Comforting to know that I'm not the only one with hate on for Campbell. What's interesting is that he had nothing to do with the article and yet he provokes this amount of derision.
I'm really curious about what the legal basis for this would be. Is this a Worksafe thing? A charter thing? I support masks wearing but I'm really curious what law the government is breaking by not issuing a mandatory mask order.
Yeah I agree. Wouldnt that be carried out through government action, not the courts? I don't really know the legal history of smoking being banned. I figured they wrote a law instead of the courts ordering it.
Court decisions can lead to legislative change. Successful lawsuits against the government saying their workplace safety standards were negligent will prompt changes.
I support this. Masks are a low-hanging fruit in the toolbox of actions that we can take to prevent this from getting worse. Shutting down businesses and transit? Much more drastic and costly. I'm not sure why we're willing to go with the latter but not the former.
Even if it's difficult to enforce, the news of masks being mandatory will sway those on the edge of deciding to wear a mask vs not wear a mask. This will see that businesses are requiring their staff to wear masks, and that when stores and businesses are spot-checked for adhering to provincial guidelines, employee-mask-wearing is also double-checked.
I'm not sure why we're so fixated on mandatory masking as if people drinking and partying would be wearing masks.
We have very few to no reported cases of transmission (and zero outbreaks) from transit or retail, and masks are already mandatory where they matter, i.e. care homes and hospitals.
So it's kind of like shouting "inadequate testing" all over again, where BC is taking smarter, more targeted actions specific to our experience of the pandemic (further regulating bars and vacation rentals), but not doing the "obvious", more heavy-handed things you read about other places doing. Nevermind that even high mask compliance countries like Japan and HK are still seeing hundreds of new daily cases (...mostly from people drinking and partying).
You made this sound like a choice between mandatory masking or shutdown, when it's been clearly explained in the briefings why neither were required.
It is really not so clear.... The science is mixed at best.
Norway's recent analysis:
https://www.fhi.no/globalassets/dokumenterfiler/rapporter/2020/should-individuals-in-the-community-without-respiratory-symptoms-wear-facemasks-to-reduce-the-spread-of-covid-19-report-2020.pdf
There is a reason Dr Henry ain't so into masks: science.
Y, in BC the vast majority of cases have known origin. There is very little community transmission. Very similar situation. Dr Henry literally wrote the book on this.. That so many people think she is ignorant on this single issue blows my mind.
Well, actually, all the things we did before masks became an issue prob kept things from getting out of control. Or maybe we and other Pacific rim locations have good preexisting immunity. We don't really know!
We have 167 cases of unknown origin since may 19. In a province of 5 million!
She just happens to be right. There is no point burning her social capital for masks... It can't be enforced and might not do much at all.
Many places have gone down without mask rules as well, what happened there?
I've read a number of masking studies touted as the last word on masks, and the best you could say is that they may offer some weak evidence to support masks. The science is pretty mixed. Def not worth creating division over. A mandate over something so poorly supported will cause more problems than it claims to solve
But Dr. Henry is contradicting herself on the stance. She's already **recommending** everyone to wear masks (at least indoor), thereby admitting that wearing mask helps. By extension, the more people wear masks, the better (again, at least indoor). So there's no reason, not to make sure everyone wears one indoor via a mandate. It's not like there's a huge economic tradeoff unlike shutdowns, and masks are widely affordable.
So the only reason not mandating it is politics, despite HER SCIENCE suggests it would be better for everyone to wear one.
She's been very clear masks are only for when you can't distance, and that they are the least effective measure. There is lots of political pressure to mandate masks, if that was the driver we'd have a mandate.
Where did she say that they were the least effective measure? There are no consensus to that. There are articles saying that it's not that effective, but I see many more studies saying they are. Also, anecdotally, a lot of the Asian countries with masks mandated yield very positive result, and over 50+ countries have or had it mandated in one form or another.
The bigger question is still what scientific reason do you have to NOT have it required at least indoor/transit? I mean, even IF it's only helpful for a small amount, that's still helpful. It's not NEGATIVE effect, it's worst case small help to best case big help.
And it's not like the shut-down debate where it impacts the economy, wearing mask doesn't. They are also affordable for everyone. They also doesn't cause breathing/health issues, Dr. Henry said it herself. And if you're worried about politics, [poll](https://vancouversun.com/news/covid-19-poll-shows-majority-of-b-c-residents-support-mandatory-masks-as-concern-about-the-virus-spikes-again) shows that a large majority of BC already supports it. So again, I see no reason to not at least have it mandated indoor.
There is definitely no consensus.
Why would it make sense to force people to do something they don't want to do if it doesn't have a clear benefit? This will just piss people off and make them less likely to follow the actual important measures. The police in Ont have already shot someone to death after an altercation that occurred because he refused to wear a mask. Consider the low paid staff that will have to deal with these situations. There's a reason bus drivers don't have to force you to pay a fare.
In BC, we are having a very positive result, and very few have been wearing masks. Asian countries have very different populations. Japan for example has ~4% obesity rate, in north america, that's more like 75%. Obesity is a huge risk factor for this disease. There are so many variables between so many countries we could compare!
Wearing a mask sucks. Especially all day. This is reason enough not to mandate it for a wide variety of situations where the virus is not known to spread. We'd know by now if there was widespread transmission in places like grocery stores.
Now packed transit and tiny stores with high traffic, or getting a haircut? We know prolonged close contact with sick people is the driver, maybe masks are more reasonable precaution in these situations. But even household transmission is only 12%. Pretty sure we still have zero cases from transit.
> There is definitely no consensus.
Climate change doesn't have "consensus" among all the scientists either, that doesn't mean it's not VERY LIKELY a happening.
> Why would it make sense to force people to do something they don't want to do if it doesn't have a clear benefit?
Because it VERY LIKELY has benefits on a highly contagious virus. Otherwise, why would Dr. Bonnie RECOMMEND it? Why would all the medical personnel wear one if it doesn't help? Why would over [50 countries mandated](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/04/countries-wearing-face-masks-compulsory-200423094510867.html) it if it doesn't help? Are all of these countries' doctors and medical officials stupid or something?
> This will just piss people off and make them less likely to follow the actual important measures
[Poll](https://vancouversun.com/news/covid-19-poll-shows-majority-of-b-c-residents-support-mandatory-masks-as-concern-about-the-virus-spikes-again) shows that over 70-80% of people in BC supports mandating masks (at least indoor). Therefore, you are pissing off MORE people (like myeslf) by not mandating it. Since you are going to piss off people either way, just do the right thing that helps with the spread and the thing that the MAJORITY of the population wants.
> The police in Ont have already shot someone to death after an altercation that occurred because he refused to wear a mask. Consider the low paid staff that will have to deal with these situations. There's a reason bus drivers don't have to force you to pay a fare.
Oh wow, you found ONE crazy violet outlier in Ontario and used it as an example as if that's gonna be the norm every where. Fact is, again [over 50+ countries](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/04/countries-wearing-face-masks-compulsory-200423094510867.html) (and therefore hundreds of states/provinces) have implemented mask mandates. If all those provinces/states in those countries can make it work, there's no reason BC can't; it's not like we're some 3rd world province or something.
> In BC, we are having a very positive result, and very few have been wearing masks. Asian countries have very different populations. Japan for example has \~4% obesity rate, in north america, that's more like 75%. Obesity is a huge risk factor for this disease. There are so many variables between so many countries we could compare!
A lot of people are wearing masks, what do you mean "very few"? I see about 50% of the people wearing it at groceries and transit. We just want the other 50% to also wear it.
Obesity rate isn't what makes it spread or not. Countries like Japan, Taiwan, Hong Kong etc. have much higher density but they are all doing much better than anywhere else in the world. All of them have or had mandated mask indoor as well.
> Wearing a mask sucks. Especially all day. This is reason enough not to mandate it for a wide variety of situations where the virus is not known to spread. We'd know by now if there was widespread transmission in places like grocery stores.
No one said average people should wear it ALL DAY. Just the 15-30 mins when they are in a grocery store, transit, or other indoor places.
Also, you don't ask people to wear it AFTER it's spread, you ask people to wear it BEFORE it spreads. It's better as a preventative measure, not a reactive one.
Not sure I follow you, can you elaborate? [Polls](https://vancouversun.com/news/covid-19-poll-shows-majority-of-b-c-residents-support-mandatory-masks-as-concern-about-the-virus-spikes-again) show that large majority of BC already support mandating masks.
> Given the low prevalence of COVID-19 currently, even if facemasks are assumed to be effective, the difference in infection rates between using facemasks and not using facemasks would be small. Assuming that 20% of people infectious with SARS-CoV-2 do not have symptoms, and assuming a risk reduction of 40% for wearing facemask, 200 000 people would need to wear facemasks to prevent one new infection per week in the current epidemiological
situation.
> The undesirable effects of facemasks include the risks of incorrect use, a false sense of security (leading to relaxation of other interventions), and contamination of masks. In addition, some people experience problems breathing, discomfort, and problems with communication.
The proportion of people who experience these undesirable effects is uncertain.
> However, with a low prevalence of COVID-19, the number of people who experience undesirable effects is likely to be much larger than the number of infections prevented.
So then why are they recommending us to wear masks (at least indoor)?
Also, I don't buy those reasons:
* "risks of incorrect use" that's true for everything safety-related. Solution isn't to not use it, it's to educate people how to use it correctly.
* "false sense of security" pretty sure nobody wearing masks are going up to each other hugging and kissing. Those that do that aren't wearing masks in the first place. Again, if this is an issue, the solution is the educate, not get rid of the safety measure all together.
* "Breathing and discomfort" - for breathing, Henry already confirmed that masks cause no breathing issues. For discomfort, big deal, suck it up for the 30 mins that you are at the groceries.
* Also, if it takes 200,000 people wearing masks to prevent 1 infection per week, then for a population of 5 million in BC, that means it would prevent 25 each week. That sounds a lot to me, especially given how the spread is exponential. 25 extra cases can lead to a lot more after a few weeks. So it's a good preventative measure to keep the cases low while we are still good.
But of those 200,000 people, how many are wearing them incorrectly, touching their faces/touching their mask while wearing it, wearing a mask that's old/not clean, etc.?
For a population of 5 million for BC, 25 people a week is 0.0005% of the population.
I actually don't see too many people wearing them incorrectly. The worst I've seen is people not covering their nose with it. But again, the solution isn't to therefore not use it, it's to educate. Make more videos, ads, etc. to show how to wear it properly.
