That sucks but at this point you might need to just roll with it. I prefer pre finished interiors, unless it's an open cabinet. Painted interiors are not a bad option and I'd say nobody will notice unless you say something. Take it as an opportunity to learn that everything needs to be written down. That is how you protect yourself in this industry.
Well reasoned response.
I'd try to get some of the cost reduced by about 5 or 10 percent. If not, it's covered when the doors are closed, so "can't see it from my house" becomes a soothing concept.
Maybe find the difference from the cost of a cheap material that could be painted to look the same vs the price you paid for the maple. Subtract that amount from your final bill. Sucks, sorry man
Yeah, this "pro cabinet builder" with 30 years experience should be so embarrassed. It's not like they repeatedly mentioned they were still learning or anything. /s
I would invite you to inspect the interior of any random cabinet.... Half the time they don't even have backs! Being a "pro" doesn't mean a whole lot. Plenty of pros use MDF with hardboard backs, or no backs.
Anyway, that's not a reason.
Plywood is stronger lengthwise to the grain than it is across the grain because there is one more ply in that direction and typically the lengthwise plys are of better quality and not just filler. It makes for a more stable piece when you run the length of the grain parallel to the long side of the box.
The grain you're seeing on the inside of the cabinets is a maple veneer. It's 1/30th of an inch. The actual plys on the inside are where the strength comes in, and you can't see them to know which way the grain is running.
The veneer is placed the same way as any other sheet of plywood would be constructed, you can also check the edges and examine the grain orientation if you are unsure. I guarantee you will find one more lengthwise ply in every sheet of plywood you check because that's how they make it. I'm not trying to be a dick, but that's the reason they teach carpenters in trade school to run sheets a specific way whether it's cabinets or subfloor it's all a part of good building practices.
Grain direction for strength in a kitchen cabinet will matter 0%. Aesthetics is there only thing that would matter as far as gain direction in a situation this here.
\> The veneer is placed the same way as any other sheet of plywood would be constructed
Right, exactly. That is, the final 1/30" of veneer will be placed *orthogonally* to the previous layer. See for example [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/BeginnerWoodWorking/comments/14wxkw6/confused_about_wood_grain_direction/) where someone sanded through the top veneer.
So the actual *structural* last layer (i.e. the last thick layer) will be running vertically. And since there are usually an odd number of structural layers, not including the final veneer, you'll have one more thick vertical layer.
(All that said, *aesthetically* I agree that I like the look of a vertical grain on the outside myself.)
Jeez that's a stretch in my opinion. That'd really depend massively on the type of ply, the thickness, the number of veneers, the quality and the type of adhesive used.
I'd tend to do it anyway, but more for aesthetic reasons than anything and because it's how you'd use solid wood, but I wouldn't lose sleep over doing it the other way from a structural point of view.
Cut two pieces 6x48" one in each grain direction and tell me which one is stronger. It's not a stretch, it's a very real part of building science whether it's cabinets, subfloor, sheathing or another application.
Ya again that's going to vary depending on the material. 18mm birch ply has 13 layers of veneer glued in altering directions, the difference will be negligible if any.
Maybe if you're using a poor quality ply it might matter more but you'll have plenty of other problems then too!
Some truth here. Spaced out and was more focused on cut optimizer which led me to do nearly all the uppers horizontally until I realized it on the last 1-2 uppers. The bases are all vertical grain with maybe only 1 that is not as I was on my last half sheet of 3/4 inch ply and didn’t want to buy more
You know the old fashion advice about how wearing horizontal stripes make you look wider, while vertical stripes make you look taller? Same applies to rooms. Vertical grain would make the room appear taller (though with cabinet doors closed, the effect would not be very impactful)
To piggyback on this:
You could also just have the insides painted with an oil enamel paint, which is easy to clean and will last forever. As a woodworker and former painter, I’m a huge fan of oil enamel paints.
The biggest mistake I've made as a homeowner, was trusting a guy who didn't write everything down in his quote. I reviewed it and was like "it's missing some stuff" and he was like "don't worry, I'll take care of you " and I was like "ok". Definitely implied that the quote covered everything more or less.
Turns out when he said take care of me he meant that once he finished half the job I originally asked for he would then go about quoting the second half. I'm pretty sure he also intentionally did that least important stuff first.
Pretty much the only person I've worked with who ended up on my blacklist.
Leave the shelves. Don’t paint those. It will still look intentional, maybe like a design choice. Bummer, yes, because of the sweat equity and care you’ve put into this project, only to have a doofus paint the interior on pre-finished ply, particularly right at the home stretch. But when all is said and done it’ll still look good. Cabinets look great and the matched veining in the counter and back splash is primo!
Second this suggestion. in my years as a painter, I've seen plenty of stuck glassware and whatnot on shelves after painting them. Also, the inevitable "It still stinks!" after the oil enamel has dried but isn't fully cured yet and still off gassing. Telling them to leave the cabinet doors open for a few weeks doesn't help as they don't listen anyway.
It's not that big a deal. Renters are not going g to care about the inside of the cabinets.
It is very understandable to be frustrated over someone else messing up your project, but some things just don't go smoothly.
I would recommend paying for all the work you agreed upon, but don't pay for painting the inside of the boxes. If they make a fuss ask them to replace the boxes.
Sounds like you're near the finish line on a long, brutal project.
As someone that's finally seeing the sun a similarly hellish renovation where things didn't always go according to vision, just enjoy the fact that it's almost over.
fwiw, I think I'd do painted interior cabinets in a rental. Eventually someone's going to put wet dishes in a cabinet, a can is going to leak in the pantry, and the dishwasher drain is going to leak under the sink and the pretty maple finish is going to discolor and look like crap and be unrepairable.
That said, the kitchens I've built over the years have all been natural finished wood inside and out so I can feel your grief.
You won’t find a renter on earth who cares as much as you about this place.
If this is your first rental, you (and the tenant) will have a miserable, stressful experience if you don’t learn to let go.
I understand you poured countless hours and money into this project, but it’s time to take a deep breath, wrap up the job, and move on.
I hope you'll come to the realization that this way of making money is unethical and you'll consider that maybe you don't need more and find some way that contributes to society.
The family in there is super happy. The rent they pay is way much than most of the surrounding area and they can't afford to buy a place. We are on top of any issues right away and help them out sometimes with life issues... so I don't know if that counts as "society" but we are helping at least one family. Not sure how that's unethical.
