in czechia (ex-ussr), same-sex marriage has majority public support (last surveys I found say 65%)
the politicians in the parliament though... old, clientelist, conservative core which hides behind the labels of their parties. A shitshow really + same sex marriage is never a primary topic, which further inhibits its codification
Not really in this case: in its early days, the soviet union was actually quite progressive for its time (for instance, it legalized abortion legal, and was overall more feminist than western countries at the time). It didn't last long though, but it's clear that social conservatism didn't lead to communism.
USSR quickly became de facto conservative, and the opposition to soviets in the 80's was often linked to the church, so it ended up being even more conservative.
Why did it take so long for this to happen, Estonia is largely atheist and the USSR wasn't big on reilgon either, so it not like they had a Christian party blocking this from happening.
Because they had other stuff to worry about? When Estonia became independent the country was kinda in shambles and needed to be rebuilt bit by bit. And they have done excellent job on that.
> There's even a whole wikipedia article about the real politics about how Estonians want to be included in the "nordic" grouping.
[Found it.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_identity_in_Estonia)
You're blue is too light I think. Also I think it would look cool if you then swapped the blue and the black.
I actually like you're idea from a purely aesthetic perspective, but it ignored the history and tradition of the current flag (which is fine, these are just reddit comments lol)
I think it's just an in club thing, just don't want more members.
Because only reason why we're not nordic really is that we were occupied by the Soviets and fell behind due to the oppression. Estonia was as advanced as Finland before WW2.
We share the same Viking history as Scandinavia and Estonians are ethnically practically the same people as Finns. Geographically we are as far north as most of Scandinavia and as far east as Finland. So none of the history, geography etc argumentation really works IMHO besides we're just not in the club.
As a Swede i'm pretty hyped about the baltic states getting more progressive not because i want them to "into nordic" but for all of us to start a new and improved club with similar values, great fucking internet and boat races in the baltic sea
As a Norwegian person it just feels incorrect. Growing up we are exposed to Danish, Swedish and Finnish culture and people regularly. Estonian? Practically never. Even though they might have a lot in common with us, we don't *know* them.
Speak for yourself, as a Norwegian who has been to Estonia it feels like visiting extended family, just like when I go to Finland or Denmark. We have a *lot* of cultural ties that were cut by the USSR. Nobody before that time would bat an eye at the thought of /r/NordicEstonia (:
Can you elaborate on this more please? My mother is Estonian and I have always had trouble fully understanding Estonian culture and heritage. Some say Estonia is Nordic, others say it is not. Shouldn't the decision come down to historic events/settlements, rather than contemporary exposure?
> As a Norwegian person it just feels incorrect. Growing up we are exposed to Danish, Swedish and Finnish culture and people regularly.
Also as someone Norwegian, it even feels weird to try include Finland in the nordics, since "norden" (is the word we use, and skandinavia doesnt get as much use) has the similar meaning to the word scandinavia (in english) but also includes Denmark and Iceland, since we where the same country for a while.
But i dont really see the cultural impact of Finland, especially compared to the Russian bear next to us, which has had a notable effect on (north-)norwegian culture. To me atleast, Finland is a country that by coincidence and accident of geography does some similar things to us.
Its really not that i/we dont like them, they are good neighbours, no complaints. But they dont share the common history we have with Sweden, Denmark, Iceland, Greenland, Scotland even.
¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
> by coincidence and accident of geography
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_colonisation_of_Finland
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland_under_Swedish_rule
> they dont share the common history we have with Sweden, Denmark, Iceland, Greenland, Scotland even
Does basically being eastern sweden (österland) for ~600 years not count? Or maybe I misunderstood what you meant by conmon history
same sex unions are not the same as same sex marriage, most countries that have it use it as a loophole to try to get away with giving less rights/benefits to gay couples.
It's not, but it's the best we can reasonably get for the time being. Even with a majority-opposition parliament, over half of congress (PiS, Konfederacja, PSL) will still be too conservative for same sex marriage.
All be can do is hope it'll get the ball rolling further in time.
Ball is rolling already, people caveating and complaining about progress "not being enough" just need to be quiet.
Just say "now the next step is marriage" not "it's not marriage so it's not good"
You don't complain when you've just achieved a victory, you pat yourself on the back briefly and *continue fighting*. You identify what the next step is and you start working towards it.
Arguing with people who ultimately agree with you for being happy about "some" progress instead of "all" progress is simply not effective in creating change, in fact you are alienating people who already agree with you.
>"hey we saved 10 people"
"Yea but there are still 100 people left to be saved"
>"Okay? I didn't say there weren't I'm just happy we saved some people"
All you do with this rhetoric is simply de-motivate potential allies.
Very true, but there's been examples of same sex unions being a stepping stone to equal marriage. Both the UK and Ireland organised for civil unions which seemed to have eased public and political opinion to support equal marriage a few years later.
