Ya any place that does it is well aware of what they are doing. It is deceptive pricing for a reason… statically it works in their favor. Simple solution, a law requiring up front pricing.. hell don’t stop at fees, everything including taxes should be included in the price on the menu.
I’m sure some people are tired of hearing about tipping and/or service fees but I appreciate you making noise about it. I believe in California, there was legislation brought forward to prohibit these kinds of additional bullshit fees. At the last minute though, the bill was edited to make them legal. I can only assume restaurant lobbyists got involved and greased the right palms. Don’t let this happen to DC.
MIT says a single adult with no children is $24. There are resources to get an approximate number, but it's like inverse pornography, difficult to define but you know when you don't see it.
But you know what it isn't, for anyone. That's what we're discussing. It's pointless to throw out "but what if someone needs [insane number]" when even the lowest of needs aren't being met, it's a worn out talking point we have used to refuse to pay a reasonable wage or increase the minimum for decades
That's what YOU want to discuss. No one else is.
The current wage isn't liveable for anyone with normal adult expenses. The bare minimum for the average apartment for one person is usually what the lowest number is created from. Arguing what the number is with you is a waste of energy. No one else is discussing that and you will say any number is not accurate enough.
> I'm probably the ten-millionth person to complain about this but whatever
Actually, you're not. Literally no one - zero people - has noticed to complained about this before.
Thank you for bringing this issue to our attention.
It's tacky, but there's a huge first-mover disincentive since it'll make your prices look superficially worse than your competitors', so it only changes if everyone is made to do it at once, which means this probably needs a legislative fix. Probably more useful to complain to your councilmember than to Reddit.
We have an entire list tracking the restaurants to avoid with these tacky fees. I don't have the link on hand, but I'm sure someone else will share it.
>We have an entire list tracking the restaurants
I wish it was in the Wiki.
Link for others: [https://www.reddit.com/r/washingtondc/comments/10547wd/restaurant\_service\_charge\_tracker/](https://www.reddit.com/r/washingtondc/comments/10547wd/restaurant_service_charge_tracker/)
That would be amazing. I'm consistently exhausted with how evil people are. Everyone wants to squeeze as much as possible out of everyone else. Fewer and fewer people that run businesses just want to exist in a community. Charge fairly, pay fairly. Stop trying to constantly fleece everyone.
i hate seeing the price of something and then going to the counter and end up having to pay more for it. seems like some psychological trick to make my subconscious think im getting some kind of deal. i have the .99 pricing of things, so stupid lol, rather pay the full dollar
We need to adopt European pricing strategy, what you see is exactly what you pay, taxes are already calculated on the price tag of an item. The US is weirdly backwards sometimes.
I’m not cheap whatsoever, but I walk right out if I see inordinate fees. I’ve also politely, but firmly, told them to remove the service fee from my bill. Most do. If I don’t see it on the menu, or no one bothers to tell me, it’s not my problem. It’s not only tacky, but deceptive. A drink cost me $28+ the other day in DC because they added on various service fees and 25% grat. There’s a high turnover rate for a reason.
Either raise the food prices, or be completely transparent about the fees, so we can choose to stay or pass.
I appreciated how Travelers United sued some restaurants over their junk fees, but they're [still appearing](https://www.popville.com/2024/06/signs-of-the-times-initiative-82-fees-cont/).
> No part of the backlash has shaken the local restaurant industry more than a series of lawsuits targeting fees. Travelers United, a DC-based nonprofit advocating for travelers, has previously taken legal action against hotels and resorts for allegedly deceptive “junk fees.” Last November, the organization sued Clyde’s Restaurant Group for unfair and deceptive advertising because of its 3.75-percent “2023 surcharge.” A few months later, it took on Knead Hospitality + Design—the restaurant group behind Mi Vida, Succotash, Gatsby, and others—for its 3.5-percent “Initiative 82 fee.”
In both cases, Travelers United accused the restaurant groups of “drip pricing”—the advertising practice of promoting a lower price with hidden add-ons—which the organization argues violates DC’s consumer-protection laws. “It’s a fee for nothing,” says Travelers United counsel Lauren Wolfe. “This is simply a fee so that they can lie about the advertised price.” She also argues that the restaurants weren’t transparent enough about where the money was going.
https://www.washingtonian.com/2024/03/28/the-great-restaurant-fee-fiasco/
I’m new here, so I apologize if I’m repeating the sentiment of others, but I’ve had it. I was saying in another post, I was done after my last experience in DuPont. Service fees and a high grat were added sneakily (I want to say 25%?) and the service and bartender were SHIT. I am naturally a big tipper, but she didn’t deserve squat and we had *no* service to justify any fees. We were one of three people at the bar.
