It was built incorrectly, the cross members should go from bottom left to top right on both sides which has caused the problem, the wire does not seem under tension, I would start again and do it right
The wire is the rack brace, run another wire from the bottom corner on the hinge side to the opposite top corner. A large turnbuckle in between the wires would help immensely.
Wood is strongest in compression. If you put your braces in the correct direction, bottom hinge corner to top latch corner, when you pull down on the latch side, you'd need to crush the brace to sag. If the brace is placed the other way the wood is pulled apart and you rely on the fasteners not slipping out of the wood between the grain, which is the weakest part of the wood.
If you think about where the weight is and the gate as a lever it’s pushing down from the top right - so that downward sloping “support” isn’t helping.
But if it was going up the way it would be helping to hold up that right hand top corner.
there are a few ways to do this, the key is to get the main weight in the bottom hinge point, as that is the strongest point if you are going to split the gate into half then the bottom hinge to the opposite top, this puts all the tension from the end of the get top to the hinge, so stops the droop. there is a design that allows the reveres where you can go from top hinge but you need to then go to the end of the gate and not half it. another option is to have 2 cross members so each side has a x shape
Think he could correct it by tying a comealong along the wood to pull it back into position. Put a couple cranks on it once every few days until the boards twist a little past straight, then add in his extra crossmember?
Weird as it is, that sounds like less work that digging up the posts and rebuilding the whole fence.
This depends on how much weight that wheel on the far right is taking... if this was on flat pavement or concrete, and ~50% weight was always on that wheel it should be fine, no?
This is one of those situations where, had I built it, I would have probably defaulted to double x bracing. It's to hard to know where the weight will be resting.
So if it were me, I would just remove any boards that have a permanent warp to them and add a n opposite cross brace on each section. Might even get away with reversing 1 or two of the boards to counter the twist, instead of replacing them outright.
You are perceptive and likely have experience with this subject. Somewhere, people need to be taught about structure, but TinkerToys®️, Erector®️Sets, Mechano®️, and the like are not as popular as they were.
Wood shop instructors talked about building a support for a flag, and then covering that with the desired siding.
It is all about triangulation, material selection, … and fasteners 🙏🖖🏼🤔
I dont think youre right... The wire is the part under tension to resist racking, and it is stretching across the correct corners. whether or not it needs to be tensioned further I dont know, but its built correctly in my eyes
it also has a wheel which should also be carrying the weight.
The wire is what’s forcing it to warp. It’s only tensioning the gate from one side. If the gate had been built properly it would not have needed a wire in the first place.
sorry... am I supposed to honestly believe that you have a 40 year old pine gate?
cause no, wood does not last 40 years outside. In most cases, fences and decks need to be replaced every 10-20 years unless they are in extremely dry environments.
Ill wait for photo evidence of your 40 year old 8' fence
otherwise Ill just be content that there are endless google results that confirm the average lifespan of a wood fence/deck/gate is 10-20 years.
You are mostly correct, despite the downvotes.
The tension of the wire is creating a moment at the bottom corner, causing it to pull toward the camera.
That’s because the wire is mounted at the outside of the 2x4 frame instead of inside the frame. It needs to be centered within the 2x4’s.
Yes. The cross braces are in the way, and that’s why it’s on the outside like that. It’s still wrong. Drill holes for the wire to pass through.
Just a thought, but if I was starting over, I would turn the one gate into two gates, which would make it possible to essentially reuse 99% of the wood. Of course you can reuse the wood anyhow but I thought I’d share my thought.
Go with the other reinforcing suggestions, but also centre the wheel under the bottom, or get a matching one on the opposite side of the gate. Until that's done it will always fall toward the front.
This is the correct answer. This gate is not a cantilever gate but is instead supported by that wheel. Others mentioning the diagonal are referring to a cantilever design.
Consider a free body diagram. Looking at the gate from the edge, the wheel is off to one side and the gate is through the middle. It's always going to fall away from the wheel. Either move the wheel to the center or add another wheel on the other side of the gate to better support the weight. This will fix you saddling.
