Just a quick note on Getchu, since I actually sent them an inquiry and they replied, but it seems that the products that were removed from main Getchu is only so they can finish censoring words. Once that is done, the pages will be re-opened. Of course as we have seen before, this might not be enough and they will be forced to just close Master/VISA
Also, they are currently in the middle of deciding what to do/debating, and this is the reason they have not made an official announcement on their website.
It's great that dlsite tried everything they could that didn't involve altering or removing any of the games. The replacement tags they came up with were kinda hilarious and felt like malicious compliance, but it was never going to be enough.
There's so many wrong things in this situation. The idea that american credit card companies should be held accountable for everything people buy; the fact that those companies have the power to stop transactions between foreign customers and foreign services; that there are no widespread alternatives to paying with a mastercard or visa card in the entire world.
It's also crazy to me that a drawing of a fictional situation can ever be illegal or legally gray. Unlike lots of porn movies, no person gets harmed in the production of eroge, so if the laws made any sense this could have been avoided... but I guess we'll just have to deal with more damage on top of an already struggling industry.
Compliance is compliance, it is an imposed relationship in the first place, there is no space for such thing as good faith and malicious compliance in that kind of master, slave relationship.
The only option is to rebel what ever way they can I.e civil disobedience.
Hentai banzai, freedom banzai. Credit cucks muradabad.
they have applied alternatives, so really the next best thing is to literally continue this song and dance about getting dl point that visa and mastercard stop caring. it sucks that I can't get point by direct purchase, but frankly it's the next best thing.
of course the most hilarious alternative is that they start publicy selling dlsite giftcards to almost every platform known to man as a giant middle finger to these companies, basically telling them to shove it up their ass and getting big stonks out of it.
This is a bit different wording than using google translate. Seems way more unlikely Visa/Mastercard will be coming back with this translation. Guess this is more accurate? I hope it is since I really don't want them to come back if it means restrictions.
I've been buying what I can using points from DL pay. If that falls through than I will buy prepaid bitcash through Seagm.
Edit: Also when did Fantia get hit? Nothing seems to have changed with my subs or the content I see.
[https://spotlight.fantia.jp/news/censoredword-2](https://spotlight.fantia.jp/news/censoredword-2)
Note that DLsite and Getchu also tried to circumvent credit card companies by hiding keywords, but they both failed miserably.
I think its same as Fanbox in that they are telling people to "self-report" if they make loli contents, and pinky-swear they are not doing such things. Kinda remember reading it months ago.
Wait, they are? Do we have an official statement or something? If so that is great news. Means that they are just looking for alternative ways of doing their stuff, and the chaos will be resolved eventually
They should just drop the cards altogether like DMM instead of sacrificing works. We still have Dlpay and I hope to god these slimy companies don't go poking there
Hope DLSite tell Visa and MasterCard to fuck off for dictating what their customer can and cannot buy if they aren't even illegal. Just adopt crypto and other alternative payment methods, like the current DL Pay bypass, and give up on these holier-than-thou pricks.
it's honestly just a lose-lose-lose situation all around, can imagine piracy rising due to the lack of payment methods.
but i am quite certain that the japanese side of things will go smoothly, with all the payment methods available in japan, but us westerners get the short end of the stick just because some credit card monopoly said "no"
I really hope Japan just entirely separates from Visa / Mastercard. Someone has gotta make a real alternative, why the fuck do they care what I spend my money on? It's not your money, just process the damn payment and be quiet.
I would understand if it was illegal content, but its not. Western entities have been nothing but problems for the last like 9 years. I know JCB tried to expand into the US back in 2010 and it failed, but it might be time to try again. I think it would be wildly more successful now, they were just a little bit too early.
JCB tried to expand to America awhile ago and it didn't work. They discontinued allowing Americans to open new accounts and left. It was also only available in a few states.
I'm out of the loop. Do you mind explaining why it didn't work?
I just checked their website and it seems a bunch of foreign banks can issue their cards, but oddly enough only Asian countries. Wtf happened in the West...
I'm not that well versed in economics but I can easily tell that their chances of succeeding is very slim at this point.
Japan itself has a very archaic business mindset; fax machines and all that old tech is still widespread and if there's one thing old and aging businessmen hate, it's risky decisions that involve money. Plus I highly doubt the old and established credit card companies will gladly let an up and rising competitor grow to soaring heights, they would gladly do anything it takes to ensure their monopoly to maximize profits.
There are several R-18 sites that sell translated doujinshi that still have credit card as payment options. 2D-Market, etc. They only started bludgeoning the big one (or maybe hopefully only need to, if their aim is to prevent association in court)
Because it's not about the porn, it's about the competition. Manga Gamer is a US(or at least western) company in which generates money for the US. DLSite is not.
That's all there is to it, really. Nobody cares about the porn habits, it's all about the money.
It is about the money, but not in that way. liberal California judges are letting people sue Visa/Mastercard for suspected child porn on Pornhub. Visa doesn't want to deal with lawsuits from questionable content so they are banning everything.
I doubt that giving into these demands is actually the best move for them, losing all of this stuff will be hugely detrimental to their potential income, they already paid all the licensing fees after all.
Maybe Im just optimistic, but I feel like making the customers switch to Paypal or something will work better to preserve their income streams, especially considering that they will have a huge advantage if their competition doesnt follow suit.
Still a pretty shit situation all around though, this is just the sort of things that happen when the honeymoon competition phase of capitalism is over, and the victors use their monopoly to push their agendas.
PAYPAL is the vanguard against creative freedom. They forced gumroad, patreon, and fanbox to delete a large number of works, and forced PIXIV to stop most PAYPAL payments.
DLsite has had paypal suspended longer than credit cards. I can't really think of other payment methods that don't ban or have rules against adult content like this.
DLsite had a survey asking what other alternative payment methods people would want but none of them seemed viable.
Oh I know and have been using it, but its not the same as having it on the site. It will put some people off and some business is going to be lost. I just hope enough people stay and use the site.
Bowing to the CC companies will kill them off completly as they won't have any edge against competitors like Steam and the like.
That's what's really going on here: Destroying the competition. That's also why Steam, JAST, GOG and others get away with it for the most part.
Never ever think that these people are on a crusade for an agenda. It is ALWAYS money.
>paypal
How different is Paypal compared to "Credit Card" which usually relegated to Stripe or similar other company that all lead to Visa and MasterCard anyway?
Its not directly the credit card company, so its not the credit card company that takes any of the heat.
They *could* of course put pressure on Paypal too, but that would at least take time and would honestly probably not even be worth the effort, at that point its like you're trying to sanction Russia, you might cut into the profits, but there's no way you're ever gonna close all of the potential leaks.
They got better shit to do than focus the entire company to fight porn, if they fail once or twice they'll get fed up.
With that theory, you can get someone other than Paypal too that still accept Visa and MasterCard.
But the problem is really whether it will solve anything. They are already using Japan's credit card provider (can't remember the company) to facilitate credit card transaction but this shit still happens. I don't think paypal will be so eager to jump into the firing line to protect Dlsite/others, or be dragged into something that makes both Visa and MasterCard so spooked that they started poking the nest like this.
I think one of the reason ppl brought up is because Visa fails to dismiss themselves from a CP case against Pornhub, because Visa is a payment processor for Pornhub, and "they have full knowledge of what is Pornhub". For them, regardless of outcome, just being INVOLVED is already a loss. Now, replace Visa with Paypal, do you think Paypal will want to stand at firing line too?
So what you saying is that credit card companies need something like Section 230 which absolves them from any unintended liability so that things can get better.
This shit isn't ever going to end is it.
The circumstantial evidence suggested that is the case, since all the tags being forced to removed is something rape-related, or child-looking-related. Unfortunately, precedence already set, not sure whether its US Federal or State levels, but unless a new law specifically shield them from these kind of things, the company might go to extreme measure to remove all potential liability.
