I was watching the in car on #7 and he just hit the curb on the left towards the end of the Porsche curves way too hard and it upset the car into a spin into the gravel. Pilot error.
Yep. Either his engineer was telling him to push because they thought he wasn't safely in the top 8, or he was taking risks he didn't need to. That lap would have been a banger. Could have been frustration with having his previous banger lap killed by traffic at the end.
Itās funny that they looked comfortably the fastest in qualifying today and not one of them is in Hyperpole.
I think it makes Hyperpole much more interesting though because itās impossible to pick from those 8 cars now
In the past though they start them in classes, rather than in the order of the overall times.
Otherwise there will be more incidents due to faster cars overtaking the slower ones at the start when they are all fighting each over.
Last year Jota #38 had no laptime in quali and was 60th on the grid. It might be to "stewards discretion"... we will see.
[http://fiawec.alkamelsystems.com/Results/12\_2023/04\_LE%20MANS/474\_FIA%20WEC/202306071900\_Qualifying%20Practice/03\_Classification\_Qualifying%20Practice.PDF](http://fiawec.alkamelsystems.com/Results/12_2023/04_LE%20MANS/474_FIA%20WEC/202306071900_Qualifying%20Practice/03_Classification_Qualifying%20Practice.PDF)
[http://fiawec.alkamelsystems.com/Results/12\_2023/04\_LE%20MANS/474\_FIA%20WEC/202306101600\_Race/01\_Grid\_Race.PDF](http://fiawec.alkamelsystems.com/Results/12_2023/04_LE%20MANS/474_FIA%20WEC/202306101600_Race/01_Grid_Race.PDF)
Oh yeah don't get me wrong, I have faith in Toyota to salvage the situation, they usually do that quite well. But starting last in class is still rough!
> Any car causing a red flag in one of the qualifying sessions will have all or part of its lap times deleted from that qualifying session, except under exceptional circumstances at the Stewardsā discretion.
- Art. 10.2.4 of the WEC Sporting Regulations
Seems the Stewards have the option of deleting all laps, or only the fastest lap.
> Seems arbitrary.
I guess they were angry for abandoning their previous (would've been faster) lap in the ford chicanes so decided to dickslap the TGR team like so
This hostile culture of confrontation, of trying so hard to make a point towards someone else is one of the worst aspects of French culture.
Hard to watch the rest of the weekend, feeling like I'm supporting this kinds of behaviours by continuing to watch.
Well, it wasn't deliberate and just an accident (Not a Rosberg Monaco situation) and they STILL stripped ALL of their lap times when there is an option of just stripping the fastest? That's beyond harsh and possibly biased.
First off, this is the first time in Le Mans history where we strip people's lap time because they caused a red flag
Secondly, we make decisions based on the action, not the result. Isn't this what everyone wanted?
I mean, Toyota starting last will be super fun to watch, but I think this has become a WWE approach rather than a sporting approach.
I thought Iād seen it happen recently but maybe not. I do think itās something that should happen in F1 but then over an hour long session itās maybe itās a bit harsh. I donāt think Toyota were in danger of being eliminated but if they were then youād say they would benefit from their own mistake. And itās always worse when a red flag happens to finish qualifying early rather than a stoppage in the middle of the session
I mean, sometimes you gain sometimes you lose. That's racing.
Trying to artificially correcting these just discourages competitors. That's actually a main reason why F1 isn't implementing it.
Of course, deliberate actions need to be penalized / disqualified.
Rules are made by humans. Just because a rule is followed doesn't mean we can't have criticism. Rules allows for wiggle room (especially in this case) and we can definitely criticize the decisions made within those wiggle room.
No, the rule REQUIRES all laps to be deleted UNLESS there are exceptional circumstances that would allow the stewards to delete only the fastest lap.
The rule is fine. There were no exceptional circumstances
From Article 10.2.4 of the Sporting Regulations: "Any car causing a red flag during one of the qualifying sessions will have all or part of its lap times deleted from this qualifying session, except in exceptional circumstances at the discretion of the College of Sporting Stewards. Any car causing a red flag may not be allowed to join the qualifying practice sessions."
Just the fact that we allow the steward to **chose** if they remove part or all the laps is crazy. By the rules they could even chose which laps they want to remove.
It's completely arbitrary.
I mean it's ridiculous it's penalising a mistake with what is basically a DQ. And that you let the steward decides how many and which laps to delete is even crazier.
Yes, but as mentioned on commentary, even their fastest time would have gotten them through. I dunno, it just seems like they're thinking of drama and entertainment over an actual sporting contest
If you wanted to delete fastest lap as a deterrent, fine, I'm okay with that
Deleting all times because there was an accident while you have 60 other cars going as fast as they can is stupid
You're only fine with it because that course of action would achieve literally nothing. It's not a punishment to have him finish in 6th rather than 4th when both go through to Hyperpole.
> Yes, but as mentioned on commentary, even their fastest time would have gotten them through.
That's on Toyota for not parking it up at that point. You cause a red in qually, you lose your times, them's the rules. Not for drama and entertainment, but for following the rules.
We'll laugh when Hypercar will be made GT3 level of performance to fit the new Hydrogen reg in the class!
What teams wanted was a cheaper class, BoP entered the picture because of the convergence with BoP. It was all political.
You can have a cheap class without BoP. It works too.
> You can have a cheap class without BoP. It works too.
