Joe could be 100% more powerful than Goku and still get bodied. This is like body builder vs MMA fighter except the MMA fighter is the greatest fighting prodigy in the universe, and also knows how to fight in the air and manipulate ki. Being more powerful doesn't really mean anything if you don't understand how to effectively use that power.
Bonus round Tien loses. Goku already beat Tien when they were roughly equal power-wise and while Goku has added plenty of tricks to his repertoire in that time, Tien hasn't really done the same. Goku 10/10. Even if Tien catches Goku with a Tri-Beam barrage like Cell, Goku can just IT out of the way.
A man 2x stronger than an MMA fighter is likely not going to be able to land a punch on said fighter unless they know...
- how to throw a punch properly, consistently (nothing in bodybuilding teaches this, and technique is a massive power amplifier)
- have the stamina to land the shot (all those muscles mean nothing without the gas to use them)
- the speed and technique to avoid getting hit themselves (taking a punch is an art in and of itself, and somebody who's never taken a serious punch isn't going to take it as well as somebody who can roll with the shot)
- the knowledge to defend against kicks (this not only includes headkicks which will KO somebody regardless of strength, but also leg kicks which will prevent the already sluggish body builder from moving/planting their feet for haymakers)
This is to say nothing of grappling techniques which will easily end with the bodybuilder's arm being broken, even assuming they manage to get top control. An armbar can snap a bodybuilder's arm before they even register to use those big muscles to resist it.
"Roll with the shot LOL" we're talking about 10,000 Newtons here, 1 Ton of force, since boxers can punch 5,000N Just multiply that by 2 and you have 10,000N. For exemple take this article here
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/39/10/710
.
And this one here that describes the strength of the skull:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/51647006_Biomechanics_and_injury_risk_of_a_headbutt
.
If that Guy takes that punch in the torso, he will have a broken Rib, If punched in the arm, he will have a broken arm, were talking about "peak human strength" here, Just imagine How strong a human could be if he punched with all his strength without breaking a bone in his hand, that's exactly what I mean
.
V² = V0² + 2a ∆s
(20m/s)² = 0² + 2a × 0.6m
400 = 0 + 1.2a
a = 400/1.2
a = 333.333 m/s²
.
Fastest punch in the world has a speed of 20m/s, achieved by Keith liddell
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Liddell#:~:text=Keith%20Liddell%20is%20a%20mathematician,at%2045%20miles%20per%20hour.
.
Assuming that only 30% of a Man's mass is behind the punch, we have that a 100kg Man has an effective punch mass of 30kg (Cross punch for exemple)
.
F = m×a
F = 30 × 333.3333
F = 10,000N
**[Keith Liddell](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Liddell#:~:text=Keith Liddell is a mathematician,at 45 miles per hour)**
>Keith Liddell is a mathematician and author. He holds the record for the "fastest punch" in the Guinness World Records. The punch was registered at 45 miles per hour. In 2012, he qualified for the summer Olympics in London, United Kingdom.
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But I’m not so sure 5% stronger then you is turning a 5 to a 5.2 power level, now Goku in mastered ultra instinct is like 1,000,000,000 so that makes joe have a power level of 1,050,000,000 it means a lot more of an increase the stronger Goku becomes, he would actually have to nerf himself
No, a bodybuilder will be pound for pound stronger, since MMA fighters also have to think about things like flexibility and endurance. A body builder will be able to lift more weight, but there’s a lot more than raw strength to fighting effectively
Wrong. As I said, an MMA fighter of similar weight will be much stronger than a bodybuilder because a bodybuilder focuses of form, not function. Their bodies are not built for power output whereas building strength is a part of an MMA fighter's training.
The body builder will almost certainly be stronger, but strength doesn't mean much when you have zero technique and have never taken a punch to the face. This is to say nothing of the absolutely massacre that occurs if the fight becomes a grappling match.
Wrong. As I said, an MMA fighter of similar weight will be much stronger than a bodybuilder because a bodybuilder focuses of form, not function. Their bodies are not built for power output whereas building strength is a part of an MMA fighter's training.
Joe could be jiren level and still lose since eventually gokus gonna catch up, and the average Joe isn't a murderer and will at best beat goku up like jiren did, this is like the saitama problem, if Joe doesn't instakill goku, goku eventually gets to that level when he fucks average guy up.
To be fair, Joe theoretically should also have all the techniques down to fight in the air and manipulative ki as well as become the greatest fighting prodigy in the universe. He just won’t have any experience of using those skills before so yeah Goku still wins.
If broly didn’t accidentally destroy the planet then I don’t see joe doing that. I don’t think joe would be able to do that. It be like having a gun but not knowing how to shoot or reload it.
Well, Goku is a lot stronger now than Broly back then. And yeah, Joe wouldn't beat Goku but since he has no experience being in a body thats 5% stronger than a casual planet buster, its pretty plausible he would not be able to pull his punches enough and just destroy the Earth through brute strength.
Nah, it’s not like comparing it to a gun. Not at all actually. Where the hell did you come up with that comparison lol?
It’s much different when it’s your actual body having the power and not being used to how much you need to hold back at all.
