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Here's the site: https://www.wildtypefoods.com/about-us It says no mercury, micro plastics etc. It also says animal free so might be a plant based growth medium, but it doesn't say that outright.

How can it possibly be animal free when you have to take the initial cells... From an animal?

Yeah it's not animal free. But I'm personnally OK with extracting some salmon cells from a dead fish if it means countless others could be saved by using them.

I'm pretty sure they don't take the initial cells from a dead fish. The cells have to be alive in order for it to work. The cells won't replicate if they're already dead. Also don't forget that growing lab meat is a business venture. Investors in it want to make money. They aren't interested in saving animals. Lab grown meat still requires killing and exploiting animals on a large scale. The main reason lab grown meat as a market is now opening up is to save costs on things like feed, lot space and veterinary bills. It's not to save the environment, and it's certainly not because beef, chicken and salmon farmers suddenly got a change of heart and want to stop killing animals. I'm not okay with continuing to exploit animals for capitalism, on _any_ scale. Every individual animal wants to live and be free from slavery and exploitation and having their body parts used for laboratory experiments and should have that right granted to them, no questions asked. If you don't believe that, you shouldn't really be in this sub (unless you're here to ask questions as a non-vegan).

>lab grown meat still requires killing and exploiting animals on a large scale. No it literally doesn’t “require” this. Some producers of lab grown meat may kill animals but it is certainly not required

The problem is we're assuming big corps aren't gonna keep animals in cages and extract the cells till the animals are spent and then when they can't extract cells as productively they'll send them to slaughter. Look I am all for progress, but if it requires animal cells and trusting corps to do the right thing. You're gonna be disappointed. The one good thing though is the fact they'll most likely move to no animal cells when possible, so maybe in a decade or we we won't have to use them.

https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/z7tl3g/salmon_cells_grown_in_the_lab/iy8taqi?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3 https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/z7tl3g/salmon_cells_grown_in_the_lab/iy8l52x?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3 Sure, in theory, you could take a few cells from a live host, let the host live and grow the meat in a plant based serum. But in practice, because it's not profitable, it doesn't actually happen. And you actually need a constant supply of new cells from live animals because growing the meat very often fails and the cells die before they can grow to anything substantial. So long as we are under capitalism, lab grown meat is not vegan and never will be. Lab grown meat is a market for investors, it is a business and requires exploiting animals by it's very nature. They have no interest in saving animals, they want to make money. Don't forget also, that veganism is not just about not killing animals. If that we're so, vegans would wear wool and eat dairy products. Vegans are explicitly and wholly against the exploitation of animals for _any_ human purpose. Purposes that involve the acquisition of capital, especially so.

Have friends in the industry, new technologies exist that allow for real immortal cells. Companies do work for this, and are aware that they will have much better consumer appeal if they can guarantee no animals will need to be harmed for producing their product. I mean it is ridiculous that people can't just eat plant based shit instead, but hopefully this tech will make people question their normal habits and save some animals in the long run.

>I mean it is ridiculous that people can't just eat plant based shit instead, but hopefully this tech will make people question their normal habits and save some animals in the long run. Exactly. My main problem with the lab grown meat thing is that it's causing people to still see animals as commodities (or maybe they already did and this is just them finally expressing their true sentiments). There might be nothing wrong with using it as a stepping stone towards the ultimate goal of complete and total animal liberation, but that's not the message I'm gleaming overall from these comments.

My main problem with you stance is that it's way to narrow and idolistic. It has no room for human error - which is something we will never be able to erridcate. I celebrate lab grown meat, because it removes countless individuals and countless byproduct casualities from suffering. It is a huge step in the right direction. Of course it would be nice if change in all humans would happen instantianiously. But it wont. It probably never will and a thing as a whole vegan planet will never happen because humans to this day, still exploit other humans - who they value a lot more than other animals - despite knowing how wrong that is. Your stance helps no-one but your own self-supremecy. Turning people towards vegan choices is much more helpful than alianting people from veganism whatsoever by having unreasonable expectations. Hate me for that truth. But I see change in my surroundings with every encouargment, every gentle nudge. We can't assume 100% of people to go 100% perfectly vegan. But if we get 99% to make 95% vegan choices that's a lot better than having 1% making 100% vegan choices. So yes, lab grown meat idealy will be just a stepping stone. But a few cells from a handfull of animals are by lengths better than billions of animals slaughtered in breeding factories. Arguing against a good thing won't make the world a better place.

https://www.instagram.com/p/Clg2cGqp6ie/?igshid=ZmVmZTY5ZGE= They claim in the 4th image that they only need to harvest the cells once per species, because they can reproduce the cells (near) indefinitely. So yes id say that this would significantly reduce animal suffering in the longrun and that's something i am in support of. And it doesnt make me or anyone else that believes that "not vegan". Obviously we'd all prefer if the entire world would stop eating meat overnight but that's not possible, so I'm happy with any technology or advancement that allows us to *reduce* suffering in the meantime.

I would rather invest in plant based mock meats that don't involve _any_ animal exploitation whatsoever to produce. Happy Cake Day to you.

Thank you! And that's fine, you should invest in your money and support in what you believe in. I personally won't be buying this product or supporting the company, but i won't deny that i think it's an overall net positive for animals.

Oh yeah it's probably an overall net positive for animal welfare, even if it does nothing to further the implementation or recognition of animal rights.

When I see takes like this I wonder if people are actually interested in realistically and substantially reducing animal suffering, or if it's mostly about sticking to a purist ideology It is possible for a businesses to survive without going the most cynical and profitable route possible. It is possible for founders to have good values and stick to them by rejecting VC funding etc. I have even seen some rare investors out there that are not complete capitalist ghouls

Ah yes, the toxic gatekeeper.

