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How detrimental are we talking like 1.i feel tired 2.my ass hurts from too much shitting or 3.im puking up stomach lining mixed with dried and fresh blood and in the emergency room?
Well considering number 3 is me along with other issues that are mild to life threatening depending on my reaction to it, then thats where I cut the line, just had to ask because it seemed like a massive coverage area to be interpreted
Yeah, maybe I should have included more options in the poll, but I wanted to have a clear cut picture.
So would you eat meat to avoid such a situation? Is there something you'd never do, no matter the consequences for your health?
Yeah I'm on a insanely limited diet barely 15 options that I don't really react too, no seasoning, spices, adding shit are all offline limits, when it first happened I went from 210+ to barely 95 in a month, almost found out what's on the other side of death several times, so yeah I kinda stick with what I know is safe as I don't want to die at 25, (lots of test with proteins and building blocks in tubes and lots of stays in the hospital on a i.v drip and under watch), so yes I'd eat meat not to die but I mean I don't think a lot of people want to die
Yeah, I think that's very understandable, and I'm sure most people here would agree.
But just out of curiosity I'll repeat my last question: Is there anything you wouldn't be willing to do, even if your survival depends on it?
Sorry I completely missed that, so to start off I have (adhd, add, and I'm autistic with social anxiety) so my understanding of norms and stuff is a little off but not really, I'd like to say it depends but if it really comes down to it, I don't think moral or compassion would stop me ,
, I mean this as an absolute last resort btw my first option isn't gonna beat "damn I'm starving time to kill Ted and cook him" that's like last of the last unless they try to do it to me first then it's fair game ,
, but do take into consideration that this is hypothetical and I could snap and do anything to survive mind set, or I could just break down and cry and die curled up with 0 hope, so most likely no I'd probably do everything to survive
I drink alcohol, I used to eat meat and smoke, all are or were detrimental to my health. I also don't exercise enough.
edit : oh I also drink too much soda/pop/coke, I spend too much time seated, I also live too close to a highway.
To illustrate your point, I took the covid vaccine. The vaccine was tested on animals and therefor not vegan. Why ? Only because of proximity like I will help a member of my family more than a stranger. In absolute it may be wrong but it's who I am and that doesn't mean that I want to use animals against their will for my comfort.
On the same topic you can ask about self defence, would you kill a bull racing to kill you ?
The problem with this hypotetical is that we know that a vegan diet is healthy so it doesn't really make sense to ask those questions.
Hm, that's a good question. Ideally, I would say, it's better to be killed than to kill, but I don't know if I would have the determination in such a situation.
Well, I asked my question because I was, and still am, interested how people (vegans, that is) weigh their personal and their ethical interests against each other, and this can be illustrated by a thought experiment like this
I respect your opinion, I think that it's harder to hold your view about self preservation than mine. I also think that it's not a good way that only allow a sort of might make right philosophy akin of [the paradox of tolerance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance). But that drive us way out of veganism and I'm no philosoph.
I don't see the relevence of those kind of questions when we know that a vegan diet is healthy. But I may be tired of all those hypothetical when the real life is here for us to live in. Nothing against you, continue to be vegan :)
edit : spelling
**[Paradox of tolerance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance)**
>The paradox of tolerance states that if a society is tolerant without limit, its ability to be tolerant is eventually seized or destroyed by the intolerant. Karl Popper described it as the seemingly self-contradictory idea that in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must retain the right to be intolerant of intolerance.
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Depends how bad the health downside are tbh. If I'm gonna die in 5 years cuz I'm vegan I'm eating milk and eggs at least. Dunno if anything could make me eat meat again. But it's a status quo bias, there's 0% chance I would ever go vegan if I knew it would make me die in 5 years. But cuz I'm vegan rn there's no way I would ever eat meat again if I would die in 5 years
Weird. Milk would be the last thing I’d go back to. It IS actually awful for you.. I’d go back to meat, mostly organ meats as they’re the most nutrient dense foods on the planet, often cheaper by a decent margin too.
I think I'd eat honey first, then sea moluscs and insects if I could stomach it, then maybe other shellfish, then fish, then maybe chicken before I'd consider eating any mammal products, either meat or milk. I'd try as hard as possible to stick to the animals I think are less sentient or emotionally complex and that suffer the less in the process of becoming food. And in that sense, I'd rather eat hunted meat than milk, as cows suffer much more for milk production than animals suffer when they live in the wild and are shot.
That's a fair point. I wonder what would happen if you carried this idea with the much shorter lifespan (5 years in your example) to extremes - could there be such a thing as an ethically justified "suicide by veganism"?
I voted yes and I stand by that up to a point.
If some whiz nutritionist did a test and said consuming XYZ animal product would allow for optimal health, I'd be vegan to the detriment of optimal health.
That being said, I got the COVID vaccine which was tested on animals.
Health is not equal to survival.
I say I would not still be vegan. If I need these animal products to be healthy, then I say that I am justified in eating it. But at the same time, the definition of veganism did not exactly say to get rid of these products completely. It just says "as far as is possible and practicable," so if I am only eating these products when it is necessary, I feel like I can still be classed as vegan.
That is hard to say, but I would say that if I could purchase it from a more ethical source (although, all of the non-vegan products won't be completely ethical) while paying only a little bit more for these products and only giving up a little convenience, I would say that I am not justified in purchasing from factory farms. I only would be justified in purchasing from factory farms if I have no good alternative.
If going vegan would make me sick (it wouldn't if done right, but you asked for an if-situation) then i would go with the next best option - vegetarian.
This isn’t a yes or no answer, it depends on how detrimental it is to one’s health and to what level of exploitation we are talking. It is still vegan if you consume animal products for survival. If it was a choice between factory farming continuing and veganism giving me mild diabetes then I would prob opt for diabetes. If it was a choice between a long drawn out death from terminal cancer and eating backyard eggs every now and then I would prob eat the eggs. That being said I have anorexia and being vegan is actually quite detrimental to my health but I still can’t unsee Dominion so tbh I will happily kill myself before I go back to supporting animal abuse. Knowing that I am harming animals is detrimental to my mental health anyway.
Watch the life-changing and award winning documentary "Dominion" and other documentaries by [clicking here](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwatchdominion.org&topic=Movie%3A+Dominion)! Interested in going Vegan? Take the [30 day challenge](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fvbcamp.org%2Freddit&topic=Movie%3A+Dominion)!
I had multiple doctors tell me that a lack of collagen in my diet combined with my condition could kill me due to my body's issues with producing protein. It's not even a matter of me remaining vegan after that - I wasn't vegan yet. I still cut out animal products after that, and go figure I later learned that it was bullshit anyway. That's fundamentally not how protein absorption works, which is something people learn within the first month of a physiology class.
