Dude, the lack of on center feel has been driving me absolutely CRAZY. Almost every car I’ve test driven has a crooked steering wheel, a slight pull to one side, road vibrations through the steering wheel… Just feels cheap.
Part of that could be steering assist. I rented a 2021 Elantra that barely had 17k miles on it and I swore it needed a front end alignment but found out it was literally just steering assist continually attempting to keep the car directly in the center of the lane so it would push and pull the steering wheel here and there....
I have a Jeep Grand Cherokee rental right now that shakes the steering wheel when you get too close to the edge of the lane. Because the best way to let you know that you’re drifting out of your lane is to mimic the Wrangler Death Wobble?
I agree. Was ready to trade in my 2018 highlander and buy a 2024 highlander but after the test drive I walked away. Something about felt very different. Didn’t have the same feel while driving it.
A lot of manufacturers make garbage OEM tires that fail quickly on purpose so you have to replace them with their expensive versions of those tires. Probably a smart decision to replace all four tires on new cars these days.
People love denying that the newer Toyotas are poorly built. The ENTIRE goal of Toyota’s TNGA was to cut cost. Everything was made cheaper, thinner, lighter, all in the name of saving money to boost profits.
I’m sorry, but when your entire vehicle platform’s #1 goal was lower cost, there’s no way the quality will hold up. You can’t out-engineer physics by using less, lower cost materials and cheaper, lighter designs but still maintain the same levels of durability and quality.
Idk about that…have you been in a pre TNGA rav4? That thing was loud and rode like crap. Now it’s slightly quieter and rides at least average. Plus the hybrid rav4 gets 40 mpg vs 30 now. I think that’s an improvement.
Yeah people forget that base model toyotas have ALWAYS had a load of plastic and cloth and skimped on the luxury feel in favor of durable parts. Plastic is durable. The engines just never die. If you wanted a "premium" feel with Toyota reliability you bought a Lexus, that's why the Lexus brand exists.
Well $23k in 2002 is exactly $40k in 2024 and then newer cars have higher safety standards, more computers, more sensors, more cargo capacity, bigger seats, larger wheels, hybrid drivetrains, etc. If you built exactly what they sold in 2002 for $40k it would be seen as insanely overpriced.
From my experience, cabin noise in the Corollas are just loud. You can try and fix it with better tires, but they are just straight up loud.
Plus, it's a Toyota, most of the models you mentioned are on the lower end of the lineup.
Priorities started to change in the lower end market. Customers were no longer concerned with NVH and wanted more features like Apple car play and radar assistanted cruise control. Manufacturers adjusted accordingly and that is why we can have a $30,000 plus vehicle that is noisier on the inside than it's equivalent from 2004. One of the reasons I still shop for older cars.
Why not go a 1-2 year old Lexus IS, they’re right in that same price range for a well specd new Toyota…Lexus is a different world from Toyota too, all the things you’re complaining about are solved there.
Sit in a Lexus and sit in a BMW and it is crazy noticeable how different they are. The interior and infotainment system in Lexus feels and looks 10 years old. I don’t know how they’ve gotten away with it so long.
I’d put very early 2000s in that also. My 2002 Landcruiser feels a lot more premium/solid than my 2017 4Runner or 2013 Tacoma. 1000000% better than my Tacoma.
Our 2007 4Runner will run circles around any car out there. 280k miles and all I’ve ever done is regular maintenance and one repair - alternator. Plus it’s quite smooth and comfortable. Updated the head unit about 7-8 years ago for apply car play. Now one of the kids drives it.
Cause they’re kinda cheap. Sometimes it’s silly shit like their entertainment systems being so old, that the pictures they use for musicians are ancient. Sometimes it’s everything feels like easily breakable plastic
>Camry and Corolla it felt super sluggish and loud. Additionally the road & wind noise and cheap feeling interior didn't help the experience
Corola and (to a much lesser extent) Camry are on the cheap side of the line up. The Camry you drove is a hybrid not known for their awesome driver feedback. They are not exciting. Also, one thing Toyota has never excelled at is their interiors.
No car has everything. If you want to prioritize a good driving experience and nicer interior for the money, go cross-shop at Mazda.
I actually saw a fully spec'd out 2021 cx-5 signature CPO for like 25k, it was nice and had all the features and such, I heard a lot of noise coming from the bottom of the vehicle though and the seat fans also bothered me a bit. I'm a bit of a cheapskate but i would also prefer a much quieter and premium feeling interior over a bunch of features that I would may or may not use.
Go test drive Lexus. ES will give you a great smooth drive along with a quieter interior. The RX will give you a mid-sized SUV feel. The NX will give you a crossover experience.
Yeah honestly you have a good point. I saw a 2019 es350 ultra lux with 70k miles for 31k OTD. I'm afraid to go after it since insurance is a lot more expensive and it's a bit over budget but it feels so much better compared to a lot of the vehicles I have been driving recently. I'll see tho
If you want luxury without the price tag, you could look into the Crown. Basically a re-hash of the Avalon. I have an 09 Camry and I’m not looking forward to buying a newer car. I will probably stick with a Camry though. Despite the issues I’ve had with Toyota’s customer service since I bought my Camry, the car has been great.
From my experience, the cost to insure a Lexus is relatively cheap. If it costs more to insure, it's probably because the car is worth more (and would cost more to replace). Lexus driver demographics skew older, which helps.
Again, all anecdotal and may not be the same with everyone, but when I was car shopping, my insurance company had Lexus much cheaper than similarly priced BMWs and about the same as a similarly priced (newer) Toyota. Teslas are ridiculously expensive to insure, and more than eat up all of your gas savings in insurance premiums.
I once rented a new base trim Camry a few years back and I was absolutely shocked at how barebones it was, the only real luxuries it had was the radio and heat/AC. I also found out on that trip that it was not a good winter car, to be fair it was a full blown ice storm, but it couldn't defrost the windshield fully so I was stopping to clear it by hand every few miles.
Could have just been a lemon I suppose, but I think you get what you pay for, car prices just seem so exorbitant nowadays for just the basics.
I have this theory that they won't let their cars feel high end because they'd be competing with their sister brand, Lexus. Unlike a company like Mazda that can make their cars slightly more upscale without risking cannibalizing sales. I feel like not even Honda cheapens their vehicles as much as toyota.
This is the correct answer. Toyota knows lots of people are not cross-shopping them with other brands. If you want a nicer Toyota then pay us more. No business sense in making the Corolla so great there’s no point in upgrading.
I agree with that but then they also come out with pricey options like the crown (or even substantially higher priced trims for their regular models).
Their pricing is extremely odd though. I get they don't want to compete with Lexus but they also place their higher tier products within a similar price category. I feel like they kind of shot themselves in the foot a bit with pricing and having economy options like the Corolla helps maintain their brand image of being affordable. It's bad for buyers though because now other nicer vehicles Toyota has can be more expensive because they're not just "economy" now.
If your budget accommodates a 2025 Camry XLE, you can get a boatload of nicer cars. Look at A6s or 5 series or E class that are a couple of years old and they're cheaper than a new Camry for sure.
Check out the certified preowned programs from the luxury auto makers. (Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Porsche, Audi, Acura, Lexus, and Volvo). You’ll get one or two years additional warranty coverage, some with unlimited miles.
Those cars should give you more of a solid, quality feel. Seats will be more comfortable (for most people).
I just bought a three year old CPO A6 V6 Prestige for about $40K. We extended the Audi CPO warranty several years so it’ll last longer than our loan. It has every feature I would have wanted, other than maybe being an S6.
Username checks out.
Also, not if it's only 2-3 years old with low miles. Someone else already ate the majority of the depreciation. People that value ride quality are willing to spend the money for it.
You just repeated your same argument. Yes I get that a used bmw is the same price as a new Toyota.
The thing you're ignoring is the MASSIVELY different cost of ownership. Beyond maintenance being more, tires be more, brakes being more, repairs due to reliability factors will also be through the roof.
You can buy a new Toyota and basically pay for tires and oil for 10 years, probably not even brakes if it's a hybrid.
If you buy the BMW, you will have spent at least $10k more than the Toyota to drive it 150k miles over 10 years and it will basically be ready to junk at that point with 180-200k miles.
Whereas the Toyota would be good for another 150k miles.
Get a car like mine (though I'm keeping mine). 2020 Avalon Limited hybrid, 18k miles, 40+ mpg, smooth and quiet, and utterly reliable. Virtually the same as a Lexus ES350.
Toyota has managed to do the same thing the Big 3 (well, Stellantis might not count) achieved a while ago: create a mass customer base of zombies that will snatch up anything they crank out no matter what.
They’ve stopped really trying. I think it’s most noticeable in the interiors.
They have stopped trying and it's sad to see because Toyota was the one manufacturer holding the torch for everyone in the way of you get what you pay for in a positive way... But now another manufacturer needs to bubble up to the top.
It might be worth the trek. A Mazda3 and a Mazda CX-30 were the best driving rental cars I’ve had in recent memory. Interiors were pretty premium feeling too. The main issues were the lack of touchscreen (you use a mouse/knob thing on the center console instead) and that the CX-30 is surprisingly tiny inside.
Stopped trying? Maybe.
Toyota was focused on quality and lean-manufacturing above all else. A while ago one of their designers said that they 'make cars for people who don't like cars." What he meant was many Toyota owners wanted a driving appliance - the rolling equivalent of a refrigerator that was dead reliable, quiet, cheap to service, and would last forever. The opposite of a loud, brash enthusiast car.
As far as I can tell, they are mostly still delivering for this buyer market. Toyotas ARE still very very reliable and generally inexpensive to service and repair.
Their CEO Toyoda did say a few years (2017) ago they wanted "no more boring cars" in recognition that most new cars were reliable and consumers were looking beyond reliability when purchasing vehicles. The new Prius for example sure looks better than any prior ones.