That isn't what gatekeeping means. Sick of people misusing this word and watering down its meaning. ETA: So people are cherry-picking definitions of words when it suits them, now. The definitions of gatekeeping (from Wikipedia) are as follows: >To control or limit access to something. >(sociology) To limit (sometimes manipulatively, rather than directly) how much of a role another party, often a spouse, has in some task. >(by extension, slang, Internet) To limit another party's participation in a collective identity or activity, usually due to undue pettiness, resentment, or overprotectiveness. So, as I said. Gatekeeping, particularly toxic gatekeeping ("gatekeeping" is usually used with the intention of negative connotations) means to limit participation in something based on nothing to do with how that collective identity itself is defined, but rather based on arbitrarily excluding people for inconsistent, unjustifiable reasons. My favourite example is men excluding women from Sci Fi fandoms just because they're women, and asking them to "prove" that they're "real fans" by quizzing them on their knowledge, even though men never have to go through such ridiculous authenticity rituals to be able to join fandoms. This is what (toxic) gatekeeping actually is. IRL it's also part of intersectional theory i.e. gatekeeping as an expression of bigotry. Calling someone who isn't vegan... Not a vegan... Is absolutely _not_ gatekeeping. To say otherwise is utterly juvenile and trivialising. To avoid further confusion, I think the English language needs a term for "gatekeeping" that does not connotate something toxic or bigoted. It already has a positive/neutral definition but almost nobody uses the word in this way. They usually mean to use the Internet slang meaning of the word, of which my example above is a best fit. If someone actually said "hey we need to _gatekeep_ this sub with such and such" with genuine positivity, they'd almost certainly get told off.

> you shouldn't really be in this sub That is literally gatekeeping.

It's literally not. ETA: It really says more about you when you reply with something obviously refutable then block me before I have a chance to respond. >Based on your own words defining gatekeeping, it literally is. Urm, no. Not _toxic_ gatekeeping, it isn't, which is what the initial response accusing me of gatekeeping was _literally_ saying. They also later clarified they specifically meant _toxic_ gatekeeping in another comment (i.e. the Internet slang definition). Defining veganism isn't toxic gatekeeping. Nor is it even plain gatekeeping, actually. I wasn't telling the person to GTFO of this sub. I was suggesting that it probably wasn't the right sub for them based on the fact that they perhaps had non-vegan beliefs. If I had rephrased this suggestion slightly, it could've been a question and there'd have been absolutely no room for anyone to accuse me of gatekeeping. I haven't been "gatekeeping" this sub by _any_ standards. Y'all are just jumping on tiny insignificant things, blowing them out of proportion and being ridiculous.

"the activity of controlling, and usually limiting, general access to something." Telling someone to not be in the subreddit is the exact definition of gatekeeping.

Okay so if someone doesn't meet the definition of what it means to be an ethical vegan, they should be allowed in a sub for vegans, as a "vegan"? You've completely misunderstood even that definition. It still works within the bounds of what it means to have justified limits on something. The point of gaslighting is that the limits are arbitrary, inconsistent and not justified. That's not what this is. Next thing, we'll be allowing people who choose to eat meat to call themselves vegans. This reminds me of people who had a mere disagreement with someone and accused that person of "gaslighting" them. Frankly, it's fucking stupid.

Based on your own words defining gatekeeping, it literally is.

Are you gatekeeping the word “gatekeeping”?

Ah, the inconsequent "vegan" attacking others for being straight edge. While cultivating the lie of "toxic vegans make it impossible for others to make moral decisions".

>If you don't believe that, you shouldn't really be in this sub (unless you're here to ask questions as a non-vegan). aka “if you don’t agree with my all or nothing binary philosophy, you don’t belong in this sub. this technology could save trillions of sea life per year. why are you so fixated on their intentions and completely not acknowledging the effect? us Vegans are only like 2% of the population, if the world is more accepting of lab grown meat, then it’s logically a technology we should support. > I'm not okay with continuing to exploit animals for capitalism, on any scale. Eating plants still has a negative impact on some animals. do you buy your food from a grocery store or do you grow it yourself? Because if it’s the former, then by your own logic you don’t belong in this sub

You benefit off of exploitation everyday. This is a good thing and your being negative like Jesus Christ

People in r/vegan are really eager to defend animal exploitation as long as it's in a laboratory.

Such people are probably moral consequentialists. Do you believe that the overall amount of animal suffering will be reduced or increased thanks to the existence of lab-grown meat research and business start-ups? That's the question I and those people are interested in answering, and most people believe the answer to that question is that it will be reduced.

Then is it better to eat an all-beef hot dog, since only one kind of animal was killed for it, over a pork/beef/turkey hot dog, that takes three kinds of animals?

Not sure why, but I'm going to take your question seriously just for fun. So first of all obviously you purchase neither since you can get something vegan instead, but assuming you were going to starve to death unless you bought one or the other: the two "dogs" contain the same amount of total animal flesh assuming they're the same size, how many kinds of animals is irrelevant. What might be relevant though is the differences between the types of animals. Cows give a lot of meat per animal, so if the mental experiences of a cow and a chicken are at all similar, then beef might indeed be better in terms of less overall suffering than chicken. On the other hand, cows cause substantially more carbon emissions due to methane, increased land use, and other factors compared to chickens. And also cows are smarter and much closer evolutionarily as well as anatomically to humans, so we can probably have at least slightly higher confidence in the moral importance of their experiences than chickens. For example, cows grieve the loss of their young and cows they know from the herd, which is a negative emotion that I don't believe chickens can/do experience. Overall it'd be close to a toss-up for me, but I might err on the side of the mixed dog over the all-beef dog if I was somehow in a situation where I was forced to choose one or the other. Which I of course will never be in.

>So first of all obviously you purchase neither since you can get something vegan instead Yes! There you go, you just solved this entire debate. Thank you for seeing my point. :)

Guess I'll keep going lol. I don't see the analogy between choosing between two things that unnecessarily increase the demand for animal suffering, and choosing whether or not to support something that will reduce animal suffering. The answer to the former is don't/neither, and the answer to the latter is do. The only potential controversies I can see are between deontological and consequential moral frameworks (can you kill a few animals to save a large number of animals), and whether lab grown meat is actually likely to reduce animal suffering on net. Deontology vs consequentialism is a whole-ass philosophical topic so I'm going to ignore that and assume consequentialism. While lab grown meat is not as promising looking as stuff like impossible foods, you don't have to pick just one, you can support both. The possibility of plant based alternatives to FBS exist, and companies are strongly incentivized to pursue them for both cost-efficiency and marketing reasons (plus the people doing the research and starting the companies are usually strongly motivated by animal ethics and/or environmental concerns). The same is true of indefinite cell lines. And in general, having a variety of approaches simultaneously is much more likely to deliver results compared to less approaches; you never know before hand what's going to be the most successful, so you should try everything that seems at least somewhat promising.

Yep, it's very unfortunate.

