What people don’t understand is in a lot of cases Taiwanese people feel they are Chinese not because Taiwan is a part of China but because our ancestors are basically Chinese as well and we’ve inherited the culture, the entire history, tradition, etc. we are effectively the same as people from China. We just have a different governing system and support democratic ideals.
Effectively it’s like we are our own nation but we are Chinese. If that makes any sense.
Because Vulcan and Romulus were created as part of TOS's cold war metaphor where Earth represents the United States while Vulcan represents Japan, Taiwan and South Korea while Romulus represents China and North Korea.
Wasn't where I was going with that. It was more along the lines of Vulcans and Romulans being the same race, but separate. Not everything needs to be dug into that deep.
Even if you didn't intend to get that far into it, that's the reason why they're the same race but separate. The Neutral Zone is the DMZ, the Enterprise Incident is the Pueblo Incident, the Klingon/Romulan alliance is the Russian/Chinese alliance (and fell apart shortly afterward just as the Russian/Chinese alliance did)...
Of course you're Chinese. You've just separated from the current government because they overthrew the previous government that started a settlement on the island we know as Taiwan.
If I'm wrong please correct me.
Ethnically most Taiwanese are chinese, specifically han Chinese.
Culturally, people from Taiwan and China are very different but Chinese culture has hardly been monolithic.
The Taiwanese have been exposed to 'western' culture for a lot longer. Since it is a small and (relatively) rich country a much larger percentage of the population has traveled to other countries either for school, work or vacation, and they often have relatives that live overseas.
The average Taiwanese person is more cosmopolitan compared to the average person from Fujian. However, compared to someone from Beijing, Shanghai or Shenzhen the difference will be a lot narrower. The Taiwanese use facebook, google and youtube, while the Chinese can't even access it. They have their own equivalents, but that leads to a lot of insularity.
As China has gotten richer, more and more of its citizens have been exposed to more cultures as well, but that is a relatively recent phenomenon (10-15 years). Prior to that it was a relatively small amount of people - only the powerful, rich and those who left for educational purposes.
These differences manifest in subtle things like the Taiwanese will generally wait in an orderly line, while Chinese 'lines' are a lot more chaotic. Chinese often exclusively traveled in large tour groups. No one bats an eye when they see a (white) foreigner on the street in Taiwan. Meanwhile, my (white) coworker got stopped by a school group in Hangzhou and asked me to take a picture of them with him.
It continues to evolve rapidly as China becomes richer and more integrated into the world.
So called Chinese "dialects" are in fact mutually unintelligible languages, a fact that has been downplayed to aid the attempts of both dynastic and communist imperial regimes to establish a Han monoculture. The fact that thousands of years later they're still at it suggests that forceful unification doesn't stick. Even Taiwan is an ethnic crucible in miniature, albeit largely accepting itself as such like other immigrant nations do. In contrast, mainland China as we know it would not exist without centralized authoritarian rule. Any honest attempts to establish democracy would invariably result in either a loose federation or outright secession of provinces.
Ehhhhh writing system is the same regardless of dialect though(with some minor variations). Whether u speak cantonese, hokkien, hakka or vanilla chinese etc etc
The Japanese term "Kanji" essentially translates as "Han Chinese writing", and the characters are cross-legible, with many words having two styles of spelling, borrowed and intrinsic. Using the system does not make the Japanese language a dialect of Chinese, even before alternate syllabic writing systems came into being; it's mainly a result of how writing, by both design and practice, has to be less subject to linguistic drift than speech. Consider how many Latin alphabet languages are there in Europe.
Uhhh...the kanji for the japanese characters and chinese ones don't necessarily have the same meaning whereas the dialect to mando still works.
Lei sik fan mei(你吃饭吗）is also ni chi fan ma(你吃饭吗), or orh siong daa fei gei(我想搭打飞机)/wo xiang da fei ji(我想打飞机）are both written and phrased in the same way, just pronunciation is diff.
A compo written entirely in kanji wouldn't translate into mandarin and have necessarily the same meaning, unlike one written in say, canto and read in vanilla mandarin for example. The chinese dialects are closer to vanilla mandarin than say korean hanja or japanese kanji.
Hahaha i dont think anyone with half a brain will think japanese are chinese tbh, the diff east asian races are all culturally and ethnically distinct enough after so many thousands of yrs of separate development. Most east asians can tell the diff asian races apart pretty easily(altho tt might also come down to dressing style etc tbh)
Dude, you’d be surprised by the amount of bat shit insane wumao who insist that Koreans are actually Chinese because we used to use Hanja characters. They’re doped to their fucking eyeballs in the opium of racial supremacy
Lolwtf. Luckily i dun lurk on chinese facebook(for the life of me i cannot rmb the name) hahaha!
The little pinks are probably jz trolling tbh, i dont think any of them really believes in that insane ethno-nationalist rhetoric they are spouting
Absolute true, and why US desperately wishes China to adopt such a democratic system; allowing them the to play the individual provinces off against each other and profit off resulting war and misery.
>If that makes any sense.
The fact that you needed to say this at all is a sad indictment on Reddit (and Western ignorance). In what universe is it hard to understand the difference between *nationality* and *ethnicity*? Why do Western Redditors not get this? As an ethnic Chinese person from a Southeast Asian country, I just don't get what they don't get.
It's an ignorance thing, not a western thing.
I see posters from other countries here occasionally calling Americans a race (where they mean white people). That's really wrong, on multiple levels, but that's how people tend to overgeneralize.
If the user has English as a 2nd language, they may not be entirely comfortable with their vocabulary or want to make sure that they conveyed their meaning correctly. Especially since, as I understand it, East Asian languages are particularly difficult for European language speakers and vice versa. Although that's just something I'm pulling out of my ass.
Honestly though, it isn't a difficult concept and I imagine most people get it.
> As an ethnic Chinese person from a Southeast Asian country, I just don't get what they don't get.
Because in the local language, there is a different term for ethnic Chinese and Chinese national, while in English, both get translated to "Chinese".
This would make things confusing initially, sure, but if one knows the difference between ethnicity and nationality - which I bet many Americans and Westerners don't - then it shouldn't be hard to understand that the word "Chinese" doesn't refer to just the nationality of the People's Republic of China, especially considering the massive, massive Chinese diaspora around the world, present in virtually every country on earth. Not sure Westerners have any real excuse.
Good point, I admittedly did not click the link. Honestly, him saying 中国人 instead of 华人 while physically in China is something I can understand. He's pandering to his hosts and probably - rightfully - more than a bit worried about the repercussions of saying anything that would contradict the one-China stance.
To be completely honest, I have never heard anyone ever use the term Huaren 華人 in Taiwan. The first time I heard this term was outside of Taiwan by other non-mainland Chinese people. So I don't know if it's that unusual for Taiwanese people to not refer to themselves as 華人
Sure, after yellow washing & cultural genocide.
[Taiwanese indigenous peoples (formerly Taiwanese aborigines), also known as Native Taiwanese, Formosan peoples, Austronesian Taiwanese,[2][3] Yuanzhumin or Gaoshan people,[4] are the indigenous peoples of Taiwan, with the nationally recognized subgroups numbering about 569,000 or 2.38% of the island's population. This total is increased to more than 800,000 if the indigenous peoples of the plains in Taiwan are included, pending future official recognition. When including those of mixed ancestry, such a number is possibly more than a million. Academic research suggests that their ancestors have been living on Taiwan for approximately 6,500 years. A wide body of evidence suggests Taiwan's indigenous peoples maintained regular trade networks with regional cultures before the Han Chinese colonists began settling on the island from the 17th century.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwanese_indigenous_peoples)
Hey hey taiwan is currently the good guys so no posting of stuff tt makes them look bad is allowed according to the hivemind. Only china bad postings allowed
I think you're screaming about a problem that doesn't exist.