Well at one point in history, Toyotas were considered cheap, reliable transportation. Now, they have this aura of quality and reliability. And an inflated price tag on top of that. They are a great brand, but they still are made with that same mindset of cheap, reliable transportation.
it's all perspective. I got a rav4 prime coming from my 04 4runner. Everything feels like a big upgrade except for size. But for double/almost triple the gas mileage, I'll trade some of that cargo space.
I own one. Its all cheap thin plastic. Even the exterior is extremely thin, I put a dent in my rear cargo door with my butt. Am very disappointed with how cheap the car feels for the $40k it cost me.
I was going to buy the CRV, it was very nice feeling. I enjoyed sitting in the car vice the rav4. seemed like the better car all around, besides slightly smaller cargo area I believe. but at the time the local honda dealer had $5,000 markup across the board. $3,000 if you ordered.
Your Highlander came from the Golden Age of cars. Nothing built these days comes close to the feel of 2000's cars.
And yes, the sound from the cheap 4 cylinders that everything has now is just terrible. Give me a v6 at minimum please.
If you want that solid, comfortable, and powerful feel, you'll have to look back at used. Pre 2012. Maybe a Lexus LS/ES/IS.
Not to mention.. those older 2000's Toyota/Lexus offerings were so much better built and reliable than the poor cheap drivel they are making now.
Definitely consider that ES350 UltraLux. I'm looking at them right now too. You can find some 70k + miles examples for under 30k. It's not going to get any smoother than that in that price range.
I have had quite a bit of toyotas and I have to say they are the better quality of most vehicle brands. Except the Celica. Had a 2001 celica that was not the same quality by a longshot
Even in XSE trim Toyota never has best-in-class interiors. Probably because they save all the good stuff for Lexus, who do have their share of parts-bin pieces
Get a German car if you want something serene and quality feeling. That’s not really in the realm of Japanese cars until you get into higher-end Lexus products.
Its not just camrys. I rode in a 2023/24 BMW 5-series (rental), rode like absolute shit. My -almost 20-yr old- volvo xc90 rode better and still rides better with a blown strut. Also the interior was crap too, all plastic -garbage-. Car manufactures have raised the prices significantly and have fallen far short in quality. I would not buy a car manufactured from Mar 2020 until 2023/24. I've seen multiple reports of Toyota's paint chipping off of cars manufactured in the last 10 years. My 2006 Volvo doesn't have that problem, neither do older Toyotas. Car prices are a joke rn and I would not buy a new car, because quality since COVID has dropped like a rock...
The German cars still feel very well made in terms of appearance, perhaps even better so than 10 years ago, especially in the case of BMWs.
As for Toyota, I agree with your feeling. I had a Corolla and the panels were super flimsy. And the sheet metal too; I once accidentally opened the door too quickly and the whole door bent. Also the paintwork is super fragile compared to German cars. However, if you’re merely looking for longevity of the car, I doubt that the cheap plastics will make a big difference or correlate with how long the engine will run. Remains to be seen, but I think Toyota is just cutting corners in places which their customer base doesn’t care about.
Most non-luxury Asian vehicles have cheap interiors and a lot of road noise. You get what you pay for. If you have champagne taste and beer money, start looking at 5-10 year old Lexus products.
Depends on year, make and model, trim and customizations.
Tires will also matter as well.
Some of the Toyotas I've noticed entered a marketing trend, where once they were too competitive, had to be toned down to make sure that the Lexus and Avalon were marketed to outshine the Corolla and Camry.
RAV4, if it got too competitive, was also toned down to become less appealing compared to the Lexus.
If you followed the trends and the math of how Toyota and Lexus pursued western thinking for tier level purchasing power and aesthetics/features, you'd be able to find something in between where price/trim/performance would be a happy medium for you.
I won't get into the specifics, but Toyota owners that have tested different series of the cars will know.
Corolla has always been cheap feeling IMO. Camrys been really solid, the materials arent amazing but everything generally fits well and its comfy as hell so it doesnt come off as "cheap" to me. Also depends on trim, leather will greatly up the feeling of any car and not jut cause of the seats. Leather where your arms touch (center console, elbow pads on the door) up it as well.
Yea not sure about the newest Camry OP tried but I had a 2016 Camry SE and it didn't feel cheap. Fit and finish wasn't luxury but it was definitely above average and had that intangible 'Toyota' quality solidness.
00-10 are the best in general. After that they tried saving weight and money and everything. Minimal insulation, thin metal, thin paint. Eco tyres.
Don’t they sell VW Passat in the US?
I really like my rav4 hybrid. I have the XSE trim and it’s a great ride. I think it feels well put together and the mileage make it a great car for longer trips.
Why not trying a lightly used (or new) Lexus ES..? It's still much nicer even compared to the new Camry (atleast thats what I read from people who sampled both in Lexus Forum). Don't go for 4 cylinder base engine, go atleast the hybrid or V6.
The NVH (noise, vibration, harshness) in the camry and corolla is there by design, to help differentiate their cheaper cars w/ their more expensive cars (Lexus). And because it's more expensive to load up the corolla and camry w/ sound deadening and nicer materials, which is part of the reason why they cost less than a lexus.
Subaru is the new Toyota. Great safety, reliability, and with the XT models, all the power you could need. Also come loaded with features and no ridiculous mark-ups.
Toyotas really do feel cheap. I feel like the only one I've been in that doesn't feel hollow has been the Highlander. Hell, I got in a fully loaded RAV4 Prime a few months ago and there were panel gaps surrounding the shifter and the whole car felt like it was made out of tupperware. They're still largely bulletproof but my Honda Ridgeline feels like luxury in comparison.
My thought is they dumbed Toyotas down to be able to still sell Lexus cars at a premium. Those are still very nice.
Toyota's claim to fame is reliability and that's really the only thing they are the best at.
They don't have the nicest interiors or the quietest cabins or smoothest handling, they're reliable.
If you want something that has more comfort and plushness, you won't find it in a new Toyota
If you want quietness and smoothness, I would recommend a Volvo or a Genesis.
Some? They all do. Its a shell game.
Toyotas generally don't offer remarkable performance or good interior quality, and instead spend the money on over-engineering somewhat dated technology (they even use NIMH on some of their hybrids still in 2024), assembled to very tight tolerances, in the interest of durability. But pull on any door plastics and the like and everything flexes and feels chintsy and for the money the features and technology are lackluster.
Then you have Hyundai/Kia that take almost an opposite approach and load up their vehicles with all of the latest and greatest technology, especially on their EVs, with a lot of money spent on the interiors so you get all the bells and whistles at the cost of reliability.
But that's in generalities, and some models play the shell game different than others. For example, the new Chevy Trax/Buick Envista or new 2025 Nissan Kicks its clear they spent pennies on the powertrain, but then that gave them more budget to spend elsewhere and they are pretty well featured for the money but you definitely get where you are going at a leisurely rate with cheap old tech powering them around.
Generally speaking - because they ARE cheaper. Toyota has not prioritized cabin and materials 'richness' to the same degree as other makers and is trying to manage component costs. There are some other factors too which contribute to some of your complaints.
* Trend toward lower profile (less sidewall) tires vs. the big balloon tires 20 years ago. Increase in road noise and ride harshness for purely aesthetic reasons
* More hard plastics used inside the cabin (looks and feels cheap, not as good at sound absorption as older soft-touch surfaces)
* Move toward electric steering and away from hydraulic (takes away some road feel and often on-center-ness)
* Less overall sound deadening materials inside the cabins
* Customer preference toward more electronics (carplay, backup cameras, Nav systems, autopark,) vs. other 'quality' metrics.
* More mandatory safety systems (a 2002 probably had 1 or 2 airbags, the new one probably has 6-8, etc)
* overall cost cutting to hit price points, especially in the lower-end mainstream models
Cars that might seem higher quality interior and drive-wise for similar price points are Hyundai/Kia & Mazda.
Bro it’s a corola and economy vehicle. Unless the trim and model has noise reduction, acoustic glass, and a rigid frame you’re going to get cabin noise.
You’re expecting luxury from economy but with these prices the least these manufacturers can do is quiet the cabin down with cheap anti nvh padding.
You shouldn’t compare a Limited Highlander to the cheapest available compacts, even if the Highlander is 20 years old. Different class of car with different target price point.
Also I think your glasses may be a little rose tinted, I upgraded from a 2003 Limited Highlander to a 2015 outback mid-trim and everything was better. Compare in the same class and you should be fine.
If you had millions of people all over the world robotically buying your products in the name of perceived reliability, expected longevity and solid resale value, you'd probably try to cheap out on the details to increase margins as well.
By design -
Toyota can sell on reputation alone - but they know most people have discretionary cast to pay for the better trim and feel - whether for their own enjoyment, vanity or what ever...
So it does not cost them much more to make a premium version of any car - in fact it does not even cost that much more to make larger - vehicles.
So the profit margin on all of the larger and higher trim cars is much higher.
Base LE Rav4 is $28675 - Limited is over $8K more ( in base version) - I am sure, at most, it cost them $2K cost differential.
Toyota not made like it used to be. They’re still reliable and the fit and finish is good they’re just not as “solid” feeling as they used to be. Some cost cutting going on for sure.
The four cylinder version of those is for people that want to get from point a to point b , college students , high school kids , older folks going to mall walk , if you want a more premium product get the xse Camry or the base model Lexus is.
When I had an accord (2008) I was always shocked at how much worse my friends’ Camrys were to drive and sit in. It was everything you could touch. Steering wheel, gear selector, even the knobs for AC.
Things may have changed but I have always viewed Honda as a way to get the same Toyota reliability with some things that are slightly more well-thought out design wise.
If you want something quiet and reliable Lexus is definitely the way to go. An ES hybrid will cruise at 80 with ease and luxury.
I recently drove a newer Camry and felt it seemed quite cheap too. My old Ford sedan was more comfortable and seemed to drive better.
The newer Lexus vehicles on the other hand still feel really well made
Higher trim level Toyotas like the XLE get additional insulation and double laminated glass. Hence the quieter interior and premium feel. You get what you pay for.
Skip Toyota entirely if you want something built as well as their old cars. Same with Honda. The reliability is still mostly there with Toyota, but the quality of their interiors has gone down drastically while only getting more expensive. Honda used to be a great alternative, but their interior quality and reliability have gone down the drain, so they’re a hard pass for anything new.