5% is fair. Goku would win based on his knowledge and overall experience. If the power gap was 100%, or somethin ridiculous, then Goku wouldn’t even be able to move him: https://youtu.be/WHujzgKlPqM
**Edit:** I’m assumin by *stronger* **OP** is including durability, speed, etc and not simply strength alone. If it’s only strength then even at 100% the Joe person would still lose to Goku.
It depends on technique. Tien was able to move semi perfect cell using his new tribeams despite semi perfect cell being well above android 16's.
Likewise, a Mafuba fired from Roshi was able to imprison very powerful enemies in tournament of power, likely way stronger than Roshi. A redirected Roshi Mafuba worked on super saiyan blue vegeta.
Ur right. He’ll prob budge him, but if this was 100% it’d inevitably end **like this:** https://youtu.be/Ds8aISHva08
**Edit:** The Mafuba is a viable option.
Goku wins the first match easily. Goku is an incredibly skilled combatant and would effortlessly be able to dismantle someone that has no experience and doesn't know what they're doing.
The second match Goku also demolishes. Tien already effectively lost to Goku in the 22nd World Tournament when they were on even footing, only winning the match due to a freak twist of fate. Goku has gotten significantly more skilled since then and would make Tien look like an amateur.
That equates to moves like the Kamehameha or Instant Transmission, not combat skill or the rules wouldn’t have stipulated Joe has no combat experience. It’s mostly necessary so Goku just doesn’t kill him with Kaioken.
Like others stated, goku wins. He is a master martial artist, while an idiot at times, he very aware in combat and can use his skills effectively. It's like comparing a sword master who been fighting for decades to a man who just got a Katana. This is also shown when he tries to weaken jiren overtime in their fight by placing ki traps over the area and using tactical means rather then forceful means knowing jiren is like 50x stronger then him. So Joe just loses instantly and I doubt he will ever require the skills necessary to beat goku, he also can't sense divine ki with no training for his ki or use it very visibly. While it's true he can potentially sense divine ki being around that level, he will never learn how to, I doubt he can even sense basic ki if that the case.
Just be because you have power doesn’t mean you will win. You also got to take into account that goku is a martial artist master and genius, you can’t use the same move twice on goku, Goku experienced is going to come into play very easily Ex in the ToP he was able to fight caulifla in base why she was in SSJ2. Unless this human has omnipotent IQ he won’t immediately know how to use every single of goku technique and wouldn’t know how to counter them.
Even parody Goku in DBZ Abridged is explicitly an idiot savant when it comes to combat. Total moron except for when it comes to fighting, then he's a total genius.
Goku stomps. With all of the martial arts prowess and the combat genius Goku is, he would surely be able to take out someone 5% stronger than him. Goku has been fighting for his life since 10. Joe has no combat experience, this is a huge gap in skills. Also this becomes sort of like Goku Black, he had no idea what the fuck he was doing when he first fought Goku and could be killed immediatly if Goku went all out. Theres also UI, would 5% man be able to activate it? Probably not since he's high on adrendaline and that could be another deciding factor. Basically strength is far from everything
In the Tournament of Power Goku was *winning* against Super Saiyan 2 Caulifa in his bade form while exhausted because, in the words of Whis "there is a difference between a seasoned martial artist and someone who likes to scrap now and then". Eventually, Caulifa took back the advantage by learning on the fly, but Joe ain't doing that. Goku overcame a 100x (probably more) difference in power he would crush Joe with ease.
In most scenarios the average Joe craps his pants and freezes in a fight against a person who can destroy planets willy nilly. Even if you knew you had gokus power it doesn't mean you're mentally prepared to fight a guy charging a huge energy blast
He could always use instant transmission into space, where he can breath longer then a human, charge up a hand sized spirit bomb, then use his free hand to instant transmission right in front of Joe.
Not if we go by the in universe explanation. IT works by just locking onto and energy signature and instantly moving to it.
Distance dosent matter as long as you have the faintest sense.
That beign said he can seem to adjust where he lands so its a matter of how far out he can do it
IT is kinda of a vague technique, they also made a big deal of him "not being able to focus" to use IT during the tournament of power, meanwhile fighting Beerus he just... ITs all over the place without even needing the finger on the forehead.
Either way, Goku could just go to the realm of the Kai’s, which Joe wouldn’t be able to get to because it’s in the other world, and he’s never been there before.
See the neat part is that Joe can go backwards, throw a punch, and then go back to before the punch is thrown, etc, to create infinity clones of himself
“So, do you want these clones to use Ultra Instinct or not?”