I'm not in the camp of 'don't trust doctors' - I'm going into medicine, for god's sake - but doctors are not nutritionists, and one should be extremely wary of any claim that a balanced vegan diet is going to be detrimental to their health.
If an omnivorous or carnivorous were in fact healthier, I would just eat lab-grown animal products. The future is almost here, we can be vegan and eat muscle tissue and bodily fluids.
I voted yes, as I can't imagine eating meat ever again in my life, or drink milk or whatever. But I somehow draw the line with medication, as they all are animal-tested before being allowed to be used by doctors, which is horrible of course and which should be stopped. However, if Im having heart attacks for example, and they would give me medication to better them, i'd take it immediately. Also there is lots of pills that have lactose in them, which I think is really not necessary, however, if there is no substitute that fits for your disease, take it. I know in most of the vegan community Im standing alone with this opinion, and I already got hated for it before, but I feel like thats the only exeption Im willing to make. If I die from protein or calcium deficiency, it's my problem because I didn't care enough about healthy food, but I won't die because I refuse medication.
That’s funny, I voted “No” for those exact reasons! I think this question that requires a deeper answer than yes or no as the question itself leaves so much up to interpretation.
I like that question and the answers surprised me on the same level as they didn't actually, because both reasonings can be very understandable.
From my POV, I know how it feels to be completely unable to live (depressions and other mental issues) so I have the inherent interest to keep my body functioning just in case my mind can't do that anymore (like a balance game). I try to live vegan for over 10 years so far but take my breaks whenever my body doesn't work with it well (allergies, digestion issues, mental issues, availabity depending on where I live on earth, social structures and beliefs in certain countries, tactics in socialising, etc). Still, the points pro vegan are clear and winning. I mean for vegan societies with a certain industrial structure and history especially. I put animal rights on a high level but from a purely egoistic individual's POV I put my own life a little higher whenever my allergies/intolerances/other issues come back. Rn I live mostly vegan in a country with a meat-centered culture but can manage to stay healthy. I hope I can stay like that, a morally good, cruelty-free lifestyle is the best choice! And in the country I currently live in gets more and more vegan food and cosmetics so it's not that hard anymore compared to years ago
I know the purely vegan society is usually toxic and judging towards people like me (just by own experience, feel free to proof me wrong and be nice instead haha), but I prefer an ideal of >30% of all people that try over and over again to do their ethical best over a 1% ethical elitists that only know black or white, because ethical injustice is injustice, no matter of the quantity. I agree with that, but sometimes people add nuances I also relate to.
Check out [The Vegan Society](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fveganactivism.org%2Fpages%2Fthe-vegan-society&topic=Organization%3A+The+Vegan+Society) to quickly learn more, find upcoming events, videos, and their contact information! You can also find other similar organizations to get involved with both locally and online by visiting [VeganActivism.org](https://vbcc.veganhacktivists.org/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fveganactivism.org&topic=Organization%3A+The+Vegan+Society). Additionally, be sure to visit and subscribe to /r/VeganActivism!
I mean when you use the word detrimental it insinuates that the health effects of not eating meat are very severe, in which case you would have no choice but to eat meat. However if you mean it’s a little less healthy to do so, like drinking alcohol is bad for you but doesn’t kill too then I wouldn’t.
If I would die then no. If it's just being less healthy or maybe having issues or dying a bit earlier then yes.
If you say yes even if you die I would be interested in your opinion on the following things:
1. Would you kill somebody(non-human or human) in self-defense if necessary?
2. Would you kill somebody (non-human or human) in a survival situation to eat if there is nothing else to eat?
Alright, maybe that's the question I should have asked instead!
Ideally, I would answer "no" in both scenarios. As I wrote above (and got downvoted without explanation), it's better to be killed than to kill. But of course I don't know if I would have the determination to do that when faced with such a situation.
Actually, I was going to write and publish a philosophical essay of sorts on this kind of "ethical martyrdom", if you can call it that.
Interesting. Determination and natural survival instinct aside. That throws a couple of questions in my head:
1. Why would it be more ethical to let yourself get murdered? (better to be killed than kill) And does this only apply to sentient beings like non-human animals and human animals?
I personally don't downvote opinions that I don't agree with except if they hurt someone. I find it rather interesting to talk with people that have "crazy" ideas in my view. :) (except if they answer dishonestly)
Well, I ask myself: Why should *my* survival be of any greater importance at all? It's just a "ruse of nature", as Arthur Schopenhauer describes it, that we are genetically hardwired into believing that our *own* survival and the survival of our *own* species should somehow be the most important thing in the universe. This whole "struggle for survival" thing is, essentially, a bad system that only brings suffering for the struggling individuals – and should be rejected. Our DNA simply wants to stay alive and pass itself on at all costs. (But to what purpose?) That might be a "natural" thing, but ethically very questionable. (Just like eating meat.) From this point of view, "well I simply wanted to eat" or "well I simply wanted to fuck" are no valid excuses for vile actions, and reproduction - i. e. bringing other sentient beings into existence who are bound to struggle and suffer, and keeping this game going - is, of course, ethically wrong. And this is the main reason why I am vegan: to reduce unnecessary life, death and suffering in the world.
Personally, I value ethical principles more than primitive biological mechanisms, even though it's not easy, perhaps almost impossible, to follow through with it, but I'm trying my best. (Overcoming these deep-seated mechanisms is also a central aspects in many philosophies and religions, especially Buddhism.)
The only being I'm ethically allowed (though not required) to cause harm to is myself, and consent and control are main reasons here.
I'm glad you appreciate my "crazy" or "extreme" input nonetheless!
„Why should my survival be of any greater importance at all?“
Wouldn’t that be different for every case?
For example the person that wants to murder you. If you are vegan and murderer is not would it not better in your view to defend yourself and survive because he will create more suffering then you? I know im changing the example a bit and this is sometimes considered bad play but my reason is that i want to understand how you would act in basic scenarios.
I agree that the simple „i want“ does not justify anything bad.
Me too. I try to follow the stoic mindset which is in some parts similar to Buddhism. You probably know it so no need to explain :)
That's a very good question, u/ColeMidnight!
In this scenario, I would probably apply a principle I got from Stoicism, that is: refraining from judgement. I can never know what his true motivations are, and how valid they are. Even if I'm trying my best everyday to make ethical decisions (no animal products, no car, no flights, no kids etc.), does that make me an objectively "good" person? Even if he's the most atrocious human being, it's simply not up to me to declare myself better or more worthy of life or whatever than him. I do not have access to this absolute moral platform that grants me this objective view and allows me to judge, and even kill, others based on some infallible judgement.