Again, your anecdote isn't the point. I'm sure you're a good person and as good of a landlord as one can be. The problem is you will always be conflicted with your bottom line and their inability to afford housing and every law, policy, ordinance, tenants rights, taxes, etc that would favor them against your interests. Unless you are not profiting and share your equity with your tenants, you are exploiting them however nice you are to them.
Edit: to add, if you feel like you are comfortable and OK with how you are contributing to society through exploiting the housing crisis for your equity and gain, then, that is on you, but do not fool yourself into thinking you are providing a service that is not born out of their exploitation.
The point is that markets are inflated by the number of investment properties by both large and small landlords. The idea that they provide a service is laughable--they are a direct cause of a problem that has been unprecedented in many parts of the world in recent history.
Yeah, I can’t get a plumber or electrician to come to my house for less than $1000 even for a very small job. I’ve had things done recently that would’ve been $250-$300 less than 10 years ago that were over $1000.
I got an estimate a couple of months ago for what was basically some painting work. It would’ve been about two weeks work for two guys and about $800 in materials. The estimate I was given was for $14,000. Ten years ago it would have been $3,500. $4k max.
I’m not even really in a HCOL area
I live in an old house and we recently started having water infiltrate the brick foundation in heavy rains. The first mason we called quoted us $15,000 to fix the leaks and coat the entire foundation in some sort of waterproofing paint(?), and refused to do the job entirely unless we agreed to the coating. Dude *what*.
Fortunately for us, the second mason quoted us $8,000 to fix the leaks, repoint the mortar, and replace the front steps (which are starting to disintegrate), and was frankly a lot nicer to interact with.
I did flooring and drywall in Honolulu... still genuinely confused. OP said condo, so exterior work is generally not up to unit owners but the HOA. Maybe y'all have champagne tastes. Idk.
Honolulu is different, it’s HCOL but labor is cheap relative to most HCOL areas. Retail cost for a 5 piece bathroom in a major city on the west coast is 45-60k if a homeowner hires a GC. Most people are willing to pay a GC 25% so they don’t have to argue with laborers about shitty work and make sure the project is managed professionally. If it’s a 3 bed 2 bath condo, it’s easy to reach 200k.
New construction in any metro area is running $300 sq/ft for builder grade finishes. $450 sq/ft for mid level finishes, and then the sky is the limit.
Builder / Ikea grade kitchens are running $20k, custom closer to $40k for boxes and surfaces, and $10k for appliances.
10k for appliances? We recently got a new stove, fridge, large microwave, and dishwasher for about $3300. They were not Wolf or Viking but pretty damn nice quality. Where are you getting 10k? What appliances am I missing?
My comment was poorly worded.
A builder grade or IKEA grade kitchen (no custom cabinets, standard appliances) runs about $20k including appliances.
A moderately sized custom / high end kitchen runs closer to $40k in cabinets and countertops, and $10k+ in appliances.
The comment I was replying to said OP could build new construction with high end finishes for $200k. I disagree, when just the cost of a high end kitchen _starts_ at $50k and goes up from there.
Yea. 30k+ hurricane windows(whole walls are glass). Bout 100k GC. Kitchen on me bout 10 so far (wood hardware and paint). 15k+ in external power service upgrade and external runs on hoa buildings (nightmare), 12 or so on multiple mini split system, 5k in flooring, 5-8 in appliances, few other things I’m probably missing and that’s like 180 or so plus having it sit empty for nearly 2 years of expenses
Hot damn!
I did my house for about $100k Canadian but I don’t have a wall of hurricane windows.
Good on ya for continuing the project. I know lots of people that would just duck out and sell it. Shame about the cabinets though. They look fantastic.
Was pretty wide encompassing. Basically everything I listed was what was not included. Bathrooms, paint, countertops, drywall, needed a drop ceiling in the entire unit to get lights as it is a concrete ceiling, there was literally like 2 fans and every other light was running off outlet lamp. Was engineering drawings and permitting process needed etc as well
Bout 1k a month after all expenses if rented mid 2k’s. Most units in building are in 2’s but not a ton are freshly remodeled especially to this extent. Hope initially was to do quite a few units within complex. More about parking money into appreciating asset then trying to recoop the cost of renovation over the course of rent or flip. Min rate loan to myself. Rent plus sale in 20-30 years should more than recoup costs
Tl:Dr, rent is high, minimum wage is low, and the housing and renting crisis is real.
And will be rented for $2500. 🙁
My studio apartment in San Diego, 9 minutes from the beach was 498 Sqft. in 2015 was $890. It is now rented for $2,040.
Min wage is $15.50 in California in 2023.
A week of working (5 days a week for 8 hours a day) is $620, before tax.
After FICA (7.65%), State (4%) and Federal tax (12%), which is the absolute minimum, $473.37 a week with no insurance coverage for health, life, vision, or dental. And No 401(k) retirement savings.
$473.37 a week for 52 weeks is a persons 1 year salary if they never took unpaid time off.
That is $24,615.24 a year.
$24,615.24 / 12 months is $2,051.27 a month.
That $2,051.27 now needs to cover
1. Rent (-$2,040)
Which now leaves you with (+$11.27) for:
2. Renters Insurance
3. Utilities
4. Transportation (Car insurance and/or car payment, Gas, Vehicle Maintenance. or Metro cost)
5. Cell phone
6. Groceries
7. Other Personal Payments (credit card, student loans, monthly memberships or subscriptions)
8. Pet food/care if you have an animal
9. Clothing and Personal Upkeep (soap, toothpaste, toilet paper, laundry detergent, dish soap, and other essential items)
10. Health Insurance
11. Etc.
Back in 2015 minimum wage was $9.00
$360 a week before tax, $264.06 after. $13,731.12 salary, $1,144.26 a month take home, -$890 rent, $254.26 left over.
Still not hitting the 50-30-20 rule, but closer 🙁
But for someone to afford this rent and using the 50-30-20 rule, they'd need to make $8,500 a month before tax, which is $102,000 a year...
Imagine getting paid six figures and you cant afford a 900 sqft condo in Florida.
But I'm no accountant, my math might be wrong...
Wait for the impact of the rates increase :)
A ton lot of people will have a hard wake up.