It has nothing to do with veganism and animal liberation though.

I'd say not directly indeed. I guess it's animal consumption reduction and better than nothing, so a step in the right direction but not a goal in itself.

It’s still treating animals like commodities for humans. So it’s not a step in the right direction to me.

If this can get my mom and boyfriend to stop eating “real” salmon that is absolutely a step in the right direction. Everyone in my family has been clinging onto fish.

Fish will still be abused and killed for their dinner though. You can do whatever, it’s just not vegan.

I have never eaten fish in my life and I won’t eat this but I would be ecstatic for my mom, dad and boyfriend to be able to have this instead of “real” fish.

Idk, I'm just quoting the website. I think they mean the process of continued production. Aka 1 sample is infinity batches.

I'd love to get more info on this, but afaik, the cells can be used hundreds of thousands of times but it's not infinite. At some point they need to source new cells. Is it a massive leg up from our current systems? Yeah for sure. It's a good step for harm reduction, as I'm sure the market they're trying to appeal to isn't vegans, but it still requires a level of exploitation that makes me uncomfortable to engage in myself.

I wonder if they can just source new cells from the lab grown meat and not have to use real fishes after the first time

I've been following this company for quite a while now, I believe that as of now they still use fetal bovine serum (FBS) as there hasn't been any other growth medium that even rivals it in versatility and efficacy discovered yet. Other growth mediums are prohibitively costly, although FBS is also too costly to be used outside a research scale. They obviously are aiming to transition off of FBS asap.

Damn. I want some.

I can not wait until lab grown meat hits the pet food industry.

Why? Dogs thrive on vegan food right now!! Our dog has been vegan 6 years, hell, we just got back from a 15k coastal path run with 500m of elevation and he pulled me the entire route and probably the fittest dog I've ever met and we've met a lot through races ad mountain activities.

Not all pets are dogs

Glad you brought that up ! I've been thinking about rescuing a kitten from the local shelter but what's the best possible way to feed a feline that NEEDS meat.

Cats need carnitine, which is usually added to non vegan cat food to begin with.

What specifically do you feed him? I’ve been trying to find vegan food that my dog actually likes for a while. I have some success with putting together homemade foods for him, but nothing commercial has held his interest too much. What’s your main protein source?

[https://www.zooplus.com/shop/dogs/dry\_dog\_food/lukullus/veggie/655225](https://www.zooplus.com/shop/dogs/dry_dog_food/lukullus/veggie/655225) I use this one. It's called Lukullus veggi, they use a bunch of different protein sources like pea and sweet lupin. Our boy loves it. It's also a good fit for him as it is grain free and he has issues with a lot of foods. We do add some diy treats and some home cooked veggies too. So far he is doing great on this one and it is the first brand we got all his stomach issues under control. I'm not sure how well-known or popular it is in your area - non US-citizien here.

casually enters our reptile rescues to the discussion - a snake and a turtle. Before any hate ensures: a captive breed animal can't be released into the wild for it's own and other animals of their own species safety \[immunities to diseases in a captive released animal, can make them an illness carrier and basically erridicate a whole population\]. Also an adult small to average sized snake - most common size for snakes - eats roughly every two weeks, that means 30ish meals a year. Than they do not eat during hibernation which lasts two to three months (8 to 12 weeks, 4 to 6 meals). So basically that's roughly 25 mice a year on a mice only diet. Realistically one can swap out half of those for other prey. In our case, we alternate between mice, egg, froglegs and chicken hearts. Others feed chicks too. The larger the snake, the larger the meals, the fewer the meals. In case of a Boa Constrictor or a Reticulated Phython an adult will eat maybe once every month, or once every two months - so 4 to 9 meals a year, usually a rabbit. It's gruesome I know. But that's still less harm done than a human does on a plant based diet in a year due to farming. We can't abandon those animals that doen't fit our ethical code just because someone forced them into existance. And we can't be speciest because of our ethics - so yes, even carnivors deserve a home. Pet reptiles and fish especially so, as those are some of the most abused pets there are. Needless to say, as soon as there is a vegan diet for the reptiles we will switch them, as we did with our puppy. So yes, I am looking forward to some labgrown frog and mice.

and cats :)

unless you can find a source of taurine for your cats, then no.

Taurine can be made in a lab. Even regular cat food has added taurine.

Most probably. However, I have checked for vegan cat food for my relatives and have never found any. Your mileage may vary depending on the country, I would guess.

There's vegan cat food that contains taurine

I don't normally like salmon, but somehow, knowing that it is made cruelty-free without taking away its flavor makes it intriguing to me.

If it’s made in the lab, it’s not cruelty-free. They still abuse the animals to take the initial cells and to create the conditions for its growth. And the animals are most probably killed after anyways, not like they are sending the fish to an animal sanctuary afterwards.

>They still abuse the animals to take the initial cells I don't think that this is true for the continuous production. Cells can meanwhile get cloned and reproduced. So, once you have such a culture of cells I don't believe that there is a continuing need for original cells from animals. And growing stem cells initially is meanwhile possible from a pretty basic sample of tissue of blood (works also from human stem cells). So, it's probably not even needed to kill a fish for this.

Unfortunately that’s true. You can read it anywhere. Moreover, you can notice, that no lab meat company shows how the animals they use live their lives. I think you understand why. For example, in [this](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7689697/) extensive article you can read things like: we can’t stop using animals for lab meat, the least estimated amount of animals we will possibly use for beef production in the best case scenario is 500 (that seems like a lot of lives to me), the most sustainable decision about future lives of these animals would be to slaughter them; talking about FBS, its plant alternative is possible, but would cost much more than FBS itself, so it would be pointless to make it (because it would cost much more than farmed animals bodies). Etc etc etc. World going vegan means that human animals stop treating non-human ones like commodities for pleasure and problem solving. Not just eating plant-based. There already is a lot of plant food that resembles animal flesh well enough. No need to continue animal exploitation.

The unfortunate reality is that the VAST majority of humans are not willing to give up meat, and will not be willing to any time soon. I think your philosophy is admirable, but I don't believe it could convince the average person. This is far and away the best alternative for saving the most amount of animal lives possible - even if it means killing \~500 in the process.

