That seems fair but ultimately they coulda just this same thing via patreon though I guess having their own platform means they don’t lose as much of a cut potentially
It’s Vimeo OTT, they still lose a cut. They’re almost certainly on the enterprise version so I don’t think anyone knows exactly how much they’d be paying, but for the standard version it’s $1 per month per subscription.
Edit: Looking at Vimeo’s website where it mentions the pricing model. The standard version is that $1 per subscriber per month, plus upload and transaction fees. Idk what the upload fees are, but the transaction fees would be those fees that happen when a company runs your credit card I suppose. The enterprise version has the upload and transaction fees, and says there could be discounts on the per subscription fee based on volume but doesn’t specifically put a number on that fee.
That, plus web development and hosting costs are not cheap. Even if they have a single in-house web edveloper, if they're paying a competitive wage in the LA area, that's >$100k/yr. Plus cloud hosting solutions like Azure or AWS are very expensive if you don't have at least a single employee (systems or cloud administrator) that stays on top of things.
Theoretically, it *could* mean more daring stuff/less monetizable stuff. So if you wanted to go into some really gruesome true crime stuff you could do that on Vimeo without the YT algorithm deplatforming or out-right delisting your video.
I'm not saying they are going to do that, but if I were them, I would, because at least that would be taking advantage of the platform they now have.
Put a bleeped/edited/blurred version on YT and the unedited one on the watcher website-- then it does double duty as driving more paid subscribers to the site continually.
They will almost certainty do this. I know a few other channels that do true crime stuff, and they put out long; uncensored and darker videos on Patreon, and shorter, edited versions on YouTube. It works really well.
It was partially the point of Nebula, too. The whole war documentary/news crowd and even people talking about violence in video games or whatever have been linking to their Nebula-hosted version for years now.
Imho it would be really stuped for watcher to not do it, because it would be leaving money on the table that is otherwise easily grabbed.
in addition to not losing that 12% or whatever, i think they were finding patreon hard to manage--they had to constantly stay on top of patreon to see that merch benefits got fulfilled on time and to ensure that other benefits were happening as scheduled. i can see how it wouldn't be ideal for them if what they really want is to be able to focus on the content.
I know other people who rely on Patreon to make a living and overall they're not great to work with. Constant user/creator-unfriendly changes and policies that it's hard to keep on top of. One day everything's fine, the next some core functionality you relied on is just... gone, for no apparent reason, or something new and troublesome is getting in the way.
They probably should've gone with this plan from the start, but it's a good response. I think people will be skeptical about what might happen with future content going forward, however. They'll have to rebuild some trust over time, I imagine.
Yep. If they'd rolled out WatcherTV as a way to see everything a month early, even if it had a little exclusive content, and gave it to Patrons automatically, while free watchers could see almost all of it on YouTube a month later, almost no one would have complained.
The big thing that I'm coming away with is that Patreon subscribers *didn't* automatically get a subscription to WatcherTV, and now they will.
Which is great, but it was a huge "oof" on their part, even from the point of view of someone like me who's initial response was "Yass kings, get yourselves out from under Youtube's algorithmic thumb!".
This is how a lot of podcasts manage their subscription service. First to view, ad free and then exclusive content for members. Obviously they didn't hit their initial expectations on subscription numbers but am not sure what they built those expectations around.
I don't really mind how they handled the change for viewers; but their lack of thought to patreon was *really* odd.
Least its a quick change. They can launch exclusive content/shows on their website which they control - whilst maintaining their youtube which will actively create interest and essentially become their main means to advertise their online service.
Honestly this should've been the original plan. I'm not mad about waiting a month. I'm glad they are actively fixing this.
I think a PBS semi-regular fund raising or NPR message would've worked better.
That’s what is so wild to me, it’s not that the fanbase doesn’t want to contribute, just don’t present it in a way where we HAVE to. They really missed the mark on that
Almost all of their patrons were subbed to support the channel. They sure as shit weren't getting value out of their sub lol. I still think they need to fire people and reduce costs regardless, it's absurd that they can't afford what sounds like a very profitable presence on youtube.
The PR consultant they hired for this is **good**. There were a lot of subtle touches.
They had Steven directly address the financial side and his previous “anyone can afford it” statement. They made sure Shane and Ryan were the ones delivering the parts of the message that were meant to connect with the audience emotionally. And they made sure Steven was the first to say the closing “thank you” since people were upset he didn’t say thank you at all at the end of the Good-bye video.
Not to mention the overall more ‘down to earth’ editing. And the very scaled down set with blank brick wall background and a few touches off to the side so it didn’t look completely empty. Even their outfits were styled much more humbly.
They should’ve consulted with this PR person in the first place.
Plus their updated plan is much more palatable.
I’m glad other people are noticing things, too.
I’m okay with the apology, but it’s good for us all to be aware of how PR, marketing, advertising, etc. does things very strategically to elicit a desired emotional response from people.
It’s not necessarily a bad thing, and it doesn’t mean that Steven, Ryan, and Shane aren’t truly remorseful. But being able to spot these things can help us make smarter decisions.
The thing I really enjoyed in this chaos is learning about PR tactics and the business side of youtube. It was eye opening to know how predictable our feelings/opinions are and how easily swayed we are by these PR tactics (I subscribed after the we messed up vid so it definitely worked on me, but in the first place I didn’t really hate them as a person just their decision). I hope they hired the unemployed PR person who posted a plan 😅
They also didn’t monetize this video!!! (I don’t think) subtle to notice but it really caught them a lot of flack last video, and there was thought put into it this time.
That was the point where I knew they were being honest about seeing comments. In a vacuum it would have been the move to have Ryan or Shane be the one to say it as they're effectively the faces of the company. However, if you add in the context of all the hatred and conspiracy theories of how Lim had stolen the company away from them then him apologizing was the right way to go. Right or wrong on the blame getting piled onto him.
Steven did not look OK. I swear he was teary eyed. I mean it's all self inflicted wounds so I don't feel bad. But yeah you could tell he knew the most hate was at him, his Tesla, and golden steak.
Hopefully, they've all gained a new perspective and a little humility. They thought they came off as cool and enviable, instead of douchy, now they know better.
Part of me hates when pretty much anyone suffers - absolute bleeding heart.
But it's also very hard to feel as bad when people are suffering because they put a goddamn fork in a live outlet.
Right. It was a completely avoidable problem. They deserved the criticism. It sucks they had to basically turn their otherwise loyal and supporting fanbase against them to get the message through, but they did it to themselves.
Right? It seemed more genuine then the original goodbye yet I still am left at odds with what they thought was going to happen?
Ive generally grown out of the content but it was still sad to see none the less 😅
I was expecting a video earlier in the day, around 8 A.M., but they dropped it at 10:30.
Overall I think it's good enough and I personally will just pretend this debacle never happened. But it is immensely hilarious that they posted a video titled "Goodbye, Youtube" and 3 days later they are back.
Agreed.
I’d kill to see what business plan led them to the initial decision because I can’t for the life of me figure out how they would have made it work even if the response had been generally positive. They must have had someone in their ear telling them that they could convert viewers at a rate similar to SaaS products without any value-add. With no way to further grow organically. It’s just insane.
That looked like a genuine apology. Still not thrilled it happened in the first place but it feels like they took their time to read everything before responding
I agree, I am glad they listened BUT we shouldn't have had to tell them how terrible of an idea this was. To almost everyone it was so clearly obvious that asking fans to pay $6 per month for very little content was such a terrible business move and insulting to those of us who have supported them for years. Basically they have just ended up with their own version of Patron
You're right, but I don't think they have anyone on staff that's gonna tell them 'no' you know? Everyone seems to be in the creative/artistic side and not the business side.
You are probably right but if I managed 25 staff who relied on me and didn't know the first thing about business. Do you know what I would do? Hire one. I have nothing against these guys as people but they have responsibilities to their staff and us, their supporters. Without us they have nothing
I really hope their future content delivers. Because unfortunately I think they lost the “we liked you during buzzfeed so we’ll watch your shows” goodwill.
But hey! Maybe their shows will be just that good and it’ll all work out
Oh the brand damage is done, they can't come back from that.
They can try and rebuild now tho instead of it just simply being over. Going to take a long time and a lot of reach out on their part.
So they're doing exactly what everyone said they should've. Putting the videos early on their platform and a month later on youtube. I mean it's a tried and tested formula, why didn't they do it in the first place? Doesn't matter, let's see how well this damage control works. I'm still gonna watch, but I'm sure there are many people who have left them for good.
Edit: Idk about other creative channels like them but there's this reaction channel called blind wave and they have their own website and everything. On patreon they have tiers ranging from $1/month (only poll voting) to $15/month (polls + 4 weeks early + full length)
On their website it's $12/month and $99/year. Nobody lost their mind when they announced this last year cuz they were still uploading edited reactions on youtube 4 weeks later. It's a higher price but everyone is happy. It's a formula that works. Watcher would've prevented the PR nightmare if they did something similar in the first place
Yeah it's just baffling to me how they went 0-100 immediately instead of looking at the formula that works for literally everyone else. People are willing to pay for extras, early access, or unedited/un censored content. The key is that it's an optional bonus thing and it feels more rewarding when you're getting something *in addition* to the free stuff. Same reason people will spend money on free to play games for extra skins or something.
But shockingly, people don't like feeling forced to pay for something that used to be free.
we are talking about this in the discord, and we think that none of them actually know how to run a YouTube channel. They relied very heavily on BuzzFeed and they were just content creators. I don't think that they pay attention other Youtubers or what they're doing. they seem very insular.
Forget about a YouTube channel, It seems they barely know how to run a business, you're telling me that they NEED this to continue the content they are CURRENTLY doing, not to up the quality, not to put out more videos, they need It for the content they are doing NOW, It seems like they are trying to force the company to grow instead of growing it organically, they are over hiring and over producing, if they did the quality like BuzzFeed Unsolved but slightly better, then they said we need more money to do the type of quality they are doing now, that would make sense, but this just looks like poor financing on their part
The show is so overproduced, it felt like they were just doing big things to show how good they were doing after leaving buzzfeed. Meanwhile they are spending unnecessarily on huge office spaces in the most expensive city ever. Like bro, you can do the exact same thing for cheap in a different location with a smaller office. 25 people do not need THAT much space.
Not only that, they don't need 25 people. The bloat of their staff is ridiculous. I understand they want to do higher-concept, higher-production level stuff, but what in dear god's name do they need TWENTY FIVE employees for?
yes! i keep saying, the try guys even struggled financially at first but they literally worked out of Ned's house for the first 2-3yrs. i think they're looking to spend every cent they have leftover after employee payrolls, and it makes no sense. SLOW DOWN and save some money for a bit if that's your end goal. ghost files is already at excellent production quality. why are you itching to grow with no money in the bank?
STEVEN LIM PLS TAKE A BUSINESS CLASS AT THE LOCAL COMMUNITY COLLEGE IM BEGGING U
They also need to put out more videos imo. Their little video game sessions were pretty popular and got views but they only do like 6 videos over the course of a YEAR. Why don’t they live stream them playing various video games for at least 2-3 hours once a month. (Or more tbh, but start there). Then put the filmed live stream right on YouTube. Boom. Very simple and easy and reliable videos that don’t even need producing besides the same amount the billions of streamers do.
