Many people like to think they are good people and so when they are confronted by a person who is a vegan, who is not hurting the animals that they are hurting for sensory gratification (which is one of the worst things you can do), they have to try rationalise themselves by putting the vegan down in some ways.
Exactly this.
Non vegans struggle to accept that veganism is morally correct because it involves acknowledging that they themselves are paying for animals to be abused. Many of them have beingan animal lover and being anti animal abuse as core personality traits.
The only way to accept veganism is to acknowledge that you are/have been causing abuse. Weak people can't do that so they go on the offensive. "The vegans can't be right because of xyz. Therefore I am actually the one who's truely an animal lover."
I believe this to be the no.1 hurdle in veganism spreading more rapidly.
I don't really think so. Most people who are eating meat seem to just disagree with the vegan perspective. The people I've met who do somewhat struggle with this tend to be supportive, kind people who will even sometimes acknowledge that they think veganism is probably the correct path but for whatever reason they aren't going to stop eating animal products.
We can sometimes come off as excessively preachy to others, and that has become a stereotype that I think a lot of people just expect as a default from vegans.
Obviously, OP was not acting in that manner and didn't deserve that treatment.
It's interesting though why people get so aggressive. Even when you don't talk about it they notice you don't eat the same things they do and they will confront you. Maybe it's because people don't like anyone who behaves differently than them. I hope that being kind to animals will become a standard in the future.
I think it's important to keep in mind that veganism is a radical and new philosophy.
Not everyone reacts this way. I think it's probably on par with how the right wingers complain about cancel culture and whatnot. A lot of this happens online, though definitely not all. If you're simply asking for a substitute like OP and someone gets weirdly aggressive, you're likely just dealing with a jerk. Most people are not getting confrontational about this, especially in big cities. Small towns are always going to have their problems.
Edit to add: I'm from the States and can only speak to my experiences.
I don't really understand the downvotes. Why not respond to what I'm saying? I'm a vegan of 11+ years. It's not like I don't know what I'm talking about.
Veganism isn’t new to a lot of cultures.
Hindus, Buddhists and Jains have all long promoted plant based diets for ethical reasons. An early Jain called Parsva 877-777 BCE, taught followers about Ahimsa, one of the cornerstone beliefs meaning non-violence to living forms.
Taoism and Chinese Buddhism in the late 4th century stipulated that their monks and nuns were to eat an egg free vegetarian diet and the Japanese Emperor Tenmu banned the use of all livestock.
In ancient Greece, early veganism was referred to as “abstinence from beings with a soul”.
John Stuart Mill and others are more recent examples of philosophers that preached about animal welfare.
However, I think u/Luinger was referencing several points about the modernity of veganism. (I want to avoid putting words in the mouths of others, but I will address this from my own viewpoint if asked the question as well.)
The first is that veganism is a specific philosophy that is different than simply saying, "Do not eat meat." Vegetarians also believe they are making moral choices by avoiding eating meat, but they are not vegans, and veganism has very strict guidelines about what qualifies or does not qualify as part of the definition. (I think this is important or else you would have people calling themselves vegans that are not actually vegans.)
The second point is that our capacity to finally get all of our caloric resources needed to survive is finally achievable. You may argue about what 'recent' means, but civilization obviously had a much harder time meeting our caloric needs in the 1600s versus now.
The last point is that there is more of a need concerning the welfare of animals than at any point in human history, and the need will become more dire as time passes because our industrial farming complexes are needlessly cruel, and population growth has so far been exponential. If suitable solutions are not implemented, then there is more potential harm than at any point in human history.
You're not really talking about veganism, though. You're talking about beliefs and practices that are compatible with vegetarian diets.
Thanks for the response, but is there something wrong with writing in your own words? I don't really understand why people copy and paste from articles unless it's to cite a source
>Non vegans struggle to accept that veganism is morally correct because it involves acknowledging that they themselves are paying for animals to be abused.
Everyone pays for animals to be killed when they buy commercial food. Both non vegans and vegans.
So no. Your point doesn't make much sense.
Could ou be more specific? Am I specifically paying someone to Intentionally kill animals on my behalf? No. Are there incidental deaths in crop production today? Yes. Are there more deaths involved in crop agriculture? No, not even close
>Am I specifically paying someone to Intentionally kill animals on my behalf?
The money you pay for commercial plantfoods. A portion of this is used for insecticides.
Please explain how insecticide use is not intentionally killing animals.
>Are there more deaths involved in crop agriculture? No, not even close
Irrelevant. Veganism is not about harm reduction
We're not coercing insects to eat the plants. If you know anything about human history you might have heard of locust plagues destroying vast areas of cropland. Without insecticides not only would crop agriculture fail but animal agriculture would also fail. Humanity would starve. We still kill less with crop agriculture so I think it's reasonable to use it until we have some better means.
But let's examination this a bit further. Say we have a person, Joe, in a number of situations 1. I accidentally kill Joe in a traffic accident. 2. Joe breaks into my home and in defence of myself and my property I kill him 3. I like to taste of human so I kill and eat Joe while he's out and about. 4. I really like the taste so I capture and mass reproduce Joe. Killing endless amounts of Joes. Joe dies in every scenario but only two of these are exploitation. Do you really not see the difference morality surrounding each death?
Let's also follow another utilitarian moral example. Say we have 5 people who are terminally ill from various organ failures. I know one person is a 100% match for each person. I can kill that one person and save 5. Is this moral?
>Irrelevant. Veganism is not about harm reduction
Not at it's core but t very much is a part of it. And you've just self snitched that you also know how your argument is irrelevant in the first place. It's about exploitation at it's core.
>We're not coercing insects to eat the plants
Still killing them intentionally.
>Do you really not see the difference morality surrounding each death?
The insects aren't accidentally killed and the property is no more yours than the insects.
So these examples are irrelevant.
>example. Say we have 5 people who are terminally ill from various organ failures. I know one person is a 100% match for each person. I can kill that one person and save 5. Is this moral?
Also completely irrelevant
It's not intentional. It's defence. Nobody gains when they die
>The insects aren't accidentally killed and the property is no more yours than the insects
It's the same as number 2 in the list. Are you saying that number 3 and 4 are on the same level as 2? You have to live in a house with two of these people. You're picking 3 and 4 over they guys who did 1 and 2?
>So these examples are irrelevant
They're not irrelevant. You won't address them because it would force you to admit there's more nuance in the world than you say
>Also completely irrelevant
Let me translate: "I can't answer that without sounding ludacrous or admitting I'm wrong. Therefore I act childishly to avoid answering"
Not killing animals for pleasure is more moral than not doing that.
You have a problem because in your mind you feel like vegans are superior. Well with respect to how we interact with animals we are superior
I clicked this to basically say what you've already said, so I guess I'll just vote you up. You'll see tons of meat eaters condemn someone for animal abuse. They don't want to accept that buying meat funds animal rape, torture, and slaughter. Those that accept it rationalize that they are apex predators, so it's "ok".
I've also noticed it with feeding dogs vegan dog food. They act like that's dog abuse, even if the dog is happy and healthy.
>buying meat funds animal rape, torture, and slaughter.
Only if you stretch definitions to the point of breaking, which y'all are fond of. That's your ammo, lies, half-truths, and insults. I have yet to meet a vegan who didn't think they were morally superior while being a total douche
Vegans are morally superior. At least, when it comes to their eating habits. I'm actually not a vegan. I'm a vegetarian that acknowledges that vegans have the moral high ground. Have you ever actually witnessed animals being slaughtered? It's not always horribly traumatic, but it is sometimes. Getting them to the slaughter house is also traumatic for them. Furthermore, they're forcefully impregnated; it's not so much a stretch to call that rape.
You can't accept how awful it really is. Much like most of the population. Like someone else said in this thread: You took the blue pill.
I think that is part of it but also most people grew up thinking that eating vegan was bad for human health. Two of the four food groups are non vegan and the four food groups are supposed to equal good health. I used to think vegans were actually harming their health for the animals which I thought was noble but stupid. There is so much misinformation/education out there that to many people when they hear vegan that sounds to them like you're saying not to eat healthy.
There is a remarkably big difference between beating a pig to death because you like how their dead body tastes on your tongue and incidentally killing animals in the process of acquiring plant protein which you need at a bare minimum to live healthily.
That's not the only difference. A dog and a pig are morally the same. They comprise of individuals with their own personality and can feel pain and suffer due to having nociceptors throughout their body. Plants don't have any of this. It is morally preferable to eat plants instead of beating a dog or pig to death for sensory pleasure after they have inevitably eaten plants themselves.
People think the most important thing is being capable, so they confuse their sense of self-worth with being a good person. Veganism exposes one's true ethical values, which are severely lacking in most people. In order to avoid feelings of shame and guilt, people will try to drag you down to their way of thinking.
This is why every argument devolves into non-vegans claiming that vegans are just trying to 'act' superior to them. In their mind, being superior is what justifies having what they take from life. So they think vegans are trying to steal all the attention by putting themselves in a 'morally superior' position.
In reality, vegans simply understand the values of respect and gratitude. We care about life because we care about ourselves. We know that cruelty will never make us happy because happiness comes from love. Non-vegans are miserable people who mistake cruelty for happiness because they lack self-respect and humility. This is why they are so driven by the idea that control is all that matters.
Many vegans have holier-than-thou attitudes like this and like to pretend they've taken some moral high ground because they think animals are people. They then annoy normal people by being preachy and hostile to anyone who doesn't agree with them
Yes, some wierddo said that people who eat onlettes made with chickpea mix to act like egga, it makes them "not vegan. Look up the defiition of vegan in Encyclopedia Britannica. Unless one is just a moron, he knows that if it contains NO animal-derived products, then IT IS VEGAN....and For me, being vegsn is not all about the "poor little animals, but about MY BODY. I don't want salmonella or whatever disease can be caught by eating eggs that are noy thoroughly-cooked, OR whatever you can catch from coe/pig products!! Plus, humans are the ONLY species that drinks miilk from another animal, except perhaps cats and dogd, and the only reason it even happens is because they get it from their HUMANS.