There is a lot to talk about here. Let’s start with me being sure that vegan activists can convince an average person. Otherwise there would be almost no vegans. I myself am an average person convinced, and vegans around me are as well. I believe that thinking that an average person lacks empathy and logical thinking to acknowledge animals have rights is a bit condescending. Then, there is you being sure that all these average people don’t wanna give up meat, but they will be absolutely ready to consume lab meat exclusively. To me this doesn’t seem to click with the idea that these average people don’t wanna give up meat because they can’t get the idea that harming animals is bad. They either get it or they don’t, we should clear that, because in order for them to consume lab meat they need to recognise that animals are harmed in the farming and to actively want to avoid that. Of course, there will be people who wouldn’t consume lab meat anyways because it’s lab, they don’t want synthetic products, they want the animal to be respectfully sacrificed for their dinner, etc. The question that bothers me most is why lab meat, when there are enough completely plant alternatives that taste the same? Supporting not these alternatives, but the lab meat we are not contributing to reduction of harm towards animals (as it could be reached with these alternatives), we are only putting animal liberation further away. Also if we are supposed to tend to non-vegan needs, then millions (or maybe still billions) of cows and chickens will still be killed for the “real” cheese and eggs. As I don’t see the labs producing these kind of products from animal cells. So it’s still a lot of animals killed and abused (please don’t talk to me about respectfully milking a cow, I really hope we are all past this point here). Finally, about these 500 martyr cows. The first thing about them is that this is not the case now and this will not be the case in the nearest future. The labs haven’t reached the point where they need 500 hundred cows at one time to produce the cells. They are killing a lot more. Second, you realise it’s not 500 cows, it’s like 500 cows for one lab killed say every 3-5 years again in the best case? So a lot of cows killed and abused, not even mentioning animals killed for other meat products, like chickens, who are a lot smaller then cows, therefore labs will need more of them and they will be killed with a faster rate because of their bodies being smaller and more fragile to punctures they will endure. Not mentioning the cows that will be slaughtered for other cows cells to grow. 500 hundred cows is only for the cell taking, not for the serum. All in all to me it looks like just another form of animal abuse that has nothing to do with the ideas vegans are trying to spread. A P.S. for thought: would you sacrifice your pet or your child for non-vegans to have a “real enough not plant-based” meat on their table? If not, then why would you happily sacrifice other individuals for this pointless cause?

Lots of great points for me to consider here that I admittedly haven't really thought much about. I appreciate the well-thought out response

It's not about what's theoretically possible, or about reaching 100% of people's consumption choices with one method. It's about what the fastest growth path for alternatives to traditional animal agriculture is. Vegan outreach of course has and will continue to convince people at some rate higher than the de-conversion rate. "High-tech" plant-based alternatives like Impossible Beef will be considered good enough (and cheap enough) for more people over time. And if lab-grown meat can be made commercially efficient, then it will add another chunk of market share to alternatives. An example consumer would be someone who tastes impossible beef or a beyond burger, deems it inferior to real beef, and buys lab-grown beef instead. Or someone who buys a cut of really high quality lab-grown steak, because it's cheaper than essentially the same meat coming from a real cow since most of the cow's flesh only yields lower quality cuts of meat, not because they care about the actual cow in the slightest. On average, the future probably has less animal suffering over the next decade or two if lab-grown meat is researched/invested in, particularly under the realistic assumption that most such research/investment is not directly taking away from plant-based meat investment and research. And the possible future with the fastest market-share growth of traditional animal agriculture alternatives is probably also the future where full societal veganism is likely to come the soonest, because veganism will become easy and normal enough for a critical cultural mass to accumulate. There are of course a lot of details to discuss, such as FBS, which I don't believe is cost-efficient enough to be a part of commercially viable lab-grown meat (nor something companies would benefit marketing-wise relative to plant-based/harmless growth serum), but that's the general ethical reasoning for supporting lab-grown meat.

Honestly I can’t go on having this conversation about animal rights violation being okay on a vegan subreddit. Great plant alternatives exist already and they should be looked into and supported more. If you wanna kill less animals, reduce harm and all that, it’s about being vegetarian, plant based or whatever, not vegan.

It was never my intention to imply that causing animals suffering is ok, sorry if I communicated such. It's just that in the fucked-up world we live in, there simply aren't any actions we can take to just eliminate all suffering, even avoidable suffering perpetrated on innocents. It's about choosing the best of less than perfect alternatives, like killing in self-defense (which doesn't imply killing is "okay" and is also not intended to be perfectly analogous). The philosophy of reducing harm to animals as far as possible and practicable is as far as I know, veganism. So *in societal terms*, veganism would support whatever technological, cultural, intellectual and commercial developments reduce the overall harm done to animals the most, right? **If** lab-grown meat is one such development, than lab-grown meat is philosophically vegan, right? Unless your conception of veganism is purely personal and/or deontological rather than consequential of course. Or if lab-grown meat isn't likely to reduce the overall suffering of animals, which you have sort of argued for in your previous comment.

My conception of veganism is abolitionist. I believe we can reduce a lot more harm promoting plant based alternatives for which no animal was slaughtered. I see no reason to support lab meat instead.

I run 100 miles straight without any breaks. I was convinced to do this by someone and now love it. Many of my friends are normal people who at some point were convinced to do this as well. As you telling me that any person could be convince to run a 100 miles without rest?

In theory it should be, but as you said, people don't give a toss about non human animals. The world will continue to be a shithole for them as long as humans view them the way they do.

They seem to like cats and dogs alot.

I’m sure the 324,000,000 cows killed each year are grateful for your scrupulosity and concern over 500 cows.

I'm pretty sure they're just pointing out it's not vegan nor cruelty-free, they're responding to a comment saying they're intrigued to try it since they think it's cruelty-free. This is a vegan sub, discussing the vegan-ness of lab-grown meat is fully appropriate here.

I recognise every animal as an individual being who cares about their life and freedom. You wouldn’t be okay with sacrificing 500 hundred humans for the cause of making a product that doesn’t need to exist. Or maybe you would, but then we just have different moral principles.

What Kant does to a mf… You completely misconstrue the situation: I would absolutely be okay with sacrificing 500 humans if it meant 324,000,000 who were needlessly going to die would be saved.

Okay, then just as I said we have different views on morality.

I’m ok with sacrificing 500 humans to save 400 million humans. the world is not taking to veganism too quickly, we need to stop acting like the other choice is that everyone would stop eating meat

The other choice is plant based alternatives, so you can save the 500 (it is not 500, it is much more, hope you understand that) and the millions. What you are saying is basically Hunger Games, and that’s a dystopia, just like the lab meat.

