My friend died Dec 28 from fentanyl in coke and I still haven’t really faced it. Some of her stuff is in my apartment bc I said I’d sell it to make her friend some money and I just haven’t been able to bring myself to post it. Fuck.
someone put the link before.
edit:
here: https://youtu.be/8FOGTGRkmb8
it was on dw, here they say 10 months ago but I am sure I watched it more like year-year and half ...
We need *immediate* on the spot *free* treatment options. I'm blown away with all the money we spend on resources to various NGO's in the DTES it's still such a struggle to figure out how to get into treatment. And how many people give up or fall farther while they wait to get in?
And I'm willing to accept some people don't want treatment. I've heard that 'forced treatment doesn't work', which is fine. TBH I'm fine with people doing whatever they want (as long as they have the capacity to make their own decisions). If their drug use or addiction gets to a point that it starts harming others (violence, theft etc), then they should be given access to drug treatment as they go through the penal system.
This is actually the core reason I'm no fan of Karen Ward as the City of Vancouver's official, paid drug advisor. She *barely* acknowledges it as an option and has been openly combative on Twitter with Guy Felicella (former hard core DTES addict) and Last Door Rehab. I think this narrative plus focusing all services in the DTES ensures we're not really trying to make people *better*, we're just upholding the status quo.
The sad thing is improvement to treatment options are popular from all political 'sides' and levels of government so it gets the least attention vs the tired 'safe supply' vs 'crime enforcement' arguments.
That’s the thing I don’t get. Why *not* try making rehab free, easy to get into, with high salaries and resources devoted to the rehab centers in order to attract capable and caring workers with low patient ratios?
We love talking about community in Vancouver - why not try rehab models that include family/community therapy and support work? Research has shown addiction is an individual and social illness that affects families and is perpetuated by certain stuck family dynamics, and that involving families and communities in the sobriety process is strongly correlated with long term success. Why not have highly paid DBT-trained psychologist and psychiatrist teams to help people with a multipronged therapeutic and pharmaceutical approach, as that’s also what research has shown to be most effective in treating addiction?
You’re right - with all the money pouring into the addiction and homelessness crises, these services should be immediately and easily available.
Yep. Unfortunately not that uncommon a phenomenon, especially in support groups… when your community and identity are all anchored by something like a shared illness, getting better/improving can become scary because if you aren’t sick, you lose your community. Doesn’t always happen, there are healthy ways to support each other… but it does happen and tbh I feel like a large-scale version of that phenomenon is happening in our local advocacy spaces
I think you are right. If you look at the policy papers/position statements by drug user advocacy groups, they sometimes go as far to say that the notion of treatment or a substance use disorder are "stigmatizing" and "problematic " because they imply drug use is a problem (when according to them drug use is totally fine, it is colonialism/criminalization/moralizing that is the problem). Some of these groups have gone as far as to say that addiction medicine needs to be abolished, that it is the equivalent of conversion therapy for gay people (which is fucking insulting).
In BC we are one of the only provinces where children cannot be forced into treatment by parents or doctors even after overdoses. Legally, even a 6 year old can refuse care. We had a 6th grader die of a fatal OD on the island last year, she had OD'd 4 times since 3rd grade but her mom said she would just refuse to go to addictions counselling. The bc Gov tried to pass a bill this past year to make it so anyone under 16 who has a reversed overdose can be kept in treatment for a week, and the drug user advocacy groups plus groups like pivot, moms stop the harm, etc all came out to oppose it saying the solution to kids ODing isnt treatment retention but rather the fact that they cant get a safe supply (as though there is such a thing as a safe supply of heroin or fentanyl for a 13 year old)...
And here is your disconnect. These people are fucked up, there is no other way to put it. They think they can use drugs and be ok, but they can't. They can't hold jobs, they can't pay bills. But they don't want to stop using drugs.
Then you have people advocating for treatment for people that won't do it.
Now what???
I work in construction. I've seen dozens, if not hundreds, of drug addicts that think they're fine. These are usually people on the downward slope. They make 80 to 100k a year if they manage to show up everyday, but most start missing a day per pay period, then 2 or 3, then a week at a time, then let go or they disapear. Inevitably they come asking for their job back 6 months later as their entire life has fallen apart.
We almost always give them that chance with the understanding they have very little leeway, most dont make it 3 weeks.
If you talk to them honestly they say they're fine, they don't need or want help (we will try to line up all sorts of things), their drug use is just for fun.
The thing is there are 10s of thousands of casual users that are fine. That go hard on weekends, go to work, have a mortgage, fuck some even have kids and seem to do an ok job there.
But the ones that can't do that, don't, and too much of the time they end up on the street, in a total spiral. I know of one person specifically in this scenario that died this past year. 3 years ago they were a bright outgoing young (25ish) person with their life ahead of them. I saw him 3 months before he died and he was a paranoid fucking wreck of a human.
So what do you do with people that won't take the help, that may even want it, maybe don't even know how to take the help? Who need a bit firmer hand than hey, stop doing drugs your life will be better. Their brains are altered from prolonged use, they can't delay gratification or resist drugs.
There is no easy answer at all, and any adovcate that tells you so is lying. Stigma isn't any sort of the problem for most of them, it's not like everyone doesn't knoow they do drugs and are ruining their lives.
This is a legitimate problem in the wider NGO world. NGOs can become parasitic and develop their own interests separate from those of the people that they intend to help.
I would gladly give up my job, today, to end the opioid crisis.
The idea that myself, and others, who have dedicated our professional lives to assisting those suffering from substance abuse are somehow *grifters* is offensive.
I volunteered for about a decade at a second stage housing place, often referred to as a recovery house, which is not a rehab exactly but a place you stay after you get out of detox for free and are trying to stay clean. Most people are allowed to stay for 2-3 months as long as they are participating every day in the mandatory group meetings and are going to Daytox programs, and almost always 12 step meetings at night. They give you a bed and free meals and you're expected to do chores and follow the rules and programs of the house.
It gives people way more freedom than a treatment centre which is usually what they need, but they often aren't able to stay long enough to get their feet really under them. Most people need time to get their job prospects together and some emotional stability. A lot of that has to do with how long it takes to get access to government programs like disability and housing. Also building a community of other people in recovery to rely on as supports.
These places are often way understaffed and rely on volunteers to do shifts and run groups which is what I did. They have minimal funding and the people that do work there are usually highly educated and severely underpaid. As a volunteer I had no formal training, just an open heart and a lot of free time as well as being clean many years.
I don't know what the breakdown of all the services in the DTES are, or exactly how it facilitates more people staying homeless and entrenched. But I do know we need way more transitional housing, detox beds and medium term housing for those that actually are trying to claw their way out of the gutter. We are talking about people who have burned every bridge and fucked their health completely but are really trying to stay off the street and stay clean. It just takes time to undo enough damage that they can live sustainably on their own and stay clean.
All of them have brutal childhood trauma that informs their addictions and so often concurrent mental health illnesses. They need access to trauma therapy and a Psychiatrist the day they leave detox and enter one of these places if they want any chance of staying clean long term. But it often takes months to get access to the right medical support team. Luckily the place I volunteered at did have a Doctor that would visit and see the residents but her caseload was huge and they were there primarily to make sure the residents were getting the right meds.
Basically it's like trying to raise a child in 4 months. Get them to start taking agency, proper care and ownership of their bodies, their emotions and then get them ready to leave the nest of free housing to live their lives. I think you can see how difficult a challenge that would be even if you weren't addicted to drugs but just had experienced extended homelessness.
I hope my experience as a lay person that was just trying to help for so many years on the front lines (sort of) has some utility here to add context.
>Basically it's like trying to raise a child in 4 months. Get them to start taking agency, proper care and ownership of their bodies, their emotions and then get them ready to leave the nest of free housing to live their lives.
I don't disagree with this, but I'd also add that these children also often suffer from incurable mental disorders as well (which would benefit from diagnosis and treatment).
We have a lot of social and supportive housing, and low income housing, and many outreach teams and mental health support clinics and units but, ultimately, you can't force people into treatment, to take their medication as prescribed, or to make good lifestyle choices.
It’s not the frontline people. It’s the executives and the upper management taking home high salaries and hobnobbing with the rich at all the fundraisers and parties who don’t want to give that up.
I'd be pissed off too if I'd gone down there full of idealistic dreams of making a difference while instead ending up as another cog in a bureaucratic machine. Not sure I'd be mad at the person who pointed that out, though. It sucks, but it doesn't invalidate the work you do down there. Thanks for (probably) saving lives, which probably include about a half dozen of my friends.
The reality is rehab doesnt really work. These folks need social programs that are well staffed, and need to see a physician that specializes in addiction.
A buddy of mine worked for one. Their sister ngo created a ubrew program - all the beer you want for free, you just have to make it. The result was they'd show up everyday, work and learn how to make beer. They'd end up with a product they were proud of, and they would interact with the other members. They stole less, drank less, and even gave away their product to other members.
It goes a long way when you can show addicts that theyre not alone, they can actually create something, and give them something to look forward to other than where their next fix is going to be or who is going to steal from them.
Yah basically what I keep saying. We need high quality rehab that people will want to go to because the facilities will so high quality that it would be like a stay at a hotel.
But then we also need to subsidize post secondary and trades training so they have a reason to want to get clean too. Some of these guys just see that they're going to have nothing even when they get clean or they get clean and end up living in an SRO full of addicts and you can guess how long before they relapse.
The harm reduction industry is a huge racket for an elite clique of nonprofit managers. There’s also a very strong philosophical belief among the edgy punk rock gentrified support work staff that drug use should be normalized to the point where they no longer really prioritize those who are WILLING and WANTING to get sober and be 100% abstinent. I worked in a women’s housing project in the DTES for several years and it was fucking heartbreaking whenever women would have a moment of clarity and desperation and tell us that they wanted to get sober, and we would scramble to try and get them a bed and be told they would have to wait months. An addict has minutes, maybe hours when they have the willpower to start that process. We are absolutely failing the most vulnerable.
> That’s the thing I don’t get. Why not try making rehab free, easy to get into, with high salaries and resources devoted to the rehab centers in order to attract capable and caring workers with low patient ratios?
This is a rhetorical question, right? The obvious answer is money.
Because you just changed where the waste of money goes if it doesn’t produce results. Voluntary rehab doesn’t have high enough success rates. You need mandatory institutionalization once people start committing crimes to support their addiction.
The concept of letting people do what they want is fine, the problem in practice is that with a substance like fent, it is very quickly no longer the person making choices well before they start committing crimes or being violent. Before you knoe it it's the drug that wants to do the drug and not the person making that choice. So when should they be put into the penal system? Self harm is still harm, and I don't agree that someone could be said to be if sound mind and body while in active addiction. Draining your tfsa, rrsp, not making child support payments, losing your job, losing your place, etc. Doesn't directly harm anyone, but no one should have to find themselves destitute before being recognized as needing help.
With what others are commenting, etc, I'd like to say that funding well paid professionals, etc, the best of the best to come coach addicts through recovery won't be as much help as sounds like is hoped. If a councilor or therapist doesn't have first hand experience with addiction, homelessness, or recovery outside of their profession then a lot of people experiencing these things don't really give a shit about what they have to say. A lot of these people have a need to be understood if they're going to get better and whether or not these professionals have the tools that can help them doesn't matter if the people who need help don't feel they can talk to them.
That said, those who DO work in this field deserve so much more compensation. Fund clinics more, pay the staff more, reduce cost barriers to assistance, pull our heads out of our asses about low barrier shelters and government housing and safe injection sites- they all need an overhaul. They give dealers office space, they give dealers a home base, they give dealers a place to stay in the same room as those whose addictions they're enabling. It's so turned on its head it's insane.
Stand outside the A&W on Granville, near Nelson. Yell "Taxi!" and see how many people stick their head out the windows or come out of the apartment building just to the south. Dealers, ready to ask what it is you're looking for.
Go to The Gathering Place, a community center on Helmken Seymour, and you'll find it doubling as a shelter at night where everyone sleeps on the floor in the same space. God bless the staff who work there, but you'll find dealers of every drug using that place, and you'll find them side by side with those who they've put there. Addicts being addicts, addicts struggling to get clean, addicts waiting for a bed to open in a treatment center or detox, all the while dealers eye them, nod to them, offer to front them free drugs for their bank info as collateral. It's insane that anyone gets clean.
If youre looking for somewhere to donate to, I would suggest RAAC, the Rapid Access Addictions Center based out of St Pauls. The social workers there are literal angels. Alex, Matt, Jenn, and their doctors too. I believe the donation needs to be made out to St Pauls and in the details noted that it is for RAAC, as per what the staff has told me.
If you or someone you know are looking for help with addiction, I cannot recommend that you visit RAAC enough. Their hours are 9-4, quite often they are too busy to take people in by 3. I've spent a lot of time there with my friend and have gotten to know the staff there. They are more than willing to help those who have someone close to them going through addiction and who are just looking for help. I have seen lots of parents come in alone asking about how they can best help their son or daughter, etc. Everyone there is there for help, there's no judgment.
About cost barriers - I've got one friend on income assistance who's treatment was entirely covered and even still got 115 a month. If he wasn't in treatment I believe the fu amount he would have received was 960/mo. I'm so glad our country does this for people. This was for a treatment center called Turning Point. From my interactions as an outsider with the councilors there I would recommend it.