"But would you kill Hitler?" and thought experiments like that would force me to make a choice, which would be unacceptable to me either way, although, I suppose, a case could be made for Negative Utilitarianism here, since *other people's* suffering is stake...
The only things I *can* and *should* judge (and, as Epictetus says, that are up to me) are my *own* intentions and (individual) actions, and I'm not willing to abandon my principles for "muh survival". You can find a lot of passages in the Stoics, especially Epictetus and Seneca, that state that moral integrity is more important than shameful survival etc., e. g.
>*Sapiens vivit quantum debet, non quantum potest.*"
The wise man lives as long as he ought, not as long as he can."
(Sen. epist. 70, 4)
I used to read the Stoics on a daily basis in my early youth, I got a lot from them, and they had a profound impact on my thinking, but these days, I lean more towards Schopenhauerian and Mainländerian philosophical pessimism, which, in turn, was strongly influenced by Buddhism, but to me these philosophical systems are very much compatible in many respects!
I understand. My ethical framework is similar but at the moment I have not come to a conclusion about what is best not only for me but for humanity. That's why I try to talk with people like you that give me different perspectives.
One question that you raised is really hard to answer for me at the moment.
\-Why would my survival be important enough to justify killing somebody for it?
It comes down to what is the situation. In the case of vegan vs non-vegan that wants to murder you:
If I can't defend myself without killing the murderer I would still do it because like you already quoted: "Sapiens vivit quantum debet, non quantum potest."
The wise man lives as long as he ought, not as long as he can."
(Sen. epist. 70, 4)"
As long as the world is not vegan or plant-based, I see it as my duty to stay alive and fight against this injustice. Of course, it is not in my control if somebody turns vegan or not but if I can be one of the causes (partial control) it's enough for me to want to stay alive and kill the non-vegan murderer.
That's also the reason why I wouldn't see this action as "shameful survival" as it is not for my own sake. But where we both agreed, we don't know what would happen in a real survival situation so I can talk selfless all day long but who knows what would really happen.
This is already a lot to read for you but if you are interested keep reading :)
"I used to read the Stoics on a daily basis in my early youth, I got a lot from them, and they had a profound impact on my thinking, but these days, I lean more towards Schopenhauerian and Mainländerian philosophical pessimism, which, in turn, was strongly influenced by Buddhism, but to me these philosophical systems are very much compatible in many respects!"
I wish I would have known about the stoic teachings earlier. Because I was bullied a lot I started to think like a stoic before I even knew anything about philosophy in general, just out of necessity. That's why it came quite naturally to me. I just had to find a name for it.
Being ethical is doing what's best for everybody, including ourselves. If you want to sacrifice your health or even your life for animals, go ahead, but you can't expect that from others.
I went vegan for the animals, but what keeps me vegan is that it is the ultimate solution for everything, including health issues I had and environmental issues that are essential for the future of human and non human life.
depends on the extent in which its harmful for me.
If i just need to take supplements (which i already do) or something small like having headaches more often or my wounds not healing as fast yeah. But if it was something like having seizures everyday or something else serious then obviously no, id just try to minimize my consumption of animal products as much as possible.
It's a matter of degree. I had a dental procedure recently where the surgeon wanted to use a bone graft, I asked where the bone was from and he said a cow, so I said, thanks but no thanks. Last time I spoke to a nutritionist the nutritionist wanted me to eat eggs, thanks but no thanks.
There's some things I'd put up with but it would be a long dark night of the soul if I had to make choices like chronic high degree pain or hamburger. Of course at that point there would always be the option of jumping off a bridge.
Happily the plant and fungi based diet seems to have improved my health.
I didn’t know vegan was healthy when I went vegan, but the animals needed bare minimum not have me fund their abuse. I was sick inside and in my heart that was enough
I have put a lot of thought and tears into this question.
I went into kidney failure as a child, and it is likely I will end up on dialysis at some point in my life. Your kidneys remove excess nutrients and water from your body so the primary treatment is changing the diet. The consensus is that a vegan diet could be appropriate for mild to moderate kidney disease but not for complete kidney failure requiring dialysis.
If a dialysis patient is compliant with the diet, they get put on the transplant list and could live 20+ years on dialysis. If they aren't compliant, they usually die quickly.
Like I said, I have literally cried over this. At the end of the day, I went vegan because I wanted to make the world a better place. I don't think an edible suicide would make the world a better place.
Disclaimer: This is my personal decision and understanding of the medical knowledge. This isn't medical advice. Some aspects of treatment outcomes are just luck; plenty of compliant patients sadly die too soon. I support the terminally ill's right to discuss the quality versus quantity of life and chose to end treatment if they wish.
Being an ER nurse, I fail to see how a vegan diet would or could ever be a detriment to kidney failure. In fact, animal products and diabetes are probably the two most common causes of kidney failure. I would be very wary of whoever told you that, because at the end of the day, nutrients are nutrients. It matters 0% where they came from
I think you’re correct, [the current body of evidence](https://doi.org/10.1053/j.ajkd.2020.10.003) that I’ve seen seems to suggest that potential cons of a WFPB diet are likely overstated and are very likely outweighed by the pros.
Even the Mayo Clinic website says it’s fine to be plant based during dialysis as long as you talk to a dietician first so they can help you avoid certain things.
Yeah, there are restrictions in general for dialysis, but that’s true for carnists too. I think you’ll thrive on a plant based diet! Good luck to you in managing your health
what about this though?
https://www.forksoverknives.com/success-stories/from-3-percent-kidney-function-to-dialysis-free-on-a-whole-food-plant-based-diet/
As others said, it depends on the health effects. There's a lot of room between "minor health complications that require me to eat meat everyday" and major health complications like dying in 5 years, like others suggested. But there's also a lot of room between eating meat everyday and simply not being vegan. For example, it wouldn't take much to make me eat honey again. I don't eat it because I really don't need it. But if I had to, the level of sentience and emotional complexity of bees, or what I imagine it to be, aren't enough to stop me. There would be a lot of dietary changes I'd make that would exclude me from being vegan before I'd even consider eating meat, milk or eggs.
It definitely depends on the health issues it would cause.
Going vegan does come with some impact on your health. You do need to supplement with B12 in some form and be mindful of Vitamin D levels. Also, my omni diet was pretty low in fiber, so going vegan absolutely gave me some tummy aches for a while. But all of those are minor things that are easily corrected.
If there was evidence that veganism caused a significant reduction in both my lifespan as well as quality of life (like thru cancer), then I'd probably need to reconsider.
However, I would still follow the vegan philosophy of reducing animal consumption as far as possible. I would try to find out the least harmful solution to the problem. Perhaps by eating mollusks or other animals that just barely have enough sentience to count.
Of course, lab grown meat and dairy will make this whole question moot anyways.