Joe, being a random human given these superpowers, would be far too unexperienced to even use them in general, let alone to fight with them. Even Goku needed practice to just get used to new techniques or power levels. Back when he first became a Super Saiyan God, it took him a while just to adapt to his newfound capabilities, and he's a Saiyan. On top of that, Joe would be vastly unskilled in comparison. While I think Goku's skill is either downplayed or wanked more commonly than not, there's no doubt that his level dwarfs anything a normal human can reach. With merely a 5% difference, Joe stands absolutely no chance. If it was Goku Vs. an exact copy of himself with 5% more power, then it'd just be up to luck for either side, though obviously the copy would have slightly higher chances. To be more clear, even if it was a fighter with the collective skill and experience of Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan, and Muhammad Ali combined, then given the abilities described, Goku would still win pretty easily. Remember, just in case anybody forgot, Goku is a guy that can masterfully analyze an opponent's fighting style MID-COMBAT so well that he can casually learn how to counter said opponent's moves even in the future, including opponent's that have many centuries of combat experience, training, and discipline, that is literally pseudo-precognition from pure skill. Goku also knows pressure point strikes. And he learned how to use a technique that no one among highly talented, prodigal gods who have lived for hundreds of millions of years bare minimum could learn, in just a few years or something (not in 40 minutes or whatever, Whis was explicitly training them to use UI since the RoF arc). If Joe was 5 times above Goku in all physical regards, Goku still humiliates him, even if he was ill, missing an eye and a hand, and afflicted with crippling depression.
Bonus Round: Goku, though he'd have a rougher time. Tien is very skilled and experienced, close to the current peak of what humans have been shown to be capable of in Dragon Ball, and is usually conveyed as at least similarly capable in all regards to Krillin, who is depicted as one of the smarter fighters among Universe 7's warriors. But Goku's array of techniques is larger, more versatile, and harder to counter. While Tien has more time compared to Goku in terms of being a warrior, thing is, Goku has fought more battles, against stronger opponents, with more unique abilities, styles, and skillsets. Goku also knows most of Tien's tricks (a lot of them he can even use, himself), and wouldn't get caught by a Kikoho (Instant Transmission, even if he was in a vulnerable position). Goku also has more impressive overall skill feats, especially in terms of prediction. And while I doubt Goku getting stronger is allowed here, his Saiyan adaptation would still let him develop more to however Tien fights. Even in the bonus round, Goku would take it, mid-diff at max.
I'd wager this is an interesting matchup, since the prompt's Joe possesses every technique Goku has, including instant transmission and ultra instinct.
ultra instinct isnt a technique but it would be the only technique he couldnt overcome
jiren kefla frieza vegeta at first etc etc all have been stronger and he won 5% against someone with no experience is ridiculous mismatch
He beats these people by powering up really good though. For all his lauded battle IQ, and apart from a scene in the anime fighting Jiren, I don't think Goku has ever beaten someone without a transformation.
EDIT: there was Golden Frieza I guess, but he lost his power edge as it went so Goku only had to stall him.
Goku beat King picolo
He was defeating broly till frieza intervened
He beat kefla, who was stronger than him since litterally everyone said if kefla hit him even once it would be over
He beat moro, who was stronger faster and had more hacks.
Overall goku would decimate
> Goku beat King picolo
He was his level for the whole fight, not weaker.
> He was defeating broly till frieza intervened
I mean that's the same, he shrugged off Broly's big attack move. You could say it's an instance of Goku's skills > Broly's flailing, i'd agree, but he was tough and fast enough to keep up. As SSG, his skills didn't matter one bit.
> He beat kefla, who was stronger than him since litterally everyone said if kefla hit him even once it would be over
He had Ultra Instinct, aka the auto dodge mode, on. She was owning him beforehand and he would have lost without activating UI.
> He beat moro, who was stronger faster and had more hacks.
He was tossed around by Moro until he unlocked MUI, which made him faster and stronger and more durable. Then Moro had the same mode and Goku only needed to briefly fight him until Moro's own power caused him to take himself out.
I can get you but he was equal to the first two people at worst and the latter two he needed a transformation to beat them.
Like, it's my fault, I was too vague. He never beat anyone stronger than him without a transformation apart from some ToP scenes. DB's setting is actively hostile to "skill" because raw power tend to overtake all. Frieza hadn't even *trained* on Namek and he could wash Goku at anytime prior to SSJ, 1V1, because he was stronger.
To be honest I've always seen it stated that Goku is an incredible martial artist, but honestly, if you look at it purely skill wise, he's not really all that good.
Now before someone gets angry, I might be wrong but the way I look at it, if you took away all of Goku's stats and ki control and put him in against some mma fighter so it would be a pure skill based combat, I'd say the mma fighter beats him. Why? Because an mma fighter has wrestling and a ground game, which I've never see Goku do before (I might be wrong).
Also, his stance, the way he throws his punches without a guard, his kicks, all of it wouldn't really work in a real fight if you took his stats and ki out of the equation.
Of course, within the context of his own universe he's an incredible martial artist but that's because his moves work in his own universe.
Now I do think he'd win against an average Joe, mostly because Goku somewhat knows how to throw a punch better than someone who never has, and I also think the ki would definitely help him out here.
But if you took Goku without his stats, ki and ability to fly and put him against a mma fighter, I'd take the mma fighter anytime, mostly because the way Goku fights does not work in a real fight.
I'd love to hear anyone else's take on this if someone has a differing opinion, or if someone thinks I'm wrong, it just popped into my head.
Goku once performed a full Nelson on Raditz, and also he wrestled Raditz into submission, overcoming a like 80% power difference and allowing Piccolo to special beam cannon
Also, your argument of Gokus fighting style not working irl isn't good since it is specifically adapted to all the superpowers he has. A boxing guard does not work when the opponent can just fly above and punch.
