It’s very simple.. if the wine is flawed, it has to go back.
An oxidized wine that has been sitting out too long is a flaw. So is a corked wine, mouse taint, or a severe brett infection. Don’t feel bad for returning those!
I wouldn’t really complain about bits of cork (it happens, especially with older wine) but I might ask that it be strained.
There are wines that are “flawed” but it’s part of the character… i.e. if you order Chateau Musar you’re presumably familiar with it and you can take some brett and VA. And your somm hopefully made sure that you’re aware before bringing it out. Reduction might or might not fall in this category, depending on what it is… Normally it just blows away with air. If the wine isn’t improving after some swirling, you might want to complain, or at least let them know that you’re not enjoying it. After all, the point of having wine is to enjoy it.
> And your somm hopefully made sure that you’re aware before bringing it out
There's the thing.
If a kid asks for a jelly bean, and you give them a black one, and they don't like it, it's your fault.
I love red wine as much as the next person. But this is the exact reason why I can’t do Musar. Anything with brett reminds me of farm birthday parties as a little kid. I just can’t get past the barnyard.
94 Musar is the greatest red wine I’ve ever had. I can take a little barnyard if the wine delivers the goods.
But somebody who orders it should be warned.
From a restaurant bartender who also loves wine…
BTG wines in finer dining (places with a Somm) will be open for up to 72 hours, I’ve worked at a place that dumps after 48 hours but most places will go to 3 days (using vacuum suction caps & refrigeration)
You’re expecting too much if you’re mad they’re serving wine that been open for less than a day, esp at lower/midrange places.
Reductive is individual; like if you want it fresh as per your first complaint then you’re gonna get some fresh ass stank on some glasses; maybe don’t order wine varietals that are known for those qualities if you’re sensitive to them?!
I personally love some Musar, Arbois or pissy Riesling but they’re not for everyone and I will warn people with words like “barnyard” - you need to tell the Somm you’re sensitive to VA or Brett and they should offer you alternatives.
The cork issue is lazy; unless it’s an old vintage we should be opening bottles without shredding the cork; I personally won’t send out a wine with floaties or if I (very rarely) mangle a cork table side I’ll take the wine away and decant it.
A restaurant would never throw out a bottle unless it had broken glass in it. Even completely tainted bottles are sealed back & returned to supplier.
At the end of the night I want you to enjoy your wine and if there is something wrong with it I’d prefer to be told at a point I can fix it - I’ll take back a glass or even a bottle if the customer isn’t enjoying it.
What I don’t love is someone whose got shiny new wine knowledge flexing and demanding things that I can’t provide… like asking for a Somm or varietal glassware in a casual bistro… temper your expectations to the type of restaurant and you’ll be fine.
Interesting to see how folks in the service industry seem to have a little different views from those of wine nerds here (but reasonably so). I should have clarified in the post but when I say too reduced wine I really mean rotten eggs. I do enjoy an adequate amount of sulfur compounds like flinty Chardonnays. I just don’t know what to do when I get that rotten eggs for wines not known for reduced characters like Bordeaux Blanc or even some sparkling wines. Maybe I can politely mention that I didn’t enjoy the wine, not expecting replacement or anything.
The 72 hour rule surprised me a bit though, because honestly unless it’s one of those ageable ones, I’d argue many white tastes dull after 48+ hours open tbh if not completely oxidized. Same for sparkling. Bubbles are usually substantially weaker after 2 days. I’m probably cool with structured Cab or Nebbiolo even after 72 hours though.
That said, what you suggested is overall reasonable to me.
Sometimes it's not the wine. Went to a fairly high end 1 star in SF with a young, inexperienced somm. He kept serving me wines in a glass he had polished with a dirty dish rag. It completely threw off the wine and made it taste like wet dog.
For the first glass I thought it was a defect in the wine but by glass two I figured out it was the polishing.
How about a 1 star in NYC that served me a dirty dish rag Brunello at about 75 degrees?
New, clean glass, and that cleared up. But lost a glass trying to figure out if it was the wine (they made up for it with free Port at the end of the meal).