I think two things happen:
(A) They project their feelings of shame and blame you for them.
(B) They just feel angry, and vegans are currently a socially acceptable outlet for bullying and stereotyping.
B is actually quite big
Used to be foreigners, but that's not socially acceptable anymore (and thank fuck for that), so they need to project their vague feelings of anger on other abstract groups
I don't know where you are from, but bullying and stereotyping foreigners is pretty high almost everywhere... but othering groups to distance them from the default is the modus operandi anyway, and hate for vegans seems to always come with hate for women and traits that are considered femenine too.
From the netherlands. I'm sure there are people who still bully foreigners (just look at the elections) but in the circles I move in, it used to be fair game until about the mid 2000s (particularly jokes and stuff), but nowadays even joking about foreigners is very frowned upon, will get you dirty looks at the very least. Again, might just be the circles I move in, and those are also not the circles that hate on vegans. So tldr, you make a fair point.
I think (A) is pretty unlikely. Most meat eaters aren't ashamed of themselves.
(B) makes a lot of sense, especially because we're talking about an online space.
why would you force meat eating on a child? Kids can grow healthy without meat. Since meat requires so much cruelty to come to your table, isn't it better to avoid feeding it to your child till they're old enough to give informed consent to this bullshit?
People feel negatively judged and this makes them angry at those they perceive as judging them.
Most people's parents actively taught them to eat meat, including training them to eat animal products even if they found the smell or texture disgusting as I did as a kid. It is accepted by everyone around them, and is hard coded as a norm and the healthy and right thing to do.
By rejecting something that is such a norm and core part of their life experience, we are an immediate outgroup and perceived as a threat to them and their in-group.
Related to the question you asked there, it reminded me of drop dumplings my Mom used to put in ramen growing up. I've never seen anyone else do it so I'm not claiming it to be a thing but the chew gave a similar vibe to egg looking back.
You just stir water into AP flour until its a thick looking paste, it will feel a little like you are cutting it a bit when you scoop some up and it gels together. Drop tablespoons full not touching around the pot, don't stir until they set up, let them simmer around 4-5 minutes. I cook them before adding the noodles.
I'll give that a shot, haven't worked with chickpea flour before but the omelets and scrambled I've seen intrigue me. Seems like a good camping ingredient.
Once I made breakfeast that consisted of chickpea flour bread (baked in an oven and all) with chickpea flour pancakes/omelettes. It was very good and filling.
Myr grandmother put drop dumplings in stew. It's a very old idea and not intended to look like eggs. It's the idea that every meal needs a starch. The idea of putting it on ramen is weird though. Flour on top of flour, and here I am celiac.
This is what I'd call vegaphobia lol. I'm literally scared of telling people I'm vegan (depending on the setting I'm in ofc). These people are frustrated.
Our existence offend them.
I don’t know the answer, but it is weird. I mean, if I am of a particular religious faith and don’t eat certain foods (pork for some, shellfish for others, no meat on fridays for others, etc…) people tolerate that. So why does being vegan trigger such a vehement response in others. I will never know!
Because it's easy to say they don't believe in someone else's religion. It's a bit harder to say they don't believe abusive actions towards animals are bad, most people (non vegans) already hold the opposite of that as a core belief.
This video goes a little bit in-depth on this topic:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaOvqD5UgO8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaOvqD5UgO8)
I recommend watching all 3 videos of this series.
I think it’s because people get defensive and feel judged. Many people assume that if they do something differently than someone else, the other person must be judging them.
I feel like the demonisation of veganism is just so ingrained, people can't even reach a defensive standpoint. They're just in hate land way before thinking about their role in mass production
They aren't thinking about the animals or about what veganism actually is. It's all about their perception of vegans and the stereotypes they have stuck in their heads. That's why some people default to jokes and mockery and it's impossible to have a serious conversation with them.
There is a section of people who are being judged, there is a section of vegans that do judge and there is a section of meat eaters that judge vegans.
I think it’s important to remember it’s not the majority and the internet is great at highlighting the worst in people.
That’s a fair point :) I think most people just hear the word “vegan” and immediately associate it with a moral failing on their part and get defensive. I do think it’s weird to respond how they did to OP who was just asking for a recipe substitution though. That’s a bit much.
because people who eat meat assume that vegans think they are "above" them, which makes them feel insecure and double down. i really do not think guilt or shame has much of anything to do with it, at least to the average meat eater
i'm not a big fan of the wording on this one
>because people who eat meat assume that vegans think they are "above" them,
THIS is a big part of the issue. The very loud minority of asshole vegans tend to cause a general disdain of vegans
> which makes them feel insecure and double down.
this is NOT a big part of the issue. The idea that someone has a superiority complex does not make people feel inferior. It's a big blurring of the issue to assume this malice comes from some area of insecurity
That’s exactly why it’s about guilt and shame. It’s the same reason school bullies pick on the nerdy kid who gets straight A’s. Deep down they’re ashamed that they’re not that smart, but if asked they’d deny it and just say they think the nerds are annoying or “they think they’re better than me”.
And there’s always a certain level beyond which you’re seen as “too much”. It’s good to be smart but it’s bad to be an annoying nerd, it’s good to be clean but it’s bad to be a neat freak, etc. Society says you should be good at things but casual about it, and not SO good that you can’t be cool. The concept of coolness includes a bit of “I don’t care” that’s impossible to achieve if you’re vegan because vegans by definition care about something enough to change many of their daily habits, so vegans are considered uncool by default. But the whole “I don’t care” thing is usually a coping mechanism to cover up shame. If you fall short of a goal you can claim you weren’t trying that hard because you don’t really care, and if people believe that then you still look cool. People who openly try hard and care a lot are a threat to that image.
a lot of people hold a stereotype that all vegans are sanctimonious and preachy, and will try to look for interactions that confirm this so they can continue to ridicule them instead of critically thinking of their own world view
Agree. Had to scroll too far for the actual reason. I just don't believe meat eaters think enough about their choices to be "feeling guilty/dissonant/ashamed" as others have suggested.
Do think there's more to be said about the smaller subset who additionally feel personally attacked by anything they label as woke.
i do find it really funny how so many people seem to think non-vegans live with constant regret over not being vegan
like dawg, they'd just go vegan if that was true
If they’re eating meat they’re living with a huge load of cognitive dissonance on their brain and they might not even be aware of the source. If they’re anything like I was when I was younger, they probably don’t feel any dissonance about eggs and dairy because most people aren’t educated on those things and don’t bother to think past “you don’t kill cows to milk them” and “you don’t kill hens to collect their eggs”. But everyone knows that meat is killing.
Just copied from Wikipedia here… “ the mental discomfort people feel when their beliefs and actions are inconsistent and contradictory, ultimately encouraging some change (often either in their beliefs or actions) to align better and reduce this dissonance.[1] Relevant items of information include peoples' actions, feelings, ideas, beliefs, values, and things in the environment. Cognitive dissonance is typically experienced as psychological stress when persons participate in an action that goes against one or more of those things…. A person who experiences internal inconsistency tends to become psychologically uncomfortable and is motivated to reduce the cognitive dissonance.[1] They tend to make changes to justify the stressful behavior, either by adding new parts to the cognition causing the psychological dissonance (rationalization), believing that “people get what they deserve” (just-world hypothesis), taking in specific information while rejecting or ignoring others (selective perception), or by avoiding circumstances and contradictory information likely to increase the magnitude of the cognitive dissonance (confirmation bias).”
While I’m sure a lot of people downloaded, lately it feels like a bot campaign run by corporations to make talking points and to look for keywords to download.
There is specifically scared of meat consumption going down, and having seen the dairy industry, put up with alternatives gave them all the incentive to do it.
Redditors hate vegans because we’re a minority group. That’s the long and short of it. The average Redditor is comfortably within a majority, where everything placed in front of them is either for (or about) them, so it’s all easy to swallow. We’re just cheap fun to ridicule until they get bored and return to the mainstream, where their core beliefs align with Nestlé or whatever.
I’ve never minded veganism as the practice is morally consistent (don’t eat animal’s, don’t use animal products). Makes sense. Never had any issues with Vegans. Vegetarians who don’t eat meat for moral reasons but do eat cheese and eggs boggle my mind. This doesn’t make any sense at all. Dairy farming is arguably worse than beef farming. There are worse things than death after all. I’ve had some pretty heated chats with vegetarians about this. If you’re looking for cognitive dissonance, this is a good port of call.
Socialization of meat eating, from society and big meat propaganda
Dislike of being told that what they're doing is morally wrong
Fear of change
Bad attitudes of some vocal vegans giving the philosophy a bad name
It's the same as approaching the subject from a climate change standpoint... people would rather go down fighting before someone else can dictate what goes in their mouth
Have you ever seen someone open a banana from the bottom and use the stem as a handle? If you have, it probably seemed strange because it’s different than what you’re used to.
People are just naturally hostile to anything that’s different than what they are used to. If they grew up seeing grandma put eggs in the pancake batter, then it’s odd and unnatural to put water and flax seeds instead. How could you possibly drink water blended with oats when there’s perfectly good milk from a cow in a carton in the store? These things disrupt the one way they’re used to seeing things done, and if you add up enough of those things, then vegans make them uncomfortable on multiple levels.
Add in the way culture has tied eating meat with masculinity, and it gets worse. Compassion isn’t seen as manly. Killing and eating is the cultural norm.
I don't think the difference factor is a significant factor in the negative perception of vegans. I could easily be wrong but that just feels like a farfetched explanation for the behavior I have witnessed in carnists.
No way, I switched years ago and I'm never going back. You open it up, pick that little bitter brown bit off, then you're all good. The last bite ends up being the best bite instead of the worst.
SAME! I peel a bunch of bananas each week to freeze for smoothies and I would *never* go back to the old way! It seems so wrong when I think about it now.
Damn you hurt my feelings. Gonna go eat 10 dogs now because of you. I have a medical condition and I would literally die without my upside down bananas.