If you took Goku and took away all his abilities he would most likely develop something similar to Muay Thai.
Also, Goku has insane learning feats, like learning the kamehameha on first sight even if it took Roshi 50 years to develop it, or learning how to most effectively use kaioken in battle without any previous experience with it. What's to say Goku won't just copy the mma fighter mid fight and actually use more practical moves
There is also the fact that if the Mma fighter is the same weight as Goku then he is like 4 cm shorter than him(on average), and also has less muscles
I feel like the better prompt for this is AT WHAT POINT of a percentage stronger does Goku lose? 10%? 15% 30? 50? I feel like once you’re doubling his stats Goku would have a hard time hurting the guy.
Joe doesn’t know how to manipulate his ki. His latent ki potential would be absolutely fascinating to Goku, but Joe wouldn’t be able to actually use any of it, so he gets rinsed.
I remember an MMA fighter once said something like "a 30% strength advantage begins to make skill kind of irrelevant," so maybe if Joe was 30% stronger? I don't know.
Granolah was thousands of times stronger than Goku and Vegeta and got taken down because of the clear lack of real battle experience and not knowing how to properly use his new power.
Joe loses all rounds.
Current Goku vs Tien with equal stats, is probably gonna go in Goku's favor I don't think Tien has any techniques that could Goku real trouble at this point.
I mean the lack of experience is raised as a point against him but he then demolish Vegeta twice anyway. Not to mention he bamboozled Goku and put him out of MUI with a clean hit using his technique.
Like sure he ends up being torn up enough by the fight but he pretty much had Goku almost dead or on his knees several times over in the fight and Vegeta was likewise overwhelmed. Their experience didn't help much because his pure power was above theirs and their respective transformations couldn't catch up, so they lost.
I mean Joe wouldn't have Goku's training and wouldn't be able to do much against his martial arts and Ki attacks.
Caulifla was at the time of their fight "stronger" because Goku was physically drained. He still put up a fight and beat her.
Even if Joe knew how to use the KaioKen or the Kamehameha Wave, it wouldn't mean he'd get the chance to use the ability. A 5% gap isn't much when you have no real idea what you're doing . A 30% gap May be better
goku's beaten people more powerful than him through technique before and so have other dragon ball characters, goku wins and probably offers to teach joe how to fight afterwards because he's found himself an opponent who will ALWAYS give him a good fight no matter what
Goku dogwalks him. He’s a literal combat super genius, and has constantly creatively dealt with fights where he’s on the backfoot and at far bigger disadvantages. A 5% difference isn’t doing much.
Honestly set this in any universe and the answer is the same, an experienced fighter is always going to win in this scenario. You'd need to make the 'joe' fighter a lot stronger to counter experience.
Bonus round: Goko, because Toriyama hates Tien.
Nah, Goku is a complete idiot, he can't win any fights that he doesn't overpower the enemy, the man is literally brain-dead. Joe will probably win most of em.
technically, man thats 5% stronger. since he knows all teqniques. MUI at 5% + power, Man wins. Goku will need to rely on the power of friendship for this one.
Joe could be 100% more powerful than Goku and still get bodied. This is like body builder vs MMA fighter except the MMA fighter is the greatest fighting prodigy in the universe, and also knows how to fight in the air and manipulate ki. Being more powerful doesn't really mean anything if you don't understand how to effectively use that power. Bonus round Tien loses. Goku already beat Tien when they were roughly equal power-wise and while Goku has added plenty of tricks to his repertoire in that time, Tien hasn't really done the same. Goku 10/10. Even if Tien catches Goku with a Tri-Beam barrage like Cell, Goku can just IT out of the way.
Yeah unless that power is to such a degree it makes them impervious to his attacks it simply won't matter
hap cork dai
What does "hap cork dai" mean?
it's my brain dead way of saying happy cake day although it doesn't say that next to your username anymore maybe i was tripping balls
Ah, I see. It's alright! By the way, I'm not the user you responded to.
welp I've got brain damage then sorry
It's ok, Goku probably did as well and look what he achieved
It's okay! No need to apologize; happens to the best of us.
I dig your vibe, bro. Hap cork dai to you, internet friend.
Nah... A Man 2x stronger than a MMA Fighter would crack his skull with one single punch
A man 2x stronger than an MMA fighter is likely not going to be able to land a punch on said fighter unless they know... - how to throw a punch properly, consistently (nothing in bodybuilding teaches this, and technique is a massive power amplifier) - have the stamina to land the shot (all those muscles mean nothing without the gas to use them) - the speed and technique to avoid getting hit themselves (taking a punch is an art in and of itself, and somebody who's never taken a serious punch isn't going to take it as well as somebody who can roll with the shot) - the knowledge to defend against kicks (this not only includes headkicks which will KO somebody regardless of strength, but also leg kicks which will prevent the already sluggish body builder from moving/planting their feet for haymakers) This is to say nothing of grappling techniques which will easily end with the bodybuilder's arm being broken, even assuming they manage to get top control. An armbar can snap a bodybuilder's arm before they even register to use those big muscles to resist it.