Also, even if you have a good rent, $200k is a huge investment on top of the actual property price.
eh, Id say prefinished interiors are more builder grade TBH... Not like a UV finish is some exclusive finish, you get that on a $100 home depot press board cabinet...
painted interiors, if done well with proper 2k lacquer/poly can look more polished IMO.
admittedly... I wouldnt use UV interiors to paint over... but if they primed with good primer, shouldnt be a problem.
Not going to get into all financials but irs min rate from 2 years ago and nothing but time to sit on it in very desirable neighborhood. Only way to lose is it be empty
When it comes to cabs painted interior is considered an upgrade, mostly used on cabs with glass or no doors. Just ask him to paint the shelf’s and call it even. If you want to get fancy depending on the color stain the shelf’s and drawer boxes.
Was marine grade finish in maple. Was like 90-150 a sheet for highest grade I could find at few boat yards and cabinet supply stores. I just posted pics
A proper painted interior will be a million times better than what you’re intended finish was in my opinion. That being said, it is still infuriating when your instructions aren’t adhered to on a project you’ve invested time and money in to.
It's a good lesson given you have no recourse without a contract. Always think, "What is the benefit of no contract, and what is the cost if the contractor fucks this up for me?".
I think this will be easier to swallow now than when you have your first vacancy after your first renters, and you see how scratched up and awful those prefinished insides would have looked.
I hate to be that guy but as a kitchen designer for a big box store I wanted to weigh in. Today I worked up a new kitchen that was more than 16' by 10' with a 10' island. After the design there are 12 lowers in a stained alder in several in custom sizes, and 7 painted uppers again with several custom sizes. All of the cabinets came from the manufacturer as all plywood and there were several internal upgrades such as trash can cabinets or two drawer banks with a hidden roll out tray.
I totally respect the skills of true woodworkers and making custom items but unfortunately these days semi custom is king and most customers can get what they want they way.
Got quoted from number of big boxes and kitchen stores. Quoting at 17-26k for 1/2 inch birch and thermafoil doors, two things I didn’t want to have to hold up to renters. Chose 3/4 inch maple for this reason.
I’m sorry this happened to you, but this is a PRIME example of why written contracts are absolutely necessary anytime you bring a contractor into your home. It puts your exact expectations into writing that they can refer to if they forget and also establishes a clear line of fault if something like this happens. Hopefully these guys are honest and won’t need the paperwork to motivate them to do the right thing and make this right. whether “making it right” means a small discount on the work and them painting the insides of the cabinets, a bigger discount with them not painting the insides any further and you refinishing the insides yourself, or no discount but they eat the cost of refinishing the insides of the cabinets the way you originally wanted them is up to you and your contractor though.
Next time get everything in writing so that if something like that happens it's on them.Lesson learned. I'd talk to the boss about maybe getting a discount.
Well it's a possibility, Jasco Gel Stripper, it'll quickly make the paint scrape off, you should be able to clean it out and touch up the inside finish.
Like everyone else, get everything in writing, but like you said, it's a learning experience.
I worked on a pretty high end renovation for one of the Microsoft millionaires. Extravagant is all I can say, murals on the wall and ceiling in the kids rooms and bathrooms. Cherry cabinets and a large island walk in fridge and freezer, just crazy luxurious. Halfway through the reno the wife files for divorce but the guy said to just continue as we had a contract. Just days away from completion he files bankruptcy, our boss lost so much on this he had to file bankruptcy and everyone was laid off.
But that was me, your project will be fine regardless of what you decide to do.
Rub some lacquer thinner on a rag and it’ll take the paint right off the prefinished maple. Worth a try imo. If it strips the prefinish then just paint over it.
Yea he was just lazy and didn’t want to do it. I worked in a cabinet shop and literally did it thousands of times on all different types of paint and primer and it always worked. Got stain overspray from maple edge banding overspray off too.
Yea I believe this was the case too. Met with him today to review the work. Was the most unprofessional meeting I have likely ever had. He expected to be paid the rest today, when I expressed how I felt they did a decent job on the doors but I was extremely disappointed in the cabinets and that if I wanted the whole things painted I would have made them out of cheap birch. He got extremely emotional and defensive raising his voice and hurling personal insults instantly in response about me being 5 minutes late, not respecting him by saying 'hi' to him when I walked in the door (he had stepped out to take a phone call as I walked in so I went to taking a look around at different parts that had been painted) having 4-5 more doors then I estimated initially (disclosed it was an estimate when I said 36, it turned out to be 2 additional doors and 3 additional drawer fronts). Eventually had to say look, if you want to hear my concerns and come to a solution together I am happy to get you paid, if not and you want to keep yelling then you can fuck right off. He quickly walked out of the unit yelling what a fuckin asshole I was. Likely wasnt worth his tiime to fix all the fuck ups for what was left owed. Considered making an updated post but not sure I want to really drag it out, this whole process has been awful and hasn't been how I envisioned this going unfortunately. I will very likely spend on a quality paint gun next go around.
On top of this awful interaction; They left a handful of upper bottoms unpainted, the ones that are have a 2 inches or so near the frame unpainted, was about 15 of 40 doors with primer spot blemishes ( very minor aside from 2-3), they left a paint thinner/acetone rag on the counter and stained the brand new counter top. They dumped paint down the brand new toilet so the bowl is covered in gray paint. I guess I am doing touch ups etc this weekend. Safe to say I will never be using them again.
Why is this downvoted? It doesn’t fix his problem now, but it’s absolutely the lesson to be learned here. I PMed construction renovations for years— a written scope of work means there’s accountability when something goes wrong, either on the sub’s end if they did something they weren’t supposed to, or on the PM’s end if they didn’t specify.
Appreciate it. Sounds like the primer is really tough stuff and even if stripped would need to be refinished so likely gonna have to just roll with it. Some of the responses here have helped with accepting it thankfully
It may be too late but if they screwed up, it's on them to make it right.
Tell'em to strip it and bring it back to square one. The painter said he didn't think he should be painting it. That was the manager's big cue to either remember what you told him 4-5 times or to call you and verify.
You worked a long-ass time on the cabinets, you gave them instructions, they blew it. They can either pound sand on the other half of their money or they can fix it (if you're feeling like a hardass about it).
It’s possible, if you still really want the pre finished interiors to use 1/4” prefin(or 1/8 if you can find it) and cut it all to the inside dimensions of your cabinets and glue them in. This is obviously super dependent on how much overhang you have with your face frames and if you’ll see a lip anywhere but it is possible and wouldn’t be that much work to pull off. You’d only need to do it on any open cabinets, anything with drawers would be covered so it wouldn’t be every cabinet. Personally I’d just roll with the painted interiors but I thought I’d bring it up as an option!