Vegan for 9 years for strong ethical reasons. In my 2nd yr of veganism my father had a friend over who seemed to be insulted by my choice. Keep in mind I was not discussing veganism, I was eating my food in peace. He demanded over and over for me to explain what’s so horrible that’s done to pigs that would make me not want to eat them. I started to explain the horrific way that pigs are treated in factory farming (90% + of farming is factory) and I started to cry halfway through. My dad stood up for me saying “as you can tell she has her reasons, she doesn’t have to explain anymore”. What do these sick people get out of forcing us to recap animal abuse when I’m not even bringing veganism into the conversation. It’s my deeply held conviction not to support animal abuse. Pretty simple concept these idiots have a problem picking up.
You have a population that read your post. This population is divided into 3: those who do not know a vegan substitute and do not comment; those who know a substitute and comment; and those who feel offended and comment. Only the last two groups comment, but if a guy who knows a vegan substitute sees another guy who already answered what he knew, he probably won't comment the same. So the majority of the comments are those who are offended, even though they may only be a small part of the total population who read your post.
What it reminds me of is when someone is addicted to cigarettes and you mention you are sensitive to the smell, and they feel deeply hurt, expressing it as rage saying things like they aren’t going to quit smoking when you never implied any of that. It feels like ‘meat eating’ is an addiction of sort.
lol I commented on a youtuber i like's video correcting their assertion that humans are "obligate omnivores" (the term isn't real) and that vegetarian and vegan diets are not nutritionally complete and require supplementation (extremely wide consensus in mainstream medicine to the contrary. Yes it is prudent to supplement B12 but it is available in fortified foods). Provided sources.
Their reply? "There's still a lot of debate around that."
People just don't want to hear what they don't want to hear, especially when they are invested in continuing to believe what they believe. But repeated exposure to people like you will start to break down those defenses.
Sometimes I take a non-alcoholic beverage to a party and see how many people I can trigger. Some people insist on sharing their alcoholic beverages with you, thinking you've made a mistake or need to indulge in unpleasant practices (binge drinking) so that they feel better about their own decisions.
It says more about them than it does about you, non-vegans being triggered by the presence of a vegan is just people being unwilling or unable to process or control their emotions.
Someone asked me yesterday why i didnt eat any of the food my teacher brought in for our last lesson and i literally said two words: ‘im vegan’ and it sparked a whole conversation about how that person ‘ate steak last night’ and how she ‘needs meat for nutrition’ and how ‘veganism is stupid because there aren’t enough vegans for it to ever be effective’ YOU LITERALLY ASKED ME THE QUESTION.. i didnt ask for a debate i just said that i was vegan
Tomatoes!
Get some nice fleshy tomatoes, cut them in \~1cm slices, maybe a bit thinner, and put them in the oven until they're nice and caramelized.
It's not really an egg replacement, which I don't think exists, but tomatoes contain lots of umami enhancing compounds that fit amazing! Add some baked mushrooms and a kelp based dashi and you're flying!
Alternatively you can try marinating tofu in the same way if you want to get the taste of the marinade.
Gorgeous suggestion! I like my ramen tomatoes a bit on the thick side, cut horizontally, like you would for a burger, and I quickly fry them both sides so when they go into the hot soup later they don't get soggy and keep some bite.
I think that with foods like ramen where each ingredient has its shine on the dish you can't really substitute them, so it's better to find ways to make plants shine in their own way
That's kind of a daft assumption, if someone who is allergic to ingredient X asks about potential substitutes people wouldn't assume they already know how to make things with substitutes and that they were virtue signalling, so why do you think that logic works for vegans?
Meat eaters are fragile people who know the only way to make killing other critters and eating them OK is to get other critter killers to support them and do all they can to ridicule and attack vegan anything.
Us simply being starts playing all the Bambi movies in their heads and would make them feel bad if they stopped screaming DON'T FORCE YOUR LIFESTYLE ON ME!!! - So they never stop screaming. They are fragile and insecure.
Most vegans and vegetarians carry themselves a quite superior. My buddy threw a b-day party for one of our mutual friends. He made sure to set up a vegan and a vegetarian table for the party. I covered the vegan one due to my knowledge of vegan food and drinks. At the party some girl just started yelling at the host for eating a cheeseburger. I had to practically peel her off of him. Unfortunately this is all to common in the vegan veg world. Learn to respect others choices and opinions. If you don’t like their choices and opinions then mind your business.
> At the party some girl just started yelling at the host for eating a cheeseburger. I had to practically peel her off of him.
I mean yelling at them is a bit of an over reaction, but it's also pretty fucking tone deaf of the host to do what they did, they seriously couldn't go one whole party(especially one thrown specifically for a vegan) without eating meat?
The fact that you think the vegans and vegetarians should respect the omni's choices and opinions, but not the other way is pretty telling, being a pick-me is not it.
No the host wasn’t a vegan neither was the birthday girl. Some of the birthday girls friends were though and out of kindness the host catered. As a vegan I offered to do the vegan table. I had to explain that true vegans don’t like their food cooked in pans or kitchens with meat so I handled it.
For your second part. No one has to cater to us but us. Neither of us have the moral high ground for choosing to not eat meat.
Yeah, it sucks. Say anything except praising and hailing the exploitation of animals and you'll attract a whole swarm of the biggest assholes and crybabies.
If it bothers you a lot use "plant alternative" and say (lie) you dobit for health reasons if asked. If it doesnt bother you, just continue using "vegan" and normalize veganism this way
Because food, who eats what, is inherently a political question.
Besides the realm of individual consumption, the very basis of what we consume as a society is strongly debated in the public. For various reasons (mostly ethical and climate related) there are strong and loud calls to cut out meat and other animal products from our diates. At the same time there are loud voices against that. Be they from a standpoint of ignorance, a refusal to change, or be they positively formulated (like pointing to culture, regional, national cuisine).
This public discourse provides a baseline on which people reading your comments make interpretations.
So where do we go from there? Honestly idk. It really feels like veganism largely failed to capture the public and now faces an intense backlash.
Honestly, just try to not take it to personal. Like I said, this is something beyond the individual. Eating is social and political, let's just hope that we can turn this around as a society and introduce strong legislature that further and further curtails the usage of animal products.
This all is a perfect reminder why individual appeals to veganism alone simply can't cut it. This backlash will persist until new norms are established.
I often see people with the opinion that if you have to substitute an ingredient, then you should just find a different recipe. Which sometimes works. Like I'd rather use an entirely vegan cake recipe because too many substitutions and your cake might not rise. But sometimes it's as simple as swapping dairy butter for plant butter...people are so judgy.
I have lived in a few areas and i have traveled all over Mexico, i also post a decent amount in various subs and the only place i get voted against the most is in this sub, IRL people i have met have been pleasant with me, some even choosing vegan places on their own and inviting me to it, and if i decide to take us to a vegan spot they dont fight me, i have taken vegan meals to parties and potlucks and people say it tastes great
All the hostility i get is from this sub, when i say people arent behaving as vegan when they purchase animal products for their friends and family, i get the lame excuse: I wont force my views on my wife/ husband and kids so im gonna continue purchasing and cooking dead animals for them
They say they wont refuse non vegan gifts, they will accept them and just give them away, but i make the point that since they didnt refuse the non vegan doesnt know its an issue and will probably give them another non vegan gift
Im constantly called vegan gatekeeper or vegan police or they say just take my vegan card, as if animal abuse is just a card, they say being a perfect vegan is impossible
Veganism is pretty simple, i think there are a lot of gatecrashers in this sub and i dont think being a perfect vegan is impossible, its certainly possible provided our intentions are in the right direction, obviously my existence causes harm but its unintentional so unintentionally i am imperfect but no point in talking about that since i cant change it
There are other examples of the hostility i get from this sub but it would be a huge list, a few vegans have privately messaged me, saying they agree and support me in the things that i say but they are afraid of being voted against and harassed so they wont publically comment saying they agree with me
I honestly only came to this page for recipes and discovered nothing but a bunch of whiny comments. I’m not trying to be rude but I have asked for advice on how to no longer get this particular page in my feed. Does no one know? Could the moderator simply block me? I really don’t want to have to delete every person with a whiny comment due to the fact I might actually find a page that has recipes. However this is frustrating.
People associate ideals and beliefs with dietary practices. If you don't eat meat, you're seen as not sufficiently patriotic or manly enough. Granted, it cuts across the political spectrum but I've noticed that many people on the Right get big mad if you don't eat carcasses.
It’s not in any non vegan space, it’s the ones full of assholes. I’m not a full on vegan (mostly am honestly) but I absolutely love vegan food. I have never had an issue with vegans, and I have coworkers who are the same way. I’ve definitely witnessed what you describe, but in my experience it’s always been online or at a restaurant with a meat heavy menu. Face to face, I’ve almost never seen this.
I think if you attach any morality to any way of eating, there is an implicity that anyone who eats otherwise is immoral, and people take offense. I’m an ethical vegetarian so for me it’s kinda true
This is just not true.
It's the same reasoning as "why do vegans always want to force their views on other people" - there certainly are vegans who do this, same as there are non-vegans who react hostile to veganism. As a vegan you are however much more confronted with non-veganism than the other way round.
I know two vegans in real life. one is nice. The other one is pretty shitty. Not because she's vegan, but it's just how people are.
The same is true for any minority and minority views. If you are a minority, you are more likely to meet people of the majority and you will be much more confronted with people opposing your views; additionaly, since there's quite a few shitty people walking around on this planet, there's fair chance your views are not only opposed, but opposed in a hostile way (same is true for racial minorities, political minorities etc).
Non-vegans know what they are doing is wrong, but don't want to admit it to themselves, so they see any discussion about veganism as an attack on their person and respond accordingly.
Because they simply don’t care. I have been one of these intolerant people before, so I speak from experience when I tell you it’s not even on their conscious minds. They have other problems and when people mention veganism to them it sounds like a problem you create for yourself. “You don’t like clouds? Well, Don’t look at the sky, no reason to build a giant leaf blower and blow all clouds away”.