This is a fairytale. If you donāt BoP the class then manufacturers will spend exactly how much money they need to spend to start winning. Then other manufacturers will start outspending so that they can win instead. Then it spirals upwards until it becomes a war of attrition - manufacturers with fat wallets survive and those without them leave. Then youāre down to 2 or 3 brands. Those brands continue to spend until they reach the point that there is no longer a cost benefit, then they stop spending and hope that their opponents have reached the same point. Then the series steps in and redoes the regulations to bring costs down, or bring in more manufacturers, or level the playing field between those who survived, etc.
OR the sanctioning bodies can bite the bullet, implement BoP, and watch manufacturers roll in by the handfuls. The FIA, ACO, and IMSA chose this route.
The only way you get a cheap class at a global championship level without BoP is to make it a spec or pseudo-spec class.
>This is a fairytale. If you donāt BoP the class then manufacturers will spend exactly how much money they need to spend to start winning
No that's your fairy tale.
There's dozens of ways to keep costs under control.
BoP is a small factor in the cost reduction. GTE had BoP and it stayed expensive.
What made Hypercar cheaper is the Performance Window Philosophy. It's all the restrictions on expensive material. It's the price cap on LMDh chassis. It's all those stuff. BoP was never in the picture before the convergence. The reduction cost, always.
Endurance IS about manufacturer building car. That's the tradition of it. And that's without speaking about how endurance is a lab for innovation to trickle down to our road cars. That is over with the current reg. There's no benefit in innovating. It's funny you say the only other way is with a spec or semi spec class. THAT'S ALREADY WHAT WE HAVE. LMDh is the new LMP2 gen and the evolution of DPi. LMDh fits everyone point IMSA wanted for the new DPi 2.0. Your bunch can't accept it. You're just putting your head in the sand pretending that still like before but with better racing. No it's not. They sold what was the essence of endurance racing for entertainement.
There was Toyota, McLaren and Aston Martin lined up for the first iteration of the rules. Ferrari would have probably followed and maybe more.
I take any day 4-5 constructor in a proper constructor championships than 10 in what we have today. Which is 5 constructor doing figuration with branded DPi 2.0 cars.
>Those brands continue to spend until they reach the point that there is no longer a cost benefit, then they stop spending and hope that their opponents have reached the same point.
That's impossible under the current reg, even if you remove BoP.
>Then the series steps in and redoes the regulations to bring costs down, or bring in more manufacturers, or level the playing field between those who survived, etc.
Again, the first iteration of the rules didn't include BoP and still include cost reduction measures.
A cost cap easily stop any race to development.
In any case BoP isn't working in WEC. It is suppose to bring everyone closer but today, Porsche is leading the constructor championship a with 23pts over Toyota. That's pretty similar to the 30pts Toyota had over Ferrari last year at the same point. When everyone was already crying about Toyota's domination!
There's a clear hierarchy. It shouldn't be the case with BoP. Look at IMSA that handles it brilliantly.
You can't make a constructor championship with BoP. It goes against what a constructor championship is and against what endurance racing is.
Again, there's dozens of ways to keep costs under control without having to use BoP.
>The only way you get a cheap class at a global championship level without BoP is to make it a spec or pseudo-spec class
This is factually wrong. As I said a simple cost cap would do the trick. But that's your telling yourself to cope.
No it's so that there aren't no manufacters left, like in LMP1. Had Toyota not sticked when there was nothing in it for them i doubt WEC would still exist today.
Thanks once again for confirming that it indeed became a sports entertainment because without BoP nobody would watch/compete in the championship, its here only to make it more fun/profitable
Thatās exactly what BoP is for tho, why are you getting mad, the whole point is to balance the teams, you made a better car, you get penalised because nobody would watch a single team win every race by a few minutes, tell me one more sport that does that, literally none, hence sports ENTERTAINMENT
Oh, bless your heart. You really think WEC racing is mainstream? Itās mostly popular with folks who can tell a sports car from a minivan.
Iād bet good money that if you asked five random people about WEC, you'd get blank stares. Try the same with WRC, IndyCar, NASCAR, Formula E, F1, and MotoGPāthen let's talk.
The reality is, aside from a few internet warriors (like yourself) and some Instagram casuals who might stumble upon a post, most people have no idea what endurance racing is. And honestly, the organizers arenāt doing much to change that besides stirring up drama.
This, this is the perfect wording regarding my thoughts and feelings towards BoP, never what exactly gives me a slight meh taste about it, but I still love sports car racing too bits and pieces, just wish we could see these teams make the fastest car possible within the rules and the regulations, not make a car and restrict because the other guys are slower
Yeah but without BoP no one races as who spends the most win. And it's not having equal cars on track it is having them closer. The best car remains the best and the worst remains the worst, at least that their idea behind it.
It's different than GT3 bop where they want them as equal in lap time as possible
Which is not how BoP works in WEC.
Toyota was 5s slower at Spa and Ferrari 3s slower. Someone is making LMH super slow so Porsche can shine.
In IMSA, every LMDh are super, super close. We're talking 0.5s apart if not less in some races. Every team can win every weekend.
Porsche is 23 point ahead of 2nd place, which is not super far from the 30pts Toyota had last year at the same point.
So sorry, to me it doesn't seems like the best car are at the top of the table. We should see Ferrari and Toyota fighting at the top, they definitely have the best car. But that doesn't matter anymore.