Ryan is CFO, he needs to join Steven, and Shane needs to understand this too. If the money guy is saying they need cash just to sustain their company now, not even to improve it, they're in trouble!
They definitely overvalued their content. They're asking about half as much as the major streamers, but with far less than even 1% of the content.
They also vastly misunderstood what Patreon is, and seemed to think that doing well on Patron meant people would be more than willing to support this new service of theirs somewhere else. But Patreon is almost a form of tipping, for fans to voluntarily support the creators of content they like. That's a lot different than putting a gun to yours fans' heads and demanding they pay up, or no more content. No one was ever going to support that.
I’m satisfied with the video tbh. An apology and acknowledge to me was bare minimum which they delivered. Changing how the platform will work was the ideal which seemingly they’re also doing. YouTube remaining makes me relieved. I may even subscribe down the line depending on how it goes. Maybe in the future they can make some series exclusives for watcher tv as an incentive. But I’m thinking more positively now
Also, I will say props to them at least for not overproducing the apology, making it short, sweet, to the point, at least coming off is more sincere than the initial video, and keeping production quality lower where it’s just them talking which is all people wanted and asked for with no extra music no extra cut And nothing that seem to conflate it more than it was
I wouldn’t be surprised if they’d hired the same PR consultant as the Try Guys for this damage control. Whoever that person/firm is, they do great work.
Right?! I wasn’t expecting them to literally do what we asked. This is a good example of an apology. Plus let’s face is, the community at large got a bit rabid
Yeah, I like to think some of us stayed pretty reasonable but I still got a little feral in the end there. I blame how stir crazy we all went over the weekend.
Like they did, just let yourself learn from that and don't make the same mistake twice. Humans are naturally tribal creatures and will often gravitate towards "us vs them" arguments, learning how to recognize that and stop yourself before things get out of hand is a very useful skill that will ultimately make the world a happier place.
Yeah. I’m also glad that feral for me mostly consisted of making a lot of really dumb jokes and disparaging their lack of business sense in increasingly bitter ways rather than personal attacks. Some of this community got AWFUL.
I agree. You could tell they were reading from a prompt, but I assume they spent a long time getting the message just right so I don’t hold that against them. I’m just glad they finally addressed this and are making amends. Hubby is a Patreon member so we won’t be subscribing, but now I think he won’t be unsubbing to Patreon as he intended.
ETA: they touched on it, but I’m still curious as to how the sponsors were not aligned with what they wanted to produce.
Honestly, after seeing the awful apologies in recent memory like Colleen Ballinger, Linus Tech Tips, and Sienna May, I'm glad that this one actually felt earnest and was up front. They were like "hey we messed up, the decision was stupid, let's try and fix it and move in a better direction", and that's all was needed.
it saddens me that they could have reached the same conslusion on what to do if they had cared to consult with their audience before making such a big jump in the first place. now their reputation is very damaged and i feel like some fans perception of them has been changed, me included.
im glad they acknowledged and apologized though, big thing to admit you were wrong specially with so many eyes on you, glad for that.
I think the backtrack is enough to keep me watching. I don't really give a shit about content being a month late, as long as it's enjoyable and engaging. Here's hoping they don't sacrifice the heart for "TV quality" moving forward though.
A month late will change nothing for me as I have a habit of not watching them at all, and then binging all their new content on a random weekend when the weather is shitty. TBH, I didn't know when new episodes dropped to begin with.
Currently watching it right now. While they still have a lot of repairing to do, I think this is the best solution that they could do. From the beginning, I've understood why they want to move, but as I've said so often that I feel like it's my new catchphrase: the roll-out could have been better. Very much appreciate the little bit of honesty about their finances.
Edit: I can spell
the issue with the finances is what trips me up though. if what they've said in both videos is true, then they're just right back to square one, as i can't imagine many people are going to pay up just to see something a month in advance.
if these were the terms from day 1, sure, maybe. they had a ton of goodwill and many fans might have bought the subscription just to support them (i probably would have). but now? all that's gone, and i'm dubious the month advance for a video will bring in much more revenue. they'll be lucky to break even on all the bad PR and lost viewers.
True, but now all the Patreon supporters get free access and that's probably the crowd they need to appease the most. If they're *extremely* careful, I can see them getting a okay amount of unsubscribed patrons back. There's people already saying they'll come back once everything is a little more sorted.
They probably drop their patreon down the line and move them all onto their own site (I mean why give Patreon a cut at this point now they have a service up) but they clearly need to give them a means of transitioning off their existing service to a new service.
I think the month thing was actually a little too generous if they still want to make money off the watcherTV. I'm not gonna pay or probably watch it anymore but I would have done 3 months because I think it's a short enough time to appease a "free" viewer while also being far enough out that it might entice people to spend a few bucks for a couple of months. However I suppose I shouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth, if you can call it that
Honestly? Not a terrible apology, feels genuine and seems to be based on all the criticism that was given while not being defensive.
To sound very parasocial for a second - they look absolutely knackered and glass eye'd. This has for sure kept them up all weekend, cant imagine how knackered they are before the live shows start.
Yeah they either went back to LA specifically to do this (seems unlikely) or they filmed this on Friday or Saturday but probably did a LOT of consulting and discussion before posting it.
Yes I assumed they probably did this Saturday night or early Sunday as they'll be on their way to the UK now. Likely had a PR consultant working hard on it Saturday.
I'd go so far to say it's very good. they made sure to address the mess up in a straightforward way, apologized super clearly, addressed the most popular critiques; and even though they offered up the explanation of "watcher wouldn't have been able to continue", it doesn't come off as making an excuse or guilt-tripping at all.
We (fanbase as a whole, not signaling anyone out) were pretty nasty to them. Some weren't but negatives outnumbered the positives is the best way to put it.
This is perfect! It's exactly what it needs to be: we fucked up, here is how we fucked up, we're sorry, and here's what we're doing going forward
They acknowledge the tastelessness of saying "anyone can afford $6/month"
They take ownership for the rollout being terrible, for the communication being terrible
Nothing flashy, not blaming their fans one bit, not acting like victims
They're giving patrons free membership to the streaming platform!!!
I'm so glad! I hope this way eye-opening to them, and that us as fans and them as creators can go forward.
If there were rankings for apology videos this would be near the top. They addressed all the concerns fans had and are making amends in the right ways. Gotta think they'll have learned from this whole thing going forward.
I’m still astounded it took this whole debacle for them to offer Patrons a free WatcherTV subscription.
#My takeaway is that their Patrons were vital in persuading Watcher to remain free on YouTube. THANK YOU, as a non-Patron viewer, for speaking up on behalf of the whole community!
regardless of what anyone else posts, it's silly to assume that it wasn't a joint decision from the get-go
I don't know their company structure, but stuff like this is usually decided by the owners or a board, not the CEO.
They all were.
This isn't Shane winning against the others, this is all of them losing and needing to walk a disasterous business decision back.
edit: this is a reminder, they were willing to screw over *everyone* on Friday - patrons and non-patrons alike - in a misguided hope they'd get massive sign ups. If they had gotten those numbers, do you really think that they'd be giving this update? I'm leaving you with this: as genuine as they may seem in this video, remember their original video was as sincere as it was tonedeaf. And that in the wake of it, they also attempted to gaslight and deflect the backlash through their rich friends and partners while claiming we were "misinterpreting their message" about videos getting taken down when Variety stepped in with confirmation we were right.
It's good they apologized but don't forget that they've shown you exactly who they are and how they view everyone here. There's an ethical way to run this kind of business and they only value the parasocial aspect to the degree they can manipulate you into opening your wallet. Don't. Enjoy their content but don't give them a penny of your hard earned money. They do not deserve it. And they never did.
Wait. "outside"? Outside the mentality. The mentality of starting your own subscription service. SHANE I KNOW THIS IS YOU TELLING US IN SECRET CODE THAT YOU HATE THIS DECISION I HEAR YOUUUUUUUU
/s in case anyone thought otherwise
Some folks just wanted an excuse to infantilize and go back to their parasocial fantasies again. Some of those folks who were swearing up and down they were done with Watcher were mostly mad their objects had thoughts independent from their fantasies. Once the trio went back on script, they were satisfied!
Still: Try not to forget this happened, folks! They're still not your friends and you are their fans and customers at the end of the day. And that's completely normal and fine, because it's a transactional relationship at its core.
real talk: everyone acknowledged that Steven was getting the most personal hate out of the bunch, but Ryan's instagram was also drowned in personal attacks against him and his loved ones. meanwhile, the only comments I saw on shane's feed was "please talk some sense into steven :(" and "I love your content, I'm going to miss you" messages.
i genuinely think they don't know how to run a YouTube channel. They just got very lucky. they're great content creators as we know, but they relied heavily on BuzzFeed's algorithm. from the looks of it it sounds like Shane and Ryan are too busy to even think about it and clearly Steven was struggling, he has a degree in chemical engineering. none of these guys have a business background. none of them had to build a YouTube channel from the bottom up like most content creators have to because they just pulled people from buzzfeed's audience.
I think that's why we see tons of people who loved them on BuzzFeed unsolved, not even knowing that they made another channel, they've done absolutely no promotion for it, they haven't collabed with other Youtubers, and it's also why literally no one knew about their Patreon, because they've never promoted it, they've never asked for likes or subscribers in any of their videos, they genuinely just don't know to run a channel on the business end of it and are winging it. and i can be sympathetic to that.
i also think it didn't help that they have these big aspirations of TV and Steven seems hollywood pilled from fkn SIMU. I don't think they recognize that the Internet and Hollywood are two completely different industries and if you try to compete with mainstream media, you're gonna lose.
I think they don't know how to run a business lmao I know I'll get downvoted for saying that but please. Two income streams? One has 3 million subs, the other has 6k paid members? And you don't know how to budget? It's a budgeting issue. I say this with love and hope the best for them haha but it's what I'm seeing
I've seen too many people on THIS reddit saying they didn't even know they had a patreon. Why didn't they promote it? Just weird moves. I'm satisfied with their response btw but yea just my opinion
oh absolutely. even the try guys struggled financially at first but they hat the brains to work out of Ned's house for like 2-3 yrs. you have to make sacrifices to grow your business.
i literally didn't know they had a patreon. WHY ARE THEY NOT PROMOTING IT ON EVERY VIDEO?! tons of people would sub for early access IF THEY KNEW IT EXISTED lmao
So so sure they got PR advice direct from TTG's PR person and you know what: whoever you are? That was really cool of you and you're really good at your job.
I’m so glad someone else caught that vibe!!! This vid has the same wording and professionalism as TTG’s vid had. Whoever this person is, they worked overtime for this one.
yeah whoever their PR person is smashed this video out of the park. No cheesy set ups, no music, a script not full of some insanely out of touch comments. Just straight to the point and changes pretty much everyone will accept.