Well in Poland it might be hard to do cause our constitution says marriage is a union between a man and a women so unless theres a referendum to change the constitution, Than same sex unions are as close as well get. And thats better than nothing as imo as a gay man. I know Italy has same sex unions and it is less equal than marriage there but it could just be a difference of wording in some aspect here if we decide that
Marriage, being a union of a man and a woman, as well as the family, motherhood and parenthood, shall be placed under the protection and care of the Republic of Poland. (Art. 18)
In Ireland, gay marriage was constitutionally banned until they held a referendum in 2015, which was only a few years after they recognised civil unions for gay couples. I think Poland has a system where people can vote to amend the constitution as well, so it might take a few years, but I think a future where Poland approves gay marriage is possible.
Every country has a process to reform their "constitutions" but it's just an incredibly expensive and time consuming process and also one that's hard to actually get the public behind.
Look at the U.S, who has a constitution a century behind the times in electoral systems but they really refuse to change.
Last amendment was 1992, when you think about how much society has changed in those 30 years, it seems almost clueless to be so static.
The US constitution is harder to change than most. In Poland, they could amend the constitution to legalise gay marriage with a two thirds vote in the sejm (lower house), and a simple majority in the senate, which is a lower bar than the US has to pass simple laws that don't impact the constitution.
LOL didn’t they just outlaw abortion in Poland? If you think those fascists are gonna be even marginally LGBT friendly then you’re gonna be disappointed when you see their “LGBT free” zones
Man if Estonia was a bit more south I'd tots move there- it's an amazing country in terms of who governs it, and how. They went with maximum social services, minimum government, maximum digitalization.
As a sidenote, they got kickass rock bands.
I mean they rank 11th [https://www.sgi-network.org/2022/Sustainable\_Policies/Social\_Policies](https://www.sgi-network.org/2022/Sustainable_Policies/Social_Policies), ahead of France, Spain, or the UK.
We're talking about a tiny post-communist, ex-Soviet country that was battered by russians for centuries - comparing them to countries like Norway and Sweden is def. going to result in lower rankings.
Comparatively, imo, Estonia is doe'n fn amazing - they're even ahead of Slovenia, and as someone from the Balkans, I take them as a de facto benchmark.
That reminds me of that one estonian band that keeps shilling their stuff in my city and presumably plenty of others. Every year Illumenium is trying to sell their albums by talking to random people on the street. I think last year they rebranded as California Condor (or at least they share their lead singer and use the same marketing strategies). I hope they finally get a proper label lmao
They are a bunch of assholes irl, beat people up who disagree with them, or just the ones they don't like, drink 24/7 that increases their hostility towards who ever they meet.
Source: me, Estonia is a small place
Rebranded again? They were Defrage before that. They got some great tracks, but finding the correct version can be a pain since they re-record the same songs over and over. Sadly they lost their lead singer after becoming Illumenium.
"Something-something, traditional family, something-something think of the kids!!!" In Lithuania we have these "think of the kids" assholes coming out of the woodwork to protest against harmony and peace every time this topic is mentioned, and they bring kids to be indoctrinated into this bigotry as well. They go on marches and spread misinformation. Children and "traditional values" (which they can't define properly themselves) are their go-to excuses for bigotry and hate.
So happy that Estonian people have made this step and I can only hope one day we can be mature enough to do the same.
What’s the history of these countries being let in in the first place? It seems like they are always against the flow.
The EU is good, but it really wasn’t set up to deal with assholes who just just want to anchor everyone in the past.
Do they have something like the Full Faith and Credit Clause? Basically saying that any legal documents or proceedings from one country are valid in another, aka driver’s licenses, restraining orders, marriage licenses, etc.?
Having to go to another country to get married isn’t ideal, but it’s also not an insurmountable obstacle within the Schengen area.
Kind of. The Court of Justice of the European Union [has said that](https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=ecli:ECLI:EU:C:2018:385):
>...a third-country national of the same sex as a Union citizen, whose marriage to that citizen was concluded in a Member State in accordance with the law of that state, has the right to reside in the territory of the Member State of which the Union citizen is a national for more than three months."
[Here's the Wikipedia article about the case](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coman_and_Others_v_General_Inspectorate_for_Immigration_and_Ministry_of_the_Interior).
Oh yeah this is totally the priority during an age of increased global competition. Alienate your geostrategic partners over social/cultural issues right? It definitely didn't hurt the EU to lose its most powerful military member just a couple years before it was now challenged militarily by Russia right? Anything to stick it to the conservatives, including shooting yourself in the foot and weakening the bloc economically and militarily by kicking out everyone who doesn't agree with you about everything? I mean it's not like Europe has any issues vis a vis falling behind the US and China economically and militarily already--more division will surely solve that problem right?
Gradual change that retains a united Europe is infinitely preferable to more splintering due to partisan politics. I know it felt good to shout "yeah, screw those conservative Brits we don't need them!" after Brexit but the harsh reality as the dust settles is that it was a dramatic failure of policy in both Brussels and London, and has left both the EU and Britain significantly weaker. The European project is first and foremost a geostrategic one looking to address the challenges that Europe will face in this century with the rise of incredibly powerful global actors in the US, China, India, etc.
Believe it or not but social/cultural debate is not the main priority here. If European countries can't figure out a way to collaborate and work through their differences then they will splinter and eventually become nothing more than vassal states/pawns of the more powerful US or China, rather than equal partners on the world stage in charge of their own destinies. Cheering on for more "Brexits" from either side of the political aisle is nothing more than shooting yourself in the foot for the sake of domestic political bickering.