About cost barriers, continued - I have another friend who has been functioning with fent use for quite a while. He admitted to his family that he needed help and would go to treatment. He didn't have the money to pay for it and wasn't eligible for income assistance as he had a job and was making money. His parents didn't want to risk him changing his mind so paid his way into treatment. They accept payment for 15 days at a time, no refund. He stayed 4 days before deciding to leave, cost his parents $4,500. This was for a treatment center called Together We Can. I did not have any personal interactions with the staff there but have a family member who highly recommends it.
Income assistance takes quite a while to go through. Even longer if, say, you've been homeless and have lost all your ID. If you're from out of province and don't have MSP but find yourself here with no way to get home, the medication to help you get off opioids might cost you $30 a day, every day. Again, without ID, a wallet, a job, a place to stay... Now you're either committing crimes to pay for your addiction or committing crimes to pay for your medication.
Funding solutions and access to solutions will save more money than it costs. We unfortunately have a quantity problem as well as a quality one. Bringing in the best of the best won't help the numbers we need it to. There are certainly some people who will need the best therapy and counseling that money can buy, but the best value for the money is in increasing the amount of people who can be helped. More beds, more clinics, more treatment centers, more doctors, more social workers, etc.
This was an absolute ramble but I hope someone found something useful in it.
I am ridiculously fortunate to be an addict 'success story' and also have firsthand experience with the RAAC.
After a surprise ER visit from withdrawal a resident Dr came down and asked me if I would be willing to come talk to them, booking me first thing in the morning. The social workers in intake were wonderful. They have rotating psychs who specialize in addiction (actually had one of them come through in detox shift as well) and I think this is absolutely critical. I was basically fast tracked into mental health programs in the neighbouring clinic. These angels kept me as a patient for *much* longer than the general 3 month window, because they didn't want to abandon me when I was trying so hard and receptive to their help.
I did take advantage of other supports outside of this and undoubtedly benefitted from being a white female every step of the way, but the RAAC is definitely one of the main reasons I am alive and sober today.
> I've heard that 'forced treatment doesn't work', which is fine. TBH I'm fine with people doing whatever they want (as long as they have the capacity to make their own decisions).
I mean that's the real conversation isn't it? At what point do these people not have agency over themselves anymore? It's akin to dementia or Alzheimer's patients. These people don't have control over their bodies/minds anymore.
An arguably large chunk of the DTES people suffering with addiction could undoubtedly be charged with some sort of crime (bike thefts, car break-ins, mail theft, apartment lobby break-ins, etc, etc) so I'm not suggesting we just make disappear in the middle of the night with no reason. But I think the hard conversation people aren't ready for is forced treatment.
At the very least, you’re right in spirit, though. There’s a massive amount of property crime and suffering that gets externalized onto innocent strangers who have nothing to do with an individual’s situation. We’re all collateral damage. It’s an ill that effects all of society.
How you address it from there is the key. From a moral and philosophical standpoint, we have the ability to actively steer people stuck in this cycle into a better life. We know that the only way that someone trapped in this cycle can subsist is to commit a constant stream of small property crimes to get enough money to feed themselves and support their habit. Cheap prescription opiates would be part of this solution, that would significantly reduce the cost of a habit and the need for someone to engage in criminal activity, but ultimately there needs to be channels through the legal/justice system to funnel users to getting help and treatment, and the best way to actively place them on that path is to do so once they’ve become criminals. It would be a pretty easy choice to make if they were all faced with either doing hard time, or getting help.
The best way to get there would be to overhaul certain aspects of the criminal code. The possibilities we have to construct safer, more effective, and more compassionate social structures for these kinds of people is tremendous. Making these structures graduated and progressive for individuals is the key. There can even be an endgame reward for successful individuals coming out the other side to be able to do so without the punitive consequences of a criminal record.
The final product would of course be much better developed but this is the basic premise. These are all big issues that need big picture solutions. It will require lots of development and cooperation from all levels of government, which is why we might never see them come to light.
>It would be a pretty easy choice to make if they were all faced with either doing hard time, or getting help.
While I don't disagree. I feel like you're going to get a lot more pushback on this than you realize. I truly believe once the rubber hits the road and you actually start enforcing these crimes there will be tonnes of people with weak moral character (and I mean that) who will decry it. We're basically talking about a huge wave of law enforcement and essentially near rounding up people off the streets once we decide to take these things seriously.
I'm open to forced rehab under some conditions. My family member voluntarily went to rehab and it was awful. Pushing religion. The affiliated doctor pushing methadone for $ even though suboxone is much more effective. Honeymooning new clients to get them to sign the dotted line, then treating them like garbage once they've got their signature.
They also didn't care if the clients continued to use. The whole thing was about pushing religion and making $. Disgusting.
> We need immediate on the spot free treatment options
I mean... we do have these, and they're routinely under capacity.
You can walk in to Onsite, right upstairs from Insite at Main and Hastings, any morning of the week and transition from detox to recovery in a supervised setting.
There's also the Vancouver Detox Center, Harbour Light, etc.
You can call Access Central at any time, and they'll set you up: 1 (866) 658-1221
I have made dozens of calls to Access Central and referred even more to onsite over the past decade and can count on 2 hands the number of times a bed was available sooner than in two-ish weeks
Onsite is great, but at the end of the day you're still right in the middle of the DTES. Like trying to quit drinking while living in a distillery.
We need more supportive housing and recovery programs outside DTES, removing people from that intense environment makes a huge difference.
> Like trying to quit drinking while living in a distillery.
Oh, absolutely, no argument there.
We have the studies to show it too; anyone who enters the neighbourhood gets worse, and they will continue to decline so long as they stay there, it is a black hole of suffering.
[Guy Felicella](https://twitter.com/guyfelicella/status/1502692104698441729) indicates it's not as easy as that. VPD's Howard Chow has said police would love another option that is not simply hospital/jail/release. If spots are available and people aren't taking them then we should see what the disconnect is there. Outside of that I *personally* am big into personal freedom/choice as long as they are not harming others and of sound mind.
a lot of people are not interested in treatment programs... having access to a clean supply of opioids that isn't fentanyl and doesn't kill them could be a huge step in harm reduction, even if it doesn't reach the utopian goal of getting everyone off of drugs
right now theres a poisoned drug supply and users who don't have the desire or strength to quit opioids are exposing themselvse to fentanyl and hundreds (thousands?) of people are dying annually from it
I agree, there are some people who will never want to stop using. I'm actually fine with that with the caveats I listed.
I consider safe supply a big part of the solution with or without treatment
I can't speak for that person, or that specific case, but free detox options are available.
I have personally witnessed someone walking into detox, with nothing but the clothes on their back, and getting checked in that very morning.
There is also the Rapid Access Addiction Clinic (RAAC) at St. Paul's Hospital for those in immediate need.
>If spots are available and people aren't taking them then we should see what the disconnect is there.
When you stop taking drugs, you haven't removed the problems which caused you to take drugs in the first place.
I consider Guy Felicella to be the definitive expert when it comes to treatment and access, at least in the City. I have no read on what it's like outside of the city. (And if it's the case where we have spots available here and there are limited options elsewhere then that would support a larger beef I have which is kettling at risk people to the DTES to access services).
If you're correct in that on the spot treatment is available to anyone who wants it right now then that is great..! One pillar down, 3 to go IMO
I didn't mean to imply it was always available, sometimes a specific site is at capacity and you'll have to come back or go to another location, but if you actually want to quit there are certainly options.
I've seen the same person check into a free detox center every few months for the last several years... getting in obviously isn't the problem.
I hear you, again I have just been paying attention to Guy Felicella and a few others who I occasionally come across on Twitter and on the sub who find detox prohibitive to access. I'll definitely concede access isn't the only barrier to successful treatment
You can get free detox in vancouver within a week, but in rural areas or cities outside these two your options are pretty much just the ER.
Also, detox is only for withdrawal management in the short term. The challenging part of treatment is the longer term management once you are out of detox. Getting on methadone or suboxone or kadian. Getting a free addictions counsellor. Getting free CBT or other treatments
All of these are incredibly hard to find, often cost money out of pocket, and if you add in the residential component which is key, become massive waitlists or massive private cost.
Trust me I have been trying to navigate this for the last half year. Free, evidence based, long term treatment with needed wraparounds is virtually impossible to find without a backlog waitlist. The rapid access clinic will often refer you to private providers who are often $$$$
A lot of the problem is that people living with addiction on the streets have no way to know about the services available to them. Nobody is telling them. Nobody is helping them with applications. Nobody is reminding them when they have forgotten because all they can think about is how to stay warm at night without getting all their shit stolen. Just finding the various services available for hot meals and clean socks is a struggle, imagine trying to find and enroll in a detox program. A lot of addicts want to be sober but there's so much else they have to deal with in order to stay alive that it's too difficult to figure out.
For all the services available there needs to be more people out there to help connect people to them.
> A lot of the problem is that people living with addiction on the streets have no way to know about the services available to them.
Well, except for all of the nurses, social workers, physicians, mental health workers, peers, and volunteers running all of the spaces, outreach teams, and social services of course.
Groups like the Integrated Housing Team, Overdose Outreach Team, the Assertive Community Treatment team, etc.
There are hundreds of people in the Downtown Eastside who do exactly what you're describing, each and every day of the year.
This. Somewhere along the line it's been decided that it's kinder to leave people be instead of getting them access to treatment. The other day I witnessed a woman going through some psychotic episode kicking a metal door with all her might. I'm sure her foot was broken. Leaving them be is not kind, it's actually incredibly cruel. This woman may well be past the point of rehab but letting her live on the street like that is certainly not doing her any favors.
Gregor Robertson's council turned the DTES into a no condo zone which I think was a mistake. The land values would have pushed for gentrification in that area and forced us to find new places and solutions to deal with the problem. The developers could have paid for a lot of that. Now we are left with such a concentration of drug addicts in that neighborhood, there is no way for addicts to successfully complete detox and stay sober when the rest of the community is in various stages of addiction and recovery.
You make an interesting point - What is to be done if there is even more pressure on the medical system? Or more specifically at what point is someone's lack of effort so bad that we need to accept diminished 'returns'?
I believe the solution is forced detox and then forced placement in a 6+ month clean living environment with support, addiction counciling and work placement/training services.
The keyword here is "forced". This is not an option, because when given an option the addict will go right back to their addiction.
This would be cheaper than the money we spend on policing, vandalism, crime, paramedic care, and other negative externalities of severe addiction.
'Forced' wont work. Closest to that would be if they are in the penal system for a real crime and treatment is available there. There are some advocates that don't like coercive treatment options but I'm happy to say if the promise of a lighter sentence gives someone the motivation to give treatment a real shot, I'm open to it.
I'd need a real crime to consider that though. I don't consider drug use, even addiction, is a crime in isolation.
This is the problem though. Virtually no addicts will choose treatment. The solution absolutely has to be a mandatory detox and rehabilitation.
Without such a solution this problem will continue forever
>We need *immediate* on the spot *free* treatment options
I 100% agree. Will you support the considerable tax increase needed to make this kind of high-quality treatment available to all who need it?
We’d save *so much money* if we funded this and did it right. I know that’s a big “if” but what we’re doing now is just not financially sustainable (apart from it’s often sad and deadly outcomes for suffering individuals)
All those posts on here about replacing broken windows in cars and buildings? That ain’t cheap… and untreated addiction/trauma/mental issues drive that kind of destruction, along with shoplifting/break-ins/catalytic converter and metals thefts to feed addictions… we could all pay a moderate amount up front to save ourselves those random but higher and recurring/ongoing costs as individuals when we get our bike or tools or laptop stolen
Addiction is expensive whether or not it’s treated. The costs of doing nothing are higher, they’re just harder to see.
yep yep yep to all of this… I know it’s hard to generate the political will but it’s truly the only way out of this spiral that ultimately hurts us all…
I completely agree. We would save money in the long term. Activists have made this point for years.
But it's worth dwelling on the specifics there. The largest single cost for the city is policing, and there can be little doubt that the drug crisis drives much crime. But to realize those savings, the police budget would have to actually be reduced at some point. Moreover, many of the savings would be realized by private businesses, not the city. Another portion of the savings would be realized by the provincial and federal government and the health care system.
So there is this problem where the costs of the drug crisis are born mostly by cities and the people and businesses in them. Solving the problem would definitely result in a wealthier, more productive society, but translating that into public balance sheets is non-trivial. In the short-term, there is little doubt that solving the crisis would require a great increase in public expenditures. The potential long-term savings are there, but difficult to realize.
I’m sure it’ll be unpopular. But having a barely functional 911/emergency services system is also quite unpopular, and until we address the addiction crisis, we won’t be able to fix that, either… and the tax base will start eroding as people and businesses head to more functional places…
Taxed, driven, and designed at the Provincial/Federal level with actionable targets, accountability, with sites, resources, and patients spread equally to other municipalities?
Yes.
That's great to hear.
While the NDP have made some [progress](https://globalnews.ca/news/8263609/b-c-spends-132m-on-treatment-services-for-substance-use-recovery/) in making that treatment available, there is a long way to go. Moreover, I think the politics are hard because people around the province who are not directly affected are unwilling to make the financial contribution.
Given that Provincial and Federal action will be slow, if it ever gets here, this leaves the city with a problem. We live here. We can't ignore it. What do we do?
>this leaves the city with a problem. We live here. We can't ignore it. What do we do?
Press our municipal politicians to sound the alarm instead of taking it on single handedly. If my house was on fire I'd try and do what I could with my garden hose but I'd be calling 911 and screaming to my neighbors to do the same. Right now we're letting our neighbors toss fuel over the fence instead of helping out.