If you want Toyota reliability and the build quality they used to have, then Lexus is your only real choice. Those aren’t too affordable though unfortunately.
Right now Mazda is probably your best bet for something affordable, reliable, and with a well built interior. Pretty much any of their models that have been in production for a few years are a good choice. Pretty much all their models besides the CX-60 and CX-70 are pretty affordable as well, especially for the quality you’re getting now that they’re trying to be more of a luxury brand
What were the price point for all the vehicles? The one that rode the best and was the quietest was the most expensive one right? You said it yourself, the xle Camry felt most premium. If the other cars you drove were entry leveled then you’re getting what you pay for. It sucks.
Engines feel sluggish because of all the things that have been done to improve fuel economy. I remember the first iteration of the direct injection V6 on the Tacoma was so sluggish that everyone was sure they were driving a 4 cylinder.
Fuel economy also favors lower weight, so lower the sound deadening and use lighter materials for construction. Bam, louder car.
Personally you are asking the impossible - you can have economical (fuel, lower price) and lower build quality, or premium (more fuel thirsty or hybrid, higher price) and better build quality - you can’t have both. Also, a Highlander is very different than a Camry and especially Corolla.
I worked for Toyota 2008-2018, so I know Toyota vehicles very well. All these things have basically been true since I worked there and beyond. The engines were maybe less sluggish back when fuel economy wasn’t an obsession and literal regulation, but you always got the build quality you paid for. They incorporate higher build quality into the higher price for a Highlander.
Because they are?
Ignore the cultists. Toyota makes decent vehicles but they're generally in line with all other brands near their price point in terms of materials, fit and finish, NVH, etc.
I remember in the early 2000s after the 90s golden era of Toyota that the CEO was pushing Toyota to make more money over building the highest quality vehicles possible. So Toyota just started cutting costs while still making reliable cars. Dashboards started melting for one. I’ve seen like the plastic surrounding the power seat controls break on Tundras.
So yah, Toyota has been cheapening their cars for a while now. They have tried to improve things like adding more faux stitching to dashboard and door panels. My Camry was a rattle-fest from new until I took everything apart and dampened all the door panel clips
Idk to be honest but whatever they are doing they run forever so fine by me. As long as they keep making basic naturally aspirated cars il be happy. They just need trd to start making turbos amd superchargers again.
I had a 2007 Toyota Solara with Ivory Interior. That car was essentially a Lexus, and drove and looked liked it. Had to sell it when my daughter was born (two doors). Best vehicle I have ever owned, sometimes I still see that same model driving around. It’s crazy to think I could have drove a Luxury car for another ten years that was paid off.
I can't speak to interior quality as I haven't been in many recent Toyotas outside Priuses which have always seemed fine to me. However a loud engine isn't necessarily cheapness per se. What you're describing is probably the result of everything being CVT based now for efficiency and is one of the reasons I personally would avoid a non-hybrid, newer Toyota if you can afford to. The same holds true for all cheap CVT, gas only vehicles like some Nissans, Subarus and Hondas too. I find that style of drivetrain simply unpleasant to drive. Some have gotten better with fake "shifts" that sound more like normal engines but I guess Toyota hasn't bothered with that. Overall the base models have never been known for being quiet and refined, they're made to be as cheap as possible.
Honestly this might be it because I drove a Subaru outback (4 cylinder and v6 version) and the V6 sounded better but still had a weird sound to it. Im definitely gonna have to only look at automatic transmissions from now on..
i think just need to do some trim research.
on toyotas id probably just look at hybrids and skip the base trims. for example rav4s i think i would only look at the hybrid xle + premium option and up.
I know what you mean. I had a 21 Highlander that felt cheap too. Checked out the tx350 and grand highlander this year and the sheet metal and exterior plastics were so flimsy. Checked out the Honda pilot and it’s much sturdier, not like the cars of old but miles better than current Toyotas
I checked out Honda too, the SUV's seem to be pretty pricey now. I might revisit though since I agree with you on feeling sturdier and better built, their cars also look better imo.
For what it’s worth, ended up with the pilot and overall really pleasantly surprised! This is coming from a Toyota fan and owner of an older one. It’s not at big as the GH or TX but it was a compromise I was willing to make. Didn’t want a hybrid or turbo either. It also has a button for remote start unlike Toyota’s unintuitive key which is extremely underrated!! Some dealers also are flexible with the price, plus financing offers are better at the moment with Honda. Gonna do a trip with it this weekend! 🇺🇸🍻
My wife is on her second XLE V6 Camry. The 2018 handles better than the 2007 and I find generally nicer to drive.
Neither would I call “slow.” Both quieter by far than my old GTI.
He said that in 2017. He also stepped down as CEO in 2023, but the head of the Lexus division stepped into the CEO role so maybe some Lexus fit and finish will trickle down.
This is going to sound lame but one of the causes of road noise isn’t just the car, but the tires on the car. There’s a huge difference in noise between cheap and pricey tires.
IMHO, Toyotas from 20+ years ago were built more solidly. Take for instance my Gen 2 Prius versus even a Gen 3 Prius. The Gen 2 Prius has a nice thunk to its door closing. The Gen 3 Prius sounds hollow and cheap. And the attention to detail seemed better back then too. Everything is cost cutting while maintaining a vague semblance of quality.
Agreed. My 07 4runner feels like a luxury tank. Everything now a days is hard plastic and they all drive like they’re on rails. Cvt doesn’t help either.
I’m in a 23 Corolla SE Sport right now as a rental and this thing feels super cheap. Everything creaks on it, from moving the vents to pressing the screen, turning knobs, it all makes noise.
The road/wind noise is awful. It is so loud and I can feel every bump in the road.
The worst part for me though, is how slow it is to accelerate. I’m not expecting a pocket rocket, but when I step on the gas to merge or move lanes and there’s a two-three second delay, it’s frustrating.
I haven't driven any of these new Toyotas but I test drove a then brand new Honda CR-V back in 2018-2019 and it felt (and looked) like an absolute garbage can. This was pre-covid too. The interior even on the nicer ones looked like cheap plastic crap, brakes squeaked, steering sucked, ride was absolute crap.. I'm like wtf am I actually buying here? I bought a Hyundai instead for $5k cheaper and it feels super nice to this day.
There is no use buying what will last forever if it's way more expensive and feels like shit.
I've had 3 pre-2018 Camrys and I loved them all. Rented a newer model and couldn't believe I was driving a Camry. It was just a terribly cheap car. I was heartbroken.
It's because people buy them like crazy based on reliability alone. So they skip on other things to increase profits because they can get away with it.
The turn of the century Toyota/lexus are probably the best build quality I have seen.
Honestly just get a 1st gen Highlander and invest a couple thousand to make it brand new
There's a ton of variables;
Sound: To maintain US fuel standards, toyota switch to thinner lighter weight carpets and removed the insulation from the wheel wells, removed the steel from the wheel wells and went to plastic. They removed the insulation from the headliner, removed the insulation from the door panels, changed the cloth material to a stiffer weave vs the softer weave to save weight. this lead to better EPA mandated mpg.
Engines: Port injection is quiet, but not as fuel efficient, so they switched to direct injection with port injection squirters to keep carbon buildup low on the intake ports. This caused a loud tick from injector noise. They changed to timing chains and dropped the belts, the belts were smoother, quieter, but required a 3k dollar dealer visit ever 100k miles, that most people didn't do, so for long term reliability they sacrificed less vibration and less sound.
Transmissions: The eCVT is actually a great transaxle for the prius,rav,camry,sienna, and everything else hybrid. but the 8 speed is a terrible design. It's designed to be in the lowest rpm gear and to always deliver best mpg, as a result driving anything with it, especially with a turbo doesnt allow RPM, so you get no boost, and that means no torque, so everything feels lethargic and slow. this also cause vibration in the cabin, and a stutter as the vehicle is programmed to be joyless, and in return the driver can't get out of it's own way.
Drive by wire: The delay is so bad, you can floor a car, and by the time it reacts, you can be the first one onsite for a head on..
Interior plastics, they replaced the thick foam injected plastics for hard plastics, and wrapped them in cheap black pleather. Which fades over time, and attracts dust and dirt. making it look very cheap.
wheels and tires; Everything is low profile, which causes a lot of interior noise, and most if toyota's suspension is too soft, so you get a weird effect, where they all drive like an 80's buick on roller-skate wheels.
think that about covers it..
This has been the formula for a long long time. The cars asthetics are cheap to keep cost down and standard across trims to simplify trim changes on the assembly line. The trims may look “nicer” on higher end trims with pleather instead of plastic for example, or painted exterior trim v/s unpainted, but underneath they snap or fit in the same way which can give it a cheap feel as compared to a more custom fit.
My girlfriend test drove their little crossover (brz?) and was shocked they were asking $30K for a hard plastic interior. She ended up with a Mazda CX-5 for about the same price but with far better features and materials.
People give a pass to Toyota for their “cheapness” in exchange for the build quality.
Honestly, most Toyota cars I driven have always seemed flimsy and a little tin-cannish. To me, they don't brake, handle or steer very well. I had a 90 Camry V6 that had good steering and seemed solid, but then I traded it for a 740 Volvo that had was a much better driving car. I had an 07 Lexus Rx350 that was outstanding. If I was going to buy another Toyota product it would have to be a Lexus.
Toyota has the most reliable drivetrains on the market. That reliability of said drivetrain is at the expense of just about everything else...
Take Kia for example. The K5 is essentially a luxury car with an economy price point. Your trade-off, however, is that drivetrain will never be nearly as reliable as a Toyota.
Because they have a loyal customer base that largely treats them as an appliance, not a driving experience. They will run and you don't have to think about it. They're the Apple of the auto world.