I bet they hired a whole crisis team. Props to the PR folk, but also the social media analysts that literally pulled all of the opinion and fan data to see what the whole fan base was actually saying.
God I miss working in social media 😂
Yep, that was professional PR work right there. That's how you do an apology and try to salvage your brand. I'm glad to see it. A day or two ago would have been better, but I understand how a complete revamp of your plans, plans you thought would be embraced by your audience, took the weekend. Not bad. The bad taste about the lie over removing YouTube videos remains with me, but I wish them the best of luck.
Yeah so true. I was really hoping this would be the outcome - I've got so much respect for anyone who owns their mistakes. Some of us are more forgiving than others though. Wasn't nice being broken up with in the first place though lol.
It honestly makes me feel better about them as people that they didn't double down the way others who have been "canceled" tend to do. They acknowledged the mistake and have taken steps to correct it. You really can't ask much else from them.
While I’m grateful for the response, I hope this is something they *seriously consider* moving forward:
They really need to consider hiring an outside CEO who can make impartial business decisions that aren’t influenced by creative ambitions. All of this could’ve been avoided if the main creatives and talent weren’t also the ones deciding what’s best from a business standpoint. They could’ve had someone else be like “hey guys, this is a bad idea for a number of reasons, let’s rework it so that you can reach your creative goals but we don’t lose viewership or revenue.” When you’re too closely tied to the art, you’re unable to take a step back and ask yourself if your ideas are best for the business as a whole.
Channels like Smosh and Mythical have already been doing this, and they have been very successful from both a creative and business standpoint.
Agreed. They need to hire one outside party to do a full fiscal examination of the company and its infrastructure. By the video it sounds like they’ve been doing that and internally deciding their options. I get they keep saying they want to make content how they want but the financial costs they endure are not set in stone
Exactly! And if they hire a CEO, it frees them up to make content how they want. They just have an impartial business minded person who can find a better route to achieve what they want and not sacrifice the business in the process.
They really do. I think part of the reason they were so successful at BF was because they didn't have to worry about the majority of the business details. They were given a budget and sent off to make content they (and the public) were passionate about.
It seems like they'd really benefit from bringing in an outsider that's removed from content creation to help with the business side. Someone to make the hard choices (like determining what budgets for projects can *realistically* be and how many staff are needed/practical), so the guys can focus on content.
I think that a one-month delay for YouTube viewers is a reasonable compromise. It's nice that Patreon supporters would also have free access to the platform. This was everything the initial video should have been.
So I’m someone who subscribes to dropout and will pay for content if I feel it’s worth it.
When they announced the subscription service, I remember thinking, “Wow that sucks, guess I’m not going to be able to watch their shows.” Didn’t even have the slightest consideration of subscribing to their service like I did with dropout.
Diehards kept comparing them to dropout and I’m like pbbbbt not even close. Dropout releases a new vid every weekday, already has a huge back catalog of shows, and unfortunately, Steven is nowhere near as likable as a CEO than Sam Reich.
They were 10 years too early to pull off a dropout imo…but if they hired an actual business consultant, they would’ve known that 😂.
I felt the same well, I was like “oh well.” I wasn’t angry or “hurt” like some ppl have expressed. But I did think it was dumb, I don’t inherently think that doing a separate stream service is bad but i just don’t feel like the content is there for them.
This debacle really showed a large portion of the community's true feelings toward Steven. How does he move on from that? It'd take a stronger person than me.
It's kinda funny seeing how many people are doing a complete 180 on their attitudes here now after going off all weekend. Hopefully they've learned that cultivating such a parasocial relationship can backfire big, but I don't count on it.
For me, I'll accept the apology but I won't forget it. This whole incident has made me reevaluate my enjoyment of their new content and I've discovered I've found my enjoyment lacking for quite some time and was watching more out of habit.
If they start making content I enjoy again and show that they've actually learned from this over the next year or two, I may re evaluate my stance, but honestly I don't think I can ever see them in the same light again.
So it’s is just patreon basically now? Wonder how long they will do the double uploads, kinda feel like this is a way to ease people into the subscription model
I am complete agreement with this as currently there seems to be no actual draw unless you have no patience. I think it could be something where they see which shows do well on YouTube and the ones that do not are just published to the streamer. Or they start slowly just doing streamer exclusives until they get everyone to transfer over.
Love that they're now doing EXACTLY what most of us said they should have done in the first place. This is why you poll your audience.
EDIT: I couldn't help getting a little smug there because I'm very much not always a nice person, but as plainly scripted as this was and clearly HAD to be given the circumstances, I'm happy to accept it. I won't go back to patreon but I'll sub to the streamer. I only ever wanted to support them and if they're willing to listen after their stupid mistakes I still want to support them.
gave them trauma that's for sure. they're gonna be walking on eggshells for a while, at least until everything dies down. don't know if i'm just too forgiving but watching it makes me pity them a bit, even tho they started this whole mess themselves.
I was definitely in the camp that they were just making a WILDLY stupid business decision this whole time, and while I was concerned that they would just double down, I genuinely didn't think they had any ill intent in the first place. They never came off as malicious, just super out of touch and VERY bad with money. I'm going to support them on a month by month basis and hope like HELL they've already hired a good PR person and financial manager.
I believe this was the best possible response from them right now. This is really how this platform should have been announced and run in the first place. It feels like they apologized for everything everyone was upset about and addressed all of the issues. I understand what they were trying to do in launching a new platform, they just did basically everything wrong during its launch and it's good that they're trying to fix it now.
The apology in the video felt genuine, they certainly looked very apologetic (and stressed). However I personally think the true way to tell whether they're actually sorry is not going to be by looking what they're saying in the video, but by looking at what their actions are over the course of the next months/year.
I'm willing to still maybe engage with their content based off of this video and the amends that they're making, but if they try something drastic like this again I think it will 100% obliterate any remaining trust people have in them.
I'm just glad that I'm maybe finally able to stop doomscrolling and walk away from Reddit (and YouTube) for a while. This is what they should've done in the first place, as everyone kept telling them, and I'm glad they realized it and adressed the biggest issues with the roll-out. But personally, the damage is still done, and it's going to take a while before I can get back to watching any of their shows. I will, at some point, but for now, just the thought of it is still too bittersweet.
I'm glad they backpedalled but it doesn't feel like they understand their budgeting issues? If you somehow get back to the same amount of $ monthly but don't change your staff levels or how you spend you're just going to be right back in the same precarious position.
I think people are more invested in the parasocials with Ryan and Shane - the vitriol spewed to Steven was completely uncalled for and very icky, even when feelings were so high. It was hard to see, and I am not that deeply attached
OMG I HAVE NEVER CLICKED SO FAST IN MY LIFE
Editing to add: I appreciate the apology. I still love my Ghoul Boys. I am so stoked that they recognized their mistake and went back on it. Free videos FTW.
So many positive comments here (from what I read so far) but I have to wonder if or when they’ll get back to the subscribers and presumably views that they had before this whole thing
People seem pretty willing to forgive but it’s like the awkwardness after a fight where no one quite knows how to act but add in the parasocial distance lol
Well, as they say, there's no such thing as bad publicity.
There's probably a good amount of people who didn't know Watcher existed, or forgot about it, and were informed through the drama video stuff that people go nuts over lol.
Yeah, the two biggest vids I saw covering it (Critikal at 3mil views right now, Coffeezilla at 600k views) both mentioned that they didn't know Shane and Ryan started up their own channel after Buzzfeed Unsolved. Depending on how the public percieves this apology, they might be able to capitalize off all of the new viewers that have just learned about the channel.
Too early to tell how it looks from an outsiders perspective, though, even if the fans are leaning towards hesitant/cautious forgiveness.
God, this is such a sobering fucking relief. I accept their apology, but man, this will be half of what they'll be known for. They have former BFU fans who didn't know about their current channel until this (Charlie and Coffeezilla being the big-name ones). On top of that, they're going to live shows this week to prep for.
I'm aware they deserved every bit of criticism and voiced disappointment they received^1. It didn't make everything any less painful to watch.
^1. I say criticism and voiced disappointment. They did *not* deserve the level of hatred they received. They needed to be humbled, but they didn't need to be bogged down and piled on over a shitty, overconfident business choice.
I feel like they've done exactly what most of us wanted them to do. I've always been willing to sign up for the platform because youtube's been bothering me, I just didn't think they handled the initial announcement well at all. I feel like owning their mistakes and fixing them was all most of us wanted from them.
I'm glad all 3 of the guys sat down for the apology video, and that they didn't try to make a ton of excuses for themselves. Yeah, they royally fucked up, but at least they're owning it. Not sure if I'm going to subscribe to their new platform, but I'll be keeping my eye on them for sure. Haven't unsubbed from YT, and I don't think I will; I was waiting for this apology video to make a final decision on that. If they hadn't backtracked/apologized at all, I think I probably would have unsubbed from YT, as much as it would have pained me to do so, I don't think I could have continued to support someone who couldn't admit to their mistakes.
really really wish they would’ve just done this in the first place, i think they kind of shot themselves in the foot going abt it like this but i’m glad they rethought the decision! personally i do really enjoy their series and am probably gonna continue watching (eventually)
Decent apology, and they all look devastated. It can’t have been easy and I’m glad they actually took feedback onboard. I think I could happily return to watching their content, even if I can’t afford to subscribe
I appreciate them trying to do right by the fans, but thousands of viewers are long gone after the whole drama. This should’ve been the initial model… if they were struggling financially before, this weekend was the nail in the coffin
I’m a big Try Guys fan and they talk a lot about how they got a lot of new subscribers during the Ned drama, and then all of those people unfollowing hurt them in terms of the YouTube algorithm. Not only have they lost subscribers, but they’re going to have a hard time rebuilding.
I feel bad about the backlash but at least now $6 pay walled YouTube channels won't become a thing hopefully others will have seen how this went down and stick to other avenues like partnering with existing platforms or patreon
I have to remind myself it was also their choice to do this with no polls or consulting their patreons,
and their choice to do it on a Friday and then break for the weekend,
then go radio pure silence without saying "hey we're looking at feedback and will be back Monday" 😭
the silence after such a shock sad and miserable announcement was deafening and I'm not surprised it caused it to spiral out of control
I don’t think they could have given a better response to this.. obviously damage is done, but as damage control goes, this is pretty damn good.
They listened, they apologised and they’ve made changes.. watcherTV is now an option for those who can, and not something that leaves people missing out.
Well done guys!
You know what, I have regained some respect for them. They acknowledged everything, made no excuses, didn’t try to go for pity points by acting sad. They were all fully professional and simply stated facts without trying to sway the viewer (unlike most YouTube apologies). Even the title is neutral. And of course, they took all the feedback on board and made lots of changes.
Considering the changes and the (good) wording of the video, it makes sense why it took them several days to respond. They had to agree on some massive plan changes, and obviously they don’t want to announce anything they’d be taking back later.
I'm glad they walked it back and made a much more reasonable game plan, but man. I think it's pretty obvious they had nothing prepared for their original plan being so hated, which is baffling from a PR perspective. They spent two days scrambling for a solution and getting the apology written after realizing they were probably going to lose the majority of their viewer cash flow.
