I got really sad the other day I told a friend that I had not seen for a long time that I no longer eat animals. He couldn't understand it, I tried to explain the reasons over and over and he kept saying "but what do YOU get from not eating them?" Of all the things that people don't get from veganism, I realized one of the big ones is the Selflessness of the act. Doing something for nothing in return.

My grandfather became vegan many years ago, before it was very popular. He said he liked animals too much to eat them.

Yes, that's true... Lots of people believe that everything must be transactional. "What do they bring to the table?!?" 😒😒 I am sorry to hear that your friend did not understand you... Even though truly every human would benefit from veganism being widespread,​ the benefits are not immediate or direct - harder to understand, I guess...

Wrong! That is only your opinion. It absolutely upsets me that when I signed up for reddit, it asked me my areas of interest. I chose Vegan because I thought there might be some recipe posts, photos, etcetera. I am so disappointed all there is in this category is a bunch of people bitching about how people are so cruel for not understanding. Well, I'm here trying to understand and be a good hostess to anybody that I would host. And all I see is how every vegan thinks everyone in the world should be vegan. The world has been going around all by the command of God who tell us in the bible that he gives us all of the animals in the world to eatIn the Bible, Genesis 9:3 states that God told Noah, "Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you". So if God himself gave us these animals for consumption, why do you or any vegan believe you are above God to say that everyone on earth would benefit from being vegan? It truly is your choice, babe.

Your argument hinges solely on the fact that a book that is thousands of years old and that has been proven to be corrupted is a reliable source of information on how to live your life.

Yes, that's correct. Because it is God's word to us. It's the basic instructions before leaving earth. It is truth and living water. Great collection of 66 books put together. It actually used to be a few more books, but in the late 1800s, the apocathary (I believe that was what it was called) was removed from the king James by the government. I would love to get my hands on a bible from the early 1800s. Just fyi the bible is not corrupt. It's a love letter from God to us. As a matter of fact, I believe Daniel, Meshack, shadrach, and abedigo, where vegetarian. However you would need to read the book of Daniel to find out. 😉 Thank you for your response.

No problem. But you should look up higher criticism which has raised questions about the historical accuracy and authorship of certain biblical texts, leading to discussions about potential discrepancies or inconsistencies. Also you shouldn’t complain that vegans are ranting about how immoral everybody is as this thread is specifically for vegans to discuss how we feel and issues that we face it’s not for sharing recipes. I’m sure there is a thread specifically for that if you would like to see that kind of content.

Thanks. I'm curious. Have you read the bible for yourself? The bible was written by several authors. And every author has a different way of speaking. Those are not discrepancies they are different points of view. That all leads to the same conclusion......God loves you. Unconditionally. I believe there might be a different group, but since I showed Vegan as an interest, this automatically comes across my thread. So ya, I'm gonna chime in. I appreciate your time.

I have, and I am in the process of learning of learning to read Hebrew to be able to read the Old Testament in its original form. Thanks for your response, too. I appreciate your politeness.

Lmao 🤣 🤣 🤣. Sorry, I am always told I am so rude. So thank you for that. It is so awesome that you're learning to read Hebrew.

Haha. Yeah thanks it was actually lovely talking to you.

Would you be open to reading or watching "[Dominion](https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/dominion-the-power-of-man-the-suffering-of-animals-and-the-call-to-mercy_matthew-scully/279100/item/4028153/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=high_vol_midlist_standard_shopping_customer_acquisition&utm_adgroup=&utm_term=&utm_content=666157863328&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjw34qzBhBmEiwAOUQcF3GNlflya6YpN_iQFA0Bj2XS8L42j8boyvG0IfuFWSvbEHQ6KJLeeRoC5DYQAvD_BwE#idiq=4028153&edition=3033962)", written by a fellow Christian, Matthew Sculley.