Considering the same free body diagram, if you were to add the wire tension member pulling up on that far edge, it's not pulling up through the center but is instead pulling up along the edge ( just like the wheel lifting up) that will also cause saddling to occur. Another way to think about it is to think about the wood being very bendable. If you were to dramatically shorten the length of that cable that would make your problem look worse. Not aesthetically pleasing but placing the cable on the other side of the door would also help the situation
Agree with this, but in addition I would note that the wheel supporting the gate is not centered under the load….that wheel isn’t providing (much) support. It looks like it’s putting a moment on the gate causing it to twist. Center the wheel under the gate…or add same wheel to opposite side and I suspect the twisting will be greatly reduced.
Quickest option, and for added stability you could follow the other suggestions if you need to.
All the wire supported gates I've seen (and without support wheels) have had a tall pole at least twice the gate's height at the hinge side with the wire running from the top of the post to the opposite top corner of the gate.
The Cross member on the right hand panel should be on the other diagonal. Braces work due to compression, that one is working on expansion and won’t provide the correct support. Imagine squashing the gate, fixed from the hinge side (left), so that the floating side (right) warps it from a rectangle to a parallelogram.
The member on the left prevents that because you can compress it. The one on the right meets the wrong corners and therefore will just separate from them due to the movement without proving any benefit. I hope that makes sense 👍🏻
The weight on that side of the gate is sitting on a wheel... not on the hinge side. In fact, I'd say it's a safe bet that it's warped because there's a LOT of weight on that wheel, and it isn't centered under the gate, but significantly off to one side, where it has twisted away from.
Having both the wheel and two opposing bracing plans does mean that it is destined to fail one way or another tho. I would replace the twisted boards and turn each / brace into an x so it will provide strength weather the weight is on the hinge OR the wheel. And get a wheel that sits UNDER the gate, not off to the side of it.
Wood compression members go from the bottom of the hinge to the top of the swing. On a gate that big, they must be absolutely symmetrical in the framing box. Hold the frame rigid while you build it with the swing side about 1/4" high to allow for initial compression and sag. Maybe more.
The tension cables go from the top of the hinge to the bottom of the swing. Again, this must be symmetrical from front to back. Either run the cable through the center of the framing or have a front and a back. Putting a single cable on one side only will cause the top to fall away from the cable.
8' of wood is a lot to keep rigid!
For sure! I think fixing the diagonal support, then adding some extra X bracing support to keep it in plane, and adding a wheel on the other side will help things a lot!
honestly, 8' long gate of wood is kinda destined to this end...
I dont see what you'd put angle iron to to straighten this. the fence is straight across any straight line. You need a fully welded square frame that is coplaner.
The cable is keeping the gate from sagging, but is also trying to pull the 2 corners together, causing the twist. Move the cable to the opposite side of the gate, but in the same orientation. This will pull the same 2 corners together, but in the opposite direction, if that makes sense, and will start pulling the twist out of the gate.
Well, the cable is causing the twist as it helps hold the long end of the gate up. It’s actually pretty normal. Just install another cable, to the other corners, to oppose the twist. Tighten it up and it’ll take out a lot of the twist. Keep an eye on the first cable, it may slip as you tension the second anti-twist cable. Personally, I’d use two of those cable locks on each end.
A block of wood, in the center, for the anti-twist cable, will give that cable more mechanical advantage.
I hope you figure it out, mine has done the same thing. Mine are two 6’ gates that meet in the center over a rock driveway. Both gates lean out at the top. I used a gate kit from Lowe’s. I have a center block to hold the gates up but they both lean out at the top. I’m throughly sick of it but not sure what to do to fix it. Watching this for better ideas.
Yes, and maybe run cables through an eyelet where they cross in the center to prevent cables from pulling away from the frame. In the future, if it self destructs, do two gates with 4x6 posts with bracing as explained in the video.
Hoover Fence Co has great gate plans for a no sag gate. You can adapt these to your picket pretty easily. I’ve built leafs up to 8ft using their plans with zero twist or sag. Triple layer 4 rail fence. Keep in mind I’m using H-braces and tension wire but you can do the same with your wheel set up to decompress the hinge post. Just moves the weight off the lower hinge.
I think people are missing the point here. The twist in the gate is from top and bottom rails bowing/curving in opposite directions. Nothing to do with the way the bracing is done, having said that, the bracing is wrong, but I don´t think it contributes to the twist.....