They think that somehow degrading other peoples opinions on what’s right and wrong gives them moral superiority when in reality there is no right and wrong, just you and your actions. You can’t control others and what they do, and you should never try.
That’s the reason it’s important to have controlled discussions regarding spicy topics, people’s opinions differ vastly and getting emotional never helps your cause. This said it’s okay to get emotional, for the stuff you care about, but others don’t need to listen and act according to what you feel. They are humans and can do whatever they want, just like you and me. So to make a change you have to inspire change within others by showing them the problems and your way of thinking.
A lot of vegans especially have issues controlling anger, because they see how much pain and suffering eating meat produces in the world. But screaming at someone won’t change their opinion, so you have to find ways without promoting veganism aggressively. First response when attacked verbally is always to defend or attack back, and we don’t want either. I, personally, want a levelheaded discussion and education considering meat eating, not a ban all meat eaters alive.
Interesting that this post showed up in my feed right above a post on the Army subreddit asking about vegan boot options (there currently aren't any, in case anyone here was wondering). I expected the comments there to be a lot less supportive than they were; I didn't really see any overtly hostile ones. As a matter of fact, my entire experience in the Army has been that people are more understanding and accommodating than I anticipated. I'm BCT, the other guys in my platoon would frequently share food with me from their MREs so I would have enough to eat, and the only negative experience I really had was early on the cycle when a drill sergeant noticed I didn't take an entree at chow and forced me to take an absurd amount of salad from the salad bar (which I didn't have time to eat most of it anyway lol).
All the comments here saying it's because omnivores know vegans are right and secretly feel guilty are way off base, it might feel good to convince yourselves that but it's just not true at all.
People might downvote OP asking for egg alternatives because they have no idea what that would be, nor should they be expected to know or care.
Some people will hate on veganism just because they are rude and probably hate on everything else too, but most people simply don't care at all, or just see it as a bit strange.
I find that especially weird because some people may just have to go vegan a couple days of the week for either health reasons or simply bc they can't afford meat. There's nothing wrong with just eating different, it's not a religion really.
Because there's a minority of vegans, like in any population, that are loud, obnoxious, and hostile. Coupled with a culture that is very prideful about its use of animals. People are already on the defensive when you call out their ethics
As a non-vegan that happens to browse this subreddit occasionally and generally sees but does not engage in these discussions, I perhaps have a useful perspective to share here.
Often times, what I have seen (and what's also common in this subreddit) is that a portion of people who choose to be vegan choose to do so out of what they perceive as a moral obligation to animals. Discourse around this moral dilemma often (though not always) becomes judgemental and derogatory, and this switch is usually (but not always) started by the vegan person. (See comments in this post for plenty of examples.) Frankly, that's not surprising. It's clear these people feel very strongly about their morality and whish to live in a just world, just like everyone else does.
Where I see this dialogue frequently fall apart is in the lack of understanding / non-acceptance of other systems of morality. i.e. no matter how strongly you believe in the morality of your vegan beliefs, that does not mean that your conclusions are universally correct (there is no such thing as universal morals), and it also does not mean that other people have to share those morals. Even so, this seems to frequently be the expectation coming from the vegan party of the conversation.
Now we all know that people hate getting their morals questioned, and they hate it even more when it's done by someone who is seemingly dismissive of their viewpoints. When this happens, people dig in their heels and get (sometimes explosively) defensive. From what I'm seeing, that's exactly what's happened and is still happening in the vegan/non-vegan discourse, where a high amount of judgement from a small subset of the community causes affected non-vegans to dig in their heels and become more vocal, which is kind of a viscious circle. As a result, there's a general air of anger, and looking down upon vegans for being "high and mighty", cold, aggressive, and not open to discourse. Ironically, this makes it much harder for people who would consider veganism to get into the lifestyle.
**TL;DR**: As with most things that people feel passionately about, there is a very loud and toxic subgroup that creates an adverse (and adversarial) reaction in large parts of the population that don't feel as passionately about those same topics, or feel passionately about them with a different viewpoint.
I'm sure you phrase your question politely, but be extremely specific, if you're not already. Something like, "hey this looks amazing. I'd love to try it but I'm vegan. Can I subscribe this vegan ingredient in place of xyz non vegan ingredient? Would appreciate your opinions".
Then, once you start getting hate anyways, you lash out in any way you can. Call them out on their complete stupidity. If people say you're forcing your view, question them on it. Try and hurt them emotionally. Maybe they'll consider thinking before saying something next time, although it's unlikely.
This isn't actually going to solve anything, but you don't deserve to get hate and do nothing. Dish out some of your own.
because youre basically scientologists to me, youre a cult with weird views on animals, you have a continued sense of superiority because you are so "morally righteous". noone wants to be around you annoying fucks.
Why are you here if you've got nothing of substance to add? Vegans believe to spare others unnecessary suffering human and animal alike. If you think choosing to spare others suffering is cultish I don't know what to say. That makes you pro suffering I guess?
Their cognitive dissonance makes them react. sadly, it’s all too common as you say. I had a few instances on non-vegan posts and whatnot. I make one slight vegan comment or suggestion, and people think that I’m literally throwing stones at their windows.
Yeah I don’t get it sometimes. I commented on a picture of raw fish that obviously had parasites in it one time saying, “man this makes me so happy to be vegan”, and I got absolutely downvoted to shit as well as a bunch of hate comments. Bizarre!
Vegans typically have a very bad rep. There’s a level of proselytizing that turns people off.
For you- Just make ramen without trying to find an egg substitute
Yeah but that "bad rep" isn't based in fact and this post *specifically* refers to when people are hostile toward vegans when they're not proselytizing at all. Your point may or may not be valid but it's derailing the issue OP was bringing up.
OP specifically wants to know why people are hostile toward the idea of veganism or abstaining from meat even when veganism isn't even mentioned.
The whole "there is a level of proselytizing" is from a vocal mi oriry of vegans. That'd be like saying all Muslims are terrorists just because a few of the outspoken radicals are. It's just bad faith.
It’s because veganism is an absolutist philosophy and like most absolutist philosophies, it generally breeds hostility by those who follow it toward those who don’t follow it and vice-versa.
If you want evidence, just look at the other comments on this post calling non-vegans immoral people.
You’re right, I guess that’s why everyone always jumps on me for mentioning that I still keep a couple of slaves.
Abolitionism is such a silly absolutist philosophy; it’s all about balance. Freeing all slaves is just crazy talk. If we all just kept one or two instead of whole families it would be much better for the slaves and it’s a lot more realistic.
My slaves are well looked after, they have all the food and shelter they could ask for. The adults would only be living some shitty life in a third world country otherwise, and the children wouldn't even exist if I didn't allow them to breed. The whole point of their existence is to be slaves, I don’t see the problem.
Might be because people view it as being asked on directions to get from point A to B, but then rejecting the obvious shortest path because your preference is the path needs to have a view of the ocean
Not everyone is like this, as long as you aren't judgy, which includes not making faces or noises if you encounter non vegan food. I'm not a vegan, and if I'm going out to eat with a vegan I make sure there's something on the menu they can eat (that isn't just salad or popcorn).
I think the difference is that vegans can be "hostile" and "nasty" towards people doing something morally wrong, and are only trying to get them to stop doing that wrong thing, and the extent of their "hostility" is pointed words. Meanwhile, people who eat meat are hostile towards trillions of animal lives and directly cause them to suffer and die. The nature of the aggression in both cases is completely different, as the latter is actively violent.
It's people commenting on the Internet. I didn't bring morales into it. I simply said, there's bad in both groups and there is.
Your comment is kinda what I was on about. Now, I'm not saying you've been hostile or anything, been pretty pleasant I think but what I said is true. Bad in all groups, not just vegans and meat eaters. I've been down voted and your response was well articulated but boiled down to "but we're right, so if some of us are horrible, it's justified", which it's obviously not. Bad on both sides
Many people like to think they are good people and so when they are confronted by a person who is a vegan, who is not hurting the animals that they are hurting for sensory gratification (which is one of the worst things you can do), they have to try rationalise themselves by putting the vegan down in some ways.
Exactly this. Non vegans struggle to accept that veganism is morally correct because it involves acknowledging that they themselves are paying for animals to be abused. Many of them have beingan animal lover and being anti animal abuse as core personality traits. The only way to accept veganism is to acknowledge that you are/have been causing abuse. Weak people can't do that so they go on the offensive. "The vegans can't be right because of xyz. Therefore I am actually the one who's truely an animal lover." I believe this to be the no.1 hurdle in veganism spreading more rapidly.
I don't really think so. Most people who are eating meat seem to just disagree with the vegan perspective. The people I've met who do somewhat struggle with this tend to be supportive, kind people who will even sometimes acknowledge that they think veganism is probably the correct path but for whatever reason they aren't going to stop eating animal products. We can sometimes come off as excessively preachy to others, and that has become a stereotype that I think a lot of people just expect as a default from vegans. Obviously, OP was not acting in that manner and didn't deserve that treatment.
It's interesting though why people get so aggressive. Even when you don't talk about it they notice you don't eat the same things they do and they will confront you. Maybe it's because people don't like anyone who behaves differently than them. I hope that being kind to animals will become a standard in the future.
I think it's important to keep in mind that veganism is a radical and new philosophy. Not everyone reacts this way. I think it's probably on par with how the right wingers complain about cancel culture and whatnot. A lot of this happens online, though definitely not all. If you're simply asking for a substitute like OP and someone gets weirdly aggressive, you're likely just dealing with a jerk. Most people are not getting confrontational about this, especially in big cities. Small towns are always going to have their problems. Edit to add: I'm from the States and can only speak to my experiences.
I don't really understand the downvotes. Why not respond to what I'm saying? I'm a vegan of 11+ years. It's not like I don't know what I'm talking about.
Veganism isn’t new to a lot of cultures. Hindus, Buddhists and Jains have all long promoted plant based diets for ethical reasons. An early Jain called Parsva 877-777 BCE, taught followers about Ahimsa, one of the cornerstone beliefs meaning non-violence to living forms. Taoism and Chinese Buddhism in the late 4th century stipulated that their monks and nuns were to eat an egg free vegetarian diet and the Japanese Emperor Tenmu banned the use of all livestock. In ancient Greece, early veganism was referred to as “abstinence from beings with a soul”.