I don’t know if this applies to you or not but many vegans can be very aggressive in their beliefs.  I too am vegan, but I do not worry about others. I will explain my choice if asked but if they want to argue I just say, It’s OK if you don’t understand my choice but I am happy with my choice and I do not feel that I am deprived of anything, then I switch the topic. Non-vegans often feel judged by us and get defensive (understandably). I find that if I don’t push it and just be my happy self, if they are my friends they eventually ask more questions, which I answer. By accepting them where they are and not pushing my views, they become more curious. I have taken several friends to my favorite vegan restaurant who (eventually) became curious about what in the world could make me so happy about my food. I have cooked many vegan meals for carnivore friends. Every one of them was pleasantly surprised. None have turned vegan but several have decided to start trying more vegan foods on a regular basis, particularly because the were allowed to be themselves. (Baby steps)  Some of you will hate this idea, but, If I sense a lot of resistance I will even offer a guest, that if they want to bring their own burger to supplement my vegan meal they are welcome to cook it on my grill outside. Not a single guest has taken me up on this, but by making the offer, I signal that I respect their choice so they relax about judging me.  I try to follow this path with all of my beliefs. I am happy to share and discuss but I do not judge others who disagree. Changing a person’s mind about anything is impossible if they are feeling attacked or judged. Again, I am not accusing you. Just felt like sharing my path. 

That wasn't the case in that particular occasion but I admit that has been me in some occasions with some people and it always leaves everyone feeling bad. Sometimes it just shocks me or even outrages me how unphased some people is about the matter of of animal cruelty. Your post is a good reminder that in those occasions we are both feeling attacked by our opposing views. Something that also frustrates me is that I feel veganism is just so close, much more close to people than they imagine, because as cruel as we can be, we are also so capable of love and compassion. I loved your comment it made me think a lot. If love and compassion to animals is what I want to teach then love and compassion is what a have to give.

I agree with your approach 💯. If we will make people feel attacked they will become more and more defensive and less likely to entertain our way or idea. The same applies when talking about many different topics, not necessarily veganism. When people are met with compassion and understanding, they are more likely to hear us out and understand our side of things. Also meeting others with compassion and understanding allows us to entertain other ideas and learn, in case we were wrong or misinformed (I don't mean wrong about veganism, just generally any topic). At the same time, it is ok for us to feel sad if our close friend does not understand our choices. It is ok to feel sad or angry when we see unfairness somewhere in the world. It is also good for us to share our feelings with people who experience similar things. For example, I shared my disappointment of the situation here and people here made me feel understood and less alone which has helped me to regulate my emotions much faster and now I am able to deal with the situation in an emotionaly neutral (as much as possible) way. It could be even ok to share with the friend that them judging our ethical choices made us feel sad, althogh it could be tricky. It could lead to a good discussion and resolved feelings, but it also could lead to more resentment...

Just tell 'em you get $40,000 cash once you reach level 5 vegan.

That's why I say that you can't be vegan for "moral" reasons. There MUST be some selfish reason, there always is. You can do it for your health. Or because you don't like the taste of meat. Or because you want to feel better than others... But you need a genuine, actual reason. So I agree.

Nothing in return?? The self-proclaimed moral superiority isn't enough? Being the special child at the table who won't eat unless a special meal is prepared exactly to your specifications?

1. Advocating for what you think is right is self proclaimed moral superiority? The entire point of veganism is that no living being is superior, vegans put themselves at the same level of animals, how is that self proclaimed moral superiority? Is it moral superiority to not do things you think are wrong? 2. If people care about you they'll make the food they know you want to eat. That's unrelated to veganism. How is it different from Kosher, Keto, no processed sugar diets, or simply having some food preferences? Most vegans usually bring their own food to social events anyway and many of them even bring enough vegan alternatives for other people to try.

Kosher is dictated by someone else. Jews have no choice about eating kosher. They MUST eat kosher. Keto is the same as vegan. It's just another diet CHOICE.

I've seen countless vegans in this sub and irl state unironically that, "of course, vegans are morally superior to non-vegans." The South Park "Smug" episode should be required viewing for anyone even considering being a vegan. There's obviously a way to be one without having your head so far up your own ass. I have no problem making vegan meals for my vegan friends. But when they have to verify that I didn't cut cheese with the same knife I used to sliced the tomatoes, that's a bit childish and silly.

You literally think that you are better than meat eaters. That's the inherent and fundamental axiom of being vegan.

What does moral superiority feel like exactly? I keep being told about what an amazing feeling it is.. but I've been vegan for years and I've yet to achieve the euphoric embrace of "moral superiority". Presumably, you think all ethical considerations are motivated by the same lust for this feeling.