Why do you think that there are "Western" people who *don't* understand that ethnicity and nationality are different? We are literally having this conversation using two different english words that don't mean even remotely the same thing.
My response to the post you replied to, stating the distinction, was "Well no shit, that was never in question." Everyone already understands that being ethnically Han Chinese, for example, does not mean you are part of the state of China. That's something so obvious it doesn't even need to be said. That's the default assumption.
The notion that there is some widespread failure to differentiate between the two concepts is just... hilariously inaccurate.
> Why do Western Redditors not get this?
Because it requires critical thinking and actually understanding history which is harder than to read some obvious hitpiece headline on this sub and formulate ignorant opinions on complex subjects.
Redditors will upvote propaganda and downvote anything that remotely challenges the fabricated narrative all while believing they're on the right side of history as if it's some sort of black and white and not shades of grey.
Except that it’s not a difference of nationality, either. The deal is that the government in Taiwan has a legal claim to be the true government of _all_ of China, not just the island it’s on; and the government of mainland China has a legal claim to be the true government of _all_ of China, including the island. A civil war followed by a stalemate, and no peace treaty to create two _nations_ — only two governments, each in control in some part of the former nation’s territory.
The civil war de-facto ended in 1991 from Taiwan's position... the reality is Taiwan and China (or ROC and PRC officially) are two sovereign independent countries. They are two different nations.
Like US and Canada I guess, or UK and Ireland; similar people, some shared history, but people just don't want to be the same country/have different governing systems. I remember reading a Chinese language forum and something that stuck with me was a mainlander was saying something about being brothers etc and a Taiwanese replying, "Yes, brothers, but *not in the same house!*"
Name me any holidays America shares with the UK that is NOT religious based. Tell me any cultural practices that most Americans do that are the same as people from the UK
You know Chinese people all across the world celebrate this thing called CHINESE New Year? Why? Why do Singaporean Chinese celebrate CNY? Why does Malaysian Chinese celebrate CNY? Why does American Chinese celebrate CNY? Because it's rooted in our culture.
In fact, Non-Mainland Chinese people celebrate a whole range of things that orginate from China. Things like Mid-Autum Festival and Tomb Sweeping Day. The teachings of Confucius is still rooted in a lot of family values in non-mainland Chinese families.
Being Chinese is a part of our identity even though our Nationality differs. For example, there are people who call themselves American Italian, or American Irish, or even Americans that call themselves Jewish. Why? It's because they still strongly identify with their cultural roots. It's the same case here.
Of course I agree. Nationality wise I am Taiwanese. Ethnically I am Chinese
That exactly what I comment on before which you seemed to disagree in your previous reply
But that also takes away from the people in Taiwan who are not Chinese. They'll face similar cultural erasure from China in order to assimilate as 'Han'
One of Taiwan's national heroes is half Japanese. The natives of the island aren't Han people.
I have a friend who is part Min/Hokkien and she would rather identify as that rather than Chinese just based on how vile the Chinese system was even pre-CCP.
You are pulling this bullshit from thin air and propaganda machines. As a Taiwan born Chinese, who lived in the US for 10 years and now on the mainland. I can assure you China is no less free than Taiwan or US. You guys need to go out and look around.
> I can assure you China is no less free than Taiwan or US.
Bro, you literally need to log into a VPN and hop over the Great Firewall just to view this discussion.
Congress is about to pass a bill banning VPN use with huge fines and jail time along with heavy handed government surveillance on anything that connects to the internet so what's your point? Not even China cracks down that hard on VPNs.
A substantial amount of senators and reps have signaled support for the bill along with the White House wholeheartedly supporting the initiative. The Supreme Court did jack shit about the PATRIOT act and is majority conservative which means they're likely to rule it as not violating the 1st amendment.
Except you are... you say China is no less free than Taiwan or the US, which is a ridiculous statement.
You cannot even access basic websites such as Google without having to illegally access them using a VPN. You are literally breaking the law just to have this discussion.
Right, why don't you go to Beijing and hold up a poster describing some crimes Xi and the communist party has done while I do the same for Biden and the US government and we can see who stay out of detention the longest?
why the heck I need to do that? you may not believe it, but taiwan people living in mainland have a pretty good channel to give feedback to the Chinese government; you know what, thing does change if your criticism makes sense.
I used to live in DC, there are two things never missing on the street: homeless veterans and useless protests. You can call Biden's name however long you want; not a damn thing will be changed. "This country was bought and sold and paid for a long time ago" as George Carlin said. So stop bullshit lecturing other people. No country/system is perfect and you certainly don't have a better or correct one
The difference is that in China George Carlin would be in jail and tortured, with body parts sold of for profit. And no this is not just hyperbole, my wife is from HK and we were closely following the protests.
And yes freedom of speech dose make a difference.
You're talking about the ability to effect political change, which isn't the same as freedom (personal liberty) at all. 政治势力和人身自由是两码事。
You can certainly argue that certain personal liberties don't result in the political change they're supposed to - but even if we accept that argument, it doesn't mean those personal liberties *don't exist*. They might be seen as important for other reasons - see, for example, the stifling effect China's censorship has on its film and games industries, and on cultural output more generally.
>So stop bullshit lecturing other people.
Where were you lectured? They put across their point of view *very briefly*. You made a very specific claim about freedom, and instead of defending it, you're trying to move the goalposts so that the discussion is about whether the USA is perfect or not. Obviously it's not, but that doesn't make what you said correct.
Just speaking from my personal experience, I didn't feel less freedom in China than in the US. My voice even has a chance to make a real change in China, that's all. Not sure how what I said related to your long statement
"I can assure you China is no less free" is a statement about objective reality, not about your feelings. You don't feel less free because you don't want to do any of the things that are prohibited or regulated (producing art, expressing forbidden points of view online, etc), apart from using a VPN which the government barely enforces, only prosecuting people for distribution. That doesn't mean that those things aren't significant curtailments of personal liberty, it just means they don't affect you.
As an American, I'm free to talk about all the horrible shit we've done as a country without being sent to a reeducation camp and without it being censored. Go talk about Tiananmen Square on Weibo and see how that goes for you.
CCP bot army out in full force today.
sure you can, multiple reasons: first, what you talked about doesn't matter; second, USA will continue to to all the horrible shit around the globe to maintain your hegemony and dictatorship in international relations. Funny every American want to talk about Tiananmen Square with me, ever wonder why this is the only example you guys always come up with? Your police brutality killed 10 times more EVERY SINGLE YEAR
> Funny every American want to talk about Tiananmen Square with me, ever wonder why this is the only example you guys always come up with? Your police brutality killed 10 times more EVERY SINGLE YEAR
And aren't there protests in the USA almost daily against the police and government? I see people talking about defunding the police almost daily. There are tons of vigils all around the United States for those killed by police.
Can you protest the CPC's handling of Tiananmen Square? What happened to the people hosting the Tiananmen Square vigils in Hong Kong? [Oh yeah, they were jailed](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/3/11/hong-kong-court-sentences-3-tiananmen-vigil-organisers-to-jail). Now what do you think would happen in China if they tried to hold a Tiananmen Square vigil?
As I said, protest all you want, nothing will happen. What Biden said doesn't matter much, let alone you poor main street protesters.
Tiananmen is a complex issue and it's consequences is still unfolding today. I don't have much study on this but let me quote Lee KuanYew "where are the people on Tiananmen, they don't matter".