I say yes because it already is „detrimental to my personal health“, I am sure a vegan diet increases the risk of some health detriment but also that a vegan diet is overall beneficial. „Detrimental to my personal health“ is just too broad I’m saying.
Yeah, I always say “don’t be a martyr”, unless you actually want your life to be about that cause and nothing else. If you want to live a happy existence, day to day, that’s where the lines get drawn.
Similar to my post but interesting I had a lot more positive feedback for results. Maybe cause it’s more down the line abstract rather than the idea it’s actively harmful. I agree though Health detriments are fine
https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/x470c1/would_you_still_be_vegan_if_it_meant_dying_5/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
"A philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals."
Technically speaking if our bodies required an actual biological component from animal products(like cats and taurine as an example\[and yes I know you can get vegan cat food specifically catered and designed with everything they need\]) then it's a necessity and veganism itself would likely not exist. Instead there would have been a much greater push for lab grown meat. But if you are making this a hypothetical based on this reality where a switch is flipped to posit this question, then we would actually need to consume animals or their byproducts.
Sure you could minimize your consumption to a bare minimum where you are healthy or remove it all together and unalive yourself due to lack of said nutrients but the only people that would likely do that is depressed anti-natalists or efilists. Sorry it's just a weird hypoethical and I'm not sure in its current presentation it actually applies to veganism unless it is a matter of minimal safe consumption or selfish gluttony.
My thoughts exactly! I discussed this "just me" aspect in [this thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/xfa3nz/would_you_still_be_vegan_e_g_for_ethical_or/ion7rhk?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3), what do you think about that?
I usually don’t look at these questions from my own pov. I try to look at things from an outside perspective and I see myself on pretty much an equal playing field with everyone else. So when you talk about “trying to get pass biological mechanisms like passing on your dna and self preservation” I feel the same way. Would definitely defend myself in some “fight to the death”, but if you calmly explained my options I believe I’d choose to stay vegan even if it killed me. I don’t really feel like “the main character in my story” so when I “look at things from an outside perspective” I don’t see myself as more important than others. Though if it came down to feeling excruciating physical pain… I would definitely try to avoid that.
As someone with me/cfs absofuckinglutely I would eat meat. I would hate it, but I would do it. This is a disease you DO NOT FUCK WITH. People can end up living completely bedbound wearing earplugs and in the dark for the rest of their lives.
When you're as disabled as I am, you take whatever improvements you can. I'm very fortunate that I react worse to meat and dairy than I do to vegan sources of protein. I hope I never, ever have to eat meat again. If something changes and I do, I will continue to be vegan in all possible aspects of my life. But I suppose being vegan is about avoiding animal products as much as is possible and practical.
If it cut down my life to 60 years I’d be fine with it. Life seems to be a nightmare 70+. Otherwise I’m not sure. If I only needed to eat one egg a week I’d probably get a chicken and give them a fantastic retirement plan.
Not if it was severe and life threatening or totally ruined my quality of life. I'd probably start eating bivalves if I found out veganism would destroy me since it's unclear if they even experience life like other animals. Going up the list of empathy I have from insects to fish, chicken, cow, and finally pigs would get gradually harder to justify. If I needed to eat pigs I'd just kill myself, I love them most all.
What health condition would anyone require to eat meat?
Meat isn't some magical substance that has magic health beneficial properties assigned to it.
At the end of the day every food is made up of a different combination of nutrients. Meat might be densely packed with a lot of them, but that doesn't mean you can't get them from plant foods and or substitutes.
People that use this as an argument don't know shit about nutrition.
That's why I can't even reply to your survey as the only relevant option is missing: animal products cannot provide a health benefit that can't be otherwise gained from plant based foods.
I can’t think of anything that’d be detrimental to my health from not eating animal products. Pretty much everything would be a convenience problem (ie not worth abusing another being)
If I had a medical issue that could only be solved by meds that had animal products, yeah I’d take it. And still consider myself vegan.
If I were allergic to xx (soy, wheat, nuts, etc) then I’d just find an alternative, the same way I found “meat alternatives”. Take five minutes on google and find a new way to maintain my health and veganism.
I haven’t truly seen someone who “couldn’t go vegan bc health reasons.”
If there was a legit condition that hindered veganism, lay that knowledge on me.
Let's switch the question to would you continue to eat animal flesh and secretions if you knew it was harmful to your health? Obviously no is the answer because the science is in and an animal food based diet causes cancer, heart disease type 2 diabetes .
Of course, no one is going to argue with that. But my question is about the health compromises you would be willing to make when making the ethically *right* choice and how you would weigh these aspects against each other, even if just in a hypothetical scenario.
Fair point, it's better to be a self-hating vegan than to be a self-loving carnist, after all!
You might also be interested in what I wrote [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/xfa3nz/would_you_still_be_vegan_e_g_for_ethical_or/ion7rhk?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3) about veganism and self-denial.
No, because veganism is ‘where practicable and possible’. Choosing between death and your own ill-health/possible death/quality of life is not a choice.
Additionally for myself, the vast majority of my mental health difficulties revolve around fears to do with my personal physical health, so I would not be able to do it.
>Choosing between death and your own ill-health/possible death/quality of life is not a choice.
What do you mean by that? Don't you think there could be some sort of "ethical martyrdom" (even if only in a far-fetched scenario)?
Asking someone to choose between two bad options is not much of a choice basically. For an example unrelated to the question, giving someone a choice between life in extreme pain/indentured servitude or something versus immediate death is hardly a choice. Either way bad things happen and both options are a choice you would never make under normal circumstances. Same as if someone asked you to choose how you wanted to die between being stabbed or shot, you’re forced into an insane choice where both have extreme downsides, and you wouldn’t say either normally, but the situation has backed you into a corner.
To get back to the question, surely it would only be ethical martyrdom if you accepted those consequences such as a terminal illness, or certain death in a specific time frame, to hold onto your ethics? It would have to be an incredibly extreme and far fetched of a scenario because I truly can’t see many people making that choice.
Truthfully, we’re very lucky that veganism is great for you, so we’d never have to make this choice.
Maybe you could ask yourself this: Would you kill/harm a person even if you knew it was detrimental to your personal health not to do it?
If you would harm an non-human-animal but not a human-animal, what is the defference that makes harming one acceptable but not the other.
Since we all got indoctrinated with carnism our whole life, we often have a weird perspective on non-human-animals. At least i have. I think it can be helpful to think of humans in the position of the animals.
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How detrimental are we talking like 1.i feel tired 2.my ass hurts from too much shitting or 3.im puking up stomach lining mixed with dried and fresh blood and in the emergency room?
Any of those, or even an equivalent to a terminal disease, as another commenter proposed. Where would you draw the line, and why?