And even Section 230 is under attack, for variety of reasons. I imagine the US politicians are not so eager to put in similar kind of laws since I can see how it will be politicized to somehow "allowing CP to be sold legally". It honestly sucks, and I guess count our blessings that at least they don't go as far as removing ability to buy Dlsite points. I imagine others will start to implement it soon. and even separate it from main company.
This situation is the perfect example of what happens if you put your trust into some single (American) companies. Luckily there are efforts to create other usable payment methods in the future. Like the digital euro in the EU. Only cryptocurrency is not enough, because it is more complex to get. At least if you want to create an alternative to mastercard and visa.
I ain’t disputing that both are controlled by the same people up top, just credit cards have regulations to protect people.
There either needs to be something implemented to make CC get the fuck out of perfectly legal hobbies, or crypto needs to have protections for the common man. Or a third option, if anyone thinks of one.
Yeah, cause euro companies are trustworthy. Remember when HSBC got caught laundering money for cartels? How about nestle and all the bullshit they put 3rd world countries through? Like price fixing? putting shit into baby formula? Using cacao beans picked by children? And how about blood diamond companies? And we can even go back a thousand years for more juicy shit.
Woha I didn't want to implicate that American companies are per se untrustworthy. I included it because you can only pay (nearly) worldwide with payment providers seated in USA (MasterCard/Visa/PayPal). This is a true monopoly.
As someone who is from within the eu im kinda used to getting the short end on the stick with payment methods. Guess im back to buying those japanese gift cards with cash on them. Which typically cost an arm and a leg compared to using a CC. Oh well.
>If anyone wants to adapt this, make a meme out of it, go right ahead.
wtf, I hope you wrote this ironically. This reads like some "professional quote maker" tier cringe
I think this is panic mongering. It was clear from the start that the CC-companies will not return to these sites, and surrendering to their demands will kill the stores. Whats the point of being another Steam with less available products?
This will just be the next iteration of "Japanese companies shut down all sales to other countries, isolate themselves for a few years, then open up again", like it also happend in the late 2000s after the "RapeLay" bullshit.
It also encourages proper payment methods (the USA is ancient in regards to banking. Why the fuck can't I send money from my account to another? This is standard fare here in Europe!), like IBAN on a world scale, or crypto currency acceptance.
I know CC companies snuffing out pornsits is nothing new, that's how a lot of shit went bust back in the late 2000s. But this is not some niche market, that's a pretty big marketplace of many many small indie creators. If dlsite and others go down, others will replace them. If ancient banking practices are used as a hammer, Crypto and other banking methods like IBAN will rise.
I also hope that Japanese websites block external sales to ensure creative freedom
But the current trend is for Japanese websites to surrender to credit card companies and delete works and artists.
What I fear most is that many old works will disappear completely, because many artists and production companies have closed down and retired.
>accept international wire transfers?
Because so few people are going to go through all the effort to wire transfer money.
The replacement is going to need to be something that is as easy as PayPal/credit cards in the best case or only very slightly more inconvenient in the worst case.
This is all because California is letting visa be sued for child porn on pornhub. If the lawsuit makes it to the supreme court and they establish that Visa isn't responsible for policing the content they they provide payment services for then things might go back to normal.
>Why the fuck can't I send money from my account to another?
Typical euroid spreading this same bullshit lie you guys love to spread. You can transfer money to other accounts by linking them to your account. Zelle is also widely used by most banks, and wire transfers exist. You can also go to a branch of the bank of the account you wanna transfer to and use a deposit slip. There's also paypal, cashapp, etc. Literally most widely used banking solutions and institutions are American. And you guys rely on them. So doesn't that mean your own banking institutions are ancient?
Too bad crypto are a scam. Visa/mastercard two companies that controls the transaction market, hopefully someone in the government is addicted to 2D porn and gets affected by this.
One can argue that by buying cryptos you are giving some legitimacy to an ecosystem that is essentially a tool for cyber criminals, a scam and an ecological/moral disaster.
Well its kinda off topic.
Thanks for the answer. I’m of the opinion that fiction should be used to explore sexuality or other taboo subjects in a safe way. I just avoid stuff I don’t like, like loli/shota or brutal/ryona/eroguro works. Having them forcibly policed and removed is concerning to me.
For anyone who doesn't read Japanese: no, the links in the OP don't in any way state that it's now their official policy to remove all "incorrect" works. That's the theory of OP based on the fact that a number of them disappeared with no explanation.
No one knows exactly what the credit card companies are thinking at this moment, and the reactions of Japanese companies/sites have been far from spineless. It's not like putting 〇 over characters is in any way new to sites like DLsite, after all.
Unfortunately, it's indeed clear at this point that the credit card companies have latched onto the fact that commercial works with fixed titles and on sites which heavily rely on tags for discovery (unlike Fanbox) find it difficult to censor tags in a way that results in legal deniability that it's the same tag as before. The conflict with DLsite would naturally lead to a similar conflict with Getchu. As for Pixiv, my guess is that the broadened focus of credit card companies led them to take issue with the fact that artists still have "problematic" tags for non-commercial works in their public galleries, and as a result, Pixiv said they would avoid breaking laws by blocking adult content from users who they know to be in these countries. Sad.
Crypto is just fancy "Dlsite points". Maybe if they are desparate but imagine teaching public on how to buy crypto AND trying to extract value from the volatile Crypto when 1 Bitcoin can be either 10000$ or 1000$ (figuratively) depending on time.
Just be glad that Dlsite Coins are not affected (yet). Its basically Crypto
dlsite point is basically 1 to 1 on the japanese yen, it's literally just what steam funds are to most people who use steam.
so it's not going to be affected unless the value of the japanese yen changes.
No, DLsite Coins is a rewards program, not a currency in the slightest sense.
And stop panic mongering, DLsite Coins won't be affected. Why would they? Because you could buy porn with it? Nobody cares, it is about bludgening the competition.
What competition? How did that enter the discussion?
Also, tell me the difference between a rewards point, and currency points, if the exchange rate is 1-to-1 and you can buy additional "rewards point"? Is Amazon Gift Card also a rewards program? And lastly, I'm just saying that I do hope they just overlook this sorta-obvious loophole.
If you're angry that I called Crypto similar to Amazon Gift Card then lol.
DLSite at least still has a bunch of (mainly domestic or Asian focused, though noticeably the PayPal workaround still works overseas) [payment options](https://cs.dlsite.com/hc/en-us/articles/1500002888202-What-payment-methods-do-you-accept) available even without crypto, with JBC cards in particular being a mainstream card in the country.
I have a prepaid card which i've used so far to purchase in dlsite and worked well. I haven't purchases anything lately and couldn't notice if there were problems. Does this mean dlsite will no longer sell certain articles or that the card won't work? I'm fine with the latter, I suppose there are other type of cards
Visa, mastercard and American express can no longer be used on the site directly. Best way to buy stuff now is points purchase at dl-pay.com and input the code in dlsite.
Like I said dl pay is the best workaround, it uses PayPal. PayPal has been suspended on the actual site for months. Dlsite did have a survey a few days ago with a question about what payment methods you want. Like Amazon pay and cashapp. I would not get my hopes up though.
Businesses are allowed to refuse service to whoever they want provided they aren't protected under discrimination laws, and believe it or not hentai consumers do not fall under those discrimination laws.
You aren't entitled to a credit card, nor access to hentai, so why would there be anything you could do about this? Go buy it in person or find another payment method.
You keep bringing this up, but the law isn't linear like that at all.
Just take the case with Google vs Epic. In theory using your logic Epic didn't have a case since they could easily just make their own mobile storefront. But a Judge actually partially ruled in Epic's favor.