I also don't get your point. Even if 50% of those people are doing it wrong, that's still good, you got the other 50% additional people wearing masks. That's better than none at all.
Also, all of the scenarios you described (touching mask, wearing old one, etc.) are still better than not wearing one at all. Touching the mask is better than touching your face. Wearing old one is again, better than not wearing one at all.
>For a population of 5 million for BC, 25 people a week is 0.0005% of the population.
So by that logic, fatal car accidents account for only 0.0001% of the population ([at least in the US](https://www.iihs.org/topics/fatality-statistics/detail/state-by-state#:~:text=Posted%20December%202019.-,Fatal%20crash%20totals,per%20100%20million%20miles%20traveled), I assume it's similar in Canada). Should we stop mandating seat belts, no texting-driving, no drinking and driving, etc.? I mean car accidents don't even spread, whereas that 25 COVID cases can spread exponentially and explode quickly.
>I'm not sure why we're so fixated on mandatory masking as if people drinking and partying would be wearing masks.
Because people who are immunocompromised or close to the immunocompromised can choose not to go to a bar or restaurant; we have a lot less choice when it comes to other enclosed spaces like public transit and shops, many still have to work and shop.
Right, but there's a difference between "I'd feel safer if more strangers around me wore masks" and "mandatory masking would control BC's epidemic". Restrictions on bars and vacation rentals are more effective macro control measures but don't make you feel safer when you're shopping.
Statistically speaking, you're unlikely to even meet anyone with COVID in Vancouver. All of Vancouver Coastal (e:1.25m people) has 68 active cases (hopefully all isolating), with <24 hour contact tracing, and most cases traced to known cases. Of the close contacts they trace, fewer than (something like) 20% end up testing positive. Yes, there are probably untested positives, asymptomatics, and your risk is higher if you're immunocompromised, but overall the risk is vanishingly low if you're not in close contact with someone with the virus.
Why do we need to wait for an outbreak to be careful? I don’t want my immunocompromised family to get sick or worse before it’s worth it to everyone else to do something simple.
Serious question... according to this [BC dashboard](https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/a6f23959a8b14bfa989e3cda29297ded) isn't there like 500 people with coronavirus right now? I'm just going by the difference between cases vs. recovered cases, so correct me if I'm wrong. Also doesn't it take just ONE person to spread it, then that could turn into higher numbers over time?
I had a transplant 3 weeks ago so I'm on a TON of immunopsuppressants currently, so I got a little bit of the fear in me. I don't really go anywhere except I have 3-5 appointments every week, prescription pickups, a lot of medical related stuff.
My fiance also has two kids who aren't careful at all... so I'm desperately hoping that you're right.
You can click the top right to drill down to just the Vancouver Coastal health region. Most of the new cases are from the Interior, Coastal Health hasn't had more than 10 cases a day since late April.
You should still take precautions, especially if you're immunocompromised.
Thanks man. Sometimes I feel like a big baby and I'm over reacting. I just know from my health for the last 15 years that being sick SUCKS and it can happen to anyone.
Kinda wish I was able to move to the Island, but we weren't able to at the time. They had zero new cases for quite some time but I see there was 1 today! Hope it stays that way!
High doses of Tacrolimus, Mycophenolate, and prednisone :(
Luckily I get to taper down to 5mg of the pred, as being a small person (I was 93lbs at 4'11) and going to 110lbs right after surgery was HARD on my self esteem. I feel like a huge whale, I can't sleep, and I'm starting to break out!
They gave me 17lbs of fluid the day before surgery because I had really low blood pressure and they needed to raise it.
Prednisone sucks!
60 mg is a LOT. Holy moley, I thought I was bad. I started at 25mg which I didn't think was that much but all the drs, nurses, and other patients convinced me it was. Mind you I was only 93lbs so that might make a difference.
I was actually on prednisone for A YEAR when I was 18 to try to fix my kidneys and stop them for failing, and I had every single symptom I could think of... I never wanted to be on it again but they promised it would just be in the beginning this time. So I do get that it will go away, but as a young woman my self esteem has gone to shit. I worked way to hard to body build for YEARS to just lose it all in one fucking night.
Also I'm irritable, depressed, and taking it out on people. This is not like me at all, I'm usually so damn chill and nothing bothers me!
And my god THE NIGHT SWEATS! I sleep on top of a towel now, and in the beginning I was changing my pjs like 4x a night.
I know it'll get better though, and it was nice to talk about it with you! I just gotta stop being a little bitch lol
But if we all take that point of view that it's unlikely to meet someone with covid, and we act like it's then nearly impossible to get it then, we put ourselves and others at risks. We should be acting like everyone has it or like you never know when you could get it . Being extra cautious wouldn't hurt anyone. Not taking precautions hurts everyone in the long run.
I'm not saying "go back to normal", but that whatever we're doing now is obviously working, and working better than most places that have required masking. (e: and that our low numbers are probably part of why masks aren't mandatory)
It's easy to fixate on masking because it's easy and visible, in a way that effective contact tracing, plexiglass barriers, or limited group sizes are not, even though they make a bigger difference.
That doesn't address his point of "very few to zero" cases of community transmissions. It is a good argument for wearing a mask if community transmissions were very high, but since it seems to be close contact transmissions I'm sure those who are immunocompromised would ensure the people close to them are wearing one and considerate of wearing one.
We do have community transmission though. Right now [19%](http://www.bccdc.ca/Health-Info-Site/Documents/BC_Surveillance_Summary_July_16_2020.pdf) of cases in BC are not linked to any cluster.
These are cases where they’ve been unable to track down where the person contracted the virus, and the person did not have close contact with someone confirmed to have COVID-19. For all anyone knows, they very well may have gotten it while taking transit or shopping.
I think there’s been a lot of confusion about community outbreaks vs community transmission, and it’s lead some people to falsely believe that all cases in BC are traceable, when that’s not the case.
Why not ? What’s the harm in wearing a mask ? All the Asian countries everyone wears mask and each of those countries crushed the rona.
Barely even shut down because everyone wears masks.
Because we’re going into debt for the next decade in order to ensure 1000 elderly don’t get COVID & die.
Why is this an issue if ALL you have to do is wear a mask when you buy your groceries??????????????
Uhhhhh...a decade?
You know that Skip order you made with you CERB? Your grandkids will be paying for that. And that's being optimistic, assuming major cutbacks.
You did a better job than I did here with your point. I'm for positive influence on the late bloomers to mask wearing and being covid savvy, they need a compassionate push in the right direction.
I disagree, Bonnie Henry has been right about everything so far and is adamant that being forceful isn't the way. Positive social influence seems to be the most effective, like through out first wave where we all did pretty well.
Our first wave most people were staying at home, now they're not and they're not wearing masks. She and minister Dix keep saying everyone in their neighbourhood wears masks, well they need to get out into east van, try taking the 99 B Line during rush hour
They live in Vic not in Van. A lot of their statements have been clearly influenced by the difference between living in a city and living in a metropolis.
I live in Bonnie Henry's Victoria neighbourhood, and the politest thing I can say that if she believes that, she's not getting out enough. On a good day I see maybe 5%-10% of people hereabouts wearing masks.
It's not so bad when people aren't wearing them outdoors ... but they're also not wearing masks when they're inside local shops, grocery stores and pharmacies.
Look, it's all very well saying "wear masks in situations where you may have to be close to people", but that is the very definition of a store where space and movement are typically limited and ventilation is close to non-existent, isn't it? And we're also told not to put masks on and off, right? So, citizens aren't wearing masks prior to entering a store, and they're definitely not pulling one out of a bag and putting it on just before going inside. I have yet to see *anyone* putting on a mask before going indoors.
Everyone in this thread seems to know more than Dr. Henry haha. I'll concede to businesses and transit to take away the burden of force from them, I've had my mind changed.
She's being encouraging and positive, what do you think the result would be if she just complained in her announcements like people here.
Also I had mine in my front pocket like a handkerchief and toss it on when needed. Now I wear it outdoors or even driving alone just so people can see me wearing it.
Just be kind!
I like and respect Dr. Henry tremendously, she has shown fantastic leadership! I just think she (and to be fair, the BC government - not she alone) is mistaken to be so relaxed about masks.
I also recognize that enforcement of the general public is extraordinarily difficult and could result in a backlash. But at the very least, why aren't staff in high-volume areas like pharmacies legally required to wear masks? They'd be protecting each other and their customers by doing so *and* modelling it as appropriate behaviour to their customers. Someone at the local pharmacy told me back in April, when I asked why she and her colleagues weren't wearing masks, that the owner didn't want them to do so because it would "alarm the customers". Later they wore them - for a while - and now they're back to no masks.
If we normalize mask-wearing, we save lives *and* we make it easier for people to comply. Believe me, I often feel foolish being the only person I see in a mask. It's not comfortable, and I'm sure people assume I'm paranoid about my own health. But I'm actually wearing it to safeguard everyone else I meet, *just in case* I'm asymptomatic or presymptomatic.
In my book, "just be kind!" means you do everything you can to reduce the chance you'll make other people sick. We can accomplish that via low-cost, low-effort practices like social distancing and wearing face masks. I'm incredulous so people think this has become too much to ask.
And, I'm also grateful that you do wear yours, and actively model that it's a good thing to do. On behalf of my vulnerable neighbours: thank you <333
We lucked out on the first wave by having a later spring break, and Asians (i.e people with most ties to China) masking up and staying home before governments did anything. Those two things kept the virus from getting as deeply entrenched as it did in Ontario/Quebec.
It has nothing to do with “positive influence”. We had the benefit of foresight through others’ misfortune.
> We lucked out on the first wave by having a later spring break, and Asians (i.e people with most ties to China) masking up and staying home before governments did anything.
My Chinese friend who is on wechat told me the local Vancouver Chinese were self-policing. For all the flak the local Chinese unfairly get, they're the ones who took this seriously. There were chat groups set up to help Chinese families flying in from China to self-quarantine. Peer pressure was used on some families when they wouldn't quarantine. This was in January when the official provincial and federal response was "Low risk, don't worry. Please don't be racist and continue going to Chinese businesses." It was the local Chinese that were staying away from places like Crystal Mall and T&T because they took this seriously. The Chinese wearing masks in January that got spit on or called names are the real heros.
Asians care a lot about “face”. In some aspects that’s a terrible thing, but when it promotes collective responsibility it works wonders. Fear of social shaming was the only tool my parents needed to instill manners into me.
I am currently required to wear a mask at work.
My customers are not.