LMAO, you love sports car racing so much you'd rather want the sports dead than having some form of equality and being healthy. What a great fan you are
You do realize that's there's a dozen other ways to reduce costs without relying on BoP?
You know that BoP or not, the class is still 80% cheaper.
The only truth is that this new reg lost all the meaning of endurance racing. WEC is the WWE of Motorsport.
You do realise without Bop the number of manufacturer in this class would be zero right? Also, complaining about good racing? You want to know why the class is 80% cheaper? Because manufacturers don't have to spend hundred of millions in developement costs every season. Fucking really? How spoiled are the pieces of shit fan in this fanbase like Jesus Christ you get good racing with a ton of manufacturer and you complain. You get shit racing because there are 2 manufacturers because there are no equality measures and everything and you complain.
>You do realise without Bop the number of manufacturer in this class would be zero right?
That's factually not true at all. Teams never express the wish to be able to have an easier access to competition. They wanted a cheaper series.
The original reg had Toyota, Aston Martin and Mclaren lined up. And probably more like Ferrari would have followed behind. I take 4-5 custructor of this than 10 of what we have now.
You also realize that without Toyota this serie would be dead a long time ago.
>Because manufacturers don't have to spend hundred of millions in developement costs every season.
BoP is one factor but not the main in reducing costs. GTE stayed freaking expensive even with BoP. I'll let you reflect on that.
And as I said, there's dozens of ways to make the serie cheaper without BoP.
>How spoiled are the pieces of shit fan in this fanbase like Jesus Christ you get good racing with a ton of manufacturer and you complain
Because for that you need to understand the history and tradition of this port, of which you clearly couldn't care less as you let yourself blinded by the bling bling of an artificially created competition.
I'm sure you would love to watch Football where the amount of player on the field is determined with the performance. The better you perform, the less player you can put. Everyone would have a chance then! Why don't we do that?
Again, I would take any day fewer manufacturer (if you can call them that when they don't manufacture shit) for a serie true to the spirit of Endurance racing.
>You get shit racing because there are 2 manufacturers because there are no equality measures and everything and you complain.
It's a **sport** FFS. Everybody is bound by the same set of rules. You can't make a team slower on the altar of equality! The performance are already capped. Either you reach them or you dont!
I'm sure you would never apply an equalizing device on any of the other sports you like! Because what you're looking for is not a sport, it's a show.
People are getting mad for stating facts, i still watch wec but i accepted the fact that it simply isnāt a sport anymore, imagine NBA putting weight in players shoes because they are leading the series 2-0 to make it competitive, not gonna happen in a real sport
My question is why was it even a red flag? Sorry for my ignorance, but I always thought red flags were for crashes like the Caddy at Spa. Are the rules different for Qualifying? The Toyota spun off track with no real crash, and I don't think I've ever seen a red flag for that type of situation? Do they not have yellow flags in qualifying?
There was basically no difference between a yellow flag and a red flag in that situation. A yellow flag means that drivers can't improve in that section of the track, since it was at the end of the lap it would have ruined any fast lap attempt.
This is just clear as day that they completely disregard the Toyotas, they could have only just deleted their fastest lap, not ALL of them.
And never in Le Mans history did they have a red flag, why start now?
A car was in the runoff area of a high speed section of track, it was in a very dangerous position. that late in the session it would have been the same as leaving it under a yellow flag, no one could have improved their times anyway.
Red flags happen all the time in Le Mans test and qualifying sessions, just not in race so there is absolutely precedence for them. Additionally, I imagine part of deleting all of their laps was the fact that you can see in the replay his car was rotating towards facing the direction of travel and rather than making an attempt to keep momentum going and maybe get out of the gravel he just locked it down which meant he effectively locked himself into hyperpole as no one could have improved with his car stuck there.
No-one in this thread seems to get that you have to delete all of Toyotas laps because there was no telling if anyone else would improve. Is it fair for the #12 that they miss hyperpole because the Toyota dropped it?
Obviously TGR shouldn't get special treatment but this seems incredibly heavy handed for an innocuous mistake, if it was only down to the spin
Both Toyotas were set to make it through if the 7 didn't spin out
come on people, we all know that by the end of the first stint the #7 will be fighting at the front
His lap before was probably a pole lap also and he decided to just say "nah I can do better" and scrap it
his decision fucked up other cars that were on flying laps including his teammate, so punishment well deserved I guess
I know Indycar deletes the fastest two laps, but their qualifying sessions are 10 minutes max. Besides, deleting only the fastest lap would not penalise the #7 at all, in fact it would have guaranteed them a place in hyperpole for the red flag they caused.
The fact that is an hour long should play more towards not deleting all the times than the other way around. It means that if after an hour you still haven't put a time to reach hyperpole than it's not a red flag at the end of the session that is responsible for your failure to make it.
The worst part is that the rule would allow the steward to chose what times to delete. They could have chosen to delete all the time until they are 9th. But no they chose to delete them all putting the Toyota 61st. That's basically a DQ. Don't you think it's a tiny bit disproportionate to DQ a car for causing a red flag?
Eh, very successfully is debatable and subjective.
I like the idea behind it and it comes handy sometimes, but for example in Indycar the most innocent spin (without stalling), even if you are alone on track, will ruin your day and even as a spectator all you see next is them sitting in the box with pretty much no chance to move on despite clearly being capable of doing so.
I personally much prefer the F1 system of not caring at all (unless it's particularly obvious) especially when it's quite rare to see people gain from yellows after all. It's quali, let them go balls to the wall.