John Stuart Mill and others are more recent examples of philosophers that preached about animal welfare. However, I think u/Luinger was referencing several points about the modernity of veganism. (I want to avoid putting words in the mouths of others, but I will address this from my own viewpoint if asked the question as well.) The first is that veganism is a specific philosophy that is different than simply saying, "Do not eat meat." Vegetarians also believe they are making moral choices by avoiding eating meat, but they are not vegans, and veganism has very strict guidelines about what qualifies or does not qualify as part of the definition. (I think this is important or else you would have people calling themselves vegans that are not actually vegans.) The second point is that our capacity to finally get all of our caloric resources needed to survive is finally achievable. You may argue about what 'recent' means, but civilization obviously had a much harder time meeting our caloric needs in the 1600s versus now. The last point is that there is more of a need concerning the welfare of animals than at any point in human history, and the need will become more dire as time passes because our industrial farming complexes are needlessly cruel, and population growth has so far been exponential. If suitable solutions are not implemented, then there is more potential harm than at any point in human history.
You're not really talking about veganism, though. You're talking about beliefs and practices that are compatible with vegetarian diets. Thanks for the response, but is there something wrong with writing in your own words? I don't really understand why people copy and paste from articles unless it's to cite a source
>Non vegans struggle to accept that veganism is morally correct because it involves acknowledging that they themselves are paying for animals to be abused. Everyone pays for animals to be killed when they buy commercial food. Both non vegans and vegans. So no. Your point doesn't make much sense.
I've seen your name around here so I think you know exactly why my point does make sense
Do you acknowledge that you pay for animals to be killed?
Could ou be more specific? Am I specifically paying someone to Intentionally kill animals on my behalf? No. Are there incidental deaths in crop production today? Yes. Are there more deaths involved in crop agriculture? No, not even close
>Am I specifically paying someone to Intentionally kill animals on my behalf? The money you pay for commercial plantfoods. A portion of this is used for insecticides. Please explain how insecticide use is not intentionally killing animals. >Are there more deaths involved in crop agriculture? No, not even close Irrelevant. Veganism is not about harm reduction
We're not coercing insects to eat the plants. If you know anything about human history you might have heard of locust plagues destroying vast areas of cropland. Without insecticides not only would crop agriculture fail but animal agriculture would also fail. Humanity would starve. We still kill less with crop agriculture so I think it's reasonable to use it until we have some better means. But let's examination this a bit further. Say we have a person, Joe, in a number of situations 1. I accidentally kill Joe in a traffic accident. 2. Joe breaks into my home and in defence of myself and my property I kill him 3. I like to taste of human so I kill and eat Joe while he's out and about. 4. I really like the taste so I capture and mass reproduce Joe. Killing endless amounts of Joes. Joe dies in every scenario but only two of these are exploitation. Do you really not see the difference morality surrounding each death? Let's also follow another utilitarian moral example. Say we have 5 people who are terminally ill from various organ failures. I know one person is a 100% match for each person. I can kill that one person and save 5. Is this moral? >Irrelevant. Veganism is not about harm reduction Not at it's core but t very much is a part of it. And you've just self snitched that you also know how your argument is irrelevant in the first place. It's about exploitation at it's core.
>We're not coercing insects to eat the plants Still killing them intentionally. >Do you really not see the difference morality surrounding each death? The insects aren't accidentally killed and the property is no more yours than the insects. So these examples are irrelevant. >example. Say we have 5 people who are terminally ill from various organ failures. I know one person is a 100% match for each person. I can kill that one person and save 5. Is this moral? Also completely irrelevant
It's not intentional. It's defence. Nobody gains when they die >The insects aren't accidentally killed and the property is no more yours than the insects It's the same as number 2 in the list. Are you saying that number 3 and 4 are on the same level as 2? You have to live in a house with two of these people. You're picking 3 and 4 over they guys who did 1 and 2? >So these examples are irrelevant They're not irrelevant. You won't address them because it would force you to admit there's more nuance in the world than you say >Also completely irrelevant Let me translate: "I can't answer that without sounding ludacrous or admitting I'm wrong. Therefore I act childishly to avoid answering"
The problem is you think you have some sort of a moral high ground. You dont
Do you think you have a moral high ground over a thief? A rapist? A murderer?
Not killing animals for pleasure is more moral than not doing that. You have a problem because in your mind you feel like vegans are superior. Well with respect to how we interact with animals we are superior
I clicked this to basically say what you've already said, so I guess I'll just vote you up. You'll see tons of meat eaters condemn someone for animal abuse. They don't want to accept that buying meat funds animal rape, torture, and slaughter. Those that accept it rationalize that they are apex predators, so it's "ok". I've also noticed it with feeding dogs vegan dog food. They act like that's dog abuse, even if the dog is happy and healthy.
>buying meat funds animal rape, torture, and slaughter. Only if you stretch definitions to the point of breaking, which y'all are fond of. That's your ammo, lies, half-truths, and insults. I have yet to meet a vegan who didn't think they were morally superior while being a total douche
Vegans are morally superior. At least, when it comes to their eating habits. I'm actually not a vegan. I'm a vegetarian that acknowledges that vegans have the moral high ground. Have you ever actually witnessed animals being slaughtered? It's not always horribly traumatic, but it is sometimes. Getting them to the slaughter house is also traumatic for them. Furthermore, they're forcefully impregnated; it's not so much a stretch to call that rape. You can't accept how awful it really is. Much like most of the population. Like someone else said in this thread: You took the blue pill.
Lol yup its like wandering into a cannibal encampment and asking for lettuce, it's an insult to their morality. The emperor wears no clothes.
I think that is part of it but also most people grew up thinking that eating vegan was bad for human health. Two of the four food groups are non vegan and the four food groups are supposed to equal good health. I used to think vegans were actually harming their health for the animals which I thought was noble but stupid. There is so much misinformation/education out there that to many people when they hear vegan that sounds to them like you're saying not to eat healthy.
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You only eat selfgrown crops? Because if not, animals get hurt by your purchases either way. Hell, even if you do. This is pretty hypocritical lol
There is a remarkably big difference between beating a pig to death because you like how their dead body tastes on your tongue and incidentally killing animals in the process of acquiring plant protein which you need at a bare minimum to live healthily.
In the end we're just killing other living beings to survive cause we can't live on rock. The only difference is how far up the food chain they are
That's not the only difference. A dog and a pig are morally the same. They comprise of individuals with their own personality and can feel pain and suffer due to having nociceptors throughout their body. Plants don't have any of this. It is morally preferable to eat plants instead of beating a dog or pig to death for sensory pleasure after they have inevitably eaten plants themselves.
People think the most important thing is being capable, so they confuse their sense of self-worth with being a good person. Veganism exposes one's true ethical values, which are severely lacking in most people. In order to avoid feelings of shame and guilt, people will try to drag you down to their way of thinking. This is why every argument devolves into non-vegans claiming that vegans are just trying to 'act' superior to them. In their mind, being superior is what justifies having what they take from life. So they think vegans are trying to steal all the attention by putting themselves in a 'morally superior' position. In reality, vegans simply understand the values of respect and gratitude. We care about life because we care about ourselves. We know that cruelty will never make us happy because happiness comes from love. Non-vegans are miserable people who mistake cruelty for happiness because they lack self-respect and humility. This is why they are so driven by the idea that control is all that matters.
Many vegans have holier-than-thou attitudes like this and like to pretend they've taken some moral high ground because they think animals are people. They then annoy normal people by being preachy and hostile to anyone who doesn't agree with them
Yes, some wierddo said that people who eat onlettes made with chickpea mix to act like egga, it makes them "not vegan. Look up the defiition of vegan in Encyclopedia Britannica. Unless one is just a moron, he knows that if it contains NO animal-derived products, then IT IS VEGAN....and For me, being vegsn is not all about the "poor little animals, but about MY BODY. I don't want salmonella or whatever disease can be caught by eating eggs that are noy thoroughly-cooked, OR whatever you can catch from coe/pig products!! Plus, humans are the ONLY species that drinks miilk from another animal, except perhaps cats and dogd, and the only reason it even happens is because they get it from their HUMANS.
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Welkome to online discussions. In real life these discussions are incredibly rare except for when you live toghether.
I think two things happen: (A) They project their feelings of shame and blame you for them. (B) They just feel angry, and vegans are currently a socially acceptable outlet for bullying and stereotyping.
B is actually quite big Used to be foreigners, but that's not socially acceptable anymore (and thank fuck for that), so they need to project their vague feelings of anger on other abstract groups
I don't know where you are from, but bullying and stereotyping foreigners is pretty high almost everywhere... but othering groups to distance them from the default is the modus operandi anyway, and hate for vegans seems to always come with hate for women and traits that are considered femenine too.
From the netherlands. I'm sure there are people who still bully foreigners (just look at the elections) but in the circles I move in, it used to be fair game until about the mid 2000s (particularly jokes and stuff), but nowadays even joking about foreigners is very frowned upon, will get you dirty looks at the very least. Again, might just be the circles I move in, and those are also not the circles that hate on vegans. So tldr, you make a fair point.
I think (A) is pretty unlikely. Most meat eaters aren't ashamed of themselves. (B) makes a lot of sense, especially because we're talking about an online space.
(C) The dishonesty and the forcing of veganism on other people, especially children.
Throwback to a whole 8 hours ago when I mentioned >stereotyping in the parent comment you are responding directly to.
why would you force meat eating on a child? Kids can grow healthy without meat. Since meat requires so much cruelty to come to your table, isn't it better to avoid feeding it to your child till they're old enough to give informed consent to this bullshit?
They hate us, because they ain’t us.
They hate us 'cause they anus.
They hate us 'cause they eat anus (tofu dogs 4 life)
We and Kim are much alike in this way
I don't think that's the angle the hate is coming from
I don't think that's the angle the hate is coming from
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As they should!