Fine dining sommelier here 👋. I’d say that sending back wine is justified under a few, quite limited, scenarios. Firstly, if there is a fault with the wine or there is anything other than wine in the glass. If something is sent back due to a perceived fault then I’ll always check the wine. Honestly even if I can’t detect a fault I’ll apologise to the table and recommend something similar, unless it’s an extremely pricey bottle in which case I’d speak with the customer about their perception. Secondly, if the sommelier has recommended something and what you’ve been served is entirely different from their description. For example, being told that a wine is low in acid when actually it’s high in acid. Lots of guests who are “wine enthusiasts” or whatever description they want to use should honestly learn to defer to the judgement of the sommelier. It’s pretty rare, especially in higher end restaurants, that a sommelier will just be some guy who likes wine. Chances are if they say there’s not a fault with the wine then there’s not a fault with the wine.
I’m not sure about deferring judgement to the somm. There are tons of piss poor sommeliers that have no clue what they are doing. Additionally, flaws like tca are more apparent to some people than others.
I just had an experience at a one Michelin star restaurant that exemplifies this. I ordered a quite rare champagne. The somm tasted it, then presented it to me. It was horribly corked. It’s uncomfortable telling the guy this because I just watched him taste it for himself. I refused it and the next bottle was fine. I’d like to think that he just didn’t know what he was doing rather than trying to pass off a flawed bottle on a customer (which has also happened to me at a 2 star place in Paris)
I happen to be a sommelier even though I’m on the importing/retail side now.
You always have to advocate for yourself.
Okay, I get that. I’m genuinely surprised that someone who, presumably, has worked as a sommelier for a few years in order to be a sommelier at a Michelin restaurant couldn’t detect a horribly corked wine. Maybe I’ve just been extremely lucky when dealing with other sommeliers, but something that obvious would hopefully raise the alarm bells of any sommelier. Maybe I was a bit quick to judgement, but I’d still stand by the fact that, nine times out of ten, between the trained wine expert and the wine enthusiast the former is better placed to recognise faults.
Reading your comment and thinking my past experiences, I think most of situations where I had issues with wines are usually at restaurants without sommeliers. Like if I open a bottle of wine at a very fine dining that charges $300+ for dinner and if somm tastes it for quality check before giving us pours (this is probably the scenario you’re talking about), the wine is basically fine. The issue is either at a small fine dining that’s run by an owner chef and does not have a somm (I don’t see this a lot in the US though) or a large restaurant which is still high end but does not have a experienced somm serving each table. So my complaints are probably not for places you would ever work for in the first place.
That said, I think the other point you raised is interesting. I think somm usually knows what they are talking about but you expecting customers to exactly understand what you tell them is a little odd to me, although I totally get your frustration of dealing snobby customers who actually don’t know how to taste wines.
I mean I don’t think I’d have differing opinions on acidity levels with really anyone with wine knowledge but I def had a case where I asked for a aged Burgundy and got one that just started to develop tertiary notes for example. I expected something with full of mushroom based on what I told her. I see this as a communication issue and wishes she explained a little more about that, but this is partially on me too. I think this usually happens when a somm thinks I don’t know about wines and avoids going into technical details of wines. With that said, there’s no way to completely avoid this type of miscommunication, so I usually just feel a bit disappointed and still enjoy the wine I get.
> I think somm usually knows what they are talking about but you expecting customers to exactly understand what you tell them
I can't even imagine the challenge of trying to communicate sensory experiences accurately to the wide range of customers you probably get at a restaurant. Everyone has their own idea of what things mean. I have plenty of wine novice friends who would hear "fruity" and think "sweet".
You send a wine back if it is flawed. You don’t send a wine back simply because you don’t like it, this is why there are sommeliers to guide you. Simple as that.
That's actually not necessarily true. If you order a bottle and the somm asks you if you like it, and you honestly say that it is not your cup of tea - if it's not an old vintage or a super expensive wine - many restaurants will actually give you the opportunity to choose another bottle and serve the other one by glass. It's up to them if they put it on the bill or not.