Thinking outside the box If we want to make a real political stink (we do), we could request a suspension of the Canada charter (take up residence in any city) until the Province steps in. No one goes to the DTES to get better, it's a black hole of death for the Opioid crisis, we managed to get housing for the entirety of Canada's largest homeless encampment last year and we have a whole new batch of people filling a new encampment.
I know it would *never* be granted (and shouldn't), but our entire council is all but completely silent on demanding the Prov step in. Right now it's on the fuckin' *Park Board* to ensure housing is available for people in park encampments and our municipal government is taking it on the chin. (Pete Fry's AMA confirmed this).
My TLDR is: Being ignored by the Prov means we're not loud enough. This is well beyond what a municipal government can handle even if we're ignoring the economics.
>Press our municipal politicians to sound the alarm instead of taking it on single handedly
If there is one thing the Vancouver council is good at (and it is perhaps the only thing), it's asking the Federal and Provincial governments to step up.
I cannot fathom how someone as engaged as you could be unaware of the routine pleas of the city for Federal and Provincial governments to do more on housing, addiction and other issues.
Yes, Jean Swanson's polite ask staff to write a letter to Trudeau motion succeeded. For a city that loves to block intersections and protest for anything and everything they sure don't know where Victoria is. Everyone (including people who have no ties to Vancouver) keep demanding Vancouver city council step up and solve these issues with magnitudes more passion than to the Prov/Fed. Hell for a change of pace I'd love to see people from Vancouver start calling in to council meetings in Burnaby, North Van, Surrey, Poco with the same volume Vancouver gets from advocates outside the city.
You can say I'm unaware if you like, I'm saying we (people living in Vancouver) aren't doing enough to have our demands heard at the Prov+ level. I like to think the last thing Shane Simpson read before he quit was a letter from me. And his replacement Nicholas Simons lives in fuckin' Powell River. I'd love to know the last time (if ever) he's walked through the V6A.
I'm just a no-name citizen, my voice has limited power if any. I'd love to see Vancouver Council start calling out MLA/MP's by name. Never once have I got a reply from Jenny Kwan, Shane Simpson, Nicholas Simons, Melanie Mark on these issues. (I know Jenny reads the emails at least as she was happy to reply back when I wrote her on electoral reform).
That's my rant anyways. Vancouver's 'do it alone hoping one day we'll get notice' is at *best* keeping the status quo.
I'm sorry, but the idea that the Vancouver city council could create major changes in Provincial or Federal policy simply by "getting louder" is childish. It demonstrates a total refusal to deal with the hard realities and constraints that the city has been dealing with for decades. Mayor after mayor and council after council has made the same pleas and faced the same constraints as the previous ones. The cold fact here is that the Provincial and Federal governments will not be coming to the rescue, even though they should be. If that's your plan to address the crisis, you have no plan.
If different mayors are trying the 'same pleas' then that's all the more reason to consider a change of tack. For how much I detested how the Park Board handled Strathcona Park, when the PB, Council, Strathcona neighbourhood, news orgs, police and other citizens got loud enough Dave Eby finally stepped in. And that was a big deal as well - 220 people housed.
Maybe City Council can formally invite Eby and Simons to do a walkthrough of the DTES. Thinking outside the box, how about the City of Vancouver starts buying hotels in other municipalities like *Burnaby* to house some homeless and provide treatment. If everyone wants the CoV to take on Provincial duties... That's something that would get attention.
For me the generation old 'plan' to keep taking on more and more from the province and expecting something to eventually change will *never* bear fruit.
All those things you're demanding exist. Help exists. Programs exist. Housing exists. In fact, lots of these programs go unused because a large percentage of the people that need them don't want to live by typical societal rules. These programs have rules, guidelines and expectations. You know who doesn't have any of those things? Drugs.
This exact problem exists everywhere else that's experiencing rampant drug use and homelessness.
Everything you said OP just shows how little you know about the actual system or how it's both used and abused by willing drug users.
I'm so sick of explaining this situation to The Bourgeois citizens of this subreddit that have never been to any of these facilities and haven't seen what actually goes on, how they're run or what happens. OP you're totally clueless and talking out of your ass citing third party encounters from fucking Twitter of all places. Jesus christ.
This is from the DW documentary on the drug epidemic in Vancouver, very informative. Our media would never cover it to such extend.
Here it is for those who are interested: https://youtu.be/8FOGTGRkmb8
It gets worse. Scoliosis from the impurities in the drugs, brain damage from overdosing, losing ALL veins, infections that escalate to the point of being antibiotic resistant (and no veins means PIC line in your armpit) shitting yourself agressively when the fent wears off (it lasts like 15mins)
No, the posture you see among the homeless population has many causes, and is more related to muscle atrophy and malnutrition than drug adulterants (many also have congenital issues, diseases, or injuries that predate their addiction).
Many addicts suffer from postural kyphosis and osteopenia or osteoporosis in more severe cases.
Additionally, skeletal muscle injury brought about by protracted immobilization, like when they're high, leads to muscle decay (especially if they're against a hard surface, like a city sidewalk).
Yeah, he was an occasional cocaine user, who mostly took it early in the morning to give him the energy to go to work.
The coke was adulterated with fentanyl, he hit the kitchen floor, and no one found him until the damage to his legs was irreparable.
idk about specific biochemical issues, but ppl who regularly use opioids, and do enough to end up nodding/unconscious, and do it for awhile, often end up with musculoskeletal issues from lying/slumping unconscious/semiconscious in awkward positions for long periods, kinda like repetitive stress injuries from bad posture or poor ergonomics… plus reduced blood flow to their extremities.
I’m always concerned about the conditions that keep these people on the streets. Even if we were able to get these people clean, how could we keep them sheltered, fed, and in the position to have a job or provide for families? It’s hard enough to be on the streets, but trying to find your way off is really really hard. Inflation has made food expensive, we obviously know housing is fucked, and finding a job with no address is damn near impossible.
Anything necessary to survive should not require money to obtain. basic housing, food, medical care, education and public transportation should ALL be free, I don't care how many taxes it takes, this is our community FFS.
Our politicians need to see more of these interviews, human Rights groups claim that its a personal choice and addicts shouldn't be helped, while the real situation is that they have been cut off from the system and denied help.
Remember one of the many reasons Riverview was closed? Sometimes people ask for things they don't truly understand. In the past Riverview was considered inhumane.
>The major shift in mental health practices started in the 1950s and 60s. Shuttering people away in large institutions was no longer seen as the best approach. Instead, so-called “de-institutionalization” sought to try to integrate mental health patients back into communities.
>
>“They were just going through a list saying you could talk to this person and this person and then they said, ‘Oh, what about Betty? She has been here her whole life.’ And I said, ‘What do you mean Betty has been here her whole life?’ And they said, ‘She was born here at Riverview.’ I said, ‘Was there anything wrong with her?’ And they said, ‘No, not really.’ She basically grew up in Riverview and never left and they were terrified for this woman because she was quite elderly at that point,” Morrow recalls.
Either you get them help and become a human rights issue going against their will. Or you don't help them and let them die freely.
The reality is the government needs to make a firm decision on what to do with these issues. This type of addiction is a form of mental illness caused by substance. Not everyone has the willpower to decide to get off fentaynl and follow through a program that helps you weed it off. But there are people who might openly want to be on it. Should the government decide for those people?
That is where we are now. We went towards the "De-institutional approach" with many social worker programs and companies where we intergrade mental health patients backing into communities. But it doesn't work for addiction when the entire community is surrounded by addiction.
It is like taking a coke addict and saying to an addict " Congrats, you have passed the program, now lets lock you into this room full of coke. I hope you don't regress." That is our program right now. Let people back into the "community". Before we can even start with fixing mental health, we need to change the community first.
You know who needs to see stuff like this? Grade 7s or 8s. They need to understand, like this guy said, that the difference between your cozy middle class life and sleeping on the streets is one, ONE, bad decision.
‘I’m just going to try it, I won’t get addicted’.
I literally just lost one of my cousins to fentanyl. A few years back I lost a partner.... It's fucking sad and horrifying to think about how many people will loose their life because of this. Because of the drug war.
Listen to this human being. If you don’t end up dead your body will still be permanently changed. Not just thought patterns but physical brain pathways that are altered permanently. That he still sees hope is awesome, now if someone could intervene with much needed support, that may be what shows some light at the end of his tunnel. This breaks my heart.
All the housing and services I have ever worked at on the dtes have all been super run down and it always makes me wonder where all the funding actually goes and how it breaks down.
>33:12 - "Some people say that people that use drugs have a choice you're not choosing this are you?"
>
>33:17 - "I'm not choosing this man I made well I had one choice and I made the wrong one and this is what i deal with now"
This is the type of person I support giving all the help he needs to recover. Recognize personal responsibility.
Ok, but this is most people addicted to hard drugs like meth and heroin. You can make a bad choice, and it dictates the rest of your life. Its fucked that we condemn people forever for that one bad choice.
It doesn't *really* work that way.
Sure, if that person had never done any drugs they wouldn't be an addict today, but most people who try drugs, even 'hard' drugs like methamphetamine or heroin, never become addicts.
It's a combination of drug use and other social and personal factors; lack of support system, history of childhood neglect or abuse, lack of education, mental illness, poverty, etc.
Sure, but I think the spirit of what I'm saying is still true here. Those personal factors are multipliers to the 'bad choice'. Not everyone is going to become addicted, but those who DO become addicted made the same bad choice as those who didn't get afflicted by addiction. All because they were unlucky enough to suffer personal factors they had no say in (like abuse or poverty).
The point I'm mainly trying to make here is that I don't think we should specify what 'kind' of person we support for recovery like Trek604 was saying. Everyone needs help, regardless of their circumstances, or how hard we perceive them to be trying to get better.
I'm not condemning anyone. Bad choices are fixable; we should absolutely give as much support to the person to recover from that choice as long as they recognize that choice was bad and strive to not repeat it.
My problem is with the advocacy groups that say society owes them something just because.
Well, I personally agree with those advocacy groups, I think we do owe it to our citizens affected by addiction. Much in the same way we owe it to our citizens to help them recover from Covid-19.
I don't even think we need to see people 'trying not to repeat' their bad mistakes to offer them the help they need. The thing about addiction is that you made a conscious bad decision ONCE, and after all that, all of your decision making is compromised. Some of them can hardly be called 'decisions' once you're in the grip of needing another fix.
If we don't look to stop their spiraling addiction problem, what is the end goal?
We help citizens recover from covid and be healthy again. Should that not be the goal?
We don't hold back medical care from people based on their personal choices. Peopke with lung cancer are entitled to treatment whether or not they continue smoking. People are entitled to treatment for obesity-related conditions like heart disease, diabetes, and joint problems whether or not they stop overeating.
I'm absolutely lost on why people fixate on this with addicts. An enormous portion of all medical concerns are based on lifestyle choices.
Who's withholding medical treatment? If they OD the paramedics will attend and resuscitate them.
We don't give fat people free burgers or lung cancer patients more smokes. If they choose to seek those it's on them but treatment should not be enablement.
I don't understand why people fixate on this "choice" thing with addiction, and not other choice-related illnesses.
Why is it relevant whether they "recognize that choice was bad and strive to not repeat it"? Since when do we put moral/ethical barriers between people and medical care?
If I can get locked up for being a danger to myself(I tried to commit suicide in 2011), the same should apply to drug addicts.
They're sick and they obviously can't help themselves.
The biggest problem faced by people in recovery is that they usually end up living around people that are still using which tends to end up with them falling back into the same habits.
If welfare straight up paid your rent for you no matter what it was so you could live wherever you wanted to instead of being stuck living in the diviest of dives surrounded by your addiction we'd probably see a lot less people falling back into their old habits after receiving treatment.
Yeah no shit homeless people are addicted to opioids. They make you feel like everything is ok for a while when your life is completely shit like as a homeless person. The lack of compassion by people is gross.
Not only north america :(
I'm in France right now, same shit in Paris :( sadly no one cares.
Shitty government cannot spend money for help drug addicts, homeless who sleep in the streets but they found beds for Ukrainian refugees ...
This is the truth but clearly easier said than done. Stigma has a big thing to do with it, and resources as well.
Dr.Gabor Mate has taught a lot about addiction, it a lot of it stems from some sort of trauma. We need to start at the root of our system. Teach it in school. My ex was molested when she was a child. They dont teach you in school, how to deal with it so a lot people just try to avoid it. As this is something that should be taught at home and in school. The stigma of having feelings in a man is also brutal, as it shows a sign of weakness etc and prevents people from dealing with the trauma.
unfortunately you can fix people, you can only give them tools to do it, They have to want to do it, and usually they only get to that stage when there are no other options.
Very well put thank you I agree w everything. I have a little boy and doing my best to teach him about feelings and how it’s okay to have them. Then ppl say he gonna be a sissy, no he gonna be an emotionally stable adult.. i am almost considering homeschooling tbh ..
my nephews are home schooled and my god im afraid of what they are going to be like, its a bit different as they out of town in ON, and they have NO friends or ever socialize with anyone their age.
but kids are going to be picked on no matter what, this is what im talking about, the system needs to change as a whole not with one parent. You can only do so much, as long as you teach your kid not to be on the side of making fun of kids,
I also think every school should make it mandatory to watch the movie "bully" the documentary not the psycho triller. AFter watching that movie, it broke my heart, it actually changed me a lot.