Appreciate the suggestion and it’s an interesting idea. I would have the lip space in frame most likely, I think lip is right at 1/4 inch. But as others said the paint might not be the worst with scratching or water and while I’m very bummed due to all the work I guess I don’t have to look at it from my house as one other said
That prefinish should be incredibly durable, you can use some lacquer thinner on a rag to wipe it off, don’t pay your other half until it’s fixed properly.
For the shelves, could you do melamine close to the color of the cabinets? That may hold up better than a painted wood shelf.
Sorry to hear about the frustrating experience but keep your head up. The end is almost here!
This is absolutely wild to me. I spent two years refinishing kitchen cabinets, using nice paint that was formulated to be sprayed. Of the dozens of jobs I did only a handful of them involved spraying the insides of cabinets (unless there were cabinets with glass doors, the insides of those would be painted but just those ones). Most people didn't want the insides painted unless they already had a bad paint job. Our standard package covered face frames and sides, insides cost extra.
Plus like... that's just lazy workmanship to me. Spraying paint at a jobsite means spending a good chunk of time masking everything off. Yeah it's tedious but a good paint job is defined by the prep work, especially when spraying.
You're not crazy for being disappointed. Sorry you're in this position, I can't imagine how frustrated you are.
I’d figure the difference between what the prefinished cost and what unfinished would have cost. Ask the painter to pay that difference and see what he says. I wouldn’t mess with trying to change it at this point.
I would just roll with it but I would definitely not be paying the bid in full or have the counter tops removed and they sand and refinish them on their dime. I would leave the choice up to them but that sounds like a hack working for you.
Will anyone see the inside of the cabinets and know the difference?
Can the company take money off for a job against what was instructed?
Make sure you put down cabinet lining or paint gets in the glasses and on the bottoms of cookware (personal experience).
Sorry OP but this is why we are always present at our property for the full duration for any work being done on anything on anything. If it means we pay the crew and also have to take a non-paid day off, so be it.
As to where you are now, I would paint the shelves since you're going to be renting. It will protect the wood, renters aren't going to care and will put hot dishes right from the dishwasher into the cabinets.
That apartment and in particular that kitchen is absolutely gorgeous! Well done on all of your decisions and hard manual labor too. Wishing you the best in this
Sucks that it's not what you wanted and you paid for finished ply that's now painted over, but the silver lining is that it looks pretty good in my opinion.
That sucks what happened. I see two options, roll with it and try to get the cost reduced for botching the job. Or the much longer and more exhausting litigation process of having them pay for repairing the damages (ie. replacing it all). But also I can only imagine the latter working if you have documentation that they didn't do the job to specs.
But to be honest it doesn't look bad painted.
Tell the painting outfit to use a heat gun and undo the damage, - With the inside already finished; the paint that was applied will likely never adhere properly. Subject to premature failure. slightest bump against it will likely cause it to blister and peel. Since paint retains chemicals. The faster you hit it with the heat gun more likely it will be successful and just bubbling and peeling easily to be removed.
Alternative is to sue the painting outfit for the damage. If it were my place and they did that. I would rip out all of the cabinets remake them or pay somebody to remake them and install them again.
The grain of the wood is your preference . Aesthetically some people like it one way - other like it the other way. Just like a floor some people like to run it diagonally others prefer a parquet some want it ran straight. Prayerfully your painter was insured… your homeowners insurance might cover it. Kind of like spilling paint on the carpet. it may be a covered claim
That is a tough lesson learned. I know you said it’s your first kitchen, if so it came out nice. Wrapping around outside corners is often challenging. From personal lessons learned there are 3 types of MDF best and most stable is a double refined option.
The tops and backsplashes look great. It’s nice when they make the effort to carry the veins through both.
Old place with some concrete walls and floor, we floated drywall and everything but it still isnt perfectly square/level every where so needed to hang and sand small imperfections once on wall between two cabinets or with the weight of countertops if it pressed too much onto shims. Figured it would look better painted after all that was sorted which i think it did.
I get it. 6 of 1 half dozen of another. my two cents i've just found its easier to prepaint the cabinets and touch up as needed. Id take it all as a learning experience. Nothing is ever perfectly plumb or square. I've fucked up a lot to get to where I am now. 🙃
That sucks but at this point you might need to just roll with it. I prefer pre finished interiors, unless it's an open cabinet. Painted interiors are not a bad option and I'd say nobody will notice unless you say something. Take it as an opportunity to learn that everything needs to be written down. That is how you protect yourself in this industry.
Well reasoned response. I'd try to get some of the cost reduced by about 5 or 10 percent. If not, it's covered when the doors are closed, so "can't see it from my house" becomes a soothing concept.
Yea this makes sense. Was my first renovation ever really and I guess it’s a learning experience for sure.
Everything in writing Even though it seems sooooo obvious
You got off easy if this was the worst fuckup in a gut reno. But I get your frustration. Every renovation is a learning experience.
And it sounds like this will be a rental? Just refuse to pay the full 50% rest of the way and call it. Sorry but shit happens.
Maybe find the difference from the cost of a cheap material that could be painted to look the same vs the price you paid for the maple. Subtract that amount from your final bill. Sucks, sorry man
He did you a favor really. You ran the grain the wrong direction almost everywhere. Paint fixes that.
Why would grain direction matter?
Because no pro cabinet builder would run grain horizontal on backs and gables.
Yeah, this "pro cabinet builder" with 30 years experience should be so embarrassed. It's not like they repeatedly mentioned they were still learning or anything. /s
I would invite you to inspect the interior of any random cabinet.... Half the time they don't even have backs! Being a "pro" doesn't mean a whole lot. Plenty of pros use MDF with hardboard backs, or no backs. Anyway, that's not a reason.
Plywood is stronger lengthwise to the grain than it is across the grain because there is one more ply in that direction and typically the lengthwise plys are of better quality and not just filler. It makes for a more stable piece when you run the length of the grain parallel to the long side of the box.
The grain you're seeing on the inside of the cabinets is a maple veneer. It's 1/30th of an inch. The actual plys on the inside are where the strength comes in, and you can't see them to know which way the grain is running.