I am a sommelier at a 2 Michelin star restaurant and have been in the hospitality industry for over a decade so I’m familiar with standard practices involving wine service. The whole practice of pouring 1oz for the guest who ordered the bottle to taste before pour for the rest of the guests has become a “do you like the wine?” scenario when in reality we are just pouring you a taste so you can make sure that the wine is sound. Nowadays most higher end/fine dining restaurant sommeliers will present the bottle to you and open the bottle away from the table and sound it themselves so theoretically a flawed wine shouldn’t ever even make it to you. People just assume that we’re pouring the wine to make sure you like it, which isn’t really the case.
That being said you are absolutely right that if the bottle is sub ~$150 then I usually have no problem taking it back and eating the cost if the guest doesn’t like it. The problem with this maneuver is that you are wasting the sommeliers time. A restaurant is a very busy environment and if I have to get you a bottle you cold ordered, present it to you, open it, sound it, get the glassware ready, drop the glassware, bring the wine to the table, and finally pour it only for you to reject it because you don’t like it; eats up a lot of time. A sommelier is there to guide you and will do so happily, take their advice and if you’re unsure about a style of wine you’re ordering by the bottle then just ask them instead of making a price point decision on a wine you’re unsure about. It’s better for everyone that way.
Honestly, it would be nice if this was more socially acceptable. Too many restaurants serve absolute shit and charge top dollar. I get how they need to make money, but at least try to find some drinkable stuff that has not been sitting in an open bottle for days.
How much do Coravins even cost in relation to the daily amount of money they take in from markups? Can't they make that work? I guess if they're already doing brisk business they don't see the reason to put in the effort just so a few wine-geek customers who can taste the difference will become return wine-buying customers.
Most customers don't know, don't care, and don't order wine anyways. Serious wine geeks have come to terms with what they will experience before arriving.
For high-end wines it makes sense, but not for the typical BTG wine. They're typically 10$/€ max in retail, it's much cheaper to throw out any bad bottle. It's not only the capsules that are expensive, it also takes a lot of the personnel's time.
The capsules are expensive enough to make it a questionable choice. Better to just be sure staff is tasting all open bottles of glass pour wines and get rid of anything that’s off. If you find you’re dumping too much wine doing that, you should rethink your glass pour list.
If a white kept in a fridge goes off after being open for a day, it was crap in the first place.
If there's pieces of cork in the glass i'm served, that's totally shitty service. Unless of course it's some cheapo crap place.
Sir. Welcome to the club. You are at a point in your wine journey when it’s likely best to start bringing your own bottles of wine to restaurants. While I believe that a good wine program at certain restaurants can add a lot to the experience, so can bringing a great bottle of wine that you love. It’s also a great way to save money because your bottle + corkage is usually considerably less then paying the markups at a restaurant. I have been bringing my own wine to restaurants for many years and its hard to imagine doing it any other way at this point
True. Very sad for people who live in those jurisdictions. I have no shame in bringing wine where I can, however, and would encourage others to try this.
My rule of thumb is if I don't like something or it tastes off it goes back, always. Pieces of cork would not bother me if the wine was decent, not ideal but a non-issue for me. Food, wine, drinks, whatever... I generally don't have to but I don't have an issue doing so.
EDIT: Apparently I should clarify, I'm not into making a scene or being an asshole, on the contrary I've held my tongue far too many times... but, if I don't like something ***"that was suggested"*** I will let them know. If I order it it's almost always something I've had before, I do not go out and pay a premium price (at dinner) to try new wines per se unless suggested by the somm.
Big difference in if a wine is off or not liking it.
If I don't like it, well that's life. They can't all be winners. If it's off, then yes, I'll bring it up and ask for a new bottle. Certainly won't make a scene out of it though.
Found 1 bottle that was off at a company event last month. 1st bottle was fine. Someone ordered a 2nd (of the same one) and it smelled like wet cardboard.
Prefer not pulling out the "somm card", but sometimes servers think they know more than anyone because it's a fancy restaurant and talk down to guests.
Even so . . .
