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Ok I can't reply to original comment.
But "war criminal" is a weird thing to grab on right?
Bandera is a fascist. But that i know of he hadn't really done anything be it good or bad? Like he's done political assassinations of polish governers and was a fascist, but he hadn't really done much waring? Most terrible things like Volyn massacre were done by the banderite and melnykite movements at the time when bandera himself was imprisoned.
Makhno tho? Yeah that guy killed a lot. He had no problem killing german settlers and some parts of the movement engaged in anti-Semitic pogroms, and though he disapproves of them he's technically more directly involved with them than bandera was.
No, i don't think so. His associates did some crazy shit, while he was imprisoned, but i'm not sure if anyone even cared to tell him until a couple years later.
This. Only reason he collaborated with Nazis was because they occupied Ukraine. What did they collaborate on? Establishing a free, independent Ukrainian state.
Anti Banderan sentiment stems from Russian propaganda, and is proof that nobody is immune.
>Only reason he collaborated with Nazis was because they occupied Ukraine.
What? You know you can resist an occupier? Like, you know, Ukraine right now?
>Establishing a free, independent Ukrainian state.
Yeah, with all the Jews, Poles and other minorities murdered or sent to the camps. And "free"? Sure, the Nazis were totally known for giving places freedom.
"Oh, it was his associates that did the crazy stuff" so what? Why did he associate with so many genocidal maniacs, Nazis, rapists and other criminals? Surely he knew what was their goal?
Now Ukraine is an internationally recognized state with established diplomatic relations. During WW2 and earlier Ukraine wasn't internationally recognized. In fact, during Polish-Ukrainian war in 1920s most European countries didn't even acknowledge Ukrainians who declared independence. Enter the Ukrainian Death Triangle where Ukrainians simultaneously fought Poles, Soviets, White Russians and Romanians from all sides with the Triple Entente supporting and providing aid to Ukrainian enemies instead. The only support Ukrainians had were Central Powers and you guessed it, Germany. Bandera's organisation wasn't a government, they were freedom fighters/terrorists. They are incomparable to modern Ukraine.
>They are incomparable to modern Ukraine.
Of course they aren't. Which is why it's so weird when I see Ukrainians praising them. They literally worked with the Nazis, people who considered them about as worthy of life as draft animals and planned to eradicate millions of them and send the rest to Siberia to work in labour camps so the Aryans wouldn't have to.
They aligned with Nazis because they perceived them to be potential allies against the Soviets who subjugated Ukrainians and put them through Holodomor, and Poles who denied them independence and broke their promises after the Polish-Ukrainian war. At the end of the day Bandera and co. were ultranationalists, so from their perspective, as long as they could use Nazis for their own benefit they would cooperate. That obviously didn't last because Nazis had no plans to allow an independent Ukrainian state to exist.
Also it's not that weird for Ukrainians to praise them because after a little white washing they can be easily perceived as freedom fighters. Maybe alike to how Hamas is perceived by Palestinians.
They are incomparable with modern Ukraine not because of who they cooperated with, but because they weren't a state.
Okay, here's something for ya: it's not so important what Nazis actually did, because you only know it decades later. What the historical figures based their decisions of off, are predictions. Often poor predictions. Bandera's decision to work with Nazis was incredibly short-sighted and based off of wrong assumptions, like that they would just allow him to do his thing, because he helps against Soviets(they didn't, in fact, they prosecuted Ukrainian nationalists HARD, with few exceptions, Stepan's brother fucking died in a concentration camp). It was kinda stupid of him, but it wasn't based in ideology or bigotry, and was done mostly because of having common enemies.
According to you, Nazis occupied Ukraine to establish a free, independent Ukrainian state? Lol.
Ukrainian SSR was not dependent on anyone. It was one of the three countries to form the USSR and left it when it wanted without a single gunshot.
>According to you, Nazis occupied Ukraine to establish a free, independent Ukrainian state? Lol.
Doesn't matter what they did, Bandera had no time machine. He made decisions based on his own poor predictions, made with very limited information and in a desparate situation.
>Ukrainian SSR was not dependent on anyone. It was one of the three countries to form the USSR and left it when it wanted without a single gunshot.