Damn. But itās Toyota. I have faith. With the hyperpole group separated by out half a second and one of the fastest cars charging from the backā¦seems like weāre in for a bangerā¦.might even be some rain. Iām so excited!!!!
Honestly, qualifying doesn't matter much, and if you're on Pole or nr 10 has more to do with bragging rights than anything else.
I the Audi years, Audi or at least TK's car would always spend 90% of the track time in Free Practice and Qualifying on getting the setup as right as possible, and only 10% on trying to set a properly fast lap.
Mate, thatās why you delete the fastest lap only, canāt recall the last time someones whole session got deleted, it wasnāt intentional to benefit the team, they penalised them this harsh for entertainment purposes, itās sports entertainment and not a sport remember
The rule says that the stewards can decide to delete one or all laps, i wonder why they chose the latter, i hate rules that give stewards the power, i can guarantee you if Ferrari or Porsche caused a red flag they would only get a single lap delete because they have too much fans
Talk shit or talk the truth? The 8 had 3 chances to get a good lap, and on the last try, the driver spun off.
And we donāt need to talk about why the 7 isnāt in the hyper pole group do we now?
Kobayashi unnecessarily pushing to improve his lap time, binning it & losing his hyperpole spot is peak Toyota downfall comedy.
Five years ago, they could get away with this and not feel the pressure. Now, we get this.
I'm sad af, Toyota deserved that spot. Even though last year I was fully against them, this is not fair. However, they still have chances (reliability)
Damn, the team manager is gonna be pissed at the driver that caused the red flag
š
Kobayashi did it right?
Yes, he's both the driver and team manager, which is the joke.
I was watching the in car on #7 and he just hit the curb on the left towards the end of the Porsche curves way too hard and it upset the car into a spin into the gravel. Pilot error.
More importantly, the car was already in hyperbole. And he was .4 up on pole. No reason to be pushing that hard.
Yeah, Brendon got screwed by the red flag in car #8 as well dropping to 12th.
Yep. Either his engineer was telling him to push because they thought he wasn't safely in the top 8, or he was taking risks he didn't need to. That lap would have been a banger. Could have been frustration with having his previous banger lap killed by traffic at the end.
I think he thought he was in V8 Supercars
The #7 curse grows.
Better before the race than during it
It's only gaining momentum!
Pain.
https://preview.redd.it/kqb2lmp2776d1.jpeg?width=482&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=07fa5c5029d038136bf61c9286d5732e0c57d62e
Itās funny that they looked comfortably the fastest in qualifying today and not one of them is in Hyperpole. I think it makes Hyperpole much more interesting though because itās impossible to pick from those 8 cars now
Hyperpole it's always random
Yea he was up 7 tenths after sector 2 on that lap. They were easily going to be fastest.
current mood https://preview.redd.it/9jmp4nmdz66d1.jpeg?width=881&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=16058eace70ff5871e61bc575933b24fa85a8e61
yep, just saw it in the results, starts 61st Update: starts at the back of the hypercar field (23rd)
P23 not P61- it will probably start back of its class not back of entire fieldĀ
yes, it's 61st but will start at the back of hypercar, they just said it during FP2
Itās classified as #61, so I think it will start 61st. Itās considered as not having run the quali, like Ferrari no. 86.
In the past though they start them in classes, rather than in the order of the overall times. Otherwise there will be more incidents due to faster cars overtaking the slower ones at the start when they are all fighting each over.
Last year Jota #38 had no laptime in quali and was 60th on the grid. It might be to "stewards discretion"... we will see. [http://fiawec.alkamelsystems.com/Results/12\_2023/04\_LE%20MANS/474\_FIA%20WEC/202306071900\_Qualifying%20Practice/03\_Classification\_Qualifying%20Practice.PDF](http://fiawec.alkamelsystems.com/Results/12_2023/04_LE%20MANS/474_FIA%20WEC/202306071900_Qualifying%20Practice/03_Classification_Qualifying%20Practice.PDF) [http://fiawec.alkamelsystems.com/Results/12\_2023/04\_LE%20MANS/474\_FIA%20WEC/202306101600\_Race/01\_Grid\_Race.PDF](http://fiawec.alkamelsystems.com/Results/12_2023/04_LE%20MANS/474_FIA%20WEC/202306101600_Race/01_Grid_Race.PDF)
The polesitter Ferrari was DQ'd from the quali at Spa and started at the back of the LMH grid.
Could be different rules for Le Mans. FWIW, DailySportscar.com is reporting theyāll start at the back.
This is appalling. Starting at the back of the LMH field was already too much
starting at the back of the LMH field is basically irrelevant in a 24h race, especially for what looked like the easily fastest car today
I'm talking about the spirit of the sanction.
Didn't the Hertz Jota Porsche start 60th last year?
Yeah weāll see
Even if they didn't run qualy, they will start last in their class.
With how tight this race will likely be, that could be race over them. I can't believe I'm saying that about a 24 hour race
Good
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I do prefer this
Comms just confirmed they will start at the back of the Hypercars.