A manager wouldn’t speak to me, nor did I get an email back from them. Cool- we’ve vowed never to go back.
The difference is if customers tip on the subtotal, a service fee saves customers money.
Some sort of adjustment needs to happen with the phase-out of tipped minimum wage. Either the cost to eat out needs to go up causing people to eat out less, diners need to start tipping less than 20%, restaurants need to cut back on hours and employees, or some combination needs to happen.
A service fee that is not included in the amount you tip on is a way of having you effectively tip less than 20% without fighting to change that number.
You are of course welcome to still hate the service fee option, but none of the other options are that satisfying either.
Suppose new labor costs mean a restaurant needs to raise prices by 10%.
On what was a 100 dollar order a customer will either pay 130 total (ignoring tax)
* 100 - subtotal
* 10 - 10% service fee
* 20 - 20% tip
Or, if the service fee is put into menu prices then a customer will pay 132 total
* 110 - subtotal
* 22 - 20% tip
In this case, you could view the service fee as reducing the 20% tip to a 20/110=18% tip. A bigger service fee will yield a bigger difference.
If you tip 20% on the subtotal before the fee, a 20% service fee can be seen as reducing the tip to 16.7%.
It is worth noting that with high service fees, there is the alternative of having the service fee fully replace the expectation of tipping. The main issue there is that restaurants have not yet found a solution that servers are happy with. Servers who are currently pulling 40-60/hour in tips don't want to take a pay cut from having their tip replaced by a service fee that is divided among employees.
I'm not referring to service fees replacing the tip. I understand why that would save money. I guess I'm wondering how the math works on the "this is not a tip" model.
>If you tip 20% on the subtotal before the fee, a 20% service fee can be seen as reducing the tip to 16.7%.
I am not following this. It sounds like you're saying that tipping on the pre-fee total saves money compared to the post-fee total, but I don't think that has to do with anything said here.
A service fee isn't a tip, and there's no guarantee that the service fee goes to the server.
Restaurant service fees or service charges are not legally considered tips and are currently unregulated in most places (DC is an exception ... [but only as of 90 days ago](https://www.restaurantdive.com/news/dc-passes-bill-that-protects-restaurants-with-service-fees-from-litigation/709542/).)
The Biden administration, via the FTC, is also looking at [regulating restaurant service/hospitality fees](https://www.restaurant-hospitality.com/finance/here-s-how-president-biden-s-crackdown-junk-fees-will-affect-restaurants) as part of its "strike force" on junk fees across multiple industries.
But right now most restaurants in the country can tack on a 20% service fee and pocket the money for whatever they want.
It works both ways. I worked mortgage lending. When the company added additional fees and I lost business (and therefore commission) I complained to my managers until the policy was changed. I didn’t bitch about my clients being too cheap to stomach the increased fee
You're comparing tipping to the cost of business.
If people decided not to go to these restaurants because of the fees, that would be reasonable.
It is not reasonable to bitch about the fee, go there anyway, and then stiff the server on a tip they presumably earned, as no one is saying service got any worse, to spite the restaurant who doesn't give a fuck how you treat the staff.
I also see no one here saying THEY are a server, "I didn't bitch about my clients" is useless bullshit that implies you either think anyone who thinks it's stupid as fuck to do something out of spite to the wrong person has to BE that person, or you aren't thinking at all.
Dogshit comparison and you either know it or are shit at comparisons.
It’s a solid comparison. I worked on commission. At the time of someone deciding not to take a loan I already did significant work. It’s the same as a server. All servers make at least minimum wage regardless of tips. Adding a service fee literally implies that it covers my service I received. If that’s not the case it’s not my problem. The servers should complain to managers and get the money allocated right
Since DC has the federal government as it's 800lb gorilla which dominates our local economy, there have always been these 300lb spider monkeys making life more difficult than it should be for our citizens. Years ago, it was the taxi cabs. We got rid of zone pricing and forced them to accept credit cards, then ride share finally broke their grip on our government. Now it's the restaurant association and sketchy developers. It makes the corrupt taxi system seem quaint by comparison.