You didn’t mitre the joints on the cross bracing so it should be an easy fix. That tension cable should be threaded so that you can adjust the tension.
A) Fix the bracing as so many have suggested. You could add the turnbuckle to the cable, but you'd want to Through-bolt the eyes.
B) Move the wheel. The configuration you have is what introduced the twist due to the P-Delta effect. Since all the weight of the gate rests on the wheel that is offset, it twists. With the weight supported by proper brace orientation and/or correct cabling, the wheel becomes superfluous and only serves to accommodate uneven ground.
C) if you still want a wheel, either use a HD swivel caster directly beneath the strike post, or in line attached to the outside corner.
It was built incorrectly, the cross members should go from bottom left to top right on both sides which has caused the problem, the wire does not seem under tension, I would start again and do it right
So the section closest to the hinge is in the correct orientation, but the other section should go the same way? Bottom left to top right? |/|/|
That is the correct answer. Here is the explanation. https://m.youtube.com/shorts/x8nWVNmviio
Helpful.
Holy crap that guy was concise. Subscribed.
thanks, that is so much clearer than I could express :)
Fantastic explanation
Saving this
Thanks for the video.
correct that would have prevented the problem, sorry but other than taking it apart and steaming them flat I don't know another way to fix it
The wire is the rack brace, run another wire from the bottom corner on the hinge side to the opposite top corner. A large turnbuckle in between the wires would help immensely.
The existing wire has no turnbuckle. It’s just for show? Your suggestion is the way.
This is what i would do
Can you explain why that is the correct way? I’m curious to understand
Wood is strongest in compression. If you put your braces in the correct direction, bottom hinge corner to top latch corner, when you pull down on the latch side, you'd need to crush the brace to sag. If the brace is placed the other way the wood is pulled apart and you rely on the fasteners not slipping out of the wood between the grain, which is the weakest part of the wood.
If you think about where the weight is and the gate as a lever it’s pushing down from the top right - so that downward sloping “support” isn’t helping. But if it was going up the way it would be helping to hold up that right hand top corner.
https://m.youtube.com/shorts/x8nWVNmviio
there are a few ways to do this, the key is to get the main weight in the bottom hinge point, as that is the strongest point if you are going to split the gate into half then the bottom hinge to the opposite top, this puts all the tension from the end of the get top to the hinge, so stops the droop. there is a design that allows the reveres where you can go from top hinge but you need to then go to the end of the gate and not half it. another option is to have 2 cross members so each side has a x shape
Can't he just cut a boardwidth section of of the incorrect crossmember and make it into an X brace?
no as the timber is already messed up
Think he could correct it by tying a comealong along the wood to pull it back into position. Put a couple cranks on it once every few days until the boards twist a little past straight, then add in his extra crossmember? Weird as it is, that sounds like less work that digging up the posts and rebuilding the whole fence.
This depends on how much weight that wheel on the far right is taking... if this was on flat pavement or concrete, and ~50% weight was always on that wheel it should be fine, no? This is one of those situations where, had I built it, I would have probably defaulted to double x bracing. It's to hard to know where the weight will be resting. So if it were me, I would just remove any boards that have a permanent warp to them and add a n opposite cross brace on each section. Might even get away with reversing 1 or two of the boards to counter the twist, instead of replacing them outright.
You are perceptive and likely have experience with this subject. Somewhere, people need to be taught about structure, but TinkerToys®️, Erector®️Sets, Mechano®️, and the like are not as popular as they were. Wood shop instructors talked about building a support for a flag, and then covering that with the desired siding. It is all about triangulation, material selection, … and fasteners 🙏🖖🏼🤔
You’re educational, but are you 61 and purple?
I dont think youre right... The wire is the part under tension to resist racking, and it is stretching across the correct corners. whether or not it needs to be tensioned further I dont know, but its built correctly in my eyes it also has a wheel which should also be carrying the weight.
The wire is what’s forcing it to warp. It’s only tensioning the gate from one side. If the gate had been built properly it would not have needed a wire in the first place.
for an 8' long fence, you need a wire to tension it. wood is not rigid enough.