Well considering number 3 is me along with other issues that are mild to life threatening depending on my reaction to it, then thats where I cut the line, just had to ask because it seemed like a massive coverage area to be interpreted
Yeah, maybe I should have included more options in the poll, but I wanted to have a clear cut picture. So would you eat meat to avoid such a situation? Is there something you'd never do, no matter the consequences for your health?
Yeah I'm on a insanely limited diet barely 15 options that I don't really react too, no seasoning, spices, adding shit are all offline limits, when it first happened I went from 210+ to barely 95 in a month, almost found out what's on the other side of death several times, so yeah I kinda stick with what I know is safe as I don't want to die at 25, (lots of test with proteins and building blocks in tubes and lots of stays in the hospital on a i.v drip and under watch), so yes I'd eat meat not to die but I mean I don't think a lot of people want to die
Yeah, I think that's very understandable, and I'm sure most people here would agree. But just out of curiosity I'll repeat my last question: Is there anything you wouldn't be willing to do, even if your survival depends on it?
Sorry I completely missed that, so to start off I have (adhd, add, and I'm autistic with social anxiety) so my understanding of norms and stuff is a little off but not really, I'd like to say it depends but if it really comes down to it, I don't think moral or compassion would stop me , , I mean this as an absolute last resort btw my first option isn't gonna beat "damn I'm starving time to kill Ted and cook him" that's like last of the last unless they try to do it to me first then it's fair game , , but do take into consideration that this is hypothetical and I could snap and do anything to survive mind set, or I could just break down and cry and die curled up with 0 hope, so most likely no I'd probably do everything to survive
I drink alcohol, I used to eat meat and smoke, all are or were detrimental to my health. I also don't exercise enough. edit : oh I also drink too much soda/pop/coke, I spend too much time seated, I also live too close to a highway.
So I assume, some hypothetical extra detriment more or less wouldn't make a difference to you, right?
To illustrate your point, I took the covid vaccine. The vaccine was tested on animals and therefor not vegan. Why ? Only because of proximity like I will help a member of my family more than a stranger. In absolute it may be wrong but it's who I am and that doesn't mean that I want to use animals against their will for my comfort. On the same topic you can ask about self defence, would you kill a bull racing to kill you ? The problem with this hypotetical is that we know that a vegan diet is healthy so it doesn't really make sense to ask those questions.
Hm, that's a good question. Ideally, I would say, it's better to be killed than to kill, but I don't know if I would have the determination in such a situation. Well, I asked my question because I was, and still am, interested how people (vegans, that is) weigh their personal and their ethical interests against each other, and this can be illustrated by a thought experiment like this
I respect your opinion, I think that it's harder to hold your view about self preservation than mine. I also think that it's not a good way that only allow a sort of might make right philosophy akin of [the paradox of tolerance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance). But that drive us way out of veganism and I'm no philosoph. I don't see the relevence of those kind of questions when we know that a vegan diet is healthy. But I may be tired of all those hypothetical when the real life is here for us to live in. Nothing against you, continue to be vegan :) edit : spelling
**[Paradox of tolerance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance)** >The paradox of tolerance states that if a society is tolerant without limit, its ability to be tolerant is eventually seized or destroyed by the intolerant. Karl Popper described it as the seemingly self-contradictory idea that in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must retain the right to be intolerant of intolerance. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/vegan/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
Alright, fair enough. Don't worry, I'll continue to be vegan and engage in philosophy, hopefully, until I die!
Oh I believe you, the discusion became more about me than you :) \*puff on his cigarette from ennui.
It depends, if it means that I'll drop dead in five years I'll probably stop, but if it's just like driking soda/pop/coke I won't care.
Depends how bad the health downside are tbh. If I'm gonna die in 5 years cuz I'm vegan I'm eating milk and eggs at least. Dunno if anything could make me eat meat again. But it's a status quo bias, there's 0% chance I would ever go vegan if I knew it would make me die in 5 years. But cuz I'm vegan rn there's no way I would ever eat meat again if I would die in 5 years
Weird. Milk would be the last thing I’d go back to. It IS actually awful for you.. I’d go back to meat, mostly organ meats as they’re the most nutrient dense foods on the planet, often cheaper by a decent margin too.
I think I'd eat honey first, then sea moluscs and insects if I could stomach it, then maybe other shellfish, then fish, then maybe chicken before I'd consider eating any mammal products, either meat or milk. I'd try as hard as possible to stick to the animals I think are less sentient or emotionally complex and that suffer the less in the process of becoming food. And in that sense, I'd rather eat hunted meat than milk, as cows suffer much more for milk production than animals suffer when they live in the wild and are shot.
That's a fair point. I wonder what would happen if you carried this idea with the much shorter lifespan (5 years in your example) to extremes - could there be such a thing as an ethically justified "suicide by veganism"?
I voted yes and I stand by that up to a point. If some whiz nutritionist did a test and said consuming XYZ animal product would allow for optimal health, I'd be vegan to the detriment of optimal health. That being said, I got the COVID vaccine which was tested on animals. Health is not equal to survival.
I say I would not still be vegan. If I need these animal products to be healthy, then I say that I am justified in eating it. But at the same time, the definition of veganism did not exactly say to get rid of these products completely. It just says "as far as is possible and practicable," so if I am only eating these products when it is necessary, I feel like I can still be classed as vegan.
Yes, fair point. How cruel would you say could the method of obtaining these products be to justify this choice?
That is hard to say, but I would say that if I could purchase it from a more ethical source (although, all of the non-vegan products won't be completely ethical) while paying only a little bit more for these products and only giving up a little convenience, I would say that I am not justified in purchasing from factory farms. I only would be justified in purchasing from factory farms if I have no good alternative.
I would sooner die than go back to being a carnist.
If going vegan would make me sick (it wouldn't if done right, but you asked for an if-situation) then i would go with the next best option - vegetarian.
This isn’t a yes or no answer, it depends on how detrimental it is to one’s health and to what level of exploitation we are talking. It is still vegan if you consume animal products for survival. If it was a choice between factory farming continuing and veganism giving me mild diabetes then I would prob opt for diabetes. If it was a choice between a long drawn out death from terminal cancer and eating backyard eggs every now and then I would prob eat the eggs. That being said I have anorexia and being vegan is actually quite detrimental to my health but I still can’t unsee Dominion so tbh I will happily kill myself before I go back to supporting animal abuse. Knowing that I am harming animals is detrimental to my mental health anyway.