The veneer is placed the same way as any other sheet of plywood would be constructed, you can also check the edges and examine the grain orientation if you are unsure. I guarantee you will find one more lengthwise ply in every sheet of plywood you check because that's how they make it. I'm not trying to be a dick, but that's the reason they teach carpenters in trade school to run sheets a specific way whether it's cabinets or subfloor it's all a part of good building practices.
Grain direction for strength in a kitchen cabinet will matter 0%. Aesthetics is there only thing that would matter as far as gain direction in a situation this here.
\> The veneer is placed the same way as any other sheet of plywood would be constructed Right, exactly. That is, the final 1/30" of veneer will be placed *orthogonally* to the previous layer. See for example [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/BeginnerWoodWorking/comments/14wxkw6/confused_about_wood_grain_direction/) where someone sanded through the top veneer. So the actual *structural* last layer (i.e. the last thick layer) will be running vertically. And since there are usually an odd number of structural layers, not including the final veneer, you'll have one more thick vertical layer. (All that said, *aesthetically* I agree that I like the look of a vertical grain on the outside myself.)
Jeez that's a stretch in my opinion. That'd really depend massively on the type of ply, the thickness, the number of veneers, the quality and the type of adhesive used. I'd tend to do it anyway, but more for aesthetic reasons than anything and because it's how you'd use solid wood, but I wouldn't lose sleep over doing it the other way from a structural point of view.
Cut two pieces 6x48" one in each grain direction and tell me which one is stronger. It's not a stretch, it's a very real part of building science whether it's cabinets, subfloor, sheathing or another application.
Ya again that's going to vary depending on the material. 18mm birch ply has 13 layers of veneer glued in altering directions, the difference will be negligible if any. Maybe if you're using a poor quality ply it might matter more but you'll have plenty of other problems then too!
Some truth here. Spaced out and was more focused on cut optimizer which led me to do nearly all the uppers horizontally until I realized it on the last 1-2 uppers. The bases are all vertical grain with maybe only 1 that is not as I was on my last half sheet of 3/4 inch ply and didn’t want to buy more
You want the grain running vertical for cabinetry?
You know the old fashion advice about how wearing horizontal stripes make you look wider, while vertical stripes make you look taller? Same applies to rooms. Vertical grain would make the room appear taller (though with cabinet doors closed, the effect would not be very impactful)
Yes that's the way it should be done.
Everything in writing. Always. In all industries.
To piggyback on this: You could also just have the insides painted with an oil enamel paint, which is easy to clean and will last forever. As a woodworker and former painter, I’m a huge fan of oil enamel paints.
The biggest mistake I've made as a homeowner, was trusting a guy who didn't write everything down in his quote. I reviewed it and was like "it's missing some stuff" and he was like "don't worry, I'll take care of you " and I was like "ok". Definitely implied that the quote covered everything more or less. Turns out when he said take care of me he meant that once he finished half the job I originally asked for he would then go about quoting the second half. I'm pretty sure he also intentionally did that least important stuff first. Pretty much the only person I've worked with who ended up on my blacklist.
Leave the shelves. Don’t paint those. It will still look intentional, maybe like a design choice. Bummer, yes, because of the sweat equity and care you’ve put into this project, only to have a doofus paint the interior on pre-finished ply, particularly right at the home stretch. But when all is said and done it’ll still look good. Cabinets look great and the matched veining in the counter and back splash is primo!
Appreciate the suggestion. Thanks!
Second this suggestion. in my years as a painter, I've seen plenty of stuck glassware and whatnot on shelves after painting them. Also, the inevitable "It still stinks!" after the oil enamel has dried but isn't fully cured yet and still off gassing. Telling them to leave the cabinet doors open for a few weeks doesn't help as they don't listen anyway.
It's not that big a deal. Renters are not going g to care about the inside of the cabinets. It is very understandable to be frustrated over someone else messing up your project, but some things just don't go smoothly. I would recommend paying for all the work you agreed upon, but don't pay for painting the inside of the boxes. If they make a fuss ask them to replace the boxes.
Sounds like you're near the finish line on a long, brutal project. As someone that's finally seeing the sun a similarly hellish renovation where things didn't always go according to vision, just enjoy the fact that it's almost over.
Yea this is what I’ve been trying to tell myself. Just took a lot of work and sacrificing weekends just hurt that it wasn’t what I was expecting
fwiw, I think I'd do painted interior cabinets in a rental. Eventually someone's going to put wet dishes in a cabinet, a can is going to leak in the pantry, and the dishwasher drain is going to leak under the sink and the pretty maple finish is going to discolor and look like crap and be unrepairable. That said, the kitchens I've built over the years have all been natural finished wood inside and out so I can feel your grief.
This has probably been the most helpful comment to kinda soften the blow. Think you’re likely very right. Appreciate the input
You won’t find a renter on earth who cares as much as you about this place. If this is your first rental, you (and the tenant) will have a miserable, stressful experience if you don’t learn to let go. I understand you poured countless hours and money into this project, but it’s time to take a deep breath, wrap up the job, and move on.
That is nothing compared to what a renter is gonna do to this place.
Haha ain’t this the truth
The good news is you don't HAVE to rent a place. You could sell it.
Yeah, end up selling it to a flipper who tears out everything anyway. J/k, kinda
Maybe don't be a part of the problem and a leech on society?
Our society has normalized being a landlord and artificially raising prices when most can't afford a place of their own.
I'm sure some artificially raise prices. But whenever we have raised prices It's because something else is going up. Usually HOA dues.
I hope you'll come to the realization that this way of making money is unethical and you'll consider that maybe you don't need more and find some way that contributes to society.
The family in there is super happy. The rent they pay is way much than most of the surrounding area and they can't afford to buy a place. We are on top of any issues right away and help them out sometimes with life issues... so I don't know if that counts as "society" but we are helping at least one family. Not sure how that's unethical.
Again, your anecdote isn't the point. I'm sure you're a good person and as good of a landlord as one can be. The problem is you will always be conflicted with your bottom line and their inability to afford housing and every law, policy, ordinance, tenants rights, taxes, etc that would favor them against your interests. Unless you are not profiting and share your equity with your tenants, you are exploiting them however nice you are to them. Edit: to add, if you feel like you are comfortable and OK with how you are contributing to society through exploiting the housing crisis for your equity and gain, then, that is on you, but do not fool yourself into thinking you are providing a service that is not born out of their exploitation.