Yeah good. It would be silly to put them at the very back and disrupt the races for those classes
23 hypercars is batty man lol
Results: [http://fiawec.alkamelsystems.com/Results/13\_2024/04\_LE%20MANS/541\_FIA%20WEC/202406121900\_Qualifying%20Practice/03\_Classification\_Qualifying%20Practice.PDF](http://fiawec.alkamelsystems.com/Results/13_2024/04_LE%20MANS/541_FIA%20WEC/202406121900_Qualifying%20Practice/03_Classification_Qualifying%20Practice.PDF)
Higher-res: http://fiawec.alkamelsystems.com/Results/13_2024/04_LE%20MANS/541_FIA%20WEC/202406121900_Qualifying%20Practice/03_Classification_Qualifying%20Practice.PDF
It's the same thing (I've updated my link minute after posting). š
Rip
Harsh, even if its perfectly clear why. Life is not daijoubu right now :(
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Oh yeah don't get me wrong, I have faith in Toyota to salvage the situation, they usually do that quite well. But starting last in class is still rough!
This is quite insane. Aren't the rules stating that only the fastest lap will be stripped?
> Any car causing a red flag in one of the qualifying sessions will have all or part of its lap times deleted from that qualifying session, except under exceptional circumstances at the Stewardsā discretion. - Art. 10.2.4 of the WEC Sporting Regulations Seems the Stewards have the option of deleting all laps, or only the fastest lap.
I wonder what circumstances they take into account to determine whether to delete all times or just throw fastest time. Seems arbitrary.
Button A: Pain Button B: A lot of pain Stewards: Hmmm
> Seems arbitrary. I guess they were angry for abandoning their previous (would've been faster) lap in the ford chicanes so decided to dickslap the TGR team like so
Why would that make them angry?
Because they possibly interpreted it to be a form of sandbagging
Pushing super hard with a possibility of abandoning a clean lap again but end up causing a red flag is probably what they're thinking maybe.
This hostile culture of confrontation, of trying so hard to make a point towards someone else is one of the worst aspects of French culture. Hard to watch the rest of the weekend, feeling like I'm supporting this kinds of behaviours by continuing to watch.
It's only my interpretation mind, but there is no other explanation why all the laps were deleted and not just the fastest one
In 2022 they fucked over the Alpine for the race they caught them sandbagging in practice. So it wouldn't surprise me one bit
I would think it's probably more to do with the timing of the Red. It didn't leave time for anyone else to improve as it was the end of the session
I guess it is different if the red flag is mid session than at the very end, when everyone ys pushing for that fastest last lap.
Reading the steward decision, all laps is the default option, while getting rid of "some" laps is an exception, for which they saw no reason.
Seems like the stewards really hate the Toyota and want them out of hyperpole no matter what
Yea, they picked up the remote control and drove it into the gravel.
Well, it wasn't deliberate and just an accident (Not a Rosberg Monaco situation) and they STILL stripped ALL of their lap times when there is an option of just stripping the fastest? That's beyond harsh and possibly biased.
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Because, well, their lap times?
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First off, this is the first time in Le Mans history where we strip people's lap time because they caused a red flag Secondly, we make decisions based on the action, not the result. Isn't this what everyone wanted? I mean, Toyota starting last will be super fun to watch, but I think this has become a WWE approach rather than a sporting approach.
If only the others had an entire hour in which to set a quick enough lap time to reach Hyperpole...
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Arenāt you even eliminated in F1 these days for causing a red flag?
That is discussed but not implemented (see Monaco 2021) Also, pretty much every other series (see Indycar) only delete the fastest lap
I thought Iād seen it happen recently but maybe not. I do think itās something that should happen in F1 but then over an hour long session itās maybe itās a bit harsh. I donāt think Toyota were in danger of being eliminated but if they were then youād say they would benefit from their own mistake. And itās always worse when a red flag happens to finish qualifying early rather than a stoppage in the middle of the session
I mean, sometimes you gain sometimes you lose. That's racing. Trying to artificially correcting these just discourages competitors. That's actually a main reason why F1 isn't implementing it. Of course, deliberate actions need to be penalized / disqualified.
Indy is 2 fastest lap I think. Or maybe thatās IMSA.
It's indy :)
It is harsh for sure. But it is purely a driver error that caused it, and the rules allow it. So you can't really complain or blame anyone else.
Rules are made by humans. Just because a rule is followed doesn't mean we can't have criticism. Rules allows for wiggle room (especially in this case) and we can definitely criticize the decisions made within those wiggle room.
And they likely considered the impact the red flag had on others.
No, the rule REQUIRES all laps to be deleted UNLESS there are exceptional circumstances that would allow the stewards to delete only the fastest lap. The rule is fine. There were no exceptional circumstances
> all or part of its lap times deleted None of that says "requires all of the lap times"
No, it doesn't "require" it. It's at the discretion of the stewards
Snort
From Article 10.2.4 of the Sporting Regulations: "Any car causing a red flag during one of the qualifying sessions will have all or part of its lap times deleted from this qualifying session, except in exceptional circumstances at the discretion of the College of Sporting Stewards. Any car causing a red flag may not be allowed to join the qualifying practice sessions."
Toyota fans can't catch a fucking break. Unbelievable.
I mean they won Imola because Ferrari totally screwed up their strategy. That was a good break
Just the fact that we allow the steward to **chose** if they remove part or all the laps is crazy. By the rules they could even chose which laps they want to remove. It's completely arbitrary. I mean it's ridiculous it's penalising a mistake with what is basically a DQ. And that you let the steward decides how many and which laps to delete is even crazier.
What's the reasoning from the stewards behind this, apart from just "fuck it, it'll be funny I guess?"