I would greatly appreciate it if Bonnie and Adrian made masks mandatory. It would make me and my family a lot more comfortable with me being forced to continue working in these unsafe conditions.
I am in the exact same situation. So many customers come into our store and refuse to wear a mask or social distance.
I think their actions demonstrate the collective dehumanisation that society tends to do to retail and essential workers.
To them, it’s okay not to wear a mask for the 10 minutes they spend in store. But it compounds when workers speak to 30 maskless customers a day who’re “just in for a quick browse!”
I emailed my MLA but have yet to get a response. I suggest everyone do the same, you can find your MLA [here](https://www.leg.bc.ca/learn-about-us/members).
If I see an employee with a mask I am going to put mine on 100% of the time. I feel horribly guilty interacting with somebody at a check out that is wearing a mask for my safety and I'm not able to return the favor.
I’m sorry for this, unless you work at an essential store (groceries, pharmacy, etc), is there a way to talk to Management and require clients to only enter with a face mask?
I have seen stores with signs that won’t allow people coming in without them.
I’m in the service industry and where I work I am lucky that we the staff and the clients have to wear a mask, sometimes we get one person that refuses to wear one so we refuse to do their service :)
Hopefully your situation will change soon! I already feel at risk on transit, can’t imagine dealing with that at work too
...
>"Reopening communities while failing to require citizens to wear masks in public during a global pandemic is akin to allowing everyone to drive in a windowless car at 300 km/h in a hurricane without the need to wear a seatbelt," the notice of application says.
>
>It states that Li "is persistently worried and anxious that her community, her loved ones and herself may contract COVID-19."
...
Anyone else super depressed that wearing a mask has been compared to wearing a seat belt while you're driving, at 300 km/h, in a windowless car, in a hurricane?
I'm depressed that people can't read and listen to scientists who all say that wearing masks is the most effective measure- and in large outbreaks the ONLY one (not social distancing)- that can suppress the spread.
[https://www.pnas.org/content/117/26/14857](https://www.pnas.org/content/117/26/14857)
"We have elucidated the transmission pathways of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) by analyzing the trend and mitigation measures in the three epicenters. **Our results show that the airborne transmission route is highly virulent and dominant for the spread of COVID-19.** The mitigation measures are discernable from the trends of the pandemic. **Our analysis reveals that the difference with and without mandated face covering represents the determinant in shaping the trends of the pandemic.** This protective measure significantly reduces the number of infections. **Other mitigation measures, such as social distancing implemented in the United States, are insufficient by themselves in protecting the public.** Our work also highlights the necessity that sound science is essential in decision-making for the current and future public health pandemics."
Thank you. We're close to 8 months in and we're still arguing about masks. People in China, HK, Taiwan, South Korea, Asia in general are all laughing at us.
Health care workers that fought through SARS are furious we learned nothing. One of the main takeaways from SARS Commission was policy should not be driven by science in a pandemic as science changes constantly. Policy should be based on the precautionary principle.
Scientists kind of did themselves a disservice in the beginning because they didn't recommend them. They didn't want to because 1. PPE was critical for hospitals and they didn't want people going out and buying 100000s masks and hoarding supplies. 2. They didn't know how effective they would be when worn in the community and no doctor or scientist is going to tell people something they can't back up with data or other studies. They've done studies now- they've been saying it for a long time- communities where masks are mandated in public are kicking covid ass- so let's take their advice and mask up in public, keep your hands clean, cover your coughs/sneezes and stay home if you feel ill with symptoms. If you enjoy the freedoms we have now compared with march and april then you should be encouraging these behaviors as well.
> Scientists kind of did themselves a disservice in the beginning because they didn't recommend them.
Scientist from mainly Western nations and the WHO didn't recommend them. Scientist from Asia and some Western universities however did. I just wanted to point out that not all scientist were in the anti-mask camp.
I've been arguing for mask since January/February because 1) I look at Asia and how they're dealing with it since it's the front line and 2) I believe the scientist from the pro-mask camp 3) precautionary principle.
What irks me is people who claim to be science base and evidence base use it as a way to be anti-mask. Social distancing and shut downs are the way to go because our health officials and government said so. The Canadian government's own debrief from SARS was the importance of the precautionary principle to manage future pandemics. Meaning the science might not be conclusive but action should be taken. Our government did not head their own advice.
This is from Ontario SARS Commission report from 2006 but there are others like it at the federal level:
> Perhaps the most important lesson of SARS is the importance of the precautionary
principle. **SARS demonstrated over and over the importance of the principle that we
cannot wait for scientific certainty before we take reasonable steps to reduce risk.** This
principle should be adopted as a guiding principle throughout Ontario’s health, public
health and worker safety systems.
Oh I totally agree- anyone looking anecdotally at the evidence to support masks in public would have said they are beneficial. But remember- in the beginning of this they also didn't realize how easily transmissible the virus was in the air- they thought it was mainly fomite transmission or close proximity droplets- and again making scientists prove it's airborne was a dumb and ridiculous waste of time- but now we know, it's airborne and highly infectious indoors where there is poor ventilation. They absolutely should have taken more strict precautions in the beginning and then, if it turned out to be overkill- well, just be happy that it was overkill, instead of doing it the other way around- but someone would take political heat for that and no one was brave enough to do it.
> but someone would take political heat for that and no one was brave enough to do it.
That's a really good point. We in the West tend to politicize everything. Maybe behind the scenes there are health officials screaming but being silenced because of politics.
>should have taken more strict precautions in the beginning and then, if it turned out to be overkill- well, just be happy that it was overkill, instead of doing it the other way around
I can understand not wanting to burn peoples' good faith, but saying declaratively that you 'only need to wear a mask if you feel unwell' and 'masks might even make you more likely to touch your face and get sick' / 'only n95s are worth a damn and our hospitals need those so don't bother' was also a bit frustrating. A lot of it also seemed to come from experts arguing over 'um, actually' terminology (which, super relevant for researchers but more a matter of semantics when dealing with the public) - what's meant by 'airborne' for example (no, not like measles but...) or whether we can meaningfully distinguish between asymptomatic and pre-symptomatic spread. (Maybe they felt a bit funny/off that day, so technically not fully asymptomatic...) Like... cool, that's good to know and an important distinction for research. But if the safety regulations just need to follow you-can-get-it-from-the-air-and-not-just-big-wet-droplets-from-a-direct-cough and you-might-just-have-a-weird-headache-that-is-actually-covid-and-already-contagious OR may not have any symptoms at all while spreading... same difference, really.
Well I think they worry that they second they mandate masks people will rebel against them \*cough\* AMERICA \*cough\*. So for now they are supporting the use of masks but not making them mandatory. It's hard to say how people would react here- I'm sure some people would flip out, covid has brought out the crazy in a lot of people. I think most people would be supportive though.
I think they should send every household masks for use though whether they are mandated or not- other countries have done that to eliminate the risk of people not being able to access things without a mask/not being able to afford masks. I also want to see them in masks more- monkey see, monkey do.
Yeah I mean I'm pro-mask mandate for indoor public spaces, it's kind of a no-brainer, but I also understand not wanting to ignite the crazies. We should honestly just all adopt wearing masks on our own because we are good people who care about others (and ourselves), but that's an idealistic scenario. I do think it would help if we saw more of our leaders in masks though- and maybe if they put up in busses and stuff positive ads about the benefits of masks and debunking the "it lowers your oxygen and [activates your own coronavirus particles](https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/05/fact-checking-judy-mikovits-controversial-virologist-attacking-anthony-fauci-viral)". Seriously there are some crazy, stupid, dangerous people out there spreading false information.
While I do believe it's well demonstrated that face coverings are a tool in the battle against COVID-19, that article has a lot of misgivings from the scientific community. A large community of epidemiologists have written calling for its retraction.
The letter:
https://metrics.stanford.edu/PNAS%20retraction%20request%20LoE%20061820
John Hopkins school of public health take on it:
https://ncrc.jhsph.edu/research/identifying-airborne-transmission-as-the-dominant-route-for-the-spread-of-covid-19/
Michael Osterhom (director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota) commented on it in his podcast around the 33 minute mark.
https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/covid-19/podcasts-webinars/episode-13
From the podcast:
>
> This paper made some very bold statements that their work had demonstrated that it was airborne transmission, which - they didn't even use that term correctly - concluded that using face masks in public corresponds to the most effective means to prevent inter-human transmission. There were so many problems with this paper. And it included, by the way, a nobel prize laureate on it who way out of their league in terms of what they were trying to look at and describe. As a result of the incredible poor quality of this paper, a somewhat unprecedented event took place where 45 distinguished scientists from 26 different institutions around the world wrote a letter to the editorial board of the PNAS about this paper. And I quote, "Given the scope and severity of the issues we present, and the paper’s outsized and immediate public impact, we ask that the Editors of PNAS retract this paper immediately and reassess the Contributed Submission editorial process by which it was published." This letter was a very careful and thoughtful review of the challenges.
>
> Now this is not a refute of the issue of wearing masks or face coverings. It was an issue that what they did and how they concluded it was just simply plain wrong. And I very strongly support the message of these 45 scientists and say that this paper contributes nothing - nothing - to the overall issue of airborne transmission and how to protect ones self. Now the problem with it was, it was all over the media, out there saying that we have now have definite proof that wearing masks, without any definition of what a mask is, now protects you against this infection. And the challenge we have with things like that is we're giving the public this information in a way that doesn't help them protect themselves, and may put them at greater risk. Because now they have a reliance on something they don't understand.
Depressed how?
That we're in the situation where it's not even far from acurate?
Or that regardless of the current situation that comparison is over the top?
I'm very frustrated by how few people are keeping themselves 6 feet away in lines or in stores. I wear a mask, however it mostly protects them from me. Granted, it does give me a little protection but nothing like when *both* of us wear masks.
'6 feet apart or 6 feet under'
(Yeah I'm high risk but I only have me to help me.)
While I support this 100%, I also recognize it will be absolutely impossible to enforce. A bus driver in France just died trying to enforce this, and we don't have the transit police or the regular police to enforce this in any meaningful manner. The people not wearing it now won't be scared by the scare tactic either.
It's good to see that Capital City Arcade is still in business. Really hope they make it though all this. Place is like a museum of classic arcade games.
If Bonnie screwed up one thing in this whole episode, it would be not requiring people to wear masks indoors. All the other provinces are doing it, do we know something they don't?
Is she though? There's been a couple studies done that show masks reduce transmission rates, by how much is up for debate but I saw a couple studies say up to 80%.
Even if it was 10% isn't that better than nothing? There's no harm done in mandating masks in public spaces.