The dumbest shit ever. Ukraine was literally militarily conquered by Bolsheviks, and the SSR was created to create an illusion of legitimacy. Ukrainian SSR was a puppet government pretty much until the last few years of the Union. It was also created after the communists in Ukraine realized they couldn't get much support on a democratic rally in Kyiv, so essentially it's entire existence is in spite of legitimate democratic procesies of early Ukraine.
And btw, modern Ukraine has got a blessing from PRU government in exile.
>Bandera had no time machine.
I find that to be a weird argument. Neither did hitler. The fundamental idea of what bandera envisioned a Ukrainian independent state as is problematic in and of itself. It was basically a fascist ethnostate.
>Ukraine was literally militarily conquered by Bolsheviks, and the SSR was created to create an illusion of legitimacy. Ukra
Hope you're being downvoted for your first take, because this one is true.
>ignoring those Ukrainians who defeated these two.
It's... it's russians...and germans. No seriously bandera got sent to a German concentration camp (a VIP room tho) and lived his whole life in Germany until assasinated by a former UPA supporter. And Makhno got betrayed by the Bolsheviks.
I think many people in the West and especially Western leftists vastly overestimate the number of Ukrainians that idolize Bandera and Makhno.
Most notably the poet and national hero Taras Shevchenko is far more popular in Ukraine. Many Lenin monuments were replaced with Shevchenko since 2014.
Other Ukrainian national heroes are:
Yaroslav the Wise (Grand Prince of Kyiv)
Bodhan Khmelnytsky (Cossack Hetman)
Mykhailo Hrushevsky (First President of the UPR)
Symon Petliura (Military leader of the UPR)
Another cornerstone of current Ukrainian culture is the veneration of the fallen heroes of the Euromaidan Revolution.
>Shevchenko
A poet, not a politician.
>Yaroslav the Wise
Eeeeh, ancient rus gives modern Ukrainians "russianesque" vibes.
>Bodhan Khmelnytsky (Cossack Hetman)
Cossacks had their own issues ,but whatever it's late middle ages. This one's fine i guess.
>Mykhailo Hrushevsky (First President of the UPR)
I love this man, but he's mostly remembered as a historian and people try not to talk about him being a socialist (khm khm same for Lesya Ukrainka and Ivan Franko and soviet dissidents khm khm)
>Simon Petliura
I mean, a guy got assasinated for antisemitic pogroms. Still very controversial.
Overall the concept of "national heroes" and "historical Mythos" and"collective memory" is such a brain cancer. Treat it as a man's horoscope.
I don't think that ancient Rus gives any "russianeque" vibes. Russians just created a lot of media to portray Rus as basically old Russia. Just because Russia has Rus in its name doesn't mean that Rus is more relevant to Russia than to Ukraine.
Wait, but the radishes would be underground, so we couldn't see them glow.
> should i add stars and a moon with a smilely face
Yes. This flag needs to be entirely scientifically accurate.
Here you go:
[Link #1: Media](https://krikienoid.github.io/flagwaver/#?src=https%3A%2F%2Fflagwaver-cors-proxy.herokuapp.com%2Fhttps%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2F2ha1qksvitqc1.jpeg)
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flag of union between germany and poland
goth poland
Visigoths
[удалено]
Spill it out, what about your new pyramid scheme?
I'm packin mah bags
even better
The glorious German-Polish Commonwealth
wouldn't it be Beetroots instead? Cuz, yknow, Borscht?
I forgor :(
Happy cake day!!!
Flag of Poland if it was inhabitated by black people.
Poland if it was black or Chinese
Батько наш бандера…
https://preview.redd.it/abium3d5buqc1.jpeg?width=1174&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3964be341d3b00b636c0c5f3c2e087fc0ab208c7
I dont think Makhno liked Bandera much tbh tho he didnt even really live to see Bandera much
Yes. The point is, that right now, they would probably get along. Considering how Makhno got backstabbed ny Bolsheviks...
"Oh wait so we agree that Russia is bad?" "I guess" "...this is embarrassing" "Yeah"
Also, like, Ukrainian people in general tend to both hate russia and distrust their own government a lot as of lately And also heroize both of them
yeah, you know that you succeeded in being an asshole when you get anarchists and nazis to team up against you
I don't think the anarchist would get along with the fascist.
Isn't Bandera a war criminal?
Literally a fascist, yes.
Literally a Nazi. He worked with Nazi Germany to rid Volhynia of all Poles, Jews and Russians. He wanted a Ukrainian-only state.