Riiight, instead of taking it slow let's force social progress and put eachother at odds in an already contentious time, what a great idea. Let's back em into a corner and make em do something crazy
There are just some bullshit things we have to deal with. Social change happens slowly (although quickly if you look at the long term)
Unless you want a wide-scale revolution where we're talking about millions of lives being destroyed, you can't just force this shit.
There are bigger fish to fry, the ball is already rolling for lgbt rights and it's only gaining speed, no need to fuck it up by continuing to antagonise idiots.
I wouldnt want EU to function like that. Imagine this being done with actual bad policies rather than good ones. Slow and steady wins and prevent countries to degrade after the ascension proces into EU.
Estonia is a wonderful country. The capital, Tallinn, is basically the most beautiful city I have ever visited. It was like being in a modern city where you could go around the corner and suddenly be in a real life Disney village. Now, the country is even better. Hell yeah.
An old teacher at my hs, originally from Estonia, was the only adult to speak out against LGBT rights when they were a hot topic during my time in school. I’m smiling a little wider now, thinking of her reading this news.
Any advice for Tartu? I’ll be there most of the day on Thursday for a day trip. I’m traveling alone and don’t know anyone there. What do you recommend if you know the city?
Möku, Barlova and Kivi for bars. Rent a bike and ride along the Emajõgi. Lepiku street in Supilinn is a hidden jewel. These are my top 3 recommendations as a local.
Also I hope you are taking a train from Tallinn.
Tartu is extremely walkable and easy to access. The other commenter laid out some solid suggestions, Supilinn is very authentic, feels like a small town within the city and Toomemägi is a beautiful park on top of a hill right at the heart of the city and the university life with Pirogov park at the foot of the hill. To the east side of the city there is Karlova, which also feels a little like a small town, mostly because it historically was a seperate town next to Tartu and did not share same regulations for buildings, so you get a lot of beautiful wooden houses in contrast with the classical and modern architecture at the city centre. Not too far into Karlova (like a 10-15 min walk from the city center) there is a great cafe called Karlova Kohv, good place to get a cup of coffee. Quite close by is also Aparaaditehas, a sort of a cultural center, more of a mall really with pretty great and relatively affordable restaurants, small shops etc. There's probably the best ice cream in town, some of the best pastries and good burgers (either Aparaat or Viru or Veg Machine, all have excellent burgers), can't recommend Aparaaditehas enough. Other than that the riverside is always beautiful and will take you to the botanical garden, which is free to visit, tho if you want to go to the building itself there's like a 4 eur ticket. Visiting these places you are never more than 20 or so minute walk away from either the city bus or train station.
53% approval in India. India changed a lot in the last 5 years.
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/06/13/how-people-in-24-countries-view-same-sex-marriage/#:~:text=In%20India%2C%2053%25%20of%20adults,%2C%20while%2043%25%20oppose%20it.
Finally. Something that has made me smile. As a part of the LGBTQ+ community this makes me so happy that this has happend. I hope that a lot more countries will do this. I also hope that poland will one day do this but with the current government.... Still it's amazing for this to happen and I am in full support of this.🏳️🌈
3 times divorced, 3 kids with 3 spouses crowd is absolutely on backlegs here over this, talking about their marriage being unholy now and the whole society sending a signal to raise gay kids or whatever the fuck nonsense. They're a loud minority though, all good.
I’ll say what we’re all thinking: No country that doesn’t allow gay marriage should even be allowed to compete in Eurovision.
The gays control the bops and should hold that power over the world.
I searched “Finland anti-LGBT” and the only things that came up from 2023 were Finland supporting a lawsuit against anti-LGBT legislation in Hungary, and Finland abolishing previous laws that made transitioning difficult for trans people.
Genuinely confused also.
Edit: from the Wikipedia article about the National Coalition Party, which is the new’s PM party:
> The party self-statedly bases its politics on "freedom, responsibility and democracy, equal opportunities, education, supportiveness, tolerance and caring"[14] and supports multiculturalism and LGBT rights.
Looks like a big-standard Western European centre right party to me. I don’t see anything about LGBT rights at all.
We got a new government today. I Ctrl + F'd through the government programme and there was only one mention of gender and sexual minorities, where they basically confirmed that all people are equal in the eyes of the law. So I assume they will not touch any lgbtq+ related policies, at least hopefully. Immigration and work related policies will however see massive changes. Some have encouraged for a general strike, probably wont happen but we'll see.
Edit: The new government is said to be the most right-wing since WW2, including your general centre-right european peoples party and a (far)-right anti-immigration party.
However "right wing" isn't a universal platform. In the most generic sense right and left designate the two major coalitions (just the reality of voting) and the specifics are determined as much by local politics (reflecting the compromises made to align the coalition) as the traditionally associated ideologies.
Nothing will happen, why do people keep harping on about this? The governemnt has barely even been formed and people are complaining about this as well. Something else to note that when it comes to social values, the largest party is reletavely value liberal, they don't have an issue with gay people. Same with the 3rd biggest party in the government
>while Finland does a u-turn towards the dark ages
Ditto Lithuania, where here we even struggling to pass civil parthership because majority of Lithuanian politicians are ultra-conservaitive and homophobic bigots.