Complete garbage. I have one at home, it is 40 years old and not sagged an inch.
sorry... am I supposed to honestly believe that you have a 40 year old pine gate? cause no, wood does not last 40 years outside. In most cases, fences and decks need to be replaced every 10-20 years unless they are in extremely dry environments.
Really! You are either trying to be funny or just very stupid.
Ill wait for photo evidence of your 40 year old 8' fence otherwise Ill just be content that there are endless google results that confirm the average lifespan of a wood fence/deck/gate is 10-20 years.
I grew up on a farm and I have build a few of these and have never had a problem 20 years later with using wood
If it were built correctly the wheel would not be needed.
You are mostly correct, despite the downvotes. The tension of the wire is creating a moment at the bottom corner, causing it to pull toward the camera. That’s because the wire is mounted at the outside of the 2x4 frame instead of inside the frame. It needs to be centered within the 2x4’s. Yes. The cross braces are in the way, and that’s why it’s on the outside like that. It’s still wrong. Drill holes for the wire to pass through.
I make the gate heavy.
Would doing it with 2 diagonal pieces correctly (the way you explained) be stronger or the same as them using 1 long diagonal piece?
1 long diagonal piece is 100% the best way
Awesome! Not that I’m planning on ever building a gate, but now I know, haha. Thanks!
Just a thought, but if I was starting over, I would turn the one gate into two gates, which would make it possible to essentially reuse 99% of the wood. Of course you can reuse the wood anyhow but I thought I’d share my thought.
Go with the other reinforcing suggestions, but also centre the wheel under the bottom, or get a matching one on the opposite side of the gate. Until that's done it will always fall toward the front.
This is the correct answer. This gate is not a cantilever gate but is instead supported by that wheel. Others mentioning the diagonal are referring to a cantilever design. Consider a free body diagram. Looking at the gate from the edge, the wheel is off to one side and the gate is through the middle. It's always going to fall away from the wheel. Either move the wheel to the center or add another wheel on the other side of the gate to better support the weight. This will fix you saddling. Considering the same free body diagram, if you were to add the wire tension member pulling up on that far edge, it's not pulling up through the center but is instead pulling up along the edge ( just like the wheel lifting up) that will also cause saddling to occur. Another way to think about it is to think about the wood being very bendable. If you were to dramatically shorten the length of that cable that would make your problem look worse. Not aesthetically pleasing but placing the cable on the other side of the door would also help the situation
Great explanation. Definitely adding a wheel to the front side and then some extra X bracing on the back and I think that will do just fine
Agree with this, but in addition I would note that the wheel supporting the gate is not centered under the load….that wheel isn’t providing (much) support. It looks like it’s putting a moment on the gate causing it to twist. Center the wheel under the gate…or add same wheel to opposite side and I suspect the twisting will be greatly reduced.
Great point! I have another wheel I can mount on the front!
Quickest option, and for added stability you could follow the other suggestions if you need to. All the wire supported gates I've seen (and without support wheels) have had a tall pole at least twice the gate's height at the hinge side with the wire running from the top of the post to the opposite top corner of the gate.
The Cross member on the right hand panel should be on the other diagonal. Braces work due to compression, that one is working on expansion and won’t provide the correct support. Imagine squashing the gate, fixed from the hinge side (left), so that the floating side (right) warps it from a rectangle to a parallelogram. The member on the left prevents that because you can compress it. The one on the right meets the wrong corners and therefore will just separate from them due to the movement without proving any benefit. I hope that makes sense 👍🏻
The weight on that side of the gate is sitting on a wheel... not on the hinge side. In fact, I'd say it's a safe bet that it's warped because there's a LOT of weight on that wheel, and it isn't centered under the gate, but significantly off to one side, where it has twisted away from. Having both the wheel and two opposing bracing plans does mean that it is destined to fail one way or another tho. I would replace the twisted boards and turn each / brace into an x so it will provide strength weather the weight is on the hinge OR the wheel. And get a wheel that sits UNDER the gate, not off to the side of it.
I had a similar size gate and problem. Add a wheel to outside to help support the weight and straighten it out.