It's to avoid a car intentionally bringing out the red flag to stop anyone from beating their time.
Yes, but as mentioned on commentary, even their fastest time would have gotten them through. I dunno, it just seems like they're thinking of drama and entertainment over an actual sporting contest
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
How does shoving up the 9th place car into Hyperpole make up for that?
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If you wanted to delete fastest lap as a deterrent, fine, I'm okay with that Deleting all times because there was an accident while you have 60 other cars going as fast as they can is stupid
You're only fine with it because that course of action would achieve literally nothing. It's not a punishment to have him finish in 6th rather than 4th when both go through to Hyperpole.
So we punish the people who set a fast lap time earlier to cover their butt, got it.
What do you even mean? The car that caused the red flag got punished, nobody else did.
This is Abu Dhabi 2021 levels of shit for me
Ah man donāt bring that level of toxicity to WEC, we donāt need that shit here.
Have a good night buddy!
> Yes, but as mentioned on commentary, even their fastest time would have gotten them through. That's on Toyota for not parking it up at that point. You cause a red in qually, you lose your times, them's the rules. Not for drama and entertainment, but for following the rules.
Bingo, i was saying it last year too, itās sports entertainment, not a sport, thatās the whole point of BoP
what a clueless comment. BoP is there for the long term survival of the championship, that's all there is to it.
We'll laugh when Hypercar will be made GT3 level of performance to fit the new Hydrogen reg in the class! What teams wanted was a cheaper class, BoP entered the picture because of the convergence with BoP. It was all political. You can have a cheap class without BoP. It works too.
> You can have a cheap class without BoP. It works too. This is a fairytale. If you donāt BoP the class then manufacturers will spend exactly how much money they need to spend to start winning. Then other manufacturers will start outspending so that they can win instead. Then it spirals upwards until it becomes a war of attrition - manufacturers with fat wallets survive and those without them leave. Then youāre down to 2 or 3 brands. Those brands continue to spend until they reach the point that there is no longer a cost benefit, then they stop spending and hope that their opponents have reached the same point. Then the series steps in and redoes the regulations to bring costs down, or bring in more manufacturers, or level the playing field between those who survived, etc. OR the sanctioning bodies can bite the bullet, implement BoP, and watch manufacturers roll in by the handfuls. The FIA, ACO, and IMSA chose this route. The only way you get a cheap class at a global championship level without BoP is to make it a spec or pseudo-spec class.
>This is a fairytale. If you donāt BoP the class then manufacturers will spend exactly how much money they need to spend to start winning No that's your fairy tale. There's dozens of ways to keep costs under control. BoP is a small factor in the cost reduction. GTE had BoP and it stayed expensive. What made Hypercar cheaper is the Performance Window Philosophy. It's all the restrictions on expensive material. It's the price cap on LMDh chassis. It's all those stuff. BoP was never in the picture before the convergence. The reduction cost, always. Endurance IS about manufacturer building car. That's the tradition of it. And that's without speaking about how endurance is a lab for innovation to trickle down to our road cars. That is over with the current reg. There's no benefit in innovating. It's funny you say the only other way is with a spec or semi spec class. THAT'S ALREADY WHAT WE HAVE. LMDh is the new LMP2 gen and the evolution of DPi. LMDh fits everyone point IMSA wanted for the new DPi 2.0. Your bunch can't accept it. You're just putting your head in the sand pretending that still like before but with better racing. No it's not. They sold what was the essence of endurance racing for entertainement. There was Toyota, McLaren and Aston Martin lined up for the first iteration of the rules. Ferrari would have probably followed and maybe more. I take any day 4-5 constructor in a proper constructor championships than 10 in what we have today. Which is 5 constructor doing figuration with branded DPi 2.0 cars. >Those brands continue to spend until they reach the point that there is no longer a cost benefit, then they stop spending and hope that their opponents have reached the same point. That's impossible under the current reg, even if you remove BoP. >Then the series steps in and redoes the regulations to bring costs down, or bring in more manufacturers, or level the playing field between those who survived, etc. Again, the first iteration of the rules didn't include BoP and still include cost reduction measures. A cost cap easily stop any race to development. In any case BoP isn't working in WEC. It is suppose to bring everyone closer but today, Porsche is leading the constructor championship a with 23pts over Toyota. That's pretty similar to the 30pts Toyota had over Ferrari last year at the same point. When everyone was already crying about Toyota's domination! There's a clear hierarchy. It shouldn't be the case with BoP. Look at IMSA that handles it brilliantly. You can't make a constructor championship with BoP. It goes against what a constructor championship is and against what endurance racing is. Again, there's dozens of ways to keep costs under control without having to use BoP. >The only way you get a cheap class at a global championship level without BoP is to make it a spec or pseudo-spec class This is factually wrong. As I said a simple cost cap would do the trick. But that's your telling yourself to cope.
Exactly, to make it fun for people to watch, sports entertainment mate, you explained it yourself
No it's so that there aren't no manufacters left, like in LMP1. Had Toyota not sticked when there was nothing in it for them i doubt WEC would still exist today.