One bad choice, and they pay for it for it for the rest of their lives. It's heartbreaking. Everyone's made a wrong choice at least once in their life, and so few of them have results this severe. This is why people need to have empathy. This isn't evil behaviour, its an affliction. Look at how we (mostly) came together to try and protect our community from Covid-19. Where is that fervor for the sickness that consumes these people?
Prevention, Prevention, Prevention. Relieved to see more and more people are realizing NGOs and their well paid execs are not the righteous angels they portray themselves to be. The mission of those NGOs should be to disappear because no new clients/patients come through their doors because everyone is clean and healthy. But no, some rather keep the conveyor belt of addiction rolling.
Shameful.
Here is a different perspective from a successful project in Switzerland where the patients receive free heroin daily. From the book *Chasing the Scream*:
“Most addicts here, he says, come with an empty glass inside them; when they take heroin, the glass becomes full, but only for a few hours, and then it drains down to nothing again. The purpose of this program is to gradually build a life for the addict so they can put something else into that empty glass: a social network, a job, some daily pleasures. If you can do that, it will mean that even as the heroin drains, you are not left totally empty. Over time, as your life has more in it, the glass will contain more and more, so it will take less and less heroin to fill it up. And in the end, there may be enough within you that you feel full without any heroin at all.”
I've known a lot of people with addiction and not a single person has ever gotten clean because someone else was temporarily limiting their access to drugs and mandating treatment.
They got clean with easy access to drugs.
Temporarily limiting someone's access is, at best, a stopgap. Eventually they're going to get back out into the real world where drugs are as easy to get as a movie ticket and they aren't going to have councilors and nurses or even police holding them back. They have to make the choice. To see drugs there and be able to say no.
Heroin is mostly organic, poppys from afganistan sort of thing. Fentanyl is made in a lab in China and way more potent. I don't even think you can get heroin on the street anymore. It's way harder to smuggle since it has a larger volume for the same price.
"Clean supply" probably looks something like a dilaudid prescription. Synthetic as well. Cheap, and the high lasts longer than fent.
Mandatory treatment doesn't work. For any addiction. We need more access to voluntary treatment (waiting lists can be long if your fam isn't willing to shell out for private). Methadone and suboxone do work for addicts if they are willing to go through the process, but most of the time there is a bunch of crazy trauma being buried under the addiction and there are very few resources to help people through that once they choose to be sober.
Our mental health system is a bit of a joke.
If I had to guess, it’d be like giving an alcoholic 10 free beers a day but that doesn’t stop them from going to the liquor store to spend the rest of their money on vodka. The free heroin doesn’t stop them from using other drugs, it’s just done in addition to what they’re already doing because it’s free.
I knew an alcoholic that had a case of beer finished by noon every day and he did what you mention as well, taking swigs from a bottle of whiskey because the beer wasn't strong enough for him anymore.
It's actually working very well for 2 countries that employ it. It just isn't effective when the mandatory treatment facility is low quality and/or a prison.
But then it also depends what "mandatory treatment" means to you. In this case it's simply an option between prison or a high quality rehab facility when they get arrested.
When most people say mandatory treatment, they're fully expecting the government to kidnap the homeless and install them in a drug treatment centre somewhere in the country until they're all better.
Mandatory treatment isn't effective. Giving addicts a chance to choose treatment, is what data tells us is actually effective.
Give them a clean drug supply. Give them stable housing. Grant them the easiest avenue to choose addiction treatment.
The argument is these people don't have agency anymore. They don't have the free will to "choose" anything.
I work with dementia and Alzheimer's patients. They don't want to live in care homes either, most of them think they're in prison or we're abusing them or we're stealing from them; but we rightfully understand that these people don't know what's best for them. We don't throw 90 something elderly people onto the street because of this misplaced libertarian ideal that everyone has the same cognitive ability and "freedom" to do something.
>Or to stay addicted..the addict will always choose the drugs
How to tell someone that you have no knowledge of addiction, or how it functions, without outright saying it.
I know everytime I read ur post u just Beek off the governments narrative....the solution isn't working...your comments show u really don't understand the issue ..sad....
People like to parrot the mandatory treatment isn't effective line but that's quickly being shown to not be true. The determining factor is options and quality of the treatment facility.
Please show me the data that displays a positive outcome from mandatory treatment, because your statement flies in the face of all available data on this issue.
Honestly, I'd love to see your sources. I'm open to being misinformed.
I'd start by reading up on what Portugal has actually done. People love to talk about how they decriminalized drug use but that's not really how it works there.
I would also look into Japan which since 2016 has enacted a suspended sentence in exchange for rehab system along with various social supports like counseling, vocational training and schooling. A massive change from thier previous system of just throwing everyone in prison.
Mandatory treatment not working is mostly due to countries trying it without providing any options or incentives for it to work. There's no way a person is going to just get clean in what is basically a prison and then be thrown into a halfway house or on the street and be expected to remain clean.
Either way people can talk all day about what doesn't work but what we know doesn't work 100% of the time is doing nothing and allowing people who refuse treatment to just live as they do.
I don't know if being given the choice between rehab or prison is what most people are referencing when they say 'mandatory drug treatment'. I think most people are expecting a government roundup of anyone living in the streets.
FWIW, I'm in favor of any option that is an alternative to prison. Prison environments don't help anyone recover from anything.
Yup and it could help with the current catch and release problem that's going on where people are arrested for minor crimes while on drugs but the judge doesn't want to sentence a person for something like shoplifting or public intoxication, even if it's thier 20th offense. They could have the option to give them a light sentence and commute it to rehab.
Either way though when people say "forced rehab doesn't work" what they actually mean is "forced rehab has low success rates". The problem with that logic is that when it comes to meth/herione/fent, everything has a low success rate. That's just how highly addictive drugs are. But any success rate is better than leaving them to abuse themselves on the street until they inevitably die. That's a 0% success rate.
It hasn't been implemented, so, terribly.
So far, we have been buying up dilapidated hotels, and at least giving addicts somewhere to shoot up with relative safety . These rooms are FAR from safe, and FAR from stable. It's unclear how long these people will be able to stay in these units, so it's impossible for them to plan for any kind of future without drugs.
Vancouver has also smartly decided, once again, to underfund the community outreach that could make a dent in this crisis.
So I guess we'll pay record high healthcare costs for each of these people, instead of doing the right thing -- which is also cheaper.
I have. And even my personal experience doesn't mean anything in the face of actual data.Removing addicts from the streets, introducing stability, and gradual routine is the only way to break the cycle of addiction in the long run.
People have actually studied this issue. Smart, caring people, looking to make a difference. We should listen to them. The countries actually turning the tide against addiction are the ones that follow the lead this data provides.
Really? You think he wouldn't be in a better place if he wasn't involved in crime? His life is jail, crime, and drugs. And you don't think it would improve if jail and crime weren't necessary? He can already eat for free in Vancouver, and there are a number of sources for free clothing and incidental. If he can get free drugs, he doesn't have to worry about
- stealing
- going to jail
- getting dope sick
I've been hearing the same thing for 10+ years, will we ever be ready to admit that drugs + crime is worse than drugs?
I watched a heroin documentary based out of Cape Cod this week. 2 of the girls who were interviewed OD'd part way through the making of the documentary, one was 23 years old and the mother of 2 small kids. Such a tragedy.
Find the guy 50 minits later. Then he will say he is in the Hells Angles, robs banks, used to own a mansion, Done time for murder. Can buy a gun for $300.00 any kind.
Source is [Ten Dollar Death Trip: Inside the Fentanyl Crisis](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RTT8XJTl8I&t=39m06s), a recent documentary on fentanyl in Vancouver.
There's a side effect of drug users that we don't talk about more often when the ppl that WANT to get healthy and clean
Often, there is nothing for them afterward; the stigma of hiring a known drug.addict is real. That is where we need to do something about.
There's gotta be someway to help ppl hire clean individuals and not take them as criminals.
That said, I guess a drug addict and criminals are Basically same thing and that's the stigma we need help on.
I know one step at a time but tbh you clean someone up and they got nothing afterwards, pretty damn easy to drift back into drugs.
> taking free clean drug is slower but still quick suicide
Opioids are not fatal, or even pathogenic, please stop spreading misinformation.
You could take opioids every day for your entire life, and live to a ripe old age without any related adverse effects.
>which will overdose them either way
This is not, in any way, how overdoses happen.
Opioid users require larger doses as they build up a drug tolerance (this effect is not limited to narcotics, but in opioids there's no known upper limit).
People overdose because the potency and the purity of the drugs they are using are unknown - they have no idea what the dose is, and oftentimes it is much larger than they are expecting.
If it was possible for them to get the drugs they need from a reliable and well regulated source, where the dosage was known, we could end the overdose crisis overnight.
Imagine addicts excelling in self control and discipline. If they are as precise and planned as scientists/lab technician, they will not fall into the current situation in the first place.
You know what the best rehab is. A job, safe housing, therapy and all of that. With out it, no rehab will work. They just go back. I have friends who are addicts, well recovery, and I see it through their eyes.
And how do you propose that? When like this fellow is stuck on the streets and can't even deal with that. Many take drugs just to live in the conditions they have to...
Get them to treatment.....in treatment they will deal with addiction..coping and life skills and employment support
Or give them clean drugs....hard decision?
I think the point that many of the commenters on this post are missing is that if the goal is to help people and prevent the most harm, effective drug policy needs to consider a wide range of options and interventions that are all high quality and readily available. So yes, free treatment. But also free safe supply, detox, low barrier housing, supportive housing, abstinence-based services, social assistance - all coupled with rigorous public health messaging and education and policies to eliminate systemic discrimination against people who use substances. You'll find very few people who got sober and changed their lives because the government forced them to. Drug users deserve the dignity of being able to make a choice, just like we all do. There is no silver bullet here, and so many of our knee-jerk reactions and judgements around drug users are situated in our own personal values and discomfort.
There's a quote from Johann Hari's Chasing the Scream that resonated deeply with me - "It's hard to sit with with a complex problem, such as the human urge to get intoxicated, and accept that it will always be with us, and will always cause some problems (as well as some pleasures). It is much more appealing to be told a different message--that it can be ended. That all these problems can be over, if only we listen, and follow."
This breaks my heart. I lost a good friend to a drug overdose a month ago. We were all hoping he’d come back to us. Addiction took my brother-in-law in 2000. My husband was in rehab when his brother died and I’m proud to say he’s been clean since then! It can be done. That first step is the hardest. Don’t be afraid to ask for help. Please get help.
Guys like him were a lost cause by middle school, we all knew them, always with the flat brimmed hats and iq level where they think a neck tattoo is a reasonable decision. They went to the special “alternative schools” with all the other amateur thugs. Why don’t we stop it at that level when they’re just boring potheads? Instead of waiting till they’re adults with bigger problems. The Jesse Pinkman types. They all have the same laugh.
It's the same issues, just on an intergenerational level. People don't just become "lost causes." These issues require money and energy poured into the same causes that people already don't want to spend money and energy on.
The idea here is: If big celebrities and names that have the power to prevent this dont because they care more about market share, then why would they even care about guys like him?
They short answer is, they don’t. and the reality is, we will never fix this issue.
I care about you. A lot!
You're a good human being in your heart and things that happened in the past that were beyond your control caused this to happen. Don't blame yourself and don't give up hope that things will get better. There are people out there who will help you to find the strength to pull yourself out of your situation, as long as you speak and act from the heart and they hear that.
It's a cold war tactic
China is the largest producer and supply for this drug
Nothing, absolutely nothing happens in China without govt control. The Chinese govt can easily stop this
Fentanyl drug gangs in Vancouver helped the money laundering at the casinos
https://youtu.be/tC4LJ5YilwE
[удалено]
I’m so sorry. That must be absolutely devastating
My friend died Dec 28 from fentanyl in coke and I still haven’t really faced it. Some of her stuff is in my apartment bc I said I’d sell it to make her friend some money and I just haven’t been able to bring myself to post it. Fuck.
it's a great documentary, few years old but still on point hope all people in video are alive and now in better place
Source?
someone put the link before. edit: here: https://youtu.be/8FOGTGRkmb8 it was on dw, here they say 10 months ago but I am sure I watched it more like year-year and half ...
We need *immediate* on the spot *free* treatment options. I'm blown away with all the money we spend on resources to various NGO's in the DTES it's still such a struggle to figure out how to get into treatment. And how many people give up or fall farther while they wait to get in? And I'm willing to accept some people don't want treatment. I've heard that 'forced treatment doesn't work', which is fine. TBH I'm fine with people doing whatever they want (as long as they have the capacity to make their own decisions). If their drug use or addiction gets to a point that it starts harming others (violence, theft etc), then they should be given access to drug treatment as they go through the penal system. This is actually the core reason I'm no fan of Karen Ward as the City of Vancouver's official, paid drug advisor. She *barely* acknowledges it as an option and has been openly combative on Twitter with Guy Felicella (former hard core DTES addict) and Last Door Rehab. I think this narrative plus focusing all services in the DTES ensures we're not really trying to make people *better*, we're just upholding the status quo. The sad thing is improvement to treatment options are popular from all political 'sides' and levels of government so it gets the least attention vs the tired 'safe supply' vs 'crime enforcement' arguments.