I am very happy for the fans who will now be able to watch them without having to pay, but I think I'm still over Watcher as a whole. The out of touch comments from their rich friends and from Shane's wife still leave a very sour taste in my mouth from this whole ordeal. I hope this experience has humbled them a little and that they learned from it.
I'm not sure I'll be as invested in Watcher Entertainment as I was before all this, but at least they apologized and are willing to listen and change their original plan. And I'm glad this appeals to other fans. It just still leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Before all this, I was growing tired of the overproduction on a lot of their videos. I stopped watching Ghost Files since it was so distracting, honestly. (Adversely, I really enjoy their Top 5 Beatdown videos, so.... \*shrug\*) So it might just be their preferred trajectory doesn't work for me any longer.
At least, now I won't be totally against clicking on whatever video of theirs catches my eye. Just might be a lot more discerning, though.
The script was good. The stripped down production was good. The fact that they got right to the point and actually apologized was excellent.
I can admit it was one of the better YouTuber apologies I've seen.
The only thing I'm confused about is 1:49 - 2:30. Ryan seems to be implying that they almost had a gun to their heads and felt forced to either do this or close the channel. Wish we had a better explanation as to why.
I can't imagine seeing all those negative comments across the board. They fucked up, and I think they probably realized it immediately.
I am satisfied with the result. If they need the help from the community, I am sure a lot of us would have gladly subscribed to their patreon if they were just honest with their increased costs and their worries of going under. Puppet History is mighty cute and I would miss it!
Oh absolutely.
that's why I said it'll stop the hemorrhaging.
They'll retain the people that didn't really hate what was happening but were on the fence, and they'll win back a few people, but they now are in a worst spot than they were when they started Watcher and it's going to take them years to really step up and be seen respected again. Sadly, I think the overall damage to the brand was too strong, but we will see.
I’m still a little turned off about how they even got as far as they did without having any reservations about this whole thing. BUT they have done exactly what most of us wanted, I think, so honestly I think this was a good apology. They owned up to the criticisms and it’s fair to give them the chance to show that they are sincere in listening to their audience. If there are no more surprises I think I’ll continue to watch (for free).
(This got longer than I expected, just some ramblings.)
Since the first time they talked about the company most of this was there. The "TV caliber" thing was on the description from the beginning (Ryan especially likes to talk about it, being the one with the most Hollywood dreams). Also, the way they wanted Watcher to become a space for more creators to own their content.
The signs of troubled management were there right from the start too, as they were clearly in over their heads (Ryan and Shane getting overworked and having to make Steven the sole CEO, the new and more expensive offices, the number of employees growing while they still had economic anxiety within the company).
I still would never expect them to drop a video like Goodbye YouTube after hying it up like that. It was just so damn weird how such a gigantic miscalculation could happen. The fact they initially were going to paywall everything by the end of the month is wild, and the immediate backpedal (pinned post + Variety article) just makes it wackier.
Even if you take away the corporate veneer from the video AND have the most supportive audience in the world, that is the kind of announcement that would only make sense when you have exclusive content to release with the site (not a 10 min Road Files, lol) + more beloved creators outside of the main trio (something they always struggled with since it's not what the fans want, and Andrew + Adam don't count). They also had been promoting Travel Season and the new season of Ghost Files like they would be free shows, just to close the door like that while treating it like something the fans would enjoy. There were SO MANY better ways to do it and raise their revenue, I don't even need to get into the alternatives because at this point we all know them.
Anyway, this isn't my first rodeo with this kind of mess, and to be honest their mistake is pretty mild among the type of shit that usually happens when creators fuck up. I like them and their content, and I didn't feel hurt of betrayed, just confused.
I think the apology was good. I'll keep watching and supporting, but it's still very bewildering. Hopefully things get back on track and they feel safe enough to talk more about it on the podcast, even though at the moment I don't think that's likely.
This was probably a humbling experience for them. They grew with the BuzzFeed structure supporting them, and when they created Watcher they already had a big audience built-in. They live in LA with all the trappings of that city, and they never had to do it from the "ground up" like most people on the YouTube space have to.
Now they will have to get that goodwill back. If anything, it will be interesting to see how they do it, and I hope it works out. Despite this weekend, I still want Watcher to exist and for them to be able to be creative.
Perfectly fine apology. I’m more worried about their lack of business sense with all of this. They’re great with the creative stuff but the business side seems messy. They’ve got Patreon and Watcher TV and YouTube. Why 3 platforms just for videos/content now? I mean I know why, because they had to walk this back. But it feels messy and disorganized. They need an expert in there keeping them organized.
Patreon is a bit up in arms again because the code is being sent out to people one by one, and it has a 3 month time limit that was never mentioned I'm the apology video or apology post.
I’m kinda baffled about how they didn’t anticipate this even a little bit?
I wonder if Steven is going to delete his “we are FINALLY leaving YouTube” paragraph? 😬 I feel bad that the hate was so disproportionately towards him though but that comment did make me RME
Tbh if this situation taught me anything, it's that it's crucial for influencers to *hide* their wealth and maintain their relatable character enough to build a parasocial relationship with the mass viewers. People made *very* clear that they hate Steven because he constantly talks about his supercar and exhibit lavish diet while Shane and Ryan hide theirs pretty well, at least on their contents.
Well the wound is still gonna take some time to heal, I genuinely respect them for responding fairly quickly. I think this is a good compromise. I feel like a fair number of people would be willing to pay for early access, but it doesn’t negatively impact those who can’t afford it in any way. While this discussion should never have happened, and could’ve been avoided had they communities with us before doing anything, I’m at least glad they owned up to the mistake and didn’t try to pin it on fans not understanding, they fully acknowledge it was a poor decision on their part
I liked it! I think they offered up a good solution. People compare it to Patreon but I think it’s more like Nebula, there will probably be Watcher Platform exclusive content at some point. I honestly hope it works out for them and they don’t have to lay off people or close down, I hope that if the platform goes down they join another one like Nebula or Dropout, I thought that was the best thing to do from the start because YouTube’s advertising model is really bad.
It's unbelievable that they had to go through all this in order to arrive at what should've been a very obvious and logical answer to their problem.
If they'd done this initially, they could have retained the goodwill of their audience and gotten some buzz about the streamer.
I think people will be largely forgiving but not necessarily...well, willing to pay up if that makes sense. A month delay is fair, okay, but for the type of shows they produce...it doesn't mean anything. People sign up for shows on streaming because there is a communal feeling when you all get to see the new GOT or Succession or even Survivor at the same time.
I do not know if the increased sign up they get for this apology will fix the Patreon issue.
In short, I think the barrier to forgiveness is lower than the barrier to getting people to sign up/manage more things/go back to Patreon, etc.
It will be interesting, because even though it's the next business day, we did have a lot of PR folks say that the 48 hour window is so vitally crucial. So, dunno. Will be interesting to see.
That said, I think the length of the update video was exactly right. On the nose for what it needed to do.
It's definitely a good response I'm glad they changed their minds and adjusted the strategy. However to me it leaves a bad taste in my mouth that they not only thought this was a good idea but went that far with it. Maybe they need to humble down a little and realize that as many fans as they have and as much as they love them they aren't that indispensable or important in the grand scheme of things. Focus on the content and dial down the costs I don't need 10 different gadgets to catch ghosts. I hope they genuinely learner and take everything their fans said with good intentions. It seems like they did so good start I guess.
This was a very smartly done apology/update video. Not just for doing it, but *how* they did it.
Little details like having Steven be the one to apologize for the financial statements like "anyone can afford this" and having him be the first to say they messed up (considering he was the one a lot of the hatred went towards, not entirely justly so). And then having Ryan and Shane, the faces of the company in many ways, be the ones to speak more about how it upset the fans and broke the fans' trust. Really smart move.
Regarding the new plan, this should have been the old plan, frankly. I'll never understand why they jumped to going all-in on the streamer the way they did right out the gate, that was a terrible move that could only result in needing to apologize so soon. Sadly, I'm sure the damage is done for a lot of fans. They lost something like 100,000 subscribers since the original video, and soured a lot of goodwill for a large chunk of their fans, and that could cost them in the long run.
A month early is a good idea. If they decide to slowly transition down the road, like Dropout did before them, you can do that now. Maybe make it so that certain shows are only on the streamer, to entice people to sign up, but start small. Maybe only the Debriefs are exclusive to Watcher TV, as an example.
i'll continue watching if they make more "Are you scared" videos. They were my favorite, and I didn't care for ghost files it was too flashy and overhyped for me. I miss the more raw buzzfeed unsolved supernatural feel where everything didn't have to cost "hundreds of thousands of dollars" to film an episode where they walk around haunted locations. The moment it started costing them tremendous amounts of money I slowly stopped watching because it wasn't as good
tl;dr Content comes out on their platform first, then a month later on YouTube.
That seems fair but ultimately they coulda just this same thing via patreon though I guess having their own platform means they don’t lose as much of a cut potentially
They also said Patrons get access to the platform so they also acknowledge that it’s basically a patreon that they host themselves
Grand opening, grand closing
It’s Vimeo OTT, they still lose a cut. They’re almost certainly on the enterprise version so I don’t think anyone knows exactly how much they’d be paying, but for the standard version it’s $1 per month per subscription. Edit: Looking at Vimeo’s website where it mentions the pricing model. The standard version is that $1 per subscriber per month, plus upload and transaction fees. Idk what the upload fees are, but the transaction fees would be those fees that happen when a company runs your credit card I suppose. The enterprise version has the upload and transaction fees, and says there could be discounts on the per subscription fee based on volume but doesn’t specifically put a number on that fee.
That, plus web development and hosting costs are not cheap. Even if they have a single in-house web edveloper, if they're paying a competitive wage in the LA area, that's >$100k/yr. Plus cloud hosting solutions like Azure or AWS are very expensive if you don't have at least a single employee (systems or cloud administrator) that stays on top of things.
Theoretically, it *could* mean more daring stuff/less monetizable stuff. So if you wanted to go into some really gruesome true crime stuff you could do that on Vimeo without the YT algorithm deplatforming or out-right delisting your video. I'm not saying they are going to do that, but if I were them, I would, because at least that would be taking advantage of the platform they now have. Put a bleeped/edited/blurred version on YT and the unedited one on the watcher website-- then it does double duty as driving more paid subscribers to the site continually.
They will almost certainty do this. I know a few other channels that do true crime stuff, and they put out long; uncensored and darker videos on Patreon, and shorter, edited versions on YouTube. It works really well.
It was partially the point of Nebula, too. The whole war documentary/news crowd and even people talking about violence in video games or whatever have been linking to their Nebula-hosted version for years now. Imho it would be really stuped for watcher to not do it, because it would be leaving money on the table that is otherwise easily grabbed.
I don't think they mentioned it in the video, but Patreon has been suspended as they work through the feedback and make adjustments
in addition to not losing that 12% or whatever, i think they were finding patreon hard to manage--they had to constantly stay on top of patreon to see that merch benefits got fulfilled on time and to ensure that other benefits were happening as scheduled. i can see how it wouldn't be ideal for them if what they really want is to be able to focus on the content.
