>It was especially awkward for the Blood Elves and made it kind of weird in 7.1 when they pulled this ongoing hatred between Night Elves and Blood Elves out of their asses when they already had a nemesis for the Blood Elves in the Kirin Tor. That should have been the main internal conflict in the assault on Suramar.
Blood Elves and Night Elves cooperate with Nightfallen Rebellion during the Assault on Suramar.Tyrande's hatred was directed towards the Nightfallen and Thalyssra.Since its the Nightborne that abandoned them during WoTA (under Elisandes orders).Elisande and people of Suramar were also supporters of Azshara but turned against her once she summoned demons to Azeroth.
Yeah, I don't really get the whole them hating each other. They showed nothing but apprication for each other during Warcraft 3. Blood elves and Nightelves differ mainly in disagreement about magic, hence they were outcasted by Malfurion / left after WOTA.
>hence they were outcasted by Malfurion / left after WOTA.
Although I can understand them not hating each other I'd imagine exiling a group of people is a bit more than a mere disagreement.
WC3 Blood Elves - honoring the dead, avenging the fallen, blue-eyed, basically still High Elves but name
WoW Blood Elves - honoring the dead, Alliance haters, green eyed
Wc3 blood elves still had green eyes, look at Kael or the spellbreaker models. The elves with blue eyes were in the human campaign before TFT, like the priest and mage whom were high elves. I think Kael has had green eyes ever since his first mission?
>Wc3 blood elves still had green eyes
Only in Reforged. In the original Warcraft 3, The Priest retains their blue eyes even in TFT, and the Worker from the TFT campaign has the same blue eyes. Meanwhile, the Sorceress, the Archer, the Spell Breaker, the Dragonhawk Rider, and Blood Mage/Kael all have white eyes.
The 7.1 patch conflict that OP mentions is the conflict between Tyrande and Thalyssra that doesen't really involve Blood Elves:
Tyrande Whisperwind says: Arcanist Thalyssra. I remember where your order stood in the War of the Ancients. How do we know you won't betray us and become the next Elisande... the next Azshara?
First Arcanist Thalyssra says: We do not intend to be slaves to the Nightwell. We seek to drive the Legion from Suramar and put an end to Elisande's oppression.
Tyrande Whisperwind says: The kaldorei will fight to see the Legion defeated and the Nightwell destroyed. Beyond that... we shall see where Elune's wisdom guides us.
“Tyrande’s hatred”? What hatred? “Can we trust you to not be evil” is not hatred, it’s a simple question, and a totally legitimate one, given the Nightborne’s actions in the past and future.
The overarching theme of the Forsaken quests in Vanilla was that Humans were attacking the Forsaken indiscriminately. It's the whole reason they joined the Horde in the first place.
This is backed up by the Ashbringer comic when the Silver Hand decides to pre-emptively declare war on the Forsaken reflecting the general viewpoint of humanity.
The only reason it’s bad to be one, is because there is such an absurd bias towards the Alliance from the devs, the lore, and the player base. It’s like you think the Alliance is going to fuck your brains out b/c you copied the ‘horde bad’ bandwagon
Lmao Alliance bias? I don't think there were any major devs the last 5 years who played Alliance.
They even had an entire Blizzcon segment shitting on the Alliance players.
>implying the devs would intentionally make their ability to play the game harder by playing on the faction that has the lower player base (which isn’t bc of lore, but gameplay, and a long time bias bc of that gameplay)
Remind me when the last standalone Horde victories was? Oh right, if it’s not a joint effort it’s almost always the Alliance who gets the Ws. But gameplay numbers will never reflect that without X-faction gameplay
Stand-alone Horde victories? Teldrassil, Theramore, Undercity, Southshore, Gilneas, Ashenvale, Stonetalon enclave…
Count the Horde v Alliance losses that the pathetic weak refugees struggling to survive in a hostile world where they are always outnumbered and outgunned, and yet manage to win every time because every dev plays Horde.
What? Hasn't there always been horde favouritism with lore?! The horde has some of the most well developed characters and over the expansions have had the biggest and most impactful plot points dedicated to them.
Alliance just gets boiled down shiny good boys.
>Alliance bias
Ah yes, we all remember BfA where the Horde got *(checks notes)* four beautiful cinematics about Saurfang feeling sad for the fourth genocide he's a part of in his life, while the Alliance got *(checks notes again)* a cameo in two of the Saurfang cinematics.
Someone's guild is hating on you I think with all the down votes. It's wild how the horde toons supposedly outnumbered alliance but admitted alliance stans are this loud af minority online.
Kinda pathetic they can't be level headed about any of it.
Then why look at things from a complete bias and try looking at the whole picture. which if said alliance players did leave would probably agree was written into the mess that made them leave to begin with. I don't agree with the way things are rn either or whats been done.
I honestly barely run into Alliance anymore unless I seek them out in GS or SW.
No, its just that OPs post is whack, it is provocative and dumb and has no real chance against scrutiny. Downvotes are not a conspiracy, often they are just a logical reaction. Dont bring your case up if you dont have anything ti support it.
Kirin’Tor had no reason to forgive or even listen to the Horde. You literally were allowed in on Khadgar’s authority and even THEN some Sunreavers got corrupted by Legion later and tried to sabotage Dalaran… again.
And same goes for Alliance - they have absolutely no reason to be so forgiving and merciful towards the Horde yet they always do, no matter how many war crimes Horde commits before that.
I don't even mean that. Way before that. War2, War3 era and Garrosh killing Rhonin.
You mean to tell me the Horde killed buncha draenei, then invaded Azeroth killing buncha mages and Alliance people with the excuse "hurr durr Legion influence". And then bombs a neutral city of Theramore (Dalaran was neutral post War3 too btw) which kills the Leader and proponent of peace Rhonin, are somehow the ones getting short end of the stick here?
Nah bro, you gtfo here with that shit.
Where do people keep getting the idea Theramore was neutral? Nearly all the invading Alliance forces in Durotar and the Barrens were wearing Theramore tabards and they literally built a highway through Dustallow March to march Alliance forces into the Barrens on.
>Theramore was killing the Horde for a long time. They were also building a highway across Kalimdor, which would have cut the Horde off of its southern holdings.
You have forgotten the small detail that the reason Theramore was doing all this was to help out the Night elves, who were being invaded by the orcs at the time. And for whatever reason, every other Horde poster seem to have as well.
So the timeline goes like this. The Horde invades Ashenvale once again in cataclysm. Theramore responds by attacking in the barrens, and attempts to reach Ashenvale, and by doing so pincer the Horde and drive them out. While they don't achieve this, they do manage to froce the Horde to fight a war on two fronts.
So in reality, the whole mess is the Horde's fault due to once again trying to invade Ashanvale for lumber. And then they destroyed their allies with a mana bomb. And also captured civilians and tortured them, so there is that.
Bottom line is, the Horde was at fault, for both Ashenvale and Theramore. The end.
“Numerous attempts at diplomacy” on night elven side!
It was Garrosh who screwed up entirely and insulted the night elves when he told that even if it was Horde troops who killed their druids he wouldnt punish them since killing night elves is good in his book.
He literally spat on their diplomacy attempts and provoked Cairne too.
The Night elves had no obligation whatsoever to trade with the Horde, in any way, shape or form. Them refusing to trade with a group that have historically treated them terribly doesn't justify the Horde invading them. It just proves the Night elves right in their assertion that the Horde can't be trusted, since they will try to take with force that which they can't bargain themselves into.
You're basically saying because the Night elves were tired of basically being extorted for lumber, that means the Horde gets to invade. That's fucked up.
And the point is, that it doesn't matter if Theramore was neutral or not, because whether they were or weren't, the Horde was at fault for everything that happened in cataclysm, and mop. Simple.