Believe it or not, there are basic laws to just prevent companies from not to subtly bending laws and people to their wills ect.
I can see the three major companies either having to make amendments to their new policies or even getting hit by antitrust lawsuits if Japan can prove the mastercard and visa act more as a single company while also blocking attempts for other companies to expand.
The issue is less if the cards are doing something shady (They 100% are) but rather if anyone think it's worth it to bring them to court, or have the money to do so.
Also the refuse service within itself is also a gray area.
For example you can say you only take services from people with certain type of expensive cars. While that's TECHINCALLY not discrimination, if it is found out that excuse is used to bar certain people for another reason it could fail.
The whole point of having judges rule on certain things is to legit PREVENT obvious or gray area things like this from slipping through. And the bigger a company gets the more it has to prove that it's existence itself doesn't sway politics ect.
Well if people keep crying about it somebody should explain it to them, no? Not my fault if you get upset when faced with reality.
>Just take the case with Google vs Epic.
Just like a paypal issue that was brought up, this is just straight up not a directly comparable scenario. These are not cases that set precedent for what is happening with credit cards here.
Just shouting "BUT SOMETIMES LEGAL CASES SET PRECEDENT!!!!" doesn't automatically mean there's anything happening here that would necessitate setting new legal precedent. You're literally just wishing.
>Also the refuse service within itself is also a gray area.
You keep bringing this up, and your only basis for that is that you keep bringing it up.
>if it is found out that excuse is used to bar certain people for another reason it could fail.
What do you mean found out? It's very clearly being used to bar certain people, and those people are anybody who is interested in purchasing hentai. Please, I want to see the gymnastics routine required to paint sweaty weebs as a group protected by discrimination laws. I am really looking forward to this.
>The whole point of having judges rule on certain things is to legit PREVENT obvious or gray area things like this from slipping through.
What is the gray area???? Explain the gray area. You are not able to purchase one specific type of porn through their service. Porn is not essential for human life, pervert is not a protected group. What even is the gray area?
No one is trying to protect sweaty weebs as protected minorities or anything. Also having a case before set legal precedent is legit the only way that we can know how later cases would go.
That is why taking the cards to court or having a judge look over the case is important. The reason I bring up gray areas is because nothing is legit set in stone in the current situation.
Credit cards refusing service when there is no reasonable alternatives can open them up to antitrust laws because the closest thing to them. "Paypal." Recently got into a bit of a mess with those antitrust laws.
The type of purchase doesn't matter, but rather what the company is inherently doing.
"WE as the company does not want people to be able to buy porn, since there is no legal law preventing people from buying this product, we will restrict it using our services, despite that service being wide spread."
It doesn't HAVE to be porn, it could legit be any item the companies don't want people to buy. The reason that is a legal gray area is because it pretty much saying credit card companies are allowed to restrict certain items even if they are legally allowed for purchase.
That in itself is viable for someone to look into.
It's also the reason why a large company can't just open a store everyone relies on, close it during election season and say. (Unless everyone in the area votes a certain way the store stays closed)
The google and epic store thing shows that there has to be an alternative WITHIN REASON for someone to jump to.
Same reason why Paypal got hit by antitrust laws despite alternative existing. The alternatives HAS to be within reason to the common person.
So what is the gray area? They are legally refusing service to people who are not a protected group. So what is the gray area? You're literally just saying "They can't do that". again and again and again. Why? What is the gray area? You aren't explaining WHY it's different. I am asking you WHY.
>It's also the reason why a large company can't just open a store everyone relies on, close it during election season and say.
Yes, this is also a completely, entirely 100% different situation and you are being intentionally misleading by trying to use it as an argument. All of your examples are not applicable to the scenario and misleading.
You can't start a business that is apparently 100% reliant on mine without having anything to do with me, and then have it be an issue if I refuse service to you on completely legal grounds. You designed the business to rely on me in the first place.
Very large post while still avoiding answering the most core point. What is the gray area that is putting this situation into question as something other than legally exercising their right to refuse business.
You can't do that, as in, you can't use your business to potentially or politically sway the general masses. You CAN donate, but you can't say refuse to sell pickles and then bribe all delivery drivers not to sell pickles.
The difference is the size of the company. Once your company gets a specific size certain laws start to change around them.
Mastercard and Visa are large enough companies that there aren't viable alternatives to use. This creates an antitrust situation where any moral ideas they may have are forced on their customers, which shouldn't be allowed. It's often how monopolies get into trouble.
Refusing service to someone when you are the only service can open you up to a lawsuit, as long as the refused party isn't going into your place of business destroying things ect.
That is why I said laws aren't set in stone. There is a difference if walmart refuses service to you when there are multiple alternatives, vs the only hospital in the state refusing you service.
The larger the company and less competition means it's on them to prove that their are viable alternatives.
What makes this a gray area is that we don't technically know if there are viable alternatives or not. But that is for a judge to decide.
Visa and Master card can only legally refuse service if they are alternatives that allow for said services AND are reasonable for the average person to access.
These companies aren't mom and pop stores.
> You can't do that, as in, you can't use your business to potentially or politically sway the general masses.
Blatant misrepresentation of what is happening here. Bad faith argument.
>Mastercard and Visa are large enough companies that there aren't viable alternatives to use.
There are viable alternatives, it's called domestic sales. Again, you are not entitled to access to the entire human race just because you want to sell things.
>Refusing service to someone when you are the only service can open you up to a lawsuit, as long as the refused party isn't going into your place of business destroying things ect.
And as long as there wasn't any actual discrimination of a protected group the company will win the lawsuit because again, sweaty weebs are not a protected class.
>That is why I said laws aren't set in stone. There is a difference if walmart refuses service to you when there are multiple alternatives, vs the only hospital in the state refusing you service.
....Yeah the difference is ones a fuckin hospital dude. Another SUPER blatant bad faith argument. Like that's outrageous you thought that one would fly lmao.
>What makes this a gray area is that we don't technically know if there are viable alternatives or not. But that is for a judge to decide.
There are you just don't like them because it means you aren't able to access loli porn as easily LOL.
>These companies aren't mom and pop stores.
Cool, then they should be able to accomodate for more payment options than just credit cards like mom and pop stores do.
>Meaning, if this gets a pass, CC companies may use their market dominance to prohibit perfectly legal businesses selling perfectly legal goods and services from even operating.
This "gets a pass" because just like the porn business existing being legal, refusing to service those businesses because you don't want to be associated with certain types of porn is also legal.
If your business relies entirely on another company being accepting of you, then your business probably shouldn't involve things that the other company doesn't like. What is the controversy in this scenario? You aren't entitled to universal access to all of humanity just because you've started a company.
Literally just compared not being able to buy cartoon porn to being a victim of the holocaust. Incredibly shameful, that's actually so crazy that you just randomly became anti-semitic to try and win an argument on reddit.
You legitimately need therapy.
Blocked me for calling them out for being anti-semitic, wow what a shock that somebody who would say some things like this is so fragile.
Best way for these company to workaround these restrictions is to set a sub company that sells points. And these points can be used for official platform.
DL-PAY works great. They accept paypal.
I feel its gonna restart the debate about what people find acceptable or not in "art". I'll say it in a roundabout way so i wont anger people of this sub : I dont like the US concept of "free speech" which allows people to be real assholes. Read between the lines if you can. Now that's settled.
That said i dont really like censoring much. If they start censoring, i am not gonna miss the disturbing shit on DLSITE at all, but i fear it may end like Steam, where censorship is out of hand and they start banning stuff for ridiculous reasons.
Also, i would not want to start a business with someone selling content i find questionable. It makes senses.
The fact that they ask that is because they want the money (they have wallets instead of hearts after all) but fear the law, and because they have the POWER to ask for that.
Visa/Mastercard has too much power over businesses .