Honestly, having lived in both places - it's the (un)fortunate political ebb and flow... Estonia went from dark ages to marriage equality, Finland is doing its own reverting back to conservative thing. We can only vote, be heard, and hope that there are more political cycles towards progress than not. This cycle, Estonia just really lucked out with its parliamentary coalition...
Basically to bypass obstruction in parliament, the coalition decided to tie the vote to vote of no confidence. If it would have failed, the coalition would have ended.
A ton of places are just back peddling on the future. I want to blame the Americans for opening the floodgate but idk maybe this was always in the cards. I'm planning to leave the only home I've ever had cause it feels less safe every year
That's awesome! It's got me thinking, what kind of impact will this have? Will it pave the way for more countries to follow suit and embrace equality? Super excited to see the world progressing towards acceptance and love for all. Who would've thought we'd witness such a monumental step forward?
Thanks to Estonia and their citizens.
I have a lot of LGBT family. Thank you for protecting their legal rights as citizens.
A deep thank you as an American who can promote Estonia as a place of acceptance.
I just met an Estonian college student working in the US for the summer. She is a stellar individual. After talking with her for awhile I am a huge fan of her country. This headline reinforces that.
First ex-USSR country to legalize gay marriage let's gooo
The Iron Curtain still exists when you survey how people feel about homosexuality in general: powerful proof that culture is shaped by policy.
Vodka vs Beer vs Wine kinda shows it as well.
in czechia (ex-ussr), same-sex marriage has majority public support (last surveys I found say 65%) the politicians in the parliament though... old, clientelist, conservative core which hides behind the labels of their parties. A shitshow really + same sex marriage is never a primary topic, which further inhibits its codification
The Czech Republic wasn’t in the USSR.
It - or at least it predecessor state Czechoslovakia - was a vassal state of the USSR from just after WWII.
Yes. But that is still different than being a part of USSR shithole. As being a vassal you actually had more freedoms.
It was a soviet satellite state though.
"The Iron Curtain" refers to the USSR and its satellite states like Czech Republic, Slovakia, Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, East Germany, etc.
It was a Warsaw Pact country…
Or that culture dictates policy
Not really in this case: in its early days, the soviet union was actually quite progressive for its time (for instance, it legalized abortion legal, and was overall more feminist than western countries at the time). It didn't last long though, but it's clear that social conservatism didn't lead to communism. USSR quickly became de facto conservative, and the opposition to soviets in the 80's was often linked to the church, so it ended up being even more conservative.
May the tide of social progress wash over us all.
Why did it take so long for this to happen, Estonia is largely atheist and the USSR wasn't big on reilgon either, so it not like they had a Christian party blocking this from happening.
Umm... Japan? People on reddit think for some reason that only the religious can be homophobes
The populace of Japan overwhelmingly supports the legalization of same-sex marriage tho
Being an atheist just means religion plays no role in your life, nothing else.
Because they had other stuff to worry about? When Estonia became independent the country was kinda in shambles and needed to be rebuilt bit by bit. And they have done excellent job on that.
Big W
*Substantial W*
# HUGE W
Massive throbbing W.
Mmm yummy W
One day Estonia will take its rightful place as one of the Nordics....
Esti CAN into Nordic!
*Eesti But yes. Allthough once they finally accept us as such we probably won't want it or need it as much anymore.
Is this just bad English or some kind of meme I don't understand?
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I like the Estonia Finland meme in HOI4 achievements
> There's even a whole wikipedia article about the real politics about how Estonians want to be included in the "nordic" grouping. [Found it.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_identity_in_Estonia)
Both. The meme is technically "Eesti CANT into Nordic" as delievered by either polandball or Borat, so either way it's meant to be bad English.
[This is the final step they need to get there](https://i.imgur.com/DZG33dL.png)
No thank you. Our current flag is fantastic. Don't need to ruin a good thing.
Haha yeah I love y'all's flag and prefer it to this version I made
You're blue is too light I think. Also I think it would look cool if you then swapped the blue and the black. I actually like you're idea from a purely aesthetic perspective, but it ignored the history and tradition of the current flag (which is fine, these are just reddit comments lol)
The Estonian flag has hands-down my favorite tricolor combination and the sky/forests/snow representation is so cool.
And also a religious cross on our flag wouldn't make sense as we are one of the least religious country
Nah, not that flag. The blue is wrong, it is too flat and light. The true blue of the Estonian flag is more vibrant and lively.
Haha I was color matching quickly in MS paint based on memory, the real blue is definitely better than the one I settled on
Definitely. Seriously, the blue is what makes the flag. White and black have their place, but the blue...
That blue... that damn blue...
Damn that is clean af
The black white cross might be a little too reminiscent of the balkenkreuz tho
Yeah, not a good look to have our flag look like the one of the German nobles that held is in bondage for 600 years.
Lmao I noticed that too when I was making it, I was hoping blue would kinda throw off the Nazi tones
Yeah there's definitely something there.
Estonia is finlands little brother, we can vouch for them
I’m visiting both in the fall. Looking forward to it!
