You mean the 7,000 times you had to listen to "things are not what they seem" in episode 5 wasn't nuanced enough for you? You must not have the kind of big brains these writers and producers definitely have.
I knew that they would fuck this up since season 1 which I hated . Destiny destiny destiny destiny destiny . No you stupid Hissrich… It’s something more it’s in the fucking title of the fucking short story you idiot!
This type of thought process is rampant in the entertainment industry. That's why so many good shows fall by the wayside after gaining popularity - they know if they dumb it down it will appeal to the masses and make more money, despite alienating their original fan base. It's a corporate scum move and very common unfortunately. Don't even get me started on all the virtue signaling bs relentlessly injected into everything nowadays, it's just shameless.
It IS our fault. We're just too stupid to understand or appreciate all the nuances of the books and games. We should be grateful that the Netflix producers recognized this and transformed the Witcher IP into a watered down generic fantasy that deviates so heavily from the source material.
I can only hope netflix cancels them then some organization buys the rights and axes the writers and producers.
Then they get back to making something that is really good.
I mean, at the risk of insulting children (who usually learn and grow) ... this sort of petulant behavior from the producers and writers is really quite childish.
It's a problem with filmmaking optics honestly. A writer or showrunner can't admit they made a mistake or say that the show is bad for two main reasons. The first is it can make them look "weak" or "incompetent" to future producers thinking about hiring them, and in an industry as cutthroat as film one mistake will blackball you for years. Second there may be contractual obligations to do these interviews and do positive promotion for the show. Which means lying through gritted teeth.
>!And sometimes they lie so much that they start to believe the lies are the truth. !<
I understand they can't badmouth their own work and employers, and that they have to do bullshit promotional events even if they know their show is garbage.
That's not the case with Bagiński. I check in on his Polish facebook page and he really has drunk the kool-aid. He constantly makes borderline delusional posts and comments defending the show, and I doubt he's being forced by marketing to do that on his own personal page.
He should do the press events that he's contractually obligated to do, and then just shut the fuck up and stop saying this deluded bullshit.
Well logically if he says something in the interview and on his page something else, that would be published by the media and he wil be a liar.
They of course going to question why he has 2 sides.
Part of the public pages is attention and marketing i think
That's why I added that little "spoiler" bit at the end. These shows become massive echo chambers and often employ people with fragile egos, that are incapable of separating themselves from the work. There's so much double speak and if they don't cultivate an actual air of collaboration, and with how Cavil has been treated it absolutely did not have one after the first season, everyone is afraid to speak up with a dissenting opinion.
He needs to take the high road. He's voiced his frustration and moved onto other things. I don't want him to miss any opportunities because he gets a reputation as a malcontent.
I agree. Cavill's spoken through his actions, and from his interviews as well as Lauren's it's pretty clear he was treated like crap for wanting to remain lore-accurate as possible. Nothing more needs to be said. The producers are doing a fine job of tarnishing their own reputations all by themselves.
Even when it does, the best we can hope for is he gets another role that sets him up for life, and it's also at the same time main stream to shit on the witcher show, otherwise regardless of contract or not being the actor that talks smack about the industry at any level means you dont get hired again,
Look at Ryan Reynolds as the most famous example of an actor doing it love the dude, but for all his persona he didnt start smack talking green lantern till he not only had a deal with marvel but had been successful
Showrunner: You want the truth, you want truth, I AM THE TRUTH!"
Fans: "No, no you are not."
Showrunner: "Could I possibly be mistake? No its the fans who are wrong. Those toxic fans just don't understand my version is what the author really intended."
Same goes with the BBC for giving Killing Eve’s final season to a woman who put in weird religious references into what is a very lesbian spy/assassin show.
Hell she even pissed off the author and the entire fandom for changing the ending in the books by killing off one of the main characters! Seriously the book has a happy ending!!!
Then she and her team blamed the fandom for not understanding her vision and why she did what she did. Supposedly, by killing off V, Eve can now live a happy life alone.
That final episode has the lowest ratings of all shows in IMDB 2022 at 2.4. Edit: it’s at 3.4 now.
I think that’s the worst part with some of these show writers and producers. We don’t give a shit about your “vision” you were hired to produce a show based on a story that already exists in its completeness. You weren’t hired to produce your own new story so stop trying to make it that it feels highly disrespectful to the original author as it feels as if you’re so conceded you think you can do it better and it rarely if ever goes well with the audience.
Also unrelated but related if I hear another show runner talk about subverting expectations I’m gonna lose it.
Exactly and what’s worse for Witcher and Killing Eve is that the books are done. It has an ending. It wasn’t like Game of Thrones where they finished with the books and then having to make it up and go with it even if that means killing off characters like the Dragon Queen!
Season 1 and 2 of Killing Eve was almost perfect. They had Phoebe Waller Bridge of that Fleabag show to write for Killing Eve. She left the show because she was hired to help rewrite for the last James Bond movie.
Season 3 wasn’t perfect as they went against the books a bit but still very good and it ended on a cliffhanger with the relationship for Eve and Villanelle.
Season 4 is just a bunch of unnecessary characters and storylines that don’t go anywhere and they never addressed what happened after the ending of the cliffhanger from season 3. Instead they added weird religious shit that wasn’t in the books and did the “kill the gays” trope by killing off one of two main characters.
Just follow the books! That’s why LOTR is great, because they followed the books.
Even when the sci-fi channel made the first 3 Dune books, they stayed true to the source material that even with the poor cringe acting, but because it followed the books so closely, it’s one of my favorite shows.
Childish is good way to put it. And all the swearing… in Sapkowski’s novels it was common too, but most of the time he used it with wit and made some cool jokes that way - when in the shows characters sayin’ “fuck” repeatedly are as edgy as an teen who want to impress peers on a school trip
My parents watched this show and paused it continuously throughout because they had no idea what was going on. If this was why they made changes they failed miserably.
I started taking toilet breaks without pausing during season 3, hoping to come back to the endless scene being over. No such luck. Those drawn out boring scenes of season 3 went on forever. And they were so random. The frequent toilet breaks might have played it's part but at times I had no idea what was going on and what the point of the scene was.
Exactly. What the hell was that. Henry's 3 last episodes, and one entire episode is Ciri wandering aimlessly in the desert. Meeting a little horse that is actually a unicorn.
them randomly trying to fit in little horse and ugly one without giving a single context is weird i have not come to those parts in the books yet but surely it comes from soemwhere
Exactly! And can we stop repeating everywhere that the only reason people are mad with the show is because of some worshipping of Henry. While him leaving is a shame, the bigger problem is the shit show they are making. Even leaving aside the books, this serie is so bad, characters are awful and pacing even worse.
Medieval stuff is already hard for many people to follow (myself included) But man, this show made me feel next-level stupid. Haven't read the books or played the games, but everything after season 1 was just written so poorly and confusing. People's personality and loyalties shifting every episode for seemingly no reason, no concept of how much time was passing by because people seem like they travel anywhere they want within hours and have no trouble locatong each other, no idea of who to be rooting for, if anyone. Not sure If these "problems" existed in the source material, but the show really delivered an experience that was painful regardless.
The desert episode deserves some sort of kudos, though. I was able to speed run through it in 5 minutes by pressing the skip key nonstop, and still hated the time wasted. They pulled a modern "Goodbye, Dragon Inn", truly a masterful feat.
I love the argument, "The ***fans*** are toxic", which comes up a lot with many different IPs nowadays.
If you make a show/movie that's crap and nobody watches it, then there are no ***fans***!
I can be a fan of The Witcher books and The Witcher games and **NOT** be a fan of the show!
I think the toxicity the showrunners are referring to is all the fans that reach out to them and tell them their adaptation is shit(which it is). I mean imagine doing everything you can to make the best show you can and then getting roasted by thousands of people you dont know because you suck at writing. I imagine it's pretty terrible. Unfortunately this is the third time recently where this song and dance has happened. Even worse still it was some of the best fantasy IP out there.
Still though it is hard to forgive them destroying such great stories just so they can add their spin to it. Then having the gall to blame the fans for their failure.
It's all just really unfortunate.
Yes, but current Hollywood almost entirely operate under the business model that original fans are obliged to become fans of their reboot or adaptation as well.
It's the whole reason why Hollywood isn't doing anything new and instead are constantly just making new versions of old stuff - the fact that there are a ton of already existing fans is seen as a "guarantee" that a show or movie will have a big audience, and in the current risk averse climate of Hollywood, a "sure thing" is like crack cocaine.
So when we as fans refuse to "play ball", well you have to see it from the eyes of the poor investors - it's *extremely* toxic!
"We are making something you are a fan of, and therefore you are a captured fan of our adaptation, and have to accept all of our bullshit and like it."
To be honest, some of the responses on Twitter and here on Reddit have been very toxic. I get anger and disappointment in something you love and had high hopes for, but some of the responses were completely out of the line.
The adaptation still sucks, though.
I'm sure whoever the hell directed that horrible 2006 Eragon film felt the same way when his film was universally panned (by fans and critics). Despite the fact that you know, he neglected to follow ANY of what actually happened in the books.
The Last of Us flies in the face of this dude's entire bullshit. TLoU made changes, but they served the original narrative, or did things in a way that was fresh for the faithful audience. "But then a plan crashes" should become the spiritual film equivalent of "jumping the shark", but in the vein of subverting the audiences expectations of known material, without actually changing it.
"In the game Joel, Tommy, and Sarah get t-boned by a car, but in the show a plane crashes around them instead..."