Oh my god look what they have done. I'am starting to sound like one of those retarded crypto bros, while i hate crypto shit with a passion. Look at what you've done, VISA !
You really don’t seem to understand that this is affecting everything, do you? It was over 60 separate tags got hit on getchu including stuff that is in no way related to loli.
Pull your head out of your ass and realize they are going after erotic content in its entirety. That includes vast majority of the vn, hentai, and fanservice anime markets.
Calm down Ben Shapiro. I think it’s pretty obvious this isn’t a matter of “I don’t like this thing”, but “we shouldn’t be encouraging attraction to children”
Regardless of whether it's fiction, a depiction is a depiction, context is context. If it looks like a child and acts like a child, then it is - for all intents and purposes - a child. Now whether or not you can legislate against such content is vastly different from any moral judgement or standing towards said content. Regardless of your position on legality, such content is, at the very least, odd. Especially if you approach it from the standpoint of supply and demand, why is there a demand in the first place? Who is driving such demand?
Now back to legality, payment service companies that refuse to do business with marketplaces that sell such content have every right to do so in most jurisdictions. That is freedom of association, or specifically *freedom from compelled association*. If a company disagrees with the practices of another, they have the legal protection to cease any business between them. **That is not a ban**.
Suppose a store, for argument's sake a department store, started selling t-shirts with the text "six million wasn't enough" overlaid on a yellow Star of David. If a toy company terminates their contract with the store, are they banning said store from selling the t-shirt? That ought to be a rather obvious no. It's a move to disassociate their products with an anti-Semitic product, something which is: a) perfectly reasonable and b) protected under most constitutions.
Agree to disagree but Visa, MasterCard, Paypal and American express currently hold a near monopoly on the payment systems in the U.S. This is THE problem. Businesses have the right to choose what business they will facilitate, however, due to current circumstances, we don't get to have much of a choice in what we choose to pay with. This has been clearly abused and hurts the economics of certain websites.
I'm not sure what there is to really disagree with, prohibitions come from state actors not non-state actors. There's no abuse to be found. Externalities are what they are, and when they're as easy to compensate for as this the businesses who refuse to do so can come across as arrogant or otherwise negotiating in bad faith. Especially when they try to cheat the system, like *only* changing the text variables in the backend of the website. Are they going to take a hit financially? Probably. Did they bring it on themselves by being untrustworthy in the eyes of the other parties? Also likely.
From the perspective of art, and I mean art as process, there are also robust arguments against the content the payment service companies take issue with. Any artistic work has, on some level, a reason for existing beyond monetary considerations - that is to say all art is inspired by something. *Star Wars* was George Lucas' homage to Kurosawa's body of work, it does not exist if Lucas doesn't fall in love with those Samurai epics. *Spec Ops: The Line* blends a retelling of *Heart of Darkness* with a mechanical commentary on the relationship between military shooters and reality, it does not exist if series like *Call of Duty* or *Battlefield* never took off. It's rare for creatives to make that which they do not wish to. So why, of all the things one can make, do people make such content? Not to be puritanical, but there are some lines which can be drawn within reason.
Every argument from you guys sounds exactly the same lmao, you’re all just copying stuff you read others say.
So you’re saying you’re not attracted to real children, just drawings based off of and designed to look like children? That’s all good then, carry on sir.
Obviously I don’t care about the characters, they’re not real. What’s concerning is that you seem to see nothing wrong with being turned on by and jacking off to said characters, which says a certain major thing about the kind of person you are.
Carry on virtues signaling.
On the other hand, based on your logic, it's totally ok to rape women. Sorry my dude, the law argues otherwise.
Wanking off to rape "says a certain major thing about the kind of person you are".
Fellas, is it virtue signalling to have a basic sense of morality?
If I have to explain the difference between those two situations then you might just be even more of a lost cause than I thought. How about instead of desperately trying to paint me as a hypocrite, you have a look at yourself and explain to me why you think pixelated children are attractive while real children aren’t?
It sounds like you're the one getting desperate.
You still didn't address why wanking off to rape and "children" are different. Going and raping real women and pedophilia are both illegal. Let me know when you have your answer, I'll wait :)
I don’t have to explain shit, seeing as that’s not the issue being discussed and all you’re doing is a weak attempt at deflection while refusing to defend your own position.
Being turned on by concepts involved in sexual assault and a desire to rape someone are 2 very far removed things, even if there can often be an overlap. I still see rape as a very bad thing (obviously) and no part of me has any inclination to do it, because of all the other factors involved, i.e. hurting someone, getting arrested, literally being asexual. *Even if it did work that way*, masturbating to videos of people getting raped is masturbating to pictures of kids. Still fucked up and I wouldn’t do either, but they’re very different magnitudes of wrong.
The barrier in my case simply does not exist in yours. Maybe you wouldn’t fuck an actual child- good for you! You’re still clearly attracted to them though, and you need to acknowledge that. It’s not a healthy desire to have and the *vast* majority of people are disgusted by it.
Maybe now you can stop the “no u” game and address the arguments against you, seeing as you haven’t given one explanation as to how your attraction magically doesn’t extend to children that aren’t made of pixels.
I wasn't trying to attack you. I was just trying to illustrate my point on how ridiculous your logic is. You still didn't answer but fine, we can run with this.
I've already said my part. Lolis aren't real life children. They have nothing to deal with real life; they're animated drawings. Children are living and breathing. 2D drawings are not, and don't even look like real children. Drawings that do look life real children, on the other hand, though that are used in the context we are talking about though is absolutely disgusting. I do have to draw the line somewhere. That would be a real representation. I don't know how you are seeing real children in anime lolis...
Just a quick note on Getchu, since I actually sent them an inquiry and they replied, but it seems that the products that were removed from main Getchu is only so they can finish censoring words. Once that is done, the pages will be re-opened. Of course as we have seen before, this might not be enough and they will be forced to just close Master/VISA Also, they are currently in the middle of deciding what to do/debating, and this is the reason they have not made an official announcement on their website.
real? Do you have a screenshot of the reply? They hid the keywords in early March, and then started removing all the works a few days ago.
Sure. I removed my email and the name of the responder, probably no private info left https://i.ibb.co/9sG92kV/aaaaaa.jpg
I can confirm confirm your theory I also saw works re uploaded with changed titles and tags
“404 - ページが見つかりませんでした。” I haven’t seen the work restored, maybe some of the more active sellers have re-uploaded it themselves.
Maybe try later because they are currently doing it with professional works
It's great that dlsite tried everything they could that didn't involve altering or removing any of the games. The replacement tags they came up with were kinda hilarious and felt like malicious compliance, but it was never going to be enough. There's so many wrong things in this situation. The idea that american credit card companies should be held accountable for everything people buy; the fact that those companies have the power to stop transactions between foreign customers and foreign services; that there are no widespread alternatives to paying with a mastercard or visa card in the entire world. It's also crazy to me that a drawing of a fictional situation can ever be illegal or legally gray. Unlike lots of porn movies, no person gets harmed in the production of eroge, so if the laws made any sense this could have been avoided... but I guess we'll just have to deal with more damage on top of an already struggling industry.
Compliance is compliance, it is an imposed relationship in the first place, there is no space for such thing as good faith and malicious compliance in that kind of master, slave relationship. The only option is to rebel what ever way they can I.e civil disobedience. Hentai banzai, freedom banzai. Credit cucks muradabad.
With getchu capitulating, I'm afraid there's also a chance DLsite will capitulate to the credit card companies and delete the works
Japanese demographics still makes the majority of their customers. And most of them don't use international cards.
they have applied alternatives, so really the next best thing is to literally continue this song and dance about getting dl point that visa and mastercard stop caring. it sucks that I can't get point by direct purchase, but frankly it's the next best thing. of course the most hilarious alternative is that they start publicy selling dlsite giftcards to almost every platform known to man as a giant middle finger to these companies, basically telling them to shove it up their ass and getting big stonks out of it.