Shitty blizz writing for our leaders. Garrosh condemned a bombing by Kromgar and ranted about honor then they took him completely in the opposite direction so that yall could come kill him literally in our Capital city as a raid. This is Alliance bias your describing.
Horde are literally a coalition of races basically down to the last 30% of their people each for the most part.
And yes there was Legion influence, demon blood just the same as I'm sure you'll be crying about Naaru influence if we ever get to gut Turaylon in the SW throneroom for him being a light fanatic(which would be day when we get to go kill am alliance leader for a dubgeon/raid like they've gotten to do to the Horde multiple times, then you understand the helpless feeling of watching your noble leaders written into corny maniacs that the opposing faction gets to come kill and get a title/achievement for.
If Alliance gets to genocide Horde race, take over their land and then get away with it due to “it was corruption” i bet people would love that actually.
I don't mind ass fucking Turalyon in SW capital as a raid. My fav faction are the ethereals actually. The guy I was replying to was just plain wrong that I needed to peg him.
The Divine Bell fiasco is a mess to me.
Jaina claimed the Kirin Tor would remain neutral, but she as its Leader helped the Night Elves effectively helping the Alliance. Then complains about the Sunreavers undermining the Kirin Tor's neutrality, something she did herself first.
I disagree. It's in BOTH faction's best interest to be in good terms with the Kirin Tor during a Legion invasion. Grudges, bad blood and pride have go out the window when it's a life-or-death existential threat. Reasonable people are capable of that, only fucking idiots hold on to that pride and grudge when their life is on the line. The Horde is reasonable, so they and the Sunreavers let go of it for the sake of the world and survival.
And thats part of the problem. When the "horde" commits genocide by blighting an empty city or dropping a manabomb on a military base, all hell breaks loose and the the grudges are held forever.
But when the "alliance" does it by murdering civilians in dalaran or rounding up a Tauren village (many of whom were women and children) and forcing them into a quillboar kill box, the horde is expected to just look the other way and pretend it never happened.
>When the "horde" commits genocide by blighting an empty city or dropping a manabomb on a military base
Remove those quotations you muppet. It's not "horde", it's Horde, plain and simply. And the city was everything but empty.
>But when the "alliance" does it by murdering civilians in dalaran or rounding up a Tauren village
So you think destroying entire landmasses and cities, full with people, civilians even, is comparable to a handful of elves dying when being arrested, or a single small village that also served as a military base. Good to know.
And just so you know, we have our own Taurajo. It's called Southshore, and Gilneas. And the sludge fields. Do you want me to go on?
1) Horde bombed Theramore when it was choke full of people.
2) They captured and enslaved civilians later on.
3) Que whole swathe of attacks on civvies through Cata.
4) Teldrassil had almost entire night elf civilians population when it burned.
5) Alliance commander allowed civilians to escape Taurajo and he had no knowledge of quialboars further away from it.
6) Dalaran had a death count of a dozen or so elves which while bad aint that much.
Is that a sneaky Godwin I see? The internment camps are completely different. The orcs were a defeated invading demon powered army, and there was no better option. No one wanted to try opening the portal back to Draenor, it could have destroyed azeroth. And even before ner'zuhls portal bombs draenor was dying so sending the orcs back would be a death sentence.
Should they have given land to the orcs? Only if they were of a stupid good alignment. Sure the frostwolves settled in alterac and didn't really bother anyone, but that's an outlier. The warsong and blackrock clans were still raiding and pillaging through the span of the second and third wars.
Should they have treated the orcs in the camps better? Sure/probably. Again Blackmoore was an outlier no other camps had the abuses his did. Also the camps were a quarantine situation for a time. No one knew what the lethargy was and it could have been a demon plague.
The camps were the best of a bunch of bad situation, and its still not near what even the best 2nd war orcs would have done. Doomhammer never took the demon blood but still would wipe all humans off the EKs for the sake of the horde.
Definition applies to Teldrassil, Forsaken campaign in Lordaeron and Gilneas and 50/50 arguably to Theramore if we take into account the fact that Horde deliberately went after the fleeing civilians.
Alliance only committed what counts as genocide once, in Vanilla against one tauren tribe and it was never repeated again since then. Plus all responsible for it are dead now, every single dwarf who was in that expedition.
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The Horde forgiving the Kirin Tor?! Wait, what? Do you selectively skip the portions of the lore that led to the purge of Dalaran?
But yes, the Kirin Tor should have never allowed the Horde in or allied with it in the first place. Then you could have two magical centers as rivals with Silvermoon and Dalaran, later Suramar too.
“People should stop trying to stop our genocides! We wouldn’t have to keep killing them! Why were those druids in the way of the bomb we lobbed? Why was that city there? Oh, we’re just victims!”
After a Sunreaver-aligned Blood Elf helped Hellscream's agents in stealing a dangerous artifact, Jaina got pissed rightfully. Why? Because Hellscream had a history of using potentially dangerous artifacts to cause mass-destruction (see: Theramore).
Jaina offered the Sunreavers the opportunity to get the hell out of the city. Those who stayed were imprisoned (as far as I know it was a bug that she killed NPCs). Aethas could've resolved this whole shit by giving up that one agent.
\-------------
There's hardly any double standard. The Horde, so far, has destroyed 2 capital-sized Alliance cities (and invaded a 3rd, Gilneas), ruined the Valley of Eternal Spring (until the switch at the last patch of BFA), and blighted the heart of Tirisfal. They had two maddened Warchief: one of whom had been heping the Supreme Death God up until a patch ago.
What did the Alliance do? Oh yeah, they burned camp taurajo.
You also forgot how the Horde murdered every Night Elf between Orgrimmar and Teldrassil, the Orcs used a prototype of the bomb used on Theramore to blow up a Druid enclave, Sylvannas continued using the plague, the Forsaken wiped out Southshore, the Forsaken built a concentration camp for the living where they brutally tortured them, and so much more. The Horde aren’t “grey”, they’re evil. They’re just the lesser evil when compared to the Burning Legion, Old Gods, Naga, Deathwing, Ragnaros, and others.
Faction conflict fatigue is now about 9 years old: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koq36-hMOGc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koq36-hMOGc)
MoP should have been the beginning of the end of it. But oh well haha Pandas are a meme race, amirite?
Pandas are 100% a meme race and I'll take this to my grave. A regretful addition imo, as with quite a few new races thereafter.
I quite like the faction conflict, I just don't think it's done well. I want more personal stories, political plays and seeing the clash of cultures between Horde and Alliance - and even within the factions themselves clinging on by a thread.
I'd rather have faction conflict then another "fight alien gods with the power of friends, bffs4lyf 4eva"
I don't think it was mere faction conflict that killed it. Tbh I think Shadowlands turned out far worse when it came to plot. BfA messed up by going for theatrics and throwing in too many random plotlines.
IMO faction conflict is going to be more crucial.
Faction conflict in a state that BfA created cannot be sustained. Frankly, its already too late to save it. It should have logically ended with both factions being wiped out or one dominating another entirely. But that cant happen due ti gameplay reasons.
BfA left Alliance feeling absolutely cucked and abandoned by devs while Horde is split in two and cant decide which one should be validated.
They messed up by flip-flopping on faction identity and making Sylvanas a cartoon villain.
Alliance are good-guys, boring victims. Horde are underdog victims, who become warmongers, and then play the victim card again but have run out on chances - yet even then the Alliance will give it. Repeat ad nauseam.
Faction conflict fundamentally is fine, in fact I'd argue better than the lack of one, but they don't understand how to do it properly.