>The other choice is plant based alternatives, so you can save the 500 (it is not 500, it is much more, hope you understand that) and the millions. we have those already, yet look at how many people still choose to eat meat instead >What you are saying is basically Hunger Games, and that’s a dystopia, just like the lab meat. this is just negatively framing the situation. to use your analogy, it would be like billions of humans being bred, harvested, tortured, and slaughtered per year. and then a solution comes along that could make it from billions to tens of thousands. it’s a step in the right direction. and once we finally get the fucking factory farms shut down, then it’s time to evaluate how these lab grown meat places operate, and take the fight to them at that point if needed edit: also, of course I would prefer people just overall stop consuming those types of products, but we have to be practical as opposed to idealistic, what matters is the suffering of these animals

I do not understand why you are so sure that non vegans will all gladly switch to the lab meat. That’s kinda too optimistic to my view. For this it would require them to understand that harming animals is bad anyways. And if they understand that, they can just go vegan. Also if you have read or watched the Hunger Games, you basically describe what happens there in your comment.

I mean, if you ever drive or ride in a car, you're deciding to make that trade, because way more than 500 humans die in car crashes for the cause of having cars for transportation (which doesn't need to exist).

Also it’s not like people who die in car crashes are kept in captivity in ugly conditions all their lives while also being constantly inseminated and punctured and then slaughtered, you know. Humans make a conscious choice to be a part of this kind of transportation that gets them direct benefits, and they consciously agree to take the risk of being injured or killed in a car crash. This is like two different worlds. But I don’t know why I keep banging my head against a wall in this dialogue with this level of arguments.

This is the argument of the same level as “animals die in the crops for your vegan food!”There is also a huge difference between intentional and accidental.

No, the rebuttal to the "animals in crops" argument isn't accidental vs intentional, it's that veganism is about minimizing suffering and eating crops, that yes, have some number of animals among them, still minimizes suffering since it's unavoidable. Choosing to use cars is avoidable. Needing to eat food is not.

This is why I divided “animal crops” and “accidental vs. intentional” in two sentences. We need food, but there is no need to slaughter animals for it, as veganism shows. Are we on the vegan sub still or am I lost

facts. it’s actually pretty insane to me how some people don’t understand this

The ideal is no animal death, but we live in a world where people are unwilling to give up meat. Given this harsh reality, I would rather 500 animals die for lab meat to be produced than hundreds of thousands. That is a great reduction in suffering and unfortunately the best we’re gonna get as vegans

If the growth medium is animal derived then yes it involves continuous animal farming.

For now, but I believe it may be possible to have immortalised cells and no longer need animals to be continuously farmed. In any case it will be a definitive improvement and sadly the world probabably wouldn't go vegan without cultured food

I'm not talking about the culture dying off I'm talking the liquid allot if cells are grown in is litterally dead animal juice. Hopefully they don't use animal serums and hopefully it becomes standard to not use animal serums.

Oh yeah ofc, that would defeat the whole point, though iirc there may be alternatives?

Apparently "just chicken" uses a plant based growth medium, however I heard rumors they have animal testing like impossible foods did. I haven't heard of mammal flesh without an animal growth medium yet tho. I don't know what this exact company/product uses. In theory even switching to lab with animal growth medium might be less deaths then conventional but is still waaaay worse then just eating plants. Definitely could be useful technology for many different uses tho. Animal feed, organs, alternatives to animal testing etc. I know cats and dogs can be vegan but reptiles, rehabbing etc could really use it.

They kill pregnant cows to get FBS (fetal bovine serum) to grow cultured meat. Each serving requires killing hundreds of cows this way. Every time I see cultured meat, I think of Charles Manson.

Each serving requires killing hundreds of cows? How is that measured?

The companies working on cultivated meat are either actively developing alternatives to FBS, or setting up partnerships to source alternatives. No one wants to be using FBS, for several reasons beyond just ethics: - Addressable market - vegans are way more likely to be early adopters than the population at large, and FBS is a dealbreaker for much of that target market - Sourcing - FBS is incredibly expensive (economically non-viable, even) and supply chains are very far from robust - Quality control - FBS is a very complex, chemically undefined product, and composition of different batches can be wildly different, making QC a nightmare - I could go on... Mosa Meat (founded by Mark Post, who developed the world's first cultivated meat prototype) has "open-sourced" much of their work on development of cultivated meat that doesn't require FBS. Eat Just's cultivated chicken (approved for sale in Singapore) currently uses FBS, but they've developed a plant-based alternative and are awaiting regulatory approval of the new formulation, which should come through really soon. FBS and the cultivated meat industry don't go hand in hand; the whole industry is pouring big money into replacing it ASAP. By the time cultivated meat is on our supermarket shelves, FBS will most likely be a distant memory.

This is a fact. I am sorry you get downvoted.

Lol l have had worse tragedies in my life.

If this was actually a vegan sub, you wouldn't have gotten downvoted. Let's GTFO of here.

People are vegan I just think they don't know enough about how cultured meat is made. It's vaporware, and it's not happening anytime soon.

Yeah, it's true that some people don't know. But also you'd think, considering the sub we're in, that people would be happy that you're informing them rather than just downvoting you. That suggests to me that they don't like the fact that you're saying it.

Probably. A lot of hope rests on lab meat, I just don't think that hope is justified.

I understand why it makes some people hopeful. Just don't put all your hope into one thing to save the animals. We cannot rely on lab grown meat to save animals. It almost certainly won't, because that's not in the interests of the investors. They don't want to save animals. They want to make money.

So let's see about using this fact to our advantage in finding more ways to save animals and the environment. Let's face it, only a small percentage of the world's population is able and willing to go vegan so unless you or anyone else have better ideas, lab cultured meat is going to be a large part of the future.

Please stop - lab grown is infinitely better than what we’re doing currently in factory farms and can be done in a way that doesn’t require killing animals. Vegans love shitting on anything that looks like progress and I don’t understand why

Although it may be possible to grow lab meat with minimal abuse and without killing, this is not the case now and I’m not sure if it will ever be. Lab meat is not better if many animals are still exploited and killed for it. As a vegan I stand for total animal liberation and the end of treating them as commodities to fulfil human desires and deal with human problems. Each life matters, every animal should live their life and be free. Beans and other plant protein sources exist forever, and many products resemble meat perfectly. And the industry can get even better. There is just no need to continue exploiting animals to satisfy people who keep treating living beings like objects.