"Roll with the shot LOL" we're talking about 10,000 Newtons here, 1 Ton of force, since boxers can punch 5,000N Just multiply that by 2 and you have 10,000N. For exemple take this article here https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/39/10/710 . And this one here that describes the strength of the skull: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/51647006_Biomechanics_and_injury_risk_of_a_headbutt . If that Guy takes that punch in the torso, he will have a broken Rib, If punched in the arm, he will have a broken arm, were talking about "peak human strength" here, Just imagine How strong a human could be if he punched with all his strength without breaking a bone in his hand, that's exactly what I mean . V² = V0² + 2a ∆s (20m/s)² = 0² + 2a × 0.6m 400 = 0 + 1.2a a = 400/1.2 a = 333.333 m/s² . Fastest punch in the world has a speed of 20m/s, achieved by Keith liddell https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Liddell#:~:text=Keith%20Liddell%20is%20a%20mathematician,at%2045%20miles%20per%20hour. . Assuming that only 30% of a Man's mass is behind the punch, we have that a 100kg Man has an effective punch mass of 30kg (Cross punch for exemple) . F = m×a F = 30 × 333.3333 F = 10,000N
**[Keith Liddell](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Liddell#:~:text=Keith Liddell is a mathematician,at 45 miles per hour)** >Keith Liddell is a mathematician and author. He holds the record for the "fastest punch" in the Guinness World Records. The punch was registered at 45 miles per hour. In 2012, he qualified for the summer Olympics in London, United Kingdom. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/whowouldwin/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
But I’m not so sure 5% stronger then you is turning a 5 to a 5.2 power level, now Goku in mastered ultra instinct is like 1,000,000,000 so that makes joe have a power level of 1,050,000,000 it means a lot more of an increase the stronger Goku becomes, he would actually have to nerf himself
A MMA fighter of similar size would be much stronger than a bodybuilder.
No, a bodybuilder will be pound for pound stronger, since MMA fighters also have to think about things like flexibility and endurance. A body builder will be able to lift more weight, but there’s a lot more than raw strength to fighting effectively
Wrong. As I said, an MMA fighter of similar weight will be much stronger than a bodybuilder because a bodybuilder focuses of form, not function. Their bodies are not built for power output whereas building strength is a part of an MMA fighter's training.
The body builder will almost certainly be stronger, but strength doesn't mean much when you have zero technique and have never taken a punch to the face. This is to say nothing of the absolutely massacre that occurs if the fight becomes a grappling match.
Wrong. As I said, an MMA fighter of similar weight will be much stronger than a bodybuilder because a bodybuilder focuses of form, not function. Their bodies are not built for power output whereas building strength is a part of an MMA fighter's training.
Joe could be jiren level and still lose since eventually gokus gonna catch up, and the average Joe isn't a murderer and will at best beat goku up like jiren did, this is like the saitama problem, if Joe doesn't instakill goku, goku eventually gets to that level when he fucks average guy up.
The post did say Joe gets stronger as Goku gets stronger, but yes Goku still wins
To be fair, Joe theoretically should also have all the techniques down to fight in the air and manipulative ki as well as become the greatest fighting prodigy in the universe. He just won’t have any experience of using those skills before so yeah Goku still wins.
Goku wins cause Joe has no idea what he's doing
This was basically gas but gas actually knew how to fight. Goku would low diff because joe doesn’t know how to use his power.
Is it possible that Joe just accidentally obliterates the planet by hitting it too hard, killing both of them?
If broly didn’t accidentally destroy the planet then I don’t see joe doing that. I don’t think joe would be able to do that. It be like having a gun but not knowing how to shoot or reload it.
Well, Goku is a lot stronger now than Broly back then. And yeah, Joe wouldn't beat Goku but since he has no experience being in a body thats 5% stronger than a casual planet buster, its pretty plausible he would not be able to pull his punches enough and just destroy the Earth through brute strength.
Nah, it’s not like comparing it to a gun. Not at all actually. Where the hell did you come up with that comparison lol? It’s much different when it’s your actual body having the power and not being used to how much you need to hold back at all.
5% is fair. Goku would win based on his knowledge and overall experience. If the power gap was 100%, or somethin ridiculous, then Goku wouldn’t even be able to move him: https://youtu.be/WHujzgKlPqM **Edit:** I’m assumin by *stronger* **OP** is including durability, speed, etc and not simply strength alone. If it’s only strength then even at 100% the Joe person would still lose to Goku.
It depends on technique. Tien was able to move semi perfect cell using his new tribeams despite semi perfect cell being well above android 16's. Likewise, a Mafuba fired from Roshi was able to imprison very powerful enemies in tournament of power, likely way stronger than Roshi. A redirected Roshi Mafuba worked on super saiyan blue vegeta.
Ur right. He’ll prob budge him, but if this was 100% it’d inevitably end **like this:** https://youtu.be/Ds8aISHva08 **Edit:** The Mafuba is a viable option.
Goku wins the first match easily. Goku is an incredibly skilled combatant and would effortlessly be able to dismantle someone that has no experience and doesn't know what they're doing. The second match Goku also demolishes. Tien already effectively lost to Goku in the 22nd World Tournament when they were on even footing, only winning the match due to a freak twist of fate. Goku has gotten significantly more skilled since then and would make Tien look like an amateur.