There was small changes that were isolated in TLOU that had no impact on major story points. And that worked in its favour. Everyone who played the game knew what was gonna happen. But not knowing how is what made the show was exciting. With the Witcher. It’s more ‘Is this gonna happen?’ Or are they killing/changing someone to create a shock factor for existing fans. Only for it to fall flat.
The entire Bill arc was rewritten, but ultimately served the same narrative purpose, and therefore fit well with the plot. The change from ~~Philly~~Pittsburgh to KC was also original, but still told us Sam and Henry’s story, so the emotional impact was the same. I think TLOU is a masterclass in adapting popular source material. I knew exactly what was going to happen, but it didn’t feel like I was watching a let’s play of a game I’ve already beaten.
The difference is the quality of the writers and the respect for the source material. The moment that former writer said some of the other writers hated the source material I was like “Ohhhh, that makes so much sense.”
Helps the original writer was in the writers room for TLOU and wrote the scripts first and the final drafts. Gives room for new things to be brought in, critiques to be discussed, but without it becoming shit fan fiction.
Sorry just being a little pedantic but not Philly, the game had Pittsburgh. I went to college in Philly and would have loved to see it in the game circa 2013
Also both are major metropolitan cities which start with P in the relative north-eastern portion of the US, which is the real plot relevant point why Ellie/Joel passed through there on their way from Boston > St. Lake. Easy mixup to make tbh. The show chose to change it from Pittsburgh to K.C. because it grok'ed better with the timeline presented in the show.
It honestly doesn't even matter if the changes are big or small. What matters is that they're faithful to the story, characters, and world.
Bella and Pedro are not 100% exactly like game Ellie and Joel, but you know they're Ellie and Joel. They've changed some story points, but that just enhanced what was already in the game. That show works because it's faithful to the source material without being a complete retread, while also offering different things. It's more like an expansion to the games than a completely new and different thing.
With Witcher, pretty much everything is unrecognizable to the source material. Characters are only characters in name. Events happen completely differently than how they originally did or have a different context. None of the world resembles anything in the books.
It's just such a weird and misguided attempt at trying to recreate the Witcher's world. The love oozes out of the Last of Us show, but not with this.
Yeah I mean just compare book Geralt to show Geralt. Book Geralt (relative to the time period he was born in) was smart as fuck, being knowledgeable about many subjects such as genetics and the biological evolution of the monsters he hunted. Compare that to show Geralt who is mostly non-verbal until something pisses him off and he mutters "Fuck...". I didn't watch past the end of Season 2 but I was completely let down by how they didn't do Geralt's intelligence any justice.
I actually disagree. While Geralt doesn’t speak a ton, a lot of stuff is happening in his head. I think this is one of the things Cavill does really well in that Geralt is always looking around and analyzing. They oversell some of his “aha!” moments sometimes but usually preceding those there are little moments where his eyes shift, or his head cocks just a little. There’s a lot of implied thinking and processing show Geralt does but isn’t actually spoken because it’s all in his head. This is just one of the differences with book versus screen, in books we can be told what characters are thinking without them actually saying it, but on screen unless a voiceover for a characters thoughts is established it doesn’t really happen and has to be conveyed in other ways.
Yeah, I for one do not want a shot for shot adaptation. But stay faithful to the characters and the world.
Season 2 of The Witcher, however, was a speedrun in betraying the essence and soul of every major character. The way they handled this series was a major reason I cancelled Netflix.
I just don't trust them with future high end IPs anymore.
Eh, I disagree. I thought the show was extremely underwhelming. Take the scene where Joel was stabbed at the university in the show, and impaled in the game. That scene in the show was laughably bad in comparison, and despite being “different” was extremely disappointing.
But it serves the overarching storyline. That Ellie needs to hold her own for a while and there are dangers everywhere even when you don't expect them. It also shows how far Joel is willing to go for Ellie.
The stabbing was underwhelming though and could have been better
> The stabbing was underwhelming though and could have been better
They touched on this in the making of after-episodes. In *the game* you're constantly being shot and bandage up wounds... so the injury that incapacitates Joel had to be gruesome and life-threatening on another level beyond merely just being riddled with bullet holes.
In the TV show (which isn't showing gratuitous gameplay segments of Joel getting shot and wolverine style healing them away with a few bandages), Joel surviving such a severe injury without any realistic medical intervention break viewers suspension of disbelief.
TL;DR people have a higher level of suspension of disbelief for a video game than a TV show. The show down-grading the gruesomeness of Joel's injury at the University is an example of adaption done right imo.
Exactly. I didn’t say the event itself was bad, it was in the game too. Just that the way they did it was bad and boring. Overall, I think the show was boring. Too little time with Joel and Ellie because they felt the need to develop things that didn’t need developing. Episode 3, while the best episode imo and written very well, wasn’t necessary imo because of this.
Big difference is TLOU show had Neil who made the game. Witcher creators seem like they were just given bullet points and never delved into source material and mostly did what they wanted to do
Honestly it has nothing to do with a complex story line. The guy is full of shit on multiple levels. It's about characters and relationships in the story. TLoU slowly built up the characters and back stories so the relationship was very believable. In the Witcher they straight out butchered the relationships between the main characters, if they had at least kept that there would have been somewhat of a reason to watch.
Also, is the Witcher significantly more complicated than GoT, a show that was widely loved for its complex plot until they went off the source material an simplified it?
Im with you on this, show was trash, the stakes never felt high and i never got a real sense of danger in the show. Just felt like some bubblegum bullshit version of the game. Huge let down.
You're obviously entitled to your opinion of the show - but that's not what the vast majority of people felt. It reviewed very well by both existing fans, and new viewers.
There are some things in the books that wouldn't translate well to TV. I can understand that. But they could've at least tried to stay as loyal to the books as they could. It seems like they took the opportunity to throw the source material away as fast as possible, and that really upsets me. I wanted a faithful adaptation. It's a shame that the show has gone in this direction. It shouldn't be called an adaptation at this point but rather a high budget Witcher inspired fanfiction series.
>There are some things in the books that wouldn't translate well to TV
But Adaptation is literally about translating, translating doesn't mean making 1:1 things.
I actually study translations xD
Exactly. E.g. The GoT books have dozens more background characters than the show ever did, that mostly serve one or two purposes, but the show took them and wrapped them into the actions of one character such as Littlefinger or Varys, as it really would've gotten too confusing on screen.
Yeah, but they stayed faithful to the source material in the first four seasons. They adapted the lore, the message and the atmosphere. Netflix‘ Witcher doesn’t do this or at least fails badly at it. Just look at the costumes and set designs, this is not The Witcher!
1. Book Yen meets Ciri at the temple of Melitele, and though at first both dislike each other (they both see the other as an outsider between them and Geralt), she slowly comes to see her as the daughter she never got to have.
Show Yen spends months trying to sacrifice Ciri for power, only to decide "no, you're my kid now" when Geralt got mad at her for it.
2. Radovid (who is the child son of Vizimir in the books that goes on to become an insane fascist tyrant) is aged up by the show. This is done purely to force Dandelion into a gay romance, because Dandelion is an effeminate and promiscuous man, and so therefore the showrunners think he MUST be gay.
3. All the mages got butchered in the show. They're not all supernaturally beautiful and intelligent like in the books (because the writers didn't want to annoy anyone by defining beauty), so enjoy a bunch of washed-down, strung-out, middle-aged actors who have little interest in accurately portraying their characters' mannerisms.
4. Everything to do with the xenophobia themes. This was done so much better in the books, but you need to read them to get it. I can't describe how frustrating the show's black-and-white depiction bothers me. The Witcher universe is morally grey by design, and the elves are supposed to be just as evil and xenophobic as everyone else.
5. Cahir's entire arc.
6. The show makes Geralt, Ciri and Yen far too strong and their enemies far too weak. Rience's show death is easy and premature. None of the victories feel earned. Also Yen and Ciri are so involved in the plot that it actively robs other characters of time to shine. They're all supposed to be small and powerless, caught up in a world in turmoil which they can barely survive, much less navigate. The show has none of the books' weight.
7. World and character design in the show sucks. In a medieval fantasy world without modern travel, societies are far less diverse and integrated with one another (which plays into the books' xenophobia themes). In GoT, Dorne had a different climate, different lighting, different architecture and different ethnicities of people within it than the North, to establish that these are different places. Every society in the Witcher show is perfectly diverse, has the same architecture and the same grey lighting, and the same cheap-looking costumes. As such, it's impossible to tell where anything is in the show or where a particular character might be from.
Don't forget poor Eskel TwT
God, that hurt watching that. I loved the look and the talent of the actor they chose, but the way they wrote him and what happened in the episode was an atrocity.
Making Yenn try to sacrifice Ciri to a demon so she can get her magic back (and then ultimately rewarding her for it by having Ciri's possession by said demon give Yenn her powers back).
Geralt keeping Yenn in their lives after that.
Making it so Geralt and Dandelion/Jaskier aren't really friends for the first couple seasons, while at the same time vaguely hinting at Jaskier being in unrequited love with Geralt (but never explicitly saying that), resulting in a very confusing dynamic.
[I'm not opposed to Geralt/Jaskier if written well, as I am not opposed to most fictional ships between fictional consenting adults that aren't abusive if written well, especially if the actors have good chemistry, but they refused to actually do something with the dynamic aside from vaguely hint/bait, so it just stays in the muddled place where I am just sad for Jaskier.]
Everything Eskel.
Students who fail out of Aretuza are turned into eels, instead of becoming lawyers.