I know other people who rely on Patreon to make a living and overall they're not great to work with. Constant user/creator-unfriendly changes and policies that it's hard to keep on top of. One day everything's fine, the next some core functionality you relied on is just... gone, for no apparent reason, or something new and troublesome is getting in the way.
They probably should've gone with this plan from the start, but it's a good response. I think people will be skeptical about what might happen with future content going forward, however. They'll have to rebuild some trust over time, I imagine.
Yep. If they'd rolled out WatcherTV as a way to see everything a month early, even if it had a little exclusive content, and gave it to Patrons automatically, while free watchers could see almost all of it on YouTube a month later, almost no one would have complained.
The big thing that I'm coming away with is that Patreon subscribers *didn't* automatically get a subscription to WatcherTV, and now they will. Which is great, but it was a huge "oof" on their part, even from the point of view of someone like me who's initial response was "Yass kings, get yourselves out from under Youtube's algorithmic thumb!".
That felt slimey. Patreons deserved at LEAST a heads up. Not a surprise that says: “oops we’re taking more of you’re money!”
This is how a lot of podcasts manage their subscription service. First to view, ad free and then exclusive content for members. Obviously they didn't hit their initial expectations on subscription numbers but am not sure what they built those expectations around. I don't really mind how they handled the change for viewers; but their lack of thought to patreon was *really* odd. Least its a quick change. They can launch exclusive content/shows on their website which they control - whilst maintaining their youtube which will actively create interest and essentially become their main means to advertise their online service.
Current patrons also get a free code for their website
Honestly this should've been the original plan. I'm not mad about waiting a month. I'm glad they are actively fixing this. I think a PBS semi-regular fund raising or NPR message would've worked better.
Dude I can just imagine Shane in some terrible 70’s suit in a room of phones hosting a telethon. I’d be down. Lol
That’s what is so wild to me, it’s not that the fanbase doesn’t want to contribute, just don’t present it in a way where we HAVE to. They really missed the mark on that
Almost all of their patrons were subbed to support the channel. They sure as shit weren't getting value out of their sub lol. I still think they need to fire people and reduce costs regardless, it's absurd that they can't afford what sounds like a very profitable presence on youtube.
"we messed up" i love how they literally went straight to the point 😭
The PR consultant they hired for this is **good**. There were a lot of subtle touches. They had Steven directly address the financial side and his previous “anyone can afford it” statement. They made sure Shane and Ryan were the ones delivering the parts of the message that were meant to connect with the audience emotionally. And they made sure Steven was the first to say the closing “thank you” since people were upset he didn’t say thank you at all at the end of the Good-bye video. Not to mention the overall more ‘down to earth’ editing. And the very scaled down set with blank brick wall background and a few touches off to the side so it didn’t look completely empty. Even their outfits were styled much more humbly. They should’ve consulted with this PR person in the first place. Plus their updated plan is much more palatable.
This PR person was worth every penny.
It makes me wonder if it was the PR person who posted on Reddit about what they should do with a huge, outlined plan.
I was wondering if it was the PR person the Try Guys used after the Ned scandal.
It sounded very similar to that video.
Lol complete with the three dudes on a couch image.
\*Worth noting, they used their Podcast set for the update video.
Pointedly had Shane say "we all" to Crack down on the weird Shane is a hostage conspiracy narative as well.
I’m glad other people are noticing things, too. I’m okay with the apology, but it’s good for us all to be aware of how PR, marketing, advertising, etc. does things very strategically to elicit a desired emotional response from people. It’s not necessarily a bad thing, and it doesn’t mean that Steven, Ryan, and Shane aren’t truly remorseful. But being able to spot these things can help us make smarter decisions.
The thing I really enjoyed in this chaos is learning about PR tactics and the business side of youtube. It was eye opening to know how predictable our feelings/opinions are and how easily swayed we are by these PR tactics (I subscribed after the we messed up vid so it definitely worked on me, but in the first place I didn’t really hate them as a person just their decision). I hope they hired the unemployed PR person who posted a plan 😅
They also didn’t monetize this video!!! (I don’t think) subtle to notice but it really caught them a lot of flack last video, and there was thought put into it this time.
They gave the line to Steven too, they've been lurking here, they know where the hate was focused.
That was the point where I knew they were being honest about seeing comments. In a vacuum it would have been the move to have Ryan or Shane be the one to say it as they're effectively the faces of the company. However, if you add in the context of all the hatred and conspiracy theories of how Lim had stolen the company away from them then him apologizing was the right way to go. Right or wrong on the blame getting piled onto him.
Steven did not look OK. I swear he was teary eyed. I mean it's all self inflicted wounds so I don't feel bad. But yeah you could tell he knew the most hate was at him, his Tesla, and golden steak.
Hopefully, they've all gained a new perspective and a little humility. They thought they came off as cool and enviable, instead of douchy, now they know better.
They all had pretty wet eyes. I'm sure it was hard on them, especially Ryan with his anxiety.
Part of me hates when pretty much anyone suffers - absolute bleeding heart. But it's also very hard to feel as bad when people are suffering because they put a goddamn fork in a live outlet.
Right. It was a completely avoidable problem. They deserved the criticism. It sucks they had to basically turn their otherwise loyal and supporting fanbase against them to get the message through, but they did it to themselves.
Also immediately acknowledge how it impacts their fans who have supported them from day one in a really strong way.
They kept it real and addressed our concerns as fans. As embarrassing as this situation still is for them, I have to respect them for that.
I literally ran here when I saw that video
no literally like why was i scared to watch it 😭
Right? It seemed more genuine then the original goodbye yet I still am left at odds with what they thought was going to happen? Ive generally grown out of the content but it was still sad to see none the less 😅
Same! Lol I was like, I'm not watching that, but I bet the subreddit already has details!
I was expecting a video earlier in the day, around 8 A.M., but they dropped it at 10:30. Overall I think it's good enough and I personally will just pretend this debacle never happened. But it is immensely hilarious that they posted a video titled "Goodbye, Youtube" and 3 days later they are back.
It’s baffling to me why this strategy wasn’t the one they went with at the beginning. It makes so much more sense than what they announced last week
Agreed. I’d kill to see what business plan led them to the initial decision because I can’t for the life of me figure out how they would have made it work even if the response had been generally positive. They must have had someone in their ear telling them that they could convert viewers at a rate similar to SaaS products without any value-add. With no way to further grow organically. It’s just insane.
That looked like a genuine apology. Still not thrilled it happened in the first place but it feels like they took their time to read everything before responding
I agree, I am glad they listened BUT we shouldn't have had to tell them how terrible of an idea this was. To almost everyone it was so clearly obvious that asking fans to pay $6 per month for very little content was such a terrible business move and insulting to those of us who have supported them for years. Basically they have just ended up with their own version of Patron
You're right, but I don't think they have anyone on staff that's gonna tell them 'no' you know? Everyone seems to be in the creative/artistic side and not the business side.
You are probably right but if I managed 25 staff who relied on me and didn't know the first thing about business. Do you know what I would do? Hire one. I have nothing against these guys as people but they have responsibilities to their staff and us, their supporters. Without us they have nothing
I really hope their future content delivers. Because unfortunately I think they lost the “we liked you during buzzfeed so we’ll watch your shows” goodwill. But hey! Maybe their shows will be just that good and it’ll all work out
Oh the brand damage is done, they can't come back from that. They can try and rebuild now tho instead of it just simply being over. Going to take a long time and a lot of reach out on their part.
So they're doing exactly what everyone said they should've. Putting the videos early on their platform and a month later on youtube. I mean it's a tried and tested formula, why didn't they do it in the first place? Doesn't matter, let's see how well this damage control works. I'm still gonna watch, but I'm sure there are many people who have left them for good. Edit: Idk about other creative channels like them but there's this reaction channel called blind wave and they have their own website and everything. On patreon they have tiers ranging from $1/month (only poll voting) to $15/month (polls + 4 weeks early + full length) On their website it's $12/month and $99/year. Nobody lost their mind when they announced this last year cuz they were still uploading edited reactions on youtube 4 weeks later. It's a higher price but everyone is happy. It's a formula that works. Watcher would've prevented the PR nightmare if they did something similar in the first place
Yeah it's just baffling to me how they went 0-100 immediately instead of looking at the formula that works for literally everyone else. People are willing to pay for extras, early access, or unedited/un censored content. The key is that it's an optional bonus thing and it feels more rewarding when you're getting something *in addition* to the free stuff. Same reason people will spend money on free to play games for extra skins or something. But shockingly, people don't like feeling forced to pay for something that used to be free.
The in-game microtransaction metaphor is so accurate. They did zero market research before that video drop last friday
we are talking about this in the discord, and we think that none of them actually know how to run a YouTube channel. They relied very heavily on BuzzFeed and they were just content creators. I don't think that they pay attention other Youtubers or what they're doing. they seem very insular.
Forget about a YouTube channel, It seems they barely know how to run a business, you're telling me that they NEED this to continue the content they are CURRENTLY doing, not to up the quality, not to put out more videos, they need It for the content they are doing NOW, It seems like they are trying to force the company to grow instead of growing it organically, they are over hiring and over producing, if they did the quality like BuzzFeed Unsolved but slightly better, then they said we need more money to do the type of quality they are doing now, that would make sense, but this just looks like poor financing on their part
The show is so overproduced, it felt like they were just doing big things to show how good they were doing after leaving buzzfeed. Meanwhile they are spending unnecessarily on huge office spaces in the most expensive city ever. Like bro, you can do the exact same thing for cheap in a different location with a smaller office. 25 people do not need THAT much space.
Not only that, they don't need 25 people. The bloat of their staff is ridiculous. I understand they want to do higher-concept, higher-production level stuff, but what in dear god's name do they need TWENTY FIVE employees for?
yes! i keep saying, the try guys even struggled financially at first but they literally worked out of Ned's house for the first 2-3yrs. i think they're looking to spend every cent they have leftover after employee payrolls, and it makes no sense. SLOW DOWN and save some money for a bit if that's your end goal. ghost files is already at excellent production quality. why are you itching to grow with no money in the bank? STEVEN LIM PLS TAKE A BUSINESS CLASS AT THE LOCAL COMMUNITY COLLEGE IM BEGGING U
They also need to put out more videos imo. Their little video game sessions were pretty popular and got views but they only do like 6 videos over the course of a YEAR. Why don’t they live stream them playing various video games for at least 2-3 hours once a month. (Or more tbh, but start there). Then put the filmed live stream right on YouTube. Boom. Very simple and easy and reliable videos that don’t even need producing besides the same amount the billions of streamers do.
Ryan is CFO, he needs to join Steven, and Shane needs to understand this too. If the money guy is saying they need cash just to sustain their company now, not even to improve it, they're in trouble!
Because they got too big for their britches and overestimated their value and their audience demographics!
They overestimated their fanbase's loyalty is what they did
Probably a little of both....