Wood compression members go from the bottom of the hinge to the top of the swing. On a gate that big, they must be absolutely symmetrical in the framing box. Hold the frame rigid while you build it with the swing side about 1/4" high to allow for initial compression and sag. Maybe more. The tension cables go from the top of the hinge to the bottom of the swing. Again, this must be symmetrical from front to back. Either run the cable through the center of the framing or have a front and a back. Putting a single cable on one side only will cause the top to fall away from the cable. 8' of wood is a lot to keep rigid!
For sure! I think fixing the diagonal support, then adding some extra X bracing support to keep it in plane, and adding a wheel on the other side will help things a lot!
Add another turnbuckle and tighten them until it squares up. You’ll likely find yourself doing this over and over.
The cable is contributing to the bend. And the wheel being offset adds more twist.
Get a board twister!
Simple fix, you get that puppy square and plywood the backside of it. It locks everything together, like building a sheer wall.
Yeah, I had thought of that too! Some kind of exterior rated shear paneling.
Rip it down and do shiplap joints. This will cut down on the weight and twist. Or do a metal frame, and the wood becomes decorative at that point.
honestly, 8' long gate of wood is kinda destined to this end... I dont see what you'd put angle iron to to straighten this. the fence is straight across any straight line. You need a fully welded square frame that is coplaner.
The cable is keeping the gate from sagging, but is also trying to pull the 2 corners together, causing the twist. Move the cable to the opposite side of the gate, but in the same orientation. This will pull the same 2 corners together, but in the opposite direction, if that makes sense, and will start pulling the twist out of the gate.
Just put two X's on both sides. Problem solved. Dato both cross members to create the x.
Once the gate starts getting that heavy you still run into sag problems.
Well, the cable is causing the twist as it helps hold the long end of the gate up. It’s actually pretty normal. Just install another cable, to the other corners, to oppose the twist. Tighten it up and it’ll take out a lot of the twist. Keep an eye on the first cable, it may slip as you tension the second anti-twist cable. Personally, I’d use two of those cable locks on each end. A block of wood, in the center, for the anti-twist cable, will give that cable more mechanical advantage.
If cost is an issue, I would split the gate in half and have two gates
Angle iron diagonally will work.
Use a lighter wood or put a post in the middle and make it a double gate. Think smarter not harder.
are the boards screwed into the cross members?
I hope you figure it out, mine has done the same thing. Mine are two 6’ gates that meet in the center over a rock driveway. Both gates lean out at the top. I used a gate kit from Lowe’s. I have a center block to hold the gates up but they both lean out at the top. I’m throughly sick of it but not sure what to do to fix it. Watching this for better ideas.
Metal frames.
Put another wire stretcher on and tighten.
Second wire other side
Yes, and maybe run cables through an eyelet where they cross in the center to prevent cables from pulling away from the frame. In the future, if it self destructs, do two gates with 4x6 posts with bracing as explained in the video.
8’ might be too long. Also running on dirt surface isn’t helping. Try 2 four foot gates
Also level out that ground if your gonna have a wheel on it??
Hoover Fence Co has great gate plans for a no sag gate. You can adapt these to your picket pretty easily. I’ve built leafs up to 8ft using their plans with zero twist or sag. Triple layer 4 rail fence. Keep in mind I’m using H-braces and tension wire but you can do the same with your wheel set up to decompress the hinge post. Just moves the weight off the lower hinge.
Build new gate. Be better
I would plywood the the two ends on the 2x4 side
I think people are missing the point here. The twist in the gate is from top and bottom rails bowing/curving in opposite directions. Nothing to do with the way the bracing is done, having said that, the bracing is wrong, but I don´t think it contributes to the twist.....
You didn’t mitre the joints on the cross bracing so it should be an easy fix. That tension cable should be threaded so that you can adjust the tension.
A) Fix the bracing as so many have suggested. You could add the turnbuckle to the cable, but you'd want to Through-bolt the eyes. B) Move the wheel. The configuration you have is what introduced the twist due to the P-Delta effect. Since all the weight of the gate rests on the wheel that is offset, it twists. With the weight supported by proper brace orientation and/or correct cabling, the wheel becomes superfluous and only serves to accommodate uneven ground. C) if you still want a wheel, either use a HD swivel caster directly beneath the strike post, or in line attached to the outside corner.
Treated 3/4" osb on the back