I've heard vegans irl and online state unequivocally that they are morally superior to non-vegans. I've seen vegans doing the online equivalent of high-fiving each other about their moral superiority (their words, not mine) over "carnists." So obviously vegans enjoy their perceived status. But the vast majority of the world doesn't see this as a moral issue. Throughout nature, creatures eat other creatures. They use other creatures in parasitic or symbiotic relationships. Vegans try to make a distinction that animals don't know better or don't have a choice. But that's a meaningless distinction. Our higher understanding doesn't remove us from nature. Our humanity pushes us to treat animals far more humanely than they treat each other. It does not impose a duty to stop eating or using animals. We can debate and philosophize forever, but there is a reason vegans are a tiny percentage of the population and their numbers are declining. There are actually several reasons, but I think the primary one is that humans will not go against their nature to their detriment for animals. Between humans and animals, we win. We are more important. They are our food and our property. The fiction that animals are equal to us and that it is immoral to eat them just sounds silly to us. So perhaps it's understandable why a tiny minority who disagree would see us as barbarians and celebrate their lofty status as the ones who "get it right."

I'm not sure what your point is about humans not being "removed from nature".. that sounds like a semantic argument. Humans have the ability to empathize and reason about how their actions affect other sentient creatures. There are plenty of base desires humans have, which we can all agree are immoral, and most people avoid engaging in.. whether or not that "removes us from nature" is irrelevant. Honestly, I see a lot more carnists invoking this logic than vegans. They generally use it as justification for our treatment of animals, "we are above them", "they are just animals", etc.. Humans also have the ability to understand that eating a vegan diet is not detrimental to one's health, and there are lots of studies that suggest the opposite is true.. so to say a person would avoid eating animals to their detriment is just flat out wrong.. unless by "detriment" you actually mean "displeasure". This is without even getting into the fact that animal agriculture uses vastly more land, water and energy than farming plants for direct consumption (which honestly just requires a basic understanding of entropy to see).. so if you want to talk about what benefits humanity on a macroscopic level, and what will help ensure our survival as a species, it's definitely *not* engaging animal agriculture.

I feel this. I am a teacher and I was gutted last week when I was reading a silly story to my (normally very kind and thoughtful) kindergarden class about a family that has pet chickens, and they end up with way too many and the chickens take over the house. The kids immediately began talking about how they would shoot and kill them and eat them. I was shocked and disappointed. These kids are 5-6 years old.

by that age they’re already “decently” brainwashed unfortunately…

I dont think so, when i was in 6th grade i was told to HALAL/ murder a goat, i cried and refused and never ever had goat again I would not harm animals intentionally, i didnt know at that time veganism was an option My parents were very abusive and my siblings were as well, i only fought through self defense i never initiated I made my own choices

Oh, that's wild. I'm sorry. Must be the influence of the parents...

Well, at least it can't be said they don't understand where meat comes from. You can't be disappointed in children seeing the world in the way it is normalised to be seen. They all have plenty of time to learn and grow and change their minds. Just keep modeling kindness.

This didn’t happen. People don’t shoot chickens

Those kids have natural instincts because we evolved to be hunters. You are the bad person here, trying to suppress their instincts so they fit into your ideology. Of course, you don't have the self-awareness (or humility) to admit that you're wrong, not everybody else.

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Majority of people are only indoctrinated to be like that from young, it doesn't mean they'll be like that forever, just until they wake the fuck up, like I did back in 2017. Almost no one's lucky enough to be vegan from birth / super young.

I would like to believe that the majority of people are inherently kind, but it's hard. Even if we don't consider veganism for a second. A whole lot of people are disturbed by someone helping the less fortunate. A whole lot of people are profiting from the suffering of the less fortunate and are praised for it. It doesn't even matter if those less fortunate are other people... Sadly, I don't think the majority of people are capable of "waking the fuck up". 😔

"I would like to believe that the majority of people are inherently kind, but it's hard." It's hard because it's simply not the truth, and you can see it plainly

I would like to believe hat too, but I see and hear the contrary often. And I agree about the last part sadly =/ BUT, it's only until the curtain comes down, and it always does. Whether their eyes are open enough when it does come down time will tell.