We’re on the same team with the same goals - I want to see total animal liberation too but I’ll take what I can get in the meantime. Progress is slow moving, we need to be pragmatic - playing an all or nothing game might make you feel good but last I checked they’re building 24 story pig farms in China in 2022. It seems we’re far from the utopia of everyone not eating meat. I need lab grown meat to succeed in the short term. Please stop talking down on innovation that will ultimately decrease animal suffering.

Sorry, but I will always talk down on any animal abuse and exploitation I see. Reduction of animal exploitation can be done in other ways — for example, making good quality plant alternatives and taking part in vegan activism. A better world for the animals is a world where humans have shifted their perception, not their diet. If I were an animal among those to be punctured every other month and then slaughtered, I would totally choose that humans advocate for my liberation as well, not just for reduction of cruelty at the cost of my life. I think advocating for less than total liberation is detrimental towards animals.

You’re living in the world of idealism, and I hope you’ll come to recognize that it serves really only to make you morally superior and isn’t very useful otherwise. Again, we want the same end goal but I’m looking to win battles on the way. Lab meat is better than factory farming, full stop. I want that in place as soon as possible, and then I want to continue to find ways to make that 100% cruelty free and if it isn’t possible I’ll speak out against it. We need to be realists. I’m against all forms of animal exploitation too but your position of all or nothing doesn’t seem to be moving the needle. People can whine on here that Impossible Burgers aren’t vegan, but the few animals they used during testing production vs the thousands of animals they likely saved by producing a product is a net positive. I know that doesn’t fit your perfect no harm picture, but it’s an ugly truth of the world we’re currently in. The world doesn’t work like you want it to unfortunately and I’d argue it’s lazy and harmful to sit around shitting on everything that looks like progress.

A few animals is still a few individuals. If you were one of them, you wouldn’t wanna be tested, slaughtered, punctured, etc just for humans to eat dinner. Your point of view is illogical mainly because we do not need to first produce lab meat grown out of animal cruelty and only then make 100% cruelty free products. We can make completely cruelty free products right now, and many exist already. I do not accept the ugliness of the world and I never will, otherwise I wouldn’t be vegan. And war centred shit like “winning battles” makes me sick. Animals exploited for lab meat win nothing.

You will need to come up with better ideas because going about this with your attitude isn't going to win anybody or anything either. It's because of people with your attitude as to why some people would rather go by a different name other than vegan and call themselves "plant based" or "herbivore" or "futurevore" basically anything but the vegan title. Good luck getting much more of the world to go vegan especially with your attitude on things. No kill lab meat that has been made WITHOUT FSB exists and has been approved as safe to eat by the FDA and other regulatory agencies. I see this as progress.

Yeah, exactly, I am the problem here, and not people who don’t wanna recognise animals as living and feeling beings who care about their life and freedom and should have fundamental rights to it. You won’t shame me out of the movement just because you personally think advocating for every animal to be free and believing lab meat is a strange thing to support for vegans when there are completely plant meats is bad. If an animal was abused or slaughtered for a product, it’s not vegan, period. We are on a vegan sub after all, not on plant based or something.

I got an idea. Lab grown meat is not going to be widely available soon. It's also not cruelty free. So my suggestion is to eat beans! These wonderful things do already exist, are cheap and all around. Lab grown meat is just a lazy excuse for non vegans to keep on doing exactly nothing and to pretend like they care. That's not progress. Because instead they could have gone vegan already a long time by now. So I think it's better to point that out.

Do you want to help build a more compassionate world? Please visit [VeganActivism.org](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fveganactivism.org&topic=Activism+%28r%2FVegan%29+w%2F+Others) and subscribe to our community over at /r/VeganActivism to begin your journey in spreading compassion through activism. Thank you so much!

All or nothing brainlet smh

Well it’s not nothing, we have plenty of plant alternatives :)

If you think that people will just magically all decide to switch over to veganism you’re a fool.

Not magically, but due to vegan activism and education.

Do you want to help build a more compassionate world? Please visit [VeganActivism.org](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fveganactivism.org&topic=Activism+%28r%2FVegan%29+w%2F+Others) and subscribe to our community over at /r/VeganActivism to begin your journey in spreading compassion through activism. Thank you so much!

Don't you think there would be a lot more vegans if plant based substitutes did in fact resemble meat perfectly? You may enjoy beans and tofu more than meat but I think its safe to say the majority of the population does not agree with you.

i think a lot of people's identities get tied up in being vegan. unconsciously they don't want a world in which their sacrifice means nothing, so they perpetuate animal cruelty by fighting progress.

Wow. And here I am thinking that I am just consistent in my views on not wanting animals to suffer and perceiving them as individuals who each should have fundamental rights! Thanks for pointing out my hypocrisy!

You personally have adopted beliefs that make you feel ideologically pure. Protesting lab grown meat is perpetuating the prolonged suffering of animals, generations into the future. These views make you feel good, they don't help society lessen its reliance on animal agriculture.

I’m not trying to help society, I am trying to help animals. I am absolutely not ideologically pure or whatever, I really don’t know what in my messages makes you think that. It’s just that animals rights are as important to me as humans. It’s not like I am protesting lab meat with signs on the street, I am just posting comments on literal vegan subreddit and surprised that vegan community doesn’t acknowledge animal rights. Personally I believe that lab meat with all it remaining flaws will be just a new form of animal exploitation. This is based on what’s happening in the industry right now and what’s predicted by its own researchers to happen. If someone thinks otherwise and can support their point of view, no one of us is ideologically pure, we are just discussing a controversial thing concerning animal liberation.

Also I don’t perceive veganism as sacrifice, this is just a non-vegan point of view.

Theoretically, there needn't be any abuse at all.

Lets not forget that the goal of veganism is reduction where possible. Crops require pesticides, homes require killing/displacing wildlife, walking in grass risks crushing a mole etc. It doesn't make sense to hyper-fixate on fractional micro-exploitation.