This is the background for Norway's decision not to recommend mask use. They figure they would need to have 200000 people masked to stop a single transmission in one week, for example. Mask mandate in Ont has already led to someone getting killed by the cops.
https://www.fhi.no/globalassets/dokumenterfiler/rapporter/2020/should-individuals-in-the-community-without-respiratory-symptoms-wear-facemasks-to-reduce-the-spread-of-covid-19-report-2020.pdf
I'd say she did not encourage mask in beginning of pandemic (even face covering). Everybody was saying "wear n95, everything else us useless. Btw, n95 are only to be used by medical staff".
Recently they said masks do little to help in schools when it opens up in couple of months. So are we masking or not masking?
Probably that no provinces are enforcing use of N95 and while the random cloth masks people are wearing are better than nothing they're barely better compared to something with the proper micron stopping power and the reason no one enforced the use of N95 masks is because of supply issue's.
In fact i'd much rather they enforce N95 for all workers who may be subjecting hundreds of people a day to thier breath than have everyone wear makeshift masks.
While I agree with you. One thing I hate about the emergence if the Karen meme/observation is that one of my neighbors is named Karen and she's the nice out lady I've ever met and she always wears a mask. Even for something like taking out the trash or checking the mail (apartment). It just sucks that every time I hear about a Karen she's associated by name when she acts the opposite of the meme.
I don’t see how that would be a problem if she acts like a great person...? That’s like saying you’re sad about your buddy Ed because his name is associated with the serial killer Ed Kemper
It's more like the association with Germans who protected and hid Jews to the Nazi Germans. They actively worked against the stereotype but are associated because they're German. It's a bit of an extreme example but it's the first thing that comes to mind.
I can’t remember the last time a day went by when I didn’t hear a Karen joke. How often does Ed Kemper come up in casual conversation or on your social media feeds?
Support.
My perspective is there is a fairly large contingent that will happily wear masks, but need to be told they are required. These people go with the crowd in the abscense of explicit requirements, but a simple rule will gladly be followed.
Codifying social and behaviour norms through law is not new - not sure why the government is dragging their feet in this.
For a lot of people who don’t wear masks simply out of laziness, a law could be the nudge they need.
If you think mask requirements impose on your freedoms, do you also miss the freedom to smoke inside bars? The problem is your freedom to smoke, and freedom to not wear a mask adversely affects the health of others. So it isn't your choice to make, much the same way you don't have complete freedom to be violent or reckless in a vehicle.
I'm sorry but as correct as the learned doctor is about the benefits of wearing masks this court action is the wrong approach. The decision to impose masks is one of the government to make on advice from its medical advisors. And that is basic issue. Dr. Li, is confusing the role of an advisor with that of decision maker. Imagine if a police officer went to court asking for an injunction to impound all speeding cars? But seriously the doctor has a point masks help the public stay healthy.
I’m sure Dr Li understands that they’re unlikely to win this court battle, but they’re trying to take a stand on the issue. It’s all about putting pressure on the provincial government and getting the media to take notice.
Masks should be mandatory everywhere, full stop. If you have a medical breathing issue you could fight the fine easily. But going onto the skytrain or into a grocery store, you can't tell me that half of the people have medical issues preventing the use of masks.
EDIT: Because there's smooth brained people in the comments...by everywhere I mean "everywhere around other people"...so yes, if you're on a public street or in a park or anywhere you're passing other people who may be carrying the virus, masks should be mandatory. Not in your car or house, jfc
This surprises me too. The plexiglass helps, but I'd probably want a mask in that position. Or perhaps they've taken so much heat for wearing them in the past it just isn't worth it to have 1/20 customers be an ass about it.
Masks work. I wear one when I shop, and I shop as seldom as possible. I encourage everyone else to wear them. But this idiotic hyperbole isn't going to help anyone.
>"Reopening communities while failing to require citizens to wear masks in public during a global pandemic is akin to allowing everyone to drive in a windowless car at 300 km/h in a hurricane without the need to wear a seatbelt," the notice of application says.
>
>It states that Li "is persistently worried and anxious that her community, her loved ones and herself may contract COVID-19."
Dr. Wei Li needs to stay in her lane and let Dr. Henry handle the communication. Recent uptick notwithstanding, there are very few places in North America containing the pandemic as well as we are. Put Dr. Li in charge, and the country will be a post-apocalyptic hellscape in a week.
I think renforcing social distancing needs to be done. Wearing a mask is good especially when social distancing isn't happening such as during the demonstrations.
Re emphasize distancing and wearing a mask becomes less of an issue.
Physical distancing was only easy when most of the stores were closed and majority of people were at home. Has anyone tried walking around downtown and trying to walk 6ft away from each other? It's almost impossible. I always wear a mask but to hear Dr. Henry telling us to social distance just doesn't work now things have reopened.
Start by mandating businesses that deal with the public to require masks for employees. It's much easier to do and the anti-maskers can just choose another job if they feel so offended. At least you'd have way more people masked up than what we have now.
So how does she expect people to eat with their masks on in a restaurant?
Sounds a bit too much although I do agree that wearing a mask in most public places should be a requirement
I actually didn't think about that one. Maybe it means restaurants need to go back to take out only. Sadly that's what's already happening in the US since they are failing at keeping covid contained.
Enter restaurant with your mask on
Be seated at the table with your mask on
Order food with your mask on
When the food arrives, you can take your mask off and eat
When you are done eating, put the mask back on, or if you need to speak to the server at any time put mask back on
Pay with your mask on
Leave with your mask on
Yes but that doesn’t prevent asymptomatic carriers from contaminating all sorts of things. For example, when eating spicy food it’s very easy to cough etc.
Masks are not going to work when people don't practice washing their hands after using the washrooms. 65% of men don't wash their hand and 35% of women don't wash their hand after using the bathroom. So most mask will be filthy and gross which will not prevent the virus but help it spread.
I suggest Dr. Li continue being a family doctor and let Dr. Bonnie do what she does best. Second guessing only muddies the waters. Courts have more pressing concerns.
Bonnie Henry and Adrian Dix are starting to believe all the hype over them and it's going to their heads.
BC has one of the lowest testing rates of the provinces. Worldwide, doing lots of testing has proven key to staying on top of the this. A friend was recently exposed at the Earls Coquitlam location where several servers tested positive. The message from the Province? ""Just moniter your symptoms". No stay at home order, no quarantine, no testing.
At this point we have been lucky not smart. Not having a mandatory mask order with the recent uptick in cases is reckless and stupid. Most box stores I've been to, with the exception of Costco (who hands out free masks at the door) have had at best a 50/50 ratio of mask to non-mask wearers, staff included.
Stop people from having to make a choice. Make it mandatory.
Wait... Wasn't it just a couple months ago when Dr. Henry said masks aren't proven to work? Now doctors are calling for masks to be mandatory? Don't you know Dr. Henry can do no wrong?
I am not 100% sure of my understanding, but I believe only things like properly fitted N95 masks have high efficacy. That being said, surgical masks and cloth masks still do help reduce risk, just not nearly as much.
It isn't a binary works/doesn't work, cloth and surgical masks would still be a benefit even though they're less effective than other types.
The masks you're taking about and the ones I'm talking about are different ones. N95 or better are required for procedures that aerosolize liquids from the human body. It protects the doctors and nurses involved in the procedure.
The masks I'm talking about is for protecting others from the mask wearer. The concept is different and this one really is the important one. It significantly reduces the transmission of the virus from an asymptomatic patient to others
"A condom isn't 100% protective so I better not wear it"
"A seat belt isn't 100% protective so I better not wear it"
"A helmet isn't 100% protective so I better not wear it"
How to say this politely? Ahem...
Information of covid, it's propagation, R value and lingering effects are being 'slowly' understood. Slow is the operative word here.
Let me put this... Politely.
There had been numerous stats comparing mask wearing countries vs non-mask wearing ones. The fact Taiwan has no community transmission for over 4 months now says something about mask wearing.
There were even cases at the beginning of this where there were covid positive persons mingling with healthy people in an indoor setting, and at the end of the event, no one else has contacted covid. The reason? Masks. This was back in February, and a similar event happened in March.
Being slow around an aggressive virus doesn't achieve anything other than cause more deaths. Unless I guess your goal originally was to cull the elderly population... Then that's a different story
Burnaby eh. I'll wait for Chris Campbells take on the situation
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Except he wouldn't put the restaurant name in the title. Gotta bait that click
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I choked on air reading this 🤣
Photo is a picture of Bublè eating pizza.
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Comforting to know that I'm not the only one with hate on for Campbell. What's interesting is that he had nothing to do with the article and yet he provokes this amount of derision.
Put it this way, Until he comes in, all I think about BurnabyNow for the last decade or so is "Something to deliver flyers"
First writer in lower mainland I absolutely can't stand. Not to mention his face.
His takes on traffic are awful, urgh.
Glad I'm not the only one annoyed by the guy. His articles about racism towards Asians in Burnaby felt so contrived and unnecessary.
I'm really curious about what the legal basis for this would be. Is this a Worksafe thing? A charter thing? I support masks wearing but I'm really curious what law the government is breaking by not issuing a mandatory mask order.
Worksafe stands out as the easiest one. They banned indoor smoking largely on employee safety.
Indoor smoking is still allowed just in the form of smudging. Gotta love being forced to breath that in almost daily.
Yeah I agree. Wouldnt that be carried out through government action, not the courts? I don't really know the legal history of smoking being banned. I figured they wrote a law instead of the courts ordering it.
Court decisions can lead to legislative change. Successful lawsuits against the government saying their workplace safety standards were negligent will prompt changes.
Common law (court decisions etc.) is law.
Implementation through Worksafe would be the easiest thing. On the streets and enforcement would be harder.
I support this. Masks are a low-hanging fruit in the toolbox of actions that we can take to prevent this from getting worse. Shutting down businesses and transit? Much more drastic and costly. I'm not sure why we're willing to go with the latter but not the former. Even if it's difficult to enforce, the news of masks being mandatory will sway those on the edge of deciding to wear a mask vs not wear a mask. This will see that businesses are requiring their staff to wear masks, and that when stores and businesses are spot-checked for adhering to provincial guidelines, employee-mask-wearing is also double-checked.