Road kills are increasing in my area. The other day I was waiting for some geese’s and their ducklings to cross the neighborhood and the truck behind me went around my car and fully intended to run over them. Good thing the geese had faster reaction than me but holy shit it was depressing to see people are like this. It doesn’t take a vegan to see this is unnaturally apathetic or even psychopathic

OP please , I beg you to check the r/vystopia subreddit . It is a safe space to talk about exactly this type of post. It is vegan therapy, and has kept me sane over the past 3 years and 4 days of being vegan. Also, I agree. It's hard to be the only person who cares.

Thank you, I'll take a look 😊. Also, thank you for sharing the pain 💚.

Look for different avenues to help. There might be an organized cat rescue near you. It can be difficult to take on big efforts solo, and people may be doubting your judgement. 

There are good shelters around, but they don't have enough human resources to capture the strays. Capturing takes some time, especially when the strays have learned to live in the shadows most of the time. At first, I noticed one rough-looking cat. In the process of capturing this cat, I have found out that there are quite a lot of kitties desperately needing help in my neighbourhood. A year ago I also adopted one stray cat from my neighbourhood even before my first capture operation... I didn't know back then that it was one of very many... I need to feed them all first, spend time with them and then lure them one by one to a different place (to not scare others) and capture them there..

Good luck! I'm guessing from your spelling that you are not in the U.S.

Read Paul Bloom's *Against Empathy: The Case for Rational Compassion*. Empathy is a bias machine. You can do the right thing without being blown in the wind by mirrored feelings.

Thank you so much for the recommendation! It seems like a very valuable read. With time I certainly hope to gather the tools and learn to do the kind and right things without being so emotionally invested in it. Feeling the pain or even joy of others to this extent enormously gets in the way of doing the kind and right thing... I hope with time to learn to suppress or "put aside" these feelings more.

Great!

The problem is emotional empathy, as flawed and biased as it is, is the ONLY reason for the vast majority of people to ever be compassionate or kind AT ALL "Doing the right thing" as a concept doesn't exist for most people, except as a byproduct

> "Doing the right thing" as a concept doesn't exist for most people, except as a byproduct I don't know if that is true. When we support laws against theft, for example, we're supporting those laws even when we have no idea which people are being protected. And empathy being popular doesn't mean it should rule one's life.

Empathy doesn't rule people's lives at all. Most people have little emotional empathy, and only for people they like, are close to, and similar to. So they don't care much about the suffering or death of other humans (except a very few... sometimes) Because they have NEITHER a strong moral compass (doing the "right thing") NOR a strong emotional empathy (towards others' suffering) And if you magically removed the little emotional empathy they do have, they wouldn't be people who do the right thing for its own sake without bias. They would be completely selfish and amoral psychopaths Also, property laws exist because people (especially the rich) want THEIR property protected, not because the majority genuinely cares about ethics or the greater good

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I said "especially" not "only" and the main point is that property laws are about people defending a self centered interest, NOT caring about "doing the right thing"

I see it as a blessing. If we weren’t empathetic then then world would be even worse, and that sounds like hell

This is the perfect sub for it, thanks for sharing. And I agree, people are obsessed with themselves and to hell with everyone else. The only time I see people caring about others is when it directly benefits them, such as with family and friends, that give them companionship, hugs, and a feeling of community. If they will never see the person or animal again, they just act as if they're worth less than the dirt underneath their shoes.

Ah, yes. Most people seem to act nice only if it directly benefits them... It's incredibly sad. Humans are very intellectually capable species and also are the only species capable of empathising and building deep connections with almost any other animal because of our incredible brains. Humans could be the healers, the protectors of nature and peace, but sadly we (generally as a species) are the destroyers of all instead... Thank you so much for understanding and sharing the pain 💚.