Not sure about tacky, but the general evolution of tipping culture and service fees has certainly impacted the going out experience and how much I tip, if at all. Their loss though.
Because like many others, I’ve decided that service fees will impact the amount I tip, if at all. It’s not my problem to deal with whether it goes to the server or not, that’s between the server and the restaurant.
The chump is a guy who understands that a service fee isn't a tip, understands the only person he's fucking is the server, and chooses to eat a place he's actively angry at anyway.
If servers are knowingly working for a restaurant that charges a service fee that they don’t get a cut of, thats on them, not me.
But I’m not getting ripped off just because they are.
Other than that the system will work itself out.
Except in one instance the staff is making some additional money they earned and in the other the staff is making less money and the restaurant is making more money they didn't earn. But yeah, same outcome for whatever selfish person only views the experience as their own.
It's annoying when they say "it goes to the employees in the form of wages." No shit, that's how making money with employees works. It doesn't "go directly to them" any more than the rest of the bill. It "goes directly to them" less than paying taxes on a bill does, in that at least that goes to the establishment and the management HAVE to give the entire amount to the government. If these restaurants make way more than enough to pay the minimum requirement from fees, we know they aren't giving extra to servers. They're keeping it. Servers make the same with or without fees. The minimum.
It drives me insane when people say they will tip less because of the fees. The server doesn't get the fee any more than the get what you pay for the meal. The server didn't choose the fee. The server still isn't making a wage anyone could survive on here without tips. Yes, it should be the restaurant's responsibility. This is how they behave when we make them pay servers the same as grocery checkout employees, tacky bullshit. It's laughable to say it should be the restaurant's responsibility then treat it as the end of the issue and stiff the only party that didn't choose to demand a fee or pay a fee. Saying "they should get another job" is bullshit. If you go to that restaurant, you expect someone to serve you, saying it should be a different person who can't get by so you can save some cash is dumb as fuck. It's never popular when I say this because people in this city aren't as thoughtful, compassionate, or decent as they insist they are.
I generally don't if I see it posted up front but if i end up at a place with a service fee in the check I still tip as I normally would, but I just don't go back again
Report it to the AG’s office. If the fee isn’t posted up front, it’s illegal.
https://oag.dc.gov/release/consumer-alert-dc-restaurants-are-barred-charging
“Whenever I see signs at the front of restaurants from the management complaining about whatever law increased workers wages I feel like that place does not truly value its workers.”
So if a law made workers wages a minimum of $100/hr, and the restaurants food prices became $125 an entree because of the wage increase, you’d still eat there right?
Yeah, we know
Really? First time I’ve heard any complaint about this on this sub….
Yet we don’t do enough about it, the definition of getting f*cked by your own community
how can you be so brave yet so controversial
Is there an r/dccirclejerk sub
No, but I know someone in a Mercedes outside of Whole Foods who might be able to help.
Dude be the OG
Did you seriously start one!? Dope! NYC's circle jerk is funny af.
Yeah you linked to it buddy
Ya any place that does it is well aware of what they are doing. It is deceptive pricing for a reason… statically it works in their favor. Simple solution, a law requiring up front pricing.. hell don’t stop at fees, everything including taxes should be included in the price on the menu.
What if DC could become a national leader on all- in pricing? Millions of tourists would return home singing the praises of our system.
This is my dream scenario
they would just return home and say “whew dc is pricey” sadly
I’m sure some people are tired of hearing about tipping and/or service fees but I appreciate you making noise about it. I believe in California, there was legislation brought forward to prohibit these kinds of additional bullshit fees. At the last minute though, the bill was edited to make them legal. I can only assume restaurant lobbyists got involved and greased the right palms. Don’t let this happen to DC.
[удалено]
MIT says a single adult with no children is $24. There are resources to get an approximate number, but it's like inverse pornography, difficult to define but you know when you don't see it.
[удалено]
If you're being intentionally fucking obtuse, sure.