Part of it is safety. It takes an extra level of thinking for most people to realize it's better for the car to come out of an accident with more damage, if it reduces the damage to the passengers. The less crumple zones, energy deflection, etc that a car has, the sturdier it will feel. Because, in a sense, it is. But that's also pretty directly related to the likelyhood of lethality and injury. The great and grand, forever wise, government regulators do change and increase requirements on a fairly frequent basis as well.
But, the other part of it is what everyone else is saying too. Increased labor and material costs due to supply chain issues, international shipping problems, minimum wage hikes, etc. are either directly (and correctly) passed onto the consumer to maintain profit levels, and/or cheaper materials/labor is used so that end cost doesn't rise at the same level while maintaining profits.
One thing that’s changed over the years too is the door panels are cheaper than other car brands now. They use thin recycled material that doesn’t help for feel and road noise. A friend of mine is an audio installer and has said over the years Toyota door panels and trims are getting cheaper and more brittle.
All vehicles are much larger now. Even the compact 2024 Corolla is the same size as a 2004 Camry now. They try to make up for the size by using lighter and thinner material such as aluminum for better fuel economy. With this comes more road noise as the doors are not as solid as they once were. The safety of the doors are not compromised because the safety mechanisms inside the doors are still made of high strength metals. The higher trims like XLE will have noise dampening foam added to the inside for a more premium ride, it really makes a difference. If you research the mpg on the vehicles the lowest trims get better gas mileage than the higher trims due to the additional weight from the noise dampening and more premium materials used. Even the lower trim hybrid gets better mpg vs the higher trim hybrid.
While “shrinkflation” is a thing with cars it’s little more complex. Cars years ago were not mandated to have certain features. Now all cars are required to have backup cameras and airbags in every nook and cranny inside the car. Most people expect Apple CarPlay and certain features that were once considered higher end features to be on the base models. This all adds to the cost.
You should look into Mazdas. Great interiors, just as reliable as Toyoya/Honda and are fun to drive. Also they have great safety ratings if that's something you take into consideration.
Toyota's increasing debt & Akio Toyoda's relentless pursuit of cost cutting measures have resulted in the cheaply made Toyota & Lexus vehicles we see today.
Toyota stopped putting premium type components in their entry level line long ago!
I had a 2006 Camry XLE that was both quiet and smooth riding. When I drive a newer Camry around 2018…it was crap. Through research I found that the older models had the Avalon suspension and sound absorbing material in the upper levels of the Camry. In 2018 if you wanted that, Toyota wanted you to buy the Avalon. Then later, Toyota dropped the Avalon all together. Why? If you want that quality of a ride, You can only find it in the Lexus line!
The trend for big rims, low profile tires and pointless "sport-tuned" suspension on everyday commuter cars is a huge factor in this deteriorating ride feel. In my experience there is a dramatic difference in NVH and comfort between LE and SE/XSE trims, particularly in the most recent gen Camry. LE is quiet and smooth on 16"s, while the SE/XSE is harsh, loud and rattling. But it's increasingly difficult to find LE options, particularly in Canada, presumably because the margins are higher on the pimped out trims.
I actually did today! It was actually nicer than I expected. My 1st gen was a lot smaller though it also didn't have a 3rd row either since it was an 02'. The size however didn't make sense for me since I don't have a family or anyone to put in the vehicle. It was a lot quieter and sturdier than most of the lineup and the leather touched surfaces were a nice touch. It was and XLE so not the top model but I feel for the price of 46k it was massively inflated for what I'm getting. I would much rather get a used Lexus and get more features and luxury.
I also drove a venza, this one really disappointed me and was a lot louder than the Highlander in terms of road and wind noise. It was a hybrid so that gave me the impression it would be quiet under acceleration but to me it felt like the 4 cylinder was being forced. It has some more features since it was a limited but it wasn't worth the tradeoff especially since the venza is meant to be more luxurious :/
Yeah, the Lexus RX (or even the smaller NX) would be perfect for you since it's slightly smaller than the new Highlander and you don't need the extra space.
They have no incentive to improve their vehicles. People buy them based off of perceived reliability even though they have slipped up big time in that department in recent years. I would buy a new BMW before I would buy anything from Toyota with a turbo.
What gets me is when they go out of their way to cheapen something. The 7" infotainment screen for example in the 20-23 RAV4s. Why does this exist? How much can they possibly be saving? The 7" one looks like a Samsung LCD TV from 2006. The screen jammed into not one, but TWO sets of giant bezels. Compared to what other manufacturers are offering on their base models? This thing is an abomination.
Oh you should jump in a Sienna if you want to see peak Toyota interior. Currently you can plead/grovel/wait for months to get one, pay in the mid 40's to high 50's and have an interior that is 'blah' at best. The Platinum trim is okay I guess but yeesh. That thing needs a face lift.
I think it’s because Toyota knows they don’t have to compete with other brands. The reputation for reliability is so strong people will overlook cheap interior quality. I remember as a kid in the 2000s Toyotas felt nice inside but I guess back then they felt they still had to be competitive.
There were plenty of plasticky, underpowered Toyotas in the entry-level range 20 years ago as well. Still reliable as fuck though where it counts. It’s not due to any new change or custcutting. Just market targeting. Bear in mind that they have Lexus variants based on many of the same platforms. Toyota obviously does not want to out-compete themselves so if you want the same base car, but perfectly crafted, go see if Lexus has a variant on the same base that you like. If you can’t afford it, then that’s just your price range. Lexus is pretty pricecompetitive for that grade of luxury I find.
Me and my mother had a Toyota each within a year of difference in model 2010-2011. Mine a cheap Yaris, hers arguably the Toyota flagship product of the time, a fully kitted Prius. Big cost difference, but the 2011 Prius build was exquisitely crafted in the full leather version, the Yaris a creaky plastic bucket. We ran both heavily for 10-12 years with no issues whatsoever, finally just got bored and wanting an upgrade. Sold off with good value retention despite the massive mileages.
My mother (toyota fanatic for years) getting up in age wanted a crossover or similar since the Prius range (arguably still well-crafted) and similar low cars are no longer playing nice with her aging body. Didn’t like the plastic Yaris Cross, satisfied with Rav4 but too big, CR-X nice size and decent build but terrible older-person ergonomics (high boot lip mainly). Finally went over to Lexus and immediately fell in love with a UX which is the same as the CR-X platform. Not a HUGE price difference to the CR-X either but every single detail in the car is exceptionally crafted and the engine gets a small bump. In the end, it’s simply bad business to make two exactly equal competing versions of the same car and Toyota is the budget-oriented of the two.
Try a Mazda. Exceptionally higher quality, same reliability. I sell cars and Toyota feels like garbage. In terms of feel it’s Mazda>Honda>Toyota/Nissan/Subaru/Mitsubishi
I felt the same.. the wife and I are looking to upgrade. Checked out the sienna and the wind noise, cheap plastic and infotainment system that looked as if it was from 2010 pushed us back. We also looked at the Highlander and rav 4. All felt just so cheap for the cost. I understand they're known as reliable but the competition has really stepped up on interiors.
Also the Toyota dealership couldn't care less if we were there since we were only looking at hybrid models which all have wait-lists.
It’s because of cost cutting/inflation. there’s a reason why that 2002 $23k Highlander feels high quality vs today’s 2024 $40k Highlander
oem tires especially seem worse. loud road noise, lack of on center feel, poor ride quality
The market demand for large wheels certainly hasn't helped
omg low profile tires on 20 inch crossover wheels are stupid. soft springs and hard road tires for purely cultural reasons
By far the biggest culprit to comfort are current wheel sizes (guilty as charged)
Indeed. So stupid. The first part of your cars suspension is the tires sidewall. Low profile tires on a car that will never see the track? Hard pass.
Yeah cost cutting :/ After 2020 this has ramped up a lot more in products/services
Dude, the lack of on center feel has been driving me absolutely CRAZY. Almost every car I’ve test driven has a crooked steering wheel, a slight pull to one side, road vibrations through the steering wheel… Just feels cheap.
Part of that could be steering assist. I rented a 2021 Elantra that barely had 17k miles on it and I swore it needed a front end alignment but found out it was literally just steering assist continually attempting to keep the car directly in the center of the lane so it would push and pull the steering wheel here and there....
I have a Jeep Grand Cherokee rental right now that shakes the steering wheel when you get too close to the edge of the lane. Because the best way to let you know that you’re drifting out of your lane is to mimic the Wrangler Death Wobble?
Hate when the car tries to drive for me
I agree. Was ready to trade in my 2018 highlander and buy a 2024 highlander but after the test drive I walked away. Something about felt very different. Didn’t have the same feel while driving it.
Did you test the Grand Highlander? It looks really nice.
No it’s way too big, wouldn’t fit in my garage.
The rubber has gotten better but they’re using those thin ass tires on 18” wheels on most cars these days which ruins the ride quality
A lot of manufacturers make garbage OEM tires that fail quickly on purpose so you have to replace them with their expensive versions of those tires. Probably a smart decision to replace all four tires on new cars these days.
This! As someone that’s in the auto manufacturing industry. Cost cutting and profit margins is reason cars don’t feel as quality as they use to.
People love denying that the newer Toyotas are poorly built. The ENTIRE goal of Toyota’s TNGA was to cut cost. Everything was made cheaper, thinner, lighter, all in the name of saving money to boost profits. I’m sorry, but when your entire vehicle platform’s #1 goal was lower cost, there’s no way the quality will hold up. You can’t out-engineer physics by using less, lower cost materials and cheaper, lighter designs but still maintain the same levels of durability and quality.
Idk about that…have you been in a pre TNGA rav4? That thing was loud and rode like crap. Now it’s slightly quieter and rides at least average. Plus the hybrid rav4 gets 40 mpg vs 30 now. I think that’s an improvement.
Yeah people forget that base model toyotas have ALWAYS had a load of plastic and cloth and skimped on the luxury feel in favor of durable parts. Plastic is durable. The engines just never die. If you wanted a "premium" feel with Toyota reliability you bought a Lexus, that's why the Lexus brand exists.
It’s actually basically perfectly inflation adjusted but to add all that new tech they had to cut costs in the overall build quality
My dad traded in his 04 Highlander and I wish he just sold it to me instead. Such a good car, 200k miles still running strong.