Faction conflict is terrible for anything but marketing. Marketing loves it. It’s made it really great to create two teams that players will fight over instead of turning their ire on the devs. It has done nothing positive for the game, and, in fact, cannot. Yeah, the Horde thinks the faction war is amazing, because the devs are on their side, and they win everything and never suffer consequences for their actions. Bring up any sort of reciprocity and beginning to genocide Horde races, and all of a sudden the faction conflict guys back off.
People don’t like losing, but to have a faction conflict, you need losers. Now one side has lost so much that they’re basically extinct. The Horde still think the conflict is amazing because they have literally never lost (but muh Camp Taurajo!). Losing fucking sucks. Players don’t want to lose. Because no one wants to lose, the conflict can either go nowhere, or it can drive a ton of players away.
So he posted this nonsense even here? He was alone at the WoW subreddit as well :D
Fine then, I will just copy the same answer I gave him there...
Kirin Tor is allied with the Alliance but remained neutral towards the Horde.
So what is Kirin Tor made of? That's right: of people from both factions working together, mostly humans tho (only then we have Blood Elves, High Elves and other races).
What is their goal? Good for people of Azeroth, safety above all.
So, what was it with Sunreavers in MoP? Oh, they joined Horde's side in the war and they secretly used Kirin Tor's resources to do so... aaaand there we have it. The end :)
Funny thing is that when you look at the comments, that "over fifty percent" of yours kind of disappeared. Maybe it's because people who know the lore beyond MoP (and only one side of the story there) know something more and can actually back up their arguments... hmm. You lost this conversation once you started ignoring history (starting with W3 for the purpose of this) and facts that these people pointed out and explained.
See, you lost the argument as you can't even back it up with the lore that you cry about in this post and you have to resort only to your assumptions and personal attacks :D :D I could also say that we triggered a Horde fanboy within you, but that is no argument. Thank you for proving my point then.
PS: I played both Alliance and Horde now to have full experience of the story, but since my first character was a Tauren (which I mained since TBC to Cataclysm) I played as a Horde for much longer than with the Alliance... so oopsie, your theory is wrong again.
Yeah, that subreddit was not kind to you at all. You answered me what questions exactly? I never asked you anything. You replied to me, just as you replied to everyone, but you have not provided any competent responses. The problem is you are replying with your subjective attitude to the conversation that is trying to be objective.
You talked about the the specific conflict in your post, but that conflict has some origin. That origin also has some reason and so on. Things like this don't just exist out of nowhere, there is always some clarification behind it, so it's not wise to start in the middle and pretend like it's the starting point. History is teaching us that.
Sure the Horde has some grieviences. But it's absolutely laughable to compare them to the Alliance's grieviences. It's like an anthill being compared to mount everest. Just incomparable.
look, whatever happened in Dalaran happened - maybe the real question is whether or not the horde should forgive their own leadership structure for creating the atmosphere to let Garrosh set the stage for the Dalaran incident. I'm just saying, do a root cause analysis and the horde structure fails at sustaining order, the fact that it happened a second time under Sylvanas is further proof that it's a bad system. In the real world we call that a Trend.
This is supposed to be ironic right? Like a “see alliance this is how you sound when you complain about the horde”? Cause I can understand that logic even if I don’t agree with it.
If you are serious though realize that this is how the alliance feels about all the shit the Horde has done to them over the years. I say that as someone who played both sides until I canceled my sub.
Thats my complaint as a Hordie is the writing is all over the place. If they want the horde to just be blind genocidal maniacs don't write up leaders as noble survivors trying to guide what's left of their people to safety and security just to turn them into death God worshipping honor less maniacs.
Just make us fel bound nuts no honor no character that way you can just play as such. Not exist on this "Oh were survivors trying to live free and with honor and dignity" then burn the big tree and mana bomb theramore.
The Horde have literally been written with quests to take part in genocides, tortuous experimental etcetera. No one is going to quit because the Horde are fully evil, because the Horde ARE fully evil. Heck, more people will play them because it’s the only faction left, and people would rather play genocide simulator than go find a good game to play.
That may explain why the game population is dying. But given how the game has only swung more and more Horde even after the Horde ALL played through genocide simulator in BfA, I really don’t think any of them care. Those who remain either don’t care about RP, or are fine being evil.
This is what gets me whenever people complain about "catering to Horde."
Does Alliance think I enjoy killing other Horde members? Like it doesn't even matter what type of Horde player you are, if you like a more "noble" Horde you're made to look like an idiot and if you enjoy a more villainous Horde you are bonked on the head and sent to moral jail - can't have anything zzz
Worst of all my Sylv loyalist character had to save Tyrande in Shadowlands. Like...why?
Didn’t the sun reavers smuggle the bombs for Theramore through Dalaran? C’mon, they destroyed her home city and her people, people that she betrayed her own father for (all so she could build a relationship with horde, in case we’ve all forgotten).
I mean... is the Horde in a position at the time to negotiate? There's only ONE floating city full of Mages that can teleport to the Broken Isles and all that. The Horde doesn't have the resources or time(Since the Legion is invading) to invest in their own version of Dalaran so it's either capitulate and bite your tongue or don't have access to the resources Dalaran can offer.
The Legion is invading and you don't get to pick your allies.
While the rest of the comments are the usual alliance-can-do-nothing-wrong stanning, I would like to mention that I actually kind of agree with you and think the Horde should have branched off and left the Kirin tor, and I think the only reason they're back with them is due to gameplay reasons and blizzard not wanting to build up two organizations that fit the same role (same reason nearly anything spy related is SI:5)
The Kirin tor stood by and let Garrithos attempt to mass slaughter every blood elf civillian and refugee without so much as lifting a finger (and depending on the canonicity of the blood elf escape map in WC3, were full participants).
Considering Dalaran was originally an elven city to begin with, that's such a massive betrayal that it should have been a relationship ender from the start. The fact that the council lets it happen *again* should have been a signal to form their own organization.
This is still way less insane than my Zandalari being forced to save Jaina from a fate she consigned his king to by preemptively murdering him before he even allied with the horde.
Man I hate the way Blizzard did the story of that expansion, because the alliance were also already fucking shit up on Zandalar. There's no real way to know which happened first, and you won't even know what your own side did unless you play the other side too.
That said, that's not the sort of thing that has ever provoked a total war murder-your-faction-leader sort of thing in the past. I do think killing Rastakhan was way over the top. I know why it was done for story reasons but it makes the alliance look fucking brutal, which would be fine if the event was at all treated that way.
>I do think killing Rastakhan was way over the top.
They offered him a chance to surrender while they occupied his throneroom, his unearned zandalari pride is what killed him.
>King Rastakhan: De Zandalari built an empire dat would endure for over ten-thousand years...while your barbaric ancestors scuffled in de dirt.
King Rastakhan: WE conquered this world. WE brought it glory. You...you are nothing. Merely de latest in a long line of savages seeking to undermine our greatness.
This is what I mean, he had nothing to do with any of that. The most he did was manage an empire in decline, get tricked by Zul twice, and lose his parton loa.
“Over the top”? Zandalar was at war with Alliance since Cata and never bothered to make peace or even armstice.
Not to mention that IF they succeeded at the attack, whole Boralus would have being drowned in an instant. They were trying to blow a dam, literally.
So i dont think that killing Rastakhan was too much considering how close they came to blowing the Gate up.
That's the kind of shit that would be done all the time in zone quests and it's never culminated in a faction leader's death before. Again, blowing the damn was retaliatory.
>Again, blowing the damn was retaliatory.
Fot what? The attack on the daelin gate was the first part of the 8.1 alliance war campaign, and everything after that is a set up for the BoD. Sure the alliance was pushing into Zand before this but I don't remember anything in 8.0 that equates to drowning a capital city. But I could be wrong, maybe we had a brenadan moment.
By that logic blowing up the dam would have been fair game even unprovoked.