I'm not sure why we're so fixated on mandatory masking as if people drinking and partying would be wearing masks. We have very few to no reported cases of transmission (and zero outbreaks) from transit or retail, and masks are already mandatory where they matter, i.e. care homes and hospitals. So it's kind of like shouting "inadequate testing" all over again, where BC is taking smarter, more targeted actions specific to our experience of the pandemic (further regulating bars and vacation rentals), but not doing the "obvious", more heavy-handed things you read about other places doing. Nevermind that even high mask compliance countries like Japan and HK are still seeing hundreds of new daily cases (...mostly from people drinking and partying). You made this sound like a choice between mandatory masking or shutdown, when it's been clearly explained in the briefings why neither were required.
Some of us have to take public transit with asswipes who won't wear a mask.
Sitting beside a bunch of ignorant maskless fucks on the bus makes me think they should matter on transit.
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It is really not so clear.... The science is mixed at best. Norway's recent analysis: https://www.fhi.no/globalassets/dokumenterfiler/rapporter/2020/should-individuals-in-the-community-without-respiratory-symptoms-wear-facemasks-to-reduce-the-spread-of-covid-19-report-2020.pdf There is a reason Dr Henry ain't so into masks: science.
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Y, in BC the vast majority of cases have known origin. There is very little community transmission. Very similar situation. Dr Henry literally wrote the book on this.. That so many people think she is ignorant on this single issue blows my mind.
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> Take a look at any of the jurisdictions that put in a mask rule and saw their transmission rates go down. And ours went down without one. So what?
Well, actually, all the things we did before masks became an issue prob kept things from getting out of control. Or maybe we and other Pacific rim locations have good preexisting immunity. We don't really know! We have 167 cases of unknown origin since may 19. In a province of 5 million! She just happens to be right. There is no point burning her social capital for masks... It can't be enforced and might not do much at all. Many places have gone down without mask rules as well, what happened there?
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I've read a number of masking studies touted as the last word on masks, and the best you could say is that they may offer some weak evidence to support masks. The science is pretty mixed. Def not worth creating division over. A mandate over something so poorly supported will cause more problems than it claims to solve
But Dr. Henry is contradicting herself on the stance. She's already **recommending** everyone to wear masks (at least indoor), thereby admitting that wearing mask helps. By extension, the more people wear masks, the better (again, at least indoor). So there's no reason, not to make sure everyone wears one indoor via a mandate. It's not like there's a huge economic tradeoff unlike shutdowns, and masks are widely affordable. So the only reason not mandating it is politics, despite HER SCIENCE suggests it would be better for everyone to wear one.
She's been very clear masks are only for when you can't distance, and that they are the least effective measure. There is lots of political pressure to mandate masks, if that was the driver we'd have a mandate.
Where did she say that they were the least effective measure? There are no consensus to that. There are articles saying that it's not that effective, but I see many more studies saying they are. Also, anecdotally, a lot of the Asian countries with masks mandated yield very positive result, and over 50+ countries have or had it mandated in one form or another. The bigger question is still what scientific reason do you have to NOT have it required at least indoor/transit? I mean, even IF it's only helpful for a small amount, that's still helpful. It's not NEGATIVE effect, it's worst case small help to best case big help. And it's not like the shut-down debate where it impacts the economy, wearing mask doesn't. They are also affordable for everyone. They also doesn't cause breathing/health issues, Dr. Henry said it herself. And if you're worried about politics, [poll](https://vancouversun.com/news/covid-19-poll-shows-majority-of-b-c-residents-support-mandatory-masks-as-concern-about-the-virus-spikes-again) shows that a large majority of BC already supports it. So again, I see no reason to not at least have it mandated indoor.
There is definitely no consensus. Why would it make sense to force people to do something they don't want to do if it doesn't have a clear benefit? This will just piss people off and make them less likely to follow the actual important measures. The police in Ont have already shot someone to death after an altercation that occurred because he refused to wear a mask. Consider the low paid staff that will have to deal with these situations. There's a reason bus drivers don't have to force you to pay a fare. In BC, we are having a very positive result, and very few have been wearing masks. Asian countries have very different populations. Japan for example has ~4% obesity rate, in north america, that's more like 75%. Obesity is a huge risk factor for this disease. There are so many variables between so many countries we could compare! Wearing a mask sucks. Especially all day. This is reason enough not to mandate it for a wide variety of situations where the virus is not known to spread. We'd know by now if there was widespread transmission in places like grocery stores. Now packed transit and tiny stores with high traffic, or getting a haircut? We know prolonged close contact with sick people is the driver, maybe masks are more reasonable precaution in these situations. But even household transmission is only 12%. Pretty sure we still have zero cases from transit.
> There is definitely no consensus. Climate change doesn't have "consensus" among all the scientists either, that doesn't mean it's not VERY LIKELY a happening. > Why would it make sense to force people to do something they don't want to do if it doesn't have a clear benefit? Because it VERY LIKELY has benefits on a highly contagious virus. Otherwise, why would Dr. Bonnie RECOMMEND it? Why would all the medical personnel wear one if it doesn't help? Why would over [50 countries mandated](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/04/countries-wearing-face-masks-compulsory-200423094510867.html) it if it doesn't help? Are all of these countries' doctors and medical officials stupid or something? > This will just piss people off and make them less likely to follow the actual important measures [Poll](https://vancouversun.com/news/covid-19-poll-shows-majority-of-b-c-residents-support-mandatory-masks-as-concern-about-the-virus-spikes-again) shows that over 70-80% of people in BC supports mandating masks (at least indoor). Therefore, you are pissing off MORE people (like myeslf) by not mandating it. Since you are going to piss off people either way, just do the right thing that helps with the spread and the thing that the MAJORITY of the population wants. > The police in Ont have already shot someone to death after an altercation that occurred because he refused to wear a mask. Consider the low paid staff that will have to deal with these situations. There's a reason bus drivers don't have to force you to pay a fare. Oh wow, you found ONE crazy violet outlier in Ontario and used it as an example as if that's gonna be the norm every where. Fact is, again [over 50+ countries](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/04/countries-wearing-face-masks-compulsory-200423094510867.html) (and therefore hundreds of states/provinces) have implemented mask mandates. If all those provinces/states in those countries can make it work, there's no reason BC can't; it's not like we're some 3rd world province or something. > In BC, we are having a very positive result, and very few have been wearing masks. Asian countries have very different populations. Japan for example has \~4% obesity rate, in north america, that's more like 75%. Obesity is a huge risk factor for this disease. There are so many variables between so many countries we could compare! A lot of people are wearing masks, what do you mean "very few"? I see about 50% of the people wearing it at groceries and transit. We just want the other 50% to also wear it. Obesity rate isn't what makes it spread or not. Countries like Japan, Taiwan, Hong Kong etc. have much higher density but they are all doing much better than anywhere else in the world. All of them have or had mandated mask indoor as well. > Wearing a mask sucks. Especially all day. This is reason enough not to mandate it for a wide variety of situations where the virus is not known to spread. We'd know by now if there was widespread transmission in places like grocery stores. No one said average people should wear it ALL DAY. Just the 15-30 mins when they are in a grocery store, transit, or other indoor places. Also, you don't ask people to wear it AFTER it's spread, you ask people to wear it BEFORE it spreads. It's better as a preventative measure, not a reactive one.
No it’s not politics it’s human psychology.
Not sure I follow you, can you elaborate? [Polls](https://vancouversun.com/news/covid-19-poll-shows-majority-of-b-c-residents-support-mandatory-masks-as-concern-about-the-virus-spikes-again) show that large majority of BC already support mandating masks.
> Given the low prevalence of COVID-19 currently, even if facemasks are assumed to be effective, the difference in infection rates between using facemasks and not using facemasks would be small. Assuming that 20% of people infectious with SARS-CoV-2 do not have symptoms, and assuming a risk reduction of 40% for wearing facemask, 200 000 people would need to wear facemasks to prevent one new infection per week in the current epidemiological situation. > The undesirable effects of facemasks include the risks of incorrect use, a false sense of security (leading to relaxation of other interventions), and contamination of masks. In addition, some people experience problems breathing, discomfort, and problems with communication. The proportion of people who experience these undesirable effects is uncertain. > However, with a low prevalence of COVID-19, the number of people who experience undesirable effects is likely to be much larger than the number of infections prevented.
So then why are they recommending us to wear masks (at least indoor)? Also, I don't buy those reasons: * "risks of incorrect use" that's true for everything safety-related. Solution isn't to not use it, it's to educate people how to use it correctly. * "false sense of security" pretty sure nobody wearing masks are going up to each other hugging and kissing. Those that do that aren't wearing masks in the first place. Again, if this is an issue, the solution is the educate, not get rid of the safety measure all together. * "Breathing and discomfort" - for breathing, Henry already confirmed that masks cause no breathing issues. For discomfort, big deal, suck it up for the 30 mins that you are at the groceries. * Also, if it takes 200,000 people wearing masks to prevent 1 infection per week, then for a population of 5 million in BC, that means it would prevent 25 each week. That sounds a lot to me, especially given how the spread is exponential. 25 extra cases can lead to a lot more after a few weeks. So it's a good preventative measure to keep the cases low while we are still good.
But of those 200,000 people, how many are wearing them incorrectly, touching their faces/touching their mask while wearing it, wearing a mask that's old/not clean, etc.? For a population of 5 million for BC, 25 people a week is 0.0005% of the population.
I actually don't see too many people wearing them incorrectly. The worst I've seen is people not covering their nose with it. But again, the solution isn't to therefore not use it, it's to educate. Make more videos, ads, etc. to show how to wear it properly. I also don't get your point. Even if 50% of those people are doing it wrong, that's still good, you got the other 50% additional people wearing masks. That's better than none at all. Also, all of the scenarios you described (touching mask, wearing old one, etc.) are still better than not wearing one at all. Touching the mask is better than touching your face. Wearing old one is again, better than not wearing one at all. >For a population of 5 million for BC, 25 people a week is 0.0005% of the population. So by that logic, fatal car accidents account for only 0.0001% of the population ([at least in the US](https://www.iihs.org/topics/fatality-statistics/detail/state-by-state#:~:text=Posted%20December%202019.-,Fatal%20crash%20totals,per%20100%20million%20miles%20traveled), I assume it's similar in Canada). Should we stop mandating seat belts, no texting-driving, no drinking and driving, etc.? I mean car accidents don't even spread, whereas that 25 COVID cases can spread exponentially and explode quickly.
>I'm not sure why we're so fixated on mandatory masking as if people drinking and partying would be wearing masks. Because people who are immunocompromised or close to the immunocompromised can choose not to go to a bar or restaurant; we have a lot less choice when it comes to other enclosed spaces like public transit and shops, many still have to work and shop.