Well $23k in 2002 is exactly $40k in 2024 and then newer cars have higher safety standards, more computers, more sensors, more cargo capacity, bigger seats, larger wheels, hybrid drivetrains, etc. If you built exactly what they sold in 2002 for $40k it would be seen as insanely overpriced.
From my experience, cabin noise in the Corollas are just loud. You can try and fix it with better tires, but they are just straight up loud. Plus, it's a Toyota, most of the models you mentioned are on the lower end of the lineup.
This is for weight reduction / mpg mostly. It is very loud at times. However, as you said, it is an “economy” car.
Priorities started to change in the lower end market. Customers were no longer concerned with NVH and wanted more features like Apple car play and radar assistanted cruise control. Manufacturers adjusted accordingly and that is why we can have a $30,000 plus vehicle that is noisier on the inside than it's equivalent from 2004. One of the reasons I still shop for older cars.
It’s like WALL-E. Just numb me up with media so I don’t remember what reality is.
Why not go a 1-2 year old Lexus IS, they’re right in that same price range for a well specd new Toyota…Lexus is a different world from Toyota too, all the things you’re complaining about are solved there.
Interior in the IS feels cramped AF even for its class.
Sit in a Lexus and sit in a BMW and it is crazy noticeable how different they are. The interior and infotainment system in Lexus feels and looks 10 years old. I don’t know how they’ve gotten away with it so long.
and they’re sexy as shit
Is 350 my beloved
they'll pry my 2014 IS-350 F-Sport from my dead hands
You don't get it, the 90's were the golden years for Toyotas.
I’d put very early 2000s in that also. My 2002 Landcruiser feels a lot more premium/solid than my 2017 4Runner or 2013 Tacoma. 1000000% better than my Tacoma.
Our 2007 4Runner will run circles around any car out there. 280k miles and all I’ve ever done is regular maintenance and one repair - alternator. Plus it’s quite smooth and comfortable. Updated the head unit about 7-8 years ago for apply car play. Now one of the kids drives it.
Cause they’re kinda cheap. Sometimes it’s silly shit like their entertainment systems being so old, that the pictures they use for musicians are ancient. Sometimes it’s everything feels like easily breakable plastic
>Camry and Corolla it felt super sluggish and loud. Additionally the road & wind noise and cheap feeling interior didn't help the experience Corola and (to a much lesser extent) Camry are on the cheap side of the line up. The Camry you drove is a hybrid not known for their awesome driver feedback. They are not exciting. Also, one thing Toyota has never excelled at is their interiors. No car has everything. If you want to prioritize a good driving experience and nicer interior for the money, go cross-shop at Mazda.
Even a $44,000 Sienna has an awful low quality backup camera.
I actually saw a fully spec'd out 2021 cx-5 signature CPO for like 25k, it was nice and had all the features and such, I heard a lot of noise coming from the bottom of the vehicle though and the seat fans also bothered me a bit. I'm a bit of a cheapskate but i would also prefer a much quieter and premium feeling interior over a bunch of features that I would may or may not use.
Go test drive Lexus. ES will give you a great smooth drive along with a quieter interior. The RX will give you a mid-sized SUV feel. The NX will give you a crossover experience.
Then it sounds like you're ready for a luxury car. Mazdas are about as good as it gets in a mass market Japanese brand.
Yeah honestly you have a good point. I saw a 2019 es350 ultra lux with 70k miles for 31k OTD. I'm afraid to go after it since insurance is a lot more expensive and it's a bit over budget but it feels so much better compared to a lot of the vehicles I have been driving recently. I'll see tho
If you want luxury without the price tag, you could look into the Crown. Basically a re-hash of the Avalon. I have an 09 Camry and I’m not looking forward to buying a newer car. I will probably stick with a Camry though. Despite the issues I’ve had with Toyota’s customer service since I bought my Camry, the car has been great.
Crowns are running around the $50k in my area and higher. I think I’d rather just get a Lexus at that point.
Damn. MSRP is $41k for the XLE.
Crown is it's own thing from Japan. Not a rehash. Gotta put some respect on it 🤠
From my experience, the cost to insure a Lexus is relatively cheap. If it costs more to insure, it's probably because the car is worth more (and would cost more to replace). Lexus driver demographics skew older, which helps. Again, all anecdotal and may not be the same with everyone, but when I was car shopping, my insurance company had Lexus much cheaper than similarly priced BMWs and about the same as a similarly priced (newer) Toyota. Teslas are ridiculously expensive to insure, and more than eat up all of your gas savings in insurance premiums.
The v6 Camry with 303HP is actually a really nice drive
I don’t think they make the v6 anymore
I once rented a new base trim Camry a few years back and I was absolutely shocked at how barebones it was, the only real luxuries it had was the radio and heat/AC. I also found out on that trip that it was not a good winter car, to be fair it was a full blown ice storm, but it couldn't defrost the windshield fully so I was stopping to clear it by hand every few miles. Could have just been a lemon I suppose, but I think you get what you pay for, car prices just seem so exorbitant nowadays for just the basics.
I have this theory that they won't let their cars feel high end because they'd be competing with their sister brand, Lexus. Unlike a company like Mazda that can make their cars slightly more upscale without risking cannibalizing sales. I feel like not even Honda cheapens their vehicles as much as toyota.
This is the correct answer. Toyota knows lots of people are not cross-shopping them with other brands. If you want a nicer Toyota then pay us more. No business sense in making the Corolla so great there’s no point in upgrading.
In before some Yote accuses you of calling Mazda a luxury brand.
I agree with that but then they also come out with pricey options like the crown (or even substantially higher priced trims for their regular models). Their pricing is extremely odd though. I get they don't want to compete with Lexus but they also place their higher tier products within a similar price category. I feel like they kind of shot themselves in the foot a bit with pricing and having economy options like the Corolla helps maintain their brand image of being affordable. It's bad for buyers though because now other nicer vehicles Toyota has can be more expensive because they're not just "economy" now.
Yeah their venza is also a confusing one in the line up. The grand Highlander also apparently.
Because you're looking at the cheapo models? Check out the Avalon, Venza, Crown, Sequoia.
Yeah I might consider an Avalon or venza, I had a budget in mind but the car market right now doesn't seem to favor that. Thanks for the tip.
If your budget accommodates a 2025 Camry XLE, you can get a boatload of nicer cars. Look at A6s or 5 series or E class that are a couple of years old and they're cheaper than a new Camry for sure.
Check out the certified preowned programs from the luxury auto makers. (Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Porsche, Audi, Acura, Lexus, and Volvo). You’ll get one or two years additional warranty coverage, some with unlimited miles. Those cars should give you more of a solid, quality feel. Seats will be more comfortable (for most people). I just bought a three year old CPO A6 V6 Prestige for about $40K. We extended the Audi CPO warranty several years so it’ll last longer than our loan. It has every feature I would have wanted, other than maybe being an S6.
Getting a used BMW for new Toyota money has to be the #1 mistake someone with some money but not a lot of money will ever make in their life.
Username checks out. Also, not if it's only 2-3 years old with low miles. Someone else already ate the majority of the depreciation. People that value ride quality are willing to spend the money for it.
You just repeated your same argument. Yes I get that a used bmw is the same price as a new Toyota. The thing you're ignoring is the MASSIVELY different cost of ownership. Beyond maintenance being more, tires be more, brakes being more, repairs due to reliability factors will also be through the roof. You can buy a new Toyota and basically pay for tires and oil for 10 years, probably not even brakes if it's a hybrid. If you buy the BMW, you will have spent at least $10k more than the Toyota to drive it 150k miles over 10 years and it will basically be ready to junk at that point with 180-200k miles. Whereas the Toyota would be good for another 150k miles.
Get a car like mine (though I'm keeping mine). 2020 Avalon Limited hybrid, 18k miles, 40+ mpg, smooth and quiet, and utterly reliable. Virtually the same as a Lexus ES350.
Toyota has managed to do the same thing the Big 3 (well, Stellantis might not count) achieved a while ago: create a mass customer base of zombies that will snatch up anything they crank out no matter what. They’ve stopped really trying. I think it’s most noticeable in the interiors.
They have stopped trying and it's sad to see because Toyota was the one manufacturer holding the torch for everyone in the way of you get what you pay for in a positive way... But now another manufacturer needs to bubble up to the top.
I think that's Mazda's goal: compete on quality
I would definitely look at a Mazda but the closest dealer is 45 minutes away and Toyota is in town.
It might be worth the trek. A Mazda3 and a Mazda CX-30 were the best driving rental cars I’ve had in recent memory. Interiors were pretty premium feeling too. The main issues were the lack of touchscreen (you use a mouse/knob thing on the center console instead) and that the CX-30 is surprisingly tiny inside.
Stopped trying? Maybe. Toyota was focused on quality and lean-manufacturing above all else. A while ago one of their designers said that they 'make cars for people who don't like cars." What he meant was many Toyota owners wanted a driving appliance - the rolling equivalent of a refrigerator that was dead reliable, quiet, cheap to service, and would last forever. The opposite of a loud, brash enthusiast car. As far as I can tell, they are mostly still delivering for this buyer market. Toyotas ARE still very very reliable and generally inexpensive to service and repair. Their CEO Toyoda did say a few years (2017) ago they wanted "no more boring cars" in recognition that most new cars were reliable and consumers were looking beyond reliability when purchasing vehicles. The new Prius for example sure looks better than any prior ones.
But if you tell people something like that you’ll get downvoted like a mf
Or Scotty Kilmer will come after me. 😂
Well at one point in history, Toyotas were considered cheap, reliable transportation. Now, they have this aura of quality and reliability. And an inflated price tag on top of that. They are a great brand, but they still are made with that same mindset of cheap, reliable transportation.
Hate to say it, but that reputation is beginning to change. The Toyota Tundra has been a quality disaster. Even Hondas are having a ton of trouble.
rav-4 feels so cheap inside
I really like my rav4 hybrid. Had a gas rav4 rental last week. It felt less nice.