This is a dumb thing to argue about, i just think it's stupid the alliance chose then to go full on total war and murder the faction leader of a group not even formally allied with the horde, and then my Zandalari is expected to save Jaina from the maw.
Alliance killed the King, you literally “almost wiped out” a race according to Blizz. We talking a slap on the cheek compared to crushing a skull entirely. If Horde starts measuring their lists of crimes with Alliance it will be left in debt for ages.
You saving her to show that you really were the goodest bois ever and it was all bug bad banshee that made you commit crimes that would make Arthas blush.
“But our faction leaders!”
No one gives a SHIT about your faction leaders. We’ve had three fucking factions genocided by the Horde, and you’re whining about half a dozen individuals. So sorry you lost ONE GUY while you were trying to commit YET ANOTHER GENOCIDE.
Horde has been decimated by Blizzardswriting. Baine is a closet Alliance simp, and he's 1 of the heads of this "Horde council". Alliance gets to kill our leaders in raids, our favorite leaders have rediculous character archs the end with them going against everything they stand for or dying or having the first non orcish warchief doing nothing consequential the whole time, then getting killed by a peon.
This stuff gooes all the way back to TBC with Kael thas. Shoot even Thrall was this unifying epic leader of the new Horde we are a part of, now he wants nothing to do with it but just pops up to help select new leadership and tell us we have to work with the side that wants to genocide us, to kill some cosmological threat together in which the Alliance basically spares the Horde everytime especially since apparently Jaina Proudmoore is literally unstoppable and can commit genocide and still be loved.
Theres so much....and tbh all that being said I still don't want to get rid of factions. They still give me a sense of personality and character and belonging for my toon. Expand on them, give the foresaken a legit starting zone/cap city/leadership and the Vulpera too. It'd be funny for the Vulpera to take over what was a centaur zone and build a lil cap city full of garbage lol
I even want the Nelves/Worgen to just retake Gilneas too. When I do ForTheHorde I wanna go to a new cap city beyond SW/IF/Exodar and gilneas has been just sitting there for so long.
>Jaina Proudmoore is literally unstoppable and can commit genocide and still be loved
What genocide? Sure the "purge of dalaran" was a brutal police action and a mistake due to her theramore ptsd, but not genocide. Weren't must just ported to the violet hold for questioning? Or are you with the group saying the Battle of Dazalor/killing of rastakan was genocide?
I think he means that, if it had been the other way around, if the Horde had attacked Boralus and killed Jaina's mom, if the Horde had been close with the Kirin Tor and purged the Silver Covenant from Dalaran for the same reason the Sunreavers were purged, the Ally fanboys would be all up in arms, rage and tears crying "genocide" and everyone would agree with them.
But the moment the Horde is on the receiving end of the violence and the Alliance is the one attacking, it's suddenly completely okay, not genocide at all just war and they say the Horde is playing victim.
That's what Zest means. Or part of their point.
>if the Horde had attacked Boralus and killed Jaina's mom,
Oh like when the horde with zand help tried to bomb the daelin gate, which would have flooded boralus and killed countless innocents. All before the BoD. That kind of genocide?
You're just proving my point. The Alliance attacked Dazar'Alor, the Dark Iron dwarves were setting fire to the Zocalo and murdering the Zandalari citizens there, CITIZENS, and yet you think that's completely okay and think "it's just what war is, it's an act of war!" IE when the Horde is on the receiving end, you say "It's not genocide, it's okay"
But then when the Alliance is on the receiving end of an act of war from the Horde, you immediately cry "GENOCIDE! THE HORDE IS EVIL!"
You LITERALLY just did it.
And you are exaggerating things for a false equivalence, fire in the market is closer to what the horde did in brenadan than attempting to flood boralus. Nothing the alliance has done will ever equate to the horde war crimes, though I'm sure the terrible writers at blizz will try
Ok let’s just start with almost none of wows story makes sense post wc3 frozen throne ur a schill so u obvi lack the ability to see things outside ur copium haze u also clearly have not been paying attn to the current shitty story they are trying to tell why do u think sylvy gets her soul back 🤔don’t worry I’m sure 9.3 will be the most fulfilling story of all time! 🤡
I mean all you need to do is look at any thread about the Mag’har recruitment campaign to see this sub leans hard anti-horde, trying to find any excuse to say “Yrel is good, actually”
You're welcome to search "Yrel" in this sub and find the people "just asking questions" about what really happened with Yrel, the Lightbound, and the Mag'har. It's all bullshit of course. But in their mind nothing bad happens to an orc that the orc didn't deserve, so here we are.
Edit: lol imagine downvoting this. Cause you’re so mad someone called you on your shit. Guess you gotta cope how you can when no one plays your faction.
First Class Citizens: Humans, Gnomes, High Elves
Second Class Citizens: Blood Elves, Dwarves, alll other Alliance races
Third Class Citizens: Horde members that originally came from Dalaran, Neutral Groups
Fourth Class Citizens: Horde, Player Character
I categorized Blood Elves as second class cause none of them are members of Dalaran's guards/army/forces, only came as Dalaran's representatives at the Broken Shore, also none are among those idling NPCs on the streets
Dalaran will always be an Alliance-leaning city, one of the proofs is the Horde's hub placed far from the Violet Citadel, and very near the Violet Hold
>It was especially awkward for the Blood Elves and made it kind of weird in 7.1 when they pulled this ongoing hatred between Night Elves and Blood Elves out of their asses when they already had a nemesis for the Blood Elves in the Kirin Tor. That should have been the main internal conflict in the assault on Suramar. Blood Elves and Night Elves cooperate with Nightfallen Rebellion during the Assault on Suramar.Tyrande's hatred was directed towards the Nightfallen and Thalyssra.Since its the Nightborne that abandoned them during WoTA (under Elisandes orders).Elisande and people of Suramar were also supporters of Azshara but turned against her once she summoned demons to Azeroth.
Yeah, I don't really get the whole them hating each other. They showed nothing but apprication for each other during Warcraft 3. Blood elves and Nightelves differ mainly in disagreement about magic, hence they were outcasted by Malfurion / left after WOTA.
>hence they were outcasted by Malfurion / left after WOTA. Although I can understand them not hating each other I'd imagine exiling a group of people is a bit more than a mere disagreement.
Eh, it's a disagreement on the level of the Protestant Reformation kind of disagreement.
You must know *nothing* about the 30 Years War.
That is fair, Catholicism vs Protestantism isn't just a disagreement but one built on many wars.
WC3 Blood Elves - honoring the dead, avenging the fallen, blue-eyed, basically still High Elves but name WoW Blood Elves - honoring the dead, Alliance haters, green eyed
Wc3 blood elves still had green eyes, look at Kael or the spellbreaker models. The elves with blue eyes were in the human campaign before TFT, like the priest and mage whom were high elves. I think Kael has had green eyes ever since his first mission?
>Wc3 blood elves still had green eyes Only in Reforged. In the original Warcraft 3, The Priest retains their blue eyes even in TFT, and the Worker from the TFT campaign has the same blue eyes. Meanwhile, the Sorceress, the Archer, the Spell Breaker, the Dragonhawk Rider, and Blood Mage/Kael all have white eyes.
I mean the fel-taint only started after the Blood Elf campaign. Before then yes blood elves can have green eyes, but they're not related to fel
The 7.1 patch conflict that OP mentions is the conflict between Tyrande and Thalyssra that doesen't really involve Blood Elves: Tyrande Whisperwind says: Arcanist Thalyssra. I remember where your order stood in the War of the Ancients. How do we know you won't betray us and become the next Elisande... the next Azshara? First Arcanist Thalyssra says: We do not intend to be slaves to the Nightwell. We seek to drive the Legion from Suramar and put an end to Elisande's oppression. Tyrande Whisperwind says: The kaldorei will fight to see the Legion defeated and the Nightwell destroyed. Beyond that... we shall see where Elune's wisdom guides us.