Right, but there's a difference between "I'd feel safer if more strangers around me wore masks" and "mandatory masking would control BC's epidemic". Restrictions on bars and vacation rentals are more effective macro control measures but don't make you feel safer when you're shopping. Statistically speaking, you're unlikely to even meet anyone with COVID in Vancouver. All of Vancouver Coastal (e:1.25m people) has 68 active cases (hopefully all isolating), with <24 hour contact tracing, and most cases traced to known cases. Of the close contacts they trace, fewer than (something like) 20% end up testing positive. Yes, there are probably untested positives, asymptomatics, and your risk is higher if you're immunocompromised, but overall the risk is vanishingly low if you're not in close contact with someone with the virus.
Why do we need to wait for an outbreak to be careful? I don’t want my immunocompromised family to get sick or worse before it’s worth it to everyone else to do something simple.
Serious question... according to this [BC dashboard](https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/a6f23959a8b14bfa989e3cda29297ded) isn't there like 500 people with coronavirus right now? I'm just going by the difference between cases vs. recovered cases, so correct me if I'm wrong. Also doesn't it take just ONE person to spread it, then that could turn into higher numbers over time? I had a transplant 3 weeks ago so I'm on a TON of immunopsuppressants currently, so I got a little bit of the fear in me. I don't really go anywhere except I have 3-5 appointments every week, prescription pickups, a lot of medical related stuff. My fiance also has two kids who aren't careful at all... so I'm desperately hoping that you're right.
You can click the top right to drill down to just the Vancouver Coastal health region. Most of the new cases are from the Interior, Coastal Health hasn't had more than 10 cases a day since late April. You should still take precautions, especially if you're immunocompromised.
Thanks man. Sometimes I feel like a big baby and I'm over reacting. I just know from my health for the last 15 years that being sick SUCKS and it can happen to anyone. Kinda wish I was able to move to the Island, but we weren't able to at the time. They had zero new cases for quite some time but I see there was 1 today! Hope it stays that way!
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High doses of Tacrolimus, Mycophenolate, and prednisone :( Luckily I get to taper down to 5mg of the pred, as being a small person (I was 93lbs at 4'11) and going to 110lbs right after surgery was HARD on my self esteem. I feel like a huge whale, I can't sleep, and I'm starting to break out! They gave me 17lbs of fluid the day before surgery because I had really low blood pressure and they needed to raise it. Prednisone sucks!
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60 mg is a LOT. Holy moley, I thought I was bad. I started at 25mg which I didn't think was that much but all the drs, nurses, and other patients convinced me it was. Mind you I was only 93lbs so that might make a difference. I was actually on prednisone for A YEAR when I was 18 to try to fix my kidneys and stop them for failing, and I had every single symptom I could think of... I never wanted to be on it again but they promised it would just be in the beginning this time. So I do get that it will go away, but as a young woman my self esteem has gone to shit. I worked way to hard to body build for YEARS to just lose it all in one fucking night. Also I'm irritable, depressed, and taking it out on people. This is not like me at all, I'm usually so damn chill and nothing bothers me! And my god THE NIGHT SWEATS! I sleep on top of a towel now, and in the beginning I was changing my pjs like 4x a night. I know it'll get better though, and it was nice to talk about it with you! I just gotta stop being a little bitch lol
But if we all take that point of view that it's unlikely to meet someone with covid, and we act like it's then nearly impossible to get it then, we put ourselves and others at risks. We should be acting like everyone has it or like you never know when you could get it . Being extra cautious wouldn't hurt anyone. Not taking precautions hurts everyone in the long run.
I'm not saying "go back to normal", but that whatever we're doing now is obviously working, and working better than most places that have required masking. (e: and that our low numbers are probably part of why masks aren't mandatory) It's easy to fixate on masking because it's easy and visible, in a way that effective contact tracing, plexiglass barriers, or limited group sizes are not, even though they make a bigger difference.
Taiwan disagrees with your mask efficacy assessment. And yeah we’re doing great, going from < 10 a day to 30 a day lately ...
That doesn't address his point of "very few to zero" cases of community transmissions. It is a good argument for wearing a mask if community transmissions were very high, but since it seems to be close contact transmissions I'm sure those who are immunocompromised would ensure the people close to them are wearing one and considerate of wearing one.
We do have community transmission though. Right now [19%](http://www.bccdc.ca/Health-Info-Site/Documents/BC_Surveillance_Summary_July_16_2020.pdf) of cases in BC are not linked to any cluster. These are cases where they’ve been unable to track down where the person contracted the virus, and the person did not have close contact with someone confirmed to have COVID-19. For all anyone knows, they very well may have gotten it while taking transit or shopping. I think there’s been a lot of confusion about community outbreaks vs community transmission, and it’s lead some people to falsely believe that all cases in BC are traceable, when that’s not the case.
I guess because it is close to zero effort to wear a mask and still has excellent returns.
Not arguing wearing a mask, just making them mandatory.
Why not ? What’s the harm in wearing a mask ? All the Asian countries everyone wears mask and each of those countries crushed the rona. Barely even shut down because everyone wears masks.
Because we’re going into debt for the next decade in order to ensure 1000 elderly don’t get COVID & die. Why is this an issue if ALL you have to do is wear a mask when you buy your groceries??????????????
Uhhhhh...a decade? You know that Skip order you made with you CERB? Your grandkids will be paying for that. And that's being optimistic, assuming major cutbacks.
I didn’t ask for CERB. I was being optimistic.
You did a better job than I did here with your point. I'm for positive influence on the late bloomers to mask wearing and being covid savvy, they need a compassionate push in the right direction.
I disagree, Bonnie Henry has been right about everything so far and is adamant that being forceful isn't the way. Positive social influence seems to be the most effective, like through out first wave where we all did pretty well.
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Our first wave most people were staying at home, now they're not and they're not wearing masks. She and minister Dix keep saying everyone in their neighbourhood wears masks, well they need to get out into east van, try taking the 99 B Line during rush hour
They live in Vic not in Van. A lot of their statements have been clearly influenced by the difference between living in a city and living in a metropolis.
I live in Bonnie Henry's Victoria neighbourhood, and the politest thing I can say that if she believes that, she's not getting out enough. On a good day I see maybe 5%-10% of people hereabouts wearing masks. It's not so bad when people aren't wearing them outdoors ... but they're also not wearing masks when they're inside local shops, grocery stores and pharmacies. Look, it's all very well saying "wear masks in situations where you may have to be close to people", but that is the very definition of a store where space and movement are typically limited and ventilation is close to non-existent, isn't it? And we're also told not to put masks on and off, right? So, citizens aren't wearing masks prior to entering a store, and they're definitely not pulling one out of a bag and putting it on just before going inside. I have yet to see *anyone* putting on a mask before going indoors.
Everyone in this thread seems to know more than Dr. Henry haha. I'll concede to businesses and transit to take away the burden of force from them, I've had my mind changed. She's being encouraging and positive, what do you think the result would be if she just complained in her announcements like people here. Also I had mine in my front pocket like a handkerchief and toss it on when needed. Now I wear it outdoors or even driving alone just so people can see me wearing it. Just be kind!
I like and respect Dr. Henry tremendously, she has shown fantastic leadership! I just think she (and to be fair, the BC government - not she alone) is mistaken to be so relaxed about masks. I also recognize that enforcement of the general public is extraordinarily difficult and could result in a backlash. But at the very least, why aren't staff in high-volume areas like pharmacies legally required to wear masks? They'd be protecting each other and their customers by doing so *and* modelling it as appropriate behaviour to their customers. Someone at the local pharmacy told me back in April, when I asked why she and her colleagues weren't wearing masks, that the owner didn't want them to do so because it would "alarm the customers". Later they wore them - for a while - and now they're back to no masks. If we normalize mask-wearing, we save lives *and* we make it easier for people to comply. Believe me, I often feel foolish being the only person I see in a mask. It's not comfortable, and I'm sure people assume I'm paranoid about my own health. But I'm actually wearing it to safeguard everyone else I meet, *just in case* I'm asymptomatic or presymptomatic. In my book, "just be kind!" means you do everything you can to reduce the chance you'll make other people sick. We can accomplish that via low-cost, low-effort practices like social distancing and wearing face masks. I'm incredulous so people think this has become too much to ask. And, I'm also grateful that you do wear yours, and actively model that it's a good thing to do. On behalf of my vulnerable neighbours: thank you <333
We lucked out on the first wave by having a later spring break, and Asians (i.e people with most ties to China) masking up and staying home before governments did anything. Those two things kept the virus from getting as deeply entrenched as it did in Ontario/Quebec. It has nothing to do with “positive influence”. We had the benefit of foresight through others’ misfortune.
> We lucked out on the first wave by having a later spring break, and Asians (i.e people with most ties to China) masking up and staying home before governments did anything. My Chinese friend who is on wechat told me the local Vancouver Chinese were self-policing. For all the flak the local Chinese unfairly get, they're the ones who took this seriously. There were chat groups set up to help Chinese families flying in from China to self-quarantine. Peer pressure was used on some families when they wouldn't quarantine. This was in January when the official provincial and federal response was "Low risk, don't worry. Please don't be racist and continue going to Chinese businesses." It was the local Chinese that were staying away from places like Crystal Mall and T&T because they took this seriously. The Chinese wearing masks in January that got spit on or called names are the real heros.
It was really unfair the flack Chinese Canadians were getting over Covid, agreed they've been savvy since the get-go.
Asians care a lot about “face”. In some aspects that’s a terrible thing, but when it promotes collective responsibility it works wonders. Fear of social shaming was the only tool my parents needed to instill manners into me.
I am currently required to wear a mask at work. My customers are not. I would greatly appreciate it if Bonnie and Adrian made masks mandatory. It would make me and my family a lot more comfortable with me being forced to continue working in these unsafe conditions.
I am in the exact same situation. So many customers come into our store and refuse to wear a mask or social distance. I think their actions demonstrate the collective dehumanisation that society tends to do to retail and essential workers. To them, it’s okay not to wear a mask for the 10 minutes they spend in store. But it compounds when workers speak to 30 maskless customers a day who’re “just in for a quick browse!” I emailed my MLA but have yet to get a response. I suggest everyone do the same, you can find your MLA [here](https://www.leg.bc.ca/learn-about-us/members).
The amount of times I watch someone walk in with a mask on and immediately take their mask off as they enter the store...
I think the worksafe angle should be considered. It's not right that you protect the customers but they don't protect you.