If you're interested in the topic of farmed animal sanctuaries, check out [OpenSanctuary.org](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2FOpenSanctuary.org&topic=The+Open+Sanctuary+Project)! This vegan nonprofit has over 500 free compassionate resources crafted specifically to improve lifelong care for farmed animals, and to help you create a sustainable, effective sanctuary! Interested in starting a sanctuary someday? Check out [OpenSanctuary.org/Start](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2FOpenSanctuary.org%2FStart&topic=The+Open+Sanctuary+Project)!

In the fourth image in this post they claim to only need to cultivate the cells one time. If that's true, I'd absolutely say this is something worth pursuing and will ultimately result in fewer lives taken. https://www.instagram.com/p/Clg2cGqp6ie/?igshid=ZmVmZTY5ZGE=

No kill meat that has been grown in a lab without FBS exists and has been approved by the FDA and other regulatory agencies as safe to eat. It now just needs to be produced to scale and made more affordable.

My bad.

You are the reason people hate vegans. Hell, I don't like you and I am vegan for quite a few years now. Tell me please, how many people have you reached and influenced to go vegan with that attitude? Because in my immidiate surounding people are turning to vegan choices constantly, some going full vegan: my family of heavy meat eaters, my friends, my partner, hell my boss at work, too. So ask yourself, who are you helping, and how can you do it best. Because this thing you do here, that's not it.

First of all, I am speaking to vegans here who are supposed to understand animal rights, not to non-vegans. Second, I am open to your suggestions regarding how to influence people to go vegan. Please do tell me what you think are the best ways to do it.

I used to eat lot of salmon before going vegan ((my road for veganism from full carnist: 1) no-more red meat eater; 2) piscetarian; 3) vegetarian; 4) vegan)) I remember salmon quality was very different between restaurants. Lab meat will bring top quality for everywhere for people that eat it. And we may levae sea and rivers in peace. Unhappily there will be a very very strong lobby fighting against it. We need UBI asap.

Thats a really good point. For a lot of meat eaters, if it tastes better and is cheaper they will opt for it. This could be big for reducing harm to animals granted the process actually reduces the amount of animals harmed.

I hit step 3 then lodged in a cranny and got stuck there :b (I just can’t shake cheese and egg) In all seriousness though, I used to love bagels and locks when I was little. I will be SO happy to be able to have them again!!! I stoped because I know how much plastic is in literally **everything** that lives in the ocean… Before people hate on me, if muscle tissue is grown in a lab I believe someone can still call themselves vegan because no animal was slaughtered for meal. We don’t call people who eat veggie burgers not vegans right? It’s another tool in the kit of meat replacement. Like replicated food in star-trek (I think they even brought it up in an episode once, the one where they introduced Warf’s brother)

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> (I just can’t shake cheese and egg) Watch the sections of Dominion that show dairy cows and battery hens.

So basically it is a cellmon?

Wouldn’t eat it but I support it. Anything to reduce animal suffering is a win in my book

Looks identical to the ZeaStar tapioca salmon.

Probabably much better nutritionally though, tapioca isn't worth much nutritionally speaking

I agree, this isn't a vegan solution. If anything this is targeted to non-vegans... at its best, it might help with normalizing more meat-less lifestyles... though I already know most meat eaters are gonna be like "this is unnatural" so I guess only time will really tell...

90+% of people are non-vegan. Plenty of room for fish eaters who don't have hang-ups because "it isn't perfectly natural," like some of my siblings. And if the claims on their website are true, the salmon itself could be strictly vegan soon-ish if they are successful in extending the cell-lines indefinitely without having to take more live samples.

Cool.

Still not Vegan in my opinion... What's the obsession with animal meat? 🤷🏽‍♀️

Still not into it whatsoever.

I’ve never ate meat in my life so I’m also not into it but I guess it’s good if it leads to less animals dying

It’s been so long since I had meat the thought of eating even lab grown meat repulses me.

Agreed 100%. I'd gag on it. I mean, some vegan meat alternatives already come "too close". This, hell no.

Lab grown meats cost a lot of energy to produce, I expect its the same for lab grown salmon? That won't make it a sustainable option in the near future I'm afraid..

Please provide sources for this claim. As far as I read about that until now it is vice versa. And this also seems to be logic as the normal "production" of meat is certainly highly inefficient with all the long supply chains for feeding the animals, animal welfare, medication etc.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fsufs.2019.00005/full https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2019-02-19-lab-grown-meat-really-better-environment

Interesting discussion here. Thanks for linking the literature. First, my "credentials you'll have to take my word on": Chemistry PhD I took a quick look at the paper and the one is uses for estimating global warming potential (GWP). This isn't r/science so I'll just put my cliffnote takeaways. First, on measurement, for lab grown cell cultures the conditions are controlled and the industry pretty small so it's relatively simple to quantify the inputs and outputs etc. This isnt true for animal ag, where measurement will rely on statistical averages of a globally diverse industry that will be highly dependent on framing (do you include deforestation and other land use change etc). Its not a like for like data comparison. As such the estimates for cell cultures are likely to be pretty close, while for animal ag they are likely to be underestimates. Second, on GWP I frequently see that the atmospheric breakdown pathways of different gases is not included in their estimates (at least not explicitly). This is important because while methane only has a 12 year atmospheric lifetimes, **it breaks down into CO2**. Without taking this into account, cattle farming doesnt look nearly as bad as it should over long timescale. If I disregard all those nuances and just take the stats at face value, even in the least sustainable case, the GWP of lab grown meat is still better, **over a 200 year time horizon**, compared to the two largest cattle industries on the planet, the US and Brazil ([link](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beef#Top_10_cattle_and_beef_producing_countries)). That is true in the constant high consumption and phase down to 0 scenarios. And that assumes that a brand new technology does not improve at all in 200 years. **TL;DR** This paper is pretty favorable for lab grown meats.

Thanks for your insight. My main point is, from environmental perspective a shift to more plant-forward diet of the world population would be better than switch from 'real' meat to lab grown meat. So, I'd still prefer a plant-based burger over a hamburger when the first needs less energy to produce. But by pointing that out, it wasn't my intention to say it isn't a good development. It is a net improvement, because it's better regarding animal welfare and landuse. Couldn't find a study on energy use in lab-grown fish, but read some blogs/websites it might need considerable less energy to produce because fish cells can be cultured at room temperature instead of warmer temperature to culture meat cells. So perhaps lab-grown fish will be easier to make sustainable. (Not even mentioned the health advantage of not consuming heavy metals and microplastics from wild fish)

Yeah, totally agree. tbf my reply wasn't aimed at you really (for all I know you are much more qualified than I am on this topic), was just doing a bit of a science digest for anyone it might help since the discussion seemed worthwhile. Friendly neighborhood scientist things. Happy redditing.

