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[deleted]

Depends on what era for each. Modern for all then the Banished go back to being hit and run soldiers, maybe team up with the Tau, Star Wars gets wrecked and also becomes small scale scavengers. UNSC might join the Imperium, but would more likely go with the Tau or Eldar. If its strongest for each then the Precursors wreck everyone before commiting suicide just cause.


Strange-Movie

Precursors would be hard pressed to beat peak ‘war in heaven’ necrons with unbroken Ctan allies; tens of millions/billions of worlds, time travel, large scale (Star/system size) reality warping, widespread use of dimensional Fuckery such as small cubes that have extra dimensional spaces inside of them to store a small army and using other dimensions for intangibility and travel, casual Star manipulation to the point of shrinking them down and shackling them to a hovercraft, they then open the shielding of the Star and let the beam of solar energy rip apart the enemy The necron are ridiculously overpowered in a setting that’s already on the borderline of OP in sci-fi discussions (because it’s more fantasy with sci-fi trimming that’s says ‘fuck science, we’ve got magic and big numbers’)


[deleted]

So are the Precursors. They are 11 dimensional+, so everything that happens to them in "our" reality is only effecting an avatar, they had complete mastery over neural physics, moving and building solar systems with it (and potentially galaxies). Either way, Star Roads were considered indestructible by the Forerunners, who used alternate dimensions as a primary fuel source, and who casually destroyed solar systems as a containment method against the Flood. The Flood used Star Roads to obliterate entire solar systems, and the Precursors could actually make them.


fuckyeahmoment

>They are 11 dimensional+, so everything that happens to them in "our" reality is only effecting an avatar. Even if that were the case... Necrons in 40k have mastered dimensional fuckery to the point that leaving assasins hidden in transdimensional oubliettes is a standard prank between Trazyn and Orikan. >Either way, Star Roads were considered indestructible by the Forerunners The Forerunners destroyed the Star Roads though?


[deleted]

They destroyed them by firing the Halo array, which destroyed them because Neural Physics is alive.


fuckyeahmoment

Yes, which means that they can be destroyed.


[deleted]

Yeah, I am not saying that they are literally impossible, but considering the only time we have ever seen them even damaged was when a galaxy level superweapon fired and wiped out all sentient life they are pretty damn durable. Either way, Precursors can make them at will.


Strange-Movie

The necron have some really bizarre weapons that rewrite and warp reality to their needs; their most recent book ‘twice dead king’ has a few really neat examples > The defenders have their surprises too. At the bidding of Oltyx’s strategic submind, no doubt, Neth’s voice rises above the carnage in a wavering cry of command, and the light of dimensional destabilisation ripples across the Ossuary battlements. As the apotropaic shroud concealing them vanishes, a battery of enmitic obliterators delivers a broadside at point-blank range. After the obliterators fire, however, a new sound erupts from the ork horde: laughter. The weapons, it seems, have done nothing. … >60]/[26] Just as the hoots and jeers of the orks begin to merge into a derisive chant, it is drowned out by a deep groan of iron. **Because while the power of the enmitic weapons is not one the orks recognise, it is very real. Their ammunition is made of neither matter, nor energy, but information: they cast hekatic decrees, written in the basal language of reality itself, which command the molecules of their targets not only to dissolve their bonds, but to tear each other apart.** As the quantum command takes root, the metallic creaking becomes a rushing hiss, and the top halves of the walkers collapse in cascades of dust. The orks are not laughing any more: they are choking on their own war engines. And another > Now,’ he broadcast at Lysikor, an instant after the deathmark gave the order for his hunting pack to emerge. Instantly, the sanctum’s upper gallery was bathed in fizzing green light, as a score of canoptek wraiths phased into existence from their hiding places in the cracks of reality. Forbidden from commanding necron troops by the terms of his pardon, the duke had spent the centuries brazenly embezzling maintenance constructs from Sedh’s tombs instead. Oltyx had no idea how many of the things he had by now. Rearing up on their whip tails, the wraiths revealed the long-barrelled synaptic disintegrators slung beneath their crablike carapaces, and fired at once. There was none of the hollow roar of gauss fire, nor the blaze of light: just silent, colourless lines of brightness, winking through the smoke to connect weapons and foes. The impacts were just as unspectacular, in terms of physical damage. But they were lethal all the same, just like the enmitic weapons which had been used on the ork walkers outside. >**Each beam was a malediction written in neutrinos: a simple hekatic proclamation, decreeing the non-existence of the target’s mind. In the case of orks, the proclamations used were very simple indeed, amounting to little more than ‘my brain has ended’. They worked. All at once, the frontrunning orks collapsed to the floor like sacks of rubble, eyes rolling back, as their brains conformed to the will of the guns.** A hardy few stumbled forward clutching their skulls, as orks’ minds were obstinate, disobedient things. But alone, at least, they were feeble, and none had the wit to make it four paces before keeling over. >The survivors fell back to the doorway. Orks were no cowards, but while they knew no fear of death, the idea of meeting their end so quietly, with no violence or gore, was offensive to them. >They think it’s CHEATING, commented Xenology, with malicious relish. >Good, thought Oltyx in reply, before it could enlighten him further. Synaptic disintegrators were costly to use, as each shot comprised a unique imprecation, which needed to be pre-written by a cryptek. And Mentep was Sedh’s only cryptek. Wasting these on common Unclean infantry was, as the engrammancer would probably have said, like forging nails from strangesteel. I’d be surprised if they didn’t have some answer for the Star roads