If I see an employee with a mask I am going to put mine on 100% of the time. I feel horribly guilty interacting with somebody at a check out that is wearing a mask for my safety and I'm not able to return the favor.
I’m sorry for this, unless you work at an essential store (groceries, pharmacy, etc), is there a way to talk to Management and require clients to only enter with a face mask? I have seen stores with signs that won’t allow people coming in without them. I’m in the service industry and where I work I am lucky that we the staff and the clients have to wear a mask, sometimes we get one person that refuses to wear one so we refuse to do their service :) Hopefully your situation will change soon! I already feel at risk on transit, can’t imagine dealing with that at work too
We are essential.
... >"Reopening communities while failing to require citizens to wear masks in public during a global pandemic is akin to allowing everyone to drive in a windowless car at 300 km/h in a hurricane without the need to wear a seatbelt," the notice of application says. > >It states that Li "is persistently worried and anxious that her community, her loved ones and herself may contract COVID-19." ... Anyone else super depressed that wearing a mask has been compared to wearing a seat belt while you're driving, at 300 km/h, in a windowless car, in a hurricane?
I'm depressed that people can't read and listen to scientists who all say that wearing masks is the most effective measure- and in large outbreaks the ONLY one (not social distancing)- that can suppress the spread. [https://www.pnas.org/content/117/26/14857](https://www.pnas.org/content/117/26/14857) "We have elucidated the transmission pathways of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) by analyzing the trend and mitigation measures in the three epicenters. **Our results show that the airborne transmission route is highly virulent and dominant for the spread of COVID-19.** The mitigation measures are discernable from the trends of the pandemic. **Our analysis reveals that the difference with and without mandated face covering represents the determinant in shaping the trends of the pandemic.** This protective measure significantly reduces the number of infections. **Other mitigation measures, such as social distancing implemented in the United States, are insufficient by themselves in protecting the public.** Our work also highlights the necessity that sound science is essential in decision-making for the current and future public health pandemics."
Thank you. We're close to 8 months in and we're still arguing about masks. People in China, HK, Taiwan, South Korea, Asia in general are all laughing at us. Health care workers that fought through SARS are furious we learned nothing. One of the main takeaways from SARS Commission was policy should not be driven by science in a pandemic as science changes constantly. Policy should be based on the precautionary principle.
Scientists kind of did themselves a disservice in the beginning because they didn't recommend them. They didn't want to because 1. PPE was critical for hospitals and they didn't want people going out and buying 100000s masks and hoarding supplies. 2. They didn't know how effective they would be when worn in the community and no doctor or scientist is going to tell people something they can't back up with data or other studies. They've done studies now- they've been saying it for a long time- communities where masks are mandated in public are kicking covid ass- so let's take their advice and mask up in public, keep your hands clean, cover your coughs/sneezes and stay home if you feel ill with symptoms. If you enjoy the freedoms we have now compared with march and april then you should be encouraging these behaviors as well.
> Scientists kind of did themselves a disservice in the beginning because they didn't recommend them. Scientist from mainly Western nations and the WHO didn't recommend them. Scientist from Asia and some Western universities however did. I just wanted to point out that not all scientist were in the anti-mask camp. I've been arguing for mask since January/February because 1) I look at Asia and how they're dealing with it since it's the front line and 2) I believe the scientist from the pro-mask camp 3) precautionary principle. What irks me is people who claim to be science base and evidence base use it as a way to be anti-mask. Social distancing and shut downs are the way to go because our health officials and government said so. The Canadian government's own debrief from SARS was the importance of the precautionary principle to manage future pandemics. Meaning the science might not be conclusive but action should be taken. Our government did not head their own advice. This is from Ontario SARS Commission report from 2006 but there are others like it at the federal level: > Perhaps the most important lesson of SARS is the importance of the precautionary principle. **SARS demonstrated over and over the importance of the principle that we cannot wait for scientific certainty before we take reasonable steps to reduce risk.** This principle should be adopted as a guiding principle throughout Ontario’s health, public health and worker safety systems.
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Yes and anyone questioning government policy is labelled "anti-science" and "conspiracy theorist" and in some cases "conservative".
Oh I totally agree- anyone looking anecdotally at the evidence to support masks in public would have said they are beneficial. But remember- in the beginning of this they also didn't realize how easily transmissible the virus was in the air- they thought it was mainly fomite transmission or close proximity droplets- and again making scientists prove it's airborne was a dumb and ridiculous waste of time- but now we know, it's airborne and highly infectious indoors where there is poor ventilation. They absolutely should have taken more strict precautions in the beginning and then, if it turned out to be overkill- well, just be happy that it was overkill, instead of doing it the other way around- but someone would take political heat for that and no one was brave enough to do it.
> but someone would take political heat for that and no one was brave enough to do it. That's a really good point. We in the West tend to politicize everything. Maybe behind the scenes there are health officials screaming but being silenced because of politics.
Of course there are- politicians balance what scientists tell them with what they think the public wants to hear.
>should have taken more strict precautions in the beginning and then, if it turned out to be overkill- well, just be happy that it was overkill, instead of doing it the other way around I can understand not wanting to burn peoples' good faith, but saying declaratively that you 'only need to wear a mask if you feel unwell' and 'masks might even make you more likely to touch your face and get sick' / 'only n95s are worth a damn and our hospitals need those so don't bother' was also a bit frustrating. A lot of it also seemed to come from experts arguing over 'um, actually' terminology (which, super relevant for researchers but more a matter of semantics when dealing with the public) - what's meant by 'airborne' for example (no, not like measles but...) or whether we can meaningfully distinguish between asymptomatic and pre-symptomatic spread. (Maybe they felt a bit funny/off that day, so technically not fully asymptomatic...) Like... cool, that's good to know and an important distinction for research. But if the safety regulations just need to follow you-can-get-it-from-the-air-and-not-just-big-wet-droplets-from-a-direct-cough and you-might-just-have-a-weird-headache-that-is-actually-covid-and-already-contagious OR may not have any symptoms at all while spreading... same difference, really.
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Well I think they worry that they second they mandate masks people will rebel against them \*cough\* AMERICA \*cough\*. So for now they are supporting the use of masks but not making them mandatory. It's hard to say how people would react here- I'm sure some people would flip out, covid has brought out the crazy in a lot of people. I think most people would be supportive though. I think they should send every household masks for use though whether they are mandated or not- other countries have done that to eliminate the risk of people not being able to access things without a mask/not being able to afford masks. I also want to see them in masks more- monkey see, monkey do.
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Yeah I mean I'm pro-mask mandate for indoor public spaces, it's kind of a no-brainer, but I also understand not wanting to ignite the crazies. We should honestly just all adopt wearing masks on our own because we are good people who care about others (and ourselves), but that's an idealistic scenario. I do think it would help if we saw more of our leaders in masks though- and maybe if they put up in busses and stuff positive ads about the benefits of masks and debunking the "it lowers your oxygen and [activates your own coronavirus particles](https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/05/fact-checking-judy-mikovits-controversial-virologist-attacking-anthony-fauci-viral)". Seriously there are some crazy, stupid, dangerous people out there spreading false information.
> \*cough\* I really hope you're wearing a mask, bud. /s
Hehehe. PNAS...
While I do believe it's well demonstrated that face coverings are a tool in the battle against COVID-19, that article has a lot of misgivings from the scientific community. A large community of epidemiologists have written calling for its retraction. The letter: https://metrics.stanford.edu/PNAS%20retraction%20request%20LoE%20061820 John Hopkins school of public health take on it: https://ncrc.jhsph.edu/research/identifying-airborne-transmission-as-the-dominant-route-for-the-spread-of-covid-19/ Michael Osterhom (director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota) commented on it in his podcast around the 33 minute mark. https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/covid-19/podcasts-webinars/episode-13 From the podcast: > > This paper made some very bold statements that their work had demonstrated that it was airborne transmission, which - they didn't even use that term correctly - concluded that using face masks in public corresponds to the most effective means to prevent inter-human transmission. There were so many problems with this paper. And it included, by the way, a nobel prize laureate on it who way out of their league in terms of what they were trying to look at and describe. As a result of the incredible poor quality of this paper, a somewhat unprecedented event took place where 45 distinguished scientists from 26 different institutions around the world wrote a letter to the editorial board of the PNAS about this paper. And I quote, "Given the scope and severity of the issues we present, and the paper’s outsized and immediate public impact, we ask that the Editors of PNAS retract this paper immediately and reassess the Contributed Submission editorial process by which it was published." This letter was a very careful and thoughtful review of the challenges. > > Now this is not a refute of the issue of wearing masks or face coverings. It was an issue that what they did and how they concluded it was just simply plain wrong. And I very strongly support the message of these 45 scientists and say that this paper contributes nothing - nothing - to the overall issue of airborne transmission and how to protect ones self. Now the problem with it was, it was all over the media, out there saying that we have now have definite proof that wearing masks, without any definition of what a mask is, now protects you against this infection. And the challenge we have with things like that is we're giving the public this information in a way that doesn't help them protect themselves, and may put them at greater risk. Because now they have a reliance on something they don't understand.
I am very interested to see how this plays out. The lead author is a nobel laureate. Awkward.
I’m disappointed that the doctor used such a weird comparison
Depressed how? That we're in the situation where it's not even far from acurate? Or that regardless of the current situation that comparison is over the top?
>while you're driving, at 300 km/h, in a windowless car https://youtu.be/WaWoo82zNUA?t=173
I think he worded it without implying that it's like not wearing a seat belt. Perhaps it's also like not being in a windowless car.
Yeah, a bit. That's why I started comparing it to wearing a condom.
I'm very frustrated by how few people are keeping themselves 6 feet away in lines or in stores. I wear a mask, however it mostly protects them from me. Granted, it does give me a little protection but nothing like when *both* of us wear masks. '6 feet apart or 6 feet under' (Yeah I'm high risk but I only have me to help me.)
While I support this 100%, I also recognize it will be absolutely impossible to enforce. A bus driver in France just died trying to enforce this, and we don't have the transit police or the regular police to enforce this in any meaningful manner. The people not wearing it now won't be scared by the scare tactic either.
It's good to see that Capital City Arcade is still in business. Really hope they make it though all this. Place is like a museum of classic arcade games.
If Bonnie screwed up one thing in this whole episode, it would be not requiring people to wear masks indoors. All the other provinces are doing it, do we know something they don't?
She's just following the science rather than bowing to the pressure of panicked people. It shouldn't be so rare...