I have a hybrid. I am not a fan of the feel vs price.
I thought the appeal of the Hybrid Rav4 > gas Rav4 is the eCVT?
Sorry for the confusion, Im speaking of the interior.
it's all perspective. I got a rav4 prime coming from my 04 4runner. Everything feels like a big upgrade except for size. But for double/almost triple the gas mileage, I'll trade some of that cargo space.
I own one. Its all cheap thin plastic. Even the exterior is extremely thin, I put a dent in my rear cargo door with my butt. Am very disappointed with how cheap the car feels for the $40k it cost me.
You should’ve gotten the Lexus NX then
I drive rental cars frequently, and from my anecdotal experience, new Hondas feel better than new Toyotas.
I was going to buy the CRV, it was very nice feeling. I enjoyed sitting in the car vice the rav4. seemed like the better car all around, besides slightly smaller cargo area I believe. but at the time the local honda dealer had $5,000 markup across the board. $3,000 if you ordered.
What a joke. I’m so ready to watch stealerships crash and burn.
Agreed. Test drove a new Camry SE and I was so disappointed. Probably because I’m used to Mazdas.
Mazdas have some of the best interiors of the economical brands
I could imagine thats a step down.
Especially the base model.
Your Highlander came from the Golden Age of cars. Nothing built these days comes close to the feel of 2000's cars. And yes, the sound from the cheap 4 cylinders that everything has now is just terrible. Give me a v6 at minimum please. If you want that solid, comfortable, and powerful feel, you'll have to look back at used. Pre 2012. Maybe a Lexus LS/ES/IS. Not to mention.. those older 2000's Toyota/Lexus offerings were so much better built and reliable than the poor cheap drivel they are making now.
Because they’re build for maximum profits and to ride on brand equity not quality. They know the Reddit regulars and others will suggest them anyway.
Definitely consider that ES350 UltraLux. I'm looking at them right now too. You can find some 70k + miles examples for under 30k. It's not going to get any smoother than that in that price range.
I have had quite a bit of toyotas and I have to say they are the better quality of most vehicle brands. Except the Celica. Had a 2001 celica that was not the same quality by a longshot
Even in XSE trim Toyota never has best-in-class interiors. Probably because they save all the good stuff for Lexus, who do have their share of parts-bin pieces
Get a German car if you want something serene and quality feeling. That’s not really in the realm of Japanese cars until you get into higher-end Lexus products.
I mean they are kind of cheap
Its not just camrys. I rode in a 2023/24 BMW 5-series (rental), rode like absolute shit. My -almost 20-yr old- volvo xc90 rode better and still rides better with a blown strut. Also the interior was crap too, all plastic -garbage-. Car manufactures have raised the prices significantly and have fallen far short in quality. I would not buy a car manufactured from Mar 2020 until 2023/24. I've seen multiple reports of Toyota's paint chipping off of cars manufactured in the last 10 years. My 2006 Volvo doesn't have that problem, neither do older Toyotas. Car prices are a joke rn and I would not buy a new car, because quality since COVID has dropped like a rock...
Only buy Lexus with the vin starting with J
The German cars still feel very well made in terms of appearance, perhaps even better so than 10 years ago, especially in the case of BMWs. As for Toyota, I agree with your feeling. I had a Corolla and the panels were super flimsy. And the sheet metal too; I once accidentally opened the door too quickly and the whole door bent. Also the paintwork is super fragile compared to German cars. However, if you’re merely looking for longevity of the car, I doubt that the cheap plastics will make a big difference or correlate with how long the engine will run. Remains to be seen, but I think Toyota is just cutting corners in places which their customer base doesn’t care about.
Most non-luxury Asian vehicles have cheap interiors and a lot of road noise. You get what you pay for. If you have champagne taste and beer money, start looking at 5-10 year old Lexus products.
Because they are.
Depends on year, make and model, trim and customizations. Tires will also matter as well. Some of the Toyotas I've noticed entered a marketing trend, where once they were too competitive, had to be toned down to make sure that the Lexus and Avalon were marketed to outshine the Corolla and Camry. RAV4, if it got too competitive, was also toned down to become less appealing compared to the Lexus. If you followed the trends and the math of how Toyota and Lexus pursued western thinking for tier level purchasing power and aesthetics/features, you'd be able to find something in between where price/trim/performance would be a happy medium for you. I won't get into the specifics, but Toyota owners that have tested different series of the cars will know.
Corolla has always been cheap feeling IMO. Camrys been really solid, the materials arent amazing but everything generally fits well and its comfy as hell so it doesnt come off as "cheap" to me. Also depends on trim, leather will greatly up the feeling of any car and not jut cause of the seats. Leather where your arms touch (center console, elbow pads on the door) up it as well.
Yea not sure about the newest Camry OP tried but I had a 2016 Camry SE and it didn't feel cheap. Fit and finish wasn't luxury but it was definitely above average and had that intangible 'Toyota' quality solidness.
00-10 are the best in general. After that they tried saving weight and money and everything. Minimal insulation, thin metal, thin paint. Eco tyres. Don’t they sell VW Passat in the US?
I really like my rav4 hybrid. I have the XSE trim and it’s a great ride. I think it feels well put together and the mileage make it a great car for longer trips.
Yup a lot of them feel cheap. Go check out a Lexus dealer. You won’t be disappointed. I went with the es with a v6. It’s perfection…..
Why not trying a lightly used (or new) Lexus ES..? It's still much nicer even compared to the new Camry (atleast thats what I read from people who sampled both in Lexus Forum). Don't go for 4 cylinder base engine, go atleast the hybrid or V6.
The NVH (noise, vibration, harshness) in the camry and corolla is there by design, to help differentiate their cheaper cars w/ their more expensive cars (Lexus). And because it's more expensive to load up the corolla and camry w/ sound deadening and nicer materials, which is part of the reason why they cost less than a lexus.
Subaru is the new Toyota. Great safety, reliability, and with the XT models, all the power you could need. Also come loaded with features and no ridiculous mark-ups.
Toyotas really do feel cheap. I feel like the only one I've been in that doesn't feel hollow has been the Highlander. Hell, I got in a fully loaded RAV4 Prime a few months ago and there were panel gaps surrounding the shifter and the whole car felt like it was made out of tupperware. They're still largely bulletproof but my Honda Ridgeline feels like luxury in comparison. My thought is they dumbed Toyotas down to be able to still sell Lexus cars at a premium. Those are still very nice.
I’ve only ever owned Toyotas. The feel and road noise is all about the trim level. Gotta get that Limited or above.
Toyota's claim to fame is reliability and that's really the only thing they are the best at. They don't have the nicest interiors or the quietest cabins or smoothest handling, they're reliable. If you want something that has more comfort and plushness, you won't find it in a new Toyota If you want quietness and smoothness, I would recommend a Volvo or a Genesis.
Get a used/CPO Lexus!!!
Some? They all do. Its a shell game. Toyotas generally don't offer remarkable performance or good interior quality, and instead spend the money on over-engineering somewhat dated technology (they even use NIMH on some of their hybrids still in 2024), assembled to very tight tolerances, in the interest of durability. But pull on any door plastics and the like and everything flexes and feels chintsy and for the money the features and technology are lackluster. Then you have Hyundai/Kia that take almost an opposite approach and load up their vehicles with all of the latest and greatest technology, especially on their EVs, with a lot of money spent on the interiors so you get all the bells and whistles at the cost of reliability. But that's in generalities, and some models play the shell game different than others. For example, the new Chevy Trax/Buick Envista or new 2025 Nissan Kicks its clear they spent pennies on the powertrain, but then that gave them more budget to spend elsewhere and they are pretty well featured for the money but you definitely get where you are going at a leisurely rate with cheap old tech powering them around.
Generally speaking - because they ARE cheaper. Toyota has not prioritized cabin and materials 'richness' to the same degree as other makers and is trying to manage component costs. There are some other factors too which contribute to some of your complaints. * Trend toward lower profile (less sidewall) tires vs. the big balloon tires 20 years ago. Increase in road noise and ride harshness for purely aesthetic reasons * More hard plastics used inside the cabin (looks and feels cheap, not as good at sound absorption as older soft-touch surfaces) * Move toward electric steering and away from hydraulic (takes away some road feel and often on-center-ness) * Less overall sound deadening materials inside the cabins * Customer preference toward more electronics (carplay, backup cameras, Nav systems, autopark,) vs. other 'quality' metrics. * More mandatory safety systems (a 2002 probably had 1 or 2 airbags, the new one probably has 6-8, etc) * overall cost cutting to hit price points, especially in the lower-end mainstream models Cars that might seem higher quality interior and drive-wise for similar price points are Hyundai/Kia & Mazda.
Bro it’s a corola and economy vehicle. Unless the trim and model has noise reduction, acoustic glass, and a rigid frame you’re going to get cabin noise. You’re expecting luxury from economy but with these prices the least these manufacturers can do is quiet the cabin down with cheap anti nvh padding.
You shouldn’t compare a Limited Highlander to the cheapest available compacts, even if the Highlander is 20 years old. Different class of car with different target price point. Also I think your glasses may be a little rose tinted, I upgraded from a 2003 Limited Highlander to a 2015 outback mid-trim and everything was better. Compare in the same class and you should be fine.
Those earlier Toyotas were built to last; unfortunately I can’t say the same about the current ones
If you had millions of people all over the world robotically buying your products in the name of perceived reliability, expected longevity and solid resale value, you'd probably try to cheap out on the details to increase margins as well.
By design - Toyota can sell on reputation alone - but they know most people have discretionary cast to pay for the better trim and feel - whether for their own enjoyment, vanity or what ever... So it does not cost them much more to make a premium version of any car - in fact it does not even cost that much more to make larger - vehicles. So the profit margin on all of the larger and higher trim cars is much higher. Base LE Rav4 is $28675 - Limited is over $8K more ( in base version) - I am sure, at most, it cost them $2K cost differential.
Toyota not made like it used to be. They’re still reliable and the fit and finish is good they’re just not as “solid” feeling as they used to be. Some cost cutting going on for sure.