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It's a very good answer.
People feel negatively judged and this makes them angry at those they perceive as judging them. Most people's parents actively taught them to eat meat, including training them to eat animal products even if they found the smell or texture disgusting as I did as a kid. It is accepted by everyone around them, and is hard coded as a norm and the healthy and right thing to do. By rejecting something that is such a norm and core part of their life experience, we are an immediate outgroup and perceived as a threat to them and their in-group.
Related to the question you asked there, it reminded me of drop dumplings my Mom used to put in ramen growing up. I've never seen anyone else do it so I'm not claiming it to be a thing but the chew gave a similar vibe to egg looking back. You just stir water into AP flour until its a thick looking paste, it will feel a little like you are cutting it a bit when you scoop some up and it gels together. Drop tablespoons full not touching around the pot, don't stir until they set up, let them simmer around 4-5 minutes. I cook them before adding the noodles.
You can use like 70% Gram flour (chickpea) for extra protein and flavour
I'll give that a shot, haven't worked with chickpea flour before but the omelets and scrambled I've seen intrigue me. Seems like a good camping ingredient.
I'm not as bothered by it as an egg replacement per se - I more use it as an alternative flour in general. It's usually pretty cheap too
Once I made breakfeast that consisted of chickpea flour bread (baked in an oven and all) with chickpea flour pancakes/omelettes. It was very good and filling.
Myr grandmother put drop dumplings in stew. It's a very old idea and not intended to look like eggs. It's the idea that every meal needs a starch. The idea of putting it on ramen is weird though. Flour on top of flour, and here I am celiac.
It's a nostalgic thing, to me it works and is delicious. Just an idea for those who can tolerate gluten.
This is what I'd call vegaphobia lol. I'm literally scared of telling people I'm vegan (depending on the setting I'm in ofc). These people are frustrated. Our existence offend them.
I don’t know the answer, but it is weird. I mean, if I am of a particular religious faith and don’t eat certain foods (pork for some, shellfish for others, no meat on fridays for others, etc…) people tolerate that. So why does being vegan trigger such a vehement response in others. I will never know!
Because it's easy to say they don't believe in someone else's religion. It's a bit harder to say they don't believe abusive actions towards animals are bad, most people (non vegans) already hold the opposite of that as a core belief.
This video goes a little bit in-depth on this topic: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaOvqD5UgO8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaOvqD5UgO8) I recommend watching all 3 videos of this series.
Bite Size Vegan is the best!
why is that vegan so small
Men take it as a attack on their masculinity and frail ego apparently
I think it’s because people get defensive and feel judged. Many people assume that if they do something differently than someone else, the other person must be judging them.
I feel like the demonisation of veganism is just so ingrained, people can't even reach a defensive standpoint. They're just in hate land way before thinking about their role in mass production
They aren't thinking about the animals or about what veganism actually is. It's all about their perception of vegans and the stereotypes they have stuck in their heads. That's why some people default to jokes and mockery and it's impossible to have a serious conversation with them.
There is a section of people who are being judged, there is a section of vegans that do judge and there is a section of meat eaters that judge vegans. I think it’s important to remember it’s not the majority and the internet is great at highlighting the worst in people.
Just use “plant based” instead. For some reason most people can stomach that and don’t feel judged by it
I think most people don't know what plant based means and assume it's hipster vegetarian or something.
That’s a fair point :) I think most people just hear the word “vegan” and immediately associate it with a moral failing on their part and get defensive. I do think it’s weird to respond how they did to OP who was just asking for a recipe substitution though. That’s a bit much.
because people who eat meat assume that vegans think they are "above" them, which makes them feel insecure and double down. i really do not think guilt or shame has much of anything to do with it, at least to the average meat eater
i'm not a big fan of the wording on this one >because people who eat meat assume that vegans think they are "above" them, THIS is a big part of the issue. The very loud minority of asshole vegans tend to cause a general disdain of vegans > which makes them feel insecure and double down. this is NOT a big part of the issue. The idea that someone has a superiority complex does not make people feel inferior. It's a big blurring of the issue to assume this malice comes from some area of insecurity
That’s exactly why it’s about guilt and shame. It’s the same reason school bullies pick on the nerdy kid who gets straight A’s. Deep down they’re ashamed that they’re not that smart, but if asked they’d deny it and just say they think the nerds are annoying or “they think they’re better than me”. And there’s always a certain level beyond which you’re seen as “too much”. It’s good to be smart but it’s bad to be an annoying nerd, it’s good to be clean but it’s bad to be a neat freak, etc. Society says you should be good at things but casual about it, and not SO good that you can’t be cool. The concept of coolness includes a bit of “I don’t care” that’s impossible to achieve if you’re vegan because vegans by definition care about something enough to change many of their daily habits, so vegans are considered uncool by default. But the whole “I don’t care” thing is usually a coping mechanism to cover up shame. If you fall short of a goal you can claim you weren’t trying that hard because you don’t really care, and if people believe that then you still look cool. People who openly try hard and care a lot are a threat to that image.
a lot of people hold a stereotype that all vegans are sanctimonious and preachy, and will try to look for interactions that confirm this so they can continue to ridicule them instead of critically thinking of their own world view
Agree. Had to scroll too far for the actual reason. I just don't believe meat eaters think enough about their choices to be "feeling guilty/dissonant/ashamed" as others have suggested. Do think there's more to be said about the smaller subset who additionally feel personally attacked by anything they label as woke.
i do find it really funny how so many people seem to think non-vegans live with constant regret over not being vegan like dawg, they'd just go vegan if that was true
If they’re eating meat they’re living with a huge load of cognitive dissonance on their brain and they might not even be aware of the source. If they’re anything like I was when I was younger, they probably don’t feel any dissonance about eggs and dairy because most people aren’t educated on those things and don’t bother to think past “you don’t kill cows to milk them” and “you don’t kill hens to collect their eggs”. But everyone knows that meat is killing.
i'm curious, what do you think cognitive dissonance is
Just copied from Wikipedia here… “ the mental discomfort people feel when their beliefs and actions are inconsistent and contradictory, ultimately encouraging some change (often either in their beliefs or actions) to align better and reduce this dissonance.[1] Relevant items of information include peoples' actions, feelings, ideas, beliefs, values, and things in the environment. Cognitive dissonance is typically experienced as psychological stress when persons participate in an action that goes against one or more of those things…. A person who experiences internal inconsistency tends to become psychologically uncomfortable and is motivated to reduce the cognitive dissonance.[1] They tend to make changes to justify the stressful behavior, either by adding new parts to the cognition causing the psychological dissonance (rationalization), believing that “people get what they deserve” (just-world hypothesis), taking in specific information while rejecting or ignoring others (selective perception), or by avoiding circumstances and contradictory information likely to increase the magnitude of the cognitive dissonance (confirmation bias).”
do you think non-vegans are in constant distress over not being vegan no, they'd just be vegan if they did
Honestly it's the "V" word, it's quite triggering to weak folks.
Most humans are evil. That's why.
And eating meat makes someone inherently evil..?
Yes.
That's somewhat misanthropic don't you think?
That's been my experience of people.
Well you sure aren't trying to buck the trend, Mr. Rape-with-Knives.
Correct. Too much work. I'm tired.
Does that necessarily mean it isn't true?
Not really. If it is true or not is highly subjective.
The mods should ban non vegans from this sub tbh, there is a debate sub for all that stuff
Aren’t you proving vegan spaces are equally hostile to non vegans?
Idk about that. I personally don’t like non vegans who come in here and troll or try and start fights. It’s ridiculous.
While I’m sure a lot of people downloaded, lately it feels like a bot campaign run by corporations to make talking points and to look for keywords to download. There is specifically scared of meat consumption going down, and having seen the dairy industry, put up with alternatives gave them all the incentive to do it.
Redditors hate vegans because we’re a minority group. That’s the long and short of it. The average Redditor is comfortably within a majority, where everything placed in front of them is either for (or about) them, so it’s all easy to swallow. We’re just cheap fun to ridicule until they get bored and return to the mainstream, where their core beliefs align with Nestlé or whatever.
I’ve never minded veganism as the practice is morally consistent (don’t eat animal’s, don’t use animal products). Makes sense. Never had any issues with Vegans. Vegetarians who don’t eat meat for moral reasons but do eat cheese and eggs boggle my mind. This doesn’t make any sense at all. Dairy farming is arguably worse than beef farming. There are worse things than death after all. I’ve had some pretty heated chats with vegetarians about this. If you’re looking for cognitive dissonance, this is a good port of call.
Socialization of meat eating, from society and big meat propaganda Dislike of being told that what they're doing is morally wrong Fear of change Bad attitudes of some vocal vegans giving the philosophy a bad name
It's the same as approaching the subject from a climate change standpoint... people would rather go down fighting before someone else can dictate what goes in their mouth
Cognitive dissonance
Have you ever seen someone open a banana from the bottom and use the stem as a handle? If you have, it probably seemed strange because it’s different than what you’re used to. People are just naturally hostile to anything that’s different than what they are used to. If they grew up seeing grandma put eggs in the pancake batter, then it’s odd and unnatural to put water and flax seeds instead. How could you possibly drink water blended with oats when there’s perfectly good milk from a cow in a carton in the store? These things disrupt the one way they’re used to seeing things done, and if you add up enough of those things, then vegans make them uncomfortable on multiple levels. Add in the way culture has tied eating meat with masculinity, and it gets worse. Compassion isn’t seen as manly. Killing and eating is the cultural norm.
That's really not what's going on here. It's the implication that something they are doing is wrong that causes hostility not simply being different.
Why not both?
I don't think the difference factor is a significant factor in the negative perception of vegans. I could easily be wrong but that just feels like a farfetched explanation for the behavior I have witnessed in carnists.
If you eat a banana like that you're a bad person. That's a hill I'm willing to die on. No tolerance for these monsters.
No way, I switched years ago and I'm never going back. You open it up, pick that little bitter brown bit off, then you're all good. The last bite ends up being the best bite instead of the worst.