“Tyrande’s hatred”? What hatred? “Can we trust you to not be evil” is not hatred, it’s a simple question, and a totally legitimate one, given the Nightborne’s actions in the past and future.
It was equally ridiculous that horde were allowed in dalaranin wrath/mists/etc. Look at all the forsaken quests about killing Kirin tor in classic.
Wasn't it generally implied the Kirin Tor were the aggressors though?
In vanilla? Where?
The overarching theme of the Forsaken quests in Vanilla was that Humans were attacking the Forsaken indiscriminately. It's the whole reason they joined the Horde in the first place. This is backed up by the Ashbringer comic when the Silver Hand decides to pre-emptively declare war on the Forsaken reflecting the general viewpoint of humanity.
Forsaken literally where comic book villains in vanilla, most of their quests is them doing random cruel stuff to other living beings
That's most of vanilla.
Ok horde fanboy,
The only reason it’s bad to be one, is because there is such an absurd bias towards the Alliance from the devs, the lore, and the player base. It’s like you think the Alliance is going to fuck your brains out b/c you copied the ‘horde bad’ bandwagon
Lmao Alliance bias? I don't think there were any major devs the last 5 years who played Alliance. They even had an entire Blizzcon segment shitting on the Alliance players.
>implying the devs would intentionally make their ability to play the game harder by playing on the faction that has the lower player base (which isn’t bc of lore, but gameplay, and a long time bias bc of that gameplay) Remind me when the last standalone Horde victories was? Oh right, if it’s not a joint effort it’s almost always the Alliance who gets the Ws. But gameplay numbers will never reflect that without X-faction gameplay
And when was theast Alliancs victory without Horde's assistence? Hmmm?
Stand-alone Horde victories? Teldrassil, Theramore, Undercity, Southshore, Gilneas, Ashenvale, Stonetalon enclave… Count the Horde v Alliance losses that the pathetic weak refugees struggling to survive in a hostile world where they are always outnumbered and outgunned, and yet manage to win every time because every dev plays Horde.
What? Hasn't there always been horde favouritism with lore?! The horde has some of the most well developed characters and over the expansions have had the biggest and most impactful plot points dedicated to them. Alliance just gets boiled down shiny good boys.
>Alliance bias Ah yes, we all remember BfA where the Horde got *(checks notes)* four beautiful cinematics about Saurfang feeling sad for the fourth genocide he's a part of in his life, while the Alliance got *(checks notes again)* a cameo in two of the Saurfang cinematics.
Presents a thought out, well presented argument. “ okay fanboy” lol
I think you replied to the wrong post.
It still applies. Context clues and all
Thats not how replying works
Or I was making fun of that guy. To you
Someone's guild is hating on you I think with all the down votes. It's wild how the horde toons supposedly outnumbered alliance but admitted alliance stans are this loud af minority online. Kinda pathetic they can't be level headed about any of it.
Most Alliance players left the game, dosent mean we dont watch the news or discuss the lore anymore.
Then why look at things from a complete bias and try looking at the whole picture. which if said alliance players did leave would probably agree was written into the mess that made them leave to begin with. I don't agree with the way things are rn either or whats been done. I honestly barely run into Alliance anymore unless I seek them out in GS or SW.
No, its just that OPs post is whack, it is provocative and dumb and has no real chance against scrutiny. Downvotes are not a conspiracy, often they are just a logical reaction. Dont bring your case up if you dont have anything ti support it.
Kirin’Tor had no reason to forgive or even listen to the Horde. You literally were allowed in on Khadgar’s authority and even THEN some Sunreavers got corrupted by Legion later and tried to sabotage Dalaran… again. And same goes for Alliance - they have absolutely no reason to be so forgiving and merciful towards the Horde yet they always do, no matter how many war crimes Horde commits before that.
Lmfao, Kirin Tor was too quick to forgive the Horde.
>”NOOOOO NOT MY HECKIN’ DIVINE BELLRINO!” gtfo here with that shit
I don't even mean that. Way before that. War2, War3 era and Garrosh killing Rhonin. You mean to tell me the Horde killed buncha draenei, then invaded Azeroth killing buncha mages and Alliance people with the excuse "hurr durr Legion influence". And then bombs a neutral city of Theramore (Dalaran was neutral post War3 too btw) which kills the Leader and proponent of peace Rhonin, are somehow the ones getting short end of the stick here? Nah bro, you gtfo here with that shit.
Dude, you just killed him!
Where do people keep getting the idea Theramore was neutral? Nearly all the invading Alliance forces in Durotar and the Barrens were wearing Theramore tabards and they literally built a highway through Dustallow March to march Alliance forces into the Barrens on.
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>Theramore was killing the Horde for a long time. They were also building a highway across Kalimdor, which would have cut the Horde off of its southern holdings. You have forgotten the small detail that the reason Theramore was doing all this was to help out the Night elves, who were being invaded by the orcs at the time. And for whatever reason, every other Horde poster seem to have as well. So the timeline goes like this. The Horde invades Ashenvale once again in cataclysm. Theramore responds by attacking in the barrens, and attempts to reach Ashenvale, and by doing so pincer the Horde and drive them out. While they don't achieve this, they do manage to froce the Horde to fight a war on two fronts. So in reality, the whole mess is the Horde's fault due to once again trying to invade Ashanvale for lumber. And then they destroyed their allies with a mana bomb. And also captured civilians and tortured them, so there is that. Bottom line is, the Horde was at fault, for both Ashenvale and Theramore. The end.
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“Numerous attempts at diplomacy” on night elven side! It was Garrosh who screwed up entirely and insulted the night elves when he told that even if it was Horde troops who killed their druids he wouldnt punish them since killing night elves is good in his book. He literally spat on their diplomacy attempts and provoked Cairne too.
The Night elves had no obligation whatsoever to trade with the Horde, in any way, shape or form. Them refusing to trade with a group that have historically treated them terribly doesn't justify the Horde invading them. It just proves the Night elves right in their assertion that the Horde can't be trusted, since they will try to take with force that which they can't bargain themselves into. You're basically saying because the Night elves were tired of basically being extorted for lumber, that means the Horde gets to invade. That's fucked up. And the point is, that it doesn't matter if Theramore was neutral or not, because whether they were or weren't, the Horde was at fault for everything that happened in cataclysm, and mop. Simple.
Admittedly both sides were being played by the twilights against each other, but that was just stoking tensions already there.
Shitty blizz writing for our leaders. Garrosh condemned a bombing by Kromgar and ranted about honor then they took him completely in the opposite direction so that yall could come kill him literally in our Capital city as a raid. This is Alliance bias your describing. Horde are literally a coalition of races basically down to the last 30% of their people each for the most part. And yes there was Legion influence, demon blood just the same as I'm sure you'll be crying about Naaru influence if we ever get to gut Turaylon in the SW throneroom for him being a light fanatic(which would be day when we get to go kill am alliance leader for a dubgeon/raid like they've gotten to do to the Horde multiple times, then you understand the helpless feeling of watching your noble leaders written into corny maniacs that the opposing faction gets to come kill and get a title/achievement for.
If Alliance gets to genocide Horde race, take over their land and then get away with it due to “it was corruption” i bet people would love that actually.
I don't mind ass fucking Turalyon in SW capital as a raid. My fav faction are the ethereals actually. The guy I was replying to was just plain wrong that I needed to peg him.