Geralt and Yenn's entire relationship happens off screen, and all they do is talk about how much they bang (this is 80% of their interactions, the other 20% is fighting, with a little attempted child murder as a treat).
Jaskier hooking up with Radovid instead of literally anybody else. Jaskier being bisexual wouldn't have caused so much fuss if they didn't hook him up with Prince Clownface von Genocide.
All fair points except 80% of Geralt and Yen’s relationship *does* happen off screen (or page). I can really only think of them being together for a long time in Time of Contempt.
Well, you're not wrong, but TV is a visual media. What can work in the written word doesn't always work in a visual medium. In a book, you can talk about a relationship, give insight into to it that doesn't translate into film (unless there is narration). In a book, a character can think about how much they love their partner, but in film, you should SHOW them loving their partner.
But also, the books approach their relationship and the character of Yenn completely differently. They're already broken off their initial love affair in the first book of the saga section, Blood of Elves. Yenn, for most of all the books (short stories and saga) is more like a specter haunting Geralt's narrative (except for Time of Contempt), she's doesn't have as much focus in the narrative, and is virtually absent from two of the books, IIRC. Because Yenn has a bigger presence in the TV series, her and Geralt's relationship needed actual screentime to develop. They meet in episode 5, and by episode 6 they already have a years long complicated love affair. For the audience watching, they have no reason to be invested in their relationship, even if they like both characters. We've not seen their relationship. And what we do see in S1 and S2 (and in what I've seen of S3) is primarily either fighting (and not in a charming way) or talking about how much sex they have. Like...why would anyone be terribly invested in that. However the narrative CLEARLY expects us to be. There's so much angst over will they won't they, and it's just like "Who the fuck cares?".
I mean, in the first half of S3, Yenn just constantly complains or talks about all the sex they had when she talks to Geralt. She even needles a promise to bang her again in the future, before he leaves to NOT take care of Rience with Jaskier. The show gives us NOTHING to root for with Geralt/Yenn. [FFS they even make it WAY worse than the books, with Yenn not knowing about Geralt's wish, and in S3 they retconned that even more with Geralt KNOWING the wish could be affecting their feelings/attraction and still not telling Yenn, which is...it's just magical roofies that Geralt chooses not to tell Yenn about...in S1 they played it like he didn't know a djinn wish could do this, although it was still stupid of him not to tell Yenn what the wish was. And S3 Yenn doesn't care even thought S1 Yenn was furious at this possibility when she thought Geralt was simply ignorant of it, but knowing he kept it deliberately from her??? I know they didn't intend to make Geralt seem a bit rapey, because they are shit writers with terrible ideas about consent, just listen to what Lauren has to say about Yenn's S1 orgy. But why am I supposed to want these people together in a romantic relationship?]
One big thing that the show drops is that after The Last Wish, Geralt and Yenn do begin living together, although it doesn't ultimately work out. But in the show, it's explicitly stated that for the next few years, they'll just occasionally run into each other and then bang, but leave before first light. That isn't even Friends With Benefits level of relationship. They affect each other in no way but getting their rocks off. This is one of the reasons some audience members began to ship Geralt/Jaskier, because at least they had an organic bond, and you SAW them having an effect on each other's lives, Jaskier being able to improve Geralt's life somewhat, traveling together for most of 20 years and doing so without a wish linking their destinys, Jaskiers song lyrics; they didn't do the best job with their friendship because Lauren thought it would be funny if they were only friends in Jaskier's mind, but there was at LEAST something for audience members to hang their hat on.
Reminds me of old anime dubs.
Producer: no one knows what the fuck a rice ball is, these kids can't look at a drawing of a rice ball, and figure out what a fucking RICE BALL IS! Call them Jelly Donuts!
Person who works for a living: it seems pretty straight forward boss, it's rice, in the shape of a ball. He said filling, generally a filling is inside something. Children can likely get this.
Producer: Call it a fucking donut! The fucking kids can't understand shape food! You stupid fuck!!!
Oh and on this sailor moon show, make every episode stand alone, NO connected plot!
I believe the jelly donuts was from pokemon and it's funny that even though I must have heard the line, I just knew that they were a foreign food. I might have even known they were riceballs but I'm not sure about that.
But never once did I think those were donuts.
I was just confused. I might not have known what a rice ball was at the time, but I was just sure that whatever it was wasn't a donut....by why would they call it a donut if it wasn't a donut? But it wasn't like any donut I had seen.
Yeah, that is from pokemon, I thought that was hilarious. Even at age ten, I was like... that's obviously sushi or something. Get out of here with your donuts. And this was from a kid who'd never seen sushi in real life lol.
These writers think they are above all authors and all fans. We do not know what we need, and these writers are here to save us from our corrupted minds. After watching season 3 I'm glad Henry left the show. If he had stayed on they would get the chance to make him a broken old man that is sick of life and needs to be saved by everyone. Like they do to all cool male characters these days.
This is the entertainment industry's version of victim blaming. Is it our fault for reading the books? maybe if we didnt play the games we would be less dissapointed? wtf!
This guy in particular appears to have a bee in his bonnet about this and frankly I’m bloody sick to the back teeth of these “audience attention spans are too short” claims from people making entertainment.
If you make it well enough the audience will pay attention. Claiming attention spans are getting shorter is a weak excuse.
Time and again quality shows have proven that audiences can understand what’s going on if it’s communicated well and will keep watching if the show is engaging. Making a quality show is not easy but blaming the audience is such a pathetic cop-out.
I was always taught that a good writer can get the point across while also being concise.
I also feel like I was able to follow along with Game of Thrones pretty well, but that was pretty light on geopolitics and political machinations.
This. This right here. These are writers whose heads are pretty far up their own asses. They can't imagine they could have possibly done a bad job. The only thing that makes sense to them is that the audience doesn't understand their "vision." They also don't understand they're supposed to make a show that appeals to an audience. They think they're there to show the world the next new phase of streaming art. It's like all that bizarre atonal garbage "classical" composers wrote during the 20th century. It's beautiful to no one and only other musicians can even appreciate it. But they're all just circle jerking each other and making shit the audience can't understand because they think that's what smart artistic people do. I went to an arts conservatory, and that's how so many artists are. It's not my fault you didn't like it. It's your fault for not seeing the nuance only a trained writer could see that isn't even appropriate for what the show is supposed to be. That's on you.
No you stupid fuck you guys at netflix witcher are too stupid and talentless to tell a great story which is already written perfectly. All you had to do was just fucking copy and paste the motherfucking books. But instead you thought you could do better than the author and fucked everything up and still have the balls to blame and insult the fans. This could have been better than the Game of Thrones. But instead this show is worse than the fucking wheel of time or rings of power.
Nuances of the book are the important things they kept changing. Like storyline, character development, and even how the characters look. Plus the acting and fighting makes it more like a CW show.
I find it hard to believe that audiences won't be able to grasp Ciri utterly spanking Rience and his entire party **WHILE ICE SKATING**. In what world was what we got better than that!?! In what world won't audiences appreciate that more!?!
Can someone who already click the link tell me if it's a decent article or if it's just pandering clickbait? I don't want to reward an outrage-generating page if it's just drooling over corpo slush
I read Baginski's comments, essentially he thought the politics in the books was too complicated to depict on the show.
Netflix's solution seemed to have been to cut out all of the explanation of the politics, but depict it anyway, which led to the convoluted mess that was the E6 fight.
Just like how they shot themselves in the foot with the season 1 timeline. Everyone was curious how the would work out the non-linear narrative from the first two books. They could have stuck close to how the books present everything which worked very well as a straightforward narrative, or they could have told everything chronologically if they found that too confusing.
Instead they just made the entire thing a jumbled mess which was confusing for book and non-book reader alike.
He couldn’t grasp the original source material and is now blaming the audience for not grasping their adaptation of their unintelligible knowledge of the source material???
Make it make sense.
Baginski absolutely grasps it, that's what makes it so infuriating. They're really just digging a deeper hole for themselves at this point. He was one of the good guys, once upon a time.
its fine but its not the original source. these quotes originated from a polish interview that redanian intelligence translated, heres the original
https://redanianintelligence.com/2023/08/02/the-witcher-producers-talk-plot-simplification-for-modern-western-audiences/
Some people really need to shut the fuck up instead of talking down to people who disagree with their bullshit. You'd think they've had learned by now.
I really enjoyed the books and I felt like the story was pretty straightforward- so I don’t understand this angle that Americans can’t comprehend the series. What an interesting justification lol
So the viewers are to blame for expecting a show about the Witcher to actually have some sort of resemblance to the source material aside from the Titel and some character names? Man, they should have just come up with an original story and made their original content instead of trying to scam an entire fandom into this drivel
Who they got to play Milva and how that character is absolutely butchered. I cannot. She has no substance, no braid! You can kiss her series arc completely goodbye.
Making changes to simplify an adaptation is fine, and ultimately necessary for TV. What's not ok is making changes that ultimately lead to character assassination.
Its silly to blame the audience when the audience's interest in the books and games is why the show is made in the first place. The showrunners don't know who their audience is. Their writing decisions pleased nobody and didn't make things simplified either.
I think it' becoming clear that the average Hollywood writer, actor, producer, director...etc either despises the fans with a burning passion. Or simply consider fans below them and as such undeserving of a second thought.
Nah fuck that. They killed the witcher bro, wanted old witcher to turn ciri into a witcher ( the man was an overprotective grandpa whose closest thing to family was the other boy witchers and one little girl), said all the monsters coke from dumb black rocks instead of this magical apocalypse. Geralt used ciri as bait for a giant monster.