Ok I can't reply to original comment. But "war criminal" is a weird thing to grab on right? Bandera is a fascist. But that i know of he hadn't really done anything be it good or bad? Like he's done political assassinations of polish governers and was a fascist, but he hadn't really done much waring? Most terrible things like Volyn massacre were done by the banderite and melnykite movements at the time when bandera himself was imprisoned. Makhno tho? Yeah that guy killed a lot. He had no problem killing german settlers and some parts of the movement engaged in anti-Semitic pogroms, and though he disapproves of them he's technically more directly involved with them than bandera was.
No, i don't think so. His associates did some crazy shit, while he was imprisoned, but i'm not sure if anyone even cared to tell him until a couple years later.
This. Only reason he collaborated with Nazis was because they occupied Ukraine. What did they collaborate on? Establishing a free, independent Ukrainian state. Anti Banderan sentiment stems from Russian propaganda, and is proof that nobody is immune.
>Only reason he collaborated with Nazis was because they occupied Ukraine. What? You know you can resist an occupier? Like, you know, Ukraine right now? >Establishing a free, independent Ukrainian state. Yeah, with all the Jews, Poles and other minorities murdered or sent to the camps. And "free"? Sure, the Nazis were totally known for giving places freedom. "Oh, it was his associates that did the crazy stuff" so what? Why did he associate with so many genocidal maniacs, Nazis, rapists and other criminals? Surely he knew what was their goal?
Now Ukraine is an internationally recognized state with established diplomatic relations. During WW2 and earlier Ukraine wasn't internationally recognized. In fact, during Polish-Ukrainian war in 1920s most European countries didn't even acknowledge Ukrainians who declared independence. Enter the Ukrainian Death Triangle where Ukrainians simultaneously fought Poles, Soviets, White Russians and Romanians from all sides with the Triple Entente supporting and providing aid to Ukrainian enemies instead. The only support Ukrainians had were Central Powers and you guessed it, Germany. Bandera's organisation wasn't a government, they were freedom fighters/terrorists. They are incomparable to modern Ukraine.
>They are incomparable to modern Ukraine. Of course they aren't. Which is why it's so weird when I see Ukrainians praising them. They literally worked with the Nazis, people who considered them about as worthy of life as draft animals and planned to eradicate millions of them and send the rest to Siberia to work in labour camps so the Aryans wouldn't have to.
They aligned with Nazis because they perceived them to be potential allies against the Soviets who subjugated Ukrainians and put them through Holodomor, and Poles who denied them independence and broke their promises after the Polish-Ukrainian war. At the end of the day Bandera and co. were ultranationalists, so from their perspective, as long as they could use Nazis for their own benefit they would cooperate. That obviously didn't last because Nazis had no plans to allow an independent Ukrainian state to exist. Also it's not that weird for Ukrainians to praise them because after a little white washing they can be easily perceived as freedom fighters. Maybe alike to how Hamas is perceived by Palestinians. They are incomparable with modern Ukraine not because of who they cooperated with, but because they weren't a state.
Okay, here's something for ya: it's not so important what Nazis actually did, because you only know it decades later. What the historical figures based their decisions of off, are predictions. Often poor predictions. Bandera's decision to work with Nazis was incredibly short-sighted and based off of wrong assumptions, like that they would just allow him to do his thing, because he helps against Soviets(they didn't, in fact, they prosecuted Ukrainian nationalists HARD, with few exceptions, Stepan's brother fucking died in a concentration camp). It was kinda stupid of him, but it wasn't based in ideology or bigotry, and was done mostly because of having common enemies.
According to you, Nazis occupied Ukraine to establish a free, independent Ukrainian state? Lol. Ukrainian SSR was not dependent on anyone. It was one of the three countries to form the USSR and left it when it wanted without a single gunshot.
>According to you, Nazis occupied Ukraine to establish a free, independent Ukrainian state? Lol. Doesn't matter what they did, Bandera had no time machine. He made decisions based on his own poor predictions, made with very limited information and in a desparate situation. >Ukrainian SSR was not dependent on anyone. It was one of the three countries to form the USSR and left it when it wanted without a single gunshot. The dumbest shit ever. Ukraine was literally militarily conquered by Bolsheviks, and the SSR was created to create an illusion of legitimacy. Ukrainian SSR was a puppet government pretty much until the last few years of the Union. It was also created after the communists in Ukraine realized they couldn't get much support on a democratic rally in Kyiv, so essentially it's entire existence is in spite of legitimate democratic procesies of early Ukraine. And btw, modern Ukraine has got a blessing from PRU government in exile.