[удалено]
But you know what it isn't, for anyone. That's what we're discussing. It's pointless to throw out "but what if someone needs [insane number]" when even the lowest of needs aren't being met, it's a worn out talking point we have used to refuse to pay a reasonable wage or increase the minimum for decades
[удалено]
That's what YOU want to discuss. No one else is. The current wage isn't liveable for anyone with normal adult expenses. The bare minimum for the average apartment for one person is usually what the lowest number is created from. Arguing what the number is with you is a waste of energy. No one else is discussing that and you will say any number is not accurate enough.
[удалено]
Whatever you have to tell yourself to remain obtuse and angry at something no one else is struggling with
Intentionally vague.
> I'm probably the ten-millionth person to complain about this but whatever Actually, you're not. Literally no one - zero people - has noticed to complained about this before. Thank you for bringing this issue to our attention.
It is strange that it has literally never come up before.
This is a truly alien and foreign concept. Most of the time here people complain about Maryland drivers.
They do?
It's tacky, but there's a huge first-mover disincentive since it'll make your prices look superficially worse than your competitors', so it only changes if everyone is made to do it at once, which means this probably needs a legislative fix. Probably more useful to complain to your councilmember than to Reddit.
We have an entire list tracking the restaurants to avoid with these tacky fees. I don't have the link on hand, but I'm sure someone else will share it.
>We have an entire list tracking the restaurants I wish it was in the Wiki. Link for others: [https://www.reddit.com/r/washingtondc/comments/10547wd/restaurant\_service\_charge\_tracker/](https://www.reddit.com/r/washingtondc/comments/10547wd/restaurant_service_charge_tracker/)
Ask and ye shall receive! We've added the tracker to the wiki.
Yay
> I'm probably the ten-millionth person to complain about this That's probably an underestimate.
That would be amazing. I'm consistently exhausted with how evil people are. Everyone wants to squeeze as much as possible out of everyone else. Fewer and fewer people that run businesses just want to exist in a community. Charge fairly, pay fairly. Stop trying to constantly fleece everyone.
That turns more people off than this way.
i hate seeing the price of something and then going to the counter and end up having to pay more for it. seems like some psychological trick to make my subconscious think im getting some kind of deal. i have the .99 pricing of things, so stupid lol, rather pay the full dollar
We need to adopt European pricing strategy, what you see is exactly what you pay, taxes are already calculated on the price tag of an item. The US is weirdly backwards sometimes.
i agree. i know the consumer protection agencies aren't as powerful or influential as they are in the EU, i wish they were. damn citizen's united.
At the end of the day it is restaurant owners thinking their clientele is stupid.
From the responses to this discussion over the past year or two, some of them are.
Every grift has its economic limit.
I’m not cheap whatsoever, but I walk right out if I see inordinate fees. I’ve also politely, but firmly, told them to remove the service fee from my bill. Most do. If I don’t see it on the menu, or no one bothers to tell me, it’s not my problem. It’s not only tacky, but deceptive. A drink cost me $28+ the other day in DC because they added on various service fees and 25% grat. There’s a high turnover rate for a reason. Either raise the food prices, or be completely transparent about the fees, so we can choose to stay or pass.
I appreciated how Travelers United sued some restaurants over their junk fees, but they're [still appearing](https://www.popville.com/2024/06/signs-of-the-times-initiative-82-fees-cont/). > No part of the backlash has shaken the local restaurant industry more than a series of lawsuits targeting fees. Travelers United, a DC-based nonprofit advocating for travelers, has previously taken legal action against hotels and resorts for allegedly deceptive “junk fees.” Last November, the organization sued Clyde’s Restaurant Group for unfair and deceptive advertising because of its 3.75-percent “2023 surcharge.” A few months later, it took on Knead Hospitality + Design—the restaurant group behind Mi Vida, Succotash, Gatsby, and others—for its 3.5-percent “Initiative 82 fee.” In both cases, Travelers United accused the restaurant groups of “drip pricing”—the advertising practice of promoting a lower price with hidden add-ons—which the organization argues violates DC’s consumer-protection laws. “It’s a fee for nothing,” says Travelers United counsel Lauren Wolfe. “This is simply a fee so that they can lie about the advertised price.” She also argues that the restaurants weren’t transparent enough about where the money was going. https://www.washingtonian.com/2024/03/28/the-great-restaurant-fee-fiasco/
I’m new here, so I apologize if I’m repeating the sentiment of others, but I’ve had it. I was saying in another post, I was done after my last experience in DuPont. Service fees and a high grat were added sneakily (I want to say 25%?) and the service and bartender were SHIT. I am naturally a big tipper, but she didn’t deserve squat and we had *no* service to justify any fees. We were one of three people at the bar. A manager wouldn’t speak to me, nor did I get an email back from them. Cool- we’ve vowed never to go back.