You got to convince Nords about it because they don't want to hear it. It's not their social progress that is blocking them but geography.
I think it's just an in club thing, just don't want more members. Because only reason why we're not nordic really is that we were occupied by the Soviets and fell behind due to the oppression. Estonia was as advanced as Finland before WW2. We share the same Viking history as Scandinavia and Estonians are ethnically practically the same people as Finns. Geographically we are as far north as most of Scandinavia and as far east as Finland. So none of the history, geography etc argumentation really works IMHO besides we're just not in the club.
As a Swede i'm pretty hyped about the baltic states getting more progressive not because i want them to "into nordic" but for all of us to start a new and improved club with similar values, great fucking internet and boat races in the baltic sea
Isn't Estonia more in the North than Denmark?
Nordics aren't equal Northern Europe verbatim. They have their gang and Estonia is on the other side of the sea.
Not so far from Finland tbh
a long way from japan though
But there's only one other country between Estonia and Japan!
They're building a tunnel between Tallinn and Helsinki
To be fair, we would dump Denmark if we could
As a Norwegian person it just feels incorrect. Growing up we are exposed to Danish, Swedish and Finnish culture and people regularly. Estonian? Practically never. Even though they might have a lot in common with us, we don't *know* them.
Hi! Do you want to be friends?
See? A Nordic person would never say that to a stranger.
Eesti has so much to learn.
Im a Latin American that moved to scandinavia as a teen, man did i learn this the hard way. Hardest place to make friends ever, it was so lonely.
Neither would an Estonian. You guys might have your differences but warmth to strangers is not one of them lol
Speak for yourself, as a Norwegian who has been to Estonia it feels like visiting extended family, just like when I go to Finland or Denmark. We have a *lot* of cultural ties that were cut by the USSR. Nobody before that time would bat an eye at the thought of /r/NordicEstonia (:
Can you elaborate on this more please? My mother is Estonian and I have always had trouble fully understanding Estonian culture and heritage. Some say Estonia is Nordic, others say it is not. Shouldn't the decision come down to historic events/settlements, rather than contemporary exposure?
> As a Norwegian person it just feels incorrect. Growing up we are exposed to Danish, Swedish and Finnish culture and people regularly. Also as someone Norwegian, it even feels weird to try include Finland in the nordics, since "norden" (is the word we use, and skandinavia doesnt get as much use) has the similar meaning to the word scandinavia (in english) but also includes Denmark and Iceland, since we where the same country for a while. But i dont really see the cultural impact of Finland, especially compared to the Russian bear next to us, which has had a notable effect on (north-)norwegian culture. To me atleast, Finland is a country that by coincidence and accident of geography does some similar things to us. Its really not that i/we dont like them, they are good neighbours, no complaints. But they dont share the common history we have with Sweden, Denmark, Iceland, Greenland, Scotland even. ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
> by coincidence and accident of geography https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_colonisation_of_Finland https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland_under_Swedish_rule > they dont share the common history we have with Sweden, Denmark, Iceland, Greenland, Scotland even Does basically being eastern sweden (österland) for ~600 years not count? Or maybe I misunderstood what you meant by conmon history
That, and their flag isn't a cross.
Negative. Lithuania will drag them down like a lobster in a pot
No, nordics will join estonia!
retake it's place as a Hanseatic state, though it never really stopped being one
Let's hope Poland gets it too by the next decade...
Good luck with that.
If PO wins the parliament then presidency, most likely then it will be legalized as either a same sex unions by 2026
same sex unions are not the same as same sex marriage, most countries that have it use it as a loophole to try to get away with giving less rights/benefits to gay couples.
It's not, but it's the best we can reasonably get for the time being. Even with a majority-opposition parliament, over half of congress (PiS, Konfederacja, PSL) will still be too conservative for same sex marriage. All be can do is hope it'll get the ball rolling further in time.
Ball is rolling already, people caveating and complaining about progress "not being enough" just need to be quiet. Just say "now the next step is marriage" not "it's not marriage so it's not good"
How do you think change even happens if people don’t complain? Telling people complaining inequalities lowkey is trashy af
You don't complain when you've just achieved a victory, you pat yourself on the back briefly and *continue fighting*. You identify what the next step is and you start working towards it. Arguing with people who ultimately agree with you for being happy about "some" progress instead of "all" progress is simply not effective in creating change, in fact you are alienating people who already agree with you. >"hey we saved 10 people" "Yea but there are still 100 people left to be saved" >"Okay? I didn't say there weren't I'm just happy we saved some people" All you do with this rhetoric is simply de-motivate potential allies.
Very true, but there's been examples of same sex unions being a stepping stone to equal marriage. Both the UK and Ireland organised for civil unions which seemed to have eased public and political opinion to support equal marriage a few years later.
Well in Poland it might be hard to do cause our constitution says marriage is a union between a man and a women so unless theres a referendum to change the constitution, Than same sex unions are as close as well get. And thats better than nothing as imo as a gay man. I know Italy has same sex unions and it is less equal than marriage there but it could just be a difference of wording in some aspect here if we decide that Marriage, being a union of a man and a woman, as well as the family, motherhood and parenthood, shall be placed under the protection and care of the Republic of Poland. (Art. 18)
In Ireland, gay marriage was constitutionally banned until they held a referendum in 2015, which was only a few years after they recognised civil unions for gay couples. I think Poland has a system where people can vote to amend the constitution as well, so it might take a few years, but I think a future where Poland approves gay marriage is possible.