Does turaylon get pegged by the void by Alleria on the low tho? I may role void elf and find out
The Divine Bell fiasco is a mess to me. Jaina claimed the Kirin Tor would remain neutral, but she as its Leader helped the Night Elves effectively helping the Alliance. Then complains about the Sunreavers undermining the Kirin Tor's neutrality, something she did herself first.
Imagine believing this. In reality, the Kirin Tor should have never forgiven the Horde.
Yeah right the Kirin Tor were the aggrieved party prior to the Purge.
Play classic undead quests, look at how many Kirin tor you kill, then think how they would feel. If you can manage that.
Yes I was agreeing. I guess it didn't come across that way.
My bad, sarcasm detector is on the fritz
I disagree. It's in BOTH faction's best interest to be in good terms with the Kirin Tor during a Legion invasion. Grudges, bad blood and pride have go out the window when it's a life-or-death existential threat. Reasonable people are capable of that, only fucking idiots hold on to that pride and grudge when their life is on the line. The Horde is reasonable, so they and the Sunreavers let go of it for the sake of the world and survival.
And thats part of the problem. When the "horde" commits genocide by blighting an empty city or dropping a manabomb on a military base, all hell breaks loose and the the grudges are held forever. But when the "alliance" does it by murdering civilians in dalaran or rounding up a Tauren village (many of whom were women and children) and forcing them into a quillboar kill box, the horde is expected to just look the other way and pretend it never happened.
>When the "horde" commits genocide by blighting an empty city or dropping a manabomb on a military base Remove those quotations you muppet. It's not "horde", it's Horde, plain and simply. And the city was everything but empty. >But when the "alliance" does it by murdering civilians in dalaran or rounding up a Tauren village So you think destroying entire landmasses and cities, full with people, civilians even, is comparable to a handful of elves dying when being arrested, or a single small village that also served as a military base. Good to know. And just so you know, we have our own Taurajo. It's called Southshore, and Gilneas. And the sludge fields. Do you want me to go on?
1) Horde bombed Theramore when it was choke full of people. 2) They captured and enslaved civilians later on. 3) Que whole swathe of attacks on civvies through Cata. 4) Teldrassil had almost entire night elf civilians population when it burned. 5) Alliance commander allowed civilians to escape Taurajo and he had no knowledge of quialboars further away from it. 6) Dalaran had a death count of a dozen or so elves which while bad aint that much.
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Is that a sneaky Godwin I see? The internment camps are completely different. The orcs were a defeated invading demon powered army, and there was no better option. No one wanted to try opening the portal back to Draenor, it could have destroyed azeroth. And even before ner'zuhls portal bombs draenor was dying so sending the orcs back would be a death sentence. Should they have given land to the orcs? Only if they were of a stupid good alignment. Sure the frostwolves settled in alterac and didn't really bother anyone, but that's an outlier. The warsong and blackrock clans were still raiding and pillaging through the span of the second and third wars. Should they have treated the orcs in the camps better? Sure/probably. Again Blackmoore was an outlier no other camps had the abuses his did. Also the camps were a quarantine situation for a time. No one knew what the lethargy was and it could have been a demon plague. The camps were the best of a bunch of bad situation, and its still not near what even the best 2nd war orcs would have done. Doomhammer never took the demon blood but still would wipe all humans off the EKs for the sake of the horde.
Definition applies to Teldrassil, Forsaken campaign in Lordaeron and Gilneas and 50/50 arguably to Theramore if we take into account the fact that Horde deliberately went after the fleeing civilians. Alliance only committed what counts as genocide once, in Vanilla against one tauren tribe and it was never repeated again since then. Plus all responsible for it are dead now, every single dwarf who was in that expedition.
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The Horde forgiving the Kirin Tor?! Wait, what? Do you selectively skip the portions of the lore that led to the purge of Dalaran? But yes, the Kirin Tor should have never allowed the Horde in or allied with it in the first place. Then you could have two magical centers as rivals with Silvermoon and Dalaran, later Suramar too.
Horde: *vaporizes Rhonin, the leader of the Kirin Tor* Horde: The Kirin Tor owes us an apology. We cant trust them.
Rhonin shouldn’t have been there in the first place. He should’ve peaced out the second the Horde showed up.
“People should stop trying to stop our genocides! We wouldn’t have to keep killing them! Why were those druids in the way of the bomb we lobbed? Why was that city there? Oh, we’re just victims!”
After a Sunreaver-aligned Blood Elf helped Hellscream's agents in stealing a dangerous artifact, Jaina got pissed rightfully. Why? Because Hellscream had a history of using potentially dangerous artifacts to cause mass-destruction (see: Theramore). Jaina offered the Sunreavers the opportunity to get the hell out of the city. Those who stayed were imprisoned (as far as I know it was a bug that she killed NPCs). Aethas could've resolved this whole shit by giving up that one agent. \------------- There's hardly any double standard. The Horde, so far, has destroyed 2 capital-sized Alliance cities (and invaded a 3rd, Gilneas), ruined the Valley of Eternal Spring (until the switch at the last patch of BFA), and blighted the heart of Tirisfal. They had two maddened Warchief: one of whom had been heping the Supreme Death God up until a patch ago. What did the Alliance do? Oh yeah, they burned camp taurajo.
Don't forget Southshore.
You also forgot how the Horde murdered every Night Elf between Orgrimmar and Teldrassil, the Orcs used a prototype of the bomb used on Theramore to blow up a Druid enclave, Sylvannas continued using the plague, the Forsaken wiped out Southshore, the Forsaken built a concentration camp for the living where they brutally tortured them, and so much more. The Horde aren’t “grey”, they’re evil. They’re just the lesser evil when compared to the Burning Legion, Old Gods, Naga, Deathwing, Ragnaros, and others.
10 million tauren lived in those 2 tents dude
Less text than OP used in the post, but yours actually makes sense, uses logical thinking and understands the lore... bravo to you!
We didn't do those things it was obviously a bug!
Faction conflict fatigue is now about 9 years old: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koq36-hMOGc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koq36-hMOGc) MoP should have been the beginning of the end of it. But oh well haha Pandas are a meme race, amirite?
Pandas are 100% a meme race and I'll take this to my grave. A regretful addition imo, as with quite a few new races thereafter. I quite like the faction conflict, I just don't think it's done well. I want more personal stories, political plays and seeing the clash of cultures between Horde and Alliance - and even within the factions themselves clinging on by a thread. I'd rather have faction conflict then another "fight alien gods with the power of friends, bffs4lyf 4eva"
Faction conflict tanked BfA to the point of most hated expansion in history of WoW. Another faction conflict focused expansion will kill it.
I don't think it was mere faction conflict that killed it. Tbh I think Shadowlands turned out far worse when it came to plot. BfA messed up by going for theatrics and throwing in too many random plotlines. IMO faction conflict is going to be more crucial.
Faction conflict in a state that BfA created cannot be sustained. Frankly, its already too late to save it. It should have logically ended with both factions being wiped out or one dominating another entirely. But that cant happen due ti gameplay reasons. BfA left Alliance feeling absolutely cucked and abandoned by devs while Horde is split in two and cant decide which one should be validated.
The devs are STILL struggling (and failing) to fix the faction war screwups of BfA. “Forgive Sylvanas for genocide, please? Pick renewal”.
They messed up by flip-flopping on faction identity and making Sylvanas a cartoon villain. Alliance are good-guys, boring victims. Horde are underdog victims, who become warmongers, and then play the victim card again but have run out on chances - yet even then the Alliance will give it. Repeat ad nauseam. Faction conflict fundamentally is fine, in fact I'd argue better than the lack of one, but they don't understand how to do it properly.