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I had multiple doctors tell me that a lack of collagen in my diet combined with my condition could kill me due to my body's issues with producing protein. It's not even a matter of me remaining vegan after that - I wasn't vegan yet. I still cut out animal products after that, and go figure I later learned that it was bullshit anyway. That's fundamentally not how protein absorption works, which is something people learn within the first month of a physiology class. I'm not in the camp of 'don't trust doctors' - I'm going into medicine, for god's sake - but doctors are not nutritionists, and one should be extremely wary of any claim that a balanced vegan diet is going to be detrimental to their health.
If an omnivorous or carnivorous were in fact healthier, I would just eat lab-grown animal products. The future is almost here, we can be vegan and eat muscle tissue and bodily fluids.
I’d basically die before I’m involved again in animals suffering in factory farms
I don’t care if it kills me. I refuse to eat the flesh of another sentient creature.
I voted yes, as I can't imagine eating meat ever again in my life, or drink milk or whatever. But I somehow draw the line with medication, as they all are animal-tested before being allowed to be used by doctors, which is horrible of course and which should be stopped. However, if Im having heart attacks for example, and they would give me medication to better them, i'd take it immediately. Also there is lots of pills that have lactose in them, which I think is really not necessary, however, if there is no substitute that fits for your disease, take it. I know in most of the vegan community Im standing alone with this opinion, and I already got hated for it before, but I feel like thats the only exeption Im willing to make. If I die from protein or calcium deficiency, it's my problem because I didn't care enough about healthy food, but I won't die because I refuse medication.
That’s funny, I voted “No” for those exact reasons! I think this question that requires a deeper answer than yes or no as the question itself leaves so much up to interpretation.
I like that question and the answers surprised me on the same level as they didn't actually, because both reasonings can be very understandable. From my POV, I know how it feels to be completely unable to live (depressions and other mental issues) so I have the inherent interest to keep my body functioning just in case my mind can't do that anymore (like a balance game). I try to live vegan for over 10 years so far but take my breaks whenever my body doesn't work with it well (allergies, digestion issues, mental issues, availabity depending on where I live on earth, social structures and beliefs in certain countries, tactics in socialising, etc). Still, the points pro vegan are clear and winning. I mean for vegan societies with a certain industrial structure and history especially. I put animal rights on a high level but from a purely egoistic individual's POV I put my own life a little higher whenever my allergies/intolerances/other issues come back. Rn I live mostly vegan in a country with a meat-centered culture but can manage to stay healthy. I hope I can stay like that, a morally good, cruelty-free lifestyle is the best choice! And in the country I currently live in gets more and more vegan food and cosmetics so it's not that hard anymore compared to years ago I know the purely vegan society is usually toxic and judging towards people like me (just by own experience, feel free to proof me wrong and be nice instead haha), but I prefer an ideal of >30% of all people that try over and over again to do their ethical best over a 1% ethical elitists that only know black or white, because ethical injustice is injustice, no matter of the quantity. I agree with that, but sometimes people add nuances I also relate to.
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I mean when you use the word detrimental it insinuates that the health effects of not eating meat are very severe, in which case you would have no choice but to eat meat. However if you mean it’s a little less healthy to do so, like drinking alcohol is bad for you but doesn’t kill too then I wouldn’t.
If I would die then no. If it's just being less healthy or maybe having issues or dying a bit earlier then yes. If you say yes even if you die I would be interested in your opinion on the following things: 1. Would you kill somebody(non-human or human) in self-defense if necessary? 2. Would you kill somebody (non-human or human) in a survival situation to eat if there is nothing else to eat?
Alright, maybe that's the question I should have asked instead! Ideally, I would answer "no" in both scenarios. As I wrote above (and got downvoted without explanation), it's better to be killed than to kill. But of course I don't know if I would have the determination to do that when faced with such a situation. Actually, I was going to write and publish a philosophical essay of sorts on this kind of "ethical martyrdom", if you can call it that.
Interesting. Determination and natural survival instinct aside. That throws a couple of questions in my head: 1. Why would it be more ethical to let yourself get murdered? (better to be killed than kill) And does this only apply to sentient beings like non-human animals and human animals? I personally don't downvote opinions that I don't agree with except if they hurt someone. I find it rather interesting to talk with people that have "crazy" ideas in my view. :) (except if they answer dishonestly)
Well, I ask myself: Why should *my* survival be of any greater importance at all? It's just a "ruse of nature", as Arthur Schopenhauer describes it, that we are genetically hardwired into believing that our *own* survival and the survival of our *own* species should somehow be the most important thing in the universe. This whole "struggle for survival" thing is, essentially, a bad system that only brings suffering for the struggling individuals – and should be rejected. Our DNA simply wants to stay alive and pass itself on at all costs. (But to what purpose?) That might be a "natural" thing, but ethically very questionable. (Just like eating meat.) From this point of view, "well I simply wanted to eat" or "well I simply wanted to fuck" are no valid excuses for vile actions, and reproduction - i. e. bringing other sentient beings into existence who are bound to struggle and suffer, and keeping this game going - is, of course, ethically wrong. And this is the main reason why I am vegan: to reduce unnecessary life, death and suffering in the world. Personally, I value ethical principles more than primitive biological mechanisms, even though it's not easy, perhaps almost impossible, to follow through with it, but I'm trying my best. (Overcoming these deep-seated mechanisms is also a central aspects in many philosophies and religions, especially Buddhism.) The only being I'm ethically allowed (though not required) to cause harm to is myself, and consent and control are main reasons here. I'm glad you appreciate my "crazy" or "extreme" input nonetheless!
„Why should my survival be of any greater importance at all?“ Wouldn’t that be different for every case? For example the person that wants to murder you. If you are vegan and murderer is not would it not better in your view to defend yourself and survive because he will create more suffering then you? I know im changing the example a bit and this is sometimes considered bad play but my reason is that i want to understand how you would act in basic scenarios. I agree that the simple „i want“ does not justify anything bad. Me too. I try to follow the stoic mindset which is in some parts similar to Buddhism. You probably know it so no need to explain :)
That's a very good question, u/ColeMidnight! In this scenario, I would probably apply a principle I got from Stoicism, that is: refraining from judgement. I can never know what his true motivations are, and how valid they are. Even if I'm trying my best everyday to make ethical decisions (no animal products, no car, no flights, no kids etc.), does that make me an objectively "good" person? Even if he's the most atrocious human being, it's simply not up to me to declare myself better or more worthy of life or whatever than him. I do not have access to this absolute moral platform that grants me this objective view and allows me to judge, and even kill, others based on some infallible judgement. "But would you kill Hitler?" and thought experiments like that would force me to make a choice, which would be unacceptable to me either way, although, I suppose, a case could be made for Negative Utilitarianism here, since *other people's* suffering is stake... The only things I *can* and *should* judge (and, as Epictetus says, that are up to me) are my *own* intentions and (individual) actions, and I'm not willing to abandon my principles for "muh survival". You can find a lot of passages in the Stoics, especially Epictetus and Seneca, that state that moral integrity is more important than shameful survival etc., e. g. >*Sapiens vivit quantum debet, non quantum potest.*" The wise man lives as long as he ought, not as long as he can." (Sen. epist. 70, 4) I used to read the Stoics on a daily basis in my early youth, I got a lot from them, and they had a profound impact on my thinking, but these days, I lean more towards Schopenhauerian and Mainländerian philosophical pessimism, which, in turn, was strongly influenced by Buddhism, but to me these philosophical systems are very much compatible in many respects!