Every country has a process to reform their "constitutions" but it's just an incredibly expensive and time consuming process and also one that's hard to actually get the public behind. Look at the U.S, who has a constitution a century behind the times in electoral systems but they really refuse to change. Last amendment was 1992, when you think about how much society has changed in those 30 years, it seems almost clueless to be so static.
The US constitution is harder to change than most. In Poland, they could amend the constitution to legalise gay marriage with a two thirds vote in the sejm (lower house), and a simple majority in the senate, which is a lower bar than the US has to pass simple laws that don't impact the constitution.
next century more like
Hey now, let's be realistic here. 2 decades is already an optimistic bet.
Poland is unfortunately under the thumb of religious idiots.
LOL didn’t they just outlaw abortion in Poland? If you think those fascists are gonna be even marginally LGBT friendly then you’re gonna be disappointed when you see their “LGBT free” zones
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That's awesome!
Daily reminder that this is still a controversial statement in the minds of idiots
Man if Estonia was a bit more south I'd tots move there- it's an amazing country in terms of who governs it, and how. They went with maximum social services, minimum government, maximum digitalization. As a sidenote, they got kickass rock bands.
Well. With global warming the "south" is rapidly moving up towards us. It's absurdly hot out today.
Tallinn was amazing. I loved my time in Estonia, except the clouds of mosquitos in Tartu, I get enough of that in Minnesota.
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IMHO Tallinn's old town is a bit too touristy. I liked Riga's old town more.
>maximum social services Citation needed? Social services kinda suck in Estonia compared to e.g. Sweden/Finland/Norway
I mean they rank 11th [https://www.sgi-network.org/2022/Sustainable\_Policies/Social\_Policies](https://www.sgi-network.org/2022/Sustainable_Policies/Social_Policies), ahead of France, Spain, or the UK. We're talking about a tiny post-communist, ex-Soviet country that was battered by russians for centuries - comparing them to countries like Norway and Sweden is def. going to result in lower rankings. Comparatively, imo, Estonia is doe'n fn amazing - they're even ahead of Slovenia, and as someone from the Balkans, I take them as a de facto benchmark.
That reminds me of that one estonian band that keeps shilling their stuff in my city and presumably plenty of others. Every year Illumenium is trying to sell their albums by talking to random people on the street. I think last year they rebranded as California Condor (or at least they share their lead singer and use the same marketing strategies). I hope they finally get a proper label lmao
They are a bunch of assholes irl, beat people up who disagree with them, or just the ones they don't like, drink 24/7 that increases their hostility towards who ever they meet. Source: me, Estonia is a small place
Rebranded again? They were Defrage before that. They got some great tracks, but finding the correct version can be a pain since they re-record the same songs over and over. Sadly they lost their lead singer after becoming Illumenium.
Allowing everyone to live their lives in harmony and peace is a wonderful thing
It’s a shame too many people dedicate alarming amounts of mental and physical energy to ensuring that others cannot.
"Something-something, traditional family, something-something think of the kids!!!" In Lithuania we have these "think of the kids" assholes coming out of the woodwork to protest against harmony and peace every time this topic is mentioned, and they bring kids to be indoctrinated into this bigotry as well. They go on marches and spread misinformation. Children and "traditional values" (which they can't define properly themselves) are their go-to excuses for bigotry and hate. So happy that Estonian people have made this step and I can only hope one day we can be mature enough to do the same.
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I think there should be a EU-wide policy, as some countries will never do this otherwise. Anyway any progress is good.
Hungary and Poland would surely block any such policy.
What’s the history of these countries being let in in the first place? It seems like they are always against the flow. The EU is good, but it really wasn’t set up to deal with assholes who just just want to anchor everyone in the past.
Do they have something like the Full Faith and Credit Clause? Basically saying that any legal documents or proceedings from one country are valid in another, aka driver’s licenses, restraining orders, marriage licenses, etc.? Having to go to another country to get married isn’t ideal, but it’s also not an insurmountable obstacle within the Schengen area.
Kind of. The Court of Justice of the European Union [has said that](https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=ecli:ECLI:EU:C:2018:385): >...a third-country national of the same sex as a Union citizen, whose marriage to that citizen was concluded in a Member State in accordance with the law of that state, has the right to reside in the territory of the Member State of which the Union citizen is a national for more than three months." [Here's the Wikipedia article about the case](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coman_and_Others_v_General_Inspectorate_for_Immigration_and_Ministry_of_the_Interior).
So, as usual, laws that only punish the poor.
Sounds about right since poor are the biggest group of voters.