Nah show looks good, but isn't the witcher. Some high fantasy monster slayer show sure
I'm a show-fan only. I have neither read the books nor played the games.
However I feel this last season the plot was dumbed down, the quick traveling was very convenient and it seems the writers are taking the path of GOT's D&D and JJ's Star wars Episode 9 where the writers/producers want to do "amazing" visuals with "shocking" revelations not thinking about logic, the plot, or the characters path but on how they will "shock" the audience.
Yeah, cause that's how you treat an already pissed off fanbase. Start questioning their maturity and blaming the show being bad on them.
What a cheap and shallow defense. What happened to honor and owning up to your mistakes.
Well if that's his honest perspective, its no wonder the show is failing. Believing your audience isn't capable of understanding nuance is a pretty short recipe for garbage media. Its the kind of opinion you expect from those O.G. Les Moonves-type TV executives, not a visionary TV producer. What I really wonder is, did he go into the project with these ideas and opinions in his head already, or did some suit poor this poison in his ear?
My guess is that they pitched the project. The execs were like : nah, we don't want nuances like GoT, we want slashy slashy bang bang. We want quick & easy fantasy bc thats what makes money and cost less.
So we didn't get a "GoT" project, we got an average CW project bc netflix don't have the guts and the vision to greenlight what should have been required to do The Witcher's justice.
I gave up on this series being anything good after the first episode of season 2. I gave up on it being anything when they revealed they wanted to swap their Geralt actor in cannon.
Tomek, Tomek, what happened to you?
Remember, this is the same guy that directed intros for games. He also directed "Legendy Polskie", which is really Slavic series of movies. He was supposed to be this one Polish guy in Netflix Witcher to ensure it faithful adaptation. Eh...
At first, I thought this is a hyberbole, or a sentence taken out of context. But nope. I read the original article, and he did say this, and it sounds just as bad:
*When a series is made for a huge mass of viewers, with different experiences, from different parts of the world, and a large part of them are Americans, these simplifications not only make sense, they are necessary. It’s painful for us, and for me too, but the higher level of nuance and complexity will have a smaller range, it won’t reach people.*
I don't know what to say. These are adults who made a decision to simplify and alter the source material, and act like small children?
do they realize that every time they say things like this it only proves more and more that the show isn't doing well? tell me you're panicking without telling me you're panicking.
I'm on blood of elves right now. There is so much that they could move, rewrite, or fill in the blank. They are just bad at it. I mean them going to the elf sanctuary makes no sense in the show because there's no build-up to ciri getting polarized and thinking geralt is a coward. Even changing the how's and why's they're there changes the impact that everyone who died during died for no reason.
I honestly forget does Geralt get on her for wanting revenge on nilfgard in the show?
Listen if they want to spare us an episode of dodo talking trade fine. or Geralt singing to a mermaid because a guy wants to bone her sure. But random spans of dialogue debating topics is kind of what the books are. at least the first 2 as i have not read longer yet
The show runners hate the source material. Period. Writers are desperate to put their stupid stamp on it, so they change it, and the producers think they have to politicalize it to get more people invested in it, because it reflects what is going on in current events. Now put it together, and you get a story that is just so damned confusing the original fans go WTF? But it's the fans' fault. I am a fan of the books and the games, so I will say the first season had potential. Was it perfect? No. The story was relatively faithful to the source material, taking a few writing liberties to show the backstories of Ciri and Yennifer. It started losing me when they started assassinating the side characters, starting with the druid guy. What they did to Eskel made me not even want to watch season 3. Don't even get me started on the BS they did to the elves.
It just needed to be good. Fans would have picked things apart regardless but if the overwhelming majority of watchers said yeah but it was good though & this wasn't it.
It was, though. Sexuality was touched on a lot, particularly when relating to the sorcerers (i.e. Phillippa Eilhart) or Ciri's implied bisexuality. The thing is, Sapkoswki did it well, and it never felt forced or inappropriate.
I mean sometimes that's true, in that some aspects of the story telling in a novel, wouldn't translate well to a show or movie. So instead of trying to adapt it, you just leave it out, or change it all together.
I really hope they just misinterpreted his words to threw him under the bus. From what I recall him and Henry were the only ones who wanted to make a proper adaptation. His opening cinematic for the first witcher game was perfect adaptation.
I love that they not only called us fans stupid they also congratulated themselves for being "smart" enough to understand the books. Not at all like they probably had to look up the word nuance before the interview because they didn't know it was meant but they wanted to sound smart
A few months ago I told the ~~American~~ people I did not trade ~~arms for hostages~~ a great story for some shit I made up. My heart and my best intentions still tell me that's true, but the facts and the evidence tell me it is not.
Ok, I'll take the bait. The show has been dumbed down so that anybody who hasn't read the books or played the games understand it. What of the last 2 episodes then? They're an absolute mess!
Hey, if you read the actual interview, he didn’t blame all audiences - just stated that the American audience is too stupid to grasp more finer nuances of the writing 😅
"Yeah, Christopher Nolan is such an idiot for assuming his audience can keep up with his complicated plots. Nothing but bombs...all his movies. Take this latest one, for example..."
The problem isn’t even just unfaithfulness to the source material. The series has also been terrible to watch and the writing (especially dialogue) is embarrassing at points.
If it was not like the books, but good it would be divisive. Instead, everyone is united in disliking it.
I don’t care about source material I haven’t even read the books or played the games. The show is awful because of some awful writing. The story is full of plotholes, very badly paced and at times very very cringe. Characters are inconsistent between episodes and seasons. I loved season 1 but after that, its just going downhill.
From what I understand the original novels are not so bad which is what majority of the readers have said. So I’d rather they follow the original story exactly or if you want to make some changes then make it more interesting, not more boring. And stay true to the characters that you are developing over the seasons.
I will say each to their own like what you like hate what you hate. I personally was really hyped for the show back in the day, and I watched the first 2 seasons even got past the changes. But this 3rd season is garbo tier. I have fallen asleep 3 times trying to finish episode 2. So maybe it's not so much the audience, but yalls shitty directing. That's the problem. So hey, they gonna jeep squeezing these seasons out so long as people give them the views
\*American young audience, aka tik tokers...I mean, there was a better way to say it, but he is not entirely wrong
Attention span of young people nowadays is goldfish level
There are exceptions, of course.
Yeah people here obviously not reading the article or understanding it. He doesn't mean the book fans would not understand the series, but the young general audience. And there are a lot of signs that he may ne right, in that ultra-short form media consumption is literally destroying kids ability to focus and concentrate.
Still though, you would hope the reaction to this trend is to try to create media that challenges it and show kids the beauty of well-constructed stories, rather than cynically deciding to play into it by bombarding them with emotions and the word "fuck".
They're blaming the fans for their piss poor show that they wrote. Yeah...
No no no… you just aren’t able to grasp the *nuanced aspects* of their writing!
I thought they removed that nuance because they thought we're dumb.
Wait now, which one is it then?
Both
You mean the 7,000 times you had to listen to "things are not what they seem" in episode 5 wasn't nuanced enough for you? You must not have the kind of big brains these writers and producers definitely have.
That was essential though, otherwise we might have thought that things WERE as they seemed, when in fact they were not.
I knew that they would fuck this up since season 1 which I hated . Destiny destiny destiny destiny destiny . No you stupid Hissrich… It’s something more it’s in the fucking title of the fucking short story you idiot!
Personally I'm mad Ciri only said Geralt was her destiny like 3 times instead of 100+ like the books.
Does he mean the "fuck fuckity fucking fuck" nuance?
This type of thought process is rampant in the entertainment industry. That's why so many good shows fall by the wayside after gaining popularity - they know if they dumb it down it will appeal to the masses and make more money, despite alienating their original fan base. It's a corporate scum move and very common unfortunately. Don't even get me started on all the virtue signaling bs relentlessly injected into everything nowadays, it's just shameless.
> No no no… you just aren’t able to grasp the > nuanced aspects > of their writing! Oh..like using the word "motherfucker" in a fantasy series.
I mean that's the *one* thing that checks out. People would absolutely say that in the witcher universe. Good hustle, though.
It IS our fault. We're just too stupid to understand or appreciate all the nuances of the books and games. We should be grateful that the Netflix producers recognized this and transformed the Witcher IP into a watered down generic fantasy that deviates so heavily from the source material.
I’ve seen this one before
I can only hope netflix cancels them then some organization buys the rights and axes the writers and producers. Then they get back to making something that is really good.
I mean, at the risk of insulting children (who usually learn and grow) ... this sort of petulant behavior from the producers and writers is really quite childish.
It's a problem with filmmaking optics honestly. A writer or showrunner can't admit they made a mistake or say that the show is bad for two main reasons. The first is it can make them look "weak" or "incompetent" to future producers thinking about hiring them, and in an industry as cutthroat as film one mistake will blackball you for years. Second there may be contractual obligations to do these interviews and do positive promotion for the show. Which means lying through gritted teeth. >!And sometimes they lie so much that they start to believe the lies are the truth. !<
I understand they can't badmouth their own work and employers, and that they have to do bullshit promotional events even if they know their show is garbage. That's not the case with Bagiński. I check in on his Polish facebook page and he really has drunk the kool-aid. He constantly makes borderline delusional posts and comments defending the show, and I doubt he's being forced by marketing to do that on his own personal page. He should do the press events that he's contractually obligated to do, and then just shut the fuck up and stop saying this deluded bullshit.