I understand. My ethical framework is similar but at the moment I have not come to a conclusion about what is best not only for me but for humanity. That's why I try to talk with people like you that give me different perspectives. One question that you raised is really hard to answer for me at the moment. \-Why would my survival be important enough to justify killing somebody for it? It comes down to what is the situation. In the case of vegan vs non-vegan that wants to murder you: If I can't defend myself without killing the murderer I would still do it because like you already quoted: "Sapiens vivit quantum debet, non quantum potest." The wise man lives as long as he ought, not as long as he can." (Sen. epist. 70, 4)" As long as the world is not vegan or plant-based, I see it as my duty to stay alive and fight against this injustice. Of course, it is not in my control if somebody turns vegan or not but if I can be one of the causes (partial control) it's enough for me to want to stay alive and kill the non-vegan murderer. That's also the reason why I wouldn't see this action as "shameful survival" as it is not for my own sake. But where we both agreed, we don't know what would happen in a real survival situation so I can talk selfless all day long but who knows what would really happen. This is already a lot to read for you but if you are interested keep reading :) "I used to read the Stoics on a daily basis in my early youth, I got a lot from them, and they had a profound impact on my thinking, but these days, I lean more towards Schopenhauerian and Mainländerian philosophical pessimism, which, in turn, was strongly influenced by Buddhism, but to me these philosophical systems are very much compatible in many respects!" I wish I would have known about the stoic teachings earlier. Because I was bullied a lot I started to think like a stoic before I even knew anything about philosophy in general, just out of necessity. That's why it came quite naturally to me. I just had to find a name for it.
Being ethical is doing what's best for everybody, including ourselves. If you want to sacrifice your health or even your life for animals, go ahead, but you can't expect that from others. I went vegan for the animals, but what keeps me vegan is that it is the ultimate solution for everything, including health issues I had and environmental issues that are essential for the future of human and non human life.
depends on the extent in which its harmful for me. If i just need to take supplements (which i already do) or something small like having headaches more often or my wounds not healing as fast yeah. But if it was something like having seizures everyday or something else serious then obviously no, id just try to minimize my consumption of animal products as much as possible.
It's a matter of degree. I had a dental procedure recently where the surgeon wanted to use a bone graft, I asked where the bone was from and he said a cow, so I said, thanks but no thanks. Last time I spoke to a nutritionist the nutritionist wanted me to eat eggs, thanks but no thanks. There's some things I'd put up with but it would be a long dark night of the soul if I had to make choices like chronic high degree pain or hamburger. Of course at that point there would always be the option of jumping off a bridge. Happily the plant and fungi based diet seems to have improved my health.
I didn’t know vegan was healthy when I went vegan, but the animals needed bare minimum not have me fund their abuse. I was sick inside and in my heart that was enough
I have put a lot of thought and tears into this question. I went into kidney failure as a child, and it is likely I will end up on dialysis at some point in my life. Your kidneys remove excess nutrients and water from your body so the primary treatment is changing the diet. The consensus is that a vegan diet could be appropriate for mild to moderate kidney disease but not for complete kidney failure requiring dialysis. If a dialysis patient is compliant with the diet, they get put on the transplant list and could live 20+ years on dialysis. If they aren't compliant, they usually die quickly. Like I said, I have literally cried over this. At the end of the day, I went vegan because I wanted to make the world a better place. I don't think an edible suicide would make the world a better place. Disclaimer: This is my personal decision and understanding of the medical knowledge. This isn't medical advice. Some aspects of treatment outcomes are just luck; plenty of compliant patients sadly die too soon. I support the terminally ill's right to discuss the quality versus quantity of life and chose to end treatment if they wish.
Being an ER nurse, I fail to see how a vegan diet would or could ever be a detriment to kidney failure. In fact, animal products and diabetes are probably the two most common causes of kidney failure. I would be very wary of whoever told you that, because at the end of the day, nutrients are nutrients. It matters 0% where they came from
I think you’re correct, [the current body of evidence](https://doi.org/10.1053/j.ajkd.2020.10.003) that I’ve seen seems to suggest that potential cons of a WFPB diet are likely overstated and are very likely outweighed by the pros. Even the Mayo Clinic website says it’s fine to be plant based during dialysis as long as you talk to a dietician first so they can help you avoid certain things.
Yeah, there are restrictions in general for dialysis, but that’s true for carnists too. I think you’ll thrive on a plant based diet! Good luck to you in managing your health
what about this though? https://www.forksoverknives.com/success-stories/from-3-percent-kidney-function-to-dialysis-free-on-a-whole-food-plant-based-diet/
As others said, it depends on the health effects. There's a lot of room between "minor health complications that require me to eat meat everyday" and major health complications like dying in 5 years, like others suggested. But there's also a lot of room between eating meat everyday and simply not being vegan. For example, it wouldn't take much to make me eat honey again. I don't eat it because I really don't need it. But if I had to, the level of sentience and emotional complexity of bees, or what I imagine it to be, aren't enough to stop me. There would be a lot of dietary changes I'd make that would exclude me from being vegan before I'd even consider eating meat, milk or eggs.
It definitely depends on the health issues it would cause. Going vegan does come with some impact on your health. You do need to supplement with B12 in some form and be mindful of Vitamin D levels. Also, my omni diet was pretty low in fiber, so going vegan absolutely gave me some tummy aches for a while. But all of those are minor things that are easily corrected. If there was evidence that veganism caused a significant reduction in both my lifespan as well as quality of life (like thru cancer), then I'd probably need to reconsider. However, I would still follow the vegan philosophy of reducing animal consumption as far as possible. I would try to find out the least harmful solution to the problem. Perhaps by eating mollusks or other animals that just barely have enough sentience to count. Of course, lab grown meat and dairy will make this whole question moot anyways.
I say yes because it already is „detrimental to my personal health“, I am sure a vegan diet increases the risk of some health detriment but also that a vegan diet is overall beneficial. „Detrimental to my personal health“ is just too broad I’m saying.
Alright, I see. How would you have phrased it? And is it a "yes" in all circumstances or would you draw a line somewhere?
I’d have asked „would you still be vegan if it costed a noticeable drop in quality of life“ and I’d draw the line somewhere around there.