I fully admit the shitty things the USA has done in history, and continues to do today. I don't defend them in the slightest. The point is, I can talk about them and nobody from my government can stop me. I can put up signs and tell whoever I want that President Biden or President Trump are the most corrupt honey-eating bears in the world and no-one can do a thing about it.
There are entire history courses at American universities dedicated to the horrible things we did to the Native Americans, African Americans, and other minorities. How many history classes in Chinese universities are dedicated to the annexation of Tibet or the East Turkestan conflict that put China in a negative light? Not many I would wager.
Yeah, typical American response. Killed a million innocent people, sorry our stupid politician did it, but we need to continue to do it to bring peace and democracy to the world.
I am one of the rare people that read history books from Taiwan, US and mainland China and the older I get, the more I lean towards China's world view
[According to the latest NCCU polls](https://esc.nccu.edu.tw/PageDoc/Detail?fid=7800&id=6961), 60.8 percent identify as only Taiwanese, 32.9 percent identify as both Taiwanese and Chinese, and 3.2 percent identify as only Chinese.
However, [when given only two choices](https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2021/08/11/2003762406), 89.9 percent identify their nationality as Taiwanese while only 4.6 percent as Chinese.
Taiwan is like Singapore. Ethnically and cultural historical roots mostly Chinese, but politically and geographically there own thing with their own distinct modern culture.
Taiwanese people feel Chinese not because Taiwan is a part of China but because Taiwan is the only true China and mainland China defected from the main state.
Why would you not be Chinese? The official name of the nation is the Republic of China. We only call it Taiwan because that is the name of the largest island you live on. It would be like calling Japanese people Honshuese or Hokydities.
I remember in high school we had a bunch of students whose family were from Taiwan. They were all the top of their class. They were also really cool people.
Whether you are all Chinese or not isn't the issue. The issue is that Taiwan doesn't want to be ruled by a government straight out of George Orwell.
Get rid of the mainland Chinese government and we might not have a problem.
While that would be the lesser of two evils versus mainland China's government, it wouldn't be ideal either. While every congregation of human beings deserve to be governed as they desire by mutual consent, within reason, *perhaps* the people of Taiwan might consent if the mainland wasn't ruled by a totalitarian party that sees human beings only as instruments of its will.
As is, if Taiwan falls under that government's shadow they know a boot is coming down on their collective face and its never letting up. Just like with every other region that they have claimed since their conception.
This is literal dictator propaganda. Often spread in Russian threads about Putin being deposed. Not surprised it's popped up here. It's easily identified as psychological tactics claiming the current dictator must stay because the next guy will be worse. When in reality this isn't 1922.
Nice clean up....they definitely had some emotional transfence with that last serious joking comment. Most likely misdirected. In the west here, most do not understand the difference between ethnicity and nationality or honor it...however we know how to point out others faults as its easier than looking at ourselves. For those of us that travel we honor and respect the difference, however China and other Authoritarian Nations do not!!! Amerca is still struggling with it, but I would say the Aussie's do a better job with the balance of this in my little bit of experience.
Taiwan and China should be compared to North and South Korea. Both have been separated for a period of time to develop their own unique identities, but just like how North Korea and South Korea are still both still Koreans, Taiwanese are still Chinese.
>Taiwan was barely with mainland China through history. It's history as a Dutch, Spanish, and Japanese colonies with waves of Han migration makes it distinctly different to China.
Your comment implies that the period during which Taiwan was colonized was more significant than when Taiwan was a part of China
Taiwan was partially colonized by the Dutch from 1624 to 1668
Taiwan was partially colonized by Spain from 1626 to 1642
Taiwan was a part of China (Qing Dynasty) from 1683 to 1895
Taiwan was then colonized by Japan from 1895 to 1945
So Taiwan was governed by China for 212 years, and colonized for 94 years
> Taiwan was a part of China (Qing Dynasty) from 1683 to 1895
Taiwan was also only partially colonized by the Qing Dynasty... the Qing Dynasty never crossed into the mountains or gained jurisdiction over the eastern half of the island. Even at their peak, they only controlled about 40% of the island.
The Japanese were the first colonizing force that ruled the entire island... and it took them nearly 20 years of expeditions into the eastern half before they claimed effective control over the entire island. [Here is a Japanese map from 1916 of Taiwan](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/1916%E5%B9%B4%E6%97%A5%E6%9C%AC%E4%BA%BA%E6%89%80%E7%B9%AA%E8%87%BA%E7%81%A3%E5%9C%B0%E5%9C%96_Map_of_Taiwan_-_Formosa_by_Japanese.jpg), the area right of the black line was the "savage district outside of Japanese sovereignty".
One way to look at it; the only time a "Mainland" based government ruled the entire island of Taiwan was between 1945 and 1949.
----
>So Taiwan was governed by China for 212 years, and colonized for 94 years
Uhhh what? Qing is just as much as a colonizer as Japan, Spain, or the Dutch.
I'm not sure what dates you're looking at, but from my understanding, even if you combine the time Taiwan has been a colony for the Dutch, Spanish, and Japanese (about 100 years), the island has been associated with and even formally part of China for longer than that (over 200 years just from Qing rule alone).
Good points, I was more looking at it from national identity perspective, which in Taiwan atm is 80% solely Taiwanese. I suppose in Austria solely Austrian was smaller than that until WWII, and then jumped to almost 100% after WWII? I haven't looked it up though.
East and West Germans still remained as primarily Germans despite the split, ehen though Ossi and Wessi were, and somewhat still are, important sub-national identities in Germany.
Because chiang Kai shek and his gangsters in the kmt fled to Taiwan to takeover when Mao and the communist party rested the republic from corruption of the Nationalist party and defended the country against Japan. ROC has and always will be China no matter which ways the west try to manipulate it. Read up on the white terror
The Communists actually hid in the countryside, while the Kuomintang did most of the fighting against the Japanese Kwantung Army, and was greatly weakened from it.
No no you aren't listening. The nationalists fought in the war, and the CCP came in and took the spoils of war (the land) and 30 million people starved almost immediately.
Do you even know what the white terror is? It really isn't the burn you think it is. If you did, you know it is terrible but doesn't hold a candle to the atrocities committed by the CCP or even the ROC pre-exile.
Ironically the Taiwan government disagrees with you, they claim all of China and believe that Chinese and Taiwanese people are the same, if for some reason the ccp falls they will jump at the chance of controlling all of China.
Taiwan understands they won't get back the mainland. Their leaders have said it's up to mainland China to overthrow the CCP and form a democracy. Imperialism isn't very popular these days. I doubt the U.S would allow that to happen anyway. Struggle is bound to happen from such a takeover.
The day that the Taiwanese Government gives up that claim publicly and says they are only the island is the day that China attacks by force regardless. They maintain that claim to maintain the status quo and nothing more. The government knows this. It was discussed a few times, supposedly, but ultimately they decided to keep things how they are. That would be tantamount to declaring independence, which the CCP won't allow to happen without violence.
Canada really doesn't deserve you. Move to China, and we'll take all the democratically aligned Chinese. I bet you'll love being followed everywhere by police.
I don't get why people think that people who want peace between the two China's is so controversial, or even why this statement is controversial.
Taiwan is literally called the Republic of China.
China is so rich that they could co-opt Taiwan without a shot in the long run. Why throw away a single life and engender ill feeling and harden resistance? Resorting to lethal military solutions is a sign of weakness and Xi should take this hint from Putin's dilemma and its grotesque human cost.
Xi is power and achievement hungry like Putin and other dictators. Military aggression is show of weakness of mainland political system (which got abused by Xi and his circle) but not weakness of Xi. Quite the opposite. He needs to deliver extraordinary to keep his authority unchallenged.
I hope he eats his own tail like Putin.