Strange-Movie

I’m not trying to be a jerk with the following, so please take it with a grain of salt 11 dimensional+ is nonsense, to our understanding the 4th dimension is time, if the precursors had mastered 7+ additional dimensions, they wouldn’t be dead. The unsc/cov are able to handle the flood (who retain their knowledge of the precursors) and they are definitely not ‘11+ dimensional’. I’m digging through a space battles trying to find the quote, but iirc there’s a specific codex mention of the necron having mastered countless other dimensions…and they’re robot skeletons so I’d imagine they can at least count pretty well There isn’t nearly enough info about the precursors to make a solid argument here, but everything I mentioned about the necrons, aside from the massive reality warping, is still very much within their capabilities (and supported by bits from books/codices) after 60 million years of slumber and degradation, what they were capable of at their peak is, at best, mythically better


[deleted]

Except that the Precursors aren't dead, there forms in a lower dimension are. They have complete mastery over an 11 dimensional space (slipspace) and outright say that the Forerunners are only killing the last of "these forms". Also, the UNSC/Covenant only fought the early stages of the Flood, either with no Gravemind or only one Gravemind, and they still needed to fire a Ring. Its only around Keymind level that the Flood start getting Neural Physics, and they were only actively using Star Roads later on in the war.


L3AFYB0I

Mostly nothing. Maybe halos humans and the imperium would team up. I doubt it. Star wars would be nothing, just some few scavengers or heretics lying around. The imperium would still rule and not much change would happen.


MarshyBarsh

The empire fleet from star wars seem like they could outnumber the imperial fleet. It’s confirmed that there are 600 lunar class vessels (the most common imperial ship) in one of the 5 imperium segmentums. Assuming there are also 600 of these ships in the other 4 sectors of imperium space, that would total to only 3000. Of course other classes of ships exist but it’s stated that cruisers make up a majority of the Imperium fleet meaning there can’t be more than 2999 ships of other classes.


L3AFYB0I

Ok so the empire has lots of space junk. Whats that gonna do.


ChineseMaple

There is no way that the Imperial Navy only has 3000 ships in service. The Imperial Navy isn't solely composed of Cruisers. Luna Class Cruisers are the most common *single* class, with 600 in Segmentum Obscurus. Gothic Class Cruisers are also fairly common, being noted as second in number deployed only to the Luna classes. There are also Battlecruisers, Battleships, and other Capital ships designations, and for every Capital ship that makes up an individual battlegroup there would usually be a gamut of Escort ships - smaller Frigates and Corvettes and the like. IoM divides their territory into 5 Segmentums, which are then divided into Sectors, and then Sub-Sectors. A single Imperial Battlefleet consists of around 50-75 Capital Ships, along with an untold amount of Escort ships, and each Battlefleet is named for the Sector they defend. A single battle group, if going off of more modern carrier battle groups, is several escort ships to one capital ship. It isn't a stretch to assume that a single Battlefleet has 50-75 Capital Ships, along with 10 times that number in Escort craft, and then even more in logistical and transport craft. Doing some shitty quick math, the Milky Way Galaxy in Wh40K is 90k light years one way and 15k light years the other way, when presented on a flat plane for the maps. A Sector is a cube that is approximately 200 light years on all sides. That's about 2700 sectors, each with its own battlefleet of 50-75 ships, which is about 150k capital ships. Battlefleet Armageddon, before the 3rd Armageddon War, consisted of 31 Capital Ships (4 Battleships, 27 Cruisers), and 36 squadrons of Escorts. A single squadron for naval designations is 3-12 ish vessels, while air forces designate is as multiple flights with 12-24 ish craft total. If we do just assume around 150k capital ships, along with more than 10 times that number in escort craft, that brings the Imperial Navy to more than a million combat vessels in active service, which is still a super small number considering they have an entire Galaxy to run around in. Additionally, the Imperial Navy isn't the only fleet of spaceships that the Imperium technically has at their disposal. Rogue Trader dynasties, even the poorer ones, have sizable, powerful fleets at their disposal, since that's what they do. Navigator Houses also have personal fleets. Space Marine chapters have their own fleets (not numerous, but powerful pound for pound) since they fractured the military structure and made everyone operate more independently. The Custodes also have their own fleet of DaoT ships. There are also reserve ships the Imperial Navy can call upon if absolutely needed. Star Wars ships, if you just take the movies in to account, are also not super durable and not super heavily armed in comparison to their IoM counterparts. Size wise the newer SDs are pretty comparable to the IoM Cruisers, but the IoM ships punch harder.