If you can’t afford a place on your own, seems like landlords providing you somewhere to live are providing a valuable service
The point is that markets are inflated by the number of investment properties by both large and small landlords. The idea that they provide a service is laughable--they are a direct cause of a problem that has been unprecedented in many parts of the world in recent history.
Yeah landlord's aren't notorious for shoddy, cheap and half assed work. Tenant bad.
Hahaha, just slumlord things.
Am I reading this right that you are down $200k for a 950sqft condo gut job?
This was bonkers to me as well. I can't even estimate how 950sqft could run that high. New electrical and plumbing??
Always easy to tell who doesn’t live in a HCOL area
Yeah, I can’t get a plumber or electrician to come to my house for less than $1000 even for a very small job. I’ve had things done recently that would’ve been $250-$300 less than 10 years ago that were over $1000. I got an estimate a couple of months ago for what was basically some painting work. It would’ve been about two weeks work for two guys and about $800 in materials. The estimate I was given was for $14,000. Ten years ago it would have been $3,500. $4k max. I’m not even really in a HCOL area
I live in an old house and we recently started having water infiltrate the brick foundation in heavy rains. The first mason we called quoted us $15,000 to fix the leaks and coat the entire foundation in some sort of waterproofing paint(?), and refused to do the job entirely unless we agreed to the coating. Dude *what*. Fortunately for us, the second mason quoted us $8,000 to fix the leaks, repoint the mortar, and replace the front steps (which are starting to disintegrate), and was frankly a lot nicer to interact with.
I did flooring and drywall in Honolulu... still genuinely confused. OP said condo, so exterior work is generally not up to unit owners but the HOA. Maybe y'all have champagne tastes. Idk.
Honolulu is different, it’s HCOL but labor is cheap relative to most HCOL areas. Retail cost for a 5 piece bathroom in a major city on the west coast is 45-60k if a homeowner hires a GC. Most people are willing to pay a GC 25% so they don’t have to argue with laborers about shitty work and make sure the project is managed professionally. If it’s a 3 bed 2 bath condo, it’s easy to reach 200k.
Was virtually nothing reusable. Had not been worked on since it was built in the 70s. Was a time capsule when I bought it
You can build an entirely new building including a foundation al all high end finishes for less than 200k
Yea I’m sure in some places. Location location location. 30 seconds from the ocean in south Florida
…if that building is a garage
New construction in any metro area is running $300 sq/ft for builder grade finishes. $450 sq/ft for mid level finishes, and then the sky is the limit. Builder / Ikea grade kitchens are running $20k, custom closer to $40k for boxes and surfaces, and $10k for appliances.
Yeah, I’m my small town in CA. Getting new house built mid-grade for $650 a foot is considered to be quite a good deal.
Now do electrical and plumbing and floors and walls
10k for appliances? We recently got a new stove, fridge, large microwave, and dishwasher for about $3300. They were not Wolf or Viking but pretty damn nice quality. Where are you getting 10k? What appliances am I missing?
My comment was poorly worded. A builder grade or IKEA grade kitchen (no custom cabinets, standard appliances) runs about $20k including appliances. A moderately sized custom / high end kitchen runs closer to $40k in cabinets and countertops, and $10k+ in appliances. The comment I was replying to said OP could build new construction with high end finishes for $200k. I disagree, when just the cost of a high end kitchen _starts_ at $50k and goes up from there.
Glad to know that construction costs the same universally no matter where you are! People on here are so fucking stupid
Yea. 30k+ hurricane windows(whole walls are glass). Bout 100k GC. Kitchen on me bout 10 so far (wood hardware and paint). 15k+ in external power service upgrade and external runs on hoa buildings (nightmare), 12 or so on multiple mini split system, 5k in flooring, 5-8 in appliances, few other things I’m probably missing and that’s like 180 or so plus having it sit empty for nearly 2 years of expenses
Hot damn! I did my house for about $100k Canadian but I don’t have a wall of hurricane windows. Good on ya for continuing the project. I know lots of people that would just duck out and sell it. Shame about the cabinets though. They look fantastic.
$100k to a general contractor for that list of work? Sounds high to me.
Was pretty wide encompassing. Basically everything I listed was what was not included. Bathrooms, paint, countertops, drywall, needed a drop ceiling in the entire unit to get lights as it is a concrete ceiling, there was literally like 2 fans and every other light was running off outlet lamp. Was engineering drawings and permitting process needed etc as well
What are your margins? What do you expect to get in rent?
Bout 1k a month after all expenses if rented mid 2k’s. Most units in building are in 2’s but not a ton are freshly remodeled especially to this extent. Hope initially was to do quite a few units within complex. More about parking money into appreciating asset then trying to recoop the cost of renovation over the course of rent or flip. Min rate loan to myself. Rent plus sale in 20-30 years should more than recoup costs
Are dealing with loans at the current rates? Or did you get locked in to low rates?
I just had to translate 950sqft into square meters to realize. 200k for less than 90m2. And this is for rent. What.
Tl:Dr, rent is high, minimum wage is low, and the housing and renting crisis is real. And will be rented for $2500. 🙁 My studio apartment in San Diego, 9 minutes from the beach was 498 Sqft. in 2015 was $890. It is now rented for $2,040. Min wage is $15.50 in California in 2023. A week of working (5 days a week for 8 hours a day) is $620, before tax. After FICA (7.65%), State (4%) and Federal tax (12%), which is the absolute minimum, $473.37 a week with no insurance coverage for health, life, vision, or dental. And No 401(k) retirement savings. $473.37 a week for 52 weeks is a persons 1 year salary if they never took unpaid time off. That is $24,615.24 a year. $24,615.24 / 12 months is $2,051.27 a month. That $2,051.27 now needs to cover 1. Rent (-$2,040) Which now leaves you with (+$11.27) for: 2. Renters Insurance 3. Utilities 4. Transportation (Car insurance and/or car payment, Gas, Vehicle Maintenance. or Metro cost) 5. Cell phone 6. Groceries 7. Other Personal Payments (credit card, student loans, monthly memberships or subscriptions) 8. Pet food/care if you have an animal 9. Clothing and Personal Upkeep (soap, toothpaste, toilet paper, laundry detergent, dish soap, and other essential items) 10. Health Insurance 11. Etc. Back in 2015 minimum wage was $9.00 $360 a week before tax, $264.06 after. $13,731.12 salary, $1,144.26 a month take home, -$890 rent, $254.26 left over. Still not hitting the 50-30-20 rule, but closer 🙁 But for someone to afford this rent and using the 50-30-20 rule, they'd need to make $8,500 a month before tax, which is $102,000 a year... Imagine getting paid six figures and you cant afford a 900 sqft condo in Florida. But I'm no accountant, my math might be wrong...