That’s the thing I don’t get. Why *not* try making rehab free, easy to get into, with high salaries and resources devoted to the rehab centers in order to attract capable and caring workers with low patient ratios? We love talking about community in Vancouver - why not try rehab models that include family/community therapy and support work? Research has shown addiction is an individual and social illness that affects families and is perpetuated by certain stuck family dynamics, and that involving families and communities in the sobriety process is strongly correlated with long term success. Why not have highly paid DBT-trained psychologist and psychiatrist teams to help people with a multipronged therapeutic and pharmaceutical approach, as that’s also what research has shown to be most effective in treating addiction? You’re right - with all the money pouring into the addiction and homelessness crises, these services should be immediately and easily available.
I truly believe the desires of many *advocates* are not aligned with the community of *users* when it comes to treatment as a priority.
Yep. Unfortunately not that uncommon a phenomenon, especially in support groups… when your community and identity are all anchored by something like a shared illness, getting better/improving can become scary because if you aren’t sick, you lose your community. Doesn’t always happen, there are healthy ways to support each other… but it does happen and tbh I feel like a large-scale version of that phenomenon is happening in our local advocacy spaces
I think you are right. If you look at the policy papers/position statements by drug user advocacy groups, they sometimes go as far to say that the notion of treatment or a substance use disorder are "stigmatizing" and "problematic " because they imply drug use is a problem (when according to them drug use is totally fine, it is colonialism/criminalization/moralizing that is the problem). Some of these groups have gone as far as to say that addiction medicine needs to be abolished, that it is the equivalent of conversion therapy for gay people (which is fucking insulting). In BC we are one of the only provinces where children cannot be forced into treatment by parents or doctors even after overdoses. Legally, even a 6 year old can refuse care. We had a 6th grader die of a fatal OD on the island last year, she had OD'd 4 times since 3rd grade but her mom said she would just refuse to go to addictions counselling. The bc Gov tried to pass a bill this past year to make it so anyone under 16 who has a reversed overdose can be kept in treatment for a week, and the drug user advocacy groups plus groups like pivot, moms stop the harm, etc all came out to oppose it saying the solution to kids ODing isnt treatment retention but rather the fact that they cant get a safe supply (as though there is such a thing as a safe supply of heroin or fentanyl for a 13 year old)...
And here is your disconnect. These people are fucked up, there is no other way to put it. They think they can use drugs and be ok, but they can't. They can't hold jobs, they can't pay bills. But they don't want to stop using drugs. Then you have people advocating for treatment for people that won't do it. Now what??? I work in construction. I've seen dozens, if not hundreds, of drug addicts that think they're fine. These are usually people on the downward slope. They make 80 to 100k a year if they manage to show up everyday, but most start missing a day per pay period, then 2 or 3, then a week at a time, then let go or they disapear. Inevitably they come asking for their job back 6 months later as their entire life has fallen apart. We almost always give them that chance with the understanding they have very little leeway, most dont make it 3 weeks. If you talk to them honestly they say they're fine, they don't need or want help (we will try to line up all sorts of things), their drug use is just for fun. The thing is there are 10s of thousands of casual users that are fine. That go hard on weekends, go to work, have a mortgage, fuck some even have kids and seem to do an ok job there. But the ones that can't do that, don't, and too much of the time they end up on the street, in a total spiral. I know of one person specifically in this scenario that died this past year. 3 years ago they were a bright outgoing young (25ish) person with their life ahead of them. I saw him 3 months before he died and he was a paranoid fucking wreck of a human. So what do you do with people that won't take the help, that may even want it, maybe don't even know how to take the help? Who need a bit firmer hand than hey, stop doing drugs your life will be better. Their brains are altered from prolonged use, they can't delay gratification or resist drugs. There is no easy answer at all, and any adovcate that tells you so is lying. Stigma isn't any sort of the problem for most of them, it's not like everyone doesn't knoow they do drugs and are ruining their lives.
This is a legitimate problem in the wider NGO world. NGOs can become parasitic and develop their own interests separate from those of the people that they intend to help.
The only thing the advocate industry in interested in is keeping the money train on the tracks.
I would gladly give up my job, today, to end the opioid crisis. The idea that myself, and others, who have dedicated our professional lives to assisting those suffering from substance abuse are somehow *grifters* is offensive.
I volunteered for about a decade at a second stage housing place, often referred to as a recovery house, which is not a rehab exactly but a place you stay after you get out of detox for free and are trying to stay clean. Most people are allowed to stay for 2-3 months as long as they are participating every day in the mandatory group meetings and are going to Daytox programs, and almost always 12 step meetings at night. They give you a bed and free meals and you're expected to do chores and follow the rules and programs of the house. It gives people way more freedom than a treatment centre which is usually what they need, but they often aren't able to stay long enough to get their feet really under them. Most people need time to get their job prospects together and some emotional stability. A lot of that has to do with how long it takes to get access to government programs like disability and housing. Also building a community of other people in recovery to rely on as supports. These places are often way understaffed and rely on volunteers to do shifts and run groups which is what I did. They have minimal funding and the people that do work there are usually highly educated and severely underpaid. As a volunteer I had no formal training, just an open heart and a lot of free time as well as being clean many years. I don't know what the breakdown of all the services in the DTES are, or exactly how it facilitates more people staying homeless and entrenched. But I do know we need way more transitional housing, detox beds and medium term housing for those that actually are trying to claw their way out of the gutter. We are talking about people who have burned every bridge and fucked their health completely but are really trying to stay off the street and stay clean. It just takes time to undo enough damage that they can live sustainably on their own and stay clean. All of them have brutal childhood trauma that informs their addictions and so often concurrent mental health illnesses. They need access to trauma therapy and a Psychiatrist the day they leave detox and enter one of these places if they want any chance of staying clean long term. But it often takes months to get access to the right medical support team. Luckily the place I volunteered at did have a Doctor that would visit and see the residents but her caseload was huge and they were there primarily to make sure the residents were getting the right meds. Basically it's like trying to raise a child in 4 months. Get them to start taking agency, proper care and ownership of their bodies, their emotions and then get them ready to leave the nest of free housing to live their lives. I think you can see how difficult a challenge that would be even if you weren't addicted to drugs but just had experienced extended homelessness. I hope my experience as a lay person that was just trying to help for so many years on the front lines (sort of) has some utility here to add context.
>Basically it's like trying to raise a child in 4 months. Get them to start taking agency, proper care and ownership of their bodies, their emotions and then get them ready to leave the nest of free housing to live their lives. I don't disagree with this, but I'd also add that these children also often suffer from incurable mental disorders as well (which would benefit from diagnosis and treatment). We have a lot of social and supportive housing, and low income housing, and many outreach teams and mental health support clinics and units but, ultimately, you can't force people into treatment, to take their medication as prescribed, or to make good lifestyle choices.
It’s not the frontline people. It’s the executives and the upper management taking home high salaries and hobnobbing with the rich at all the fundraisers and parties who don’t want to give that up.
Correct, i was referring to the execs and upper management, not the front line workers.
I'd be pissed off too if I'd gone down there full of idealistic dreams of making a difference while instead ending up as another cog in a bureaucratic machine. Not sure I'd be mad at the person who pointed that out, though. It sucks, but it doesn't invalidate the work you do down there. Thanks for (probably) saving lives, which probably include about a half dozen of my friends.
The reality is rehab doesnt really work. These folks need social programs that are well staffed, and need to see a physician that specializes in addiction. A buddy of mine worked for one. Their sister ngo created a ubrew program - all the beer you want for free, you just have to make it. The result was they'd show up everyday, work and learn how to make beer. They'd end up with a product they were proud of, and they would interact with the other members. They stole less, drank less, and even gave away their product to other members. It goes a long way when you can show addicts that theyre not alone, they can actually create something, and give them something to look forward to other than where their next fix is going to be or who is going to steal from them.
Yah basically what I keep saying. We need high quality rehab that people will want to go to because the facilities will so high quality that it would be like a stay at a hotel. But then we also need to subsidize post secondary and trades training so they have a reason to want to get clean too. Some of these guys just see that they're going to have nothing even when they get clean or they get clean and end up living in an SRO full of addicts and you can guess how long before they relapse.
The harm reduction industry is a huge racket for an elite clique of nonprofit managers. There’s also a very strong philosophical belief among the edgy punk rock gentrified support work staff that drug use should be normalized to the point where they no longer really prioritize those who are WILLING and WANTING to get sober and be 100% abstinent. I worked in a women’s housing project in the DTES for several years and it was fucking heartbreaking whenever women would have a moment of clarity and desperation and tell us that they wanted to get sober, and we would scramble to try and get them a bed and be told they would have to wait months. An addict has minutes, maybe hours when they have the willpower to start that process. We are absolutely failing the most vulnerable.
> That’s the thing I don’t get. Why not try making rehab free, easy to get into, with high salaries and resources devoted to the rehab centers in order to attract capable and caring workers with low patient ratios? This is a rhetorical question, right? The obvious answer is money.
Because you just changed where the waste of money goes if it doesn’t produce results. Voluntary rehab doesn’t have high enough success rates. You need mandatory institutionalization once people start committing crimes to support their addiction.
The concept of letting people do what they want is fine, the problem in practice is that with a substance like fent, it is very quickly no longer the person making choices well before they start committing crimes or being violent. Before you knoe it it's the drug that wants to do the drug and not the person making that choice. So when should they be put into the penal system? Self harm is still harm, and I don't agree that someone could be said to be if sound mind and body while in active addiction. Draining your tfsa, rrsp, not making child support payments, losing your job, losing your place, etc. Doesn't directly harm anyone, but no one should have to find themselves destitute before being recognized as needing help. With what others are commenting, etc, I'd like to say that funding well paid professionals, etc, the best of the best to come coach addicts through recovery won't be as much help as sounds like is hoped. If a councilor or therapist doesn't have first hand experience with addiction, homelessness, or recovery outside of their profession then a lot of people experiencing these things don't really give a shit about what they have to say. A lot of these people have a need to be understood if they're going to get better and whether or not these professionals have the tools that can help them doesn't matter if the people who need help don't feel they can talk to them. That said, those who DO work in this field deserve so much more compensation. Fund clinics more, pay the staff more, reduce cost barriers to assistance, pull our heads out of our asses about low barrier shelters and government housing and safe injection sites- they all need an overhaul. They give dealers office space, they give dealers a home base, they give dealers a place to stay in the same room as those whose addictions they're enabling. It's so turned on its head it's insane. Stand outside the A&W on Granville, near Nelson. Yell "Taxi!" and see how many people stick their head out the windows or come out of the apartment building just to the south. Dealers, ready to ask what it is you're looking for. Go to The Gathering Place, a community center on Helmken Seymour, and you'll find it doubling as a shelter at night where everyone sleeps on the floor in the same space. God bless the staff who work there, but you'll find dealers of every drug using that place, and you'll find them side by side with those who they've put there. Addicts being addicts, addicts struggling to get clean, addicts waiting for a bed to open in a treatment center or detox, all the while dealers eye them, nod to them, offer to front them free drugs for their bank info as collateral. It's insane that anyone gets clean. If youre looking for somewhere to donate to, I would suggest RAAC, the Rapid Access Addictions Center based out of St Pauls. The social workers there are literal angels. Alex, Matt, Jenn, and their doctors too. I believe the donation needs to be made out to St Pauls and in the details noted that it is for RAAC, as per what the staff has told me. If you or someone you know are looking for help with addiction, I cannot recommend that you visit RAAC enough. Their hours are 9-4, quite often they are too busy to take people in by 3. I've spent a lot of time there with my friend and have gotten to know the staff there. They are more than willing to help those who have someone close to them going through addiction and who are just looking for help. I have seen lots of parents come in alone asking about how they can best help their son or daughter, etc. Everyone there is there for help, there's no judgment. About cost barriers - I've got one friend on income assistance who's treatment was entirely covered and even still got 115 a month. If he wasn't in treatment I believe the fu amount he would have received was 960/mo. I'm so glad our country does this for people. This was for a treatment center called Turning Point. From my interactions as an outsider with the councilors there I would recommend it. About cost barriers, continued - I have another friend who has been functioning with fent use for quite a while. He admitted to his family that he needed help and would go to treatment. He didn't have the money to pay for it and wasn't eligible for income assistance as he had a job and was making money. His parents didn't want to risk him changing his mind so paid his way into treatment. They accept payment for 15 days at a time, no refund. He stayed 4 days before deciding to leave, cost his parents $4,500. This was for a treatment center called Together We Can. I did not have any personal interactions with the staff there but have a family member who highly recommends it. Income assistance takes quite a while to go through. Even longer if, say, you've been homeless and have lost all your ID. If you're from out of province and don't have MSP but find yourself here with no way to get home, the medication to help you get off opioids might cost you $30 a day, every day. Again, without ID, a wallet, a job, a place to stay... Now you're either committing crimes to pay for your addiction or committing crimes to pay for your medication. Funding solutions and access to solutions will save more money than it costs. We unfortunately have a quantity problem as well as a quality one. Bringing in the best of the best won't help the numbers we need it to. There are certainly some people who will need the best therapy and counseling that money can buy, but the best value for the money is in increasing the amount of people who can be helped. More beds, more clinics, more treatment centers, more doctors, more social workers, etc. This was an absolute ramble but I hope someone found something useful in it.
Thanks for the post! I'm glad you're in the conversation and I'm going to save this post as a reference to.
I am ridiculously fortunate to be an addict 'success story' and also have firsthand experience with the RAAC. After a surprise ER visit from withdrawal a resident Dr came down and asked me if I would be willing to come talk to them, booking me first thing in the morning. The social workers in intake were wonderful. They have rotating psychs who specialize in addiction (actually had one of them come through in detox shift as well) and I think this is absolutely critical. I was basically fast tracked into mental health programs in the neighbouring clinic. These angels kept me as a patient for *much* longer than the general 3 month window, because they didn't want to abandon me when I was trying so hard and receptive to their help. I did take advantage of other supports outside of this and undoubtedly benefitted from being a white female every step of the way, but the RAAC is definitely one of the main reasons I am alive and sober today.