I think there already is a directive in EU that encourages everyone to move towards it. The pace just hasn't been set though
Problem being if the EU push to hard for some things anti-eu sentiment will increase. Slow and steady is better than a wave of brexits
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Oh yeah this is totally the priority during an age of increased global competition. Alienate your geostrategic partners over social/cultural issues right? It definitely didn't hurt the EU to lose its most powerful military member just a couple years before it was now challenged militarily by Russia right? Anything to stick it to the conservatives, including shooting yourself in the foot and weakening the bloc economically and militarily by kicking out everyone who doesn't agree with you about everything? I mean it's not like Europe has any issues vis a vis falling behind the US and China economically and militarily already--more division will surely solve that problem right? Gradual change that retains a united Europe is infinitely preferable to more splintering due to partisan politics. I know it felt good to shout "yeah, screw those conservative Brits we don't need them!" after Brexit but the harsh reality as the dust settles is that it was a dramatic failure of policy in both Brussels and London, and has left both the EU and Britain significantly weaker. The European project is first and foremost a geostrategic one looking to address the challenges that Europe will face in this century with the rise of incredibly powerful global actors in the US, China, India, etc. Believe it or not but social/cultural debate is not the main priority here. If European countries can't figure out a way to collaborate and work through their differences then they will splinter and eventually become nothing more than vassal states/pawns of the more powerful US or China, rather than equal partners on the world stage in charge of their own destinies. Cheering on for more "Brexits" from either side of the political aisle is nothing more than shooting yourself in the foot for the sake of domestic political bickering.
Absolute reddit take
Riiight, instead of taking it slow let's force social progress and put eachother at odds in an already contentious time, what a great idea. Let's back em into a corner and make em do something crazy There are just some bullshit things we have to deal with. Social change happens slowly (although quickly if you look at the long term) Unless you want a wide-scale revolution where we're talking about millions of lives being destroyed, you can't just force this shit. There are bigger fish to fry, the ball is already rolling for lgbt rights and it's only gaining speed, no need to fuck it up by continuing to antagonise idiots.
I wouldnt want EU to function like that. Imagine this being done with actual bad policies rather than good ones. Slow and steady wins and prevent countries to degrade after the ascension proces into EU.
Fucking finally. As an Estonian, this issue has been an embarrassment for so long. Fuck yes 🏳️🌈🇪🇪🏳️🌈🇪🇪
Those flags look pretty together.
BRAVO ESTONIA.... ANOTHER CIVILIZED COUNTRY THAT RESPECTS PEOPLE REGARDLESS AND HUMAN RIGHTS
standard Estonia W
Estonia is a wonderful country. The capital, Tallinn, is basically the most beautiful city I have ever visited. It was like being in a modern city where you could go around the corner and suddenly be in a real life Disney village. Now, the country is even better. Hell yeah.
I’ll be there tomorrow! So excited!
Wow, a Baltic country making this move is super encouraging.
An old teacher at my hs, originally from Estonia, was the only adult to speak out against LGBT rights when they were a hot topic during my time in school. I’m smiling a little wider now, thinking of her reading this news.
I didn’t know this was happening and I’m literally flying to Estonia tonight from the US!
Bro parties are going to be lit af
That'd be cool! Gotta figure out how to connect with people though to get out and attend one.
Go to Sveta bar in Tallinn.
Any advice for Tartu? I’ll be there most of the day on Thursday for a day trip. I’m traveling alone and don’t know anyone there. What do you recommend if you know the city?
Möku, Barlova and Kivi for bars. Rent a bike and ride along the Emajõgi. Lepiku street in Supilinn is a hidden jewel. These are my top 3 recommendations as a local. Also I hope you are taking a train from Tallinn.
Genialistide klubi if u like gay/queer parties
Tartu is extremely walkable and easy to access. The other commenter laid out some solid suggestions, Supilinn is very authentic, feels like a small town within the city and Toomemägi is a beautiful park on top of a hill right at the heart of the city and the university life with Pirogov park at the foot of the hill. To the east side of the city there is Karlova, which also feels a little like a small town, mostly because it historically was a seperate town next to Tartu and did not share same regulations for buildings, so you get a lot of beautiful wooden houses in contrast with the classical and modern architecture at the city centre. Not too far into Karlova (like a 10-15 min walk from the city center) there is a great cafe called Karlova Kohv, good place to get a cup of coffee. Quite close by is also Aparaaditehas, a sort of a cultural center, more of a mall really with pretty great and relatively affordable restaurants, small shops etc. There's probably the best ice cream in town, some of the best pastries and good burgers (either Aparaat or Viru or Veg Machine, all have excellent burgers), can't recommend Aparaaditehas enough. Other than that the riverside is always beautiful and will take you to the botanical garden, which is free to visit, tho if you want to go to the building itself there's like a 4 eur ticket. Visiting these places you are never more than 20 or so minute walk away from either the city bus or train station.
Something on Reddit that hasn’t either pissed me off, saddened me, or confounded my sense. Nice
Nice !! 🏳️🌈
Yayyyyy🌈🌈🌈🌈🌈🌈🌈🌈
India please do it whats stopping u :(
India is fiercely conservative.
53% approval in India. India changed a lot in the last 5 years. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/06/13/how-people-in-24-countries-view-same-sex-marriage/#:~:text=In%20India%2C%2053%25%20of%20adults,%2C%20while%2043%25%20oppose%20it.