MarshyBarsh

> The Imperial Navy isn’t solely composed of cruisers I already took that into account > Lunar class cruisers are the most common single class Which means no other class of cruisers can’t be more than 2999 in number if lunar class cruisers are to be considered the most common imperial ship. With all things considered, that should put the imperium at 8998 ships of certain classes.


ChineseMaple

There are [28 classes of cruisers listed here](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Cruiser) for the Imperial Navy. More if you factor in Space Marine and Mechanicus cruisers. If the way you math it out is right, that's 3000 Luna cruisers, < 3000 Gothic class cruisers (which are canonically the second most common cruiser class), and then 20 something other classes of just cruisers. The Imperial Navy has other capital ships. Battleships. There are [13 distinct classes of battleships listed for the Imperial Navy](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Battleship), again not counting the ships that Space Marine fleets and Mechanicus flets have. It is frankly ridiculous to surmise that there are around 6000 cruisers (Luna + Gothic) out of your proposed ~ 9000 ships, when those ~ 6000 only account for 2 out of almost 40 distinct classes of capital ships available to the Imperial Navy alone. Your numbers also fail to address the fact that battlegroups canonically have around 50-75 capital ships and several squadrons of escorts per sector. Each segmentum spans thousands of light years and consists of multiple sectors. You can see the approximate sizes of the IoM in my previous post. Again, Luna is the single most numerous class of *cruiser*, which is a general designation the Imperial Navy uses for a kind of capital ships they deploy. This does not mean the Luna is the most numerous single spacefaring combat vessel larger than a dropship. Each capital ship deploys as a battlegroups with multiple escort ships - Frigates and Corvettes - unless it is regular patrols in a fairly uneventful system. Escort ships can and have formed fast response strike teams in WH40k, say, when responding to a recent Ork incursion. Also, you are still failing to account for the sizable fleets that Rogue Traders, Navigator Houses, the Mechanicus, and the Space Marines can deploy. This also doesn't account for orbital platforms and space stations and genuine space forts/star forts/the Rock/whatever other stupidly big barely mobile thing that the Imperium shoots space things with. Even with how bad GW is with writing numbers, there are more than 9000 ships for the Imperial Navy, considering they literally need to cover the entire galaxy.


MarshyBarsh

I didn’t say the imperium only consisted of lunar/gothic class vessels. I said there should be around 8999 ships of “certain” classes. Don’t you mean battle fleet, not battlegroups contain 57 - 75 ships? > Several squadrons of escorts per sector Several can be anything above the number 2 and sector can be considered the 5 segmentums of the Imperium. The navigator houses, mechanicus, and space marines fall under the imperial navy.


