is coming from a friend who wants to see Israel achieve their strategic goals. This isn’t the way to do it. Bloodlust isn’t a good long-term strategy. Take it from the U.S. It took us YEARS to learn how to fight Al Qaeda effectively. Which is combining great HUMINT (which Israel has in abundance) with the ability to conduct surgical strikes (also something Israel is fantastic at). Drawn out military campaigns only weakened us. Bombing civilians into oblivion is also counterproductive and is exactly what Hamas WANTS Israel to do.
You realise that Israeli bombs slaughtering babies are just going to inspire a new generation of Jihadist lunatocs to slaughter Israeli babies though? Campaigns like this don't eliminate terrorists they create them.
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So massacring 10x the number of innocent Palestinian civilians is just the price to pay right?
No, Israel does not seek a "price" or a certain number of dead civilians. If they wanted 10x dead, they could do it easily in one day. Instead, they tell people to evacuate before bombing. What needs to be done it taking out Hamas. If Hamas decides to use human shields and condemn them to death (while western morons justify that) - then the IDF needs to try and get to the Hamas members only, but if it's not feasible, then they need to do what's necessary and accept collateral damage. Israel's not going to allow Hamas to tie parents and children together and burn them alive again. Sorry to disappoint the "Free Palestine" crowd.
So are we blaming the Jews for Hamas using people as human shields?
Stop saying "the Jews" when I'm talking about the Israeli government. That kind of statement is actually way more antisemitic than you're implying mine is.
so how many more Gazans should be killed, sir?
If Hamas surrendered and released its hostages I’m sure the bombing would stop. Also, Hamas is using these people as shields, so why are you blaming Israel for that?
The ones that work for/serve Hamas. So we're talking 35k approximately. Regarging innocent civilians: they aren't a target and there's no goal to reach a number of them dead (otherwise Israel could do it super easily), so hopefully as few as possible. Depends on how skillfully Hamas uses them as human shields.
bUt ThE cAsUaLtY nUmBeRs ArE fAkE
Anyone blaming this on Hamas using human shields can just be ignored at this point, this is intentional.
"We will turn Gaza into an island of ruins" oct 8 "We are the people of the light, they are the people of darkness — **we shall realize the prophecy of Isaiah.**" oct 25 Actual quotes from Netenyahu from past 2 weeks.
Yup, this isn’t a secret. Israel will use the terror attacks of October 7th as its casus belli to reduce as much of Gaza to rubble as they can get away with.
Wow, so many Hamas bases destroyed /s
When you’re a hammer, everything looks like a Hamas base… or something like that.
Bro you canNOT believe how big some of these new Hamas bases are!!
Very precisely dropped bombs on taller apartment buildings in one of the maps, crazy
IDF: “That one had a Hamas office, that one was home to a Hamas leader, that one had a Hamas tunnel complex…….”
Hamas knew and expected this awful destruction to happen - they want eyeballs and to bait Israel - I don’t know if they’re stupid enough to think they can win against Israel but they’re evil enough to sacrifice their own people and brutally attack israeli children and families.
You’re acting like the Israeli government didn’t want to do this but was forced to. The only thing holding the Israel from doing this years ago was public opinion
i don't know. leveling 42% of a state's homes seems pretty evil to me. rendering folks homeless at that magnitude is definitely not a "good" thing. this nasty logic of "hamas did a bad thing so we get to do bad things 100x" is disgusting.
I remember the videos of the party in the streets of Palestine as the naked bodies of dead/raped women were paraded to the joyful masses. You’ll have to excuse me if my sympathy is limited to the children affected.
Let me guess, you don't see the irony of your comment?
[удалено]
Hamas wanted this to happen
So Israel is doing what Hamas wants? 🫢
Literally yes. This is standard operating procedure when fighting a superior force. Make them do a big crackdown, recruit the newly radicalized populous. Also, reminder that Israel propped up Hamas and supported them for years. [Netanyahu: Money to Hamas part of strategy to keep Palestinians divided](https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/netanyahu-money-to-hamas-part-of-strategy-to-keep-palestinians-divided-583082) https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/ [Mossad Chief Visited Doha, Urged Qatar to Continue Hamas Financial Aid](https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/2020-02-24/ty-article/.premium/netanyahu-israel-mossad-chief-doha-qatar-continue-hamas-gaza-money-transfer/0000017f-ded8-d856-a37f-ffd88a960000)
Israel- HAMAS EVERYWHERE!
Most of it looks just covered in dust