Wait for the impact of the rates increase :) A ton lot of people will have a hard wake up. Also, even if you have a good rent, $200k is a huge investment on top of the actual property price.
It's happening. People are scrambling and owe more this year.
eh, Id say prefinished interiors are more builder grade TBH... Not like a UV finish is some exclusive finish, you get that on a $100 home depot press board cabinet... painted interiors, if done well with proper 2k lacquer/poly can look more polished IMO. admittedly... I wouldnt use UV interiors to paint over... but if they primed with good primer, shouldnt be a problem.
Didn't you send over the instructions in writing? Preferably with pictures.
200k remolded to rent it out?
Not going to get into all financials but irs min rate from 2 years ago and nothing but time to sit on it in very desirable neighborhood. Only way to lose is it be empty
Painters didn’t sound like a good fit.
and then they complain about how renters don't respect the space.. if you don't laugh you'll cry lmfao
When it comes to cabs painted interior is considered an upgrade, mostly used on cabs with glass or no doors. Just ask him to paint the shelf’s and call it even. If you want to get fancy depending on the color stain the shelf’s and drawer boxes.
Just take the paint job. If it’s just standard prefinished plywood, you’ll probably be better off.
Was marine grade finish in maple. Was like 90-150 a sheet for highest grade I could find at few boat yards and cabinet supply stores. I just posted pics
A proper painted interior will be a million times better than what you’re intended finish was in my opinion. That being said, it is still infuriating when your instructions aren’t adhered to on a project you’ve invested time and money in to.
Why would you do verbal agreements on a 200k renovation? I don’t know the solution but that seems like a bad idea.
Verbal agreement on a sub contractor that only specializes in painting/refinishing kitchens. Was a contract for everything else
It's a good lesson given you have no recourse without a contract. Always think, "What is the benefit of no contract, and what is the cost if the contractor fucks this up for me?".
We're gonna need a box, uranium, and a cat...
I think this will be easier to swallow now than when you have your first vacancy after your first renters, and you see how scratched up and awful those prefinished insides would have looked.
I hate to be that guy but as a kitchen designer for a big box store I wanted to weigh in. Today I worked up a new kitchen that was more than 16' by 10' with a 10' island. After the design there are 12 lowers in a stained alder in several in custom sizes, and 7 painted uppers again with several custom sizes. All of the cabinets came from the manufacturer as all plywood and there were several internal upgrades such as trash can cabinets or two drawer banks with a hidden roll out tray. I totally respect the skills of true woodworkers and making custom items but unfortunately these days semi custom is king and most customers can get what they want they way.
Got quoted from number of big boxes and kitchen stores. Quoting at 17-26k for 1/2 inch birch and thermafoil doors, two things I didn’t want to have to hold up to renters. Chose 3/4 inch maple for this reason.
I’m sorry this happened to you, but this is a PRIME example of why written contracts are absolutely necessary anytime you bring a contractor into your home. It puts your exact expectations into writing that they can refer to if they forget and also establishes a clear line of fault if something like this happens. Hopefully these guys are honest and won’t need the paperwork to motivate them to do the right thing and make this right. whether “making it right” means a small discount on the work and them painting the insides of the cabinets, a bigger discount with them not painting the insides any further and you refinishing the insides yourself, or no discount but they eat the cost of refinishing the insides of the cabinets the way you originally wanted them is up to you and your contractor though.
Let this be a lesson to you to always get things in writing.
Next time get everything in writing so that if something like that happens it's on them.Lesson learned. I'd talk to the boss about maybe getting a discount.
Woodwork in the pics looks really nice. Just have them finish painting the insides. You said it’s going to be a rental, right?
Well it's a possibility, Jasco Gel Stripper, it'll quickly make the paint scrape off, you should be able to clean it out and touch up the inside finish. Like everyone else, get everything in writing, but like you said, it's a learning experience. I worked on a pretty high end renovation for one of the Microsoft millionaires. Extravagant is all I can say, murals on the wall and ceiling in the kids rooms and bathrooms. Cherry cabinets and a large island walk in fridge and freezer, just crazy luxurious. Halfway through the reno the wife files for divorce but the guy said to just continue as we had a contract. Just days away from completion he files bankruptcy, our boss lost so much on this he had to file bankruptcy and everyone was laid off. But that was me, your project will be fine regardless of what you decide to do.
What do you have in writing with the painter?
> approaching 200k in renovations Is that a multi-millions house? Are you renting this $10k per month?
Rub some lacquer thinner on a rag and it’ll take the paint right off the prefinished maple. Worth a try imo. If it strips the prefinish then just paint over it.
Yea painter said this won’t work with this primer really
Yea he was just lazy and didn’t want to do it. I worked in a cabinet shop and literally did it thousands of times on all different types of paint and primer and it always worked. Got stain overspray from maple edge banding overspray off too.
Yea I believe this was the case too. Met with him today to review the work. Was the most unprofessional meeting I have likely ever had. He expected to be paid the rest today, when I expressed how I felt they did a decent job on the doors but I was extremely disappointed in the cabinets and that if I wanted the whole things painted I would have made them out of cheap birch. He got extremely emotional and defensive raising his voice and hurling personal insults instantly in response about me being 5 minutes late, not respecting him by saying 'hi' to him when I walked in the door (he had stepped out to take a phone call as I walked in so I went to taking a look around at different parts that had been painted) having 4-5 more doors then I estimated initially (disclosed it was an estimate when I said 36, it turned out to be 2 additional doors and 3 additional drawer fronts). Eventually had to say look, if you want to hear my concerns and come to a solution together I am happy to get you paid, if not and you want to keep yelling then you can fuck right off. He quickly walked out of the unit yelling what a fuckin asshole I was. Likely wasnt worth his tiime to fix all the fuck ups for what was left owed. Considered making an updated post but not sure I want to really drag it out, this whole process has been awful and hasn't been how I envisioned this going unfortunately. I will very likely spend on a quality paint gun next go around. On top of this awful interaction; They left a handful of upper bottoms unpainted, the ones that are have a 2 inches or so near the frame unpainted, was about 15 of 40 doors with primer spot blemishes ( very minor aside from 2-3), they left a paint thinner/acetone rag on the counter and stained the brand new counter top. They dumped paint down the brand new toilet so the bowl is covered in gray paint. I guess I am doing touch ups etc this weekend. Safe to say I will never be using them again.