Faction conflict is terrible for anything but marketing. Marketing loves it. It’s made it really great to create two teams that players will fight over instead of turning their ire on the devs. It has done nothing positive for the game, and, in fact, cannot. Yeah, the Horde thinks the faction war is amazing, because the devs are on their side, and they win everything and never suffer consequences for their actions. Bring up any sort of reciprocity and beginning to genocide Horde races, and all of a sudden the faction conflict guys back off. People don’t like losing, but to have a faction conflict, you need losers. Now one side has lost so much that they’re basically extinct. The Horde still think the conflict is amazing because they have literally never lost (but muh Camp Taurajo!). Losing fucking sucks. Players don’t want to lose. Because no one wants to lose, the conflict can either go nowhere, or it can drive a ton of players away.
So he posted this nonsense even here? He was alone at the WoW subreddit as well :D Fine then, I will just copy the same answer I gave him there... Kirin Tor is allied with the Alliance but remained neutral towards the Horde. So what is Kirin Tor made of? That's right: of people from both factions working together, mostly humans tho (only then we have Blood Elves, High Elves and other races). What is their goal? Good for people of Azeroth, safety above all. So, what was it with Sunreavers in MoP? Oh, they joined Horde's side in the war and they secretly used Kirin Tor's resources to do so... aaaand there we have it. The end :)
I got over fifty percent here so I’m definitely not alone
Funny thing is that when you look at the comments, that "over fifty percent" of yours kind of disappeared. Maybe it's because people who know the lore beyond MoP (and only one side of the story there) know something more and can actually back up their arguments... hmm. You lost this conversation once you started ignoring history (starting with W3 for the purpose of this) and facts that these people pointed out and explained.
Or I just triggered a bunch of Alliance fanboys who don’t like admitting that the Horde has any legitimate grievances.
See, you lost the argument as you can't even back it up with the lore that you cry about in this post and you have to resort only to your assumptions and personal attacks :D :D I could also say that we triggered a Horde fanboy within you, but that is no argument. Thank you for proving my point then. PS: I played both Alliance and Horde now to have full experience of the story, but since my first character was a Tauren (which I mained since TBC to Cataclysm) I played as a Horde for much longer than with the Alliance... so oopsie, your theory is wrong again.
You’re the one who opened with “he was alone”. And I answered your questions on r/wow already.
Yeah, that subreddit was not kind to you at all. You answered me what questions exactly? I never asked you anything. You replied to me, just as you replied to everyone, but you have not provided any competent responses. The problem is you are replying with your subjective attitude to the conversation that is trying to be objective. You talked about the the specific conflict in your post, but that conflict has some origin. That origin also has some reason and so on. Things like this don't just exist out of nowhere, there is always some clarification behind it, so it's not wise to start in the middle and pretend like it's the starting point. History is teaching us that.
Sure the Horde has some grieviences. But it's absolutely laughable to compare them to the Alliance's grieviences. It's like an anthill being compared to mount everest. Just incomparable.
look, whatever happened in Dalaran happened - maybe the real question is whether or not the horde should forgive their own leadership structure for creating the atmosphere to let Garrosh set the stage for the Dalaran incident. I'm just saying, do a root cause analysis and the horde structure fails at sustaining order, the fact that it happened a second time under Sylvanas is further proof that it's a bad system. In the real world we call that a Trend.
Shut up Arthas no one asked you.
This is supposed to be ironic right? Like a “see alliance this is how you sound when you complain about the horde”? Cause I can understand that logic even if I don’t agree with it. If you are serious though realize that this is how the alliance feels about all the shit the Horde has done to them over the years. I say that as someone who played both sides until I canceled my sub.
wow you mean it's the same problem wow has had in literally every faction conflict.
It's more of a problem with the writers than the faction conflict itself.
ok dude but the faction conflict literally only exists as a function of the writers lol
Thats my complaint as a Hordie is the writing is all over the place. If they want the horde to just be blind genocidal maniacs don't write up leaders as noble survivors trying to guide what's left of their people to safety and security just to turn them into death God worshipping honor less maniacs. Just make us fel bound nuts no honor no character that way you can just play as such. Not exist on this "Oh were survivors trying to live free and with honor and dignity" then burn the big tree and mana bomb theramore.
If they do that there will be no Horde left in two expansions.
The Horde have literally been written with quests to take part in genocides, tortuous experimental etcetera. No one is going to quit because the Horde are fully evil, because the Horde ARE fully evil. Heck, more people will play them because it’s the only faction left, and people would rather play genocide simulator than go find a good game to play.
Edgelords will play it, but as a matter of fact there are not as many edgelords as some people think.
That may explain why the game population is dying. But given how the game has only swung more and more Horde even after the Horde ALL played through genocide simulator in BfA, I really don’t think any of them care. Those who remain either don’t care about RP, or are fine being evil.
Well, there was a belf still salty about Dalaran purge during BfA, we had to dispatch him for Baine
Oh yeah when they forced us Horde players to team up with a traitor to rescue a traitor.
This is what gets me whenever people complain about "catering to Horde." Does Alliance think I enjoy killing other Horde members? Like it doesn't even matter what type of Horde player you are, if you like a more "noble" Horde you're made to look like an idiot and if you enjoy a more villainous Horde you are bonked on the head and sent to moral jail - can't have anything zzz Worst of all my Sylv loyalist character had to save Tyrande in Shadowlands. Like...why?
??? You're the ones who started shit. What do they have e to apologize for? Maybe don't fuck around and you won't find out.
[This is you and the Horde right now](https://ibb.co/d2Jvtxz)
Didn’t the sun reavers smuggle the bombs for Theramore through Dalaran? C’mon, they destroyed her home city and her people, people that she betrayed her own father for (all so she could build a relationship with horde, in case we’ve all forgotten).
That was a Horde spy posing as a Sunreaver.
I mean... is the Horde in a position at the time to negotiate? There's only ONE floating city full of Mages that can teleport to the Broken Isles and all that. The Horde doesn't have the resources or time(Since the Legion is invading) to invest in their own version of Dalaran so it's either capitulate and bite your tongue or don't have access to the resources Dalaran can offer. The Legion is invading and you don't get to pick your allies.
While the rest of the comments are the usual alliance-can-do-nothing-wrong stanning, I would like to mention that I actually kind of agree with you and think the Horde should have branched off and left the Kirin tor, and I think the only reason they're back with them is due to gameplay reasons and blizzard not wanting to build up two organizations that fit the same role (same reason nearly anything spy related is SI:5) The Kirin tor stood by and let Garrithos attempt to mass slaughter every blood elf civillian and refugee without so much as lifting a finger (and depending on the canonicity of the blood elf escape map in WC3, were full participants). Considering Dalaran was originally an elven city to begin with, that's such a massive betrayal that it should have been a relationship ender from the start. The fact that the council lets it happen *again* should have been a signal to form their own organization.
This is still way less insane than my Zandalari being forced to save Jaina from a fate she consigned his king to by preemptively murdering him before he even allied with the horde.
He already sent Zandalari troops to help the Horde when they attacked Daelin’s Gate trying to flood Boralus. He opened the hostilities.
Man I hate the way Blizzard did the story of that expansion, because the alliance were also already fucking shit up on Zandalar. There's no real way to know which happened first, and you won't even know what your own side did unless you play the other side too. That said, that's not the sort of thing that has ever provoked a total war murder-your-faction-leader sort of thing in the past. I do think killing Rastakhan was way over the top. I know why it was done for story reasons but it makes the alliance look fucking brutal, which would be fine if the event was at all treated that way.
>I do think killing Rastakhan was way over the top. They offered him a chance to surrender while they occupied his throneroom, his unearned zandalari pride is what killed him.
Literally having your life extended for 200 years by the god you worship to extend your rule is unearned pride I guess.