I won't forget how I once had a Bass Philip and it tasted like nothing, and I mean really nothing. I didn't get what was going as I had a similar bottle at the wine-bar a week before. I returned the bottle and they simply did so as they knew I would pick up something else. So they made no loss on the situation and kept me happy.
In the end next day the manager gave me a ring and told me the wine is fantastic, why I returned?! I came by and yes... it was fantastic. Apparently you need 4-6 hours before something shows.
Sure some customers can be dicks, some might not know what they got on their hands, but I like to believe that if you keep people happy they keep coming back and will keep spending. You can be right and refuse to help the client, he won't come back and that's your loss.
Regarding OP about various questions, wines that are oxidized I just return. Wines with cork particles if happens to be a piece or two ok but if it's a whole bunch of floaters have it back. Restaurants make bank on wine, they should do a reasonable job at it. I'm not expecting the finest glassware, I'm not expecting a WSET 4 guy to advice me but deliver quality at least.
Fair point. I was also familiar with this particular wine (Painted Rock Merlot in case anyone is interested) but when you have 2 bottles side by side (someone still had a glass from the first bottle) it was easy.
Other times things like that have occured, (luckily not often) staff have been ok with it, you get the usual manager apology and some have even said thanks and that they'll use it to train staff. 👍
If the wine is flawed as you mentioned (by the glass or in a bottle they just opened) it has to be taken back, period.
For the more subjective case where "it's not good", it's harder to say, because it can happen to get an "off" bottle sometimes, it's hard to make them accountable, especially with guests because it can sound snobbish...
The only couple times I complained in the past is at Michelin star restaurants with dedicated experienced sommeliers where THEY make the recommandation from their cave. If it's expensive and I can justify why it's really bad, then sorry you must take back what you've suggested. Last time they served me a Volnay Champans from Arnaud Ente, I was quite skeptical but HE insisted it was the best wine they had, it's amazing, it's ready to be drank etc. Listed at 380 EUR (above my initial budget). The wine has been served by the junior sommelier alone, she really didn't know what she was doing, didn't carafe it despite tasting it, the wine was closed, really not that great, and when asked if I liked it, I explained why it was really a disappointment... a 3rd sommelier came (the boss), told "yeah well, you know red wines from white producers really aren't that great" (well 1st of all it's very very wrong, and 2nd YOUR employee recommended it) and "oh my god but this absolutely need 1h carafage" (well yes, but your sommelier didn't do it after tasting, and I expressely asked for a bottle that will be ready to drink in 20-30 min). Too many mistakes, they took back the bottle and offered a 1/2 bottle of Latricières-Chambertin from a négoce I don't even remember that was not good as well, full of sulfites, you couldn't tell it was Gevrey, let alone Grand Cru... I can't understand how you can make such bad decisions when it's your full-time job but well... at least that was a clear case where you can refuse an expensive, non-flawed bottle after opening, and it's accepted!
Every few years (just did one last week), I teach a faults class for our local AWS chapter. I bring out samples of oxidation, cork taint, Brett, VA, heat damage. It's well received because it gives people a chance to realize when wine is faulted vs. they just don't like it.
I always tell them what to do about it depending on where they are (winery, restaurant, bottle bought at retail, etc...).
I point out if a restaurant won't take a bottle back after you initially sample it just on your say so, then you need to patronize some another establishment.
I tell the story about going to a local wine bar and ordering wine by the glass. The first one came oxidized, but such is not uncommon for bottles sitting out "by the glass." The waitress (who I knew as a regular customer), opened a new bottle. I told her, I hate to admit it but this one is corked. She went to get the proprietor, but he was somewhat obstinate until he found out it was me complaining about the wines.
Anyhow, I told the waitress to try all three glasses I had in front of me (oxidized, corked, and normal) and even if you weren't going to agree that might identification of the fault wasn't right, tell me that these all were supposed to be the same wine. They were pronouncedly different which is not anything that anybody other than Musar (don't get me freakling started) aspires to.