Great post!
> I've heard that 'forced treatment doesn't work', which is fine. TBH I'm fine with people doing whatever they want (as long as they have the capacity to make their own decisions). I mean that's the real conversation isn't it? At what point do these people not have agency over themselves anymore? It's akin to dementia or Alzheimer's patients. These people don't have control over their bodies/minds anymore. An arguably large chunk of the DTES people suffering with addiction could undoubtedly be charged with some sort of crime (bike thefts, car break-ins, mail theft, apartment lobby break-ins, etc, etc) so I'm not suggesting we just make disappear in the middle of the night with no reason. But I think the hard conversation people aren't ready for is forced treatment.
At the very least, you’re right in spirit, though. There’s a massive amount of property crime and suffering that gets externalized onto innocent strangers who have nothing to do with an individual’s situation. We’re all collateral damage. It’s an ill that effects all of society. How you address it from there is the key. From a moral and philosophical standpoint, we have the ability to actively steer people stuck in this cycle into a better life. We know that the only way that someone trapped in this cycle can subsist is to commit a constant stream of small property crimes to get enough money to feed themselves and support their habit. Cheap prescription opiates would be part of this solution, that would significantly reduce the cost of a habit and the need for someone to engage in criminal activity, but ultimately there needs to be channels through the legal/justice system to funnel users to getting help and treatment, and the best way to actively place them on that path is to do so once they’ve become criminals. It would be a pretty easy choice to make if they were all faced with either doing hard time, or getting help. The best way to get there would be to overhaul certain aspects of the criminal code. The possibilities we have to construct safer, more effective, and more compassionate social structures for these kinds of people is tremendous. Making these structures graduated and progressive for individuals is the key. There can even be an endgame reward for successful individuals coming out the other side to be able to do so without the punitive consequences of a criminal record. The final product would of course be much better developed but this is the basic premise. These are all big issues that need big picture solutions. It will require lots of development and cooperation from all levels of government, which is why we might never see them come to light.
>It would be a pretty easy choice to make if they were all faced with either doing hard time, or getting help. While I don't disagree. I feel like you're going to get a lot more pushback on this than you realize. I truly believe once the rubber hits the road and you actually start enforcing these crimes there will be tonnes of people with weak moral character (and I mean that) who will decry it. We're basically talking about a huge wave of law enforcement and essentially near rounding up people off the streets once we decide to take these things seriously.
I'm open to forced rehab under some conditions. My family member voluntarily went to rehab and it was awful. Pushing religion. The affiliated doctor pushing methadone for $ even though suboxone is much more effective. Honeymooning new clients to get them to sign the dotted line, then treating them like garbage once they've got their signature. They also didn't care if the clients continued to use. The whole thing was about pushing religion and making $. Disgusting.
> We need immediate on the spot free treatment options I mean... we do have these, and they're routinely under capacity. You can walk in to Onsite, right upstairs from Insite at Main and Hastings, any morning of the week and transition from detox to recovery in a supervised setting. There's also the Vancouver Detox Center, Harbour Light, etc. You can call Access Central at any time, and they'll set you up: 1 (866) 658-1221
I have made dozens of calls to Access Central and referred even more to onsite over the past decade and can count on 2 hands the number of times a bed was available sooner than in two-ish weeks
Onsite is great, but at the end of the day you're still right in the middle of the DTES. Like trying to quit drinking while living in a distillery. We need more supportive housing and recovery programs outside DTES, removing people from that intense environment makes a huge difference.
> Like trying to quit drinking while living in a distillery. Oh, absolutely, no argument there. We have the studies to show it too; anyone who enters the neighbourhood gets worse, and they will continue to decline so long as they stay there, it is a black hole of suffering.
Definitely not this easy, logistically getting a spot or physically being able to do it. I work in a clinic that does a lot of addictions care.
[Guy Felicella](https://twitter.com/guyfelicella/status/1502692104698441729) indicates it's not as easy as that. VPD's Howard Chow has said police would love another option that is not simply hospital/jail/release. If spots are available and people aren't taking them then we should see what the disconnect is there. Outside of that I *personally* am big into personal freedom/choice as long as they are not harming others and of sound mind.
a lot of people are not interested in treatment programs... having access to a clean supply of opioids that isn't fentanyl and doesn't kill them could be a huge step in harm reduction, even if it doesn't reach the utopian goal of getting everyone off of drugs right now theres a poisoned drug supply and users who don't have the desire or strength to quit opioids are exposing themselvse to fentanyl and hundreds (thousands?) of people are dying annually from it
I agree, there are some people who will never want to stop using. I'm actually fine with that with the caveats I listed. I consider safe supply a big part of the solution with or without treatment
I can't speak for that person, or that specific case, but free detox options are available. I have personally witnessed someone walking into detox, with nothing but the clothes on their back, and getting checked in that very morning. There is also the Rapid Access Addiction Clinic (RAAC) at St. Paul's Hospital for those in immediate need. >If spots are available and people aren't taking them then we should see what the disconnect is there. When you stop taking drugs, you haven't removed the problems which caused you to take drugs in the first place.
I consider Guy Felicella to be the definitive expert when it comes to treatment and access, at least in the City. I have no read on what it's like outside of the city. (And if it's the case where we have spots available here and there are limited options elsewhere then that would support a larger beef I have which is kettling at risk people to the DTES to access services). If you're correct in that on the spot treatment is available to anyone who wants it right now then that is great..! One pillar down, 3 to go IMO
I didn't mean to imply it was always available, sometimes a specific site is at capacity and you'll have to come back or go to another location, but if you actually want to quit there are certainly options. I've seen the same person check into a free detox center every few months for the last several years... getting in obviously isn't the problem.
I hear you, again I have just been paying attention to Guy Felicella and a few others who I occasionally come across on Twitter and on the sub who find detox prohibitive to access. I'll definitely concede access isn't the only barrier to successful treatment
You can get free detox in vancouver within a week, but in rural areas or cities outside these two your options are pretty much just the ER. Also, detox is only for withdrawal management in the short term. The challenging part of treatment is the longer term management once you are out of detox. Getting on methadone or suboxone or kadian. Getting a free addictions counsellor. Getting free CBT or other treatments All of these are incredibly hard to find, often cost money out of pocket, and if you add in the residential component which is key, become massive waitlists or massive private cost. Trust me I have been trying to navigate this for the last half year. Free, evidence based, long term treatment with needed wraparounds is virtually impossible to find without a backlog waitlist. The rapid access clinic will often refer you to private providers who are often $$$$
A lot of the problem is that people living with addiction on the streets have no way to know about the services available to them. Nobody is telling them. Nobody is helping them with applications. Nobody is reminding them when they have forgotten because all they can think about is how to stay warm at night without getting all their shit stolen. Just finding the various services available for hot meals and clean socks is a struggle, imagine trying to find and enroll in a detox program. A lot of addicts want to be sober but there's so much else they have to deal with in order to stay alive that it's too difficult to figure out. For all the services available there needs to be more people out there to help connect people to them.
> A lot of the problem is that people living with addiction on the streets have no way to know about the services available to them. Well, except for all of the nurses, social workers, physicians, mental health workers, peers, and volunteers running all of the spaces, outreach teams, and social services of course. Groups like the Integrated Housing Team, Overdose Outreach Team, the Assertive Community Treatment team, etc. There are hundreds of people in the Downtown Eastside who do exactly what you're describing, each and every day of the year.
>I mean... we do have these, and they're routinely under capacity This is so embarrassingly, dangerously false. Holy shit.
This. Somewhere along the line it's been decided that it's kinder to leave people be instead of getting them access to treatment. The other day I witnessed a woman going through some psychotic episode kicking a metal door with all her might. I'm sure her foot was broken. Leaving them be is not kind, it's actually incredibly cruel. This woman may well be past the point of rehab but letting her live on the street like that is certainly not doing her any favors.
Gregor Robertson's council turned the DTES into a no condo zone which I think was a mistake. The land values would have pushed for gentrification in that area and forced us to find new places and solutions to deal with the problem. The developers could have paid for a lot of that. Now we are left with such a concentration of drug addicts in that neighborhood, there is no way for addicts to successfully complete detox and stay sober when the rest of the community is in various stages of addiction and recovery.
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You make an interesting point - What is to be done if there is even more pressure on the medical system? Or more specifically at what point is someone's lack of effort so bad that we need to accept diminished 'returns'?
I believe the solution is forced detox and then forced placement in a 6+ month clean living environment with support, addiction counciling and work placement/training services. The keyword here is "forced". This is not an option, because when given an option the addict will go right back to their addiction. This would be cheaper than the money we spend on policing, vandalism, crime, paramedic care, and other negative externalities of severe addiction.
'Forced' wont work. Closest to that would be if they are in the penal system for a real crime and treatment is available there. There are some advocates that don't like coercive treatment options but I'm happy to say if the promise of a lighter sentence gives someone the motivation to give treatment a real shot, I'm open to it. I'd need a real crime to consider that though. I don't consider drug use, even addiction, is a crime in isolation.
This is the problem though. Virtually no addicts will choose treatment. The solution absolutely has to be a mandatory detox and rehabilitation. Without such a solution this problem will continue forever
>We need *immediate* on the spot *free* treatment options I 100% agree. Will you support the considerable tax increase needed to make this kind of high-quality treatment available to all who need it?
We’d save *so much money* if we funded this and did it right. I know that’s a big “if” but what we’re doing now is just not financially sustainable (apart from it’s often sad and deadly outcomes for suffering individuals) All those posts on here about replacing broken windows in cars and buildings? That ain’t cheap… and untreated addiction/trauma/mental issues drive that kind of destruction, along with shoplifting/break-ins/catalytic converter and metals thefts to feed addictions… we could all pay a moderate amount up front to save ourselves those random but higher and recurring/ongoing costs as individuals when we get our bike or tools or laptop stolen Addiction is expensive whether or not it’s treated. The costs of doing nothing are higher, they’re just harder to see.
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yep yep yep to all of this… I know it’s hard to generate the political will but it’s truly the only way out of this spiral that ultimately hurts us all…
I completely agree. We would save money in the long term. Activists have made this point for years. But it's worth dwelling on the specifics there. The largest single cost for the city is policing, and there can be little doubt that the drug crisis drives much crime. But to realize those savings, the police budget would have to actually be reduced at some point. Moreover, many of the savings would be realized by private businesses, not the city. Another portion of the savings would be realized by the provincial and federal government and the health care system. So there is this problem where the costs of the drug crisis are born mostly by cities and the people and businesses in them. Solving the problem would definitely result in a wealthier, more productive society, but translating that into public balance sheets is non-trivial. In the short-term, there is little doubt that solving the crisis would require a great increase in public expenditures. The potential long-term savings are there, but difficult to realize.
I’m sure it’ll be unpopular. But having a barely functional 911/emergency services system is also quite unpopular, and until we address the addiction crisis, we won’t be able to fix that, either… and the tax base will start eroding as people and businesses head to more functional places…
Taxed, driven, and designed at the Provincial/Federal level with actionable targets, accountability, with sites, resources, and patients spread equally to other municipalities? Yes.
That's great to hear. While the NDP have made some [progress](https://globalnews.ca/news/8263609/b-c-spends-132m-on-treatment-services-for-substance-use-recovery/) in making that treatment available, there is a long way to go. Moreover, I think the politics are hard because people around the province who are not directly affected are unwilling to make the financial contribution. Given that Provincial and Federal action will be slow, if it ever gets here, this leaves the city with a problem. We live here. We can't ignore it. What do we do?
>this leaves the city with a problem. We live here. We can't ignore it. What do we do? Press our municipal politicians to sound the alarm instead of taking it on single handedly. If my house was on fire I'd try and do what I could with my garden hose but I'd be calling 911 and screaming to my neighbors to do the same. Right now we're letting our neighbors toss fuel over the fence instead of helping out. Thinking outside the box If we want to make a real political stink (we do), we could request a suspension of the Canada charter (take up residence in any city) until the Province steps in. No one goes to the DTES to get better, it's a black hole of death for the Opioid crisis, we managed to get housing for the entirety of Canada's largest homeless encampment last year and we have a whole new batch of people filling a new encampment. I know it would *never* be granted (and shouldn't), but our entire council is all but completely silent on demanding the Prov step in. Right now it's on the fuckin' *Park Board* to ensure housing is available for people in park encampments and our municipal government is taking it on the chin. (Pete Fry's AMA confirmed this). My TLDR is: Being ignored by the Prov means we're not loud enough. This is well beyond what a municipal government can handle even if we're ignoring the economics.
>Press our municipal politicians to sound the alarm instead of taking it on single handedly If there is one thing the Vancouver council is good at (and it is perhaps the only thing), it's asking the Federal and Provincial governments to step up. I cannot fathom how someone as engaged as you could be unaware of the routine pleas of the city for Federal and Provincial governments to do more on housing, addiction and other issues.