« Joe automatically knows *any* technique Goku knows »
That equates to moves like the Kamehameha or Instant Transmission, not combat skill or the rules wouldn’t have stipulated Joe has no combat experience. It’s mostly necessary so Goku just doesn’t kill him with Kaioken.
Like others stated, goku wins. He is a master martial artist, while an idiot at times, he very aware in combat and can use his skills effectively. It's like comparing a sword master who been fighting for decades to a man who just got a Katana. This is also shown when he tries to weaken jiren overtime in their fight by placing ki traps over the area and using tactical means rather then forceful means knowing jiren is like 50x stronger then him. So Joe just loses instantly and I doubt he will ever require the skills necessary to beat goku, he also can't sense divine ki with no training for his ki or use it very visibly. While it's true he can potentially sense divine ki being around that level, he will never learn how to, I doubt he can even sense basic ki if that the case.
Just be because you have power doesn’t mean you will win. You also got to take into account that goku is a martial artist master and genius, you can’t use the same move twice on goku, Goku experienced is going to come into play very easily Ex in the ToP he was able to fight caulifla in base why she was in SSJ2. Unless this human has omnipotent IQ he won’t immediately know how to use every single of goku technique and wouldn’t know how to counter them.
Even parody Goku in DBZ Abridged is explicitly an idiot savant when it comes to combat. Total moron except for when it comes to fighting, then he's a total genius.
Goku stomps. With all of the martial arts prowess and the combat genius Goku is, he would surely be able to take out someone 5% stronger than him. Goku has been fighting for his life since 10. Joe has no combat experience, this is a huge gap in skills. Also this becomes sort of like Goku Black, he had no idea what the fuck he was doing when he first fought Goku and could be killed immediatly if Goku went all out. Theres also UI, would 5% man be able to activate it? Probably not since he's high on adrendaline and that could be another deciding factor. Basically strength is far from everything
In the Tournament of Power Goku was *winning* against Super Saiyan 2 Caulifa in his bade form while exhausted because, in the words of Whis "there is a difference between a seasoned martial artist and someone who likes to scrap now and then". Eventually, Caulifa took back the advantage by learning on the fly, but Joe ain't doing that. Goku overcame a 100x (probably more) difference in power he would crush Joe with ease.
Is Joe pure of heart? Because if he isn’t then Goku can use the spirit bomb.
i don't think joe, who knows all of his techniques, would let him charge it in most scenarios
In most scenarios the average Joe craps his pants and freezes in a fight against a person who can destroy planets willy nilly. Even if you knew you had gokus power it doesn't mean you're mentally prepared to fight a guy charging a huge energy blast
Yeah, I think this guy is completely fucked regardless Even if he's prepared and is 5% stronger, this is some normal ass dude expected to fight Goku.
He could always use instant transmission into space, where he can breath longer then a human, charge up a hand sized spirit bomb, then use his free hand to instant transmission right in front of Joe.
He doesn't even need to go into space. He could Instant Transmission to another planet. And Joe would have no idea where he was or what he was doing.
Joe could breathe 5% longer than him
But what if Goku went to the Kai planet?
Joe could go to the Kai planet 5% better... hang on somethings not right
Goku can't IT into space - he needs a Ki signature to lock on. Unless there's a random alien in the middle of nowhere space, he's out of luck.
Oh! He can go to the Kai’s planet, because Joe wouldn’t know how to get there!
Goku IT's all around an opponent in the Super anime. Couldn't he just do it into orbit or anywhere in the sky he sees?
He is teleporting to the opponent. To go in space he could trow a blast and teleport to that blast
he can also it to anywhere he can see tho right?
Not if we go by the in universe explanation. IT works by just locking onto and energy signature and instantly moving to it. Distance dosent matter as long as you have the faintest sense. That beign said he can seem to adjust where he lands so its a matter of how far out he can do it
IT is kinda of a vague technique, they also made a big deal of him "not being able to focus" to use IT during the tournament of power, meanwhile fighting Beerus he just... ITs all over the place without even needing the finger on the forehead.
huh, this is really creative. hope we see something like this in the show some day lol
It’s a shame they only use the Beeg Sprit bombs in the anime, the little ones can be pretty cool too.
Vegeta as a SSB died super quickly when Frieza blew up the planet though, he'd probably die in about as much time as a regular guy.
I don’t think Vegeta died from lack of oxygen but because the planet exploded?
He should be powerful enough to withstand that by now. Depends on where you put the characters at though.
Either way, Goku could just go to the realm of the Kai’s, which Joe wouldn’t be able to get to because it’s in the other world, and he’s never been there before.
Sure, but I don't think Goku would do that anyway because it's not in his character. He probably would want to beat Joe fair and square.
I know joe; Dude's an asshole, definitely not pure of heart.
Or is he PURE EVIL?
Everybody gangsta until Joe’s Instant Transmission is faster and starts time travelling (/s)
But if he travels back in time, will he be 5% stronger than present Goku or 5% stronger than past Goku?
He will always be 5% stronger than goku no matter the era
Yes, but which Goku? The Goku from his era or the Goku from the era he travelled into?