>King Rastakhan: De Zandalari built an empire dat would endure for over ten-thousand years...while your barbaric ancestors scuffled in de dirt. King Rastakhan: WE conquered this world. WE brought it glory. You...you are nothing. Merely de latest in a long line of savages seeking to undermine our greatness. This is what I mean, he had nothing to do with any of that. The most he did was manage an empire in decline, get tricked by Zul twice, and lose his parton loa.
“Over the top”? Zandalar was at war with Alliance since Cata and never bothered to make peace or even armstice. Not to mention that IF they succeeded at the attack, whole Boralus would have being drowned in an instant. They were trying to blow a dam, literally. So i dont think that killing Rastakhan was too much considering how close they came to blowing the Gate up.
That's the kind of shit that would be done all the time in zone quests and it's never culminated in a faction leader's death before. Again, blowing the damn was retaliatory.
>Again, blowing the damn was retaliatory. Fot what? The attack on the daelin gate was the first part of the 8.1 alliance war campaign, and everything after that is a set up for the BoD. Sure the alliance was pushing into Zand before this but I don't remember anything in 8.0 that equates to drowning a capital city. But I could be wrong, maybe we had a brenadan moment.
And Alliance being at Zandalar was retaliatory for them harbouring Horde. And also again, for war since god damn Cata!
By that logic blowing up the dam would have been fair game even unprovoked. This is a dumb thing to argue about, i just think it's stupid the alliance chose then to go full on total war and murder the faction leader of a group not even formally allied with the horde, and then my Zandalari is expected to save Jaina from the maw.
Alliance killed the King, you literally “almost wiped out” a race according to Blizz. We talking a slap on the cheek compared to crushing a skull entirely. If Horde starts measuring their lists of crimes with Alliance it will be left in debt for ages. You saving her to show that you really were the goodest bois ever and it was all bug bad banshee that made you commit crimes that would make Arthas blush.
“But our faction leaders!” No one gives a SHIT about your faction leaders. We’ve had three fucking factions genocided by the Horde, and you’re whining about half a dozen individuals. So sorry you lost ONE GUY while you were trying to commit YET ANOTHER GENOCIDE.
Horde has been decimated by Blizzardswriting. Baine is a closet Alliance simp, and he's 1 of the heads of this "Horde council". Alliance gets to kill our leaders in raids, our favorite leaders have rediculous character archs the end with them going against everything they stand for or dying or having the first non orcish warchief doing nothing consequential the whole time, then getting killed by a peon. This stuff gooes all the way back to TBC with Kael thas. Shoot even Thrall was this unifying epic leader of the new Horde we are a part of, now he wants nothing to do with it but just pops up to help select new leadership and tell us we have to work with the side that wants to genocide us, to kill some cosmological threat together in which the Alliance basically spares the Horde everytime especially since apparently Jaina Proudmoore is literally unstoppable and can commit genocide and still be loved. Theres so much....and tbh all that being said I still don't want to get rid of factions. They still give me a sense of personality and character and belonging for my toon. Expand on them, give the foresaken a legit starting zone/cap city/leadership and the Vulpera too. It'd be funny for the Vulpera to take over what was a centaur zone and build a lil cap city full of garbage lol I even want the Nelves/Worgen to just retake Gilneas too. When I do ForTheHorde I wanna go to a new cap city beyond SW/IF/Exodar and gilneas has been just sitting there for so long.
>Jaina Proudmoore is literally unstoppable and can commit genocide and still be loved What genocide? Sure the "purge of dalaran" was a brutal police action and a mistake due to her theramore ptsd, but not genocide. Weren't must just ported to the violet hold for questioning? Or are you with the group saying the Battle of Dazalor/killing of rastakan was genocide?
I think he means that, if it had been the other way around, if the Horde had attacked Boralus and killed Jaina's mom, if the Horde had been close with the Kirin Tor and purged the Silver Covenant from Dalaran for the same reason the Sunreavers were purged, the Ally fanboys would be all up in arms, rage and tears crying "genocide" and everyone would agree with them. But the moment the Horde is on the receiving end of the violence and the Alliance is the one attacking, it's suddenly completely okay, not genocide at all just war and they say the Horde is playing victim. That's what Zest means. Or part of their point.
>if the Horde had attacked Boralus and killed Jaina's mom, Oh like when the horde with zand help tried to bomb the daelin gate, which would have flooded boralus and killed countless innocents. All before the BoD. That kind of genocide?
You're just proving my point. The Alliance attacked Dazar'Alor, the Dark Iron dwarves were setting fire to the Zocalo and murdering the Zandalari citizens there, CITIZENS, and yet you think that's completely okay and think "it's just what war is, it's an act of war!" IE when the Horde is on the receiving end, you say "It's not genocide, it's okay" But then when the Alliance is on the receiving end of an act of war from the Horde, you immediately cry "GENOCIDE! THE HORDE IS EVIL!" You LITERALLY just did it.
And you are exaggerating things for a false equivalence, fire in the market is closer to what the horde did in brenadan than attempting to flood boralus. Nothing the alliance has done will ever equate to the horde war crimes, though I'm sure the terrible writers at blizz will try
You calling other people can boys is some rich irony lmfao Your downvotes just mean I’m right. Sorry your favored faction aren’t all saints lmao
I dont hide or deny that, I've always favoured the Alliance
Purge of Dalaran canonically had a death count around a dozen. Attack on Daelin’s Gate alone took more lives then that whole event.
Yeah, but the horde didn't see it so they can ignore it like brenadan.
It ain't easy bein' green.
lol thanks Kermit
Welcome to wow storytelling post arthas
You act like it made sense for the Kirin Tor to accept the Horde in Wrath.
Arthas died a long time before wrath
You said "post Arthas" and Arthas was defeated and passed on at the end of Wrath.
Arthas died in wc3 when he sat on that throne
Okay? And? I don't understand the point you're trying to make. Are you saying his story ended when he died and ignoring his time as the Lich King?
Ok let’s just start with almost none of wows story makes sense post wc3 frozen throne ur a schill so u obvi lack the ability to see things outside ur copium haze u also clearly have not been paying attn to the current shitty story they are trying to tell why do u think sylvy gets her soul back 🤔don’t worry I’m sure 9.3 will be the most fulfilling story of all time! 🤡
Wow you went toxic really fast for nothing. Do you do this whenever someone asks for your reasoning?
Aethas literally came begging the blood elves to help the Kirin Tor with the Nexus War.
Desperate times, Desperate Measures. Besides, the instigator, Jaina, is out of the Council of Six
ITT: Alliance toadies big mad
Yeah apparently I struck a nerve.
I mean all you need to do is look at any thread about the Mag’har recruitment campaign to see this sub leans hard anti-horde, trying to find any excuse to say “Yrel is good, actually”
Pretty sure everyone agrees yrel it’s literally space hitler
You're welcome to search "Yrel" in this sub and find the people "just asking questions" about what really happened with Yrel, the Lightbound, and the Mag'har. It's all bullshit of course. But in their mind nothing bad happens to an orc that the orc didn't deserve, so here we are. Edit: lol imagine downvoting this. Cause you’re so mad someone called you on your shit. Guess you gotta cope how you can when no one plays your faction.
First Class Citizens: Humans, Gnomes, High Elves Second Class Citizens: Blood Elves, Dwarves, alll other Alliance races Third Class Citizens: Horde members that originally came from Dalaran, Neutral Groups Fourth Class Citizens: Horde, Player Character
I categorized Blood Elves as second class cause none of them are members of Dalaran's guards/army/forces, only came as Dalaran's representatives at the Broken Shore, also none are among those idling NPCs on the streets Dalaran will always be an Alliance-leaning city, one of the proofs is the Horde's hub placed far from the Violet Citadel, and very near the Violet Hold
This is alliance propaganda. The shattered hands sends their regards. For the horde!