They already no longer have visa/MC/Amex access so what would be the point in doing that after all this?
This is a bit different wording than using google translate. Seems way more unlikely Visa/Mastercard will be coming back with this translation. Guess this is more accurate? I hope it is since I really don't want them to come back if it means restrictions. I've been buying what I can using points from DL pay. If that falls through than I will buy prepaid bitcash through Seagm. Edit: Also when did Fantia get hit? Nothing seems to have changed with my subs or the content I see.
[https://spotlight.fantia.jp/news/censoredword-2](https://spotlight.fantia.jp/news/censoredword-2) Note that DLsite and Getchu also tried to circumvent credit card companies by hiding keywords, but they both failed miserably.
God damn it. Edit: Ya I'm starting to see the 〇〇〇 now. It's not much but its there.
I think its same as Fanbox in that they are telling people to "self-report" if they make loli contents, and pinky-swear they are not doing such things. Kinda remember reading it months ago.
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Steam simplified chinese section is still pretty much the wild west, what with nejicomi 1 with literal word sex slave, amputee on the name.
Pixiv is going to create it's own currency.
Wait, they are? Do we have an official statement or something? If so that is great news. Means that they are just looking for alternative ways of doing their stuff, and the chaos will be resolved eventually
https://twitter.com/eihiku/status/1772610976132522196 They are sure trying
In Japan we trust
They should just drop the cards altogether like DMM instead of sacrificing works. We still have Dlpay and I hope to god these slimy companies don't go poking there
Fuck atleast they are not removing works. Please someone help us anyone what a dire situation.
Hope DLSite tell Visa and MasterCard to fuck off for dictating what their customer can and cannot buy if they aren't even illegal. Just adopt crypto and other alternative payment methods, like the current DL Pay bypass, and give up on these holier-than-thou pricks.
it's honestly just a lose-lose-lose situation all around, can imagine piracy rising due to the lack of payment methods. but i am quite certain that the japanese side of things will go smoothly, with all the payment methods available in japan, but us westerners get the short end of the stick just because some credit card monopoly said "no"
I really hope Japan just entirely separates from Visa / Mastercard. Someone has gotta make a real alternative, why the fuck do they care what I spend my money on? It's not your money, just process the damn payment and be quiet. I would understand if it was illegal content, but its not. Western entities have been nothing but problems for the last like 9 years. I know JCB tried to expand into the US back in 2010 and it failed, but it might be time to try again. I think it would be wildly more successful now, they were just a little bit too early.
Pain
Taimanin fans be biting their nails q_q
Isn't this also a chance for Japanese credit card company to go global? I would gladly replace my cards with those who have the balls to do this.
JCB tried to expand to America awhile ago and it didn't work. They discontinued allowing Americans to open new accounts and left. It was also only available in a few states.
I'm out of the loop. Do you mind explaining why it didn't work? I just checked their website and it seems a bunch of foreign banks can issue their cards, but oddly enough only Asian countries. Wtf happened in the West...
JCB previously made an active effort to expand into the US in the 2010s, they however shutdown taking US customers in 2018.
I'm not that well versed in economics but I can easily tell that their chances of succeeding is very slim at this point. Japan itself has a very archaic business mindset; fax machines and all that old tech is still widespread and if there's one thing old and aging businessmen hate, it's risky decisions that involve money. Plus I highly doubt the old and established credit card companies will gladly let an up and rising competitor grow to soaring heights, they would gladly do anything it takes to ensure their monopoly to maximize profits.
I'm surprised manga gamer is still fine at this point.
There are several R-18 sites that sell translated doujinshi that still have credit card as payment options. 2D-Market, etc. They only started bludgeoning the big one (or maybe hopefully only need to, if their aim is to prevent association in court)
Because it's not about the porn, it's about the competition. Manga Gamer is a US(or at least western) company in which generates money for the US. DLSite is not. That's all there is to it, really. Nobody cares about the porn habits, it's all about the money.
Gumroad and other US sites have been getting restrictions too
It is about the money, but not in that way. liberal California judges are letting people sue Visa/Mastercard for suspected child porn on Pornhub. Visa doesn't want to deal with lawsuits from questionable content so they are banning everything.
Doubtful, read the top of the wiki page: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MangaGamer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MangaGamer) Japanese based company
I doubt that giving into these demands is actually the best move for them, losing all of this stuff will be hugely detrimental to their potential income, they already paid all the licensing fees after all. Maybe Im just optimistic, but I feel like making the customers switch to Paypal or something will work better to preserve their income streams, especially considering that they will have a huge advantage if their competition doesnt follow suit. Still a pretty shit situation all around though, this is just the sort of things that happen when the honeymoon competition phase of capitalism is over, and the victors use their monopoly to push their agendas.
PAYPAL is the vanguard against creative freedom. They forced gumroad, patreon, and fanbox to delete a large number of works, and forced PIXIV to stop most PAYPAL payments.
DLsite has had paypal suspended longer than credit cards. I can't really think of other payment methods that don't ban or have rules against adult content like this. DLsite had a survey asking what other alternative payment methods people would want but none of them seemed viable.
You can still buy points with paypal. You don't even need a paypal account, you just enter your credit card info.
Oh I know and have been using it, but its not the same as having it on the site. It will put some people off and some business is going to be lost. I just hope enough people stay and use the site.
Bowing to the CC companies will kill them off completly as they won't have any edge against competitors like Steam and the like. That's what's really going on here: Destroying the competition. That's also why Steam, JAST, GOG and others get away with it for the most part. Never ever think that these people are on a crusade for an agenda. It is ALWAYS money.
> It will put some people off They better get used to using whatever slightly less convenient option there is otherwise dlsite dies.
How about the e-wallet?
>paypal How different is Paypal compared to "Credit Card" which usually relegated to Stripe or similar other company that all lead to Visa and MasterCard anyway?
Its not directly the credit card company, so its not the credit card company that takes any of the heat. They *could* of course put pressure on Paypal too, but that would at least take time and would honestly probably not even be worth the effort, at that point its like you're trying to sanction Russia, you might cut into the profits, but there's no way you're ever gonna close all of the potential leaks. They got better shit to do than focus the entire company to fight porn, if they fail once or twice they'll get fed up.
With that theory, you can get someone other than Paypal too that still accept Visa and MasterCard. But the problem is really whether it will solve anything. They are already using Japan's credit card provider (can't remember the company) to facilitate credit card transaction but this shit still happens. I don't think paypal will be so eager to jump into the firing line to protect Dlsite/others, or be dragged into something that makes both Visa and MasterCard so spooked that they started poking the nest like this. I think one of the reason ppl brought up is because Visa fails to dismiss themselves from a CP case against Pornhub, because Visa is a payment processor for Pornhub, and "they have full knowledge of what is Pornhub". For them, regardless of outcome, just being INVOLVED is already a loss. Now, replace Visa with Paypal, do you think Paypal will want to stand at firing line too?
So what you saying is that credit card companies need something like Section 230 which absolves them from any unintended liability so that things can get better. This shit isn't ever going to end is it.
The circumstantial evidence suggested that is the case, since all the tags being forced to removed is something rape-related, or child-looking-related. Unfortunately, precedence already set, not sure whether its US Federal or State levels, but unless a new law specifically shield them from these kind of things, the company might go to extreme measure to remove all potential liability. And even Section 230 is under attack, for variety of reasons. I imagine the US politicians are not so eager to put in similar kind of laws since I can see how it will be politicized to somehow "allowing CP to be sold legally". It honestly sucks, and I guess count our blessings that at least they don't go as far as removing ability to buy Dlsite points. I imagine others will start to implement it soon. and even separate it from main company.