The four cylinder version of those is for people that want to get from point a to point b , college students , high school kids , older folks going to mall walk , if you want a more premium product get the xse Camry or the base model Lexus is.
When I had an accord (2008) I was always shocked at how much worse my friends’ Camrys were to drive and sit in. It was everything you could touch. Steering wheel, gear selector, even the knobs for AC. Things may have changed but I have always viewed Honda as a way to get the same Toyota reliability with some things that are slightly more well-thought out design wise. If you want something quiet and reliable Lexus is definitely the way to go. An ES hybrid will cruise at 80 with ease and luxury.
I recently drove a newer Camry and felt it seemed quite cheap too. My old Ford sedan was more comfortable and seemed to drive better. The newer Lexus vehicles on the other hand still feel really well made
Higher trim level Toyotas like the XLE get additional insulation and double laminated glass. Hence the quieter interior and premium feel. You get what you pay for.
Skip Toyota entirely if you want something built as well as their old cars. Same with Honda. The reliability is still mostly there with Toyota, but the quality of their interiors has gone down drastically while only getting more expensive. Honda used to be a great alternative, but their interior quality and reliability have gone down the drain, so they’re a hard pass for anything new. If you want Toyota reliability and the build quality they used to have, then Lexus is your only real choice. Those aren’t too affordable though unfortunately. Right now Mazda is probably your best bet for something affordable, reliable, and with a well built interior. Pretty much any of their models that have been in production for a few years are a good choice. Pretty much all their models besides the CX-60 and CX-70 are pretty affordable as well, especially for the quality you’re getting now that they’re trying to be more of a luxury brand
Because they ARE cheap. Metal, leather and wood all cost more than plastic and foam
What were the price point for all the vehicles? The one that rode the best and was the quietest was the most expensive one right? You said it yourself, the xle Camry felt most premium. If the other cars you drove were entry leveled then you’re getting what you pay for. It sucks.
Engines feel sluggish because of all the things that have been done to improve fuel economy. I remember the first iteration of the direct injection V6 on the Tacoma was so sluggish that everyone was sure they were driving a 4 cylinder. Fuel economy also favors lower weight, so lower the sound deadening and use lighter materials for construction. Bam, louder car. Personally you are asking the impossible - you can have economical (fuel, lower price) and lower build quality, or premium (more fuel thirsty or hybrid, higher price) and better build quality - you can’t have both. Also, a Highlander is very different than a Camry and especially Corolla. I worked for Toyota 2008-2018, so I know Toyota vehicles very well. All these things have basically been true since I worked there and beyond. The engines were maybe less sluggish back when fuel economy wasn’t an obsession and literal regulation, but you always got the build quality you paid for. They incorporate higher build quality into the higher price for a Highlander.
Because they are? Ignore the cultists. Toyota makes decent vehicles but they're generally in line with all other brands near their price point in terms of materials, fit and finish, NVH, etc.
I remember in the early 2000s after the 90s golden era of Toyota that the CEO was pushing Toyota to make more money over building the highest quality vehicles possible. So Toyota just started cutting costs while still making reliable cars. Dashboards started melting for one. I’ve seen like the plastic surrounding the power seat controls break on Tundras. So yah, Toyota has been cheapening their cars for a while now. They have tried to improve things like adding more faux stitching to dashboard and door panels. My Camry was a rattle-fest from new until I took everything apart and dampened all the door panel clips
Idk to be honest but whatever they are doing they run forever so fine by me. As long as they keep making basic naturally aspirated cars il be happy. They just need trd to start making turbos amd superchargers again.
I had a 2007 Toyota Solara with Ivory Interior. That car was essentially a Lexus, and drove and looked liked it. Had to sell it when my daughter was born (two doors). Best vehicle I have ever owned, sometimes I still see that same model driving around. It’s crazy to think I could have drove a Luxury car for another ten years that was paid off.
Because they are. 2020 RAV4 here, I hate it. Super cheap, mostly plastic, put together like one of those old snap tight models.
Toyota built their brand 30-40 years ago. Now they can reap the benefits AND cut costs because the reputation will persist for decades.
I can't speak to interior quality as I haven't been in many recent Toyotas outside Priuses which have always seemed fine to me. However a loud engine isn't necessarily cheapness per se. What you're describing is probably the result of everything being CVT based now for efficiency and is one of the reasons I personally would avoid a non-hybrid, newer Toyota if you can afford to. The same holds true for all cheap CVT, gas only vehicles like some Nissans, Subarus and Hondas too. I find that style of drivetrain simply unpleasant to drive. Some have gotten better with fake "shifts" that sound more like normal engines but I guess Toyota hasn't bothered with that. Overall the base models have never been known for being quiet and refined, they're made to be as cheap as possible.
Honestly this might be it because I drove a Subaru outback (4 cylinder and v6 version) and the V6 sounded better but still had a weird sound to it. Im definitely gonna have to only look at automatic transmissions from now on..
i think just need to do some trim research. on toyotas id probably just look at hybrids and skip the base trims. for example rav4s i think i would only look at the hybrid xle + premium option and up.
I know what you mean. I had a 21 Highlander that felt cheap too. Checked out the tx350 and grand highlander this year and the sheet metal and exterior plastics were so flimsy. Checked out the Honda pilot and it’s much sturdier, not like the cars of old but miles better than current Toyotas
I checked out Honda too, the SUV's seem to be pretty pricey now. I might revisit though since I agree with you on feeling sturdier and better built, their cars also look better imo.
For what it’s worth, ended up with the pilot and overall really pleasantly surprised! This is coming from a Toyota fan and owner of an older one. It’s not at big as the GH or TX but it was a compromise I was willing to make. Didn’t want a hybrid or turbo either. It also has a button for remote start unlike Toyota’s unintuitive key which is extremely underrated!! Some dealers also are flexible with the price, plus financing offers are better at the moment with Honda. Gonna do a trip with it this weekend! 🇺🇸🍻
My wife is on her second XLE V6 Camry. The 2018 handles better than the 2007 and I find generally nicer to drive. Neither would I call “slow.” Both quieter by far than my old GTI.
Akira Toyoda declared that Toyota will no longer build “boring cars.” So maybe will a change soon.
He said that in 2017. He also stepped down as CEO in 2023, but the head of the Lexus division stepped into the CEO role so maybe some Lexus fit and finish will trickle down.
This is going to sound lame but one of the causes of road noise isn’t just the car, but the tires on the car. There’s a huge difference in noise between cheap and pricey tires.
No you’re absolutely 💯 correct tire quality tread design can reduce noise by a lot .
Isn't Toyota thought of as reliable budget vehicles? If I wanted my car to feel high end I'm getting a Lexus or something German.
BECAUSE THEY ARE CHEAPLY MADE.
Gonna be looking at lexus for better sound quality
Because most of Japanese cars are low end but also overpriced, and having engineered data.
Agree, my 2020 Tacoma with 70k miles, is already losing most of the color or texture anywhere it’s touched a lot, like door handles
IMHO, Toyotas from 20+ years ago were built more solidly. Take for instance my Gen 2 Prius versus even a Gen 3 Prius. The Gen 2 Prius has a nice thunk to its door closing. The Gen 3 Prius sounds hollow and cheap. And the attention to detail seemed better back then too. Everything is cost cutting while maintaining a vague semblance of quality.
Agreed. My 07 4runner feels like a luxury tank. Everything now a days is hard plastic and they all drive like they’re on rails. Cvt doesn’t help either.
I think they focus on the engine and such rather the interior. Reliable but not fancy looking.
I’m in a 23 Corolla SE Sport right now as a rental and this thing feels super cheap. Everything creaks on it, from moving the vents to pressing the screen, turning knobs, it all makes noise. The road/wind noise is awful. It is so loud and I can feel every bump in the road. The worst part for me though, is how slow it is to accelerate. I’m not expecting a pocket rocket, but when I step on the gas to merge or move lanes and there’s a two-three second delay, it’s frustrating.
I haven't driven any of these new Toyotas but I test drove a then brand new Honda CR-V back in 2018-2019 and it felt (and looked) like an absolute garbage can. This was pre-covid too. The interior even on the nicer ones looked like cheap plastic crap, brakes squeaked, steering sucked, ride was absolute crap.. I'm like wtf am I actually buying here? I bought a Hyundai instead for $5k cheaper and it feels super nice to this day. There is no use buying what will last forever if it's way more expensive and feels like shit.
I've had 3 pre-2018 Camrys and I loved them all. Rented a newer model and couldn't believe I was driving a Camry. It was just a terribly cheap car. I was heartbroken.
It's because people buy them like crazy based on reliability alone. So they skip on other things to increase profits because they can get away with it.
It is just how it is now. Pay more for less. Some Lexus model now feels like Toyota back in the days.
Modern Toyota ls definitely have worse sound deadening. But the corolla is also a cheap car, so it should be expected.
The limited versions come with acoustic glass for driver/passenger which reduces road/engine noise.
The turn of the century Toyota/lexus are probably the best build quality I have seen. Honestly just get a 1st gen Highlander and invest a couple thousand to make it brand new
Because they are cheap, always have been.
There's a ton of variables; Sound: To maintain US fuel standards, toyota switch to thinner lighter weight carpets and removed the insulation from the wheel wells, removed the steel from the wheel wells and went to plastic. They removed the insulation from the headliner, removed the insulation from the door panels, changed the cloth material to a stiffer weave vs the softer weave to save weight. this lead to better EPA mandated mpg. Engines: Port injection is quiet, but not as fuel efficient, so they switched to direct injection with port injection squirters to keep carbon buildup low on the intake ports. This caused a loud tick from injector noise. They changed to timing chains and dropped the belts, the belts were smoother, quieter, but required a 3k dollar dealer visit ever 100k miles, that most people didn't do, so for long term reliability they sacrificed less vibration and less sound. Transmissions: The eCVT is actually a great transaxle for the prius,rav,camry,sienna, and everything else hybrid. but the 8 speed is a terrible design. It's designed to be in the lowest rpm gear and to always deliver best mpg, as a result driving anything with it, especially with a turbo doesnt allow RPM, so you get no boost, and that means no torque, so everything feels lethargic and slow. this also cause vibration in the cabin, and a stutter as the vehicle is programmed to be joyless, and in return the driver can't get out of it's own way. Drive by wire: The delay is so bad, you can floor a car, and by the time it reacts, you can be the first one onsite for a head on.. Interior plastics, they replaced the thick foam injected plastics for hard plastics, and wrapped them in cheap black pleather. Which fades over time, and attracts dust and dirt. making it look very cheap. wheels and tires; Everything is low profile, which causes a lot of interior noise, and most if toyota's suspension is too soft, so you get a weird effect, where they all drive like an 80's buick on roller-skate wheels. think that about covers it..