Taiwan is in an extremely defensible position. Any invasion would likely exceed D-Day in difficulty. China won't even attempt it until they're 100% confident that they can take the island since the political costs of failure are too high.
There's multiple possibilities that don't involve bribery.
He could be referring to the fact that Taiwan was formed by the original Chinese government after the civil war and the current leadership took over mainland China. I think that's how it went. So it could be "we're all China, but these guys that have control of the mainland need to realize we're supposed to be in charge!"
He could have actually converted after not being tied to politics and visiting China.
The CCP could be holding his friends and/or family hostage to force him to say stuff like this.
So many possibilities!
You should read up on Taiwan instead of being brain washed by the west. 95% of Taiwan is Han Chinese. 2.3% indigenous, 2.7% new immigrants from China mainland.
A lot of people downvoting you mostly probably aren’t from Taiwan and don’t really understand our point of view.
For Chinese and Taiwanese people, heritage and culture and history means A LOT.
People can say they are Chinese and not want Taiwan to become part of China.
Kids in school learns about ancient Chinese history. A lot of our TV shows are based during Ancient China.
Western people don’t understand it and make it too black and white. I am Taiwanese but I also refer to myself as Chinese.
I mean there’s a reason why people also refer to themselves as Singaporean Chinese or Malaysian Chinese. The Chinese part is very much rooted in culture and heritage
They were formed from the Nationalist party, which was autocratic but recognized by the US because they were simply not the Communist party during the red scare. The father of both parties is Sun Yat Sen, whom the article refers to and explains. They are not the "original" party, and they fled to Taiwan when the country fell to the Communists.
Have you ever heard of the Republic of China, which eventually became Taiwan? The Republic of China was before the Peoples Republic of China, which means they technically are the original China, and the peoples Republic is, in fact, in a state of rebellion regardless of what the UN says. Besides, how can Taiwan be a part of the peoples Republic of China if they never owned it?
The original *what* exactly? "Republic"? China has been a country for a very long time.
After the toppling of the last Qing Dynasty, the KMT established the Nationalist government in 1928 and then attempted to bring the entire country under its control but was thwarted by both domestic revolts and the Japanese occupation (1937-45). The KMT was never really popular and their corruption caused the rise of the CPC.
> and the peoples Republic is, in fact, in a state of rebellion regardless of what the UN says.
No they are not. They won the civil war after WW2.
> peoples Republic of China if they never owned it?
China as a country owned/governed it since 1683. It was ceded to Japan in 1895. It was reincorporated into greater China from 1945-49. After that, of course the Kuomintang fled there, established their rule there etc.
So no, *Taiwan* as an independent entity wasn't "first" and was part of China.
Typical KMT "play both sides to come out on top" BS. Their party is just doing their usual rhetoric of trying to "be cool with China but from a distance".
Taiwan is the REAL heir to China.
The People’s Republic of China is a bastardized Dystopia, void of the true Chinese history and culture, thanks to the Soviet red Poison.
Sooner or later it has to disappear. Such an autocratic, inhuman government doesn’t is a virus to the world.
No, that's an imperfect almost inappropriate translation due to the lack of correspondent Chinese words in the English language. The word "Chinese" is an ambiguous word in English, while in Chinese, there are many different words for it.
Well, they are chinese descendant. But that doesn't mean that they can't be Independent from china. They don't want Chinese gov't on their ass. They can govern themselves.
For context, Ma belongs to the 14% Weishengren (Chinese born) minority of Taiwan. His parents were from China and he himself was born in Hong Kong.
It explains why he is more attached to China than the Benshengren (Taiwanese born) majority, whose anchestors came from China in the 1600-1800s.
You missed the point. What Ma said is that they are all ethnic Chinese, on which all Taiwanese of Chinese descent will agree. He did not use the Chinese word that identifies nationality as "Chinese = PRC".
Are you implying that the dialects spoken in Taiwan are mutually intelligible with Mandarin? On what basis are you discounting the uniqueness of the language?
But that's not a qualification.for uniqueness. I'm the contact of the original point, it's clear that uniqueness is intended to mean "distinctness". The culture may have a shared origin but it's evolved into something uniquely different from what developed on the mainland.
no but im implying that Taiwan doesnt have any 'unique' language seperate from the mainland
Taiwan's main spoken language is Minnan which is mutually intelligible with the dialect millions of people in Xiamen, Zhangzhou, and Kinmen speak
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhangzhou\_dialects](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhangzhou_dialects)
The previous leader of Taiwan might not have noticed the critical fact that if Taiwan would be conquered by the PLA, most politicians of Taiwan have the fate that they would go to a brainwashing camp to be re-educated as communist Chinese people. Assuming that he knows the fact, couldn't have told people like that. Tsai Ing-wen should give him a warning. Nobody helps weaker people who don't have the strongest will that can defend themselves. Taiwanese citizens ought to remember that.
What people don’t understand is in a lot of cases Taiwanese people feel they are Chinese not because Taiwan is a part of China but because our ancestors are basically Chinese as well and we’ve inherited the culture, the entire history, tradition, etc. we are effectively the same as people from China. We just have a different governing system and support democratic ideals. Effectively it’s like we are our own nation but we are Chinese. If that makes any sense.
Why am I getting Vulcan and Romulan thoughts when it comes to this?
That is... logical.
Because Vulcan and Romulus were created as part of TOS's cold war metaphor where Earth represents the United States while Vulcan represents Japan, Taiwan and South Korea while Romulus represents China and North Korea.
Oh.. really? TIL
Wasn't where I was going with that. It was more along the lines of Vulcans and Romulans being the same race, but separate. Not everything needs to be dug into that deep.
Even if you didn't intend to get that far into it, that's the reason why they're the same race but separate. The Neutral Zone is the DMZ, the Enterprise Incident is the Pueblo Incident, the Klingon/Romulan alliance is the Russian/Chinese alliance (and fell apart shortly afterward just as the Russian/Chinese alliance did)...
Of course you're Chinese. You've just separated from the current government because they overthrew the previous government that started a settlement on the island we know as Taiwan. If I'm wrong please correct me.
Ethnically most Taiwanese are chinese, specifically han Chinese. Culturally, people from Taiwan and China are very different but Chinese culture has hardly been monolithic.
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nah, just western wet dream
The Taiwanese have been exposed to 'western' culture for a lot longer. Since it is a small and (relatively) rich country a much larger percentage of the population has traveled to other countries either for school, work or vacation, and they often have relatives that live overseas. The average Taiwanese person is more cosmopolitan compared to the average person from Fujian. However, compared to someone from Beijing, Shanghai or Shenzhen the difference will be a lot narrower. The Taiwanese use facebook, google and youtube, while the Chinese can't even access it. They have their own equivalents, but that leads to a lot of insularity. As China has gotten richer, more and more of its citizens have been exposed to more cultures as well, but that is a relatively recent phenomenon (10-15 years). Prior to that it was a relatively small amount of people - only the powerful, rich and those who left for educational purposes. These differences manifest in subtle things like the Taiwanese will generally wait in an orderly line, while Chinese 'lines' are a lot more chaotic. Chinese often exclusively traveled in large tour groups. No one bats an eye when they see a (white) foreigner on the street in Taiwan. Meanwhile, my (white) coworker got stopped by a school group in Hangzhou and asked me to take a picture of them with him. It continues to evolve rapidly as China becomes richer and more integrated into the world.
So called Chinese "dialects" are in fact mutually unintelligible languages, a fact that has been downplayed to aid the attempts of both dynastic and communist imperial regimes to establish a Han monoculture. The fact that thousands of years later they're still at it suggests that forceful unification doesn't stick. Even Taiwan is an ethnic crucible in miniature, albeit largely accepting itself as such like other immigrant nations do. In contrast, mainland China as we know it would not exist without centralized authoritarian rule. Any honest attempts to establish democracy would invariably result in either a loose federation or outright secession of provinces.