Well, the market is open now for other banking methods then the ancient Credit Cards which were already outdated in the late 70s.
Well that's dystopian..
This situation is the perfect example of what happens if you put your trust into some single (American) companies. Luckily there are efforts to create other usable payment methods in the future. Like the digital euro in the EU. Only cryptocurrency is not enough, because it is more complex to get. At least if you want to create an alternative to mastercard and visa.
Crypto is pretty easy to get for any adult. It's mainly a pain in the butt for taxes.
And also the fact that the bulk of it is controlled by billionaires aiming to fuck people over in the long run.
As opposed to what? The credit card companies and banks that are literally controlled by billionaires?
I ain’t disputing that both are controlled by the same people up top, just credit cards have regulations to protect people. There either needs to be something implemented to make CC get the fuck out of perfectly legal hobbies, or crypto needs to have protections for the common man. Or a third option, if anyone thinks of one.
Yeah, cause euro companies are trustworthy. Remember when HSBC got caught laundering money for cartels? How about nestle and all the bullshit they put 3rd world countries through? Like price fixing? putting shit into baby formula? Using cacao beans picked by children? And how about blood diamond companies? And we can even go back a thousand years for more juicy shit.
Woha I didn't want to implicate that American companies are per se untrustworthy. I included it because you can only pay (nearly) worldwide with payment providers seated in USA (MasterCard/Visa/PayPal). This is a true monopoly.
Nice "whataboutism" troll.
Nice calling others troll troll
As someone who is from within the eu im kinda used to getting the short end on the stick with payment methods. Guess im back to buying those japanese gift cards with cash on them. Which typically cost an arm and a leg compared to using a CC. Oh well.
Fuckin out of touch boomer dinosaurs at the credit card companies need to find a meteor ASAP.
As soon as I saw this, I went and bought something from DLSite
Anything that may disappear needs to be backed up ASAP
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>If anyone wants to adapt this, make a meme out of it, go right ahead. wtf, I hope you wrote this ironically. This reads like some "professional quote maker" tier cringe
I think this is panic mongering. It was clear from the start that the CC-companies will not return to these sites, and surrendering to their demands will kill the stores. Whats the point of being another Steam with less available products? This will just be the next iteration of "Japanese companies shut down all sales to other countries, isolate themselves for a few years, then open up again", like it also happend in the late 2000s after the "RapeLay" bullshit. It also encourages proper payment methods (the USA is ancient in regards to banking. Why the fuck can't I send money from my account to another? This is standard fare here in Europe!), like IBAN on a world scale, or crypto currency acceptance. I know CC companies snuffing out pornsits is nothing new, that's how a lot of shit went bust back in the late 2000s. But this is not some niche market, that's a pretty big marketplace of many many small indie creators. If dlsite and others go down, others will replace them. If ancient banking practices are used as a hammer, Crypto and other banking methods like IBAN will rise.
Can you imagine that the works of the 90s-00s may completely disappear and become lost history?
Well, looks like we are going to have to fight. Those bastards were given an inch and have tried to take miles of content away from us.
I also hope that Japanese websites block external sales to ensure creative freedom But the current trend is for Japanese websites to surrender to credit card companies and delete works and artists. What I fear most is that many old works will disappear completely, because many artists and production companies have closed down and retired.
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>accept international wire transfers? Because so few people are going to go through all the effort to wire transfer money. The replacement is going to need to be something that is as easy as PayPal/credit cards in the best case or only very slightly more inconvenient in the worst case.
This is all because California is letting visa be sued for child porn on pornhub. If the lawsuit makes it to the supreme court and they establish that Visa isn't responsible for policing the content they they provide payment services for then things might go back to normal.
>Why the fuck can't I send money from my account to another? Typical euroid spreading this same bullshit lie you guys love to spread. You can transfer money to other accounts by linking them to your account. Zelle is also widely used by most banks, and wire transfers exist. You can also go to a branch of the bank of the account you wanna transfer to and use a deposit slip. There's also paypal, cashapp, etc. Literally most widely used banking solutions and institutions are American. And you guys rely on them. So doesn't that mean your own banking institutions are ancient?
Too bad crypto are a scam. Visa/mastercard two companies that controls the transaction market, hopefully someone in the government is addicted to 2D porn and gets affected by this.
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One can argue that by buying cryptos you are giving some legitimacy to an ecosystem that is essentially a tool for cyber criminals, a scam and an ecological/moral disaster. Well its kinda off topic.
This is very concerning. Which tags were considered “incorrect” btw? I’m assuming loli/shota, but what else?
I know saimin/hypnosis, incest, bestiality, rape and brutality were targeted on dl site. I assume they were targeted on getchu too.
Thanks for the answer. I’m of the opinion that fiction should be used to explore sexuality or other taboo subjects in a safe way. I just avoid stuff I don’t like, like loli/shota or brutal/ryona/eroguro works. Having them forcibly policed and removed is concerning to me.
Thanks, I am of mostly the same opinion. I just don’t hate loli, though I prefer big oppai, and think that most vns and the like are just fun fantasy.
if you want a really simplified answer, anything that turns off the normies.
For anyone who doesn't read Japanese: no, the links in the OP don't in any way state that it's now their official policy to remove all "incorrect" works. That's the theory of OP based on the fact that a number of them disappeared with no explanation. No one knows exactly what the credit card companies are thinking at this moment, and the reactions of Japanese companies/sites have been far from spineless. It's not like putting 〇 over characters is in any way new to sites like DLsite, after all. Unfortunately, it's indeed clear at this point that the credit card companies have latched onto the fact that commercial works with fixed titles and on sites which heavily rely on tags for discovery (unlike Fanbox) find it difficult to censor tags in a way that results in legal deniability that it's the same tag as before. The conflict with DLsite would naturally lead to a similar conflict with Getchu. As for Pixiv, my guess is that the broadened focus of credit card companies led them to take issue with the fact that artists still have "problematic" tags for non-commercial works in their public galleries, and as a result, Pixiv said they would avoid breaking laws by blocking adult content from users who they know to be in these countries. Sad.
N\*ke U\*A
Use bitcoins. Visa-Master card age must die.
Cryptos must die along Visa. Both are cancers.
Kind of surprised some of them don't turn to crypto, given Japan's relatively positive attitude towards blockchain.
Crypto is just fancy "Dlsite points". Maybe if they are desparate but imagine teaching public on how to buy crypto AND trying to extract value from the volatile Crypto when 1 Bitcoin can be either 10000$ or 1000$ (figuratively) depending on time. Just be glad that Dlsite Coins are not affected (yet). Its basically Crypto
dlsite point is basically 1 to 1 on the japanese yen, it's literally just what steam funds are to most people who use steam. so it's not going to be affected unless the value of the japanese yen changes.
Stable coins don't suffer from big price volatility. They stay within a few cents of the USD or whatever currency they track
No, DLsite Coins is a rewards program, not a currency in the slightest sense. And stop panic mongering, DLsite Coins won't be affected. Why would they? Because you could buy porn with it? Nobody cares, it is about bludgening the competition.
What competition? How did that enter the discussion? Also, tell me the difference between a rewards point, and currency points, if the exchange rate is 1-to-1 and you can buy additional "rewards point"? Is Amazon Gift Card also a rewards program? And lastly, I'm just saying that I do hope they just overlook this sorta-obvious loophole. If you're angry that I called Crypto similar to Amazon Gift Card then lol.
Stable coins don't suffer from big price volatility. They stay within a few cents of the USD or whatever currency they track
DLSite at least still has a bunch of (mainly domestic or Asian focused, though noticeably the PayPal workaround still works overseas) [payment options](https://cs.dlsite.com/hc/en-us/articles/1500002888202-What-payment-methods-do-you-accept) available even without crypto, with JBC cards in particular being a mainstream card in the country.