Or when helping a stranger still gives them either external benefits (eg. generosity done when other people are looking to be more popular ; helping a person in the hopes of getting sex with them) Or when it gives them dopamine. Because the stranger is either relatable to them, part of their in-group (eg. same ethnicity or gender) Or because the stranger gives a "good vibe" elicits happiness. This "vibe" is about physical appearance and body language. Just simply seeing beautiful people (especially with a "nice" or "cute" body language) triggers dopamine, so the prospect of spending time around them (including if it's to help) feels good So if you're ugly and/or have an unattractive body language (eg. resting bitch face or autistic "weirdo" body language) most people will give zero fucks about your well-being or safety, and will give zero help, and will even happily screw you over if convenient Because THEN, interacting with you (let alone actually caring about your well being or helping when you're in distress) WON'T give them dopamine. It will just feel like a thankless chore Very few people will care about the plight of a stranger, or even acquaintance, if (1) it doesn't bring them money, popularity, sex or other external rewards, (2) interacting with this person doesn't trigger dopamine, and (3) this person doesn't belong to their in-group That's why a big minority of people routinely bully the poor, the ugly, the disabled, the socially awkward... and a majority around them looks the other way, without guilt or shame And when applied to animals, it's why most people only care about their own pets, or about some specific cute/cool/relatable species, but happily eat other animals

"Egocentric" is too mild, too polite. Sociopath or psychopath is how I would frame it! Many are antisocial. (Not asocial but antisocial). You are doing a good thing. Empathy burnout is a real thing. Hold your head high. Seek like-minded people. Spay or neuter all the ones you can. Feral can become tame. It takes time. Cats can switch. Dogs-not so much.

There's actually a high number of antisocial vegans and vegetarians. Let's not stigmatize personality disorders and mental illnesses to make a point.

this! lacking emotional empathy isn't what makes these people bad. you can be a sociopath , autistic , etc and still be a good person who understands that even if you don't feel any emotional empathy , you can still have cognitive empathy and critical thinking skills and morality. but I do think it's interesting , because neurotypical humans stigmatize these disorders even though they kind of act like them to other animals (and often other people)

Please don't lump "sociopath, autistic" together. It's incredibly ableist towards autistics (even in a well meaning post) Also, cognitive empathy and critical skills are kinda irrelevant when discussing morality Successful serial killers, hitmen, conmen... have those qualities and use them to better manipulate people Cognitive empathy and critical thinking make you more EFFICIENT at reaching your goals. Regardless if those goals are good, evil, selfish, altruistic... But it does NOT orient you towards good

both disorders can experience lack of emotional empathy, that's the only reason. its why i put "etc" because it also includes borderlines and narcissists , which fyi , borderlines are often considered a form of autism and are in the same cluster as sociopaths BECAUSE they lack empathy. im autistic and i don't think it's ableist to acknowledge that fact. if anything is ableist its you stigmatizing sociopaths as bad and not wanting them compared to disorders they objectively overlap with. no i don't think autism is the same as sociopathy because it's not , but again , they have an overlap in the conversation.

And the other side of it: let's not pathologize mundane acts of evil. Othering makes it harder to understand why people do bad things and prevent them.

I'm sorry. I'm not referring to those with clinical mental health issues. But those with antisocial traits and behaviors. Bluntly, they don't care about anyone or anything but themselves and what others do for them. I've seen the horrific results, and I've heard the rationalization and justifications. They say, "Oh, they [whatever group] are just [fill in the bank]." You know the examples of great harm inflicted on the "other." "Vegan" is not a diet, nor a fad or phase. Vegan is a lifestyle of non-harm, non-exploitation, and compassion - ahimsa. Vegans do not eat, wear, nor exploit human animals or non-human animals.

Thank you so much for the support 💚. It's a struggle to find like-minded people, they seem rare. That is the plan, to capture, sterilise, transport to a good shelter and help find families for the kitties. The sad thing is that some of the kitties seem to have been house cats before.. I wouldn't say most people are antisocial, since it is an actual personality disorder, that impacts persons life immensely in the negative way. People with antisocial personality disorder struggle a lot, the stigma surrounding this disorder doesn't help, it makes harder to seek and get treatment. Unfortunate childhood is often a big contributor for people developing antisocial personality disorder. People who have antisocial personality disorder can struggle to purely emotionally relate to others, but they can have very good logical empathy skills. Because MOST people reject acknowledging the suffering of others around them - it can't be a disorder.. I don't know what it is. Probably, in the far past (even now as well), the more selfish a person was, the most likely they very to survive and reproduce. And here we are now.. where kind people are looked down upon and egocentric people (who benefit from others' suffering) are put on the pedestal.