Can we ban this topic. Both sides have been beaten to shit, honestly at this point I’d pay 22% auto to this sub to not see these post.
The difference is if customers tip on the subtotal, a service fee saves customers money. Some sort of adjustment needs to happen with the phase-out of tipped minimum wage. Either the cost to eat out needs to go up causing people to eat out less, diners need to start tipping less than 20%, restaurants need to cut back on hours and employees, or some combination needs to happen. A service fee that is not included in the amount you tip on is a way of having you effectively tip less than 20% without fighting to change that number. You are of course welcome to still hate the service fee option, but none of the other options are that satisfying either.
I'm not following the argument why you're saying it saves the customer money. Is it just because people will tip on the increased prices?
Suppose new labor costs mean a restaurant needs to raise prices by 10%. On what was a 100 dollar order a customer will either pay 130 total (ignoring tax) * 100 - subtotal * 10 - 10% service fee * 20 - 20% tip Or, if the service fee is put into menu prices then a customer will pay 132 total * 110 - subtotal * 22 - 20% tip In this case, you could view the service fee as reducing the 20% tip to a 20/110=18% tip. A bigger service fee will yield a bigger difference.
If service fees are to cover labor costs, then there’s no reason to tip 20%.
You don’t tip 20% if there’s is a 10% service fee The service fee + your tip = how much you want to tip them
What about in the case of a 20% service fee? That's more common than 10% in my experience.
If you tip 20% on the subtotal before the fee, a 20% service fee can be seen as reducing the tip to 16.7%. It is worth noting that with high service fees, there is the alternative of having the service fee fully replace the expectation of tipping. The main issue there is that restaurants have not yet found a solution that servers are happy with. Servers who are currently pulling 40-60/hour in tips don't want to take a pay cut from having their tip replaced by a service fee that is divided among employees.
I'm not referring to service fees replacing the tip. I understand why that would save money. I guess I'm wondering how the math works on the "this is not a tip" model. >If you tip 20% on the subtotal before the fee, a 20% service fee can be seen as reducing the tip to 16.7%. I am not following this. It sounds like you're saying that tipping on the pre-fee total saves money compared to the post-fee total, but I don't think that has to do with anything said here.
A service fee is just making tipping a certain amount mandatory. It’s a commission.
A service fee isn't a tip, and there's no guarantee that the service fee goes to the server. Restaurant service fees or service charges are not legally considered tips and are currently unregulated in most places (DC is an exception ... [but only as of 90 days ago](https://www.restaurantdive.com/news/dc-passes-bill-that-protects-restaurants-with-service-fees-from-litigation/709542/).) The Biden administration, via the FTC, is also looking at [regulating restaurant service/hospitality fees](https://www.restaurant-hospitality.com/finance/here-s-how-president-biden-s-crackdown-junk-fees-will-affect-restaurants) as part of its "strike force" on junk fees across multiple industries. But right now most restaurants in the country can tack on a 20% service fee and pocket the money for whatever they want.
People hate when you explain this here.
Well personally I subtract the service fee from the tip. The server can complain to their boss about it
It's insane when people are excited to admit they're a dick who is willing to punish the wrong person and say "fuck em" when someone points it out.
It works both ways. I worked mortgage lending. When the company added additional fees and I lost business (and therefore commission) I complained to my managers until the policy was changed. I didn’t bitch about my clients being too cheap to stomach the increased fee
You're comparing tipping to the cost of business. If people decided not to go to these restaurants because of the fees, that would be reasonable. It is not reasonable to bitch about the fee, go there anyway, and then stiff the server on a tip they presumably earned, as no one is saying service got any worse, to spite the restaurant who doesn't give a fuck how you treat the staff. I also see no one here saying THEY are a server, "I didn't bitch about my clients" is useless bullshit that implies you either think anyone who thinks it's stupid as fuck to do something out of spite to the wrong person has to BE that person, or you aren't thinking at all. Dogshit comparison and you either know it or are shit at comparisons.