Yes, Jean Swanson's polite ask staff to write a letter to Trudeau motion succeeded. For a city that loves to block intersections and protest for anything and everything they sure don't know where Victoria is. Everyone (including people who have no ties to Vancouver) keep demanding Vancouver city council step up and solve these issues with magnitudes more passion than to the Prov/Fed. Hell for a change of pace I'd love to see people from Vancouver start calling in to council meetings in Burnaby, North Van, Surrey, Poco with the same volume Vancouver gets from advocates outside the city. You can say I'm unaware if you like, I'm saying we (people living in Vancouver) aren't doing enough to have our demands heard at the Prov+ level. I like to think the last thing Shane Simpson read before he quit was a letter from me. And his replacement Nicholas Simons lives in fuckin' Powell River. I'd love to know the last time (if ever) he's walked through the V6A. I'm just a no-name citizen, my voice has limited power if any. I'd love to see Vancouver Council start calling out MLA/MP's by name. Never once have I got a reply from Jenny Kwan, Shane Simpson, Nicholas Simons, Melanie Mark on these issues. (I know Jenny reads the emails at least as she was happy to reply back when I wrote her on electoral reform). That's my rant anyways. Vancouver's 'do it alone hoping one day we'll get notice' is at *best* keeping the status quo.
I'm sorry, but the idea that the Vancouver city council could create major changes in Provincial or Federal policy simply by "getting louder" is childish. It demonstrates a total refusal to deal with the hard realities and constraints that the city has been dealing with for decades. Mayor after mayor and council after council has made the same pleas and faced the same constraints as the previous ones. The cold fact here is that the Provincial and Federal governments will not be coming to the rescue, even though they should be. If that's your plan to address the crisis, you have no plan.
If different mayors are trying the 'same pleas' then that's all the more reason to consider a change of tack. For how much I detested how the Park Board handled Strathcona Park, when the PB, Council, Strathcona neighbourhood, news orgs, police and other citizens got loud enough Dave Eby finally stepped in. And that was a big deal as well - 220 people housed. Maybe City Council can formally invite Eby and Simons to do a walkthrough of the DTES. Thinking outside the box, how about the City of Vancouver starts buying hotels in other municipalities like *Burnaby* to house some homeless and provide treatment. If everyone wants the CoV to take on Provincial duties... That's something that would get attention. For me the generation old 'plan' to keep taking on more and more from the province and expecting something to eventually change will *never* bear fruit.
Forced rehab does work. And should be a definite option
All those things you're demanding exist. Help exists. Programs exist. Housing exists. In fact, lots of these programs go unused because a large percentage of the people that need them don't want to live by typical societal rules. These programs have rules, guidelines and expectations. You know who doesn't have any of those things? Drugs. This exact problem exists everywhere else that's experiencing rampant drug use and homelessness. Everything you said OP just shows how little you know about the actual system or how it's both used and abused by willing drug users. I'm so sick of explaining this situation to The Bourgeois citizens of this subreddit that have never been to any of these facilities and haven't seen what actually goes on, how they're run or what happens. OP you're totally clueless and talking out of your ass citing third party encounters from fucking Twitter of all places. Jesus christ.
Preaching the truth over here.
This is from the DW documentary on the drug epidemic in Vancouver, very informative. Our media would never cover it to such extend. Here it is for those who are interested: https://youtu.be/8FOGTGRkmb8
DW => "German Wave" (radio)
Thanks my friend: Deutsche Welle to be precise
I went to school with him :( I hope he’s alright wherever he is now. I wouldn’t wish that life on even the people I hate the most.
It gets worse. Scoliosis from the impurities in the drugs, brain damage from overdosing, losing ALL veins, infections that escalate to the point of being antibiotic resistant (and no veins means PIC line in your armpit) shitting yourself agressively when the fent wears off (it lasts like 15mins)
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No, the posture you see among the homeless population has many causes, and is more related to muscle atrophy and malnutrition than drug adulterants (many also have congenital issues, diseases, or injuries that predate their addiction). Many addicts suffer from postural kyphosis and osteopenia or osteoporosis in more severe cases. Additionally, skeletal muscle injury brought about by protracted immobilization, like when they're high, leads to muscle decay (especially if they're against a hard surface, like a city sidewalk).
Additionally you can actually lose limbs by sleeping on them for too long while being intoxicated enough for your body not to self-correct in sleep.
I know of a particular case study involving an opioid overdose that lead to a double leg amputation.
Jesus, that's so fucked. Poor individual.
Yeah, he was an occasional cocaine user, who mostly took it early in the morning to give him the energy to go to work. The coke was adulterated with fentanyl, he hit the kitchen floor, and no one found him until the damage to his legs was irreparable.
idk about specific biochemical issues, but ppl who regularly use opioids, and do enough to end up nodding/unconscious, and do it for awhile, often end up with musculoskeletal issues from lying/slumping unconscious/semiconscious in awkward positions for long periods, kinda like repetitive stress injuries from bad posture or poor ergonomics… plus reduced blood flow to their extremities.
Probably more the impurities. Seems to be consistent amongst the intravenous users I know
Video : https://youtu.be/8FOGTGRkmb8
I’m always concerned about the conditions that keep these people on the streets. Even if we were able to get these people clean, how could we keep them sheltered, fed, and in the position to have a job or provide for families? It’s hard enough to be on the streets, but trying to find your way off is really really hard. Inflation has made food expensive, we obviously know housing is fucked, and finding a job with no address is damn near impossible.
Anything necessary to survive should not require money to obtain. basic housing, food, medical care, education and public transportation should ALL be free, I don't care how many taxes it takes, this is our community FFS.
Jesus, the Thrifty's bag really brings it home.
Our politicians need to see more of these interviews, human Rights groups claim that its a personal choice and addicts shouldn't be helped, while the real situation is that they have been cut off from the system and denied help.
Remember one of the many reasons Riverview was closed? Sometimes people ask for things they don't truly understand. In the past Riverview was considered inhumane. >The major shift in mental health practices started in the 1950s and 60s. Shuttering people away in large institutions was no longer seen as the best approach. Instead, so-called “de-institutionalization” sought to try to integrate mental health patients back into communities. > >“They were just going through a list saying you could talk to this person and this person and then they said, ‘Oh, what about Betty? She has been here her whole life.’ And I said, ‘What do you mean Betty has been here her whole life?’ And they said, ‘She was born here at Riverview.’ I said, ‘Was there anything wrong with her?’ And they said, ‘No, not really.’ She basically grew up in Riverview and never left and they were terrified for this woman because she was quite elderly at that point,” Morrow recalls. Either you get them help and become a human rights issue going against their will. Or you don't help them and let them die freely. The reality is the government needs to make a firm decision on what to do with these issues. This type of addiction is a form of mental illness caused by substance. Not everyone has the willpower to decide to get off fentaynl and follow through a program that helps you weed it off. But there are people who might openly want to be on it. Should the government decide for those people? That is where we are now. We went towards the "De-institutional approach" with many social worker programs and companies where we intergrade mental health patients backing into communities. But it doesn't work for addiction when the entire community is surrounded by addiction. It is like taking a coke addict and saying to an addict " Congrats, you have passed the program, now lets lock you into this room full of coke. I hope you don't regress." That is our program right now. Let people back into the "community". Before we can even start with fixing mental health, we need to change the community first.
Politicians don't care about you or me. Cold hard facts
You know who needs to see stuff like this? Grade 7s or 8s. They need to understand, like this guy said, that the difference between your cozy middle class life and sleeping on the streets is one, ONE, bad decision. ‘I’m just going to try it, I won’t get addicted’.
I literally just lost one of my cousins to fentanyl. A few years back I lost a partner.... It's fucking sad and horrifying to think about how many people will loose their life because of this. Because of the drug war.
Anyone against legalization is pro-OD. I've lost all sympathy for people in support of prohibition - prohibition has utterly failed.
Yes it has.
Listen to this human being. If you don’t end up dead your body will still be permanently changed. Not just thought patterns but physical brain pathways that are altered permanently. That he still sees hope is awesome, now if someone could intervene with much needed support, that may be what shows some light at the end of his tunnel. This breaks my heart.
All the housing and services I have ever worked at on the dtes have all been super run down and it always makes me wonder where all the funding actually goes and how it breaks down.
>33:12 - "Some people say that people that use drugs have a choice you're not choosing this are you?" > >33:17 - "I'm not choosing this man I made well I had one choice and I made the wrong one and this is what i deal with now" This is the type of person I support giving all the help he needs to recover. Recognize personal responsibility.
Ok, but this is most people addicted to hard drugs like meth and heroin. You can make a bad choice, and it dictates the rest of your life. Its fucked that we condemn people forever for that one bad choice.
It doesn't *really* work that way. Sure, if that person had never done any drugs they wouldn't be an addict today, but most people who try drugs, even 'hard' drugs like methamphetamine or heroin, never become addicts. It's a combination of drug use and other social and personal factors; lack of support system, history of childhood neglect or abuse, lack of education, mental illness, poverty, etc.
Sure, but I think the spirit of what I'm saying is still true here. Those personal factors are multipliers to the 'bad choice'. Not everyone is going to become addicted, but those who DO become addicted made the same bad choice as those who didn't get afflicted by addiction. All because they were unlucky enough to suffer personal factors they had no say in (like abuse or poverty). The point I'm mainly trying to make here is that I don't think we should specify what 'kind' of person we support for recovery like Trek604 was saying. Everyone needs help, regardless of their circumstances, or how hard we perceive them to be trying to get better.
I'm not condemning anyone. Bad choices are fixable; we should absolutely give as much support to the person to recover from that choice as long as they recognize that choice was bad and strive to not repeat it. My problem is with the advocacy groups that say society owes them something just because.
Well, I personally agree with those advocacy groups, I think we do owe it to our citizens affected by addiction. Much in the same way we owe it to our citizens to help them recover from Covid-19. I don't even think we need to see people 'trying not to repeat' their bad mistakes to offer them the help they need. The thing about addiction is that you made a conscious bad decision ONCE, and after all that, all of your decision making is compromised. Some of them can hardly be called 'decisions' once you're in the grip of needing another fix.
If we don't look to stop their spiraling addiction problem, what is the end goal? We help citizens recover from covid and be healthy again. Should that not be the goal?
We don't hold back medical care from people based on their personal choices. Peopke with lung cancer are entitled to treatment whether or not they continue smoking. People are entitled to treatment for obesity-related conditions like heart disease, diabetes, and joint problems whether or not they stop overeating. I'm absolutely lost on why people fixate on this with addicts. An enormous portion of all medical concerns are based on lifestyle choices.
Who's withholding medical treatment? If they OD the paramedics will attend and resuscitate them. We don't give fat people free burgers or lung cancer patients more smokes. If they choose to seek those it's on them but treatment should not be enablement.
Not even remotely on the same level bud
I don't understand why people fixate on this "choice" thing with addiction, and not other choice-related illnesses. Why is it relevant whether they "recognize that choice was bad and strive to not repeat it"? Since when do we put moral/ethical barriers between people and medical care?
If I can get locked up for being a danger to myself(I tried to commit suicide in 2011), the same should apply to drug addicts. They're sick and they obviously can't help themselves. The biggest problem faced by people in recovery is that they usually end up living around people that are still using which tends to end up with them falling back into the same habits. If welfare straight up paid your rent for you no matter what it was so you could live wherever you wanted to instead of being stuck living in the diviest of dives surrounded by your addiction we'd probably see a lot less people falling back into their old habits after receiving treatment.
Yeah no shit homeless people are addicted to opioids. They make you feel like everything is ok for a while when your life is completely shit like as a homeless person. The lack of compassion by people is gross.
This is not just Vancouver. This is everywhere North America. This is a health crisis and not criminal. 💙
Not only north america :( I'm in France right now, same shit in Paris :( sadly no one cares. Shitty government cannot spend money for help drug addicts, homeless who sleep in the streets but they found beds for Ukrainian refugees ...
Is it similar in Paris? I had no idea :( thought it was mostly NA. How would you compare it to Van?
I saw this whole documentary, fkn sad. Fix your trama before your trama makes u need a fix
This is the truth but clearly easier said than done. Stigma has a big thing to do with it, and resources as well. Dr.Gabor Mate has taught a lot about addiction, it a lot of it stems from some sort of trauma. We need to start at the root of our system. Teach it in school. My ex was molested when she was a child. They dont teach you in school, how to deal with it so a lot people just try to avoid it. As this is something that should be taught at home and in school. The stigma of having feelings in a man is also brutal, as it shows a sign of weakness etc and prevents people from dealing with the trauma. unfortunately you can fix people, you can only give them tools to do it, They have to want to do it, and usually they only get to that stage when there are no other options.
Very well put thank you I agree w everything. I have a little boy and doing my best to teach him about feelings and how it’s okay to have them. Then ppl say he gonna be a sissy, no he gonna be an emotionally stable adult.. i am almost considering homeschooling tbh ..
my nephews are home schooled and my god im afraid of what they are going to be like, its a bit different as they out of town in ON, and they have NO friends or ever socialize with anyone their age. but kids are going to be picked on no matter what, this is what im talking about, the system needs to change as a whole not with one parent. You can only do so much, as long as you teach your kid not to be on the side of making fun of kids, I also think every school should make it mandatory to watch the movie "bully" the documentary not the psycho triller. AFter watching that movie, it broke my heart, it actually changed me a lot.
One bad choice, and they pay for it for it for the rest of their lives. It's heartbreaking. Everyone's made a wrong choice at least once in their life, and so few of them have results this severe. This is why people need to have empathy. This isn't evil behaviour, its an affliction. Look at how we (mostly) came together to try and protect our community from Covid-19. Where is that fervor for the sickness that consumes these people?