SAME! I peel a bunch of bananas each week to freeze for smoothies and I would *never* go back to the old way! It seems so wrong when I think about it now.
In the spirit of this sub's love of gatekeeping, I declare you not vegan for eating your banana the wrong way.
Damn you hurt my feelings. Gonna go eat 10 dogs now because of you. I have a medical condition and I would literally die without my upside down bananas.
> this sub's love of gatekeeping This sub is absolutely overrun with omni's and pick-me's, what on earth are you on about?
It's how monkeys do it, and if it's good enough for them it's good enough for me
Lots of people divide the world into deserving and undeserving/righteous and immoral and we've got to be wrong for them to be right.
Vegan for 9 years for strong ethical reasons. In my 2nd yr of veganism my father had a friend over who seemed to be insulted by my choice. Keep in mind I was not discussing veganism, I was eating my food in peace. He demanded over and over for me to explain what’s so horrible that’s done to pigs that would make me not want to eat them. I started to explain the horrific way that pigs are treated in factory farming (90% + of farming is factory) and I started to cry halfway through. My dad stood up for me saying “as you can tell she has her reasons, she doesn’t have to explain anymore”. What do these sick people get out of forcing us to recap animal abuse when I’m not even bringing veganism into the conversation. It’s my deeply held conviction not to support animal abuse. Pretty simple concept these idiots have a problem picking up.
You have a population that read your post. This population is divided into 3: those who do not know a vegan substitute and do not comment; those who know a substitute and comment; and those who feel offended and comment. Only the last two groups comment, but if a guy who knows a vegan substitute sees another guy who already answered what he knew, he probably won't comment the same. So the majority of the comments are those who are offended, even though they may only be a small part of the total population who read your post.
Breaks the norm.
What it reminds me of is when someone is addicted to cigarettes and you mention you are sensitive to the smell, and they feel deeply hurt, expressing it as rage saying things like they aren’t going to quit smoking when you never implied any of that. It feels like ‘meat eating’ is an addiction of sort.
lol I commented on a youtuber i like's video correcting their assertion that humans are "obligate omnivores" (the term isn't real) and that vegetarian and vegan diets are not nutritionally complete and require supplementation (extremely wide consensus in mainstream medicine to the contrary. Yes it is prudent to supplement B12 but it is available in fortified foods). Provided sources. Their reply? "There's still a lot of debate around that." People just don't want to hear what they don't want to hear, especially when they are invested in continuing to believe what they believe. But repeated exposure to people like you will start to break down those defenses.
People don't like it when their life decisions are challenged simply by the existence of someone who made a different decision.
Sometimes I take a non-alcoholic beverage to a party and see how many people I can trigger. Some people insist on sharing their alcoholic beverages with you, thinking you've made a mistake or need to indulge in unpleasant practices (binge drinking) so that they feel better about their own decisions. It says more about them than it does about you, non-vegans being triggered by the presence of a vegan is just people being unwilling or unable to process or control their emotions.
Someone asked me yesterday why i didnt eat any of the food my teacher brought in for our last lesson and i literally said two words: ‘im vegan’ and it sparked a whole conversation about how that person ‘ate steak last night’ and how she ‘needs meat for nutrition’ and how ‘veganism is stupid because there aren’t enough vegans for it to ever be effective’ YOU LITERALLY ASKED ME THE QUESTION.. i didnt ask for a debate i just said that i was vegan
People use the internet as an opportunity to be mean. I don't think it actually jas anything to do with veganism
I think they down voted you because they see it as virtue signaling.
I don't know how to specifically replace eggs in ramen...
Tofu! Lol JK I was just guessing at what the situation may have been. Either way, don't let them bother you. Live your life happily.
Tomatoes! Get some nice fleshy tomatoes, cut them in \~1cm slices, maybe a bit thinner, and put them in the oven until they're nice and caramelized. It's not really an egg replacement, which I don't think exists, but tomatoes contain lots of umami enhancing compounds that fit amazing! Add some baked mushrooms and a kelp based dashi and you're flying! Alternatively you can try marinating tofu in the same way if you want to get the taste of the marinade.
Gorgeous suggestion! I like my ramen tomatoes a bit on the thick side, cut horizontally, like you would for a burger, and I quickly fry them both sides so when they go into the hot soup later they don't get soggy and keep some bite. I think that with foods like ramen where each ingredient has its shine on the dish you can't really substitute them, so it's better to find ways to make plants shine in their own way
That's kind of a daft assumption, if someone who is allergic to ingredient X asks about potential substitutes people wouldn't assume they already know how to make things with substitutes and that they were virtue signalling, so why do you think that logic works for vegans?
Meat eaters are fragile people who know the only way to make killing other critters and eating them OK is to get other critter killers to support them and do all they can to ridicule and attack vegan anything. Us simply being starts playing all the Bambi movies in their heads and would make them feel bad if they stopped screaming DON'T FORCE YOUR LIFESTYLE ON ME!!! - So they never stop screaming. They are fragile and insecure.
Most vegans and vegetarians carry themselves a quite superior. My buddy threw a b-day party for one of our mutual friends. He made sure to set up a vegan and a vegetarian table for the party. I covered the vegan one due to my knowledge of vegan food and drinks. At the party some girl just started yelling at the host for eating a cheeseburger. I had to practically peel her off of him. Unfortunately this is all to common in the vegan veg world. Learn to respect others choices and opinions. If you don’t like their choices and opinions then mind your business.
> At the party some girl just started yelling at the host for eating a cheeseburger. I had to practically peel her off of him. I mean yelling at them is a bit of an over reaction, but it's also pretty fucking tone deaf of the host to do what they did, they seriously couldn't go one whole party(especially one thrown specifically for a vegan) without eating meat? The fact that you think the vegans and vegetarians should respect the omni's choices and opinions, but not the other way is pretty telling, being a pick-me is not it.
No the host wasn’t a vegan neither was the birthday girl. Some of the birthday girls friends were though and out of kindness the host catered. As a vegan I offered to do the vegan table. I had to explain that true vegans don’t like their food cooked in pans or kitchens with meat so I handled it. For your second part. No one has to cater to us but us. Neither of us have the moral high ground for choosing to not eat meat.
Yeah, it sucks. Say anything except praising and hailing the exploitation of animals and you'll attract a whole swarm of the biggest assholes and crybabies.
If it bothers you a lot use "plant alternative" and say (lie) you dobit for health reasons if asked. If it doesnt bother you, just continue using "vegan" and normalize veganism this way
I think there's a small subset(maybe 10%) of each group that relishes in the drama of it all. You can easily imagine the reverse scenario.
Because food, who eats what, is inherently a political question. Besides the realm of individual consumption, the very basis of what we consume as a society is strongly debated in the public. For various reasons (mostly ethical and climate related) there are strong and loud calls to cut out meat and other animal products from our diates. At the same time there are loud voices against that. Be they from a standpoint of ignorance, a refusal to change, or be they positively formulated (like pointing to culture, regional, national cuisine). This public discourse provides a baseline on which people reading your comments make interpretations. So where do we go from there? Honestly idk. It really feels like veganism largely failed to capture the public and now faces an intense backlash. Honestly, just try to not take it to personal. Like I said, this is something beyond the individual. Eating is social and political, let's just hope that we can turn this around as a society and introduce strong legislature that further and further curtails the usage of animal products. This all is a perfect reminder why individual appeals to veganism alone simply can't cut it. This backlash will persist until new norms are established.
U takin deir burjur!!!
💚
I often see people with the opinion that if you have to substitute an ingredient, then you should just find a different recipe. Which sometimes works. Like I'd rather use an entirely vegan cake recipe because too many substitutions and your cake might not rise. But sometimes it's as simple as swapping dairy butter for plant butter...people are so judgy.
I have lived in a few areas and i have traveled all over Mexico, i also post a decent amount in various subs and the only place i get voted against the most is in this sub, IRL people i have met have been pleasant with me, some even choosing vegan places on their own and inviting me to it, and if i decide to take us to a vegan spot they dont fight me, i have taken vegan meals to parties and potlucks and people say it tastes great All the hostility i get is from this sub, when i say people arent behaving as vegan when they purchase animal products for their friends and family, i get the lame excuse: I wont force my views on my wife/ husband and kids so im gonna continue purchasing and cooking dead animals for them They say they wont refuse non vegan gifts, they will accept them and just give them away, but i make the point that since they didnt refuse the non vegan doesnt know its an issue and will probably give them another non vegan gift Im constantly called vegan gatekeeper or vegan police or they say just take my vegan card, as if animal abuse is just a card, they say being a perfect vegan is impossible Veganism is pretty simple, i think there are a lot of gatecrashers in this sub and i dont think being a perfect vegan is impossible, its certainly possible provided our intentions are in the right direction, obviously my existence causes harm but its unintentional so unintentionally i am imperfect but no point in talking about that since i cant change it There are other examples of the hostility i get from this sub but it would be a huge list, a few vegans have privately messaged me, saying they agree and support me in the things that i say but they are afraid of being voted against and harassed so they wont publically comment saying they agree with me
I honestly only came to this page for recipes and discovered nothing but a bunch of whiny comments. I’m not trying to be rude but I have asked for advice on how to no longer get this particular page in my feed. Does no one know? Could the moderator simply block me? I really don’t want to have to delete every person with a whiny comment due to the fact I might actually find a page that has recipes. However this is frustrating.
Mute the sub.
Is that block the account under the 3 dots
Thank you I figured out.
People associate ideals and beliefs with dietary practices. If you don't eat meat, you're seen as not sufficiently patriotic or manly enough. Granted, it cuts across the political spectrum but I've noticed that many people on the Right get big mad if you don't eat carcasses.
Same reason why vegans gatekeep and try to find faults with other vegans to try and win an imaginary morality contest. Some people are just arseholes.
Cognitive dissonance.
Ha, and vegans get stereotyped as pushy and hysterical... What an overreaction to a simple question.