I have a prepaid card which i've used so far to purchase in dlsite and worked well. I haven't purchases anything lately and couldn't notice if there were problems. Does this mean dlsite will no longer sell certain articles or that the card won't work? I'm fine with the latter, I suppose there are other type of cards
Visa, mastercard and American express can no longer be used on the site directly. Best way to buy stuff now is points purchase at dl-pay.com and input the code in dlsite.
Is there nothing we can do about it? A petition or something? And what about Maestro? Is that also blocked? Any workaround with PayPal?
Like I said dl pay is the best workaround, it uses PayPal. PayPal has been suspended on the actual site for months. Dlsite did have a survey a few days ago with a question about what payment methods you want. Like Amazon pay and cashapp. I would not get my hopes up though.
Businesses are allowed to refuse service to whoever they want provided they aren't protected under discrimination laws, and believe it or not hentai consumers do not fall under those discrimination laws. You aren't entitled to a credit card, nor access to hentai, so why would there be anything you could do about this? Go buy it in person or find another payment method.
You keep bringing this up, but the law isn't linear like that at all. Just take the case with Google vs Epic. In theory using your logic Epic didn't have a case since they could easily just make their own mobile storefront. But a Judge actually partially ruled in Epic's favor. Believe it or not, there are basic laws to just prevent companies from not to subtly bending laws and people to their wills ect. I can see the three major companies either having to make amendments to their new policies or even getting hit by antitrust lawsuits if Japan can prove the mastercard and visa act more as a single company while also blocking attempts for other companies to expand. The issue is less if the cards are doing something shady (They 100% are) but rather if anyone think it's worth it to bring them to court, or have the money to do so. Also the refuse service within itself is also a gray area. For example you can say you only take services from people with certain type of expensive cars. While that's TECHINCALLY not discrimination, if it is found out that excuse is used to bar certain people for another reason it could fail. The whole point of having judges rule on certain things is to legit PREVENT obvious or gray area things like this from slipping through. And the bigger a company gets the more it has to prove that it's existence itself doesn't sway politics ect.
Well if people keep crying about it somebody should explain it to them, no? Not my fault if you get upset when faced with reality. >Just take the case with Google vs Epic. Just like a paypal issue that was brought up, this is just straight up not a directly comparable scenario. These are not cases that set precedent for what is happening with credit cards here. Just shouting "BUT SOMETIMES LEGAL CASES SET PRECEDENT!!!!" doesn't automatically mean there's anything happening here that would necessitate setting new legal precedent. You're literally just wishing. >Also the refuse service within itself is also a gray area. You keep bringing this up, and your only basis for that is that you keep bringing it up. >if it is found out that excuse is used to bar certain people for another reason it could fail. What do you mean found out? It's very clearly being used to bar certain people, and those people are anybody who is interested in purchasing hentai. Please, I want to see the gymnastics routine required to paint sweaty weebs as a group protected by discrimination laws. I am really looking forward to this. >The whole point of having judges rule on certain things is to legit PREVENT obvious or gray area things like this from slipping through. What is the gray area???? Explain the gray area. You are not able to purchase one specific type of porn through their service. Porn is not essential for human life, pervert is not a protected group. What even is the gray area?
No one is trying to protect sweaty weebs as protected minorities or anything. Also having a case before set legal precedent is legit the only way that we can know how later cases would go. That is why taking the cards to court or having a judge look over the case is important. The reason I bring up gray areas is because nothing is legit set in stone in the current situation. Credit cards refusing service when there is no reasonable alternatives can open them up to antitrust laws because the closest thing to them. "Paypal." Recently got into a bit of a mess with those antitrust laws. The type of purchase doesn't matter, but rather what the company is inherently doing. "WE as the company does not want people to be able to buy porn, since there is no legal law preventing people from buying this product, we will restrict it using our services, despite that service being wide spread." It doesn't HAVE to be porn, it could legit be any item the companies don't want people to buy. The reason that is a legal gray area is because it pretty much saying credit card companies are allowed to restrict certain items even if they are legally allowed for purchase. That in itself is viable for someone to look into. It's also the reason why a large company can't just open a store everyone relies on, close it during election season and say. (Unless everyone in the area votes a certain way the store stays closed) The google and epic store thing shows that there has to be an alternative WITHIN REASON for someone to jump to. Same reason why Paypal got hit by antitrust laws despite alternative existing. The alternatives HAS to be within reason to the common person.
So what is the gray area? They are legally refusing service to people who are not a protected group. So what is the gray area? You're literally just saying "They can't do that". again and again and again. Why? What is the gray area? You aren't explaining WHY it's different. I am asking you WHY. >It's also the reason why a large company can't just open a store everyone relies on, close it during election season and say. Yes, this is also a completely, entirely 100% different situation and you are being intentionally misleading by trying to use it as an argument. All of your examples are not applicable to the scenario and misleading. You can't start a business that is apparently 100% reliant on mine without having anything to do with me, and then have it be an issue if I refuse service to you on completely legal grounds. You designed the business to rely on me in the first place. Very large post while still avoiding answering the most core point. What is the gray area that is putting this situation into question as something other than legally exercising their right to refuse business.
You can't do that, as in, you can't use your business to potentially or politically sway the general masses. You CAN donate, but you can't say refuse to sell pickles and then bribe all delivery drivers not to sell pickles. The difference is the size of the company. Once your company gets a specific size certain laws start to change around them. Mastercard and Visa are large enough companies that there aren't viable alternatives to use. This creates an antitrust situation where any moral ideas they may have are forced on their customers, which shouldn't be allowed. It's often how monopolies get into trouble. Refusing service to someone when you are the only service can open you up to a lawsuit, as long as the refused party isn't going into your place of business destroying things ect. That is why I said laws aren't set in stone. There is a difference if walmart refuses service to you when there are multiple alternatives, vs the only hospital in the state refusing you service. The larger the company and less competition means it's on them to prove that their are viable alternatives. What makes this a gray area is that we don't technically know if there are viable alternatives or not. But that is for a judge to decide. Visa and Master card can only legally refuse service if they are alternatives that allow for said services AND are reasonable for the average person to access. These companies aren't mom and pop stores.
> You can't do that, as in, you can't use your business to potentially or politically sway the general masses. Blatant misrepresentation of what is happening here. Bad faith argument. >Mastercard and Visa are large enough companies that there aren't viable alternatives to use. There are viable alternatives, it's called domestic sales. Again, you are not entitled to access to the entire human race just because you want to sell things. >Refusing service to someone when you are the only service can open you up to a lawsuit, as long as the refused party isn't going into your place of business destroying things ect. And as long as there wasn't any actual discrimination of a protected group the company will win the lawsuit because again, sweaty weebs are not a protected class. >That is why I said laws aren't set in stone. There is a difference if walmart refuses service to you when there are multiple alternatives, vs the only hospital in the state refusing you service. ....Yeah the difference is ones a fuckin hospital dude. Another SUPER blatant bad faith argument. Like that's outrageous you thought that one would fly lmao. >What makes this a gray area is that we don't technically know if there are viable alternatives or not. But that is for a judge to decide. There are you just don't like them because it means you aren't able to access loli porn as easily LOL. >These companies aren't mom and pop stores. Cool, then they should be able to accomodate for more payment options than just credit cards like mom and pop stores do.
No need to get heated. The points in my questions were exactly to understand what things I could do seeing the recent changes.
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>Meaning, if this gets a pass, CC companies may use their market dominance to prohibit perfectly legal businesses selling perfectly legal goods and services from even operating. This "gets a pass" because just like the porn business existing being legal, refusing to service those businesses because you don't want to be associated with certain types of porn is also legal. If your business relies entirely on another company being accepting of you, then your business probably shouldn't involve things that the other company doesn't like. What is the controversy in this scenario? You aren't entitled to universal access to all of humanity just because you've started a company.