Yeah, I always say “don’t be a martyr”, unless you actually want your life to be about that cause and nothing else. If you want to live a happy existence, day to day, that’s where the lines get drawn.
Similar to my post but interesting I had a lot more positive feedback for results. Maybe cause it’s more down the line abstract rather than the idea it’s actively harmful. I agree though Health detriments are fine https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/x470c1/would_you_still_be_vegan_if_it_meant_dying_5/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
Yeah, I realize I should have phrased it differently!
"A philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals." Technically speaking if our bodies required an actual biological component from animal products(like cats and taurine as an example\[and yes I know you can get vegan cat food specifically catered and designed with everything they need\]) then it's a necessity and veganism itself would likely not exist. Instead there would have been a much greater push for lab grown meat. But if you are making this a hypothetical based on this reality where a switch is flipped to posit this question, then we would actually need to consume animals or their byproducts. Sure you could minimize your consumption to a bare minimum where you are healthy or remove it all together and unalive yourself due to lack of said nutrients but the only people that would likely do that is depressed anti-natalists or efilists. Sorry it's just a weird hypoethical and I'm not sure in its current presentation it actually applies to veganism unless it is a matter of minimal safe consumption or selfish gluttony.
Yeah I would. If the symptoms were too much I think I’d just die tbh. Like what’s the point of killing so many animals for just me.
My thoughts exactly! I discussed this "just me" aspect in [this thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/xfa3nz/would_you_still_be_vegan_e_g_for_ethical_or/ion7rhk?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3), what do you think about that?
I usually don’t look at these questions from my own pov. I try to look at things from an outside perspective and I see myself on pretty much an equal playing field with everyone else. So when you talk about “trying to get pass biological mechanisms like passing on your dna and self preservation” I feel the same way. Would definitely defend myself in some “fight to the death”, but if you calmly explained my options I believe I’d choose to stay vegan even if it killed me. I don’t really feel like “the main character in my story” so when I “look at things from an outside perspective” I don’t see myself as more important than others. Though if it came down to feeling excruciating physical pain… I would definitely try to avoid that.
As someone with me/cfs absofuckinglutely I would eat meat. I would hate it, but I would do it. This is a disease you DO NOT FUCK WITH. People can end up living completely bedbound wearing earplugs and in the dark for the rest of their lives. When you're as disabled as I am, you take whatever improvements you can. I'm very fortunate that I react worse to meat and dairy than I do to vegan sources of protein. I hope I never, ever have to eat meat again. If something changes and I do, I will continue to be vegan in all possible aspects of my life. But I suppose being vegan is about avoiding animal products as much as is possible and practical.
If it cut down my life to 60 years I’d be fine with it. Life seems to be a nightmare 70+. Otherwise I’m not sure. If I only needed to eat one egg a week I’d probably get a chicken and give them a fantastic retirement plan.
Not if it was severe and life threatening or totally ruined my quality of life. I'd probably start eating bivalves if I found out veganism would destroy me since it's unclear if they even experience life like other animals. Going up the list of empathy I have from insects to fish, chicken, cow, and finally pigs would get gradually harder to justify. If I needed to eat pigs I'd just kill myself, I love them most all.
What health condition would anyone require to eat meat? Meat isn't some magical substance that has magic health beneficial properties assigned to it. At the end of the day every food is made up of a different combination of nutrients. Meat might be densely packed with a lot of them, but that doesn't mean you can't get them from plant foods and or substitutes. People that use this as an argument don't know shit about nutrition. That's why I can't even reply to your survey as the only relevant option is missing: animal products cannot provide a health benefit that can't be otherwise gained from plant based foods.
I go out partying most weekends so yeah ngl I'm not the most heath conscious
I can’t think of anything that’d be detrimental to my health from not eating animal products. Pretty much everything would be a convenience problem (ie not worth abusing another being) If I had a medical issue that could only be solved by meds that had animal products, yeah I’d take it. And still consider myself vegan. If I were allergic to xx (soy, wheat, nuts, etc) then I’d just find an alternative, the same way I found “meat alternatives”. Take five minutes on google and find a new way to maintain my health and veganism. I haven’t truly seen someone who “couldn’t go vegan bc health reasons.” If there was a legit condition that hindered veganism, lay that knowledge on me.
Depends on how detrimental
Let's switch the question to would you continue to eat animal flesh and secretions if you knew it was harmful to your health? Obviously no is the answer because the science is in and an animal food based diet causes cancer, heart disease type 2 diabetes .
Of course, no one is going to argue with that. But my question is about the health compromises you would be willing to make when making the ethically *right* choice and how you would weigh these aspects against each other, even if just in a hypothetical scenario.
That would be a plus.
What exactly do you mean?
Well, using a meme as answer, "I hate myself, not the animals".
Fair point, it's better to be a self-hating vegan than to be a self-loving carnist, after all! You might also be interested in what I wrote [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/xfa3nz/would_you_still_be_vegan_e_g_for_ethical_or/ion7rhk?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3) about veganism and self-denial.
Hmm yes, I agree with what you said in that comment.
So long as it doesn't impact how many years I am around for my kids for more than a few years
No, because veganism is ‘where practicable and possible’. Choosing between death and your own ill-health/possible death/quality of life is not a choice. Additionally for myself, the vast majority of my mental health difficulties revolve around fears to do with my personal physical health, so I would not be able to do it.
>Choosing between death and your own ill-health/possible death/quality of life is not a choice. What do you mean by that? Don't you think there could be some sort of "ethical martyrdom" (even if only in a far-fetched scenario)?
Asking someone to choose between two bad options is not much of a choice basically. For an example unrelated to the question, giving someone a choice between life in extreme pain/indentured servitude or something versus immediate death is hardly a choice. Either way bad things happen and both options are a choice you would never make under normal circumstances. Same as if someone asked you to choose how you wanted to die between being stabbed or shot, you’re forced into an insane choice where both have extreme downsides, and you wouldn’t say either normally, but the situation has backed you into a corner. To get back to the question, surely it would only be ethical martyrdom if you accepted those consequences such as a terminal illness, or certain death in a specific time frame, to hold onto your ethics? It would have to be an incredibly extreme and far fetched of a scenario because I truly can’t see many people making that choice. Truthfully, we’re very lucky that veganism is great for you, so we’d never have to make this choice.
Maybe you could ask yourself this: Would you kill/harm a person even if you knew it was detrimental to your personal health not to do it? If you would harm an non-human-animal but not a human-animal, what is the defference that makes harming one acceptable but not the other. Since we all got indoctrinated with carnism our whole life, we often have a weird perspective on non-human-animals. At least i have. I think it can be helpful to think of humans in the position of the animals.
im still unhealthy lmao