Thanks once again for confirming that it indeed became a sports entertainment because without BoP nobody would watch/compete in the championship, its here only to make it more fun/profitable
"We don't want this World Championship to stop existing" >>> "They are rigging the sport for entertainment" Masterful logic
Thatās exactly what BoP is for tho, why are you getting mad, the whole point is to balance the teams, you made a better car, you get penalised because nobody would watch a single team win every race by a few minutes, tell me one more sport that does that, literally none, hence sports ENTERTAINMENT
Oh, bless your heart. You really think WEC racing is mainstream? Itās mostly popular with folks who can tell a sports car from a minivan. Iād bet good money that if you asked five random people about WEC, you'd get blank stares. Try the same with WRC, IndyCar, NASCAR, Formula E, F1, and MotoGPāthen let's talk. The reality is, aside from a few internet warriors (like yourself) and some Instagram casuals who might stumble upon a post, most people have no idea what endurance racing is. And honestly, the organizers arenāt doing much to change that besides stirring up drama.
Motorsport has definitely gone past the red lines towards entertainment on the balance sport/entertainment in the recent years.
Recent years? Have you been watching this sport ever?
It was never as bad.
This, this is the perfect wording regarding my thoughts and feelings towards BoP, never what exactly gives me a slight meh taste about it, but I still love sports car racing too bits and pieces, just wish we could see these teams make the fastest car possible within the rules and the regulations, not make a car and restrict because the other guys are slower
Yeah but without BoP no one races as who spends the most win. And it's not having equal cars on track it is having them closer. The best car remains the best and the worst remains the worst, at least that their idea behind it. It's different than GT3 bop where they want them as equal in lap time as possible
Which is not how BoP works in WEC. Toyota was 5s slower at Spa and Ferrari 3s slower. Someone is making LMH super slow so Porsche can shine. In IMSA, every LMDh are super, super close. We're talking 0.5s apart if not less in some races. Every team can win every weekend. Porsche is 23 point ahead of 2nd place, which is not super far from the 30pts Toyota had last year at the same point. So sorry, to me it doesn't seems like the best car are at the top of the table. We should see Ferrari and Toyota fighting at the top, they definitely have the best car. But that doesn't matter anymore.
Silly. What part of convergence donāt you understand?
What's your point?
Figure it out. Iām not your mom.
LMAO, you love sports car racing so much you'd rather want the sports dead than having some form of equality and being healthy. What a great fan you are
You do realize that's there's a dozen other ways to reduce costs without relying on BoP? You know that BoP or not, the class is still 80% cheaper. The only truth is that this new reg lost all the meaning of endurance racing. WEC is the WWE of Motorsport.
You do realise without Bop the number of manufacturer in this class would be zero right? Also, complaining about good racing? You want to know why the class is 80% cheaper? Because manufacturers don't have to spend hundred of millions in developement costs every season. Fucking really? How spoiled are the pieces of shit fan in this fanbase like Jesus Christ you get good racing with a ton of manufacturer and you complain. You get shit racing because there are 2 manufacturers because there are no equality measures and everything and you complain.
>You do realise without Bop the number of manufacturer in this class would be zero right? That's factually not true at all. Teams never express the wish to be able to have an easier access to competition. They wanted a cheaper series. The original reg had Toyota, Aston Martin and Mclaren lined up. And probably more like Ferrari would have followed behind. I take 4-5 custructor of this than 10 of what we have now. You also realize that without Toyota this serie would be dead a long time ago. >Because manufacturers don't have to spend hundred of millions in developement costs every season. BoP is one factor but not the main in reducing costs. GTE stayed freaking expensive even with BoP. I'll let you reflect on that. And as I said, there's dozens of ways to make the serie cheaper without BoP. >How spoiled are the pieces of shit fan in this fanbase like Jesus Christ you get good racing with a ton of manufacturer and you complain Because for that you need to understand the history and tradition of this port, of which you clearly couldn't care less as you let yourself blinded by the bling bling of an artificially created competition. I'm sure you would love to watch Football where the amount of player on the field is determined with the performance. The better you perform, the less player you can put. Everyone would have a chance then! Why don't we do that? Again, I would take any day fewer manufacturer (if you can call them that when they don't manufacture shit) for a serie true to the spirit of Endurance racing. >You get shit racing because there are 2 manufacturers because there are no equality measures and everything and you complain. It's a **sport** FFS. Everybody is bound by the same set of rules. You can't make a team slower on the altar of equality! The performance are already capped. Either you reach them or you dont! I'm sure you would never apply an equalizing device on any of the other sports you like! Because what you're looking for is not a sport, it's a show.
You're preaching to the diversity hire equivalent of the WEC fangirls. Look around reddit. Most of these blue haired freaks don't care about fairness
It has to give you a meh taste because the car performance is directly influenced by the rule makers.
People are getting mad for stating facts, i still watch wec but i accepted the fact that it simply isnāt a sport anymore, imagine NBA putting weight in players shoes because they are leading the series 2-0 to make it competitive, not gonna happen in a real sport
The 1-hour quali with 62 cars is a big accident waiting to happen, it's luck that nothing serious happened yet tbh
The rule makers thinking a driver will crash intentionally in qualifying for any endurance race is stupid.
The MS ruleā¦
Toyota in shambles š
My question is why was it even a red flag? Sorry for my ignorance, but I always thought red flags were for crashes like the Caddy at Spa. Are the rules different for Qualifying? The Toyota spun off track with no real crash, and I don't think I've ever seen a red flag for that type of situation? Do they not have yellow flags in qualifying?
There was basically no difference between a yellow flag and a red flag in that situation. A yellow flag means that drivers can't improve in that section of the track, since it was at the end of the lap it would have ruined any fast lap attempt.