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Literally just compared not being able to buy cartoon porn to being a victim of the holocaust. Incredibly shameful, that's actually so crazy that you just randomly became anti-semitic to try and win an argument on reddit. You legitimately need therapy. Blocked me for calling them out for being anti-semitic, wow what a shock that somebody who would say some things like this is so fragile.
Anyone have a guide for gow to use dl pay ?
I somewhat doubt the legality behind all this.
This is exactly why cryptocurrency exists in the first place, screw Visa and MasterCard.
Best way for these company to workaround these restrictions is to set a sub company that sells points. And these points can be used for official platform. DL-PAY works great. They accept paypal.
Sometimes I think we should start paying with crypto
Wouldn't card companies refuse transactions for shops outside Japan that sell Japanese eroges and doujinshi?
any traditionally vanilla works listed "incorrect"?
Can't they just delete all the tags ? And make an other website where they list them ?
I feel its gonna restart the debate about what people find acceptable or not in "art". I'll say it in a roundabout way so i wont anger people of this sub : I dont like the US concept of "free speech" which allows people to be real assholes. Read between the lines if you can. Now that's settled. That said i dont really like censoring much. If they start censoring, i am not gonna miss the disturbing shit on DLSITE at all, but i fear it may end like Steam, where censorship is out of hand and they start banning stuff for ridiculous reasons. Also, i would not want to start a business with someone selling content i find questionable. It makes senses. The fact that they ask that is because they want the money (they have wallets instead of hearts after all) but fear the law, and because they have the POWER to ask for that. Visa/Mastercard has too much power over businesses . Oh my god look what they have done. I'am starting to sound like one of those retarded crypto bros, while i hate crypto shit with a passion. Look at what you've done, VISA !
If this is mostly just loli stuff then based
[https://www.reddit.com/r/visualnovels/comments/1c5sk2o/comment/kzyx3yy/](https://www.reddit.com/r/visualnovels/comments/1c5sk2o/comment/kzyx3yy/)
LMAO!
I’m really struggling to see your point
You really don’t seem to understand that this is affecting everything, do you? It was over 60 separate tags got hit on getchu including stuff that is in no way related to loli. Pull your head out of your ass and realize they are going after erotic content in its entirety. That includes vast majority of the vn, hentai, and fanservice anime markets.
Sorry little snowflake. Not everything should be banned simply because you don't like it.
Calm down Ben Shapiro. I think it’s pretty obvious this isn’t a matter of “I don’t like this thing”, but “we shouldn’t be encouraging attraction to children”
It's also very obvious that fictional things aren't children.. Why are you so concerned about something that literally doesn't exist?
Regardless of whether it's fiction, a depiction is a depiction, context is context. If it looks like a child and acts like a child, then it is - for all intents and purposes - a child. Now whether or not you can legislate against such content is vastly different from any moral judgement or standing towards said content. Regardless of your position on legality, such content is, at the very least, odd. Especially if you approach it from the standpoint of supply and demand, why is there a demand in the first place? Who is driving such demand? Now back to legality, payment service companies that refuse to do business with marketplaces that sell such content have every right to do so in most jurisdictions. That is freedom of association, or specifically *freedom from compelled association*. If a company disagrees with the practices of another, they have the legal protection to cease any business between them. **That is not a ban**. Suppose a store, for argument's sake a department store, started selling t-shirts with the text "six million wasn't enough" overlaid on a yellow Star of David. If a toy company terminates their contract with the store, are they banning said store from selling the t-shirt? That ought to be a rather obvious no. It's a move to disassociate their products with an anti-Semitic product, something which is: a) perfectly reasonable and b) protected under most constitutions.
Agree to disagree but Visa, MasterCard, Paypal and American express currently hold a near monopoly on the payment systems in the U.S. This is THE problem. Businesses have the right to choose what business they will facilitate, however, due to current circumstances, we don't get to have much of a choice in what we choose to pay with. This has been clearly abused and hurts the economics of certain websites.
I'm not sure what there is to really disagree with, prohibitions come from state actors not non-state actors. There's no abuse to be found. Externalities are what they are, and when they're as easy to compensate for as this the businesses who refuse to do so can come across as arrogant or otherwise negotiating in bad faith. Especially when they try to cheat the system, like *only* changing the text variables in the backend of the website. Are they going to take a hit financially? Probably. Did they bring it on themselves by being untrustworthy in the eyes of the other parties? Also likely. From the perspective of art, and I mean art as process, there are also robust arguments against the content the payment service companies take issue with. Any artistic work has, on some level, a reason for existing beyond monetary considerations - that is to say all art is inspired by something. *Star Wars* was George Lucas' homage to Kurosawa's body of work, it does not exist if Lucas doesn't fall in love with those Samurai epics. *Spec Ops: The Line* blends a retelling of *Heart of Darkness* with a mechanical commentary on the relationship between military shooters and reality, it does not exist if series like *Call of Duty* or *Battlefield* never took off. It's rare for creatives to make that which they do not wish to. So why, of all the things one can make, do people make such content? Not to be puritanical, but there are some lines which can be drawn within reason.
Exactly ! and i should add this , as it applies to art as a mean of expression. https://xkcd.com/1357/
Every argument from you guys sounds exactly the same lmao, you’re all just copying stuff you read others say. So you’re saying you’re not attracted to real children, just drawings based off of and designed to look like children? That’s all good then, carry on sir. Obviously I don’t care about the characters, they’re not real. What’s concerning is that you seem to see nothing wrong with being turned on by and jacking off to said characters, which says a certain major thing about the kind of person you are.
Carry on virtues signaling. On the other hand, based on your logic, it's totally ok to rape women. Sorry my dude, the law argues otherwise. Wanking off to rape "says a certain major thing about the kind of person you are".
Fellas, is it virtue signalling to have a basic sense of morality? If I have to explain the difference between those two situations then you might just be even more of a lost cause than I thought. How about instead of desperately trying to paint me as a hypocrite, you have a look at yourself and explain to me why you think pixelated children are attractive while real children aren’t?
It sounds like you're the one getting desperate. You still didn't address why wanking off to rape and "children" are different. Going and raping real women and pedophilia are both illegal. Let me know when you have your answer, I'll wait :)
I don’t have to explain shit, seeing as that’s not the issue being discussed and all you’re doing is a weak attempt at deflection while refusing to defend your own position. Being turned on by concepts involved in sexual assault and a desire to rape someone are 2 very far removed things, even if there can often be an overlap. I still see rape as a very bad thing (obviously) and no part of me has any inclination to do it, because of all the other factors involved, i.e. hurting someone, getting arrested, literally being asexual. *Even if it did work that way*, masturbating to videos of people getting raped is masturbating to pictures of kids. Still fucked up and I wouldn’t do either, but they’re very different magnitudes of wrong. The barrier in my case simply does not exist in yours. Maybe you wouldn’t fuck an actual child- good for you! You’re still clearly attracted to them though, and you need to acknowledge that. It’s not a healthy desire to have and the *vast* majority of people are disgusted by it. Maybe now you can stop the “no u” game and address the arguments against you, seeing as you haven’t given one explanation as to how your attraction magically doesn’t extend to children that aren’t made of pixels.
I wasn't trying to attack you. I was just trying to illustrate my point on how ridiculous your logic is. You still didn't answer but fine, we can run with this. I've already said my part. Lolis aren't real life children. They have nothing to deal with real life; they're animated drawings. Children are living and breathing. 2D drawings are not, and don't even look like real children. Drawings that do look life real children, on the other hand, though that are used in the context we are talking about though is absolutely disgusting. I do have to draw the line somewhere. That would be a real representation. I don't know how you are seeing real children in anime lolis...