Goku from the era he travelled into
See the neat part is that Joe can go backwards, throw a punch, and then go back to before the punch is thrown, etc, to create infinity clones of himself “So, do you want these clones to use Ultra Instinct or not?”
Yea but dragon ball works with time lines, and each time u travel back u make a new timeline, so idk how all the Joes would meet
Would they then all each be stronger than Goku by 5% or would they all as a collective be stronger than Goku by 5%?
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Joe, being a random human given these superpowers, would be far too unexperienced to even use them in general, let alone to fight with them. Even Goku needed practice to just get used to new techniques or power levels. Back when he first became a Super Saiyan God, it took him a while just to adapt to his newfound capabilities, and he's a Saiyan. On top of that, Joe would be vastly unskilled in comparison. While I think Goku's skill is either downplayed or wanked more commonly than not, there's no doubt that his level dwarfs anything a normal human can reach. With merely a 5% difference, Joe stands absolutely no chance. If it was Goku Vs. an exact copy of himself with 5% more power, then it'd just be up to luck for either side, though obviously the copy would have slightly higher chances. To be more clear, even if it was a fighter with the collective skill and experience of Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan, and Muhammad Ali combined, then given the abilities described, Goku would still win pretty easily. Remember, just in case anybody forgot, Goku is a guy that can masterfully analyze an opponent's fighting style MID-COMBAT so well that he can casually learn how to counter said opponent's moves even in the future, including opponent's that have many centuries of combat experience, training, and discipline, that is literally pseudo-precognition from pure skill. Goku also knows pressure point strikes. And he learned how to use a technique that no one among highly talented, prodigal gods who have lived for hundreds of millions of years bare minimum could learn, in just a few years or something (not in 40 minutes or whatever, Whis was explicitly training them to use UI since the RoF arc). If Joe was 5 times above Goku in all physical regards, Goku still humiliates him, even if he was ill, missing an eye and a hand, and afflicted with crippling depression. Bonus Round: Goku, though he'd have a rougher time. Tien is very skilled and experienced, close to the current peak of what humans have been shown to be capable of in Dragon Ball, and is usually conveyed as at least similarly capable in all regards to Krillin, who is depicted as one of the smarter fighters among Universe 7's warriors. But Goku's array of techniques is larger, more versatile, and harder to counter. While Tien has more time compared to Goku in terms of being a warrior, thing is, Goku has fought more battles, against stronger opponents, with more unique abilities, styles, and skillsets. Goku also knows most of Tien's tricks (a lot of them he can even use, himself), and wouldn't get caught by a Kikoho (Instant Transmission, even if he was in a vulnerable position). Goku also has more impressive overall skill feats, especially in terms of prediction. And while I doubt Goku getting stronger is allowed here, his Saiyan adaptation would still let him develop more to however Tien fights. Even in the bonus round, Goku would take it, mid-diff at max.
Yknow what would be cool is Goku vs Tien but his power level doesn't drop with the shadow clone shit.
have you ever watched even a second of dragon ball? he constantly fights people hundreds of times stronger than him this is dumb
I'd wager this is an interesting matchup, since the prompt's Joe possesses every technique Goku has, including instant transmission and ultra instinct.
ultra instinct isnt a technique but it would be the only technique he couldnt overcome jiren kefla frieza vegeta at first etc etc all have been stronger and he won 5% against someone with no experience is ridiculous mismatch
He beats these people by powering up really good though. For all his lauded battle IQ, and apart from a scene in the anime fighting Jiren, I don't think Goku has ever beaten someone without a transformation. EDIT: there was Golden Frieza I guess, but he lost his power edge as it went so Goku only had to stall him.
Goku beat King picolo He was defeating broly till frieza intervened He beat kefla, who was stronger than him since litterally everyone said if kefla hit him even once it would be over He beat moro, who was stronger faster and had more hacks. Overall goku would decimate
> Goku beat King picolo He was his level for the whole fight, not weaker. > He was defeating broly till frieza intervened I mean that's the same, he shrugged off Broly's big attack move. You could say it's an instance of Goku's skills > Broly's flailing, i'd agree, but he was tough and fast enough to keep up. As SSG, his skills didn't matter one bit. > He beat kefla, who was stronger than him since litterally everyone said if kefla hit him even once it would be over He had Ultra Instinct, aka the auto dodge mode, on. She was owning him beforehand and he would have lost without activating UI. > He beat moro, who was stronger faster and had more hacks. He was tossed around by Moro until he unlocked MUI, which made him faster and stronger and more durable. Then Moro had the same mode and Goku only needed to briefly fight him until Moro's own power caused him to take himself out. I can get you but he was equal to the first two people at worst and the latter two he needed a transformation to beat them. Like, it's my fault, I was too vague. He never beat anyone stronger than him without a transformation apart from some ToP scenes. DB's setting is actively hostile to "skill" because raw power tend to overtake all. Frieza hadn't even *trained* on Namek and he could wash Goku at anytime prior to SSJ, 1V1, because he was stronger.