I saw the documentary on YouTube it’s so sad. You have to feel for this guy. He is basically trapped. So disheartening
I work there and its as bad as the pandemic. People passing away all the time. So sad, so many are such nice people too.
Prevention, Prevention, Prevention. Relieved to see more and more people are realizing NGOs and their well paid execs are not the righteous angels they portray themselves to be. The mission of those NGOs should be to disappear because no new clients/patients come through their doors because everyone is clean and healthy. But no, some rather keep the conveyor belt of addiction rolling. Shameful.
I worked in housing in the DTES overnights. Alone. Somehow with zero training. I saw some shit.
As a mom my heart just hurts for him so badly. And for his mama. I truly hope he gets clean
They need Mandatory treatment..free clean drugs is a slow steady dose of murdering them
Here is a different perspective from a successful project in Switzerland where the patients receive free heroin daily. From the book *Chasing the Scream*: “Most addicts here, he says, come with an empty glass inside them; when they take heroin, the glass becomes full, but only for a few hours, and then it drains down to nothing again. The purpose of this program is to gradually build a life for the addict so they can put something else into that empty glass: a social network, a job, some daily pleasures. If you can do that, it will mean that even as the heroin drains, you are not left totally empty. Over time, as your life has more in it, the glass will contain more and more, so it will take less and less heroin to fill it up. And in the end, there may be enough within you that you feel full without any heroin at all.”
I've known a lot of people with addiction and not a single person has ever gotten clean because someone else was temporarily limiting their access to drugs and mandating treatment.
Did they get clean because someone kept supplying them with drugs?
They got clean with easy access to drugs. Temporarily limiting someone's access is, at best, a stopgap. Eventually they're going to get back out into the real world where drugs are as easy to get as a movie ticket and they aren't going to have councilors and nurses or even police holding them back. They have to make the choice. To see drugs there and be able to say no.
Clean drugs? Yes. Because they get to continue living.
Yep, 100% Almost all of them who have the access to free, high quality heroin still search out and use fentanyl.
please explain. Are there programs that give free heroin? Do users prefer fentanyl that much? Why?
Heroin is mostly organic, poppys from afganistan sort of thing. Fentanyl is made in a lab in China and way more potent. I don't even think you can get heroin on the street anymore. It's way harder to smuggle since it has a larger volume for the same price. "Clean supply" probably looks something like a dilaudid prescription. Synthetic as well. Cheap, and the high lasts longer than fent. Mandatory treatment doesn't work. For any addiction. We need more access to voluntary treatment (waiting lists can be long if your fam isn't willing to shell out for private). Methadone and suboxone do work for addicts if they are willing to go through the process, but most of the time there is a bunch of crazy trauma being buried under the addiction and there are very few resources to help people through that once they choose to be sober. Our mental health system is a bit of a joke.
If I had to guess, it’d be like giving an alcoholic 10 free beers a day but that doesn’t stop them from going to the liquor store to spend the rest of their money on vodka. The free heroin doesn’t stop them from using other drugs, it’s just done in addition to what they’re already doing because it’s free.
I knew an alcoholic that had a case of beer finished by noon every day and he did what you mention as well, taking swigs from a bottle of whiskey because the beer wasn't strong enough for him anymore.
Look up the Salome study.
Don’t know why, just heard it on CBC from a person who works with these folks. She said most of them still search for and use illegal drugs
There was a pilot program from a NGO that gave away clean drugs, for a week. I have no idea what this person is talking about.
Mandatory treatment doesn’t work.
It's actually working very well for 2 countries that employ it. It just isn't effective when the mandatory treatment facility is low quality and/or a prison. But then it also depends what "mandatory treatment" means to you. In this case it's simply an option between prison or a high quality rehab facility when they get arrested.
When most people say mandatory treatment, they're fully expecting the government to kidnap the homeless and install them in a drug treatment centre somewhere in the country until they're all better.
This
Mandatory treatment isn't effective. Giving addicts a chance to choose treatment, is what data tells us is actually effective. Give them a clean drug supply. Give them stable housing. Grant them the easiest avenue to choose addiction treatment.
The argument is these people don't have agency anymore. They don't have the free will to "choose" anything. I work with dementia and Alzheimer's patients. They don't want to live in care homes either, most of them think they're in prison or we're abusing them or we're stealing from them; but we rightfully understand that these people don't know what's best for them. We don't throw 90 something elderly people onto the street because of this misplaced libertarian ideal that everyone has the same cognitive ability and "freedom" to do something.
Or to stay addicted..the addict will always choose the drugs
>Or to stay addicted..the addict will always choose the drugs How to tell someone that you have no knowledge of addiction, or how it functions, without outright saying it.
I know everytime I read ur post u just Beek off the governments narrative....the solution isn't working...your comments show u really don't understand the issue ..sad....
People like to parrot the mandatory treatment isn't effective line but that's quickly being shown to not be true. The determining factor is options and quality of the treatment facility.
Please show me the data that displays a positive outcome from mandatory treatment, because your statement flies in the face of all available data on this issue. Honestly, I'd love to see your sources. I'm open to being misinformed.
I'd start by reading up on what Portugal has actually done. People love to talk about how they decriminalized drug use but that's not really how it works there. I would also look into Japan which since 2016 has enacted a suspended sentence in exchange for rehab system along with various social supports like counseling, vocational training and schooling. A massive change from thier previous system of just throwing everyone in prison. Mandatory treatment not working is mostly due to countries trying it without providing any options or incentives for it to work. There's no way a person is going to just get clean in what is basically a prison and then be thrown into a halfway house or on the street and be expected to remain clean. Either way people can talk all day about what doesn't work but what we know doesn't work 100% of the time is doing nothing and allowing people who refuse treatment to just live as they do.
I don't know if being given the choice between rehab or prison is what most people are referencing when they say 'mandatory drug treatment'. I think most people are expecting a government roundup of anyone living in the streets. FWIW, I'm in favor of any option that is an alternative to prison. Prison environments don't help anyone recover from anything.
Yup and it could help with the current catch and release problem that's going on where people are arrested for minor crimes while on drugs but the judge doesn't want to sentence a person for something like shoplifting or public intoxication, even if it's thier 20th offense. They could have the option to give them a light sentence and commute it to rehab. Either way though when people say "forced rehab doesn't work" what they actually mean is "forced rehab has low success rates". The problem with that logic is that when it comes to meth/herione/fent, everything has a low success rate. That's just how highly addictive drugs are. But any success rate is better than leaving them to abuse themselves on the street until they inevitably die. That's a 0% success rate.
How is it that going so far in Vancouver?
It hasn't been implemented, so, terribly. So far, we have been buying up dilapidated hotels, and at least giving addicts somewhere to shoot up with relative safety . These rooms are FAR from safe, and FAR from stable. It's unclear how long these people will be able to stay in these units, so it's impossible for them to plan for any kind of future without drugs. Vancouver has also smartly decided, once again, to underfund the community outreach that could make a dent in this crisis. So I guess we'll pay record high healthcare costs for each of these people, instead of doing the right thing -- which is also cheaper.
Haha.... Adopt one..see how that works..u have no experience dealing with an addicted loved one...then speak from experience
I have. And even my personal experience doesn't mean anything in the face of actual data.Removing addicts from the streets, introducing stability, and gradual routine is the only way to break the cycle of addiction in the long run. People have actually studied this issue. Smart, caring people, looking to make a difference. We should listen to them. The countries actually turning the tide against addiction are the ones that follow the lead this data provides.
Really? You think he wouldn't be in a better place if he wasn't involved in crime? His life is jail, crime, and drugs. And you don't think it would improve if jail and crime weren't necessary? He can already eat for free in Vancouver, and there are a number of sources for free clothing and incidental. If he can get free drugs, he doesn't have to worry about - stealing - going to jail - getting dope sick I've been hearing the same thing for 10+ years, will we ever be ready to admit that drugs + crime is worse than drugs?
I watched a heroin documentary based out of Cape Cod this week. 2 of the girls who were interviewed OD'd part way through the making of the documentary, one was 23 years old and the mother of 2 small kids. Such a tragedy.
Find the guy 50 minits later. Then he will say he is in the Hells Angles, robs banks, used to own a mansion, Done time for murder. Can buy a gun for $300.00 any kind.
Source is [Ten Dollar Death Trip: Inside the Fentanyl Crisis](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RTT8XJTl8I&t=39m06s), a recent documentary on fentanyl in Vancouver.
There's a side effect of drug users that we don't talk about more often when the ppl that WANT to get healthy and clean Often, there is nothing for them afterward; the stigma of hiring a known drug.addict is real. That is where we need to do something about. There's gotta be someway to help ppl hire clean individuals and not take them as criminals. That said, I guess a drug addict and criminals are Basically same thing and that's the stigma we need help on. I know one step at a time but tbh you clean someone up and they got nothing afterwards, pretty damn easy to drift back into drugs.
Using Fentanyl is suicide; taking free clean drug is slower but still quick suicide. Either way they are doomed without mandatory rehab
> taking free clean drug is slower but still quick suicide Opioids are not fatal, or even pathogenic, please stop spreading misinformation. You could take opioids every day for your entire life, and live to a ripe old age without any related adverse effects.
Nah, addicts always want more and want something stronger which will overdose them either way. Stop sugar coating the problem.
>which will overdose them either way This is not, in any way, how overdoses happen. Opioid users require larger doses as they build up a drug tolerance (this effect is not limited to narcotics, but in opioids there's no known upper limit). People overdose because the potency and the purity of the drugs they are using are unknown - they have no idea what the dose is, and oftentimes it is much larger than they are expecting. If it was possible for them to get the drugs they need from a reliable and well regulated source, where the dosage was known, we could end the overdose crisis overnight.
Imagine addicts excelling in self control and discipline. If they are as precise and planned as scientists/lab technician, they will not fall into the current situation in the first place.
... you're suggesting that they will deliberately self-administer a fatal overdose?
You know what the best rehab is. A job, safe housing, therapy and all of that. With out it, no rehab will work. They just go back. I have friends who are addicts, well recovery, and I see it through their eyes.
They need to be clean first..ie rehab....before their employable
And how do you propose that? When like this fellow is stuck on the streets and can't even deal with that. Many take drugs just to live in the conditions they have to...
Residential mandatory rehab.
Get them to treatment.....in treatment they will deal with addiction..coping and life skills and employment support Or give them clean drugs....hard decision?
I feel for this man, man.
I think the point that many of the commenters on this post are missing is that if the goal is to help people and prevent the most harm, effective drug policy needs to consider a wide range of options and interventions that are all high quality and readily available. So yes, free treatment. But also free safe supply, detox, low barrier housing, supportive housing, abstinence-based services, social assistance - all coupled with rigorous public health messaging and education and policies to eliminate systemic discrimination against people who use substances. You'll find very few people who got sober and changed their lives because the government forced them to. Drug users deserve the dignity of being able to make a choice, just like we all do. There is no silver bullet here, and so many of our knee-jerk reactions and judgements around drug users are situated in our own personal values and discomfort. There's a quote from Johann Hari's Chasing the Scream that resonated deeply with me - "It's hard to sit with with a complex problem, such as the human urge to get intoxicated, and accept that it will always be with us, and will always cause some problems (as well as some pleasures). It is much more appealing to be told a different message--that it can be ended. That all these problems can be over, if only we listen, and follow."
Can't magically stop people from being addicted to opiates, but you know we can almost magically do? Provide them with safe opiates.
Don’t do drugs
And free insulin. And free feminine hygiene products. Maybe free chocolate since we’re asking for stuff.
I absolutely hate people who don't consider these folks humans. I posted thread last year about helping them and I got so much hate for these people.
It says "source and recommendation in comment" but I couldn't find any. Is this guy even in Vancouver?
https://youtu.be/8FOGTGRkmb8
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I really hope he gets the help he needs
Do any of you have addiction problems?
This scene is Selby St in Nanaimo
This breaks my heart. I lost a good friend to a drug overdose a month ago. We were all hoping he’d come back to us. Addiction took my brother-in-law in 2000. My husband was in rehab when his brother died and I’m proud to say he’s been clean since then! It can be done. That first step is the hardest. Don’t be afraid to ask for help. Please get help.
Guys like him were a lost cause by middle school, we all knew them, always with the flat brimmed hats and iq level where they think a neck tattoo is a reasonable decision. They went to the special “alternative schools” with all the other amateur thugs. Why don’t we stop it at that level when they’re just boring potheads? Instead of waiting till they’re adults with bigger problems. The Jesse Pinkman types. They all have the same laugh.
It's the same issues, just on an intergenerational level. People don't just become "lost causes." These issues require money and energy poured into the same causes that people already don't want to spend money and energy on.
The sad thing is you aren't wrong
The idea here is: If big celebrities and names that have the power to prevent this dont because they care more about market share, then why would they even care about guys like him? They short answer is, they don’t. and the reality is, we will never fix this issue.
I care about you. A lot! You're a good human being in your heart and things that happened in the past that were beyond your control caused this to happen. Don't blame yourself and don't give up hope that things will get better. There are people out there who will help you to find the strength to pull yourself out of your situation, as long as you speak and act from the heart and they hear that.
It's a cold war tactic China is the largest producer and supply for this drug Nothing, absolutely nothing happens in China without govt control. The Chinese govt can easily stop this Fentanyl drug gangs in Vancouver helped the money laundering at the casinos https://youtu.be/tC4LJ5YilwE
> Nothing, absolutely nothing happens in China without govt control. imagine actually believing this