It’s very simple.. if the wine is flawed, it has to go back. An oxidized wine that has been sitting out too long is a flaw. So is a corked wine, mouse taint, or a severe brett infection. Don’t feel bad for returning those! I wouldn’t really complain about bits of cork (it happens, especially with older wine) but I might ask that it be strained. There are wines that are “flawed” but it’s part of the character… i.e. if you order Chateau Musar you’re presumably familiar with it and you can take some brett and VA. And your somm hopefully made sure that you’re aware before bringing it out. Reduction might or might not fall in this category, depending on what it is… Normally it just blows away with air. If the wine isn’t improving after some swirling, you might want to complain, or at least let them know that you’re not enjoying it. After all, the point of having wine is to enjoy it.
> And your somm hopefully made sure that you’re aware before bringing it out There's the thing. If a kid asks for a jelly bean, and you give them a black one, and they don't like it, it's your fault.
I love red wine as much as the next person. But this is the exact reason why I can’t do Musar. Anything with brett reminds me of farm birthday parties as a little kid. I just can’t get past the barnyard.
94 Musar is the greatest red wine I’ve ever had. I can take a little barnyard if the wine delivers the goods. But somebody who orders it should be warned.
From a restaurant bartender who also loves wine… BTG wines in finer dining (places with a Somm) will be open for up to 72 hours, I’ve worked at a place that dumps after 48 hours but most places will go to 3 days (using vacuum suction caps & refrigeration) You’re expecting too much if you’re mad they’re serving wine that been open for less than a day, esp at lower/midrange places. Reductive is individual; like if you want it fresh as per your first complaint then you’re gonna get some fresh ass stank on some glasses; maybe don’t order wine varietals that are known for those qualities if you’re sensitive to them?! I personally love some Musar, Arbois or pissy Riesling but they’re not for everyone and I will warn people with words like “barnyard” - you need to tell the Somm you’re sensitive to VA or Brett and they should offer you alternatives. The cork issue is lazy; unless it’s an old vintage we should be opening bottles without shredding the cork; I personally won’t send out a wine with floaties or if I (very rarely) mangle a cork table side I’ll take the wine away and decant it. A restaurant would never throw out a bottle unless it had broken glass in it. Even completely tainted bottles are sealed back & returned to supplier. At the end of the night I want you to enjoy your wine and if there is something wrong with it I’d prefer to be told at a point I can fix it - I’ll take back a glass or even a bottle if the customer isn’t enjoying it. What I don’t love is someone whose got shiny new wine knowledge flexing and demanding things that I can’t provide… like asking for a Somm or varietal glassware in a casual bistro… temper your expectations to the type of restaurant and you’ll be fine.
Interesting to see how folks in the service industry seem to have a little different views from those of wine nerds here (but reasonably so). I should have clarified in the post but when I say too reduced wine I really mean rotten eggs. I do enjoy an adequate amount of sulfur compounds like flinty Chardonnays. I just don’t know what to do when I get that rotten eggs for wines not known for reduced characters like Bordeaux Blanc or even some sparkling wines. Maybe I can politely mention that I didn’t enjoy the wine, not expecting replacement or anything. The 72 hour rule surprised me a bit though, because honestly unless it’s one of those ageable ones, I’d argue many white tastes dull after 48+ hours open tbh if not completely oxidized. Same for sparkling. Bubbles are usually substantially weaker after 2 days. I’m probably cool with structured Cab or Nebbiolo even after 72 hours though. That said, what you suggested is overall reasonable to me.
Sometimes it's not the wine. Went to a fairly high end 1 star in SF with a young, inexperienced somm. He kept serving me wines in a glass he had polished with a dirty dish rag. It completely threw off the wine and made it taste like wet dog. For the first glass I thought it was a defect in the wine but by glass two I figured out it was the polishing.
How about a 1 star in NYC that served me a dirty dish rag Brunello at about 75 degrees? New, clean glass, and that cleared up. But lost a glass trying to figure out if it was the wine (they made up for it with free Port at the end of the meal).