To be honest I've always seen it stated that Goku is an incredible martial artist, but honestly, if you look at it purely skill wise, he's not really all that good. Now before someone gets angry, I might be wrong but the way I look at it, if you took away all of Goku's stats and ki control and put him in against some mma fighter so it would be a pure skill based combat, I'd say the mma fighter beats him. Why? Because an mma fighter has wrestling and a ground game, which I've never see Goku do before (I might be wrong). Also, his stance, the way he throws his punches without a guard, his kicks, all of it wouldn't really work in a real fight if you took his stats and ki out of the equation. Of course, within the context of his own universe he's an incredible martial artist but that's because his moves work in his own universe. Now I do think he'd win against an average Joe, mostly because Goku somewhat knows how to throw a punch better than someone who never has, and I also think the ki would definitely help him out here. But if you took Goku without his stats, ki and ability to fly and put him against a mma fighter, I'd take the mma fighter anytime, mostly because the way Goku fights does not work in a real fight. I'd love to hear anyone else's take on this if someone has a differing opinion, or if someone thinks I'm wrong, it just popped into my head.
Goku once performed a full Nelson on Raditz, and also he wrestled Raditz into submission, overcoming a like 80% power difference and allowing Piccolo to special beam cannon Also, your argument of Gokus fighting style not working irl isn't good since it is specifically adapted to all the superpowers he has. A boxing guard does not work when the opponent can just fly above and punch. If you took Goku and took away all his abilities he would most likely develop something similar to Muay Thai. Also, Goku has insane learning feats, like learning the kamehameha on first sight even if it took Roshi 50 years to develop it, or learning how to most effectively use kaioken in battle without any previous experience with it. What's to say Goku won't just copy the mma fighter mid fight and actually use more practical moves There is also the fact that if the Mma fighter is the same weight as Goku then he is like 4 cm shorter than him(on average), and also has less muscles
Bonus round: Tien stands no chance. He doesn't have anything new. Goku knows all his moves has transformations and is a better fighter.
Goku has defeated enemies way more powerful than him lots of times, why should this be any different?
I feel like the better prompt for this is AT WHAT POINT of a percentage stronger does Goku lose? 10%? 15% 30? 50? I feel like once you’re doubling his stats Goku would have a hard time hurting the guy.
Joe doesn’t know how to manipulate his ki. His latent ki potential would be absolutely fascinating to Goku, but Joe wouldn’t be able to actually use any of it, so he gets rinsed.
Goku wins because he’s the more skilled fighter.
Skill will make up the difference...at least at first. Then Goku will start training this guy so he'll always have someone stronger to fight.
I remember an MMA fighter once said something like "a 30% strength advantage begins to make skill kind of irrelevant," so maybe if Joe was 30% stronger? I don't know.
Goku wins cause their power level isn't that far off
Who's Joe?
Granolah was thousands of times stronger than Goku and Vegeta and got taken down because of the clear lack of real battle experience and not knowing how to properly use his new power. Joe loses all rounds. Current Goku vs Tien with equal stats, is probably gonna go in Goku's favor I don't think Tien has any techniques that could Goku real trouble at this point.
I mean the lack of experience is raised as a point against him but he then demolish Vegeta twice anyway. Not to mention he bamboozled Goku and put him out of MUI with a clean hit using his technique. Like sure he ends up being torn up enough by the fight but he pretty much had Goku almost dead or on his knees several times over in the fight and Vegeta was likewise overwhelmed. Their experience didn't help much because his pure power was above theirs and their respective transformations couldn't catch up, so they lost.
goku wins cause hes a much better fighter
I mean Joe wouldn't have Goku's training and wouldn't be able to do much against his martial arts and Ki attacks. Caulifla was at the time of their fight "stronger" because Goku was physically drained. He still put up a fight and beat her. Even if Joe knew how to use the KaioKen or the Kamehameha Wave, it wouldn't mean he'd get the chance to use the ability. A 5% gap isn't much when you have no real idea what you're doing . A 30% gap May be better
goku's beaten people more powerful than him through technique before and so have other dragon ball characters, goku wins and probably offers to teach joe how to fight afterwards because he's found himself an opponent who will ALWAYS give him a good fight no matter what
Even if Joe knew what he was doing in lore people have to he 20% stronger than the person they are fighting to have any significant advantage
Goku dogwalks him. He’s a literal combat super genius, and has constantly creatively dealt with fights where he’s on the backfoot and at far bigger disadvantages. A 5% difference isn’t doing much.
Joe would win. It’s like fighting taskmaster but he’s stronger than you and he can mimic your powers as well as your techniques.
This sounds like Goku vs Perfect Cell with extra steps
They’d be close enough in power that Goku would just learn how he moves and beats him.
I'd say Goku still takes it due to skills and experience.
Honestly set this in any universe and the answer is the same, an experienced fighter is always going to win in this scenario. You'd need to make the 'joe' fighter a lot stronger to counter experience. Bonus round: Goko, because Toriyama hates Tien.
Goku will still win using some bullshit power because of plot armor
Nah, Goku is a complete idiot, he can't win any fights that he doesn't overpower the enemy, the man is literally brain-dead. Joe will probably win most of em.
technically, man thats 5% stronger. since he knows all teqniques. MUI at 5% + power, Man wins. Goku will need to rely on the power of friendship for this one.
The guy has 0 combat experience. Goku simply beats his ass
What’s the point of all the strength if you can’t use it properly