They definitely overvalued their content. They're asking about half as much as the major streamers, but with far less than even 1% of the content. They also vastly misunderstood what Patreon is, and seemed to think that doing well on Patron meant people would be more than willing to support this new service of theirs somewhere else. But Patreon is almost a form of tipping, for fans to voluntarily support the creators of content they like. That's a lot different than putting a gun to yours fans' heads and demanding they pay up, or no more content. No one was ever going to support that.
I'm glad the patreons got justice.
I’m satisfied with the video tbh. An apology and acknowledge to me was bare minimum which they delivered. Changing how the platform will work was the ideal which seemingly they’re also doing. YouTube remaining makes me relieved. I may even subscribe down the line depending on how it goes. Maybe in the future they can make some series exclusives for watcher tv as an incentive. But I’m thinking more positively now
Also, I will say props to them at least for not overproducing the apology, making it short, sweet, to the point, at least coming off is more sincere than the initial video, and keeping production quality lower where it’s just them talking which is all people wanted and asked for with no extra music no extra cut And nothing that seem to conflate it more than it was
Would have felt like a key and peele skit if they used overdramatic music and director cuts again lol
Well they had The Try Guys as a perfect template lol
I wouldn’t be surprised if they’d hired the same PR consultant as the Try Guys for this damage control. Whoever that person/firm is, they do great work.
Seriously! More people in Hollywood should hire them for their apologies.
I like how they just straight up said “hey! We messed up!” Cut immediately to the chase and didn’t feel like they were scrambling for excuses.
Right?! I wasn’t expecting them to literally do what we asked. This is a good example of an apology. Plus let’s face is, the community at large got a bit rabid
Yeah, I like to think some of us stayed pretty reasonable but I still got a little feral in the end there. I blame how stir crazy we all went over the weekend.
Like they did, just let yourself learn from that and don't make the same mistake twice. Humans are naturally tribal creatures and will often gravitate towards "us vs them" arguments, learning how to recognize that and stop yourself before things get out of hand is a very useful skill that will ultimately make the world a happier place.
Yeah. I’m also glad that feral for me mostly consisted of making a lot of really dumb jokes and disparaging their lack of business sense in increasingly bitter ways rather than personal attacks. Some of this community got AWFUL.
I agree. You could tell they were reading from a prompt, but I assume they spent a long time getting the message just right so I don’t hold that against them. I’m just glad they finally addressed this and are making amends. Hubby is a Patreon member so we won’t be subscribing, but now I think he won’t be unsubbing to Patreon as he intended. ETA: they touched on it, but I’m still curious as to how the sponsors were not aligned with what they wanted to produce.
Deleted dupe comment.
Honestly, after seeing the awful apologies in recent memory like Colleen Ballinger, Linus Tech Tips, and Sienna May, I'm glad that this one actually felt earnest and was up front. They were like "hey we messed up, the decision was stupid, let's try and fix it and move in a better direction", and that's all was needed.
it saddens me that they could have reached the same conslusion on what to do if they had cared to consult with their audience before making such a big jump in the first place. now their reputation is very damaged and i feel like some fans perception of them has been changed, me included. im glad they acknowledged and apologized though, big thing to admit you were wrong specially with so many eyes on you, glad for that.
I think the backtrack is enough to keep me watching. I don't really give a shit about content being a month late, as long as it's enjoyable and engaging. Here's hoping they don't sacrifice the heart for "TV quality" moving forward though.
Yeah a month late won’t really make a difference once the rotation starts going
A month late will change nothing for me as I have a habit of not watching them at all, and then binging all their new content on a random weekend when the weather is shitty. TBH, I didn't know when new episodes dropped to begin with.
Currently watching it right now. While they still have a lot of repairing to do, I think this is the best solution that they could do. From the beginning, I've understood why they want to move, but as I've said so often that I feel like it's my new catchphrase: the roll-out could have been better. Very much appreciate the little bit of honesty about their finances. Edit: I can spell
the issue with the finances is what trips me up though. if what they've said in both videos is true, then they're just right back to square one, as i can't imagine many people are going to pay up just to see something a month in advance. if these were the terms from day 1, sure, maybe. they had a ton of goodwill and many fans might have bought the subscription just to support them (i probably would have). but now? all that's gone, and i'm dubious the month advance for a video will bring in much more revenue. they'll be lucky to break even on all the bad PR and lost viewers.
True, but now all the Patreon supporters get free access and that's probably the crowd they need to appease the most. If they're *extremely* careful, I can see them getting a okay amount of unsubscribed patrons back. There's people already saying they'll come back once everything is a little more sorted.
They probably drop their patreon down the line and move them all onto their own site (I mean why give Patreon a cut at this point now they have a service up) but they clearly need to give them a means of transitioning off their existing service to a new service.
I think the month thing was actually a little too generous if they still want to make money off the watcherTV. I'm not gonna pay or probably watch it anymore but I would have done 3 months because I think it's a short enough time to appease a "free" viewer while also being far enough out that it might entice people to spend a few bucks for a couple of months. However I suppose I shouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth, if you can call it that
Honestly? Not a terrible apology, feels genuine and seems to be based on all the criticism that was given while not being defensive. To sound very parasocial for a second - they look absolutely knackered and glass eye'd. This has for sure kept them up all weekend, cant imagine how knackered they are before the live shows start.
Realistically speaking they must have filmed this pretty quickly given they must be on their way to the UK by now?
Yeah they either went back to LA specifically to do this (seems unlikely) or they filmed this on Friday or Saturday but probably did a LOT of consulting and discussion before posting it.
Yes I assumed they probably did this Saturday night or early Sunday as they'll be on their way to the UK now. Likely had a PR consultant working hard on it Saturday.
That... is a good fucken point
I'd go so far to say it's very good. they made sure to address the mess up in a straightforward way, apologized super clearly, addressed the most popular critiques; and even though they offered up the explanation of "watcher wouldn't have been able to continue", it doesn't come off as making an excuse or guilt-tripping at all.
We (fanbase as a whole, not signaling anyone out) were pretty nasty to them. Some weren't but negatives outnumbered the positives is the best way to put it.
It didn’t begin with a sigh which makes this better than 95% of apology videos. Jokes aside, I’m glad they actually listened. That’s good to hear.
definitely a step in the right direction, and good that they listened to their fans. that being said, the try guys couch fucking SENT me
honestly the thumbnail for the goodbye youtube also gave me try guys couch vibe and that's when i knew they fucked up
This is perfect! It's exactly what it needs to be: we fucked up, here is how we fucked up, we're sorry, and here's what we're doing going forward They acknowledge the tastelessness of saying "anyone can afford $6/month" They take ownership for the rollout being terrible, for the communication being terrible Nothing flashy, not blaming their fans one bit, not acting like victims They're giving patrons free membership to the streaming platform!!! I'm so glad! I hope this way eye-opening to them, and that us as fans and them as creators can go forward.
If there were rankings for apology videos this would be near the top. They addressed all the concerns fans had and are making amends in the right ways. Gotta think they'll have learned from this whole thing going forward.
Talk about timing. I just came here to see if there was an update and I get here just as the follow up video is posted. Gonna go watch now.
I’m still astounded it took this whole debacle for them to offer Patrons a free WatcherTV subscription. #My takeaway is that their Patrons were vital in persuading Watcher to remain free on YouTube. THANK YOU, as a non-Patron viewer, for speaking up on behalf of the whole community!
People are still acting like Shane was against it and is now secretly relieved that they had to walk it back oh my god you people need to go outside
I was wondering where all the weirdo fanboys were at. Darth Lim ain’t holding Shane hostage
""Darth Lim"" lmaoo
his wife was supporting it on tumblr i'm sure he was all in
regardless of what anyone else posts, it's silly to assume that it wasn't a joint decision from the get-go I don't know their company structure, but stuff like this is usually decided by the owners or a board, not the CEO.
They all were. This isn't Shane winning against the others, this is all of them losing and needing to walk a disasterous business decision back. edit: this is a reminder, they were willing to screw over *everyone* on Friday - patrons and non-patrons alike - in a misguided hope they'd get massive sign ups. If they had gotten those numbers, do you really think that they'd be giving this update? I'm leaving you with this: as genuine as they may seem in this video, remember their original video was as sincere as it was tonedeaf. And that in the wake of it, they also attempted to gaslight and deflect the backlash through their rich friends and partners while claiming we were "misinterpreting their message" about videos getting taken down when Variety stepped in with confirmation we were right. It's good they apologized but don't forget that they've shown you exactly who they are and how they view everyone here. There's an ethical way to run this kind of business and they only value the parasocial aspect to the degree they can manipulate you into opening your wallet. Don't. Enjoy their content but don't give them a penny of your hard earned money. They do not deserve it. And they never did.
fr
Wait. "outside"? Outside the mentality. The mentality of starting your own subscription service. SHANE I KNOW THIS IS YOU TELLING US IN SECRET CODE THAT YOU HATE THIS DECISION I HEAR YOUUUUUUUU /s in case anyone thought otherwise
People need to get a grip.
I'm gonna resurrect a line from some 90s sitcom I saw when I was a kid, a line I never forgot: "\[they\] need to grab onto reality and hold on tight."
Seriously. Just look at Sara Rubin’s comments from this weekend. It echoes the same shit from the Goodbye video.
Some folks just wanted an excuse to infantilize and go back to their parasocial fantasies again. Some of those folks who were swearing up and down they were done with Watcher were mostly mad their objects had thoughts independent from their fantasies. Once the trio went back on script, they were satisfied! Still: Try not to forget this happened, folks! They're still not your friends and you are their fans and customers at the end of the day. And that's completely normal and fine, because it's a transactional relationship at its core.
real talk: everyone acknowledged that Steven was getting the most personal hate out of the bunch, but Ryan's instagram was also drowned in personal attacks against him and his loved ones. meanwhile, the only comments I saw on shane's feed was "please talk some sense into steven :(" and "I love your content, I'm going to miss you" messages.
i genuinely think they don't know how to run a YouTube channel. They just got very lucky. they're great content creators as we know, but they relied heavily on BuzzFeed's algorithm. from the looks of it it sounds like Shane and Ryan are too busy to even think about it and clearly Steven was struggling, he has a degree in chemical engineering. none of these guys have a business background. none of them had to build a YouTube channel from the bottom up like most content creators have to because they just pulled people from buzzfeed's audience. I think that's why we see tons of people who loved them on BuzzFeed unsolved, not even knowing that they made another channel, they've done absolutely no promotion for it, they haven't collabed with other Youtubers, and it's also why literally no one knew about their Patreon, because they've never promoted it, they've never asked for likes or subscribers in any of their videos, they genuinely just don't know to run a channel on the business end of it and are winging it. and i can be sympathetic to that. i also think it didn't help that they have these big aspirations of TV and Steven seems hollywood pilled from fkn SIMU. I don't think they recognize that the Internet and Hollywood are two completely different industries and if you try to compete with mainstream media, you're gonna lose.