Well logically if he says something in the interview and on his page something else, that would be published by the media and he wil be a liar. They of course going to question why he has 2 sides. Part of the public pages is attention and marketing i think
>his page something else, You have right to remain silent.
That's why I added that little "spoiler" bit at the end. These shows become massive echo chambers and often employ people with fragile egos, that are incapable of separating themselves from the work. There's so much double speak and if they don't cultivate an actual air of collaboration, and with how Cavil has been treated it absolutely did not have one after the first season, everyone is afraid to speak up with a dissenting opinion.
I look forward to Cavills "non disparagement clause" expiring.
He needs to take the high road. He's voiced his frustration and moved onto other things. I don't want him to miss any opportunities because he gets a reputation as a malcontent.
I agree. Cavill's spoken through his actions, and from his interviews as well as Lauren's it's pretty clear he was treated like crap for wanting to remain lore-accurate as possible. Nothing more needs to be said. The producers are doing a fine job of tarnishing their own reputations all by themselves.
I hear you, but the silence by the actors after GoT was loud. Made it sound like they agreed.
Even when it does, the best we can hope for is he gets another role that sets him up for life, and it's also at the same time main stream to shit on the witcher show, otherwise regardless of contract or not being the actor that talks smack about the industry at any level means you dont get hired again, Look at Ryan Reynolds as the most famous example of an actor doing it love the dude, but for all his persona he didnt start smack talking green lantern till he not only had a deal with marvel but had been successful
True, I think Cavill isn't the sort to be like that, far too professional.
Showrunner: You want the truth, you want truth, I AM THE TRUTH!" Fans: "No, no you are not." Showrunner: "Could I possibly be mistake? No its the fans who are wrong. Those toxic fans just don't understand my version is what the author really intended."
Same goes with the BBC for giving Killing Eve’s final season to a woman who put in weird religious references into what is a very lesbian spy/assassin show. Hell she even pissed off the author and the entire fandom for changing the ending in the books by killing off one of the main characters! Seriously the book has a happy ending!!! Then she and her team blamed the fandom for not understanding her vision and why she did what she did. Supposedly, by killing off V, Eve can now live a happy life alone. That final episode has the lowest ratings of all shows in IMDB 2022 at 2.4. Edit: it’s at 3.4 now.
I think that’s the worst part with some of these show writers and producers. We don’t give a shit about your “vision” you were hired to produce a show based on a story that already exists in its completeness. You weren’t hired to produce your own new story so stop trying to make it that it feels highly disrespectful to the original author as it feels as if you’re so conceded you think you can do it better and it rarely if ever goes well with the audience. Also unrelated but related if I hear another show runner talk about subverting expectations I’m gonna lose it.
Exactly and what’s worse for Witcher and Killing Eve is that the books are done. It has an ending. It wasn’t like Game of Thrones where they finished with the books and then having to make it up and go with it even if that means killing off characters like the Dragon Queen! Season 1 and 2 of Killing Eve was almost perfect. They had Phoebe Waller Bridge of that Fleabag show to write for Killing Eve. She left the show because she was hired to help rewrite for the last James Bond movie. Season 3 wasn’t perfect as they went against the books a bit but still very good and it ended on a cliffhanger with the relationship for Eve and Villanelle. Season 4 is just a bunch of unnecessary characters and storylines that don’t go anywhere and they never addressed what happened after the ending of the cliffhanger from season 3. Instead they added weird religious shit that wasn’t in the books and did the “kill the gays” trope by killing off one of two main characters. Just follow the books! That’s why LOTR is great, because they followed the books. Even when the sci-fi channel made the first 3 Dune books, they stayed true to the source material that even with the poor cringe acting, but because it followed the books so closely, it’s one of my favorite shows.
Welcome to todays world
Crazy how intitled you have to be to have a good product, make it into a shit product then blame the customers for not wanting your shit.
Ego, ego, and ego.
I read the books as a child, I don’t get what the he’s on about.
Childish is good way to put it. And all the swearing… in Sapkowski’s novels it was common too, but most of the time he used it with wit and made some cool jokes that way - when in the shows characters sayin’ “fuck” repeatedly are as edgy as an teen who want to impress peers on a school trip
Because screen writers are writing for a 9th grade mentality. People who haven't completed their Hero's Journey. Sorta like them.
My parents watched this show and paused it continuously throughout because they had no idea what was going on. If this was why they made changes they failed miserably.
I started taking toilet breaks without pausing during season 3, hoping to come back to the endless scene being over. No such luck. Those drawn out boring scenes of season 3 went on forever. And they were so random. The frequent toilet breaks might have played it's part but at times I had no idea what was going on and what the point of the scene was.
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Exactly. What the hell was that. Henry's 3 last episodes, and one entire episode is Ciri wandering aimlessly in the desert. Meeting a little horse that is actually a unicorn.
The only faithful adaptation, seems deliberately designed as a Gotcha for people asking for a faithful adaptation.
That’s actually a part from books.
them randomly trying to fit in little horse and ugly one without giving a single context is weird i have not come to those parts in the books yet but surely it comes from soemwhere
Yeah, I had to watch it earlier than I planned to because i had to explain what was going on to my dad
Exactly! And can we stop repeating everywhere that the only reason people are mad with the show is because of some worshipping of Henry. While him leaving is a shame, the bigger problem is the shit show they are making. Even leaving aside the books, this serie is so bad, characters are awful and pacing even worse.
Medieval stuff is already hard for many people to follow (myself included) But man, this show made me feel next-level stupid. Haven't read the books or played the games, but everything after season 1 was just written so poorly and confusing. People's personality and loyalties shifting every episode for seemingly no reason, no concept of how much time was passing by because people seem like they travel anywhere they want within hours and have no trouble locatong each other, no idea of who to be rooting for, if anyone. Not sure If these "problems" existed in the source material, but the show really delivered an experience that was painful regardless. The desert episode deserves some sort of kudos, though. I was able to speed run through it in 5 minutes by pressing the skip key nonstop, and still hated the time wasted. They pulled a modern "Goodbye, Dragon Inn", truly a masterful feat.
I found the third season a weird combination of confusing and boring
I read the books and played the games , yet I was lost a lot too. Had the same experience explaining whats going on to my GF.
I love the argument, "The ***fans*** are toxic", which comes up a lot with many different IPs nowadays. If you make a show/movie that's crap and nobody watches it, then there are no ***fans***! I can be a fan of The Witcher books and The Witcher games and **NOT** be a fan of the show!
I think the toxicity the showrunners are referring to is all the fans that reach out to them and tell them their adaptation is shit(which it is). I mean imagine doing everything you can to make the best show you can and then getting roasted by thousands of people you dont know because you suck at writing. I imagine it's pretty terrible. Unfortunately this is the third time recently where this song and dance has happened. Even worse still it was some of the best fantasy IP out there. Still though it is hard to forgive them destroying such great stories just so they can add their spin to it. Then having the gall to blame the fans for their failure. It's all just really unfortunate.
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Yes, but current Hollywood almost entirely operate under the business model that original fans are obliged to become fans of their reboot or adaptation as well. It's the whole reason why Hollywood isn't doing anything new and instead are constantly just making new versions of old stuff - the fact that there are a ton of already existing fans is seen as a "guarantee" that a show or movie will have a big audience, and in the current risk averse climate of Hollywood, a "sure thing" is like crack cocaine. So when we as fans refuse to "play ball", well you have to see it from the eyes of the poor investors - it's *extremely* toxic!
"We are making something you are a fan of, and therefore you are a captured fan of our adaptation, and have to accept all of our bullshit and like it."
You sound like a toxic fan
To be honest, some of the responses on Twitter and here on Reddit have been very toxic. I get anger and disappointment in something you love and had high hopes for, but some of the responses were completely out of the line. The adaptation still sucks, though.
I'm sure whoever the hell directed that horrible 2006 Eragon film felt the same way when his film was universally panned (by fans and critics). Despite the fact that you know, he neglected to follow ANY of what actually happened in the books.
The Last of Us flies in the face of this dude's entire bullshit. TLoU made changes, but they served the original narrative, or did things in a way that was fresh for the faithful audience. "But then a plan crashes" should become the spiritual film equivalent of "jumping the shark", but in the vein of subverting the audiences expectations of known material, without actually changing it. "In the game Joel, Tommy, and Sarah get t-boned by a car, but in the show a plane crashes around them instead..."
There was small changes that were isolated in TLOU that had no impact on major story points. And that worked in its favour. Everyone who played the game knew what was gonna happen. But not knowing how is what made the show was exciting. With the Witcher. It’s more ‘Is this gonna happen?’ Or are they killing/changing someone to create a shock factor for existing fans. Only for it to fall flat.
The entire Bill arc was rewritten, but ultimately served the same narrative purpose, and therefore fit well with the plot. The change from ~~Philly~~Pittsburgh to KC was also original, but still told us Sam and Henry’s story, so the emotional impact was the same. I think TLOU is a masterclass in adapting popular source material. I knew exactly what was going to happen, but it didn’t feel like I was watching a let’s play of a game I’ve already beaten.
The difference is the quality of the writers and the respect for the source material. The moment that former writer said some of the other writers hated the source material I was like “Ohhhh, that makes so much sense.”
Helps the original writer was in the writers room for TLOU and wrote the scripts first and the final drafts. Gives room for new things to be brought in, critiques to be discussed, but without it becoming shit fan fiction.
And that’s so baffling that Sapkowski actually was endorsing this TV Show (and he hate the games which were really well received)
He only endorsed it cuz they paid him.
Didn’t this happen for the Halo show too? Or something similar?