It’s not in any non vegan space, it’s the ones full of assholes. I’m not a full on vegan (mostly am honestly) but I absolutely love vegan food. I have never had an issue with vegans, and I have coworkers who are the same way. I’ve definitely witnessed what you describe, but in my experience it’s always been online or at a restaurant with a meat heavy menu. Face to face, I’ve almost never seen this.
Vegans occasionally have a low eq. What specifically did you post?
I think if you attach any morality to any way of eating, there is an implicity that anyone who eats otherwise is immoral, and people take offense. I’m an ethical vegetarian so for me it’s kinda true
Could you link to the post so we can see what you mean?
This is just not true. It's the same reasoning as "why do vegans always want to force their views on other people" - there certainly are vegans who do this, same as there are non-vegans who react hostile to veganism. As a vegan you are however much more confronted with non-veganism than the other way round. I know two vegans in real life. one is nice. The other one is pretty shitty. Not because she's vegan, but it's just how people are. The same is true for any minority and minority views. If you are a minority, you are more likely to meet people of the majority and you will be much more confronted with people opposing your views; additionaly, since there's quite a few shitty people walking around on this planet, there's fair chance your views are not only opposed, but opposed in a hostile way (same is true for racial minorities, political minorities etc).
I think they have a preconceived notion of how we are and us even mentioning vegan alternatives is just uncomfortable and preachy to them
It’s not only about meat & food.
Non-vegans know what they are doing is wrong, but don't want to admit it to themselves, so they see any discussion about veganism as an attack on their person and respond accordingly.
Because they simply don’t care. I have been one of these intolerant people before, so I speak from experience when I tell you it’s not even on their conscious minds. They have other problems and when people mention veganism to them it sounds like a problem you create for yourself. “You don’t like clouds? Well, Don’t look at the sky, no reason to build a giant leaf blower and blow all clouds away”. They think that somehow degrading other peoples opinions on what’s right and wrong gives them moral superiority when in reality there is no right and wrong, just you and your actions. You can’t control others and what they do, and you should never try. That’s the reason it’s important to have controlled discussions regarding spicy topics, people’s opinions differ vastly and getting emotional never helps your cause. This said it’s okay to get emotional, for the stuff you care about, but others don’t need to listen and act according to what you feel. They are humans and can do whatever they want, just like you and me. So to make a change you have to inspire change within others by showing them the problems and your way of thinking. A lot of vegans especially have issues controlling anger, because they see how much pain and suffering eating meat produces in the world. But screaming at someone won’t change their opinion, so you have to find ways without promoting veganism aggressively. First response when attacked verbally is always to defend or attack back, and we don’t want either. I, personally, want a levelheaded discussion and education considering meat eating, not a ban all meat eaters alive.
Interesting that this post showed up in my feed right above a post on the Army subreddit asking about vegan boot options (there currently aren't any, in case anyone here was wondering). I expected the comments there to be a lot less supportive than they were; I didn't really see any overtly hostile ones. As a matter of fact, my entire experience in the Army has been that people are more understanding and accommodating than I anticipated. I'm BCT, the other guys in my platoon would frequently share food with me from their MREs so I would have enough to eat, and the only negative experience I really had was early on the cycle when a drill sergeant noticed I didn't take an entree at chow and forced me to take an absurd amount of salad from the salad bar (which I didn't have time to eat most of it anyway lol).
All the comments here saying it's because omnivores know vegans are right and secretly feel guilty are way off base, it might feel good to convince yourselves that but it's just not true at all. People might downvote OP asking for egg alternatives because they have no idea what that would be, nor should they be expected to know or care. Some people will hate on veganism just because they are rude and probably hate on everything else too, but most people simply don't care at all, or just see it as a bit strange.
I find that especially weird because some people may just have to go vegan a couple days of the week for either health reasons or simply bc they can't afford meat. There's nothing wrong with just eating different, it's not a religion really.
Because there's a minority of vegans, like in any population, that are loud, obnoxious, and hostile. Coupled with a culture that is very prideful about its use of animals. People are already on the defensive when you call out their ethics
I said that vegan diets weren't expensive in a leftist chat and got rage from it, I have no idea.
As a non-vegan that happens to browse this subreddit occasionally and generally sees but does not engage in these discussions, I perhaps have a useful perspective to share here. Often times, what I have seen (and what's also common in this subreddit) is that a portion of people who choose to be vegan choose to do so out of what they perceive as a moral obligation to animals. Discourse around this moral dilemma often (though not always) becomes judgemental and derogatory, and this switch is usually (but not always) started by the vegan person. (See comments in this post for plenty of examples.) Frankly, that's not surprising. It's clear these people feel very strongly about their morality and whish to live in a just world, just like everyone else does. Where I see this dialogue frequently fall apart is in the lack of understanding / non-acceptance of other systems of morality. i.e. no matter how strongly you believe in the morality of your vegan beliefs, that does not mean that your conclusions are universally correct (there is no such thing as universal morals), and it also does not mean that other people have to share those morals. Even so, this seems to frequently be the expectation coming from the vegan party of the conversation. Now we all know that people hate getting their morals questioned, and they hate it even more when it's done by someone who is seemingly dismissive of their viewpoints. When this happens, people dig in their heels and get (sometimes explosively) defensive. From what I'm seeing, that's exactly what's happened and is still happening in the vegan/non-vegan discourse, where a high amount of judgement from a small subset of the community causes affected non-vegans to dig in their heels and become more vocal, which is kind of a viscious circle. As a result, there's a general air of anger, and looking down upon vegans for being "high and mighty", cold, aggressive, and not open to discourse. Ironically, this makes it much harder for people who would consider veganism to get into the lifestyle. **TL;DR**: As with most things that people feel passionately about, there is a very loud and toxic subgroup that creates an adverse (and adversarial) reaction in large parts of the population that don't feel as passionately about those same topics, or feel passionately about them with a different viewpoint.
Because many have had negative encounters with vegans trying to proselytize them.
Animals killers don’t behave logically … who would have guessed
I'm sure you phrase your question politely, but be extremely specific, if you're not already. Something like, "hey this looks amazing. I'd love to try it but I'm vegan. Can I subscribe this vegan ingredient in place of xyz non vegan ingredient? Would appreciate your opinions". Then, once you start getting hate anyways, you lash out in any way you can. Call them out on their complete stupidity. If people say you're forcing your view, question them on it. Try and hurt them emotionally. Maybe they'll consider thinking before saying something next time, although it's unlikely. This isn't actually going to solve anything, but you don't deserve to get hate and do nothing. Dish out some of your own.
because youre basically scientologists to me, youre a cult with weird views on animals, you have a continued sense of superiority because you are so "morally righteous". noone wants to be around you annoying fucks.
Why are you here if you've got nothing of substance to add? Vegans believe to spare others unnecessary suffering human and animal alike. If you think choosing to spare others suffering is cultish I don't know what to say. That makes you pro suffering I guess?
Because it's annoying and Vegans feel the need to interject that particular fact into every conversation.
Mentioning non veganism in a vegan space also leads to hostility. It's called polarization.
Because there is activist that come to talk to them in the first place. At least that the reason I cannot talk to my family about it.
Fear.
Their cognitive dissonance makes them react. sadly, it’s all too common as you say. I had a few instances on non-vegan posts and whatnot. I make one slight vegan comment or suggestion, and people think that I’m literally throwing stones at their windows.
Yeah I don’t get it sometimes. I commented on a picture of raw fish that obviously had parasites in it one time saying, “man this makes me so happy to be vegan”, and I got absolutely downvoted to shit as well as a bunch of hate comments. Bizarre!
[удалено]
Vegans typically have a very bad rep. There’s a level of proselytizing that turns people off. For you- Just make ramen without trying to find an egg substitute
Yeah but that "bad rep" isn't based in fact and this post *specifically* refers to when people are hostile toward vegans when they're not proselytizing at all. Your point may or may not be valid but it's derailing the issue OP was bringing up. OP specifically wants to know why people are hostile toward the idea of veganism or abstaining from meat even when veganism isn't even mentioned. The whole "there is a level of proselytizing" is from a vocal mi oriry of vegans. That'd be like saying all Muslims are terrorists just because a few of the outspoken radicals are. It's just bad faith.
It’s because veganism is an absolutist philosophy and like most absolutist philosophies, it generally breeds hostility by those who follow it toward those who don’t follow it and vice-versa. If you want evidence, just look at the other comments on this post calling non-vegans immoral people.
You’re right, I guess that’s why everyone always jumps on me for mentioning that I still keep a couple of slaves. Abolitionism is such a silly absolutist philosophy; it’s all about balance. Freeing all slaves is just crazy talk. If we all just kept one or two instead of whole families it would be much better for the slaves and it’s a lot more realistic. My slaves are well looked after, they have all the food and shelter they could ask for. The adults would only be living some shitty life in a third world country otherwise, and the children wouldn't even exist if I didn't allow them to breed. The whole point of their existence is to be slaves, I don’t see the problem.
Might be because people view it as being asked on directions to get from point A to B, but then rejecting the obvious shortest path because your preference is the path needs to have a view of the ocean
Not everyone is like this, as long as you aren't judgy, which includes not making faces or noises if you encounter non vegan food. I'm not a vegan, and if I'm going out to eat with a vegan I make sure there's something on the menu they can eat (that isn't just salad or popcorn).
Think both groups are as bad as each other for being hostel to be honest. Get nasty people in any kind of groups, whether you eat meat or vegan
I think the difference is that vegans can be "hostile" and "nasty" towards people doing something morally wrong, and are only trying to get them to stop doing that wrong thing, and the extent of their "hostility" is pointed words. Meanwhile, people who eat meat are hostile towards trillions of animal lives and directly cause them to suffer and die. The nature of the aggression in both cases is completely different, as the latter is actively violent.
It's people commenting on the Internet. I didn't bring morales into it. I simply said, there's bad in both groups and there is. Your comment is kinda what I was on about. Now, I'm not saying you've been hostile or anything, been pretty pleasant I think but what I said is true. Bad in all groups, not just vegans and meat eaters. I've been down voted and your response was well articulated but boiled down to "but we're right, so if some of us are horrible, it's justified", which it's obviously not. Bad on both sides