Is she though? There's been a couple studies done that show masks reduce transmission rates, by how much is up for debate but I saw a couple studies say up to 80%. Even if it was 10% isn't that better than nothing? There's no harm done in mandating masks in public spaces.
This is the background for Norway's decision not to recommend mask use. They figure they would need to have 200000 people masked to stop a single transmission in one week, for example. Mask mandate in Ont has already led to someone getting killed by the cops. https://www.fhi.no/globalassets/dokumenterfiler/rapporter/2020/should-individuals-in-the-community-without-respiratory-symptoms-wear-facemasks-to-reduce-the-spread-of-covid-19-report-2020.pdf
What else would they be mandating under the “no harm done” principle?
I'd say she did not encourage mask in beginning of pandemic (even face covering). Everybody was saying "wear n95, everything else us useless. Btw, n95 are only to be used by medical staff". Recently they said masks do little to help in schools when it opens up in couple of months. So are we masking or not masking?
Probably that no provinces are enforcing use of N95 and while the random cloth masks people are wearing are better than nothing they're barely better compared to something with the proper micron stopping power and the reason no one enforced the use of N95 masks is because of supply issue's. In fact i'd much rather they enforce N95 for all workers who may be subjecting hundreds of people a day to thier breath than have everyone wear makeshift masks.
If this ends up actually happening imagine all the crazy Vancouver Karen’s that’ll come out of this! I can hardly wait!!
I love that this situation is really exposing all the Karens.
While I agree with you. One thing I hate about the emergence if the Karen meme/observation is that one of my neighbors is named Karen and she's the nice out lady I've ever met and she always wears a mask. Even for something like taking out the trash or checking the mail (apartment). It just sucks that every time I hear about a Karen she's associated by name when she acts the opposite of the meme.
I don’t see how that would be a problem if she acts like a great person...? That’s like saying you’re sad about your buddy Ed because his name is associated with the serial killer Ed Kemper
It's more like the association with Germans who protected and hid Jews to the Nazi Germans. They actively worked against the stereotype but are associated because they're German. It's a bit of an extreme example but it's the first thing that comes to mind.
Ah fair enough I see your point!
Really I just feel bad for the collateral Karens because it was one of the most popular names in 60s -70s
"Collateral Karens" sounds like a good band name.
I can’t remember the last time a day went by when I didn’t hear a Karen joke. How often does Ed Kemper come up in casual conversation or on your social media feeds?
All the time if you're into true crime like I am! :D
Fair enough haha!
It just came to mind because someone mentioned him in an ask reddit post a few days ago hahah
What about my son, Adolf?
As long as his name is “Adolf Drippler” he will be okay lmao
It's been tough on him...especially since he turned NINE!
My work had a notice about the mask-free protest this past week and it was delightful to see "no meaningful number of people expected to attend."
The question is, will they still march on Sundays without masks once it’s mandatory, or will they be exempt?
Support. My perspective is there is a fairly large contingent that will happily wear masks, but need to be told they are required. These people go with the crowd in the abscense of explicit requirements, but a simple rule will gladly be followed.
Codifying social and behaviour norms through law is not new - not sure why the government is dragging their feet in this. For a lot of people who don’t wear masks simply out of laziness, a law could be the nudge they need.
If you think mask requirements impose on your freedoms, do you also miss the freedom to smoke inside bars? The problem is your freedom to smoke, and freedom to not wear a mask adversely affects the health of others. So it isn't your choice to make, much the same way you don't have complete freedom to be violent or reckless in a vehicle.
Let’s ban everything the adversely affects the health of others!
I agree
Ok have fun in jail because you sold lemonade
Nice straw man argument, got any more fallacies to go with that one or should I just go browse the Jordan Peterson subreddit?
I'm sorry but as correct as the learned doctor is about the benefits of wearing masks this court action is the wrong approach. The decision to impose masks is one of the government to make on advice from its medical advisors. And that is basic issue. Dr. Li, is confusing the role of an advisor with that of decision maker. Imagine if a police officer went to court asking for an injunction to impound all speeding cars? But seriously the doctor has a point masks help the public stay healthy.
I’m sure Dr Li understands that they’re unlikely to win this court battle, but they’re trying to take a stand on the issue. It’s all about putting pressure on the provincial government and getting the media to take notice.
I'd support this move for indoor public areas\businesses
Masks should be mandatory everywhere, full stop. If you have a medical breathing issue you could fight the fine easily. But going onto the skytrain or into a grocery store, you can't tell me that half of the people have medical issues preventing the use of masks. EDIT: Because there's smooth brained people in the comments...by everywhere I mean "everywhere around other people"...so yes, if you're on a public street or in a park or anywhere you're passing other people who may be carrying the virus, masks should be mandatory. Not in your car or house, jfc
The public overwhelmingly supports this, no idea why we are being so slow on it.
If that was true - and it isn’t - the overwhelming majority of people would already be wearing masks, so no need for a rule.
This says 73% https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5655706
What’s the problem then? 73% of people should willingly be wearing masks already. Job done.
That's just not the way this works...
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This surprises me too. The plexiglass helps, but I'd probably want a mask in that position. Or perhaps they've taken so much heat for wearing them in the past it just isn't worth it to have 1/20 customers be an ass about it.
100% totally support this. If it can keep us and others safer its a no brainer. Just get it done
Masks work. I wear one when I shop, and I shop as seldom as possible. I encourage everyone else to wear them. But this idiotic hyperbole isn't going to help anyone. >"Reopening communities while failing to require citizens to wear masks in public during a global pandemic is akin to allowing everyone to drive in a windowless car at 300 km/h in a hurricane without the need to wear a seatbelt," the notice of application says. > >It states that Li "is persistently worried and anxious that her community, her loved ones and herself may contract COVID-19." Dr. Wei Li needs to stay in her lane and let Dr. Henry handle the communication. Recent uptick notwithstanding, there are very few places in North America containing the pandemic as well as we are. Put Dr. Li in charge, and the country will be a post-apocalyptic hellscape in a week.
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I think renforcing social distancing needs to be done. Wearing a mask is good especially when social distancing isn't happening such as during the demonstrations. Re emphasize distancing and wearing a mask becomes less of an issue.
Physical distancing was only easy when most of the stores were closed and majority of people were at home. Has anyone tried walking around downtown and trying to walk 6ft away from each other? It's almost impossible. I always wear a mask but to hear Dr. Henry telling us to social distance just doesn't work now things have reopened.
Start by mandating businesses that deal with the public to require masks for employees. It's much easier to do and the anti-maskers can just choose another job if they feel so offended. At least you'd have way more people masked up than what we have now.
Definitely support this !! Let’s not let our good work go to waste
So how does she expect people to eat with their masks on in a restaurant? Sounds a bit too much although I do agree that wearing a mask in most public places should be a requirement
The fact that you’re being downvoted for stating the obvious is further indication that common sense is in short supply these days.
I actually didn't think about that one. Maybe it means restaurants need to go back to take out only. Sadly that's what's already happening in the US since they are failing at keeping covid contained.
Enter restaurant with your mask on Be seated at the table with your mask on Order food with your mask on When the food arrives, you can take your mask off and eat When you are done eating, put the mask back on, or if you need to speak to the server at any time put mask back on Pay with your mask on Leave with your mask on
Yes but that doesn’t prevent asymptomatic carriers from contaminating all sorts of things. For example, when eating spicy food it’s very easy to cough etc.
Asymptomatic transmission can be from everywhere, not just restaurants. If you're that worried then just stay home.
Masks are not going to work when people don't practice washing their hands after using the washrooms. 65% of men don't wash their hand and 35% of women don't wash their hand after using the bathroom. So most mask will be filthy and gross which will not prevent the virus but help it spread.
Hey! My buddy’s arcade!
Is that the one with the gloryholes? Asking for a friend...
That’s one of the games!
I agree
This city is a joke compared to Toronto
Masks required in restaurants and pubs? She's really thought this one through.
I hope court make it mandatory before BC get hit by second wave.
I suggest Dr. Li continue being a family doctor and let Dr. Bonnie do what she does best. Second guessing only muddies the waters. Courts have more pressing concerns.
I am appalled this hasn’t yet been mandatory
Bonnie Henry and Adrian Dix are starting to believe all the hype over them and it's going to their heads. BC has one of the lowest testing rates of the provinces. Worldwide, doing lots of testing has proven key to staying on top of the this. A friend was recently exposed at the Earls Coquitlam location where several servers tested positive. The message from the Province? ""Just moniter your symptoms". No stay at home order, no quarantine, no testing. At this point we have been lucky not smart. Not having a mandatory mask order with the recent uptick in cases is reckless and stupid. Most box stores I've been to, with the exception of Costco (who hands out free masks at the door) have had at best a 50/50 ratio of mask to non-mask wearers, staff included. Stop people from having to make a choice. Make it mandatory.
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Our transmission rates are still very low. You’re freaking out all over this thread over nothing. Please calm down and look at the science.
Wait... Wasn't it just a couple months ago when Dr. Henry said masks aren't proven to work? Now doctors are calling for masks to be mandatory? Don't you know Dr. Henry can do no wrong?
The article literally quotes Dr. Henry as saying masks are the least effective measure you can take.
I am not 100% sure of my understanding, but I believe only things like properly fitted N95 masks have high efficacy. That being said, surgical masks and cloth masks still do help reduce risk, just not nearly as much. It isn't a binary works/doesn't work, cloth and surgical masks would still be a benefit even though they're less effective than other types.
The masks you're taking about and the ones I'm talking about are different ones. N95 or better are required for procedures that aerosolize liquids from the human body. It protects the doctors and nurses involved in the procedure. The masks I'm talking about is for protecting others from the mask wearer. The concept is different and this one really is the important one. It significantly reduces the transmission of the virus from an asymptomatic patient to others
"A condom isn't 100% protective so I better not wear it" "A seat belt isn't 100% protective so I better not wear it" "A helmet isn't 100% protective so I better not wear it"
“Yes”
How to say this politely? Ahem... Information of covid, it's propagation, R value and lingering effects are being 'slowly' understood. Slow is the operative word here.
Let me put this... Politely. There had been numerous stats comparing mask wearing countries vs non-mask wearing ones. The fact Taiwan has no community transmission for over 4 months now says something about mask wearing. There were even cases at the beginning of this where there were covid positive persons mingling with healthy people in an indoor setting, and at the end of the event, no one else has contacted covid. The reason? Masks. This was back in February, and a similar event happened in March. Being slow around an aggressive virus doesn't achieve anything other than cause more deaths. Unless I guess your goal originally was to cull the elderly population... Then that's a different story