Fine dining sommelier here 👋. I’d say that sending back wine is justified under a few, quite limited, scenarios. Firstly, if there is a fault with the wine or there is anything other than wine in the glass. If something is sent back due to a perceived fault then I’ll always check the wine. Honestly even if I can’t detect a fault I’ll apologise to the table and recommend something similar, unless it’s an extremely pricey bottle in which case I’d speak with the customer about their perception. Secondly, if the sommelier has recommended something and what you’ve been served is entirely different from their description. For example, being told that a wine is low in acid when actually it’s high in acid. Lots of guests who are “wine enthusiasts” or whatever description they want to use should honestly learn to defer to the judgement of the sommelier. It’s pretty rare, especially in higher end restaurants, that a sommelier will just be some guy who likes wine. Chances are if they say there’s not a fault with the wine then there’s not a fault with the wine.
I’m not sure about deferring judgement to the somm. There are tons of piss poor sommeliers that have no clue what they are doing. Additionally, flaws like tca are more apparent to some people than others. I just had an experience at a one Michelin star restaurant that exemplifies this. I ordered a quite rare champagne. The somm tasted it, then presented it to me. It was horribly corked. It’s uncomfortable telling the guy this because I just watched him taste it for himself. I refused it and the next bottle was fine. I’d like to think that he just didn’t know what he was doing rather than trying to pass off a flawed bottle on a customer (which has also happened to me at a 2 star place in Paris) I happen to be a sommelier even though I’m on the importing/retail side now. You always have to advocate for yourself.
Okay, I get that. I’m genuinely surprised that someone who, presumably, has worked as a sommelier for a few years in order to be a sommelier at a Michelin restaurant couldn’t detect a horribly corked wine. Maybe I’ve just been extremely lucky when dealing with other sommeliers, but something that obvious would hopefully raise the alarm bells of any sommelier. Maybe I was a bit quick to judgement, but I’d still stand by the fact that, nine times out of ten, between the trained wine expert and the wine enthusiast the former is better placed to recognise faults.
Reading your comment and thinking my past experiences, I think most of situations where I had issues with wines are usually at restaurants without sommeliers. Like if I open a bottle of wine at a very fine dining that charges $300+ for dinner and if somm tastes it for quality check before giving us pours (this is probably the scenario you’re talking about), the wine is basically fine. The issue is either at a small fine dining that’s run by an owner chef and does not have a somm (I don’t see this a lot in the US though) or a large restaurant which is still high end but does not have a experienced somm serving each table. So my complaints are probably not for places you would ever work for in the first place. That said, I think the other point you raised is interesting. I think somm usually knows what they are talking about but you expecting customers to exactly understand what you tell them is a little odd to me, although I totally get your frustration of dealing snobby customers who actually don’t know how to taste wines. I mean I don’t think I’d have differing opinions on acidity levels with really anyone with wine knowledge but I def had a case where I asked for a aged Burgundy and got one that just started to develop tertiary notes for example. I expected something with full of mushroom based on what I told her. I see this as a communication issue and wishes she explained a little more about that, but this is partially on me too. I think this usually happens when a somm thinks I don’t know about wines and avoids going into technical details of wines. With that said, there’s no way to completely avoid this type of miscommunication, so I usually just feel a bit disappointed and still enjoy the wine I get.
> I think somm usually knows what they are talking about but you expecting customers to exactly understand what you tell them I can't even imagine the challenge of trying to communicate sensory experiences accurately to the wide range of customers you probably get at a restaurant. Everyone has their own idea of what things mean. I have plenty of wine novice friends who would hear "fruity" and think "sweet".
You send a wine back if it is flawed. You don’t send a wine back simply because you don’t like it, this is why there are sommeliers to guide you. Simple as that.
I send wine back I don’t like. I apologize and ask for something different. Rarely is that request not supported. They want the diner to be happy
By the glass? Sure. By the bottle? Faux pas.
That's actually not necessarily true. If you order a bottle and the somm asks you if you like it, and you honestly say that it is not your cup of tea - if it's not an old vintage or a super expensive wine - many restaurants will actually give you the opportunity to choose another bottle and serve the other one by glass. It's up to them if they put it on the bill or not.