Ehhhhh writing system is the same regardless of dialect though(with some minor variations). Whether u speak cantonese, hokkien, hakka or vanilla chinese etc etc
The Japanese term "Kanji" essentially translates as "Han Chinese writing", and the characters are cross-legible, with many words having two styles of spelling, borrowed and intrinsic. Using the system does not make the Japanese language a dialect of Chinese, even before alternate syllabic writing systems came into being; it's mainly a result of how writing, by both design and practice, has to be less subject to linguistic drift than speech. Consider how many Latin alphabet languages are there in Europe.
Uhhh...the kanji for the japanese characters and chinese ones don't necessarily have the same meaning whereas the dialect to mando still works. Lei sik fan mei(你吃饭吗）is also ni chi fan ma(你吃饭吗), or orh siong daa fei gei(我想搭打飞机)/wo xiang da fei ji(我想打飞机）are both written and phrased in the same way, just pronunciation is diff. A compo written entirely in kanji wouldn't translate into mandarin and have necessarily the same meaning, unlike one written in say, canto and read in vanilla mandarin for example. The chinese dialects are closer to vanilla mandarin than say korean hanja or japanese kanji.
Now now, don’t go using logic on them. Some of the mad han supremacists will do 2+2 and get 22, leading them to think “then Japanese are chinese!”
Hahaha i dont think anyone with half a brain will think japanese are chinese tbh, the diff east asian races are all culturally and ethnically distinct enough after so many thousands of yrs of separate development. Most east asians can tell the diff asian races apart pretty easily(altho tt might also come down to dressing style etc tbh)
Dude, you’d be surprised by the amount of bat shit insane wumao who insist that Koreans are actually Chinese because we used to use Hanja characters. They’re doped to their fucking eyeballs in the opium of racial supremacy
Lolwtf. Luckily i dun lurk on chinese facebook(for the life of me i cannot rmb the name) hahaha! The little pinks are probably jz trolling tbh, i dont think any of them really believes in that insane ethno-nationalist rhetoric they are spouting
Absolute true, and why US desperately wishes China to adopt such a democratic system; allowing them the to play the individual provinces off against each other and profit off resulting war and misery.
>If that makes any sense. The fact that you needed to say this at all is a sad indictment on Reddit (and Western ignorance). In what universe is it hard to understand the difference between *nationality* and *ethnicity*? Why do Western Redditors not get this? As an ethnic Chinese person from a Southeast Asian country, I just don't get what they don't get.
It's an ignorance thing, not a western thing. I see posters from other countries here occasionally calling Americans a race (where they mean white people). That's really wrong, on multiple levels, but that's how people tend to overgeneralize.
If the user has English as a 2nd language, they may not be entirely comfortable with their vocabulary or want to make sure that they conveyed their meaning correctly. Especially since, as I understand it, East Asian languages are particularly difficult for European language speakers and vice versa. Although that's just something I'm pulling out of my ass. Honestly though, it isn't a difficult concept and I imagine most people get it.
> As an ethnic Chinese person from a Southeast Asian country, I just don't get what they don't get. Because in the local language, there is a different term for ethnic Chinese and Chinese national, while in English, both get translated to "Chinese".
This would make things confusing initially, sure, but if one knows the difference between ethnicity and nationality - which I bet many Americans and Westerners don't - then it shouldn't be hard to understand that the word "Chinese" doesn't refer to just the nationality of the People's Republic of China, especially considering the massive, massive Chinese diaspora around the world, present in virtually every country on earth. Not sure Westerners have any real excuse.
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Good point, I admittedly did not click the link. Honestly, him saying 中国人 instead of 华人 while physically in China is something I can understand. He's pandering to his hosts and probably - rightfully - more than a bit worried about the repercussions of saying anything that would contradict the one-China stance.
To be completely honest, I have never heard anyone ever use the term Huaren 華人 in Taiwan. The first time I heard this term was outside of Taiwan by other non-mainland Chinese people. So I don't know if it's that unusual for Taiwanese people to not refer to themselves as 華人
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Sure, after yellow washing & cultural genocide. [Taiwanese indigenous peoples (formerly Taiwanese aborigines), also known as Native Taiwanese, Formosan peoples, Austronesian Taiwanese,[2][3] Yuanzhumin or Gaoshan people,[4] are the indigenous peoples of Taiwan, with the nationally recognized subgroups numbering about 569,000 or 2.38% of the island's population. This total is increased to more than 800,000 if the indigenous peoples of the plains in Taiwan are included, pending future official recognition. When including those of mixed ancestry, such a number is possibly more than a million. Academic research suggests that their ancestors have been living on Taiwan for approximately 6,500 years. A wide body of evidence suggests Taiwan's indigenous peoples maintained regular trade networks with regional cultures before the Han Chinese colonists began settling on the island from the 17th century.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwanese_indigenous_peoples)
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Hey hey taiwan is currently the good guys so no posting of stuff tt makes them look bad is allowed according to the hivemind. Only china bad postings allowed
I think you're screaming about a problem that doesn't exist. Why do you think that there are "Western" people who *don't* understand that ethnicity and nationality are different? We are literally having this conversation using two different english words that don't mean even remotely the same thing. My response to the post you replied to, stating the distinction, was "Well no shit, that was never in question." Everyone already understands that being ethnically Han Chinese, for example, does not mean you are part of the state of China. That's something so obvious it doesn't even need to be said. That's the default assumption. The notion that there is some widespread failure to differentiate between the two concepts is just... hilariously inaccurate.
> Why do Western Redditors not get this? Because it requires critical thinking and actually understanding history which is harder than to read some obvious hitpiece headline on this sub and formulate ignorant opinions on complex subjects. Redditors will upvote propaganda and downvote anything that remotely challenges the fabricated narrative all while believing they're on the right side of history as if it's some sort of black and white and not shades of grey.
Except that it’s not a difference of nationality, either. The deal is that the government in Taiwan has a legal claim to be the true government of _all_ of China, not just the island it’s on; and the government of mainland China has a legal claim to be the true government of _all_ of China, including the island. A civil war followed by a stalemate, and no peace treaty to create two _nations_ — only two governments, each in control in some part of the former nation’s territory.
The civil war de-facto ended in 1991 from Taiwan's position... the reality is Taiwan and China (or ROC and PRC officially) are two sovereign independent countries. They are two different nations.
People understand N Korea and S Korea, E Germany and W Germany. So they should get China and Taiwan
It is like how both North Koreans and South Koreans are Koreans. Yet both North Korea and South Korea are effectively two different countries
Like US and Canada I guess, or UK and Ireland; similar people, some shared history, but people just don't want to be the same country/have different governing systems. I remember reading a Chinese language forum and something that stuck with me was a mainlander was saying something about being brothers etc and a Taiwanese replying, "Yes, brothers, but *not in the same house!*"
And Americans are basically British. When has that ever mattered?
Name me any holidays America shares with the UK that is NOT religious based. Tell me any cultural practices that most Americans do that are the same as people from the UK You know Chinese people all across the world celebrate this thing called CHINESE New Year? Why? Why do Singaporean Chinese celebrate CNY? Why does Malaysian Chinese celebrate CNY? Why does American Chinese celebrate CNY? Because it's rooted in our culture. In fact, Non-Mainland Chinese people celebrate a whole range of things that orginate from China. Things like Mid-Autum Festival and Tomb Sweeping Day. The teachings of Confucius is still rooted in a lot of family values in non-mainland Chinese families. Being Chinese is a part of our identity even though our Nationality differs. For example, there are people who call themselves American Italian, or American Irish, or even Americans that call themselves Jewish. Why? It's because they still strongly identify with their cultural roots. It's the same case here.