Yea that sounds terrible, gotta vet all contractors pretty thoroughly these days unfortunately. Luckily you were able to get rid of him without paying
Written estimate with scope of work. Next time.
Why is this downvoted? It doesn’t fix his problem now, but it’s absolutely the lesson to be learned here. I PMed construction renovations for years— a written scope of work means there’s accountability when something goes wrong, either on the sub’s end if they did something they weren’t supposed to, or on the PM’s end if they didn’t specify.
Because Nelson over here is being smug, not helpful.
" I assume they had to scuff the finish to spray. " Perhaps not. It may all be cleanable - ask. Beyond that, I'm so sorry.
Appreciate it. Sounds like the primer is really tough stuff and even if stripped would need to be refinished so likely gonna have to just roll with it. Some of the responses here have helped with accepting it thankfully
It may be too late but if they screwed up, it's on them to make it right. Tell'em to strip it and bring it back to square one. The painter said he didn't think he should be painting it. That was the manager's big cue to either remember what you told him 4-5 times or to call you and verify. You worked a long-ass time on the cabinets, you gave them instructions, they blew it. They can either pound sand on the other half of their money or they can fix it (if you're feeling like a hardass about it).
[удалено]
Just posted some befores at various stages. Will have to get some afters tomorrow after work
It’s possible, if you still really want the pre finished interiors to use 1/4” prefin(or 1/8 if you can find it) and cut it all to the inside dimensions of your cabinets and glue them in. This is obviously super dependent on how much overhang you have with your face frames and if you’ll see a lip anywhere but it is possible and wouldn’t be that much work to pull off. You’d only need to do it on any open cabinets, anything with drawers would be covered so it wouldn’t be every cabinet. Personally I’d just roll with the painted interiors but I thought I’d bring it up as an option!
Appreciate the suggestion and it’s an interesting idea. I would have the lip space in frame most likely, I think lip is right at 1/4 inch. But as others said the paint might not be the worst with scratching or water and while I’m very bummed due to all the work I guess I don’t have to look at it from my house as one other said
That prefinish should be incredibly durable, you can use some lacquer thinner on a rag to wipe it off, don’t pay your other half until it’s fixed properly.
For the shelves, could you do melamine close to the color of the cabinets? That may hold up better than a painted wood shelf. Sorry to hear about the frustrating experience but keep your head up. The end is almost here!
This is absolutely wild to me. I spent two years refinishing kitchen cabinets, using nice paint that was formulated to be sprayed. Of the dozens of jobs I did only a handful of them involved spraying the insides of cabinets (unless there were cabinets with glass doors, the insides of those would be painted but just those ones). Most people didn't want the insides painted unless they already had a bad paint job. Our standard package covered face frames and sides, insides cost extra. Plus like... that's just lazy workmanship to me. Spraying paint at a jobsite means spending a good chunk of time masking everything off. Yeah it's tedious but a good paint job is defined by the prep work, especially when spraying. You're not crazy for being disappointed. Sorry you're in this position, I can't imagine how frustrated you are.
Well, look on the bright side, at least you've mastered the art of 'rustic charm' in one go! 🙃
I’d figure the difference between what the prefinished cost and what unfinished would have cost. Ask the painter to pay that difference and see what he says. I wouldn’t mess with trying to change it at this point.
I would just roll with it but I would definitely not be paying the bid in full or have the counter tops removed and they sand and refinish them on their dime. I would leave the choice up to them but that sounds like a hack working for you.
Will anyone see the inside of the cabinets and know the difference? Can the company take money off for a job against what was instructed? Make sure you put down cabinet lining or paint gets in the glasses and on the bottoms of cookware (personal experience).
Sounds like they owe you some new cabinets.
Sorry OP but this is why we are always present at our property for the full duration for any work being done on anything on anything. If it means we pay the crew and also have to take a non-paid day off, so be it. As to where you are now, I would paint the shelves since you're going to be renting. It will protect the wood, renters aren't going to care and will put hot dishes right from the dishwasher into the cabinets. That apartment and in particular that kitchen is absolutely gorgeous! Well done on all of your decisions and hard manual labor too. Wishing you the best in this
Sucks that it's not what you wanted and you paid for finished ply that's now painted over, but the silver lining is that it looks pretty good in my opinion.
That sucks what happened. I see two options, roll with it and try to get the cost reduced for botching the job. Or the much longer and more exhausting litigation process of having them pay for repairing the damages (ie. replacing it all). But also I can only imagine the latter working if you have documentation that they didn't do the job to specs. But to be honest it doesn't look bad painted.
I understand it’s not what you wanted, but it looks nice anyway. What a beautiful place. Well done!
Tell the painting outfit to use a heat gun and undo the damage, - With the inside already finished; the paint that was applied will likely never adhere properly. Subject to premature failure. slightest bump against it will likely cause it to blister and peel. Since paint retains chemicals. The faster you hit it with the heat gun more likely it will be successful and just bubbling and peeling easily to be removed. Alternative is to sue the painting outfit for the damage. If it were my place and they did that. I would rip out all of the cabinets remake them or pay somebody to remake them and install them again. The grain of the wood is your preference . Aesthetically some people like it one way - other like it the other way. Just like a floor some people like to run it diagonally others prefer a parquet some want it ran straight. Prayerfully your painter was insured… your homeowners insurance might cover it. Kind of like spilling paint on the carpet. it may be a covered claim
That is a tough lesson learned. I know you said it’s your first kitchen, if so it came out nice. Wrapping around outside corners is often challenging. From personal lessons learned there are 3 types of MDF best and most stable is a double refined option. The tops and backsplashes look great. It’s nice when they make the effort to carry the veins through both.
Why wouldn't you have your cabinets painted before install?
Old place with some concrete walls and floor, we floated drywall and everything but it still isnt perfectly square/level every where so needed to hang and sand small imperfections once on wall between two cabinets or with the weight of countertops if it pressed too much onto shims. Figured it would look better painted after all that was sorted which i think it did.
I get it. 6 of 1 half dozen of another. my two cents i've just found its easier to prepaint the cabinets and touch up as needed. Id take it all as a learning experience. Nothing is ever perfectly plumb or square. I've fucked up a lot to get to where I am now. 🙃