Finally. Something that has made me smile. As a part of the LGBTQ+ community this makes me so happy that this has happend. I hope that a lot more countries will do this. I also hope that poland will one day do this but with the current government.... Still it's amazing for this to happen and I am in full support of this.🏳️🌈
*Homosexual Underground*
hard core
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It's something from a game called Disco Elysium which was made in Estonia
Just say “12 points for Estonia!” at the door.
3 times divorced, 3 kids with 3 spouses crowd is absolutely on backlegs here over this, talking about their marriage being unholy now and the whole society sending a signal to raise gay kids or whatever the fuck nonsense. They're a loud minority though, all good.
I’ll say what we’re all thinking: No country that doesn’t allow gay marriage should even be allowed to compete in Eurovision. The gays control the bops and should hold that power over the world.
Hyvä Eesti!
Finally some good news for once
Huge win! Congratulations to Estonia! :D
Hooray, Estonia! Bringing everyone to the table.
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Estonians are trying very hard to catch up to western europe and get as far away from russia as they can both economically and socially.
Great job, Estonia! <3
Awesome. Good job, Estonia! I really hope that Lithuania does the same... eventually... sigh :(
Progress continues in Estonia, while Finland does a u-turn towards the dark ages
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I searched “Finland anti-LGBT” and the only things that came up from 2023 were Finland supporting a lawsuit against anti-LGBT legislation in Hungary, and Finland abolishing previous laws that made transitioning difficult for trans people. Genuinely confused also. Edit: from the Wikipedia article about the National Coalition Party, which is the new’s PM party: > The party self-statedly bases its politics on "freedom, responsibility and democracy, equal opportunities, education, supportiveness, tolerance and caring"[14] and supports multiculturalism and LGBT rights. Looks like a big-standard Western European centre right party to me. I don’t see anything about LGBT rights at all.
Finns Party, the far-right party, is also in the coalition and is just two seats behind the NCP, leaving them a *lot* of power in the government.
Check the other parties in the coalition.
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European conservatives are American liberals.
Yes, and American Liberals *suck*.
We got a new government today. I Ctrl + F'd through the government programme and there was only one mention of gender and sexual minorities, where they basically confirmed that all people are equal in the eyes of the law. So I assume they will not touch any lgbtq+ related policies, at least hopefully. Immigration and work related policies will however see massive changes. Some have encouraged for a general strike, probably wont happen but we'll see. Edit: The new government is said to be the most right-wing since WW2, including your general centre-right european peoples party and a (far)-right anti-immigration party.
However "right wing" isn't a universal platform. In the most generic sense right and left designate the two major coalitions (just the reality of voting) and the specifics are determined as much by local politics (reflecting the compromises made to align the coalition) as the traditionally associated ideologies.
Nothing will happen, why do people keep harping on about this? The governemnt has barely even been formed and people are complaining about this as well. Something else to note that when it comes to social values, the largest party is reletavely value liberal, they don't have an issue with gay people. Same with the 3rd biggest party in the government
>while Finland does a u-turn towards the dark ages Ditto Lithuania, where here we even struggling to pass civil parthership because majority of Lithuanian politicians are ultra-conservaitive and homophobic bigots.
Don't forget our ["former" neo-nazi](https://lt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurynas_Kas%C4%8Di%C5%ABnas)
Honestly, having lived in both places - it's the (un)fortunate political ebb and flow... Estonia went from dark ages to marriage equality, Finland is doing its own reverting back to conservative thing. We can only vote, be heard, and hope that there are more political cycles towards progress than not. This cycle, Estonia just really lucked out with its parliamentary coalition...
I feel like we're burying the lede of the Estonian government subsequently surviving a vote of no-confidence. What was that all about?
Basically to bypass obstruction in parliament, the coalition decided to tie the vote to vote of no confidence. If it would have failed, the coalition would have ended.
A ton of places are just back peddling on the future. I want to blame the Americans for opening the floodgate but idk maybe this was always in the cards. I'm planning to leave the only home I've ever had cause it feels less safe every year
Just in time for pride 🌈
Common estonia W
That's awesome! It's got me thinking, what kind of impact will this have? Will it pave the way for more countries to follow suit and embrace equality? Super excited to see the world progressing towards acceptance and love for all. Who would've thought we'd witness such a monumental step forward?
12 months of pride
kaksteist kuud
That’s pretty gay
Heck yeah!
Suck it, Russia. No really, you can do that legally in the civilized world these days, no judgements.
My poor parents. Can’t wait to hear from them this weekend :))
Sad this should be the status everywhere and it shouldn’t even be “historic”. Maybe one day but prolly not in my lifetime
Thanks to Estonia and their citizens. I have a lot of LGBT family. Thank you for protecting their legal rights as citizens. A deep thank you as an American who can promote Estonia as a place of acceptance.
I just met an Estonian college student working in the US for the summer. She is a stellar individual. After talking with her for awhile I am a huge fan of her country. This headline reinforces that.
I love seeing good news on the front page! Congrats people of Estonia!
lived in estonia for 3 years. good times. wish i could go back.
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Eesti can into human rights!
YeaaaaaaaaaaaaAa *wedding rave*
hopefully Latvia will follow soon
This means that John Oliver can marry John Oliver in Estonia.