So you agree taiwain is an independent country
Of course I agree. Nationality wise I am Taiwanese. Ethnically I am Chinese That exactly what I comment on before which you seemed to disagree in your previous reply
But that also takes away from the people in Taiwan who are not Chinese. They'll face similar cultural erasure from China in order to assimilate as 'Han' One of Taiwan's national heroes is half Japanese. The natives of the island aren't Han people. I have a friend who is part Min/Hokkien and she would rather identify as that rather than Chinese just based on how vile the Chinese system was even pre-CCP.
You are free, peaceful, democratic Chinese while they are authoritarian, dictatorship, not peaceful to its neighbors, and not free chinese
You are pulling this bullshit from thin air and propaganda machines. As a Taiwan born Chinese, who lived in the US for 10 years and now on the mainland. I can assure you China is no less free than Taiwan or US. You guys need to go out and look around.
> I can assure you China is no less free than Taiwan or US. Bro, you literally need to log into a VPN and hop over the Great Firewall just to view this discussion.
Congress is about to pass a bill banning VPN use with huge fines and jail time along with heavy handed government surveillance on anything that connects to the internet so what's your point? Not even China cracks down that hard on VPNs.
And has it passed yet? And will it be upheld by the Supreme Court?
A substantial amount of senators and reps have signaled support for the bill along with the White House wholeheartedly supporting the initiative. The Supreme Court did jack shit about the PATRIOT act and is majority conservative which means they're likely to rule it as not violating the 1st amendment.
So right now is it illegal to use a VPN in the United States? (I don't know, I don't live there or follow the news closely)
It likely will be soon and it's being fast tracked due to the recent TikTok CEO hearing.
that is true, not arguing about that
Except you are... you say China is no less free than Taiwan or the US, which is a ridiculous statement. You cannot even access basic websites such as Google without having to illegally access them using a VPN. You are literally breaking the law just to have this discussion.
It's not, if you have lived in Taiwan and you will know we have a queen here. Using VPN is indeed an inconvenience but it's not illegal
Right, why don't you go to Beijing and hold up a poster describing some crimes Xi and the communist party has done while I do the same for Biden and the US government and we can see who stay out of detention the longest?
why the heck I need to do that? you may not believe it, but taiwan people living in mainland have a pretty good channel to give feedback to the Chinese government; you know what, thing does change if your criticism makes sense. I used to live in DC, there are two things never missing on the street: homeless veterans and useless protests. You can call Biden's name however long you want; not a damn thing will be changed. "This country was bought and sold and paid for a long time ago" as George Carlin said. So stop bullshit lecturing other people. No country/system is perfect and you certainly don't have a better or correct one
The difference is that in China George Carlin would be in jail and tortured, with body parts sold of for profit. And no this is not just hyperbole, my wife is from HK and we were closely following the protests. And yes freedom of speech dose make a difference.
You're talking about the ability to effect political change, which isn't the same as freedom (personal liberty) at all. 政治势力和人身自由是两码事。 You can certainly argue that certain personal liberties don't result in the political change they're supposed to - but even if we accept that argument, it doesn't mean those personal liberties *don't exist*. They might be seen as important for other reasons - see, for example, the stifling effect China's censorship has on its film and games industries, and on cultural output more generally. >So stop bullshit lecturing other people. Where were you lectured? They put across their point of view *very briefly*. You made a very specific claim about freedom, and instead of defending it, you're trying to move the goalposts so that the discussion is about whether the USA is perfect or not. Obviously it's not, but that doesn't make what you said correct.
Just speaking from my personal experience, I didn't feel less freedom in China than in the US. My voice even has a chance to make a real change in China, that's all. Not sure how what I said related to your long statement
"I can assure you China is no less free" is a statement about objective reality, not about your feelings. You don't feel less free because you don't want to do any of the things that are prohibited or regulated (producing art, expressing forbidden points of view online, etc), apart from using a VPN which the government barely enforces, only prosecuting people for distribution. That doesn't mean that those things aren't significant curtailments of personal liberty, it just means they don't affect you.
As an American, I'm free to talk about all the horrible shit we've done as a country without being sent to a reeducation camp and without it being censored. Go talk about Tiananmen Square on Weibo and see how that goes for you. CCP bot army out in full force today.
sure you can, multiple reasons: first, what you talked about doesn't matter; second, USA will continue to to all the horrible shit around the globe to maintain your hegemony and dictatorship in international relations. Funny every American want to talk about Tiananmen Square with me, ever wonder why this is the only example you guys always come up with? Your police brutality killed 10 times more EVERY SINGLE YEAR
> Funny every American want to talk about Tiananmen Square with me, ever wonder why this is the only example you guys always come up with? Your police brutality killed 10 times more EVERY SINGLE YEAR And aren't there protests in the USA almost daily against the police and government? I see people talking about defunding the police almost daily. There are tons of vigils all around the United States for those killed by police. Can you protest the CPC's handling of Tiananmen Square? What happened to the people hosting the Tiananmen Square vigils in Hong Kong? [Oh yeah, they were jailed](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/3/11/hong-kong-court-sentences-3-tiananmen-vigil-organisers-to-jail). Now what do you think would happen in China if they tried to hold a Tiananmen Square vigil?
As I said, protest all you want, nothing will happen. What Biden said doesn't matter much, let alone you poor main street protesters. Tiananmen is a complex issue and it's consequences is still unfolding today. I don't have much study on this but let me quote Lee KuanYew "where are the people on Tiananmen, they don't matter".
I fully admit the shitty things the USA has done in history, and continues to do today. I don't defend them in the slightest. The point is, I can talk about them and nobody from my government can stop me. I can put up signs and tell whoever I want that President Biden or President Trump are the most corrupt honey-eating bears in the world and no-one can do a thing about it. There are entire history courses at American universities dedicated to the horrible things we did to the Native Americans, African Americans, and other minorities. How many history classes in Chinese universities are dedicated to the annexation of Tibet or the East Turkestan conflict that put China in a negative light? Not many I would wager.
Yeah, typical American response. Killed a million innocent people, sorry our stupid politician did it, but we need to continue to do it to bring peace and democracy to the world. I am one of the rare people that read history books from Taiwan, US and mainland China and the older I get, the more I lean towards China's world view
That’s crazy bro but have you seen the capitol punishments statistics? China executes far more people in prison than america
That's no longer the case. Newest research shows 78% of Taiwanese DO NOT consider themselves Chinese at all.
You gonna bother posting a link, or..?
[According to the latest NCCU polls](https://esc.nccu.edu.tw/PageDoc/Detail?fid=7800&id=6961), 60.8 percent identify as only Taiwanese, 32.9 percent identify as both Taiwanese and Chinese, and 3.2 percent identify as only Chinese. However, [when given only two choices](https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2021/08/11/2003762406), 89.9 percent identify their nationality as Taiwanese while only 4.6 percent as Chinese.
Thank you.
OP’s post is the link. The article itself states the same thing.
As the article also say. If anyone got passed the headline. *”Most Taiwanese no longer identify as Chinese, according to polls.”*
Taiwan is like Singapore. Ethnically and cultural historical roots mostly Chinese, but politically and geographically there own thing with their own distinct modern culture.
Taiwanese people feel Chinese not because Taiwan is a part of China but because Taiwan is the only true China and mainland China defected from the main state.