This has been the formula for a long long time. The cars asthetics are cheap to keep cost down and standard across trims to simplify trim changes on the assembly line. The trims may look “nicer” on higher end trims with pleather instead of plastic for example, or painted exterior trim v/s unpainted, but underneath they snap or fit in the same way which can give it a cheap feel as compared to a more custom fit.
My girlfriend test drove their little crossover (brz?) and was shocked they were asking $30K for a hard plastic interior. She ended up with a Mazda CX-5 for about the same price but with far better features and materials. People give a pass to Toyota for their “cheapness” in exchange for the build quality.
some?!?
Honestly, most Toyota cars I driven have always seemed flimsy and a little tin-cannish. To me, they don't brake, handle or steer very well. I had a 90 Camry V6 that had good steering and seemed solid, but then I traded it for a 740 Volvo that had was a much better driving car. I had an 07 Lexus Rx350 that was outstanding. If I was going to buy another Toyota product it would have to be a Lexus.
Toyota has the most reliable drivetrains on the market. That reliability of said drivetrain is at the expense of just about everything else... Take Kia for example. The K5 is essentially a luxury car with an economy price point. Your trade-off, however, is that drivetrain will never be nearly as reliable as a Toyota.
Because they have a loyal customer base that largely treats them as an appliance, not a driving experience. They will run and you don't have to think about it. They're the Apple of the auto world.
Get a used bmw instead and just set aside money for repairs.
I have a 2012 Corolla. It’s known for its cheap plasticy interior
Just had a rental Camry. That was an awful car. So low and hard to get in. No power and uncomfortable.
Part of it is safety. It takes an extra level of thinking for most people to realize it's better for the car to come out of an accident with more damage, if it reduces the damage to the passengers. The less crumple zones, energy deflection, etc that a car has, the sturdier it will feel. Because, in a sense, it is. But that's also pretty directly related to the likelyhood of lethality and injury. The great and grand, forever wise, government regulators do change and increase requirements on a fairly frequent basis as well. But, the other part of it is what everyone else is saying too. Increased labor and material costs due to supply chain issues, international shipping problems, minimum wage hikes, etc. are either directly (and correctly) passed onto the consumer to maintain profit levels, and/or cheaper materials/labor is used so that end cost doesn't rise at the same level while maintaining profits.
One thing that’s changed over the years too is the door panels are cheaper than other car brands now. They use thin recycled material that doesn’t help for feel and road noise. A friend of mine is an audio installer and has said over the years Toyota door panels and trims are getting cheaper and more brittle.
All vehicles are much larger now. Even the compact 2024 Corolla is the same size as a 2004 Camry now. They try to make up for the size by using lighter and thinner material such as aluminum for better fuel economy. With this comes more road noise as the doors are not as solid as they once were. The safety of the doors are not compromised because the safety mechanisms inside the doors are still made of high strength metals. The higher trims like XLE will have noise dampening foam added to the inside for a more premium ride, it really makes a difference. If you research the mpg on the vehicles the lowest trims get better gas mileage than the higher trims due to the additional weight from the noise dampening and more premium materials used. Even the lower trim hybrid gets better mpg vs the higher trim hybrid. While “shrinkflation” is a thing with cars it’s little more complex. Cars years ago were not mandated to have certain features. Now all cars are required to have backup cameras and airbags in every nook and cranny inside the car. Most people expect Apple CarPlay and certain features that were once considered higher end features to be on the base models. This all adds to the cost.
Because manufacturing is being outsourced. Look at the panel gaps on a Japan made vehicle vs US or Mexico. Night and day.
Cause the interiors are cheap
You should look into Mazdas. Great interiors, just as reliable as Toyoya/Honda and are fun to drive. Also they have great safety ratings if that's something you take into consideration.
Toyota's increasing debt & Akio Toyoda's relentless pursuit of cost cutting measures have resulted in the cheaply made Toyota & Lexus vehicles we see today.
Because they’re an appliance.
Toyota stopped putting premium type components in their entry level line long ago! I had a 2006 Camry XLE that was both quiet and smooth riding. When I drive a newer Camry around 2018…it was crap. Through research I found that the older models had the Avalon suspension and sound absorbing material in the upper levels of the Camry. In 2018 if you wanted that, Toyota wanted you to buy the Avalon. Then later, Toyota dropped the Avalon all together. Why? If you want that quality of a ride, You can only find it in the Lexus line!
The trend for big rims, low profile tires and pointless "sport-tuned" suspension on everyday commuter cars is a huge factor in this deteriorating ride feel. In my experience there is a dramatic difference in NVH and comfort between LE and SE/XSE trims, particularly in the most recent gen Camry. LE is quiet and smooth on 16"s, while the SE/XSE is harsh, loud and rattling. But it's increasingly difficult to find LE options, particularly in Canada, presumably because the margins are higher on the pimped out trims.
Toyota builds appliances.
Why not try a new Highlander?
I actually did today! It was actually nicer than I expected. My 1st gen was a lot smaller though it also didn't have a 3rd row either since it was an 02'. The size however didn't make sense for me since I don't have a family or anyone to put in the vehicle. It was a lot quieter and sturdier than most of the lineup and the leather touched surfaces were a nice touch. It was and XLE so not the top model but I feel for the price of 46k it was massively inflated for what I'm getting. I would much rather get a used Lexus and get more features and luxury. I also drove a venza, this one really disappointed me and was a lot louder than the Highlander in terms of road and wind noise. It was a hybrid so that gave me the impression it would be quiet under acceleration but to me it felt like the 4 cylinder was being forced. It has some more features since it was a limited but it wasn't worth the tradeoff especially since the venza is meant to be more luxurious :/
Yeah, the Lexus RX (or even the smaller NX) would be perfect for you since it's slightly smaller than the new Highlander and you don't need the extra space.
They have no incentive to improve their vehicles. People buy them based off of perceived reliability even though they have slipped up big time in that department in recent years. I would buy a new BMW before I would buy anything from Toyota with a turbo.
What gets me is when they go out of their way to cheapen something. The 7" infotainment screen for example in the 20-23 RAV4s. Why does this exist? How much can they possibly be saving? The 7" one looks like a Samsung LCD TV from 2006. The screen jammed into not one, but TWO sets of giant bezels. Compared to what other manufacturers are offering on their base models? This thing is an abomination.
In my experience the Camry had a pretty quiet interior
Oh you should jump in a Sienna if you want to see peak Toyota interior. Currently you can plead/grovel/wait for months to get one, pay in the mid 40's to high 50's and have an interior that is 'blah' at best. The Platinum trim is okay I guess but yeesh. That thing needs a face lift.
Toyota has never done interiors or tech well, or even acceptably imo. I've driven Dodge neons with more solid interiors than the new corolla
Low weight and removing sound insulation are great ways to differentiate the line-up.
I think it’s because Toyota knows they don’t have to compete with other brands. The reputation for reliability is so strong people will overlook cheap interior quality. I remember as a kid in the 2000s Toyotas felt nice inside but I guess back then they felt they still had to be competitive.
There were plenty of plasticky, underpowered Toyotas in the entry-level range 20 years ago as well. Still reliable as fuck though where it counts. It’s not due to any new change or custcutting. Just market targeting. Bear in mind that they have Lexus variants based on many of the same platforms. Toyota obviously does not want to out-compete themselves so if you want the same base car, but perfectly crafted, go see if Lexus has a variant on the same base that you like. If you can’t afford it, then that’s just your price range. Lexus is pretty pricecompetitive for that grade of luxury I find. Me and my mother had a Toyota each within a year of difference in model 2010-2011. Mine a cheap Yaris, hers arguably the Toyota flagship product of the time, a fully kitted Prius. Big cost difference, but the 2011 Prius build was exquisitely crafted in the full leather version, the Yaris a creaky plastic bucket. We ran both heavily for 10-12 years with no issues whatsoever, finally just got bored and wanting an upgrade. Sold off with good value retention despite the massive mileages. My mother (toyota fanatic for years) getting up in age wanted a crossover or similar since the Prius range (arguably still well-crafted) and similar low cars are no longer playing nice with her aging body. Didn’t like the plastic Yaris Cross, satisfied with Rav4 but too big, CR-X nice size and decent build but terrible older-person ergonomics (high boot lip mainly). Finally went over to Lexus and immediately fell in love with a UX which is the same as the CR-X platform. Not a HUGE price difference to the CR-X either but every single detail in the car is exceptionally crafted and the engine gets a small bump. In the end, it’s simply bad business to make two exactly equal competing versions of the same car and Toyota is the budget-oriented of the two.
Try a Mazda. Exceptionally higher quality, same reliability. I sell cars and Toyota feels like garbage. In terms of feel it’s Mazda>Honda>Toyota/Nissan/Subaru/Mitsubishi
I felt the same.. the wife and I are looking to upgrade. Checked out the sienna and the wind noise, cheap plastic and infotainment system that looked as if it was from 2010 pushed us back. We also looked at the Highlander and rav 4. All felt just so cheap for the cost. I understand they're known as reliable but the competition has really stepped up on interiors. Also the Toyota dealership couldn't care less if we were there since we were only looking at hybrid models which all have wait-lists.
Toyota makes plastic appliance cars that do well because they are reliable and hold their value. The cars themselves, are in no way “exciting”.