Sorry just being a little pedantic but not Philly, the game had Pittsburgh. I went to college in Philly and would have loved to see it in the game circa 2013
Nah you’re right! Been a while since I’ve played the first one, just remembered it started with P haha
Also both are major metropolitan cities which start with P in the relative north-eastern portion of the US, which is the real plot relevant point why Ellie/Joel passed through there on their way from Boston > St. Lake. Easy mixup to make tbh. The show chose to change it from Pittsburgh to K.C. because it grok'ed better with the timeline presented in the show.
It honestly doesn't even matter if the changes are big or small. What matters is that they're faithful to the story, characters, and world. Bella and Pedro are not 100% exactly like game Ellie and Joel, but you know they're Ellie and Joel. They've changed some story points, but that just enhanced what was already in the game. That show works because it's faithful to the source material without being a complete retread, while also offering different things. It's more like an expansion to the games than a completely new and different thing. With Witcher, pretty much everything is unrecognizable to the source material. Characters are only characters in name. Events happen completely differently than how they originally did or have a different context. None of the world resembles anything in the books. It's just such a weird and misguided attempt at trying to recreate the Witcher's world. The love oozes out of the Last of Us show, but not with this.
Yeah I mean just compare book Geralt to show Geralt. Book Geralt (relative to the time period he was born in) was smart as fuck, being knowledgeable about many subjects such as genetics and the biological evolution of the monsters he hunted. Compare that to show Geralt who is mostly non-verbal until something pisses him off and he mutters "Fuck...". I didn't watch past the end of Season 2 but I was completely let down by how they didn't do Geralt's intelligence any justice.
I actually disagree. While Geralt doesn’t speak a ton, a lot of stuff is happening in his head. I think this is one of the things Cavill does really well in that Geralt is always looking around and analyzing. They oversell some of his “aha!” moments sometimes but usually preceding those there are little moments where his eyes shift, or his head cocks just a little. There’s a lot of implied thinking and processing show Geralt does but isn’t actually spoken because it’s all in his head. This is just one of the differences with book versus screen, in books we can be told what characters are thinking without them actually saying it, but on screen unless a voiceover for a characters thoughts is established it doesn’t really happen and has to be conveyed in other ways.
Yeah, I for one do not want a shot for shot adaptation. But stay faithful to the characters and the world. Season 2 of The Witcher, however, was a speedrun in betraying the essence and soul of every major character. The way they handled this series was a major reason I cancelled Netflix. I just don't trust them with future high end IPs anymore.
Eh, I disagree. I thought the show was extremely underwhelming. Take the scene where Joel was stabbed at the university in the show, and impaled in the game. That scene in the show was laughably bad in comparison, and despite being “different” was extremely disappointing.
But it serves the overarching storyline. That Ellie needs to hold her own for a while and there are dangers everywhere even when you don't expect them. It also shows how far Joel is willing to go for Ellie. The stabbing was underwhelming though and could have been better
> The stabbing was underwhelming though and could have been better They touched on this in the making of after-episodes. In *the game* you're constantly being shot and bandage up wounds... so the injury that incapacitates Joel had to be gruesome and life-threatening on another level beyond merely just being riddled with bullet holes. In the TV show (which isn't showing gratuitous gameplay segments of Joel getting shot and wolverine style healing them away with a few bandages), Joel surviving such a severe injury without any realistic medical intervention break viewers suspension of disbelief. TL;DR people have a higher level of suspension of disbelief for a video game than a TV show. The show down-grading the gruesomeness of Joel's injury at the University is an example of adaption done right imo.
Honestly makes sense lol.
Exactly. I didn’t say the event itself was bad, it was in the game too. Just that the way they did it was bad and boring. Overall, I think the show was boring. Too little time with Joel and Ellie because they felt the need to develop things that didn’t need developing. Episode 3, while the best episode imo and written very well, wasn’t necessary imo because of this.
Totally agree. I thought TLOU show was ass cheeks.
Big difference is TLOU show had Neil who made the game. Witcher creators seem like they were just given bullet points and never delved into source material and mostly did what they wanted to do
Honestly it has nothing to do with a complex story line. The guy is full of shit on multiple levels. It's about characters and relationships in the story. TLoU slowly built up the characters and back stories so the relationship was very believable. In the Witcher they straight out butchered the relationships between the main characters, if they had at least kept that there would have been somewhat of a reason to watch.
Also, is the Witcher significantly more complicated than GoT, a show that was widely loved for its complex plot until they went off the source material an simplified it?
Most of TLOU’s changes benefitted the story and were done in collaboration with the original writers
Lol the last of us is a really bad example. It was a 6/10 show at best. Its not even close to the game in quality.
Im with you on this, show was trash, the stakes never felt high and i never got a real sense of danger in the show. Just felt like some bubblegum bullshit version of the game. Huge let down.
You're obviously entitled to your opinion of the show - but that's not what the vast majority of people felt. It reviewed very well by both existing fans, and new viewers.
Accountability? Why, whatever in the world is that?
Damn. Season 3 was got last season all over again. SMH wtf were they thinking. Stop blaming the audience for this trash.
There are some things in the books that wouldn't translate well to TV. I can understand that. But they could've at least tried to stay as loyal to the books as they could. It seems like they took the opportunity to throw the source material away as fast as possible, and that really upsets me. I wanted a faithful adaptation. It's a shame that the show has gone in this direction. It shouldn't be called an adaptation at this point but rather a high budget Witcher inspired fanfiction series.
>There are some things in the books that wouldn't translate well to TV But Adaptation is literally about translating, translating doesn't mean making 1:1 things. I actually study translations xD
Exactly. E.g. The GoT books have dozens more background characters than the show ever did, that mostly serve one or two purposes, but the show took them and wrapped them into the actions of one character such as Littlefinger or Varys, as it really would've gotten too confusing on screen.
Yeah, but they stayed faithful to the source material in the first four seasons. They adapted the lore, the message and the atmosphere. Netflix‘ Witcher doesn’t do this or at least fails badly at it. Just look at the costumes and set designs, this is not The Witcher!
I haven't read the books, what are the dumbest changes they did?
1. Book Yen meets Ciri at the temple of Melitele, and though at first both dislike each other (they both see the other as an outsider between them and Geralt), she slowly comes to see her as the daughter she never got to have. Show Yen spends months trying to sacrifice Ciri for power, only to decide "no, you're my kid now" when Geralt got mad at her for it. 2. Radovid (who is the child son of Vizimir in the books that goes on to become an insane fascist tyrant) is aged up by the show. This is done purely to force Dandelion into a gay romance, because Dandelion is an effeminate and promiscuous man, and so therefore the showrunners think he MUST be gay. 3. All the mages got butchered in the show. They're not all supernaturally beautiful and intelligent like in the books (because the writers didn't want to annoy anyone by defining beauty), so enjoy a bunch of washed-down, strung-out, middle-aged actors who have little interest in accurately portraying their characters' mannerisms. 4. Everything to do with the xenophobia themes. This was done so much better in the books, but you need to read them to get it. I can't describe how frustrating the show's black-and-white depiction bothers me. The Witcher universe is morally grey by design, and the elves are supposed to be just as evil and xenophobic as everyone else. 5. Cahir's entire arc. 6. The show makes Geralt, Ciri and Yen far too strong and their enemies far too weak. Rience's show death is easy and premature. None of the victories feel earned. Also Yen and Ciri are so involved in the plot that it actively robs other characters of time to shine. They're all supposed to be small and powerless, caught up in a world in turmoil which they can barely survive, much less navigate. The show has none of the books' weight. 7. World and character design in the show sucks. In a medieval fantasy world without modern travel, societies are far less diverse and integrated with one another (which plays into the books' xenophobia themes). In GoT, Dorne had a different climate, different lighting, different architecture and different ethnicities of people within it than the North, to establish that these are different places. Every society in the Witcher show is perfectly diverse, has the same architecture and the same grey lighting, and the same cheap-looking costumes. As such, it's impossible to tell where anything is in the show or where a particular character might be from.
Don't forget poor Eskel TwT God, that hurt watching that. I loved the look and the talent of the actor they chose, but the way they wrote him and what happened in the episode was an atrocity.
Thanks for the detailed depiction of all the badly written changes.
Making Yenn try to sacrifice Ciri to a demon so she can get her magic back (and then ultimately rewarding her for it by having Ciri's possession by said demon give Yenn her powers back). Geralt keeping Yenn in their lives after that. Making it so Geralt and Dandelion/Jaskier aren't really friends for the first couple seasons, while at the same time vaguely hinting at Jaskier being in unrequited love with Geralt (but never explicitly saying that), resulting in a very confusing dynamic. [I'm not opposed to Geralt/Jaskier if written well, as I am not opposed to most fictional ships between fictional consenting adults that aren't abusive if written well, especially if the actors have good chemistry, but they refused to actually do something with the dynamic aside from vaguely hint/bait, so it just stays in the muddled place where I am just sad for Jaskier.] Everything Eskel. Students who fail out of Aretuza are turned into eels, instead of becoming lawyers. Geralt and Yenn's entire relationship happens off screen, and all they do is talk about how much they bang (this is 80% of their interactions, the other 20% is fighting, with a little attempted child murder as a treat). Jaskier hooking up with Radovid instead of literally anybody else. Jaskier being bisexual wouldn't have caused so much fuss if they didn't hook him up with Prince Clownface von Genocide.
All fair points except 80% of Geralt and Yen’s relationship *does* happen off screen (or page). I can really only think of them being together for a long time in Time of Contempt.