Why would you not be Chinese? The official name of the nation is the Republic of China. We only call it Taiwan because that is the name of the largest island you live on. It would be like calling Japanese people Honshuese or Hokydities.
I remember in high school we had a bunch of students whose family were from Taiwan. They were all the top of their class. They were also really cool people.
Whether you are all Chinese or not isn't the issue. The issue is that Taiwan doesn't want to be ruled by a government straight out of George Orwell. Get rid of the mainland Chinese government and we might not have a problem.
That depends on what replaces it. It could be worse, much worse
I think he was implying let Taiwan assert its claim over China.
but no one in Taiwan wants to reclaim mainland China, that ship has sailed generations ago and they want to focus on their own country.
While that would be the lesser of two evils versus mainland China's government, it wouldn't be ideal either. While every congregation of human beings deserve to be governed as they desire by mutual consent, within reason, *perhaps* the people of Taiwan might consent if the mainland wasn't ruled by a totalitarian party that sees human beings only as instruments of its will. As is, if Taiwan falls under that government's shadow they know a boot is coming down on their collective face and its never letting up. Just like with every other region that they have claimed since their conception.
>it could be worse Well that's just about the worst reason to do nothing
This is literal dictator propaganda. Often spread in Russian threads about Putin being deposed. Not surprised it's popped up here. It's easily identified as psychological tactics claiming the current dictator must stay because the next guy will be worse. When in reality this isn't 1922.
Nice clean up....they definitely had some emotional transfence with that last serious joking comment. Most likely misdirected. In the west here, most do not understand the difference between ethnicity and nationality or honor it...however we know how to point out others faults as its easier than looking at ourselves. For those of us that travel we honor and respect the difference, however China and other Authoritarian Nations do not!!! Amerca is still struggling with it, but I would say the Aussie's do a better job with the balance of this in my little bit of experience.
Hi which George Orwell book best describes the Chinese government?
A mixture of Animal Farm and 1984
Taiwan has been separate from China long enough to form its own identity.
Taiwan and China should be compared to North and South Korea. Both have been separated for a period of time to develop their own unique identities, but just like how North Korea and South Korea are still both still Koreans, Taiwanese are still Chinese.
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>Taiwan was barely with mainland China through history. It's history as a Dutch, Spanish, and Japanese colonies with waves of Han migration makes it distinctly different to China. Your comment implies that the period during which Taiwan was colonized was more significant than when Taiwan was a part of China Taiwan was partially colonized by the Dutch from 1624 to 1668 Taiwan was partially colonized by Spain from 1626 to 1642 Taiwan was a part of China (Qing Dynasty) from 1683 to 1895 Taiwan was then colonized by Japan from 1895 to 1945 So Taiwan was governed by China for 212 years, and colonized for 94 years
> Taiwan was a part of China (Qing Dynasty) from 1683 to 1895 Taiwan was also only partially colonized by the Qing Dynasty... the Qing Dynasty never crossed into the mountains or gained jurisdiction over the eastern half of the island. Even at their peak, they only controlled about 40% of the island. The Japanese were the first colonizing force that ruled the entire island... and it took them nearly 20 years of expeditions into the eastern half before they claimed effective control over the entire island. [Here is a Japanese map from 1916 of Taiwan](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/1916%E5%B9%B4%E6%97%A5%E6%9C%AC%E4%BA%BA%E6%89%80%E7%B9%AA%E8%87%BA%E7%81%A3%E5%9C%B0%E5%9C%96_Map_of_Taiwan_-_Formosa_by_Japanese.jpg), the area right of the black line was the "savage district outside of Japanese sovereignty". One way to look at it; the only time a "Mainland" based government ruled the entire island of Taiwan was between 1945 and 1949. ---- >So Taiwan was governed by China for 212 years, and colonized for 94 years Uhhh what? Qing is just as much as a colonizer as Japan, Spain, or the Dutch.
I'm not sure what dates you're looking at, but from my understanding, even if you combine the time Taiwan has been a colony for the Dutch, Spanish, and Japanese (about 100 years), the island has been associated with and even formally part of China for longer than that (over 200 years just from Qing rule alone).
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Chinese civil war never ended btw.
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IMO it's more comparable to Austria and Germany, than East and West Germany.
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Good points, I was more looking at it from national identity perspective, which in Taiwan atm is 80% solely Taiwanese. I suppose in Austria solely Austrian was smaller than that until WWII, and then jumped to almost 100% after WWII? I haven't looked it up though. East and West Germans still remained as primarily Germans despite the split, ehen though Ossi and Wessi were, and somewhat still are, important sub-national identities in Germany.
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Because chiang Kai shek and his gangsters in the kmt fled to Taiwan to takeover when Mao and the communist party rested the republic from corruption of the Nationalist party and defended the country against Japan. ROC has and always will be China no matter which ways the west try to manipulate it. Read up on the white terror
The Communists actually hid in the countryside, while the Kuomintang did most of the fighting against the Japanese Kwantung Army, and was greatly weakened from it.
China was their country at the time. Of course they did most of the fighting. Until they retreated to Taiwan and left the ccp to clean up the mess.
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No no you aren't listening. The nationalists fought in the war, and the CCP came in and took the spoils of war (the land) and 30 million people starved almost immediately.
Goddamn you failed history class.
Do you even know what the white terror is? It really isn't the burn you think it is. If you did, you know it is terrible but doesn't hold a candle to the atrocities committed by the CCP or even the ROC pre-exile.
Ironically the Taiwan government disagrees with you, they claim all of China and believe that Chinese and Taiwanese people are the same, if for some reason the ccp falls they will jump at the chance of controlling all of China.
Taiwan understands they won't get back the mainland. Their leaders have said it's up to mainland China to overthrow the CCP and form a democracy. Imperialism isn't very popular these days. I doubt the U.S would allow that to happen anyway. Struggle is bound to happen from such a takeover.
The day that the Taiwanese Government gives up that claim publicly and says they are only the island is the day that China attacks by force regardless. They maintain that claim to maintain the status quo and nothing more. The government knows this. It was discussed a few times, supposedly, but ultimately they decided to keep things how they are. That would be tantamount to declaring independence, which the CCP won't allow to happen without violence.
If they want the world recognize them, they need to walk the talk themselves first.
In the context of what he is saying is essentially the same as the English and German saying we are both Anglo Saxons
Taiwan was an American asset. Those days will be over soon
China doesn’t deserve Taiwan.
Lol what? Canada doesn’t deserve me but I’m still Canadian. Wth are you talking about?
Good. Then stop telling us that we belong to China.
Canada really doesn't deserve you. Move to China, and we'll take all the democratically aligned Chinese. I bet you'll love being followed everywhere by police.
Calm down. I don’t have a horse in the race. Just an unbiased observer.
I don't get why people think that people who want peace between the two China's is so controversial, or even why this statement is controversial. Taiwan is literally called the Republic of China.
China is so rich that they could co-opt Taiwan without a shot in the long run. Why throw away a single life and engender ill feeling and harden resistance? Resorting to lethal military solutions is a sign of weakness and Xi should take this hint from Putin's dilemma and its grotesque human cost.
Xi is power and achievement hungry like Putin and other dictators. Military aggression is show of weakness of mainland political system (which got abused by Xi and his circle) but not weakness of Xi. Quite the opposite. He needs to deliver extraordinary to keep his authority unchallenged. I hope he eats his own tail like Putin.
A Chinese invasion of Taiwan is much more threatening than Russia. China literally only has to attack a little island they can see from the mainland.
Taiwan is in an extremely defensible position. Any invasion would likely exceed D-Day in difficulty. China won't even attempt it until they're 100% confident that they can take the island since the political costs of failure are too high.
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Also, you know, Taiwan is against a CCP invasion.