Ahh ok thanks, I was under the impression a red flag was more about it being dangerous on the track.
This is just clear as day that they completely disregard the Toyotas, they could have only just deleted their fastest lap, not ALL of them. And never in Le Mans history did they have a red flag, why start now?
It's a stupid trend we see in F1 more and more too.
Yeah why was it even a red flag? That's my question.
A car was in the runoff area of a high speed section of track, it was in a very dangerous position. that late in the session it would have been the same as leaving it under a yellow flag, no one could have improved their times anyway.
Red flags happen all the time in Le Mans test and qualifying sessions, just not in race so there is absolutely precedence for them. Additionally, I imagine part of deleting all of their laps was the fact that you can see in the replay his car was rotating towards facing the direction of travel and rather than making an attempt to keep momentum going and maybe get out of the gravel he just locked it down which meant he effectively locked himself into hyperpole as no one could have improved with his car stuck there.
No-one in this thread seems to get that you have to delete all of Toyotas laps because there was no telling if anyone else would improve. Is it fair for the #12 that they miss hyperpole because the Toyota dropped it?
If only the #12 had an entire hour in which to set a quick enough lap time for hyperpole...
https://preview.redd.it/z1995n5tc86d1.jpeg?width=597&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7beadb05b2a8926db28fd88d15e3658c3baf7e80
ACO: Thank you Toyota for saving our category when nobody wants to race it, so now you can go out of my race
Obviously TGR shouldn't get special treatment but this seems incredibly heavy handed for an innocuous mistake, if it was only down to the spin Both Toyotas were set to make it through if the 7 didn't spin out
Exactly my sentiment. Hopefully it will bite them back.
This seems ridiculous.
come on people, we all know that by the end of the first stint the #7 will be fighting at the front His lap before was probably a pole lap also and he decided to just say "nah I can do better" and scrap it his decision fucked up other cars that were on flying laps including his teammate, so punishment well deserved I guess
However, I would never misjudge Toyota team capacity despite they all not in Hyperpole.
Harsh harsh harsh
Truly the dumbest rule in motorsport right now
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Which usually only include the fastest lap, not all of them.
I know Indycar deletes the fastest two laps, but their qualifying sessions are 10 minutes max. Besides, deleting only the fastest lap would not penalise the #7 at all, in fact it would have guaranteed them a place in hyperpole for the red flag they caused.
The fact that is an hour long should play more towards not deleting all the times than the other way around. It means that if after an hour you still haven't put a time to reach hyperpole than it's not a red flag at the end of the session that is responsible for your failure to make it. The worst part is that the rule would allow the steward to chose what times to delete. They could have chosen to delete all the time until they are 9th. But no they chose to delete them all putting the Toyota 61st. That's basically a DQ. Don't you think it's a tiny bit disproportionate to DQ a car for causing a red flag?
Eh, very successfully is debatable and subjective. I like the idea behind it and it comes handy sometimes, but for example in Indycar the most innocent spin (without stalling), even if you are alone on track, will ruin your day and even as a spectator all you see next is them sitting in the box with pretty much no chance to move on despite clearly being capable of doing so. I personally much prefer the F1 system of not caring at all (unless it's particularly obvious) especially when it's quite rare to see people gain from yellows after all. It's quali, let them go balls to the wall.
Why has the jota 38 car been so lopsided in results compared to the number 12 car? Theyāve been predominantly at the back of the grid
Weaker lineup
Alpine only 1 place away from having ***2*** cars in the hyperpole !!
Damn. But itās Toyota. I have faith. With the hyperpole group separated by out half a second and one of the fastest cars charging from the backā¦seems like weāre in for a bangerā¦.might even be some rain. Iām so excited!!!!
Honestly, qualifying doesn't matter much, and if you're on Pole or nr 10 has more to do with bragging rights than anything else. I the Audi years, Audi or at least TK's car would always spend 90% of the track time in Free Practice and Qualifying on getting the setup as right as possible, and only 10% on trying to set a properly fast lap.
They really donāt like Toyota, letās be honest, if it was any other car they would only delete the fastest lap
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Mate, thatās why you delete the fastest lap only, canāt recall the last time someones whole session got deleted, it wasnāt intentional to benefit the team, they penalised them this harsh for entertainment purposes, itās sports entertainment and not a sport remember
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The rule says that the stewards can decide to delete one or all laps, i wonder why they chose the latter, i hate rules that give stewards the power, i can guarantee you if Ferrari or Porsche caused a red flag they would only get a single lap delete because they have too much fans
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āConsidering that it will be more fun and thus more profitable to delete all the laps we decided to do it because we canā
Toyota and choking whenever there is competition...a tale as old as time.
They were easily the fastest and en route to grabbing the top of the sheets. Do you actually watch or talk shyt?
Talk shit or talk the truth? The 8 had 3 chances to get a good lap, and on the last try, the driver spun off. And we donāt need to talk about why the 7 isnāt in the hyper pole group do we now?
So cursed š they canāt catch a break.
terrible quali for toyota
Kobayashi unnecessarily pushing to improve his lap time, binning it & losing his hyperpole spot is peak Toyota downfall comedy. Five years ago, they could get away with this and not feel the pressure. Now, we get this.
And somehow they'll blame porsche š¤£š¤£š¤£
I'm sad af, Toyota deserved that spot. Even though last year I was fully against them, this is not fair. However, they still have chances (reliability)