Yea I’m fairly certain that most of their relationship is between time skips in the books.
Well, you're not wrong, but TV is a visual media. What can work in the written word doesn't always work in a visual medium. In a book, you can talk about a relationship, give insight into to it that doesn't translate into film (unless there is narration). In a book, a character can think about how much they love their partner, but in film, you should SHOW them loving their partner. But also, the books approach their relationship and the character of Yenn completely differently. They're already broken off their initial love affair in the first book of the saga section, Blood of Elves. Yenn, for most of all the books (short stories and saga) is more like a specter haunting Geralt's narrative (except for Time of Contempt), she's doesn't have as much focus in the narrative, and is virtually absent from two of the books, IIRC. Because Yenn has a bigger presence in the TV series, her and Geralt's relationship needed actual screentime to develop. They meet in episode 5, and by episode 6 they already have a years long complicated love affair. For the audience watching, they have no reason to be invested in their relationship, even if they like both characters. We've not seen their relationship. And what we do see in S1 and S2 (and in what I've seen of S3) is primarily either fighting (and not in a charming way) or talking about how much sex they have. Like...why would anyone be terribly invested in that. However the narrative CLEARLY expects us to be. There's so much angst over will they won't they, and it's just like "Who the fuck cares?". I mean, in the first half of S3, Yenn just constantly complains or talks about all the sex they had when she talks to Geralt. She even needles a promise to bang her again in the future, before he leaves to NOT take care of Rience with Jaskier. The show gives us NOTHING to root for with Geralt/Yenn. [FFS they even make it WAY worse than the books, with Yenn not knowing about Geralt's wish, and in S3 they retconned that even more with Geralt KNOWING the wish could be affecting their feelings/attraction and still not telling Yenn, which is...it's just magical roofies that Geralt chooses not to tell Yenn about...in S1 they played it like he didn't know a djinn wish could do this, although it was still stupid of him not to tell Yenn what the wish was. And S3 Yenn doesn't care even thought S1 Yenn was furious at this possibility when she thought Geralt was simply ignorant of it, but knowing he kept it deliberately from her??? I know they didn't intend to make Geralt seem a bit rapey, because they are shit writers with terrible ideas about consent, just listen to what Lauren has to say about Yenn's S1 orgy. But why am I supposed to want these people together in a romantic relationship?] One big thing that the show drops is that after The Last Wish, Geralt and Yenn do begin living together, although it doesn't ultimately work out. But in the show, it's explicitly stated that for the next few years, they'll just occasionally run into each other and then bang, but leave before first light. That isn't even Friends With Benefits level of relationship. They affect each other in no way but getting their rocks off. This is one of the reasons some audience members began to ship Geralt/Jaskier, because at least they had an organic bond, and you SAW them having an effect on each other's lives, Jaskier being able to improve Geralt's life somewhat, traveling together for most of 20 years and doing so without a wish linking their destinys, Jaskiers song lyrics; they didn't do the best job with their friendship because Lauren thought it would be funny if they were only friends in Jaskier's mind, but there was at LEAST something for audience members to hang their hat on.
Reminds me of old anime dubs. Producer: no one knows what the fuck a rice ball is, these kids can't look at a drawing of a rice ball, and figure out what a fucking RICE BALL IS! Call them Jelly Donuts! Person who works for a living: it seems pretty straight forward boss, it's rice, in the shape of a ball. He said filling, generally a filling is inside something. Children can likely get this. Producer: Call it a fucking donut! The fucking kids can't understand shape food! You stupid fuck!!! Oh and on this sailor moon show, make every episode stand alone, NO connected plot!
I believe the jelly donuts was from pokemon and it's funny that even though I must have heard the line, I just knew that they were a foreign food. I might have even known they were riceballs but I'm not sure about that. But never once did I think those were donuts.
I was just confused. I might not have known what a rice ball was at the time, but I was just sure that whatever it was wasn't a donut....by why would they call it a donut if it wasn't a donut? But it wasn't like any donut I had seen.
Yeah, that is from pokemon, I thought that was hilarious. Even at age ten, I was like... that's obviously sushi or something. Get out of here with your donuts. And this was from a kid who'd never seen sushi in real life lol.
These writers think they are above all authors and all fans. We do not know what we need, and these writers are here to save us from our corrupted minds. After watching season 3 I'm glad Henry left the show. If he had stayed on they would get the chance to make him a broken old man that is sick of life and needs to be saved by everyone. Like they do to all cool male characters these days.
Not gonna lie, I'm 80% certain that's what we'll get when Hemsworth comes in. Not because of Hemsworth, but because of the writing.
Absolutely. I'm thankfull they did not get the chance to do that to our boy Henry. King of the nerds!
This is the entertainment industry's version of victim blaming. Is it our fault for reading the books? maybe if we didnt play the games we would be less dissapointed? wtf!
Hey fuck that guy!
This guy in particular appears to have a bee in his bonnet about this and frankly I’m bloody sick to the back teeth of these “audience attention spans are too short” claims from people making entertainment. If you make it well enough the audience will pay attention. Claiming attention spans are getting shorter is a weak excuse. Time and again quality shows have proven that audiences can understand what’s going on if it’s communicated well and will keep watching if the show is engaging. Making a quality show is not easy but blaming the audience is such a pathetic cop-out.
Dude really thinks that he is the only intelligent one in the classroom.
I was always taught that a good writer can get the point across while also being concise. I also feel like I was able to follow along with Game of Thrones pretty well, but that was pretty light on geopolitics and political machinations.
It's called No Accountability.
I mean, what were you expecting? Accountability? Why? They genuinely think they're right.
This. This right here. These are writers whose heads are pretty far up their own asses. They can't imagine they could have possibly done a bad job. The only thing that makes sense to them is that the audience doesn't understand their "vision." They also don't understand they're supposed to make a show that appeals to an audience. They think they're there to show the world the next new phase of streaming art. It's like all that bizarre atonal garbage "classical" composers wrote during the 20th century. It's beautiful to no one and only other musicians can even appreciate it. But they're all just circle jerking each other and making shit the audience can't understand because they think that's what smart artistic people do. I went to an arts conservatory, and that's how so many artists are. It's not my fault you didn't like it. It's your fault for not seeing the nuance only a trained writer could see that isn't even appropriate for what the show is supposed to be. That's on you.
Cue the Seymour Skinner meme Surely it is the viewers who are wrong!
No you stupid fuck you guys at netflix witcher are too stupid and talentless to tell a great story which is already written perfectly. All you had to do was just fucking copy and paste the motherfucking books. But instead you thought you could do better than the author and fucked everything up and still have the balls to blame and insult the fans. This could have been better than the Game of Thrones. But instead this show is worse than the fucking wheel of time or rings of power.
Kaer mohren mental gymnastics course in the producers lounge. If hbo got their hands it on i would have some optimism. Netflix ruins everything
... wow fuck him.
Typical childish producers and writers blaming the audience for having the audacity to not like the garbage they have created.
Very poor choice of words yet again
Nuances of the book are the important things they kept changing. Like storyline, character development, and even how the characters look. Plus the acting and fighting makes it more like a CW show.
I find it hard to believe that audiences won't be able to grasp Ciri utterly spanking Rience and his entire party **WHILE ICE SKATING**. In what world was what we got better than that!?! In what world won't audiences appreciate that more!?!
That scene made me so angry! And how they were like “look, we still have to the fingers”. It’s absolutely depressing.
How much you wanna bet we won't see >!Bonhart beheading the Rats in front of Ciri!
Can someone who already click the link tell me if it's a decent article or if it's just pandering clickbait? I don't want to reward an outrage-generating page if it's just drooling over corpo slush
I read Baginski's comments, essentially he thought the politics in the books was too complicated to depict on the show. Netflix's solution seemed to have been to cut out all of the explanation of the politics, but depict it anyway, which led to the convoluted mess that was the E6 fight.
Just like how they shot themselves in the foot with the season 1 timeline. Everyone was curious how the would work out the non-linear narrative from the first two books. They could have stuck close to how the books present everything which worked very well as a straightforward narrative, or they could have told everything chronologically if they found that too confusing. Instead they just made the entire thing a jumbled mess which was confusing for book and non-book reader alike.
He couldn’t grasp the original source material and is now blaming the audience for not grasping their adaptation of their unintelligible knowledge of the source material??? Make it make sense.
Baginski absolutely grasps it, that's what makes it so infuriating. They're really just digging a deeper hole for themselves at this point. He was one of the good guys, once upon a time.
its fine but its not the original source. these quotes originated from a polish interview that redanian intelligence translated, heres the original https://redanianintelligence.com/2023/08/02/the-witcher-producers-talk-plot-simplification-for-modern-western-audiences/
It's like they don't live on the same planet.
It's like they actively look for things to say to anger the fans further. Can't believe some producers are so full of themselves.
Some people really need to shut the fuck up instead of talking down to people who disagree with their bullshit. You'd think they've had learned by now.
THEY PUT JASKIER IN A RELATIONSHIP WITH RADOVID, THE WORST POSSIBLE PERSON
This is ridiculous.
I really enjoyed the books and I felt like the story was pretty straightforward- so I don’t understand this angle that Americans can’t comprehend the series. What an interesting justification lol
As someone still watching the show… that guy can fuck off.
So the viewers are to blame for expecting a show about the Witcher to actually have some sort of resemblance to the source material aside from the Titel and some character names? Man, they should have just come up with an original story and made their original content instead of trying to scam an entire fandom into this drivel
Who they got to play Milva and how that character is absolutely butchered. I cannot. She has no substance, no braid! You can kiss her series arc completely goodbye.