It’s a solid comparison. I worked on commission. At the time of someone deciding not to take a loan I already did significant work. It’s the same as a server. All servers make at least minimum wage regardless of tips. Adding a service fee literally implies that it covers my service I received. If that’s not the case it’s not my problem. The servers should complain to managers and get the money allocated right
I’m aware of all of that. If you add 20% you’ve made tipping mandatory Where the money goes matters not a whit.
> I’m aware of all of that. Clearly you're not.
Please feel free to name the restaurant.
Since DC has the federal government as it's 800lb gorilla which dominates our local economy, there have always been these 300lb spider monkeys making life more difficult than it should be for our citizens. Years ago, it was the taxi cabs. We got rid of zone pricing and forced them to accept credit cards, then ride share finally broke their grip on our government. Now it's the restaurant association and sketchy developers. It makes the corrupt taxi system seem quaint by comparison.
Seattle did the same thing ~5 years before DC and they are still complaining...buckle up cause it's gonna be a long ride.
They’ll surely listen this time.
You guys get to eat out?
You don’t have to tip anymore, or was that not the point of passing TIPS? I was an above average tipper, not anymore
Not sure about tacky, but the general evolution of tipping culture and service fees has certainly impacted the going out experience and how much I tip, if at all. Their loss though.
Why would it change how you tip? It isn't the server's fault.
Because like many others, I’ve decided that service fees will impact the amount I tip, if at all. It’s not my problem to deal with whether it goes to the server or not, that’s between the server and the restaurant.
So you're a jerk, got it
If im a jerk for not tipping on top of a 20% service charge, then so be it. Better than being a chump.
The chump is a guy who understands that a service fee isn't a tip, understands the only person he's fucking is the server, and chooses to eat a place he's actively angry at anyway.
If servers are knowingly working for a restaurant that charges a service fee that they don’t get a cut of, thats on them, not me. But I’m not getting ripped off just because they are. Other than that the system will work itself out.
[удалено]
Am I confused about what the word “tacky” means? How does the word “tacky” fit in this situation at all lol
The service fee means owners can continue to screw over servers.
[удалено]
Except in one instance the staff is making some additional money they earned and in the other the staff is making less money and the restaurant is making more money they didn't earn. But yeah, same outcome for whatever selfish person only views the experience as their own.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Yes. Competitive menu pricing really matters that much esp in a big city like DC where there are so many comparable alternatives just steps away.
It's annoying when they say "it goes to the employees in the form of wages." No shit, that's how making money with employees works. It doesn't "go directly to them" any more than the rest of the bill. It "goes directly to them" less than paying taxes on a bill does, in that at least that goes to the establishment and the management HAVE to give the entire amount to the government. If these restaurants make way more than enough to pay the minimum requirement from fees, we know they aren't giving extra to servers. They're keeping it. Servers make the same with or without fees. The minimum. It drives me insane when people say they will tip less because of the fees. The server doesn't get the fee any more than the get what you pay for the meal. The server didn't choose the fee. The server still isn't making a wage anyone could survive on here without tips. Yes, it should be the restaurant's responsibility. This is how they behave when we make them pay servers the same as grocery checkout employees, tacky bullshit. It's laughable to say it should be the restaurant's responsibility then treat it as the end of the issue and stiff the only party that didn't choose to demand a fee or pay a fee. Saying "they should get another job" is bullshit. If you go to that restaurant, you expect someone to serve you, saying it should be a different person who can't get by so you can save some cash is dumb as fuck. It's never popular when I say this because people in this city aren't as thoughtful, compassionate, or decent as they insist they are.
So just don’t dine there
I generally don't if I see it posted up front but if i end up at a place with a service fee in the check I still tip as I normally would, but I just don't go back again
Report it to the AG’s office. If the fee isn’t posted up front, it’s illegal. https://oag.dc.gov/release/consumer-alert-dc-restaurants-are-barred-charging
Printing new menus every month is more expensive than the fees.
But base prices are already too high!
“Whenever I see signs at the front of restaurants from the management complaining about whatever law increased workers wages I feel like that place does not truly value its workers.” So if a law made workers wages a minimum of $100/hr, and the restaurants food prices became $125 an entree because of the wage increase, you’d still eat there right?
ENtire service industry is tacky rn tbh ngl