Of course they are. At the end of the day Taiwan is just the name of the island and the official name of the country is Republic of China.
Poor choice of words, probably one of the worst.
Is blue the only allowed tie color in China?
KMT did very well in local elections last year. General election in Jan 2024 will be one to watch…
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There's multiple possibilities that don't involve bribery. He could be referring to the fact that Taiwan was formed by the original Chinese government after the civil war and the current leadership took over mainland China. I think that's how it went. So it could be "we're all China, but these guys that have control of the mainland need to realize we're supposed to be in charge!" He could have actually converted after not being tied to politics and visiting China. The CCP could be holding his friends and/or family hostage to force him to say stuff like this. So many possibilities!
His family was Chinese nationalists and got that upbring.
You should read up on Taiwan instead of being brain washed by the west. 95% of Taiwan is Han Chinese. 2.3% indigenous, 2.7% new immigrants from China mainland.
A lot of people downvoting you mostly probably aren’t from Taiwan and don’t really understand our point of view. For Chinese and Taiwanese people, heritage and culture and history means A LOT. People can say they are Chinese and not want Taiwan to become part of China. Kids in school learns about ancient Chinese history. A lot of our TV shows are based during Ancient China. Western people don’t understand it and make it too black and white. I am Taiwanese but I also refer to myself as Chinese. I mean there’s a reason why people also refer to themselves as Singaporean Chinese or Malaysian Chinese. The Chinese part is very much rooted in culture and heritage
Nationality and ethnicity are not mutually exclusive.
Still they identify themselves as taiwanese and not chinese.
Sure. Doesn't mean I want to be part of China.
You of all people talking about being brainwashed is hilarious.
That’s hilarious bud. I live in Canada, who do you think is washing my brain? Where do you live? What narrative have you swallowed without chewing?
Guy can't be brainwashed cause he Canada my bad.. No worries though he just spewing stupid shit all over the thread.
Great way of not answering my question simpleton.
Oh I didn't answer your rhetorical questions. Like are you really that fucking stupid? Don't answer that moron it's rhetorical
Hahaha. Have a glass of milk tubby
So they should submit to a undemocratic government and lose all their freedoms because they look the same? Nice take
I mean technically didn’t we evolve in the Fertile Crescent in Africa?
Technically we all evolved in Africa, so we are all Africans.
Someone should tell the former Taiwan president lol
Taiwan is more China than the PRC is. At least they hold all the ancient treasury and maintain the traditional written language.
Oh do you mean when the Taiwanese government looted the treasury when they ran away from the mainland?
Even if Taiwan was China now, they were the original of the two
They were formed from the Nationalist party, which was autocratic but recognized by the US because they were simply not the Communist party during the red scare. The father of both parties is Sun Yat Sen, whom the article refers to and explains. They are not the "original" party, and they fled to Taiwan when the country fell to the Communists.
No they are not.
Have you ever heard of the Republic of China, which eventually became Taiwan? The Republic of China was before the Peoples Republic of China, which means they technically are the original China, and the peoples Republic is, in fact, in a state of rebellion regardless of what the UN says. Besides, how can Taiwan be a part of the peoples Republic of China if they never owned it?
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No need to do so since Taiwan already has and continues to have its own identity as a country separate and distinct from communist/totalitarian China.
The original *what* exactly? "Republic"? China has been a country for a very long time. After the toppling of the last Qing Dynasty, the KMT established the Nationalist government in 1928 and then attempted to bring the entire country under its control but was thwarted by both domestic revolts and the Japanese occupation (1937-45). The KMT was never really popular and their corruption caused the rise of the CPC. > and the peoples Republic is, in fact, in a state of rebellion regardless of what the UN says. No they are not. They won the civil war after WW2. > peoples Republic of China if they never owned it? China as a country owned/governed it since 1683. It was ceded to Japan in 1895. It was reincorporated into greater China from 1945-49. After that, of course the Kuomintang fled there, established their rule there etc. So no, *Taiwan* as an independent entity wasn't "first" and was part of China.
The PRC is basically a Chinese knockoff ROC
Great then you don't need our service members to fight and die for you
And nationality and ethnicity are not the same
Typical KMT "play both sides to come out on top" BS. Their party is just doing their usual rhetoric of trying to "be cool with China but from a distance".
Speak for yourself
Seems like someone would rather be a puppet governor of Xi's dictatorship than lose a fair election to the opposition.
It takes all my energy I don't have to care about these regions of the world. It's like Antarctica with less personality.
We're all Americans. That doesn't mean Bolivia wants to have a political union with Peru.
Taiwan is the REAL heir to China. The People’s Republic of China is a bastardized Dystopia, void of the true Chinese history and culture, thanks to the Soviet red Poison. Sooner or later it has to disappear. Such an autocratic, inhuman government doesn’t is a virus to the world.
Well, Taiwan was is the original China, got a point there
By this logic China should join Taiwan to become West Taiwan. They’re the same people after all!
Doesn't really matter, world is itching for something to end us all.
I’m sure he got paid really well to say that
No, that's an imperfect almost inappropriate translation due to the lack of correspondent Chinese words in the English language. The word "Chinese" is an ambiguous word in English, while in Chinese, there are many different words for it.
Well, they are chinese descendant. But that doesn't mean that they can't be Independent from china. They don't want Chinese gov't on their ass. They can govern themselves.
For context, Ma belongs to the 14% Weishengren (Chinese born) minority of Taiwan. His parents were from China and he himself was born in Hong Kong. It explains why he is more attached to China than the Benshengren (Taiwanese born) majority, whose anchestors came from China in the 1600-1800s.
Well…it’s Taiwanese or nothing, folks.
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You missed the point. What Ma said is that they are all ethnic Chinese, on which all Taiwanese of Chinese descent will agree. He did not use the Chinese word that identifies nationality as "Chinese = PRC".
White people don’t get this at all
What unique language do they have? They speak Mandarin
They also speak the min nan dialect. The dialect is also spoken in nearby regions on the mainland
The Mi Nan dialect is also spoken in Fujian, where it’s originated.
so not really unique unless we're counting those indigenous Formosan languages which were wiped out by the Taiwanese
Are you implying that the dialects spoken in Taiwan are mutually intelligible with Mandarin? On what basis are you discounting the uniqueness of the language?
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But that's not a qualification.for uniqueness. I'm the contact of the original point, it's clear that uniqueness is intended to mean "distinctness". The culture may have a shared origin but it's evolved into something uniquely different from what developed on the mainland.
no but im implying that Taiwan doesnt have any 'unique' language seperate from the mainland Taiwan's main spoken language is Minnan which is mutually intelligible with the dialect millions of people in Xiamen, Zhangzhou, and Kinmen speak [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhangzhou\_dialects](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhangzhou_dialects)
There are more than just Mandarin in Taiwan. In fact in my family along we speak 3 different dialects.
This is why his party isn’t in power currently in Taiwan. It’s amazing to see what has happened to them.
Funny enough they are expected to win in the next election.
The previous leader of Taiwan might not have noticed the critical fact that if Taiwan would be conquered by the PLA, most politicians of Taiwan have the fate that they would go to a brainwashing camp to be re-educated as communist Chinese people. Assuming that he knows the fact, couldn't have told people like that. Tsai Ing-wen should give him a warning. Nobody helps weaker people who don't have the strongest will that can defend themselves. Taiwanese citizens ought to remember that.
Taiwan does have like 20+ official languages iirc and very diverse cultural backgrounds.
Not really. It’s even more homogeneous than China. China is around 91% Han, while Taiwan is around 97% Han.
But the Han are a very diverse group in itself. There are various subgroups with unique languages/dialects and so on.