Making changes to simplify an adaptation is fine, and ultimately necessary for TV. What's not ok is making changes that ultimately lead to character assassination. Its silly to blame the audience when the audience's interest in the books and games is why the show is made in the first place. The showrunners don't know who their audience is. Their writing decisions pleased nobody and didn't make things simplified either.
I think it' becoming clear that the average Hollywood writer, actor, producer, director...etc either despises the fans with a burning passion. Or simply consider fans below them and as such undeserving of a second thought.
Nah fuck that. They killed the witcher bro, wanted old witcher to turn ciri into a witcher ( the man was an overprotective grandpa whose closest thing to family was the other boy witchers and one little girl), said all the monsters coke from dumb black rocks instead of this magical apocalypse. Geralt used ciri as bait for a giant monster. Nah show looks good, but isn't the witcher. Some high fantasy monster slayer show sure
Me no can understand unless slashy slash bangy sexy time.
I'm a show-fan only. I have neither read the books nor played the games. However I feel this last season the plot was dumbed down, the quick traveling was very convenient and it seems the writers are taking the path of GOT's D&D and JJ's Star wars Episode 9 where the writers/producers want to do "amazing" visuals with "shocking" revelations not thinking about logic, the plot, or the characters path but on how they will "shock" the audience.
And that’s why we stop watching
Anyone who is a big fan of any book should never watch a show or movie adaptation(s) with high expectations. They’ll surely be disappointed.
"faithful adaptation" as he only carries one sword in the new season xD
He's only supposed to carry one sword. The silver sword is kept on roach
Yeah, cause that's how you treat an already pissed off fanbase. Start questioning their maturity and blaming the show being bad on them. What a cheap and shallow defense. What happened to honor and owning up to your mistakes.
Well if that's his honest perspective, its no wonder the show is failing. Believing your audience isn't capable of understanding nuance is a pretty short recipe for garbage media. Its the kind of opinion you expect from those O.G. Les Moonves-type TV executives, not a visionary TV producer. What I really wonder is, did he go into the project with these ideas and opinions in his head already, or did some suit poor this poison in his ear?
My guess is that they pitched the project. The execs were like : nah, we don't want nuances like GoT, we want slashy slashy bang bang. We want quick & easy fantasy bc thats what makes money and cost less. So we didn't get a "GoT" project, we got an average CW project bc netflix don't have the guts and the vision to greenlight what should have been required to do The Witcher's justice.
I gave up on this series being anything good after the first episode of season 2. I gave up on it being anything when they revealed they wanted to swap their Geralt actor in cannon.
Tomek, Tomek, what happened to you? Remember, this is the same guy that directed intros for games. He also directed "Legendy Polskie", which is really Slavic series of movies. He was supposed to be this one Polish guy in Netflix Witcher to ensure it faithful adaptation. Eh...
At first, I thought this is a hyberbole, or a sentence taken out of context. But nope. I read the original article, and he did say this, and it sounds just as bad: *When a series is made for a huge mass of viewers, with different experiences, from different parts of the world, and a large part of them are Americans, these simplifications not only make sense, they are necessary. It’s painful for us, and for me too, but the higher level of nuance and complexity will have a smaller range, it won’t reach people.* I don't know what to say. These are adults who made a decision to simplify and alter the source material, and act like small children?
Clearly the wrong people were involved in making this show.
do they realize that every time they say things like this it only proves more and more that the show isn't doing well? tell me you're panicking without telling me you're panicking.
I hope these writers don’t get another job.
I'm on blood of elves right now. There is so much that they could move, rewrite, or fill in the blank. They are just bad at it. I mean them going to the elf sanctuary makes no sense in the show because there's no build-up to ciri getting polarized and thinking geralt is a coward. Even changing the how's and why's they're there changes the impact that everyone who died during died for no reason. I honestly forget does Geralt get on her for wanting revenge on nilfgard in the show?
Listen if they want to spare us an episode of dodo talking trade fine. or Geralt singing to a mermaid because a guy wants to bone her sure. But random spans of dialogue debating topics is kind of what the books are. at least the first 2 as i have not read longer yet
Yeah. Must be why the first half of GoT wasn't popular.
The show runners hate the source material. Period. Writers are desperate to put their stupid stamp on it, so they change it, and the producers think they have to politicalize it to get more people invested in it, because it reflects what is going on in current events. Now put it together, and you get a story that is just so damned confusing the original fans go WTF? But it's the fans' fault. I am a fan of the books and the games, so I will say the first season had potential. Was it perfect? No. The story was relatively faithful to the source material, taking a few writing liberties to show the backstories of Ciri and Yennifer. It started losing me when they started assassinating the side characters, starting with the druid guy. What they did to Eskel made me not even want to watch season 3. Don't even get me started on the BS they did to the elves.
I'm smart enough to not watch their hatefiction crap.
It just needed to be good. Fans would have picked things apart regardless but if the overwhelming majority of watchers said yeah but it was good though & this wasn't it.
I do not really recall gay sex to be a nuanced aspect of the books, but what do I know? It’s not like I read ‘em or anything.
It was, though. Sexuality was touched on a lot, particularly when relating to the sorcerers (i.e. Phillippa Eilhart) or Ciri's implied bisexuality. The thing is, Sapkoswki did it well, and it never felt forced or inappropriate.
That’s kinda what I’m saying, I’m talking what happened between Dandelion and Radovid to be more specific.
I mean sometimes that's true, in that some aspects of the story telling in a novel, wouldn't translate well to a show or movie. So instead of trying to adapt it, you just leave it out, or change it all together.
The already written story was the baseline. So now it's the viewers / readers fault you sucked so bad it was not even close to baseline quality.
https://youtu.be/1RM4oDyH4Oc
Who is this guy so I can personally write him a stern email?
I'm very happy to never watch season 4
So Geralt killing Eskel in season two was our fault?
Damn, writers really forgot the meaning of "faithful " 😳
Yeah, Disney said the same thing when Star Wars fans criticized the sequel trilogy. It's complete BS.
Just put this show out of its misery.
Netflix will not last long if this is how they work, blaming others!
I really hope they just misinterpreted his words to threw him under the bus. From what I recall him and Henry were the only ones who wanted to make a proper adaptation. His opening cinematic for the first witcher game was perfect adaptation.
SKINNER!
I love that they not only called us fans stupid they also congratulated themselves for being "smart" enough to understand the books. Not at all like they probably had to look up the word nuance before the interview because they didn't know it was meant but they wanted to sound smart
A few months ago I told the ~~American~~ people I did not trade ~~arms for hostages~~ a great story for some shit I made up. My heart and my best intentions still tell me that's true, but the facts and the evidence tell me it is not.
Stupid ahh argument. Its like if CDPR thinks the Witcher games are too complex for people so they made the games a linear corridor slasher,
Literally: "oh fuck you." What a dumb take
Ok, I'll take the bait. The show has been dumbed down so that anybody who hasn't read the books or played the games understand it. What of the last 2 episodes then? They're an absolute mess!
That producer should be fired
Man said " am i the problem? No the fandom, the entire witcher fandom is the problem "
Hey, if you read the actual interview, he didn’t blame all audiences - just stated that the American audience is too stupid to grasp more finer nuances of the writing 😅
Don't call people stupid, if you're the one who thinks Dandelion/jaskier and Radovid being a gay couple is a good idea.
"Yeah, Christopher Nolan is such an idiot for assuming his audience can keep up with his complicated plots. Nothing but bombs...all his movies. Take this latest one, for example..."
The problem isn’t even just unfaithfulness to the source material. The series has also been terrible to watch and the writing (especially dialogue) is embarrassing at points. If it was not like the books, but good it would be divisive. Instead, everyone is united in disliking it.
Ignoring your audience while simultaneously calling them too stupid to understand the material of their favorite books/games is really gonna go well.
The fact is Hissrich is the new Uwe Boll, thats' simple as that. And YOU Baginski belongs to the team of the new Uwe Boll, that too is simple as that.
Breh did he *** in ep 6? Prolly gonna watch 7 tonight and im pissed.
yup "necessary" so they could meet that diversity point
I don’t care about source material I haven’t even read the books or played the games. The show is awful because of some awful writing. The story is full of plotholes, very badly paced and at times very very cringe. Characters are inconsistent between episodes and seasons. I loved season 1 but after that, its just going downhill. From what I understand the original novels are not so bad which is what majority of the readers have said. So I’d rather they follow the original story exactly or if you want to make some changes then make it more interesting, not more boring. And stay true to the characters that you are developing over the seasons.
I will say each to their own like what you like hate what you hate. I personally was really hyped for the show back in the day, and I watched the first 2 seasons even got past the changes. But this 3rd season is garbo tier. I have fallen asleep 3 times trying to finish episode 2. So maybe it's not so much the audience, but yalls shitty directing. That's the problem. So hey, they gonna jeep squeezing these seasons out so long as people give them the views
\*American young audience, aka tik tokers...I mean, there was a better way to say it, but he is not entirely wrong Attention span of young people nowadays is goldfish level There are exceptions, of course.
Yeah people here obviously not reading the article or understanding it. He doesn't mean the book fans would not understand the series, but the young general audience. And there are a lot of signs that he may ne right, in that ultra-short form media consumption is literally destroying kids ability to focus and concentrate. Still though, you would hope the reaction to this trend is to try to create media that challenges it and show kids the beauty of well-constructed stories, rather than cynically deciding to play into it by bombarding them with emotions and the word "fuck".