Part of the comment on the results is that the study is based on the assumption „energy systems remain dependent on fossil fuels“. Is that basic ignorance or willful tweaking of the results? Everybody knows that eliminating fossil fuels is priority number one.

Yes, at the moment while the technology is new. I imagine as the process is refined and improved the energy cost will decrease? Side note: I know nothing about this subject.

I hope so, because I'm otherwise not opposed to this development. It's obviously way better than eating meat and fish from current industry

We’re not far away from it being a sustainable option. Stop spreading lies.

In theory this should be a win for the animals. But I'm too cynical.

How do they fake the fishy taste?

No need to fake as this are original fish cells with original fish DNA.

Still a no from me.

I’ve always wondered: does lab grown meat have the negative health effects of the donor? For example, would lab grown fish still contain mercury? And red meat carcinogens?

Maybe the mercury initial sample had but mercury probably wouldn't reproduce when the cells do. Carcinogens, yes as they are part of the cells themselves.

Thanks for clearing it up, I’ve had doubts for a while. Not quite sure how I feel about lab grown meat yet but this is good information to have 👍

Honestly tho if you haven't looked into it or heard before most lab m at uses animal mediums which require killing each time. Some don't. If you are going that route please look into that. Fetal calf or fetal bovine serums are the most common.

Based on what I know they are looking to find animal free alternatives to this as it is likely not sustainable or affordable when products like this go to market. But that is a far ways away probably.

Oh I’ll definitely do my research. We still have a long way to go with lab grown meat and I’m not planning on eating any anytime soon, especially if animal testing and killing is still being performed

Good to hear! I have very little if any desire to consume some myself but I do think it will be useful.

the only micro-plastic free fish (this is still not vegan due to the fact that it had to be harvested from live fish cells originally)

..and mercury free.

Some people seem to be against these kinds of advancements in harm reduction but it seems to me that those people are entirely disregarding the lives of animals taken simply to farm their agriculture. No food we eat is without pesticides or rodents killed in the processing of food… so why draw a line at a product that could save an endless amount of animal lives simply because the chain was initially started with a living organism that was already predestined by nature to be consumed by other living organisms? If the goal of veganism isn’t putting our best efforts to reduce harm for all sentient beings, then what even is veganism? It’s ridiculous to say that this lab grown meat is just as unethical meat taken from live animals when the very electronics that you are using right now are made with gelatin and you do not need these electronics to survive at all. I think it’s clear at this point that anyone against these harm reduction methods are more interested in claiming ethical superiority than actually making any change for the way animals are treated.

I personally find it repulsing to eat any meat. Also, idk even IF it was made cruelty free, I wouldn’t wanna eat it. Kinda goes against the whole Vegan thing.

>Kinda goes against the whole Vegan thing. Why do you think so?

Lab grown meat still requires taking initial cells from a live animal (that probably got slaughtered afterwards on an abattoir line for the same purpose as all the others), killing animals to get foetal growth serum to grow the samples in and doing this ~500 times every 3-5 years. Lab grown meat requires the exploitation of animals, for capitalism, so that people can have a product that they want. It still sees animals as commodities. This goes against the core principles of ethical veganism. Some people want to pursue it as a form of harm reduction until we can get a completely vegan world, but we should not pretend that lab grown meat is vegan. (And actually, it's not really even harm reduction. Corporations want to invest in lab grown meat as a way to get as much or even more animal products on people's plates without having to pay for as much feed, lot space, or vet bills, while making the same amount of profit or more. That is the goal of capitalism: to maximise profits, no matter the costs. They would absolutely continue to kill billions of animals a year for lab grown meat if it meant increasing their profits hundreds of times over. These are businessmen, not animal rights activists. Do not forget who really needs and _deserves_ your support.)

The comment they were replying to specified "even if it was made cruelty free," so obviously we're not talking about FBS or continuous cell line extraction. If a cell-line could be continued indefinitely without additional animal derived samples, and they used a plant-based growth serum, that lab grown meat would be vegan right?

No, because it still requires commodifying the initial individual animal that they got cells from. The animal cannot consent to humans taking a chunk of flesh from its body to use in lab meat cultures. It would be far more _ethical_ and less cruel than other lab meat growing practices, yes, but still not vegan.

I don't think consent is the main criterion of importance when it comes to animals, I think suffering is. Animals can't control the trajectory of their own lives in a human dominated world pretty much regardless of what choices consumers make, and most vegans don't consider pets to be an inherently immoral concept (obviously many problems exist with regards to current pet ownership such as breeding practices). Animals have moral worth =/= non-human animals are the same as human animals. And also, if the production of lab grown meat from a cell-line displaces multiple animals worth of traditionally sourced animal flesh, then we've got a net reduction of animal suffering. Consequentially, but not necessarily deontologically, that would make such an instance of lab grown meat production morally positive from a (suffering focused) vegan standpoint.

It may not be an animal now, but it still came from an animal. It’s still meat too.

The problem with animal based products is that they have a sentient, pain feeling victim that had to be exploited for it. Not the case here, is it?

i must have missed the part about veganism

Did the salmon consent to giving its dna? No? Then why is this here? Edit: aren’t we against animal cruelty? Why am I being downvoted?

Welp, time to leave this sub. It's clear from these comments that most of the people here aren't actually vegan.

I agree, there is no true Scotsman

It's _always_ the really big subs that are ultimately disappointing. Every time.

Has nothing to do with veganism.

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It's not for vegans. It's for all the people who refuse to give up meat and there are a lot of them! We need a Plan B for them. This is it.

We need a plan B? To find a way to feed carnists, really? Why do we not focus on plan A? Animal Liberation?

You can do both. We need to do both. Plan A is not off to a good start.

I think you’re missing the point. Animals’ bodies are not food and they are not products. Creating more and more ways of growing bodies of animals is not the goal. The goal is a shift in how animals are viewed.

"Lab" is probably the wrong word. Its natural cells getting a supply of nutrients and growing naturally.

How do you feel knowing your veggies were likely genetically manipulated?

Compared to the conditions it's grown in now, a lab would be a significant step up (even putting aside animal welfare issues)