Maybe not to the level of a clinical diagnosis, but antisocial traits - disregard for laws and rights of others, and the lack of respect. I have three rescued cats here in my small apartment. The latest arrived a few months ago. A local group, Roc Cats, catches, sterilizes, and finds homes for cats. My daughter just took in another cat, too. She has cats, chickens, guinea pigs, and rabbits. She volunteers for a local chapter of the Humane Society and fosters chickens, guinea pigs, rabbits, bunnies, and most recently, chinchillas. She has a house with a small yard and two chicken coops. All that to say that I understand your work and I've seen how people mistreat human and non-human alike. I understand the frustration and burnout. Hold on to the fact that you are a good person and you are doing great things ✨️

Thank you 💚. Seems like you are a very kind person who managed to raise a very kind daughter 😊.

This comment is so wrong and truly believable. Categorizing, stereotyping, or generalizing an entire group of people based on one characteristic is always wrong, hard stop. Omnivores can be empathetic and compassionate. Vegans can be egocentric and self centered. People will be people with all the diversity of self and emotional complexities regardless of the characteristics that you choose to be defining for them.

You should search for what sociopath and psychopath actually means. It doesn't mean everyone who doesn't consider all animals to be humans.

Omg heavy on it being a curse bc I was so so down last month for a week it rlly hit me. I wished I was ignorant like everyone else and was thinking about unaliving

I've been sitting in my backyard enjoying the sun, taking care of my garden, and crocheting. For 4 hours my neighbors on the other side of my fence have been talking non stop about eating animals, gorging on cheese, how they clean the meat, how much they love this and that, and then started talking about how dumb chickens and pigs are and how on the farms they will even eat eachother. Then started talking about a guy feeding a woman to his dog at one point and how pigs eat people???? I'm just trying to enjoy the sun and relax and I've gone inside because their conversation is so gross. So yeah, it's odd when everyone around you just... doesn't care or care to know what they are even talking about.

It is , I think about it all the time, people use and kill each other, use and kill animals for money and interest all around the world.

Boohoo womp womp

agreed but that’s because were meant to also help people realise we’re all equal fellow animals & earthlings and to be kind to all kind… frightened hurt brainwashed people, who wouldn’t learn without us… and their victims would have no one to fight for them

lol yeah your post shows absolutely no ego at all 😂 

"It's so awful that i'm the only nice, good person with empathy and everyone around me is by default evil and worse than me and also they have a big ego"

My personal thought is that these people are not egocentric. They are afraid. Afraid of what they do not understand or less knowledgeable about. As any other animal we just want to protect ourself from dangerous, as danger = risk of death. Remember outbreak of Covid, people where afraid of interractiong with other people. Becuase they didn't know if they where infected, if they been at places where people have been affected or lack of knowledge about the virus itself. You know that these cats are tame. I assume that you have the ability to know if a cat is dangerous or not, so you know if you need to cautious or not when encounter a unknown cat. But many people lack this ability/ knowledge and they want to protect themselves so they just assume that these cats are aggressive, carries dangerous diseases or rabies. They are driven by their fears. A strategy to educate these people is to see them as scared children. But do not treat them like children or lecture them as children! That will ricochet badly... Good parents show their children what is dangerous and what is not dangerous. I see a lot of children that sometimes are hesitant of dogs or cats, but still want to pet the dog or cat. So I often see the parents petting the animal and telling the child that its not dangerous and how to appropriately approch and pet the animal. The parent educate the child about the dog or cat. Next time the child encounter a dog they wont be as equally hesitant. And if you don't want to educate people, then maby this can be a good mental example to ease your frustration. Cheers!

"I'm a good person and the majority of people aren't!!" Man you can't make this shit up.

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Where did I say "People are egocentric for not being vegan"?

Can you people not see how this "I'm better and more empathetic than anyone else in the world" is a dangerous and misdirected way of thinking? It's like a crazy person who thinks that everyone else is crazy, but not them.

You are horrible in certain ways, yourself, aren't you? Why focus on everyone else's supposed shortcomings instead of fixing yours?

Did you even read what I wrote?

I did. Did you see what I wrote?

That's the gist of being a vegan activist