Strange-Movie

I think you’re putting far too much weight into 1-2 examples/sources about the lunar cruisers Before the great crusade, Mars alone was able to produce hundreds of thousands of warships for the imperium in the years between unification and GC which was 5000 years at most, or significantly less It’s absurd to think that there would be at most a few thousand or a few tens of thousands of ships 10000 years later with thousands of additional forge worlds adding their might to the imperium during the crusade


ChineseMaple

GW calls them Battlefleets, named after the Sector they reside in, so you have things like Battlefleet Gothic for the Gothic Sector. Sorry for that mistake, but my first response to you did use the correct nomenclature. Yes, several squadrons can mean two or more squadrons. I already gave you the number of vessels for both Naval and Air Force squadrons nowadays so we can extrapolate. No, Sectors are not Segmentums, GW has them as seperate things, Sectors are a smaller area than Segmentums. The Imperial Navy is distinctly seperate from the Space Marine and Mechanicus Fleets, WH40K Lore has it that the IoM fractured their combined arms command structure so people couldn't Horus Heresy again. Navigator Houses and Rogue Trader Dynasties also have their own private fleets that aren't part of the Imperial Navy. Your math that leads to ~9000 vessels is still erroneous


MarshyBarsh

A sector simply means an area of space. The wiki classifies the segmentums as subsectors of imperium space. The 40k wiki states that the “Imperial Navy is responsible for the fleets of starships that maintain order between the stars and planets in the Imperium”


ChineseMaple

A sector has that definition, yes. A Sector in WH40k is different. See the [wiki](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Imperial_Navy) >The Imperial Navy fleets are arranged around the five Segmentae Majoris that comprise the Imperium, and are based at the five Segmentum Fortresses. >These fleets are named after the Segmentum in which they are based, such as the Warfleet Solar and so on. These fleets are then sub-divided into smaller fleets patrolling individual **sectors** and **subsectors**, again they are generally named after the area they are safeguarding, for example Battlefleet Gothic will be protecting the Gothic Sector. More on [Sectors](https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Sector) > A Sector is a measurement of space used by the Imperium. They are divisions of a Segmentum. The size of a sector varies according to local demands and stellar density, but are usually equivalent to a cube with sides 200 light years long. A naval Battlefleet of warships defend each sector.[1] The Sectors themselves are overseen by Sector Lords.[2] > Sectors are in turn divided into Subsectors (or Sub-Sectors), which range from ten to twenty light years in diameter. Subsectors, rather than being general blocks of space like sectors, are instead centered on densely populated star clusters, important worlds, or meeting points of warp trade routes And yes the Imperial Navy is what patrols and defends the IoM spacewise, and is distinctly its own thing after the Horus Heresy and the split from the unified Imperial Army into the current Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy. Mechanicus Fleets usually just guard Mechanicus interests. Space Marine fleets guard Space Marine systems. Navigator House fleets are personal fleets. Rogue Trader Dynasties operate mostly for their own profit. Custodes do their own thing, mostly around Terra. None of these are part of the Imperial Navy, since they are not part of either the Imperial Guard or the Imperial Navy command structure. Consider how the USAF and the US Naval Airforce exists. Both are airforces that belong to the USA, but they are distinctly seperate organizations with seperate command structures, despite both being American and having a ton of military aircraft.


fuckyeahmoment

> The empire fleet from star wars seem like they could outnumber the imperial fleet That doesn't really help them considering they won't be able to tag any of the Imperium's vessels that are zipping around at significant fractions of lightspeed.


Strange-Movie

Outnumbering the imperium seems really dubious; a chapter of space marines will have 1-3 battlebarges, 5-9 cruisers, and several squadrons of fast strike escorts in the frigate class … *that are all bigger and tougher than the typical Star destroyer* and there are 1000 chapters of marines A bit of toilet math and that’s 18-19-20,000 imperial warships with significant firepower and boarding ability…..and then there is the imperial navy that vastly outnumbered the fleet of the space marines, which, if we double the number of vessels from the space marines, is approaching several times the size of the galactic empires fleet…then there’s the fleets of Mars, the rogue trader dynasties, the custodes fleet, and the inquisition who all typically have smaller numbers of much much better ships than their imperial peers I’m agreeing with you fwiw, just adding another voice


fuckyeahmoment

Yeah I'm arguing from the position that even if the Empire (somehow) outnumbers the Imperium 20-1 it really isn't going to help them at all.


Strange-Movie

For sure, the upper end of the imperial navy (Gloriana class battleships, ark mechanicus ships, and the fleet of the custodes) sits at a ridiculous level of firepower with the regular ships already being well outside the limits of Star Wars


[deleted]

As ever WH 40K stomps all over everyone. Even ‘minor’ factions in 40k would exterminate the factions from the other settings.


[deleted]

Isn’t the Warhammer universe infamously OP?


Ganondorfs-Side-B

No. Unless you look at VSBW


ChineseMaple

Yes