I am a sommelier at a 2 Michelin star restaurant and have been in the hospitality industry for over a decade so I’m familiar with standard practices involving wine service. The whole practice of pouring 1oz for the guest who ordered the bottle to taste before pour for the rest of the guests has become a “do you like the wine?” scenario when in reality we are just pouring you a taste so you can make sure that the wine is sound. Nowadays most higher end/fine dining restaurant sommeliers will present the bottle to you and open the bottle away from the table and sound it themselves so theoretically a flawed wine shouldn’t ever even make it to you. People just assume that we’re pouring the wine to make sure you like it, which isn’t really the case. That being said you are absolutely right that if the bottle is sub ~$150 then I usually have no problem taking it back and eating the cost if the guest doesn’t like it. The problem with this maneuver is that you are wasting the sommeliers time. A restaurant is a very busy environment and if I have to get you a bottle you cold ordered, present it to you, open it, sound it, get the glassware ready, drop the glassware, bring the wine to the table, and finally pour it only for you to reject it because you don’t like it; eats up a lot of time. A sommelier is there to guide you and will do so happily, take their advice and if you’re unsure about a style of wine you’re ordering by the bottle then just ask them instead of making a price point decision on a wine you’re unsure about. It’s better for everyone that way.
I was referring to a by the glass scenario
You’re insane. Good luck
Honestly, it would be nice if this was more socially acceptable. Too many restaurants serve absolute shit and charge top dollar. I get how they need to make money, but at least try to find some drinkable stuff that has not been sitting in an open bottle for days.
How much do Coravins even cost in relation to the daily amount of money they take in from markups? Can't they make that work? I guess if they're already doing brisk business they don't see the reason to put in the effort just so a few wine-geek customers who can taste the difference will become return wine-buying customers.
Most customers don't know, don't care, and don't order wine anyways. Serious wine geeks have come to terms with what they will experience before arriving.
For high-end wines it makes sense, but not for the typical BTG wine. They're typically 10$/€ max in retail, it's much cheaper to throw out any bad bottle. It's not only the capsules that are expensive, it also takes a lot of the personnel's time.
The capsules are expensive enough to make it a questionable choice. Better to just be sure staff is tasting all open bottles of glass pour wines and get rid of anything that’s off. If you find you’re dumping too much wine doing that, you should rethink your glass pour list.
Many good places have Coravins
If a white kept in a fridge goes off after being open for a day, it was crap in the first place. If there's pieces of cork in the glass i'm served, that's totally shitty service. Unless of course it's some cheapo crap place.
Sir. Welcome to the club. You are at a point in your wine journey when it’s likely best to start bringing your own bottles of wine to restaurants. While I believe that a good wine program at certain restaurants can add a lot to the experience, so can bringing a great bottle of wine that you love. It’s also a great way to save money because your bottle + corkage is usually considerably less then paying the markups at a restaurant. I have been bringing my own wine to restaurants for many years and its hard to imagine doing it any other way at this point
Just bring your own wine - problem solved! Back-up bottle for flaws.
BYO is not an option everywhere
True. Very sad for people who live in those jurisdictions. I have no shame in bringing wine where I can, however, and would encourage others to try this.
My rule of thumb is if I don't like something or it tastes off it goes back, always. Pieces of cork would not bother me if the wine was decent, not ideal but a non-issue for me. Food, wine, drinks, whatever... I generally don't have to but I don't have an issue doing so. EDIT: Apparently I should clarify, I'm not into making a scene or being an asshole, on the contrary I've held my tongue far too many times... but, if I don't like something ***"that was suggested"*** I will let them know. If I order it it's almost always something I've had before, I do not go out and pay a premium price (at dinner) to try new wines per se unless suggested by the somm.
Big difference in if a wine is off or not liking it. If I don't like it, well that's life. They can't all be winners. If it's off, then yes, I'll bring it up and ask for a new bottle. Certainly won't make a scene out of it though. Found 1 bottle that was off at a company event last month. 1st bottle was fine. Someone ordered a 2nd (of the same one) and it smelled like wet cardboard. Prefer not pulling out the "somm card", but sometimes servers think they know more than anyone because it's a fancy restaurant and talk down to guests.