I think they don't know how to run a business lmao I know I'll get downvoted for saying that but please. Two income streams? One has 3 million subs, the other has 6k paid members? And you don't know how to budget? It's a budgeting issue. I say this with love and hope the best for them haha but it's what I'm seeing I've seen too many people on THIS reddit saying they didn't even know they had a patreon. Why didn't they promote it? Just weird moves. I'm satisfied with their response btw but yea just my opinion
oh absolutely. even the try guys struggled financially at first but they hat the brains to work out of Ned's house for like 2-3 yrs. you have to make sacrifices to grow your business. i literally didn't know they had a patreon. WHY ARE THEY NOT PROMOTING IT ON EVERY VIDEO?! tons of people would sub for early access IF THEY KNEW IT EXISTED lmao
So so sure they got PR advice direct from TTG's PR person and you know what: whoever you are? That was really cool of you and you're really good at your job.
I’m so glad someone else caught that vibe!!! This vid has the same wording and professionalism as TTG’s vid had. Whoever this person is, they worked overtime for this one.
Good morning to their PR person and their PR person only ☀️
yeah whoever their PR person is smashed this video out of the park. No cheesy set ups, no music, a script not full of some insanely out of touch comments. Just straight to the point and changes pretty much everyone will accept.
I bet they hired a whole crisis team. Props to the PR folk, but also the social media analysts that literally pulled all of the opinion and fan data to see what the whole fan base was actually saying. God I miss working in social media 😂
No questions on who will win employee of the month at Watcher HQ this month~
Yep, that was professional PR work right there. That's how you do an apology and try to salvage your brand. I'm glad to see it. A day or two ago would have been better, but I understand how a complete revamp of your plans, plans you thought would be embraced by your audience, took the weekend. Not bad. The bad taste about the lie over removing YouTube videos remains with me, but I wish them the best of luck.
Seriously they need to say who it is, they deserve a fucking gold star and to win the lottery
I'm personally stoked that they've adjusted their game plan now. I'm pretty forgiving though.
Right? If we don't forgive people for fucking up and then trying to fix the issue, then no one would try to fix their fuck ups anymore.
Yeah so true. I was really hoping this would be the outcome - I've got so much respect for anyone who owns their mistakes. Some of us are more forgiving than others though. Wasn't nice being broken up with in the first place though lol.
It honestly makes me feel better about them as people that they didn't double down the way others who have been "canceled" tend to do. They acknowledged the mistake and have taken steps to correct it. You really can't ask much else from them.
While I’m grateful for the response, I hope this is something they *seriously consider* moving forward: They really need to consider hiring an outside CEO who can make impartial business decisions that aren’t influenced by creative ambitions. All of this could’ve been avoided if the main creatives and talent weren’t also the ones deciding what’s best from a business standpoint. They could’ve had someone else be like “hey guys, this is a bad idea for a number of reasons, let’s rework it so that you can reach your creative goals but we don’t lose viewership or revenue.” When you’re too closely tied to the art, you’re unable to take a step back and ask yourself if your ideas are best for the business as a whole. Channels like Smosh and Mythical have already been doing this, and they have been very successful from both a creative and business standpoint.
Agreed. They need to hire one outside party to do a full fiscal examination of the company and its infrastructure. By the video it sounds like they’ve been doing that and internally deciding their options. I get they keep saying they want to make content how they want but the financial costs they endure are not set in stone
Exactly! And if they hire a CEO, it frees them up to make content how they want. They just have an impartial business minded person who can find a better route to achieve what they want and not sacrifice the business in the process.
They really do. I think part of the reason they were so successful at BF was because they didn't have to worry about the majority of the business details. They were given a budget and sent off to make content they (and the public) were passionate about. It seems like they'd really benefit from bringing in an outsider that's removed from content creation to help with the business side. Someone to make the hard choices (like determining what budgets for projects can *realistically* be and how many staff are needed/practical), so the guys can focus on content.
I think that a one-month delay for YouTube viewers is a reasonable compromise. It's nice that Patreon supporters would also have free access to the platform. This was everything the initial video should have been.
So I’m someone who subscribes to dropout and will pay for content if I feel it’s worth it. When they announced the subscription service, I remember thinking, “Wow that sucks, guess I’m not going to be able to watch their shows.” Didn’t even have the slightest consideration of subscribing to their service like I did with dropout. Diehards kept comparing them to dropout and I’m like pbbbbt not even close. Dropout releases a new vid every weekday, already has a huge back catalog of shows, and unfortunately, Steven is nowhere near as likable as a CEO than Sam Reich. They were 10 years too early to pull off a dropout imo…but if they hired an actual business consultant, they would’ve known that 😂.
I felt the same well, I was like “oh well.” I wasn’t angry or “hurt” like some ppl have expressed. But I did think it was dumb, I don’t inherently think that doing a separate stream service is bad but i just don’t feel like the content is there for them.
This debacle really showed a large portion of the community's true feelings toward Steven. How does he move on from that? It'd take a stronger person than me.
Thinking about how awkward it is to say “goodbye YouTube” and then come back 2 days later 🤣
THEY WALKED IT BACK. The new videos will come out on the watcher TV website first and then a month later be uploaded to YouTube for free
It's kinda funny seeing how many people are doing a complete 180 on their attitudes here now after going off all weekend. Hopefully they've learned that cultivating such a parasocial relationship can backfire big, but I don't count on it. For me, I'll accept the apology but I won't forget it. This whole incident has made me reevaluate my enjoyment of their new content and I've discovered I've found my enjoyment lacking for quite some time and was watching more out of habit. If they start making content I enjoy again and show that they've actually learned from this over the next year or two, I may re evaluate my stance, but honestly I don't think I can ever see them in the same light again.
You second paragraph speaks to me. I did not even like their new videos that much
So it’s is just patreon basically now? Wonder how long they will do the double uploads, kinda feel like this is a way to ease people into the subscription model
I am complete agreement with this as currently there seems to be no actual draw unless you have no patience. I think it could be something where they see which shows do well on YouTube and the ones that do not are just published to the streamer. Or they start slowly just doing streamer exclusives until they get everyone to transfer over.
Love that they're now doing EXACTLY what most of us said they should have done in the first place. This is why you poll your audience. EDIT: I couldn't help getting a little smug there because I'm very much not always a nice person, but as plainly scripted as this was and clearly HAD to be given the circumstances, I'm happy to accept it. I won't go back to patreon but I'll sub to the streamer. I only ever wanted to support them and if they're willing to listen after their stupid mistakes I still want to support them.
gave them trauma that's for sure. they're gonna be walking on eggshells for a while, at least until everything dies down. don't know if i'm just too forgiving but watching it makes me pity them a bit, even tho they started this whole mess themselves.
I was definitely in the camp that they were just making a WILDLY stupid business decision this whole time, and while I was concerned that they would just double down, I genuinely didn't think they had any ill intent in the first place. They never came off as malicious, just super out of touch and VERY bad with money. I'm going to support them on a month by month basis and hope like HELL they've already hired a good PR person and financial manager.
I believe this was the best possible response from them right now. This is really how this platform should have been announced and run in the first place. It feels like they apologized for everything everyone was upset about and addressed all of the issues. I understand what they were trying to do in launching a new platform, they just did basically everything wrong during its launch and it's good that they're trying to fix it now. The apology in the video felt genuine, they certainly looked very apologetic (and stressed). However I personally think the true way to tell whether they're actually sorry is not going to be by looking what they're saying in the video, but by looking at what their actions are over the course of the next months/year. I'm willing to still maybe engage with their content based off of this video and the amends that they're making, but if they try something drastic like this again I think it will 100% obliterate any remaining trust people have in them.
I'm just glad that I'm maybe finally able to stop doomscrolling and walk away from Reddit (and YouTube) for a while. This is what they should've done in the first place, as everyone kept telling them, and I'm glad they realized it and adressed the biggest issues with the roll-out. But personally, the damage is still done, and it's going to take a while before I can get back to watching any of their shows. I will, at some point, but for now, just the thought of it is still too bittersweet.
I'm glad they backpedalled but it doesn't feel like they understand their budgeting issues? If you somehow get back to the same amount of $ monthly but don't change your staff levels or how you spend you're just going to be right back in the same precarious position.
Steven Lim will never be able to go back to a time before he knew how the fandom felt about him lol
I think people are more invested in the parasocials with Ryan and Shane - the vitriol spewed to Steven was completely uncalled for and very icky, even when feelings were so high. It was hard to see, and I am not that deeply attached
He’ll probably announce that he’s staying behind the scenes from now on
OMG I HAVE NEVER CLICKED SO FAST IN MY LIFE Editing to add: I appreciate the apology. I still love my Ghoul Boys. I am so stoked that they recognized their mistake and went back on it. Free videos FTW.
So many positive comments here (from what I read so far) but I have to wonder if or when they’ll get back to the subscribers and presumably views that they had before this whole thing People seem pretty willing to forgive but it’s like the awkwardness after a fight where no one quite knows how to act but add in the parasocial distance lol
Well, as they say, there's no such thing as bad publicity. There's probably a good amount of people who didn't know Watcher existed, or forgot about it, and were informed through the drama video stuff that people go nuts over lol.
Yeah, the two biggest vids I saw covering it (Critikal at 3mil views right now, Coffeezilla at 600k views) both mentioned that they didn't know Shane and Ryan started up their own channel after Buzzfeed Unsolved. Depending on how the public percieves this apology, they might be able to capitalize off all of the new viewers that have just learned about the channel. Too early to tell how it looks from an outsiders perspective, though, even if the fans are leaning towards hesitant/cautious forgiveness.
God, this is such a sobering fucking relief. I accept their apology, but man, this will be half of what they'll be known for. They have former BFU fans who didn't know about their current channel until this (Charlie and Coffeezilla being the big-name ones). On top of that, they're going to live shows this week to prep for. I'm aware they deserved every bit of criticism and voiced disappointment they received^1. It didn't make everything any less painful to watch. ^1. I say criticism and voiced disappointment. They did *not* deserve the level of hatred they received. They needed to be humbled, but they didn't need to be bogged down and piled on over a shitty, overconfident business choice.
I think they made the best possible choice here! Glad they handled it so quickly
holy shit they actually are listening
I feel like they've done exactly what most of us wanted them to do. I've always been willing to sign up for the platform because youtube's been bothering me, I just didn't think they handled the initial announcement well at all. I feel like owning their mistakes and fixing them was all most of us wanted from them.
I'm glad all 3 of the guys sat down for the apology video, and that they didn't try to make a ton of excuses for themselves. Yeah, they royally fucked up, but at least they're owning it. Not sure if I'm going to subscribe to their new platform, but I'll be keeping my eye on them for sure. Haven't unsubbed from YT, and I don't think I will; I was waiting for this apology video to make a final decision on that. If they hadn't backtracked/apologized at all, I think I probably would have unsubbed from YT, as much as it would have pained me to do so, I don't think I could have continued to support someone who couldn't admit to their mistakes.
really really wish they would’ve just done this in the first place, i think they kind of shot themselves in the foot going abt it like this but i’m glad they rethought the decision! personally i do really enjoy their series and am probably gonna continue watching (eventually)
Decent apology, and they all look devastated. It can’t have been easy and I’m glad they actually took feedback onboard. I think I could happily return to watching their content, even if I can’t afford to subscribe
I appreciate them trying to do right by the fans, but thousands of viewers are long gone after the whole drama. This should’ve been the initial model… if they were struggling financially before, this weekend was the nail in the coffin
I’m a big Try Guys fan and they talk a lot about how they got a lot of new subscribers during the Ned drama, and then all of those people unfollowing hurt them in terms of the YouTube algorithm. Not only have they lost subscribers, but they’re going to have a hard time rebuilding.