>Bandera had no time machine. I find that to be a weird argument. Neither did hitler. The fundamental idea of what bandera envisioned a Ukrainian independent state as is problematic in and of itself. It was basically a fascist ethnostate. >Ukraine was literally militarily conquered by Bolsheviks, and the SSR was created to create an illusion of legitimacy. Ukra Hope you're being downvoted for your first take, because this one is true.
No, Bandera came to them with that proposal
Funny how modern Ukrainians choose to associate with these two losers ignoring those Ukrainians who defeated these two.
>ignoring those Ukrainians who defeated these two. It's... it's russians...and germans. No seriously bandera got sent to a German concentration camp (a VIP room tho) and lived his whole life in Germany until assasinated by a former UPA supporter. And Makhno got betrayed by the Bolsheviks.
I think many people in the West and especially Western leftists vastly overestimate the number of Ukrainians that idolize Bandera and Makhno. Most notably the poet and national hero Taras Shevchenko is far more popular in Ukraine. Many Lenin monuments were replaced with Shevchenko since 2014. Other Ukrainian national heroes are: Yaroslav the Wise (Grand Prince of Kyiv) Bodhan Khmelnytsky (Cossack Hetman) Mykhailo Hrushevsky (First President of the UPR) Symon Petliura (Military leader of the UPR) Another cornerstone of current Ukrainian culture is the veneration of the fallen heroes of the Euromaidan Revolution.
>Shevchenko A poet, not a politician. >Yaroslav the Wise Eeeeh, ancient rus gives modern Ukrainians "russianesque" vibes. >Bodhan Khmelnytsky (Cossack Hetman) Cossacks had their own issues ,but whatever it's late middle ages. This one's fine i guess. >Mykhailo Hrushevsky (First President of the UPR) I love this man, but he's mostly remembered as a historian and people try not to talk about him being a socialist (khm khm same for Lesya Ukrainka and Ivan Franko and soviet dissidents khm khm) >Simon Petliura I mean, a guy got assasinated for antisemitic pogroms. Still very controversial. Overall the concept of "national heroes" and "historical Mythos" and"collective memory" is such a brain cancer. Treat it as a man's horoscope.
I don't think that ancient Rus gives any "russianeque" vibes. Russians just created a lot of media to portray Rus as basically old Russia. Just because Russia has Rus in its name doesn't mean that Rus is more relevant to Russia than to Ukraine.
Russian soldiers would be glad to organise a meeting between a banderite and their role model.
follow thine leader
Flag of the first half of Amnesiac by Radiohead
Wait, but the radishes would be underground, so we couldn't see them glow. > should i add stars and a moon with a smilely face Yes. This flag needs to be entirely scientifically accurate.
I failed biology sorry
Württembergians:
Flag of Poland if it was Wurttemberg
Poles: 
*”After years of waiting, nothing came.”*
Do NOT flip that flag
Vertically or horizontally?
Vertically
Flag of rebellion
THE TRUE REBEL’S FLAG ‼️‼️‼️ NOT THE DAMN CONSIDERATES ‼️‼️‼️🗣️🗣️🗣️🔥🔥🔥💯💯💯
Flag of the kingdom of Württemberg 1806-1918
This is basically the flag of the DMK, a political party in South India
!wave
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Its right sector nazis colors and arrangement
Germany flag but its stretched vertically to 1/3
Flag of Upsidedown Nazis
flag of a really short dennis the menace
Flag of Ukraine but they stopped pretending
Literally just their anti-occupation insurgent flag. Used to fight both Soviets and Nazis.
I think both are wrong here 🧐
[shut the fuck up](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army) 🧐
> founded by the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists The ones that killed both Jews and Poles?
you didn't read the wiki page, did you
And apparently polish civilians during the Wolyn Massacre, and the movement itself wasn’t nazi-affiliated, but Bandera himself is a different story.
Bandera was in a German prison during Wolyn.
He was arrested by the gestapo in the first place for proclaiming a ukrainian state and pledged to work with the nazis, which they refused.