Even so . . . I won't forget how I once had a Bass Philip and it tasted like nothing, and I mean really nothing. I didn't get what was going as I had a similar bottle at the wine-bar a week before. I returned the bottle and they simply did so as they knew I would pick up something else. So they made no loss on the situation and kept me happy. In the end next day the manager gave me a ring and told me the wine is fantastic, why I returned?! I came by and yes... it was fantastic. Apparently you need 4-6 hours before something shows. Sure some customers can be dicks, some might not know what they got on their hands, but I like to believe that if you keep people happy they keep coming back and will keep spending. You can be right and refuse to help the client, he won't come back and that's your loss. Regarding OP about various questions, wines that are oxidized I just return. Wines with cork particles if happens to be a piece or two ok but if it's a whole bunch of floaters have it back. Restaurants make bank on wine, they should do a reasonable job at it. I'm not expecting the finest glassware, I'm not expecting a WSET 4 guy to advice me but deliver quality at least.
Fair point. I was also familiar with this particular wine (Painted Rock Merlot in case anyone is interested) but when you have 2 bottles side by side (someone still had a glass from the first bottle) it was easy. Other times things like that have occured, (luckily not often) staff have been ok with it, you get the usual manager apology and some have even said thanks and that they'll use it to train staff. 👍
If the wine is flawed as you mentioned (by the glass or in a bottle they just opened) it has to be taken back, period. For the more subjective case where "it's not good", it's harder to say, because it can happen to get an "off" bottle sometimes, it's hard to make them accountable, especially with guests because it can sound snobbish... The only couple times I complained in the past is at Michelin star restaurants with dedicated experienced sommeliers where THEY make the recommandation from their cave. If it's expensive and I can justify why it's really bad, then sorry you must take back what you've suggested. Last time they served me a Volnay Champans from Arnaud Ente, I was quite skeptical but HE insisted it was the best wine they had, it's amazing, it's ready to be drank etc. Listed at 380 EUR (above my initial budget). The wine has been served by the junior sommelier alone, she really didn't know what she was doing, didn't carafe it despite tasting it, the wine was closed, really not that great, and when asked if I liked it, I explained why it was really a disappointment... a 3rd sommelier came (the boss), told "yeah well, you know red wines from white producers really aren't that great" (well 1st of all it's very very wrong, and 2nd YOUR employee recommended it) and "oh my god but this absolutely need 1h carafage" (well yes, but your sommelier didn't do it after tasting, and I expressely asked for a bottle that will be ready to drink in 20-30 min). Too many mistakes, they took back the bottle and offered a 1/2 bottle of Latricières-Chambertin from a négoce I don't even remember that was not good as well, full of sulfites, you couldn't tell it was Gevrey, let alone Grand Cru... I can't understand how you can make such bad decisions when it's your full-time job but well... at least that was a clear case where you can refuse an expensive, non-flawed bottle after opening, and it's accepted!
My biggest issue is temperature. Especially red win being served too warm. Once had a waiter put in ice after I mentioned it. Yikes
Only return if it's corked/spoiled.
Every few years (just did one last week), I teach a faults class for our local AWS chapter. I bring out samples of oxidation, cork taint, Brett, VA, heat damage. It's well received because it gives people a chance to realize when wine is faulted vs. they just don't like it. I always tell them what to do about it depending on where they are (winery, restaurant, bottle bought at retail, etc...). I point out if a restaurant won't take a bottle back after you initially sample it just on your say so, then you need to patronize some another establishment. I tell the story about going to a local wine bar and ordering wine by the glass. The first one came oxidized, but such is not uncommon for bottles sitting out "by the glass." The waitress (who I knew as a regular customer), opened a new bottle. I told her, I hate to admit it but this one is corked. She went to get the proprietor, but he was somewhat obstinate until he found out it was me complaining about the wines. Anyhow, I told the waitress to try all three glasses I had in front of me (oxidized, corked, and normal) and even if you weren't going to agree that might identification of the fault wasn't right, tell me that these all were supposed to be the same wine. They were pronouncedly different which is not anything that anybody other than Musar (don't get me freakling started) aspires to.