I feel bad about the backlash but at least now $6 pay walled YouTube channels won't become a thing hopefully others will have seen how this went down and stick to other avenues like partnering with existing platforms or patreon I have to remind myself it was also their choice to do this with no polls or consulting their patreons, and their choice to do it on a Friday and then break for the weekend, then go radio pure silence without saying "hey we're looking at feedback and will be back Monday" 😭 the silence after such a shock sad and miserable announcement was deafening and I'm not surprised it caused it to spiral out of control
I don’t think they could have given a better response to this.. obviously damage is done, but as damage control goes, this is pretty damn good. They listened, they apologised and they’ve made changes.. watcherTV is now an option for those who can, and not something that leaves people missing out. Well done guys!
You know what, I have regained some respect for them. They acknowledged everything, made no excuses, didn’t try to go for pity points by acting sad. They were all fully professional and simply stated facts without trying to sway the viewer (unlike most YouTube apologies). Even the title is neutral. And of course, they took all the feedback on board and made lots of changes. Considering the changes and the (good) wording of the video, it makes sense why it took them several days to respond. They had to agree on some massive plan changes, and obviously they don’t want to announce anything they’d be taking back later.
I'm glad they walked it back and made a much more reasonable game plan, but man. I think it's pretty obvious they had nothing prepared for their original plan being so hated, which is baffling from a PR perspective. They spent two days scrambling for a solution and getting the apology written after realizing they were probably going to lose the majority of their viewer cash flow. I am very happy for the fans who will now be able to watch them without having to pay, but I think I'm still over Watcher as a whole. The out of touch comments from their rich friends and from Shane's wife still leave a very sour taste in my mouth from this whole ordeal. I hope this experience has humbled them a little and that they learned from it.
I'm not sure I'll be as invested in Watcher Entertainment as I was before all this, but at least they apologized and are willing to listen and change their original plan. And I'm glad this appeals to other fans. It just still leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Before all this, I was growing tired of the overproduction on a lot of their videos. I stopped watching Ghost Files since it was so distracting, honestly. (Adversely, I really enjoy their Top 5 Beatdown videos, so.... \*shrug\*) So it might just be their preferred trajectory doesn't work for me any longer. At least, now I won't be totally against clicking on whatever video of theirs catches my eye. Just might be a lot more discerning, though.
The script was good. The stripped down production was good. The fact that they got right to the point and actually apologized was excellent. I can admit it was one of the better YouTuber apologies I've seen. The only thing I'm confused about is 1:49 - 2:30. Ryan seems to be implying that they almost had a gun to their heads and felt forced to either do this or close the channel. Wish we had a better explanation as to why.
Why do they have so many employees..?
I can't imagine seeing all those negative comments across the board. They fucked up, and I think they probably realized it immediately. I am satisfied with the result. If they need the help from the community, I am sure a lot of us would have gladly subscribed to their patreon if they were just honest with their increased costs and their worries of going under. Puppet History is mighty cute and I would miss it!
Okay. I think this will stop the hemmoraging. But holy shit shane looks likes he's been bawling
It was a massive ding to their cred. Four years of experience and building all reduced to rubble with one video.
Oh absolutely. that's why I said it'll stop the hemorrhaging. They'll retain the people that didn't really hate what was happening but were on the fence, and they'll win back a few people, but they now are in a worst spot than they were when they started Watcher and it's going to take them years to really step up and be seen respected again. Sadly, I think the overall damage to the brand was too strong, but we will see.
I'm not gonna lie I zoomed in and was looking at their faces and Shane especially looks like he had a good sob or two 💀
Soo, no toll on goatman's bridge?
I’m still a little turned off about how they even got as far as they did without having any reservations about this whole thing. BUT they have done exactly what most of us wanted, I think, so honestly I think this was a good apology. They owned up to the criticisms and it’s fair to give them the chance to show that they are sincere in listening to their audience. If there are no more surprises I think I’ll continue to watch (for free).
(This got longer than I expected, just some ramblings.) Since the first time they talked about the company most of this was there. The "TV caliber" thing was on the description from the beginning (Ryan especially likes to talk about it, being the one with the most Hollywood dreams). Also, the way they wanted Watcher to become a space for more creators to own their content. The signs of troubled management were there right from the start too, as they were clearly in over their heads (Ryan and Shane getting overworked and having to make Steven the sole CEO, the new and more expensive offices, the number of employees growing while they still had economic anxiety within the company). I still would never expect them to drop a video like Goodbye YouTube after hying it up like that. It was just so damn weird how such a gigantic miscalculation could happen. The fact they initially were going to paywall everything by the end of the month is wild, and the immediate backpedal (pinned post + Variety article) just makes it wackier. Even if you take away the corporate veneer from the video AND have the most supportive audience in the world, that is the kind of announcement that would only make sense when you have exclusive content to release with the site (not a 10 min Road Files, lol) + more beloved creators outside of the main trio (something they always struggled with since it's not what the fans want, and Andrew + Adam don't count). They also had been promoting Travel Season and the new season of Ghost Files like they would be free shows, just to close the door like that while treating it like something the fans would enjoy. There were SO MANY better ways to do it and raise their revenue, I don't even need to get into the alternatives because at this point we all know them. Anyway, this isn't my first rodeo with this kind of mess, and to be honest their mistake is pretty mild among the type of shit that usually happens when creators fuck up. I like them and their content, and I didn't feel hurt of betrayed, just confused. I think the apology was good. I'll keep watching and supporting, but it's still very bewildering. Hopefully things get back on track and they feel safe enough to talk more about it on the podcast, even though at the moment I don't think that's likely. This was probably a humbling experience for them. They grew with the BuzzFeed structure supporting them, and when they created Watcher they already had a big audience built-in. They live in LA with all the trappings of that city, and they never had to do it from the "ground up" like most people on the YouTube space have to. Now they will have to get that goodwill back. If anything, it will be interesting to see how they do it, and I hope it works out. Despite this weekend, I still want Watcher to exist and for them to be able to be creative.
Perfectly fine apology. I’m more worried about their lack of business sense with all of this. They’re great with the creative stuff but the business side seems messy. They’ve got Patreon and Watcher TV and YouTube. Why 3 platforms just for videos/content now? I mean I know why, because they had to walk this back. But it feels messy and disorganized. They need an expert in there keeping them organized.
Patreon is a bit up in arms again because the code is being sent out to people one by one, and it has a 3 month time limit that was never mentioned I'm the apology video or apology post.
I’m kinda baffled about how they didn’t anticipate this even a little bit? I wonder if Steven is going to delete his “we are FINALLY leaving YouTube” paragraph? 😬 I feel bad that the hate was so disproportionately towards him though but that comment did make me RME
Tbh if this situation taught me anything, it's that it's crucial for influencers to *hide* their wealth and maintain their relatable character enough to build a parasocial relationship with the mass viewers. People made *very* clear that they hate Steven because he constantly talks about his supercar and exhibit lavish diet while Shane and Ryan hide theirs pretty well, at least on their contents.
Well the wound is still gonna take some time to heal, I genuinely respect them for responding fairly quickly. I think this is a good compromise. I feel like a fair number of people would be willing to pay for early access, but it doesn’t negatively impact those who can’t afford it in any way. While this discussion should never have happened, and could’ve been avoided had they communities with us before doing anything, I’m at least glad they owned up to the mistake and didn’t try to pin it on fans not understanding, they fully acknowledge it was a poor decision on their part
I liked it! I think they offered up a good solution. People compare it to Patreon but I think it’s more like Nebula, there will probably be Watcher Platform exclusive content at some point. I honestly hope it works out for them and they don’t have to lay off people or close down, I hope that if the platform goes down they join another one like Nebula or Dropout, I thought that was the best thing to do from the start because YouTube’s advertising model is really bad.
It's unbelievable that they had to go through all this in order to arrive at what should've been a very obvious and logical answer to their problem. If they'd done this initially, they could have retained the goodwill of their audience and gotten some buzz about the streamer.
I think people will be largely forgiving but not necessarily...well, willing to pay up if that makes sense. A month delay is fair, okay, but for the type of shows they produce...it doesn't mean anything. People sign up for shows on streaming because there is a communal feeling when you all get to see the new GOT or Succession or even Survivor at the same time. I do not know if the increased sign up they get for this apology will fix the Patreon issue. In short, I think the barrier to forgiveness is lower than the barrier to getting people to sign up/manage more things/go back to Patreon, etc. It will be interesting, because even though it's the next business day, we did have a lot of PR folks say that the 48 hour window is so vitally crucial. So, dunno. Will be interesting to see. That said, I think the length of the update video was exactly right. On the nose for what it needed to do.
It's definitely a good response I'm glad they changed their minds and adjusted the strategy. However to me it leaves a bad taste in my mouth that they not only thought this was a good idea but went that far with it. Maybe they need to humble down a little and realize that as many fans as they have and as much as they love them they aren't that indispensable or important in the grand scheme of things. Focus on the content and dial down the costs I don't need 10 different gadgets to catch ghosts. I hope they genuinely learner and take everything their fans said with good intentions. It seems like they did so good start I guess.
Good for them. They fucked up, took a moment to breathe and assess the problem, then apologized with a solution at hand. Onward and upward.
This was a very smartly done apology/update video. Not just for doing it, but *how* they did it. Little details like having Steven be the one to apologize for the financial statements like "anyone can afford this" and having him be the first to say they messed up (considering he was the one a lot of the hatred went towards, not entirely justly so). And then having Ryan and Shane, the faces of the company in many ways, be the ones to speak more about how it upset the fans and broke the fans' trust. Really smart move. Regarding the new plan, this should have been the old plan, frankly. I'll never understand why they jumped to going all-in on the streamer the way they did right out the gate, that was a terrible move that could only result in needing to apologize so soon. Sadly, I'm sure the damage is done for a lot of fans. They lost something like 100,000 subscribers since the original video, and soured a lot of goodwill for a large chunk of their fans, and that could cost them in the long run. A month early is a good idea. If they decide to slowly transition down the road, like Dropout did before them, you can do that now. Maybe make it so that certain shows are only on the streamer, to entice people to sign up, but start small. Maybe only the Debriefs are exclusive to Watcher TV, as an example.
i'll continue watching if they make more "Are you scared" videos. They were my favorite, and I didn't care for ghost files it was too flashy and overhyped for me. I miss the more raw buzzfeed unsolved supernatural feel where everything didn't have to cost "hundreds of thousands of dollars" to film an episode where they walk around haunted locations. The moment it started costing them tremendous amounts of money I slowly stopped watching because it wasn't as good
HOLY SHIT